Dr. Don Grant: How Your Phone Is Hacking Your Brain (And What to Do About It)

From the casino-like "pull-to-refresh" feature to the rise of the TikTok diagnosis, our devices have a much deeper impact on our mental health than we realize. In this compelling episode of Discover U, media psychologist Dr. Don Grant explains the psychological tricks technology uses to keep us hooked and how it's affecting our relationships and well-being.

Join guest host Amy Charlesworth as she and Dr. Grant discuss:

The concepts of "technoference" and "absent presence" in our daily interactions.
How the creators of technology often limit its use for their own children.
The rise of untrained "influencers" giving dangerous mental health diagnoses online.
Practical, expert advice for parents and individuals on creating healthier device habits and setting boundaries.
This is a crucial conversation for anyone looking to reclaim their attention and foster more meaningful real-life connections.

Follow JD at JDKalmenson.com

Transcript

00;00;00;26 - 00;00;32;01
Amy Charlesworth
Welcome to Discover U, a podcast where we explore groundbreaking ideas and inspiring voices in mental health and behavioral health. I'm your guest host Amy Charlesworth. We are here at the Emerging Themes and Behavioral Health Conference, catching up with some amazing innovators who are reshaping the treatment space with fresh breakthroughs and new approaches. Today, we are honored to be joined by doctor Dawn Grant, an award winning media psychologist, researcher, educator, and national expert on technology's impact on mental health.

00;00;32;03 - 00;00;57;01
Amy Charlesworth
Doctor Grant serves as a national advisor of Healthy Device Management for Newport Health Care, and has been a powerful voice in the field of media psychology through his leadership with the American Psychological Association. A sought after keynote speaker, educator, and media contributor. His work has been featured in major outlets including The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Forbes, and CNN.

00;00;57;03 - 00;01;20;27
Amy Charlesworth
He's known for translating complex research into practical insights on how our digital lives shape our mental well-being. His current work dives deep into the effects of device use on relationships, identity and emotional health, particularly for young people. I'm so excited to dive into today's conversation, where we'll explore how we can all build healthier, more mindful relationships with our technology and each other.

00;01;20;29 - 00;01;22;23
Amy Charlesworth
Doctor Grant, welcome to Discover You.

00;01;22;29 - 00;01;26;24
Don Grant
Thank you so much, Amy, and thank you for having me. This is a real privilege.

00;01;26;27 - 00;01;36;17
Amy Charlesworth
We're excited to dive in. And of course, our first question is just to get, you know, people excited about your background a little bit more and how you got started in this particular field.

00;01;36;19 - 00;01;57;15
Don Grant
Oh, okay. So, for many, many years, for most of my life up until that point, I worked actually in media. So I worked in entertainment and I had all kinds of things. I'm still a card carrying member of a lot of those, you know, performing unions and writing all of that. So I did that for a long time.

00;01;57;18 - 00;02;23;05
Don Grant
And then and it's not like I have, any, it's not like I, I, I, I don't want to say this. I've been in recovery for 24 years, so it's pretty much everybody knows it's not a secret. And I was pausing because I believe and really strongly believe in anonymity is a spiritual foundation of any of the 12 step program.

00;02;23;08 - 00;02;46;22
Don Grant
But I even if I wanted to, I'm just I'm not altogether unknown. So, I'm a long time ago now in a galaxy that feels far, far away. I got sober, and when that happened, I realized that I had to make a profound change in my life. And I also wanted to give back. So I made the decision, to start working in treatment.

00;02;46;24 - 00;03;08;17
Don Grant
So for the last almost 24 years, 23.5, I have worked in the treatment world. And so I started working, as a tech in, in a residential treatment center. I got to tell you, Amy, of all the great jobs that they were able to have since, gosh, that was my favorite. I really love being a tech. But.

00;03;08;17 - 00;03;28;21
Don Grant
So I started working in treatment. I realized I was really in over my head. I mean, I had a background in, you know, a whole other field that now I'm in recovery, I'm in psychology, I'm in addiction, and I am trying to be legit. So I first went back to school and became a certified drug counselor, and that really helped me.

00;03;28;28 - 00;03;56;28
Don Grant
But I really believe in dual diagnosis treatment. It's what helped me and what worked for me. So in other words, looking not at just what the, the struggle with the substances, but what's driving it, what's the underlying co-occurring disorder that could be happening. And I really believe that that kind of synergy of work is important. So it's very important to learn if you're kind of if you're struggling with anything, how do you know heal.

00;03;57;00 - 00;04;00;11
Don Grant
But I also think it's important to find out how you got there. Right.

00;04;00;14 - 00;04;11;05
Amy Charlesworth
It's such a beautiful gift for you to have your own personal story with addiction, and then to turn around and help somebody behind you, you know, not to somebody, thousands of people behind you through your work. So, I mean, it's really.

00;04;11;05 - 00;04;35;26
Don Grant
Well, and I would love, you know, Thank you. I have the opinion, I've done a lot of schooling. I have a doctorate in psychology now, so that's kind of Pinterest that will come back. But, I know that's important. I'm going to tell you, I learned kind of everything I needed to learn and going through this.

00;04;35;26 - 00;04;57;07
Don Grant
And I will, you know, I make living amends to all the people who I mean, I just say it this way again, it's like a pretty public figure now. So people know and I speak a lot. Oh, man. When I went down, I scorched an empire to the earth. It was a Game of Thrones epic with the dragons.

00;04;57;09 - 00;05;13;19
Don Grant
But it also, you know, it. There was a lot of people who got caught in that, as we tend to do, and that was something I will always need to make living amends for. And I do and everything's been really, I think, good for a long time. But the idea that I've already been through it, I'll tell you there is nothing.

00;05;13;19 - 00;05;35;25
Don Grant
And I tell my clients this because I work in the treatment field. But I also have a private practice. I tell them, please, there's nothing you can tell me that I could ever judge. So that kind of trust, knowing that I didn't read about in books that I've been there, but also that there's a way out, like someone taught me, you know, someone had to show me because I didn't believe there was.

00;05;35;28 - 00;05;57;15
Don Grant
I thought I was truly unique and like, no one is ever going to be able to help me lot. That's just not true. So what happened was that I started working in treatment, and I first became a drug counselor because I wanted to be able to be the best I could be and do it legitimately. But then I was working in dual diagnosis treatment, and suddenly I realized that I'm dealing with some psychological and mental health issues that I don't even understand.

00;05;57;15 - 00;06;16;08
Don Grant
And that wasn't cool with me, that didn't feel ethical, they didn't feel right. So I went back to school. I originally was going to pursue clinical psychology, but I got to be honest, I was taking those classes and they were great, but it didn't feel authentic. It wasn't really feeling right to me. So what I did was I took a great leap of faith.

00;06;16;08 - 00;06;39;10
Don Grant
Oh God, this is so anti me. I am so geeky. Like, everything's got to be done right. And that's how it was raised. And maybe that was part of the problem back in the day. So I decided this is not right. And I decided I'm in this program of recovery now and I need to be authentic. And I'm not trying to do something anymore as much because it's progress, not perfection.

00;06;39;12 - 00;07;05;08
Don Grant
To impress you, to make myself look good. And I, I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist. I wanted to know, but it wasn't what I wanted. So I took a great leap of faith. This was so polar to anything I would do. Amy. But I had to do it. It was also because now I was in this program of recovery and authenticity and trying to trying to do this right, right, and have integrity in all my actions.

00;07;05;08 - 00;07;31;04
Don Grant
Right? Oh, God, I've never done this. I dropped out of the program, I finished, I completed the classes, I completed an early child development class and something else. And, I didn't know what I was going to do. I was between trapeze bars with no net and didn't know I was on a plane going to a wedding. And I saw this magazine and in the, in the airplane, and it was talking about this doctorate in media psychology.

00;07;31;06 - 00;07;54;14
Don Grant
And I'm reading about this school that's got this doctorate in media psychology. And I'm thinking, wait, this is please don't judge. I was like, they created this for me. It's a synergy of all my media that I love and all the entertainment I love and all of the psychology. I mean, of course they did not, I ended up applying to that program and getting accepted that program, but it was also because there's another thing going on.

00;07;54;16 - 00;08;18;27
Don Grant
So I am one of the last generations of digital immigrants. Do you know what, a digital immigrant. Okay, so it did. Thank you. That's good I appreciate that, you know, because some of the people watching this may not a digital immigrant is someone who did not grow up with all this technology. You know, when I was growing up dating me with a phone on the wall, it was beige.

00;08;18;29 - 00;08;40;17
Don Grant
It was rotary. Like we were not fancy people. So my friends had the push button once, but we just had the basic plan. But we'd have phones out on the wall with the cord for a while, and then we got, you know, more advanced. So I'm a digital immigrant, so that's cool. But I'm the father of digital natives.

00;08;40;19 - 00;09;03;23
Don Grant
Both my daughters were born with no idea how we ever survived, how did we ever survive without any of, like, what we did? But so I am a digital immigrant. My children are digital natives. So I started to learn and they were my older daughter was one of the first generations of digital natives who just grew up with all of these new technologies and all of these devices and things.

00;09;04;00 - 00;09;42;01
Don Grant
So I kind of grew up with her as a digital immigrant, but watching my children explore all of these different platforms and these different devices, I still it still boggles my mind. When I was told by my child that we could not possibly go on vacation because her Tamagotchi would die. Like, what are you talking about? It's a keychain with the thing, and you know what's interesting is that as technology has evolved so rapidly, my team, clients that I work with in the mid 2000 to 2000 and teens were telling their parents they couldn't go on vacation because of their snap streaks.

00;09;42;04 - 00;09;44;19
Amy Charlesworth
Wow. That's that's quite something.

00;09;44;20 - 00;10;04;24
Don Grant
So it's just always going to evolve, right? So I was looking at this and this program was just perfect because we had to take a complete clinical psychology, the weather program. We set up a complete clinical same like you would take in clinical psychology, curriculum. So I at the time I was like, why am I having to take this?

00;10;04;24 - 00;10;24;17
Don Grant
I thought I didn't want this, but it was right. So I got to study and my doctorate is in psychology. It has a specialization in media psychology. But it was also as the rise of the machines, as they say, what was happening. So I started looking at things, Amy and I was observing around the world, and I started to see how these devices were starting to impact us.

00;10;24;17 - 00;10;49;16
Don Grant
Even back in the late, like the 2007, eight, nine, ten. And I thought, oh, but it was really my kids watching. Their reactions were exploring these. I'm a digital immigrant. I didn't want to know about this stuff, but because I had to, I started to see that there might be some problems. But I'm also studying the psychology of how media and things like this impact us, and I start to get nervous, especially about social media.

00;10;49;18 - 00;11;10;16
Don Grant
So that's kind of how I got into it. And gosh, I was so worried, you know, that I was making a mistake. I made so many mistakes in my life. If I was wrong about really, really going forward with my work, that now 15 years of looking at our device behaviors and how they might impact us, I would have been an epic, epic mistake.

00;11;10;16 - 00;11;15;29
Don Grant
But as we've seen, I wasn't wrong. So hopefully my student loans will continue to get paid.

00;11;16;02 - 00;11;35;24
Amy Charlesworth
And your work has just been so incredible. And across a variety of different areas of technology. Specifically, you've been focusing on the how technology impacts relationships. And so tell me a little bit about some of those things. What are some of those factors that are arising through your research and through working with families and individuals together? What are some of the impacts?

00;11;35;24 - 00;11;57;08
Don Grant
Well, I think, you know, it's interesting and thank you for asking that. But I would imagine that everyone watching this could come up with in their own lives how these devices influence and impact. Now, I want to make something really clear because I should have said this. Maybe first I am not anti technology. I'm not anti devices. I use them all the time.

00;11;57;15 - 00;12;12;08
Don Grant
I have sometimes a little problem with ways because sometimes I think it purposely is just trying to mess me up. Sometimes I understand why it takes me off the freeway and I think oh, I'm going to get like some cool little shortcut. And then it just takes me back on the freeway. I'm like, yeah, but I use technology.

00;12;12;12 - 00;12;17;07
Don Grant
However.

00;12;17;10 - 00;12;42;29
Don Grant
Henry David Thoreau in 1864 wrote the book. Walden Pond wrote the book Walden. And in it he has a quote. Men have become the tools of their tools. Now, I am very confident that Thoreau was not talking about the kind of devices and things we have. He was talking about things like plowshares. There was actually the first washing machine, dishwashing machine.

00;12;43;01 - 00;13;08;12
Don Grant
But I saw that quote and I included in my presentations because these devices and the platforms and services they deliver, Amy, there are tools. But what we have learned very quickly is that for some of us, we have become their tool. Now we're learning more like I was started to look at this in 2007, 2008, 2009, and I was studying and researching and doing research studies.

00;13;08;19 - 00;13;39;15
Don Grant
I started to look at this and I went, wait a second. And this was very nascent and early on. Right. But I was looking at this and I went, wait, there's this might be an issue. But then we've seen what has happened. And now in the last few years, we have seen that people who work for these companies or work for these companies and the creators themselves are coming forward and saying, oops, are bad, because I tell people, just putting it out there, if it's free, you're the product.

00;13;39;17 - 00;13;56;05
Don Grant
So I don't think the, you know, meta and all of these companies that even social media, do you think that that's a free service they're just providing? No, we are the product. But it has happened because we become so attached to these devices and the services they deliver. I don't even know how long are we going to keep calling them phones?

00;13;56;08 - 00;14;05;21
Don Grant
How much in the frequency do we even use these little devices to communicate and talk anymore? And don't try to get a teenager to talk on the phone. They're all texting.

00;14;05;24 - 00;14;18;26
Amy Charlesworth
Right? I mean, I also think about the the funny quote that I've seen where the head of Apple doesn't even allow their client to, use Apple devices and iPads and things. I think that's so funny.

00;14;18;29 - 00;14;45;21
Don Grant
Steve Jobs did not let his kids have iPads. His company invented them. Steve Cook, he's he's got a nephew that he. But they all I do a whole slide in a presentation they knew don't get high on your own supply. All of the they all go through and I talk about it's kind of reminds me of the controversy about the tobacco industry back in the day when they were finding out that the people who actually produced all this tobacco were not using it, dealt with their kids.

00;14;45;21 - 00;15;06;20
Don Grant
You it forbade it. But if you go through, all of them and I have it on the slide. Yes, of course, but, you know, the idea of how this happened, because people ask me all the time, Amy, how did this happen so fast? It's like, guys, you know, think about it. I guess we could say now, 25 years ago, there wasn't even really social media.

00;15;06;20 - 00;15;26;04
Don Grant
I mean, it was Myspace. I still miss Myspace and Ask Jeeves. People are watching as Jeeves. Well, yes. Jesus. Right now. ChatGPT so ask ChatGPT. But it's when you think about it, relative terms. 20 something years ago, nobody even carried around a cell phone.

00;15;26;11 - 00;15;27;13
Speaker 3


00;15;27;15 - 00;15;33;14
Don Grant
If we did, it was the thing we thought was going to change the world. It was the BlackBerry. Remember the BlackBerry? Yeah. Loved it. Remember what we called it?

00;15;33;14 - 00;15;37;26
Amy Charlesworth
The Pearl? Yeah. BlackBerry. Pearl. Yeah.

00;15;37;29 - 00;15;40;29
Don Grant
I feel like we're taking this new style trips down.

00;15;41;02 - 00;15;42;18
Amy Charlesworth
You know, date us? Nobody. Data.

00;15;42;22 - 00;15;47;01
Don Grant
Do you remember what we jokingly. It was a very. We call the BlackBerry.

00;15;47;08 - 00;15;48;08
Amy Charlesworth
No.

00;15;48;11 - 00;16;04;28
Don Grant
I don't know if we call it the CrackBerry because it was so addictive. Little did we know, it was about to happen on June 26th, 2007, which is a day that I proposed my theory. When we look back, we're going to say that was the inflection point. That's when it all changed. But go ahead.

00;16;04;28 - 00;16;19;07
Amy Charlesworth
What are you going to. Oh, and no, I'm just so excited to dive in more. I mean, you've explored the the concept of techno Ference. Oh yeah, with families and relationships and how it has impacted people. Tell me more about that. And what is techno Ference yeah.

00;16;19;07 - 00;16;45;06
Don Grant
Thank you. Okay, so there's three different kind of behaviors that are phenomenon that these devices have really, then been identified as is causing some struggles. So it's the term absent presence, which I know sounds like an oxymoron or a paradox. Absent presence. What is that? So there's absent presence. There's fobbing and techno ference. So if I asked you, I know I'm pretty this bad year, but what is.

00;16;45;06 - 00;16;51;06
Don Grant
What do you think? Absent presence. That's so weird. What does that mean? What do you think? Absent presence means?

00;16;51;08 - 00;16;59;05
Amy Charlesworth
You know, for me, it's probably like sitting on the couch. Maybe my son's talking to me, and I'm completely just devoid of the the engagement with him because I'm scrolling through Instagram or something.

00;16;59;06 - 00;17;19;25
Don Grant
Right. You're in the room, you're with the people, but you're not. You're present, but you're an absent presence. Sort of like, it's not really. I'm not trying to say it's a fugue state because I'm not trying to be disrespectful to people who struggle with that. But it's just you're on your race and you're doesn't matter what's going on.

00;17;19;25 - 00;17;40;03
Don Grant
There could be a zombie apocalypse, and you're going to probably miss it. And then maybe it becomes on because you get bit. It's absent presence means that. So then there's what the second one is. And I'm saving techno fears for the end. But there's farming. Farming is a portmanteau. Oh fancy word. What's that? It means it's a combination.

00;17;40;03 - 00;18;10;20
Don Grant
A synergy of two different words. So far being means phone and snubbing. So it's similar. But what it means is that you're on your phone, you're on your device, and you're just ignoring people. Hey, Amy. Hey, Amy. You're just snubbing them. You're just. And then there's techno ference. Techno fairness means that you and I are having a conversation like we're having right now, but then our device sends out an alert, a notification.

00;18;10;22 - 00;18;27;19
Don Grant
You know, someone calls, and I'm having present presents with. You were together. But then that device alert, alarm notification call interrupts, and instead of remaining with you, what do you think I do?

00;18;27;25 - 00;18;29;01
Amy Charlesworth
Oh, you're going right to the phone.

00;18;29;01 - 00;18;49;27
Don Grant
I go right to the phone. So here's what happens. And here's like so I don't believe that if you're with a person and I know even dinner, if you can get the family to dinner together, I have always endorsed and believe that if you're with someone, put the phone away, just turn it off and stow it. Because here's the thing.

00;18;49;27 - 00;19;30;03
Don Grant
And I don't know, people can disagree with me. Real life only happens right now, right now, right now. So the experience is the opportunities, the improvization of things that happen. They only happen once, right? Anything coming through any device is digital, which means it's archived, which means it's available. It's waiting for you. That's not real life. So if you decide that you're going to be in present presence with a person and really have a relationship, an experience, then I think that you have to remove the distractions of your device and you're going to stow it.

00;19;30;03 - 00;19;50;11
Don Grant
And I'm going to give you an example. So say that you're over your friend's house and your friend has an adorable, very adorable new puppy, but that puppy's yappy and that puppy is there. And it's kind of like coming at you and pawing at you. And you're the guess what? Might your friend with the new puppy is adorable as it is.

00;19;50;11 - 00;19;53;19
Don Grant
What would your your friend do with that puppy immediately?

00;19;53;19 - 00;19;55;09
Amy Charlesworth
Want to show it to you, right? Yeah.

00;19;55;12 - 00;20;01;26
Don Grant
And then if the puppy is on you and you kind of, you're the guest in the puppy's yapping and barking and trying to get out.

00;20;01;29 - 00;20;06;04
Amy Charlesworth
Put it away, move it to another room, maybe. Yeah. Put in the crate. Yeah.

00;20;06;07 - 00;20;23;26
Don Grant
Exactly. I would think that's what I would do with my puppy. My new puppy. I want to show it you. But then I would want to put the puppy someplace safe. And I'm not trying. You know, I say the same thing about a device because that's the yappy puppy. I'm also going to propose this, and you can disagree.

00;20;23;29 - 00;20;42;06
Don Grant
But if that phones, if the phone is on the table or devices on the table, then it's on the table. So what it means is that even if it's not my intention, Amy, I could be sending a message to you. Amy, you are really a part of me right now. I love we're having coffee. We're talking. Whatever we're doing, we're having an experience.

00;20;42;06 - 00;21;07;10
Don Grant
We're taking a walk. I'm really interested in you. But if that device notifies me or sends an alert, I might consider, I'm probably going to take that bit. It means you're really important, but I'm open to better bids. And so I'm sitting there and you and I are talking, and we didn't mean it, but I just put the phone on the table and suddenly I hear a little alert notification.

00;21;07;13 - 00;21;24;23
Don Grant
Chances are that I'm still with you, but I'm not. I'm suddenly like, oh my God, what is it? Oh, I got something in me. What's going on in that device? Oh my God, who is who? What is it? What is it? And I'm just cortisol is flowing in my brain, but dopamine is because. Who could it be? And I can't resist it, because that's what now I've been conditioned to program like all of us.

00;21;25;00 - 00;21;48;06
Don Grant
And I would be like, yeah, and you're talking about I'm really have a hard time focus because the alert, oh my God, look at it. What is that it? And then I'm going to say, you know what. I'm going to take you're going to be like yeah okay. Or it's going to go off and you are going to look at me because you see it and you're going to just let me out of my misery and say, do you want to check that down?

00;21;48;08 - 00;22;01;03
Don Grant
Oh thank you. So I'm going to go over a so it's really important because someone someone alerted okay. So hold that thought. Pinterest which is okay. Who am I got I got Kohl's cash. Hashtag crushing.

00;22;01;03 - 00;22;05;28
Amy Charlesworth
It. Yeah. Something completely irrelevant to the day. Absolutely.

00;22;05;28 - 00;22;09;08
Don Grant
I hope you are not diminishing the value of those cash. Yeah.

00;22;09;10 - 00;22;26;19
Amy Charlesworth
Health Kohl's cash. You know. So that's going to ask a little bit of a continuation of that question. We focus at you know I think mostly so far we focused on like how it might impact maybe like the relationship between me and you and how offended I might be. What is that doing for the person and their mental health that's so responsive in that way?

00;22;26;24 - 00;22;29;07
Amy Charlesworth
Like they must be having some sort of, well, okay.

00;22;29;11 - 00;23;00;21
Don Grant
That's let me so let me just explain this to you because I want to finish that thought. So I would propose that if you're with a friend or you're in real life or you're at your daughter's recital or you're in a movie, I don't think the zombie apocalypse is going to happen. While that hour and a half that you're supposed to be in present presence with a friend or watching your daughter in her ballet class or your kid's baseball game, I've had so many kids, the parents say, oh my God, I am the best parent ever.

00;23;00;21 - 00;23;22;29
Don Grant
They're like flexing. I went and go to every baseball game with my son. I'm there. No, the parents go. I'm there every time. And I've had the kids literally say, in the family therapy, we'll say, no, you were there. But every time I looked up when I was playing, you were looking down at your device. I wish you hadn't come.

00;23;23;00 - 00;23;24;06
Don Grant
It was worse.

00;23;24;08 - 00;23;26;01
Speaker 3


00;23;26;03 - 00;23;45;26
Don Grant
Oh. Mother of the year. Just kind of go wow. So in real life this happens with taking, you know, putting the phone and having techno ference I've had this in real life. It's not fun. I'm an event. I'm at a party and I'm talking to someone, and they're looking at me and they're talking to me, but they're also looking over my shoulder.

00;23;45;28 - 00;24;08;09
Don Grant
Who's so I. Great. I am very happy you're talking to me. But what I'm aware of, what you're indicating to me and signaling is that I'm cool. But if a better bid comes along, if Kohl's cash walks through that door, if a better bid comes along, you're going to take it. And that doesn't feel great. So I suggest everyone, when you're with someone and present presents or add some event that is really only one time.

00;24;08;09 - 00;24;16;19
Don Grant
Turn off the phone, stow it. It's going to be there. When you turn it back on, everything is waiting for you.

00;24;16;21 - 00;24;17;15
Speaker 3


00;24;17;17 - 00;24;18;07
Amy Charlesworth
Yeah.

00;24;18;10 - 00;24;33;12
Don Grant
So you know when we look at things and we look at how pervasive devices have become, this is so quick. So I want to just also because people ask me this all the time they'll say how did this happen so fast on like oh my God. Like I said, it feels like, you know, a long time 20 years or 25 years.

00;24;33;12 - 00;25;03;23
Don Grant
But when do we cross the inflection point? What's going on? How did we all get so involved with the devices were everywhere we go, we look down and everyone's an absent presence. Staring down at their phone, crossing the street. Oh, that's not just safe. So where do we have this happen? And I have a theory and I'm just going to propose it because I say this, I believe and I said it earlier, June 26th, 2007 was when if we look back and those of us who do, we'll say, oh, that's when we crossed the inflection point.

00;25;03;23 - 00;25;07;11
Don Grant
That's when we passed over the event horizon. Do you have.

00;25;07;13 - 00;25;08;22
Amy Charlesworth
Your first iPhone?

00;25;08;25 - 00;25;09;08
Don Grant
Thank you.

00;25;09;12 - 00;25;09;21
Amy Charlesworth
Yeah.

00;25;09;21 - 00;25;26;00
Don Grant
First time June 26th, 2007. If you were on one of my presentations, I'd throw you a prize for that. Yeah. So why would I propose? Do you think that June 26th, 2007 was the day that changed? At least in this thing we're talking about changed everything, and there was no going back. What do you think?

00;25;26;03 - 00;25;30;28
Amy Charlesworth
I think that was the first interactive screen, right? Yeah.

00;25;31;00 - 00;25;47;04
Don Grant
Well, what did the iPhone have that had never come? Even the BlackBerry didn't have. What was the capability that the iPhone provided that there's no going back from that, I think. And I'll propose in the app system. But where does the app system come from?

00;25;47;04 - 00;25;48;08
Amy Charlesworth
The app store.

00;25;48;11 - 00;25;50;03
Don Grant
But where does the app store? Where do you find it?

00;25;50;05 - 00;25;53;24
Amy Charlesworth
Cloud. Oh, no, you're going to have to. You're gonna have to be the answer.

00;25;53;28 - 00;26;00;12
Don Grant
I know, it's okay. You were right there. So with the iPhone was the first time the internet became portable. Oh.

00;26;00;12 - 00;26;02;01
Amy Charlesworth
Thank you. I don't know why did they.

00;26;02;01 - 00;26;22;29
Don Grant
Get the internet back? While you were right there, the internet became portable. It used to be that if we wanted to get on the internet or we wanted to go and ask Jeeves, or we wanted to go on Myspace or friend finder or classmates.com. We had to be at our laptop or really our back. Then it was our hard drive, right?

00;26;23;05 - 00;26;47;27
Don Grant
Because Facebook, you know, was in 2004. Really. So we really had to do things at our desktop and they weren't going to port those around. And if we have a laptop, it's so clunky, we're not going to sit down and like try to check our socials right. But sadly, with that iPhone, the internet becomes portable. It's everywhere. There's accessibility, there's we can be on it and all the time.

00;26;47;27 - 00;27;11;27
Don Grant
Okay, so that was 2004. Then here we go. I'm not trying to put you on this, Farhad. I feel bad now. Please. So then, 2010, they released the iPhone four because they did, you know, each year. So a couple years later, the iPhone four. In 2010, June 24th, 2010. What was different about the iPhone four? Do you remember?

00;27;11;27 - 00;27;15;15
Don Grant
I know I'm asking. These are like the questions. You let me Google that.

00;27;15;15 - 00;27;16;18
Amy Charlesworth
Yeah, no I'm trying.

00;27;16;18 - 00;27;37;16
Don Grant
What was different about the iPhone four brought something else. When I'm talking about how did we get here so quickly? How did this happen so fast? Besides the fact that now we're all, you know, they're playing as they're gaming us, they're leveraging algorithms for our Olympics, all of limbic system, all of that. What was different? I'm giving you the hardware and software of how we got caught up.

00;27;37;16 - 00;27;37;26
Don Grant
Yeah.

00;27;37;27 - 00;27;41;10
Amy Charlesworth
What I'm trying to think of the upgrades. I actually have every single iPhone still stored.

00;27;41;12 - 00;27;42;01
Don Grant
Oh my gosh.

00;27;42;03 - 00;27;43;22
Amy Charlesworth
It's still stored in my in my box.

00;27;43;22 - 00;27;45;10
Don Grant
Oh my gosh. You were you're all in.

00;27;45;11 - 00;27;51;16
Amy Charlesworth
I had all of them. But at some point within that window of time, I know we integrated the iPod into the phone.

00;27;51;16 - 00;27;55;19
Don Grant
Okay, think of the hardware. I'm going to help you out. IPhone.

00;27;55;21 - 00;27;56;07
Amy Charlesworth
The camera.

00;27;56;07 - 00;28;02;10
Don Grant
What kind of camera? VGA. You're going to get a prize. What was different? What camera? What did the iPhone.

00;28;02;10 - 00;28;05;11
Amy Charlesworth
Oh, it was FaceTime, FaceTime, the front camera.

00;28;05;11 - 00;28;29;10
Don Grant
The front facing camera. Thank you. IPhone four front facing camera. Oh my goodness this is amazing. Hello selfie culture. And face tune 2010 also. Oh wow 2000 and no 2012. So wait let me start okay I sorry I got ahead of myself 2000 you know first we have the iPhone, then 2010, we've got the front facing camera.

00;28;29;10 - 00;28;53;16
Don Grant
But you already said it. We have the App Store. How convenient. We can take selfies and migrate them over on the same device to our socials, which was really at that time, Facebook. Because, you know, everyone was kind of on Facebook until the kids realized all their parents were on Facebook. So then of course, Mother Necessity and then 2010 and Snapchat 2012, Instagram, 2017.

00;28;53;16 - 00;29;15;16
Don Grant
Tick tock. So and on. But the 2010 was that front facing camera. How convenient. How nice of them to create this. So we can just take selfies all day long and then just migrate them immediately on the same device to our social platforms, and then just sit and wait and hope we don't go to a shame spiral because we didn't get enough likes, fire emojis or whatever.

00;29;15;16 - 00;29;32;04
Don Grant
All right. So that was the iPhone four. All right. But then we had Facetune which gave rise to filter culture. So now none of us like the way we look now. We all want to change. And it was very cute. Instagram with like the tongues coming out. And we first came out and the you can make any ear.

00;29;32;05 - 00;30;01;04
Don Grant
Oh, that was so adorable. However, we realized that with that capability came a very darker, darker part because now I've got 1617 year old female clients who are comparing and despairing with all the other girls who are doing it, and they want Botox, and they're telling me it's 17 years old, they need plastic surgery because all of these Instagram floors influencers, because when we got Instagram, Snapchat was a different animal.

00;30;01;09 - 00;30;20;20
Don Grant
But Instagram was really, in my opinion, the birth of the influencer. Now I'm going to tell you, I don't care. I can't see the people watching this so they can, you know, hate and cancel me. I want to we had we had influencers when I was in high school Amy. Oh we did. Oh yeah. We call them posers.

00;30;20;23 - 00;30;39;25
Don Grant
So where are these people. Some of the rise of the influencer with Instagram and these people with no background is suddenly directing everything we think everything we buy, everything we should do. All right. And we'll fast forward with that because then TikTok took and took and anointed the influencer. And now we got influencers. We don't even know it driving the commerce, telling us what to buy.

00;30;39;25 - 00;31;01;05
Don Grant
But they're being sponsored. So they're being pushing products they don't believe in. There's all these trends. A lot of them are dangerous. And the one that's really my cause is we've got we've got so-called influencers on TikTok who have like a shelf life of about two years. I'd love to do like a reality show influencer is 2023. Where are they now?

00;31;01;05 - 00;31;26;28
Don Grant
Right. But we've got them giving diagnoses. They're untrained, they're uncertified. They know no psychology. This is a real problem. And they're giving diagnoses to their followers with with no training. And it's not healthy and it's very dangerous. And we got these kids and I've got a 15 year old girl who comes into my office and she says, oh, hi, doctor Grant you.

00;31;26;29 - 00;31;48;29
Don Grant
Hi. Nice to meet you. So, doctor, and I'm gonna make this really easy. I already can tell you my diagnoses, and I'm, like, interesting. Let me look it. I'm sorry. I must have the paperwork wrong. It says here you've never met with a mental health person or a professional or a practitioner or never say no, I haven't.

00;31;49;02 - 00;32;06;23
Don Grant
I was like, oh, okay. But your diagnoses. Oh, yeah, I have them for you. I just want to get down to it. I said, okay, what what's going on? Okay. So I'm borderline I've got, you know, depersonalization desensitization and I'm bipolar. I've got it. They start, I'm like, whoa, whoa.

00;32;06;23 - 00;32;09;03
Amy Charlesworth
So concerning. Yeah.

00;32;09;05 - 00;32;27;10
Don Grant
I say, where did you get these, TikTok. And this is something I've talked to clinicians and practitioners across the country. We're all seeing this. And these kids are being and adults too, but they're being diagnosed or taking on self diagnoses and it's very, very dangerous. So I just had to add that in because we have to stop this.

00;32;27;10 - 00;32;32;08
Don Grant
It has to be regulated because it's it's causing a lot of problems and a lot of risks.

00;32;32;10 - 00;32;48;08
Amy Charlesworth
And throughout your research, as you've encountered things like this and obviously seeing the massive impacts that can happen to young children, caregivers, families, you know, couples, what are some device management strategies and some words of wisdom you might have for the 15 year olds among us.

00;32;48;10 - 00;33;07;10
Don Grant
But they don't want to listen to me. I got nothing for them. I can't even get my own kids to listen. You bribe them, see if you give them, you know. So here's the thing again, I don't I look at it this way. I'm not saying everybody's got a problem, right. Here's what I do. And when I do assessments, which I do, and I have created instruments and I have things that I use.

00;33;07;10 - 00;33;25;01
Don Grant
So if I'm looking in a meeting with someone, I just basically do the old standard kind of version of a clinical, bio psychosocial, biological, psychological, sociological assessment. And what I do is I say, look, it's just you and me here, I don't care. I'm not judging you. I don't have to live your life. I'm here to help you.

00;33;25;04 - 00;34;11;15
Don Grant
So let's look at your device centric behaviors and let's go through and see if any of them could be impeding, impacting or subjugating your health and success across biological. But your body, your health, your physical body, your psychological health and well-being, or your sociological health and well-being. And as we go through the behaviors and we talk about it, if we find that there might be something like, you know, maybe you're too sedentary and you never go outside and you're sitting there playing, and watching YouTube for 20 hours, and or that would be biological or psychological if you're comparing and despairing or you're being cyber regressed, there's cyber bullying going on or you're looking because

00;34;11;15 - 00;34;38;05
Don Grant
we have to realize that everything we create online is self curated and self-created. I'm going to tell you, I have friends and clients who, if you look at their social media, Amy, they are hashtag watching it. I know they're real life and it could not be more different. So I think that it's important to look at your, your device use behaviors and you want to see like what could be causing the some issues.

00;34;38;05 - 00;34;54;27
Don Grant
You can just pivot, adjust it a little bit, maybe go to bed a little early, or maybe keep your phone outside the room when you sleep. And don't leave it like a baby monitor where it can go off all night and tell you got cold cash. You can find out tomorrow. Put down the phone and start when you're with other people.

00;34;54;29 - 00;35;23;02
Don Grant
I have a whole list of strategies and skills that I have collected over the years and beta tested to see, but I think each of us, if we're really honest, we think about how often we program like Pavlov's dog to reach for that device, reach for that device. I would suggest just a simple thing. The next time you're out in public or you're standing in a line, maybe don't take your phone out and make a bid for connection with the person who's human, who's right there with you.

00;35;23;05 - 00;35;45;14
Amy Charlesworth
Absolutely. Great words of wisdom. And as you've been, going along in your career here and have done so much research and work with some incredible patients and offered lots of words of wisdom, you know, what are some of the things that are, standing out as themes for you that we can do, you know, in our society to maybe help lessen for our kids or, you know, at school or anything like that, you know, is there any isn't anything that stands out?

00;35;45;17 - 00;36;09;02
Don Grant
Yeah, sure. Well, there's so much, you know, there's a lot of, there's been a lot of legislation globally, proposed worldwide, you know, the UK has done some really good things with protecting kids online. California actually, you know, has done some things. But I really I hate to have to say this to parents or caregivers, but we cannot count on the creators.

00;36;09;04 - 00;36;37;05
Don Grant
We cannot count on the government to really, really help protect the kids online or create legislation because they're trying to do coast to coast it to them. They're talking about that it violates the First Amendment. I follow all of this state of the art in the morning, and any of this is obsolete by noon. But, I really unfortunately, I wish we could say and there's a lot of states that have put all kinds of different bans on different things, whether it's social media or whether it's, you know, online pornography or whatever.

00;36;37;05 - 00;36;48;25
Don Grant
There's different states that have really put regulations. But I just say, look, for right now, I think it's going to be up to parents and caregivers to really be the guardrails for their kids devices.

00;36;49;02 - 00;36;49;24
Speaker 3


00;36;49;27 - 00;37;15;12
Don Grant
And you have to also model the same behavior. But unfortunately, I don't think that the legislation is I mean, there's another one going on right now. We'll see. What's interesting is that we're currently in this, country. We are in a government. We have a government that is very polarized. Right. It couldn't be more polarized right now. So if one side says the sky is blue, the other side says, what's sky?

00;37;15;14 - 00;37;36;13
Don Grant
The one thing that they all agree on and have throughout the last administration. And this one is trying to protect kids online, but I just don't see that we're going to get to protection, and there's no investment or agency or reason for the developers, the creators, to do it because they want to get a AIS on these devices on their site and keep them there as long as possible.

00;37;36;15 - 00;37;57;17
Don Grant
So there's something that they just so the people know. And I think it's important because, Why do you think that people stay on these devices so long? Once once you get in there, it's like a casino. Why do you think that people stay in there so long? Like in a casino, when people would be there for hours and hours and hours?

00;37;57;17 - 00;37;58;23
Don Grant
Why? Why do you think that is?

00;37;59;00 - 00;38;16;20
Amy Charlesworth
I think, you know, it's probably, a lot of marketing firms will focus on attention span. And, you know, if they are able to, like, be so rapid and engaging and interesting, you know, change it. I, I've heard the phrase eight seconds, right. So, you know, that, it helps people retain and stay on the particular device and get.

00;38;16;22 - 00;38;38;25
Don Grant
Our attention and attention. Economy is what you're talking about. And some people consider that the most valuable asset you can get from a consumer. So they were very smart, the people who created these and they it's coming out now we know. So they were very smart when they developed them. So we got the device right. So say that you have your iPhone.

00;38;38;27 - 00;39;00;22
Don Grant
I talked about casinos and we think, oh my gosh, people go to casinos. And there's a lot of psychology that went into the original development of casinos. And then subsequently. So psychologists tried to help the owners of casinos figure out how to get the people in there and keep them there. So no windows, no clocks, give them free drinks, keep them going.

00;39;00;22 - 00;39;33;23
Don Grant
But there's a slot machine. And what's very maybe interesting is that the designers of these devices use the same flaw in our limbic system that designers of slot machines use to keep people sitting on those tools and riding the old one arm bandit. Now it's buttons forever. So it's called our chase of intermittent rewards. Variable rewards. So what it means is when you pull the handle on a slot machine, in the old days, and now you push a button, but just do this.

00;39;33;26 - 00;39;48;07
Don Grant
If it's been so, it's been what am I getting at? What am I going to get? What am I going to get? What am I going to get? Oh oh. Got it. Okay, let me do it again. And the chase. Because as humans, we love that intermittent variable rewards. We love to get to the by the Cracker Jacks.

00;39;48;08 - 00;40;04;17
Don Grant
Get to the bottom. What's the prize? I don't know. Now, if you see in the store there's so many products where it's a surprise thing. And collectibles do this collectible companies so that you never know what you're going to get, because they know that you're going to keep buying and buying, never knowing what it is. So pull the lever and the thing comes up.

00;40;04;17 - 00;40;07;24
Don Grant
So they use the same thing for for the iPhones. Wow.

00;40;07;29 - 00;40;09;06
Amy Charlesworth
So that's all.

00;40;09;08 - 00;40;25;04
Don Grant
Well think about this. When you have an iPhone. They couldn't put a handle on it but they wanted the same idea. What do they do with an iPhone? What did they use psychologically. These these designers of it. What do they do?

00;40;25;04 - 00;40;26;07
Amy Charlesworth
Notifications.

00;40;26;10 - 00;40;35;02
Don Grant
You think about this pulling a slot machine. What am I going to get one. Nothing. What am I going to get? What do we get I kind of get dopamine adrenaline.

00;40;35;02 - 00;40;37;03
Amy Charlesworth
Down scrolling scrolling. Oh, they.

00;40;37;03 - 00;40;39;01
Don Grant
Couldn't put a handle on the phone. Of course the.

00;40;39;02 - 00;40;39;15
Amy Charlesworth
Scroll.

00;40;39;18 - 00;40;48;13
Don Grant
Used the same refresh, refresh, refresh. What am I going to get? What am I going to get? What am I getting on social media? What am I going to get? I'm going to stay there forever.

00;40;48;13 - 00;40;58;18
Amy Charlesworth
Yeah, well, the age right now of consent for most apps and applications, websites, things right now it's 13 years old. What do you think? What do you think the age of consent should be?

00;40;58;20 - 00;41;16;29
Don Grant
First of all, not one size fits all. Yeah. Because I'm going to tell you, I know a lot of 16 year olds who are very capable and should be able to go and get their driver's license. And I work with a lot of them whose parents and I have decided maybe we're going to delay. This is something that I talked to the people, and I get to work with amazing people in the world on projects.

00;41;16;29 - 00;41;37;27
Don Grant
I get them so fortunate. But I've worked in this a long time and I've done this for 15 years. So, I absolutely stand firm. I've said in media, I've said to, people who are, you know, do what I do. I said, I'm, I don't think there's any age. First of all, let's just be honest. You tell and it's already we know this has been going on since the beginning.

00;41;38;04 - 00;41;57;10
Don Grant
There's no age for age verification. So you say the minimum age for an app is 13. Well, okay. Well, where is the verification eight year olds are going on and just changing the name and the birth date. So we already knew that. And they're trying to figure out how do they age verify without compromising. You know

00;41;57;12 - 00;41;57;18
Amy Charlesworth
Yeah.

00;41;57;24 - 00;42;22;10
Don Grant
I mean I laugh at that because like everybody, including Equifax, there's probably nine of me walking around with identities around the world because we've been breached. Equifax, which does credit, was breached. We've had so many breaches. I'm not condoning it, but I'm saying, oh, they're saying now that we don't want to age, verify the kids who are trying to get on these sites because we don't want to breach their privacy.

00;42;22;10 - 00;42;45;07
Don Grant
We don't have to, because again, it falls to the parents. Now the kids are going to find a way around it anyway. All we're doing is sending a message, right? So I do not believe that there is any one age 13 doesn't matter because every kid is different and sometimes they have delays in development and sometimes they have different maturity aspects.

00;42;45;11 - 00;43;06;08
Don Grant
And when their maturation process happens. So I don't believe that there should be any minimum age unless we're going to say 18, which would cause a meltdown globally. But I'll tell you, I think it's going to have to be up to the parents because my I'm going to decide for my children, because I'm hopefully going to know them, what they're ready for.

00;43;06;08 - 00;43;29;14
Don Grant
I'm going to be able to decide and should decide when my children should start getting their driver's permit and when I feel comfortable with having them drive right when you go to target. And I'm not endorsing target or for target, just they're just using an example. They have aisles and they say kids toys 0 to 3 for the, you know, they've got those hours where they kind of guide you.

00;43;29;17 - 00;43;49;25
Don Grant
Which aisle has the toys. That doesn't mean that that is for every child. So it might be that my child is would fit. And toys that are in the 3 to 5 year old aisle are great, but my child actually is so pasos. My child would be like what? Why are you giving me this puzzle? I want the eight year old kid.

00;43;49;25 - 00;44;13;14
Don Grant
Or it might be they're not ready for those toys. So I don't think that there's an age that we can say, and certainly 13 is such a weird age. It's a weird age. There's so much going on for kids. We're talking about pre or mid or post, just post puberty. We're talking newly minted teenager. We're talking about they probably just transitioned into high school.

00;44;13;18 - 00;44;30;08
Don Grant
So they've got the whole social thing to navigate. There's body things mind. There's bio psychosocial things going on. So when they say oh 13 oh I'm like, wow. That's like I don't think anything at 1313 is weird. It's weird age. Maybe it wasn't for you, but it's weird.

00;44;30;09 - 00;44;48;05
Amy Charlesworth
It was definitely weird for me. And that being said, for the parents at home that are listening to this, what are some words of wisdom that you have to help their then train their children for healthier habits around technology and, you know, maybe even words of advice for for some of us that are over 13, you know, how can we start moving towards a healthier direction?

00;44;48;05 - 00;44;48;24
Amy Charlesworth
Yeah.

00;44;48;26 - 00;45;09;02
Don Grant
Thank you. And I you know, I hate to do it to the parents, but parenting is hard. And this is going to be, this is going to be down to the parents. Here's what I would say. First thing, parents, don't be afraid of your kids. They're going to try to hold you hostage. That's their job. So parents will say to me, well, I can't, you know, negotiate with them because I've already set the rules and I've let them go too far.

00;45;09;02 - 00;45;26;18
Don Grant
And I say, okay, yeah, well, hold on, it ain't over. Even as a kid, 16 or 17, because I'm pretty confident either. Now or in the new future that kids are going to be coming, begging, pleading for the new Xboxes, the new iPhone, the new. So that's your time to renegotiate. If you don't like the way their behaviors are, because you're probably paying for these things.

00;45;26;21 - 00;45;46;18
Don Grant
So I say to parents, do not be afraid of your kids because you don't have to be a parent. It's hard. But you know, if your child is maybe spending too much time on their devices. So I say, please, we all kind of lost sight of it in the pandemic. Encourage them. Extracurriculars after school, things, getting outside interests, hobbies that are not digitally driven.

00;45;46;18 - 00;46;16;19
Don Grant
Please. The other thing is I say to parents, you need to model the behavior in them that you expect. The other thing is, and it's very important, I say I don't care, it's your family, but I think it's very important to tell your kids and let them know. The expectation is, however, ever you treat people and behave in real life, that's the expectation of how you are going to treat them and behave online, because there's a lot of things that go on online that are not cool, that.

00;46;16;26 - 00;46;35;14
Don Grant
So whatever your family values are, I think that the expectation for the child, this is the part of good digital citizenship. But I think it's very important that parents also do not put their head in the sand. And I just want to, as we wrap this up, you know, it's no one's fault. We didn't know we're digital immigrants.

00;46;35;16 - 00;46;53;25
Don Grant
This thing happened very fast. We didn't understand what it was. These devices came on suddenly in our lives and we're like, what's going on? We don't get them. And so we left them to the kids because we didn't quite understand these devices or these tamagotchis or these games. We didn't get it and we couldn't. It was too overwhelming.

00;46;53;25 - 00;47;13;00
Don Grant
As digital immigrants. So a lot of us just left the kids basically to their own devices, which we have now learned was not good. They became our digital canaries in the virtual coal mine. And then they one of these playgrounds with people and they became Lord of the flies. We don't know who was there, what they were doing, but we were not monitoring them.

00;47;13;06 - 00;47;31;28
Don Grant
What we've seen is the kids are not all right, right. All the studies since 2012 that have come out are showing the biannual psych, mental health for kids has shown that they're just getting worse. The kids aren't. All right. I don't care what the album said in 1979, this is now. I believe that social media is very contributing to this.

00;47;32;00 - 00;47;53;07
Don Grant
However, parents, you need to not be afraid. And look, if you don't know something works or a device works or a platform or an app, then that's what YouTube is for. But I don't believe you would give your kid a set of power tools, not know how they work, and say have at it. So digital immigrants and parents, I think it's very important that you know all as much as you can.

00;47;53;07 - 00;48;16;14
Don Grant
The sites your kids are going on, the platforms they're on, what are they doing there? You need to at least send the message you're interested. Ask them to, hey, can I play that with you? You'll get the patented teen eyeroll, but at least they know you're paying attention. You also need to notice that if after your child has used their device, do you notice a chronic change in them that is not favorable?

00;48;16;18 - 00;48;35;19
Don Grant
Now, I'm not saying like, you know, it happened once over a weekend when Romeo was breaking up with Juliet and they're texting, you know, but I'm saying if you start to see a chronic change but that you notice that your kid's on their device going up in their room, but then their mood changes, you might want to try to investigate what's going on on there.

00;48;35;21 - 00;48;44;17
Amy Charlesworth
Words of wisdom. Thank you so much for joining us today Don I really appreciate it. Here on discover. You can't wait to have you back again in the future. Appreciate it. Catch you next time.

00;48;44;17 - 00;48;46;02
Don Grant
Thank you. Thank you very much.

00;48;46;03 - 00;48;46;28
Amy Charlesworth
Thank you so much.