Markus Rogan, PsyD; Experiential Performance Psychology

This podcast features an interview with Dr. Markus Rogan, a former Olympic gold medalist who transitioned into the field of behavioral health and mental health counseling. The discussion covers Dr. Rogan's unorthodox personal journey, including his family's history and his own conversion to Judaism.

Key topics discussed include:

• Dr. Rogan's shift from elite athletics to mental health work, and how he found meaning and fulfillment in helping others rather than pursuing individual athletic glory.
• The challenges athletes face in transitioning to post-athletic careers and finding a sense of identity and purpose.
• The concept of "enough" and how many people struggle with a lack of intrinsic self-worth and an excessive focus on external validation.
• Dr. Rogan's unique therapeutic approach that blurs the lines between therapist and patient, with the goal of creating a more authentic, mutual exchange.
• Simple breathing techniques that Dr. Rogan recommends for regulating anxiety and stress.

Overall, this podcast provides a thoughtful and personal exploration of finding meaning, authenticity, and mental/emotional wellness, drawing on Dr. Rogan's diverse life experiences.

Follow JD at JDKalmenson.com

Transcript

00:00:01:01 - 00:00:25:17
JD Kalmenson
I'm so glad to be sitting here today with a truly unusual and remarkable individual, Dr. Markus Rogan. His background we're going to hear a little bit about is coming from the athletic world, a gold star, winner of the Olympics and traversed into helping and saving lives through behavioral health. And without further ado, I would love to hear a little bit.

00:00:25:19 - 00:00:47:01
JD Kalmenson
First of all, thank you so much for being with us today and for joining us at the conference. We just came from a panel and you were sharing so poignantly and so authentically, and it was actually very refreshing when people speak with actually on their mind when they mean what they say. But let's go back to the beginning for a little bit, because you have a little bit of an unorthodox entry into the field.

00:00:47:03 - 00:00:50:12
Markus Rogan
Literally. I'm an unorthodox Jew.

00:00:50:14 - 00:01:13:10
JD Kalmenson
Very good. Exactly. You know, interestingly enough, I'm not a big believer labels. You know, we tend to label people so much today. Right. You're this type of person. You're that type of person and this type of religion, that type of sect. But so. Yes. So. But you. You were born in Austria. And then came here as a child.

00:01:13:12 - 00:01:15:03
JD Kalmenson
Also tells the story.

00:01:15:03 - 00:01:36:19
Markus Rogan
About the Ottomans. Yeah. I am the grandchild of Nazis. As a child, I was not born Jewish. Wow. Okay. Is as a child. My grandmother flat out said we were at a country country fair in her small village in Austria.

00:01:36:21 - 00:01:37:19
JD Kalmenson
Was the name of the village.

00:01:38:01 - 00:01:38:20
Markus Rogan
Got to know.

00:01:38:20 - 00:01:41:07
JD Kalmenson
Got to know how far from Vienna.

00:01:41:08 - 00:01:41:23
Markus Rogan
You know.

00:01:42:01 - 00:01:44:04
JD Kalmenson
Quite a distance. 3 hours. Okay.

00:01:44:06 - 00:01:50:02
Markus Rogan
And. And she said she felt the cake was too expensive.

00:01:50:04 - 00:01:51:05
JD Kalmenson
And the cake?

00:01:51:05 - 00:02:17:14
Markus Rogan
The cake. She went to the vendor and said, Are you fucking Jewish to charge that much? Wow. She had an orange pass and she was proud of it. And then, you know, my my mother was horrified by this. And and she she became a psychiatrist for Jewish professionals, but she was not born Jewish. She is not Jewish.

00:02:17:15 - 00:02:18:01
JD Kalmenson
Right.

00:02:18:02 - 00:02:20:02
Markus Rogan
I fell in love with a Jewish girl.

00:02:20:04 - 00:02:20:19
JD Kalmenson
Well, she.

00:02:20:19 - 00:02:33:07
Markus Rogan
Said, I can never marry you. Why? And I said, what if I become Jewish? And I went through the process. It's. It's painful. It's beautiful. It's scary. Yeah, it's really scary.

00:02:33:07 - 00:02:33:19
JD Kalmenson
Yes.

00:02:34:00 - 00:03:01:07
Markus Rogan
And now I have, like, so you can't, like, you know, the Orthodox, right? Me fully Jewish, right? But my boys are fully Jewish, right? That was. But I do see, I am an Orthodox. I am. I want to become what I really want to become as a bridge builder. Wow. Right now, I'm really good at getting someone wants to kill themselves off a bridge.

00:03:01:09 - 00:03:18:02
Markus Rogan
That's what I can really do. Because I can imagine. I can feel. I can understand the psychological pain. And physiologically, I was a professional athlete. I got the strength right. Do you want to jump a bridge? I'm going to stop you.

00:03:18:03 - 00:03:37:14
JD Kalmenson
Right. Right. That's amazing. That's an amazing, amazing story. What shifted? When did you decide Enough with athletics. And I want to instead of focusing really on the physical prowess of my body, I want to dedicate my life to helping weaker souls.

00:03:37:16 - 00:03:47:21
Markus Rogan
Well, I would like to. I'd love to accept your hero's invitation to be like I'm the hero who helps the weaker souls. But I want to be clear. The doctor is nothing without patients.

00:03:48:01 - 00:03:48:18
JD Kalmenson
Right?

00:03:48:20 - 00:04:13:14
Markus Rogan
Right. I think we have to really look at that. That sometimes, especially in the field of mental health, we create our own patients because we are afraid to become obsolete. For me, I stopped being a professional athlete. Well, honestly, when my body. When I wasn't good enough anymore. Right. Right. If I was as good as, let's say, someone like Tom Brady and compared to my forties, I probably would have.

00:04:13:16 - 00:04:22:07
Markus Rogan
But instead, I saw that the physical will only get you so far. For a brief moment, I was the best in the world.

00:04:22:10 - 00:04:22:23
JD Kalmenson
Right?

00:04:23:01 - 00:04:24:09
Markus Rogan
It was like, Yes.

00:04:24:11 - 00:04:24:18
JD Kalmenson
Yeah.

00:04:24:18 - 00:04:27:18
Markus Rogan
But it turns out then there's a next the younger one, the hungrier.

00:04:27:18 - 00:04:29:19
JD Kalmenson
What's better one. That's right.

00:04:29:21 - 00:04:45:12
Markus Rogan
So then I saw the hero in a way, is. Is is a type of boy. Yeah, right. A man I think is more of a of a of a guide of of a king. Not not the knight for the knight is kind of like.

00:04:45:14 - 00:04:47:13
JD Kalmenson
Shining armor swooping in.

00:04:47:17 - 00:05:10:13
Markus Rogan
Right, Right. I want to be more like the king. The connector, maybe a little bit of magician. Yeah. Getting people together and. And. And helping others rise. That feels fine. It's more sustainable, right? There's. There's. If I do it right, there's no expiration date, Right? My body's not going to give out on that. Yeah, on the Olympic level, I'm.

00:05:10:15 - 00:05:14:10
Markus Rogan
And it actually fills me up more.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:40:09
JD Kalmenson
That's beautiful. In general, I think there's a beautiful sort of litmus test to determine what's temporarily stimulating and, you know, pleasure feeling or what has something that has more emotional satiation and long term inner contentedness and fulfillment is, you know, there's it's that you are or are you? What does that mean? It's like when something is very enjoyable.

00:05:40:11 - 00:05:58:02
JD Kalmenson
And it's. and the next day you wake up and it's like, Ooh, what did I just do? That's the wrong path. But it first comes to, ooh, the discomfort and the toil, the exertion of this. And then comes the. I got the degree. I had that child. I brought up that child. I built that career.

00:05:58:05 - 00:06:02:00
JD Kalmenson
I have a, you know, a list of clients whose lives I would take.

00:06:02:00 - 00:06:09:16
Markus Rogan
It one step further that the a deep marriage is a lot of. Ooh.

00:06:09:18 - 00:06:10:07
JD Kalmenson
Yeah.

00:06:10:08 - 00:06:16:22
Markus Rogan
But when you were able to look your betrothed in the eye and just tell the truth and the full truth.

00:06:16:23 - 00:06:17:15
JD Kalmenson
Yeah. It's a.

00:06:17:15 - 00:06:18:12
Markus Rogan
True.

00:06:18:13 - 00:06:43:00
JD Kalmenson
It's a true are a part of that is because all of you is there. We don't realize how fragmented we are. And the forehead allows us to inside outside worlds. And if everybody would know everything we're thinking at all times. So it's very be a very dangerous world to live in. And so we're constantly concealing and bifurcating and fragmenting.

00:06:43:00 - 00:07:06:22
JD Kalmenson
There's different parts of ourselves the good, the bad, the ugly. And even in those, we're creating different categories. And so when you look at somebody in the eye and your whole truth is presence. Yeah, the are comes from just the simplicity of not needing to compartmentalize such a power, fake it, not needing to fake it, such a powerful experience.

00:07:06:22 - 00:07:08:00
Markus Rogan
All you worth it?

00:07:08:04 - 00:07:33:05
JD Kalmenson
Yes, yes, yes. You know, Thomas Merton once said so many people spend their lives climbing up the ladder of success only to realize once they've reached the top that it was facing the wrong wall. But what you've done is you've still had the chance to just say, all right, I'm going to put it to a different side and I'm just going to climb right up.

00:07:33:11 - 00:07:35:06
JD Kalmenson
That's a unique gift.

00:07:35:08 - 00:07:52:15
Markus Rogan
Well, I mean, I appreciate that. I I don't know if I was, like, at the top and was like, now I'm going to go to the next one. No, no, no. I was like, at the top, desperately trying to stay at the top. I was like, how can I train harder? How much more can I do?

00:07:52:16 - 00:08:13:15
Markus Rogan
Da da da da da da. I literally went to the edge of legality right? This in professional sports, it's an open secret. You get offered performance enhancing drugs all the time. And I was like, What is the last most powerful legal thing I could do? And then after that I was like, Okay, that's all I got. That's all I got.

00:08:13:17 - 00:08:31:20
Markus Rogan
And then I realized, like, you know, I was I was number one in the world in 2008, I had a brief moment of number one in the world in 2009, but by 2010 I was only second in the world. 2011, I was then the fourth. Right.

00:08:31:22 - 00:08:38:10
JD Kalmenson
Even though that's something that people who dream about being the fourth, when you're number one and it's now it's it's it's crushing. Right.

00:08:38:10 - 00:08:48:15
Markus Rogan
And then the as I was climbing the other ladder, those bottom steps that my ego hurt. my God, it's me.

00:08:48:17 - 00:08:54:06
JD Kalmenson
And so you had to deal with this inner existential crisis.

00:08:54:08 - 00:08:54:23
Markus Rogan
Absolutely.

00:08:55:02 - 00:09:00:03
JD Kalmenson
Because up until that point, you were very focused on being the number one in the world.

00:09:00:05 - 00:09:02:15
Markus Rogan
Very focused and very rewarded.

00:09:02:17 - 00:09:03:15
JD Kalmenson
And very rewarding.

00:09:03:15 - 00:09:05:03
Markus Rogan
I got so much reward.

00:09:05:04 - 00:09:06:15
JD Kalmenson
Yes. Validation.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:09:15
Markus Rogan
Yes, yes, yes. Money, Sex. Validation, yes.

00:09:09:15 - 00:09:19:10
JD Kalmenson
And it's a dopamine rush. And now a lot of you like, wow, that's a lot of art. It's also a lot of the next morning what happened. And so what?

00:09:19:10 - 00:09:22:05
Markus Rogan
But you have no one to tell you that it was.

00:09:22:07 - 00:09:22:18
JD Kalmenson
that's right.

00:09:22:18 - 00:09:25:08
Markus Rogan
Right. In the next morning, you already have the next people telling you.

00:09:25:10 - 00:09:26:00
JD Kalmenson
That's right.

00:09:26:00 - 00:09:27:11
Markus Rogan
That's the that's the problem with.

00:09:27:11 - 00:09:28:08
JD Kalmenson
Things.

00:09:28:10 - 00:09:31:02
Markus Rogan
That everyone tells you. Great.

00:09:31:04 - 00:09:46:16
JD Kalmenson
So, so interesting. And so did you always know that you were going to go into a healing position or was it just something that sort of evolves organically in your own journey? I am. Your mother's.

00:09:46:19 - 00:09:48:08
Markus Rogan
Like, yeah, my my is it's.

00:09:48:08 - 00:09:49:00
JD Kalmenson
Not foreign.

00:09:49:04 - 00:10:05:06
Markus Rogan
To her for that. I thought it was total bullshit. It's like I said, nonsense until I had a fantastic psychologist. I had just a fantastic, fantastic psychologist who and then it was clear that that's exactly what I want to do.

00:10:05:08 - 00:10:14:04
JD Kalmenson
Wow. You know, that's amazing. Yeah. And you're dealing with the demographic that you know so well experientially as an athlete.

00:10:14:08 - 00:10:34:01
Markus Rogan
Yeah. Yeah. and athletes, right? They they really struggle with that because you achieve everything with You think athletic training is really hard and yes, it is okay. Yes, it's hard to become the best in the world at a sport, but it's also so short, right? You are the best by the time like you really around your peers.

00:10:34:01 - 00:11:00:21
Markus Rogan
By the time you're 18, you're one of the best 18 year olds. But at home you're 25. When everyone else, like, let's say, in an academic profession, is like making $0, like toiling away in, like, nameless research, like, like underground bunkers, basically. Right. You're making millions of dollars, right? So it's we think of and we give athletes the credit as if they are the hardest working people on the planet.

00:11:00:23 - 00:11:08:18
Markus Rogan
But the truth is they reach their peak very much earlier. So it's with actually less. Ooh.

00:11:08:20 - 00:11:09:08
JD Kalmenson
That's very.

00:11:09:10 - 00:11:25:00
Markus Rogan
Promising. It's less you'd become an mike is the best swimmer in the world than it is to become a really good professor. What it take. There's more. Ooh. Yeah. You have to face. Yeah. In the academic world.

00:11:25:02 - 00:11:38:02
JD Kalmenson
Very, very interesting. And the fact is that when there's less to it, when there's less toil and exertion, it's the easier route. And when we're used to taking the easier route and then we just hit this like midlife crisis at 35.

00:11:38:08 - 00:11:39:05
Markus Rogan
Or 25 or.

00:11:39:05 - 00:11:53:10
JD Kalmenson
25. Wow. What do we do there? And you alluded to this earlier, but it very much aligns with something that I feel is is a national epidemic. We have a crisis of identity.

00:11:53:12 - 00:11:54:05
Markus Rogan
Absolutely.

00:11:54:05 - 00:12:16:22
JD Kalmenson
And because because there's such a critical lack of intrinsic existential validation and affirmation, which means in layman's language that I'm enough. I don't need outside people, places or things to make me feel valuable, to make me feel masses sorry and relevant. I don't need that. I may by virtue of my existence, I matter.

00:12:17:01 - 00:12:19:01
Markus Rogan
Yeah.

00:12:19:03 - 00:12:54:04
JD Kalmenson
Then we can appreciate the journey, the journey of life. You see, most people look at life as an Uber ride. It's just from here to there. And so everything in between is an inconvenience at best and frustrating it the worst case. But life is more like a cruise when you're internally satiated, where the journey is the destination enjoying every day because we only parent our children for 1015 years.

00:12:54:10 - 00:13:12:01
JD Kalmenson
If those are the years they were so busy making money by the time we have it, they're out of the house. You have nobody to spend it on and they grew up with absent parents. And so that's just one example of if we're not really taking every day of the journey into account and just really relishing it, relishing, enjoying and celebrating it.

00:13:12:03 - 00:13:33:17
JD Kalmenson
And so all of that, I think, feel stems from if I'm not going to be a somebody until I make a certain financial threshold, I'm confusing net worth and self-worth, then I'm going to feel inadequate, insecure with all of the character flaws that are associated with that. And I'm going to have a critical deficiency in my life until I get that threshold.

00:13:33:19 - 00:13:36:01
JD Kalmenson
What a miserable way to live our prime.

00:13:36:07 - 00:13:38:00
Markus Rogan
What's an Uber? That's an Uber, right?

00:13:38:00 - 00:13:38:20
JD Kalmenson
That's an override.

00:13:38:20 - 00:13:43:21
Markus Rogan
Yeah. Yeah. And so in an override, in a not good enough car.

00:13:43:21 - 00:13:59:12
JD Kalmenson
Yes. Never enough. Because Joseph Heller, who is a novelist who was once had a hedge fund managers party and a hedge fund manager, makes fun of him to a friend of his. And he says, you know, I make more than this fellow's Magnum opus, you know, that story.

00:13:59:16 - 00:14:02:20
Markus Rogan
And it's fantastic. I love it. As a teller, Teller tells Total.

00:14:03:01 - 00:14:09:14
JD Kalmenson
He says, I make more than that than he made from his magnum opus in one day. And what did he say? I have something you're never going to have. What is.

00:14:09:14 - 00:14:10:11
Markus Rogan
It? Enough.

00:14:10:11 - 00:14:11:01
JD Kalmenson
Enough.

00:14:11:01 - 00:14:13:11
Markus Rogan
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:14:13:13 - 00:14:40:13
JD Kalmenson
And that's why even though you're, you know, the greatest showman has one of the greatest songs of all time, but I don't like one of the words never enough. Right. Because that's so problematic. So tell me a little bit about your brand of therapy and what makes you know, your experience. Because I look at you and I see somebody who isn't bifurcated, who brings their entire humanity, your entire narrative, into the therapeutic process.

00:14:40:13 - 00:14:53:02
JD Kalmenson
You do that. You don't. You hope so. And I and I think that makes for such a unique cornucopia, such a unique recipe. So tell me a little bit about that.

00:14:53:04 - 00:15:22:15
Markus Rogan
So I do believe that ultimately we're not until your story you told me the beautiful story about enough. Okay, is this is Master Load. I'm okay, too. By Hermann Hesse, sir. Two master teachers lived at the opposite side of the desert. Okay? They are the undisputed masters of the area, and everyone comes to them to be taught. But they both feel like, Oof, I'm not.

00:15:22:17 - 00:15:42:16
Markus Rogan
I'm not enough. Like they're. I heard about this other teacher, right? They know about each other that I'm going to go there and learn, you know, and they at the same time get on their camels and they go through the desert to visit the other. But pure coincidence, they meet an oasis in the middle at a well, at a spring.

00:15:42:16 - 00:16:11:07
Markus Rogan
Right. And they start talking. And here's the one difference. One says, Hey, I'm looking to be a student, and the other says, Well, I'm a teacher, but what is it? And then they have that relationship, right? But who learns more? And I think the brand of therapy I'm trying to do is that it's a total fucking coincidence. Who's the doctor and who's the patient?

00:16:11:09 - 00:16:22:09
JD Kalmenson
Interesting. Wow. And that resonates. That resonates with the athletes.

00:16:22:11 - 00:16:33:17
Markus Rogan
Well, it's sometimes scary, right? Yeah. And then it gets king a complicated because, like. But hold on. I'm still expecting payment, right? You know, like. Like, how do you work that out?

00:16:33:17 - 00:16:48:11
JD Kalmenson
You know, you have to see there's a bit from Jackie based on a psychiatrist, you got to it's just hilarious. he starts saying, you know, you're getting it, too. I'm here to find the real me. But what's if I don't want to find the real me? What's the. I'm doing great without him. What's if it turns out that the real me is you and I'm the real you.

00:16:48:11 - 00:17:01:07
JD Kalmenson
And now you owe me money? Yeah, the whole bit. Yeah, but yeah, that could, that could, that, that. Because that is an interesting exploration. Yeah. That transcends boundaries. But then we have to go back into the boundaries.

00:17:01:09 - 00:17:13:02
Markus Rogan
yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And, and ultimately like, especially when you're dealing with some societal right, there are times you have to hospitalized. Yeah. I have to like, lean into authority. Wow.

00:17:13:04 - 00:17:22:11
JD Kalmenson
What's your number one technique? If you had one technique that you could take to a desert island or not?

00:17:22:11 - 00:17:48:20
Markus Rogan
I tell you, fortunately, it does, actually. An island. Yes, absolutely an island. I think that you should if you're experience any form of anxiety or anything that that doesn't feel right. I would go in the water, could be mikvah, could be bathtub, could be just a sink or on a desert island. Just go off the island, Right. Just, you know, and breathe out into the water.

00:17:48:22 - 00:18:11:18
Markus Rogan
Breathe out because it will regulate and it will make the breath out longer. Wow. And that, I think, is the cause of so much pain that we rush the breath. Wow. And if we breathe out longer, it activates the parasympathetic nervous system and allows us to regulate. It allows us to get more grounded.

00:18:11:20 - 00:18:13:21
JD Kalmenson
And that's something everybody can do. Yeah.

00:18:13:22 - 00:18:15:01
Markus Rogan
The desert island.

00:18:15:01 - 00:18:16:04
JD Kalmenson
Especially on.

00:18:16:06 - 00:18:21:06
Markus Rogan
The lot, is all everywhere. I do have to respect that.

00:18:21:11 - 00:18:24:14
JD Kalmenson
Thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to.