Rona Glynn-McDonald - Storytelling, Protecting Energy, and Honouring First Nations Wisdom

Were back for 2025. Join us for a powerful yarn to kick things off, with Rona Glynn-McDonald—entrepreneur, storyteller, musician, and proud Central Desert woman. As the founding CEO of Common Ground and now First Nations Futures, Rona has dedicated years to amplifying First Nations voices, sharing stories, and shifting narratives across ‘Australia.’

In this conversation, Rona reflects on her journey of stepping away from fast-paced, rigid structures shaped by a colonial mindset. She shares how she protects her energy by embracing deeper connections—with family, Country, her old people, and herself—while also rediscovering her musical talents along the way.

Guided by the wisdom of her namesake grandmother, a trailblazing traditional healer, Rona speaks on the power of sitting, listening, and honouring Indigenous ways of being. From reshaping her career to stepping into the world of DJ’ing and creative expression, her story is a testament to standing strong in Blak values, community, creativity, and reconnection.

To connect with Rona and learn more about her music, all relevant links are below:

Follow her on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/rona.ngamperle/
Or follow her passions here: https://linktr.ee/rona.ngamperle

Follow Caroline on Instagram:
@blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here.

We would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where this podcast was taped, and pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders, past, present, and emerging across Australia.

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio.
www.ontrackstudio.com.au
@on.track.studio

For advertising opportunities, please email: hello@ontrackstudio.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Podcast. Unite our voices.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio. Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Black Waddle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cal. We acknowledge the Rurundari people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today. It always was and always will be unseated Aboriginal and Taurus Red Islander land. Well, I'm so excited about my next guest. I mean, this sis I've been following for ages. I have so much admiration for an award-winning filmmaker, musician, activist, someone wearing many caps, but someone who's just really changing how we think about things in our public discourse as well. So, Rona Glenn McDonald, thank you for being on Yarning Up. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for this yarn. Oh, beautiful. Well, I guess maybe before we start, I should say happy new year. It's 2025. Um, what does the new year bring for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

I'm really trying to protect my peace this year. I think last year was a year where I started to slow down. My theme for the year was to sit, to literally sit. I had so many old people, um, elders, both from the central desert, but also in other contexts as well, being like, you need to sit down. You're being rummer now, like you're just traveling around, you're doing too much. My nana kept growling me for how much I was on planes. So last year was really about saying no to a lot of stuff to turn towards myself and my needs, grounded in the context that I'm in in um my work. And and this year, I think, is taking that even further, really protecting my peace and energy and acknowledging that for me to be able to do the work that I do and share and be expansive in the spaces that I want to be in, I have to protect my own energy. And I love that I this discourse and this language, I feel like so many more mob are using it, younger mob, older mob, but just recognizing that yeah, we have community obligations and we're in relationship with so many people, but we also need to protect our energy, and it's so beautiful what comes from that as well. I feel like the more that I sit and the more that I protect my peace and I spend that time enriching myself, the more connected I feel to people around me, my ancestors, the more knowledge that comes through me, the more knowing that I have. It's just amazing what happens and unfolds when we give ourselves space for that.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Oh so powerful. And you're right, I do feel like for the first time in a long time, we are actually grappling with the fact that yeah, our energy and our love is sacred and finite, and we have to, like you say, protect it just as much. And that our capacity to be of the collective is our capacity to be with ourselves, it's sort of like this duality of this relationship. So oof, I feel that like goosebumps, good ways. But yeah, I mean, what what is um so slowing down even further, deepening and sitting last year? What did that sort of look and feel like for you? What does it feel like to sit down? What does it yeah, what does it look like for you to just slow down? What are you doing when you're slowing down? It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

I feel like it's been different seasons that allow for it, but also seasons that are totally up against that idea of slowing down. So, yes, I did a lot of sitting, but I also did a lot of walking and running last year. And when I look at my year, it's it's these waves of I guess expanding and and being out in the world, and then actually just literally sitting at my auntie's place in the desert by myself most days writing music. So the slowing down and the sitting was a lot of literally sitting in the sun in the mornings, just taking my sweet time. I feel like for so many years I'd jump straight online, I'd be on the emails, I'd be on Zooms, I'd be yarning up straight away as soon as I got up. But uh waking up in the morning and and making a cupper and spending time to just sit in the sun as the desert sun in winter is really warming you up and and giving that energy.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

I think we forget sometimes we need vitamin D properly, like you need animals, we need that little breather just before we go out and hunt and gather and do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Our families, you know, we're in the sun all the time, and sitting behind a desk or sitting inside is not normal, like it's not the way that we're meant to get energy from the world. So that kind of literally just sitting in the sun was a big practice of mine, as well as I guess when I was spending time with family, like sitting down with my nana or my dad, doing my best to just be in that moment and be present and not not have an end point or you know, not structure that time of saying to myself, okay, I'm gonna spend you know half an hour with Nana having this cup of tea before I have to go then do this other thing, like giving space for things to evolve and emerge and having that deeper time rather than um the schedule, schedule of everything that you know I'm I'm such a um calendar gal. I love structuring my days so I can get everything done, but I really moved away from that, uh, which was really good for me. Um it's really hard, I think, for all of us, you know, with so many competing priorities and so much we want to be doing to amplify all our mob and and support all the work that people are doing in different contexts to really just give ourselves space to just sit.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Oh, I feel like there's gonna be people who are listening to this episode who are starting their year who are like this feels really resonant for them too. So I really I really appreciate you sharing. But yeah, I mean having the ability to um just retreat and take that little like just that pause sometimes can be just enough, you know. I think we feel like um that time in the sun or that cup of tea, or just like hugging your fur, baby, or we feel like it's so simple and insignificant, but when we return to those little moments, they really can make such a big deal. So thank you for sharing that, my sis. I imagine there's gonna be people walking and driving and being like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think it's beautiful and brave that we're all talking about it, you know, but normalizing it that yeah, like today's not it for me, and I'm just gonna retreat back for me and um give myself that energy and time. Beautiful. Bless you. Well, I mean, you're talking about spending time with your Nan and um family. I'd love to maybe, yeah, go back and start a little bit there and sort of understand you and your and your incredible family. You know, you come from a family of storytellers and filmmakers, but more importantly, sis, like you've just been doing the damn thing, carving out your own path. You know, I'm wondering maybe um, for those who aren't familiar with your work, if you can, you know, share a little bit about yourself and who you are and how you would introduce yourself to the world. Um, yeah, love to hear a bit more about your story.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

My name is Rona Rose Patricia, number Glenn McDonald. Many, many names. My family was so gritty, my dad and my mum. I was like, you mama, that's too many names to fit on a birth certificate. Also, it doesn't like the Medicare slot you get on the family cars.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

It is very like legal.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

It's a long last name. Um, I'm a Kaddish woman from the Central Desert. I was born on Gadigal country. My family moved down to Gadigal just before I was born, a couple of years before, and I spent my first uh seven years there. We go back to Alice a little bit, but it wasn't until I was eight. I think it was my eighth birthday when we moved back home to Mbantua in the beautiful desert. And my family have been living in town for the last couple of generations. We're what many people would call townies. We've got family and communities outside of Mbantua living um up north, closer to where we're from, which is a place called Ilinjao, a bit of scrub in the middle of the desert, which for many people is the middle of nowhere, but for me is the centre of everything. And as a young person growing up in town was really interesting, that kind of dynamic of you know, we've got family everywhere, but Adena country feels like home in many ways, even though we're visitors there, so holding deep relationship to Adena people and and that beautiful place that's got so much healing energy, but also is this big colonial frontier, right? So many regional remote areas are like that, and for me as a young person, spending a lot of my formative years there from the age of eight, it was a constant learning experience and such an enriching but also violent context to be in and also bear witness to. Um I, in terms of my professional career, I have existed across storytelling and and narrative change and economics for a number of years, and more recently, my world is shifting as I've begun telling more of my own stories and working uh across the music industry and and sharing my own music and productions in electronic music under a project called Rona with a dot at the end, Rona Dot. My love my dad loves Rona Dot.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Um because we always say you're big dot.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yeah, no, I'm like, why did I put the full stop at the end? Now I'm on Rona Dot. Um but you know, in terms of I guess my name, going back to the long ass name that my parents gave me, Rona is the name of my grandmother, one of my grandmothers, the sister of my biological grandmother. Um her name was Rona Glynn, and she was an amazing woman. She was a nunkery, which is like a traditional healer. She was also a nurse, uh, a teacher, and a midwife. And she was this incredible, gentle, tall woman like myself, and to be her namesake feels like an absolute privilege and an honor. And I feel really closely connected to her, even though I didn't get to meet her. She died giving childbirth, which was uh a massive tragedy for our family many years, many years before I was born. I have such a yeah, strong line of matriarchs like all of us, and you know, I talk about that sitting and that spending time with myself. I feel like in creating that space over the last couple of years I've become so much more connected to her energy and story, uh, which has been so powerful for me and my journey. I feel really sad that I never got to meet her, but so thankful that such a pioneer and an incredible uh woman is part of my story and our family history. So that's my first name. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

That that energy and legacy lives on within you always. So beautiful. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Yeah. Um yeah, in terms of I guess who I am as a person, I've existed across many spaces, and um my work for a lot of this journey has been centered around amplifying the stories and perspectives and voices of our communities across this continent and surrounding islands through my role as founding CEO at Common Ground, which is a First Nations storytelling not-for-profit, and that was my first kind of start out the gates in terms of uh carving out a space um that felt like something I was doing, you know, in relationship to my family's work in storytelling, but also doing it in my own way outside of the the space that they hold across film and TV.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Um and then I guess beyond that work, there's been um some other innovative things that I feel really thankful to be involved in. But I've had a bit of an interesting journey in life with lots of tops and topsy turvy moments in terms of you know where I started and where I am now. I actually started in studying economics, which um feels quite far from the world that I'm in today. Thinking back on that, I'm like, wow, that's just wild that I ended up at like an insanely um wealthy university and you know, going to uni with all these kids from rich schools and places across the world, learning about economic systems. It's um feels like a lifetime ago.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Wow. Gee, it's so deadly to hear, yeah, I like about your family and your story and and the matriarchy and the legacies and I guess all your many talents and and passions. Um there's something so sacred about mob names, hey, because I think yeah, we do tend to carry um either like yeah, last names or family names. Um, and I love it. I mean, I as we're talking off off air, I'm um, I'm pregnant, I'm 18 weeks pregnant, and we've been thinking about having four names for our baba. Um, because we're trying to cram as many families in there as possible as well. So um it's really beautiful to hear that and that beautiful nod to the many stories um that make you who you are. Um and wow, I mean it's interesting to hear that yeah, you started out in economics and went on to start common grounds, um, you know, First Nations future. Now you're sort of you know, in filmmaking, sharing music, um, in all these many like beautiful, multifaceted spaces. It's um yeah, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

It's a bit wild to think about how I ended up in economics. You know, I'm I often reflect on I guess living and growing up in this world in Mbantua where you see such gross injustice and you you know, either you're experiencing it or your family are. I think as a as a white passing Kaddish woman, there was a lot that I bore witness to rather than you know, um would experience it I'd go to the shops with my cousins who'd have a really different experience getting followed by security guards or whatever that might look like in terms of the violence of the day that you're in. Um but I'm kind of getting through alright, which was a really um, you know, it's a unique experience. And also you recognize and you feel that privilege growing up, and you know, like for me, I wanted to use that I guess privilege and proximity that I had to whiteness to be able to um, you know, change systems from within and look at the structures of uh violence and oppression and the structures of colonialism and and what opportunities there were to shift those systems. And I think the really formative time for me was particularly in my in high school when I had an economics teacher called Mr. Mummy who was teaching us about demand and supply and wealth and you know GDP and productivity, all these lofty terms to talk about the way that people come together and exchange.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And it just didn't make sense to me. It didn't make sense to me in terms of the way that it was laid out and how it didn't center the the way that our communities negotiate our relationships and the way that our communities exist in relationship to one another. So, you know, there was no reciprocity, there was no balance, there was no um centering of community aspirations in the way that we'd learn and talk about this stuff, and made me wild, but also made me want to learn more. You know, my earliest memories when I was in Alice at my dad's house, there were stories and you know, these moments of you know, you get the knock on the door, we're there at a house in Gillen and at my dad's place, and a dilpy walk would walk in, an old man who you know I'd probably never met, like from come from remote community, come from Murray Downs or Aileron, and was visiting in town and come to say hello to Dad and sit down and they'd have a cup of tea and a big yarn and they'd sit there for a couple of hours yarning, and at the end you'd see Dad slides over a hundred dollars in cash, and that old man would walk off and he'd then pick up the phone and call one of my aunties and be like, Hey sis, you got any money? I don't I don't have any. And you see that moment of reciprocity where dad had received that benefit, had that cash from a job or whatever it may be, and I knew that you know someone else was out of balance, needed that money, and had handed that on, and he'd always be looked after by someone else, and that trust in community relationships and that trust in our values and ways of reciprocity to always keep balance and seek balance was so powerful. And as I studied economics and learnt about it, and learnt about I guess utility and this idea that people only exist to have more, do more, and be more. Which is just not true, and it shouldn't be true. It is true for some people, but you know, our mob and our many nations and cultures have always centered that care for each other, that seeking to be in relationship and to hold balance for thousands and thousands of years. And so I went off to study at university to learn more about that way of thinking that colonial systems and economic systems was really perpetuating. And I I went to university in Melbourne on Run Tree Country, wanting you know, many answers, but I think I probably left with more questions, and it was a really formative time for me, particularly learning about not just economic systems, but starting to connect with social change community who I guess in learning about how systems work, I began to realize that they're just made up of individuals, like the economic system is just made up of a whole lot of individuals that decide it's gonna be that way because we perpetuate and create the space for it to be that way, and individuals only act and behave based off the mindsets that they hold, and the mindsets that they hold all come back to storytelling. Like, if you have a mindset that we have to have more, do more, and be more, then you're gonna perpetuate harm and creating a capitalist economic system. But if you've got a mindset that's centered around reciprocity and care for community and First Nations values, then a system's gonna look really different. So I came back to it and realized that storytelling is at the heart of shifting futures for not only our people but all people as well, and and re reimagining what mindsets we hold into the future, knowing that since 1788 the systems here have been built off colonial violence, off storytelling that was inherently colonial, off non-Indigenous mindsets, and we needed to shift by creating more spaces for our voices to be heard and amplified, for our mob to be able to tell stories on our own terms and and ensure that our stories aren't just heard but they're acted upon, and in our futures we have all of our young people strong in their culture, strong in their storytelling, so that we can um self-determine our own futures and and live our best lives. So that's a bit that's a bit of the yarn, I guess, of why how I ended up in economics, and you know, it's been interesting because now that work in economics has kind of given me a little bit of legitimacy working in the funding space and trying to shift resources and power back to mob and you know, do things like wealth back and create more pathways for the redistribution of stolen wealth and wages. And I think when you can say, Oh, I've got an economics degree, people in um big groups. Rooms listen to you. But other than that, it was so formative, I guess, in this journey of understanding like what my theory of change and role was in trying to shift these systems to better center our values and aspirations and voices.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Wow, so fascinating. It's so so incredibly fascinating to hear some of those really pivotal shifts in your thinking and I guess decolonizing our studies in which we learn. I mean, I think most people in societies now, most um inverted commas, are I guess thinking about themselves in relation to a post-colonial neoliberal capitalist society. I know where in my circles, especially as a black business owner, I mean, something that's so a title that is so new to me. Like there's no one in my family who owned a business. And so I think we're all sort of thinking about those things that you say that that we possess as blackfellas, which is yeah, working in relation to and sharing of resources and um I guess trying our best to challenge that myth that scarcity is a lie and creates that that sort of neat, like that neoliberal, competitive, hyper-individual way. And it's an interesting paradox, I feel like, too, though, because as a black business owner, like we I see um, you know, for many of us, it's like trying to get out of the struggle and trying to get out of like lift ourselves out of poverty and and help our families along the way. Um, it's not a like a singular process, and we're coming into these spaces with no wealth, no resources. I mean, in terms of wealth, um and but but those values, and those values will sustain us, I think. That is what sustains our business. Um, you know, it's just such an interesting conversation, I think, for us to have around especially our relationship with labor and wealth and the economy. And I think so many people that I yarn with on this show and in my circles sort of all almost like had to go to university to learn the colonial way and then to unlearn it, unbecome it, rewrite it, and do it in their own ways, which you have, which you very much have in two of your, I guess, ventures and under this guise of storytelling, and now more recently in I think what we call a circular economy, perhaps. So I want to, if we can, go through a couple of things. Like, this is the side of a new year. Last year was hugely transformative. Um, and I just want to talk through maybe some of the things you've done, and you know, not in terms of the accolades as such, but some of the lessons these things have taught you because you're leading the way in so many spaces. So, you know, you um you started your business, um, Common Grounds, which is um, you know, really around storytelling and like you say, not just hearing but enacting the change. And yeah, last year you did what many of us talk about in community, which is step down as CEO and hand on the button and um yeah, I guess build, create, pour, and then um create a sustainable business that can be handed on, which is in the spirit of this whole thing we're talking about, which is around um reciprocity and giving back to. So I wonder if maybe we could start there, and then I'd love to hear about your latest business venture, First Nations Future, which is like such a powerful, incredible initiative. But yeah, common ground, how did it come to be? What led you to the decision of stepping down? Um, yeah, can you share with us a bit more, Marsis?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

It's been an amazing year and many years in the works to get to that moment. From my perspective, I never like being at the center of things, and I only hold space in something when I know that my knowledge, capacity, or energy is needed, and there's a time when that ends. Yeah, as well as I think that in our work we always have to be making ourselves redundant. If we're not, what are we doing? Yeah, I think our young people have such amazing capacity. All of our roles should be about building other people up so that they can step into spaces where you no longer stand. Yeah, and that's inherently been the way that I've always operated. And common ground, yes, I'm the founder, but common ground has been the work of so many amazing people in developing that not-for-profit. We've got an all First Nations team and board, and so early on, I was already planning and paving the way for when I could step back and have someone step in. Gemma Paul, who's taken over the CEO role, she was our second hire, and she's such an amazing woman. And being able to back her to grow in the ways that she wanted to grow over the last few years and get to a point where I'm no longer needed in that context, has been amazing. As well as a a year later, after we hired Gemma, we hired Katina Valestro, who has become our COO, and we've been working so hard to reimagine what a structure of leadership can look like, of women's leadership can look like in a not-for-profit organization, and not create this reliance on one person, but this web of many people that are holding that leadership and creating the strategy and vision for the way forward, and it's that network and that energy and tapestry that creates so much strength. And I think, like, particularly in the not-for-profit sector, and it's similar in you know, in the business context as well, that there's this kind of obsession with like magical founders and individual CEOs, and you know, the buck stops with someone, and yeah, I think that that doesn't work for a lot of contexts, and particularly with the way that we all want to exist in this world, which is that well, actually, I don't know if everyone does, but for me, I'm like, I don't want to be in the grind constantly, and I want to be able to be responsive to my energy, but also what's going on in my community and family to be able to come in for seasons of big energetic work, but also then retreat and um put my energy elsewhere, and you can only do that when you create a networked leadership model, and it's not perfect, and we're still testing it out. Um, you know, I'm no longer the CEO, but I'm supporting the team, working a day a week at the moment to just make sure that they're able to carve out their own space and thrive in the roles that they have. But it's been really beautiful, and I feel like I don't haven't reflected on it enough. This kind of moment of the season of my leadership ending and the season starting and and growing for other people. It's been special, and I imagine this kind of model will be something that I always want to replicate. As I said, like I don't like being at the center of everything, and I just think seasons change, and I'm always evolving as a person. And you know, these things that I've been part of starting and um have been about addressing a problem and and trying to create something that community needs, but um, once it's there, I want it to flourish without me.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah, gosh, you're right. There's so much that you say there. Like I think that the the non-for-profit or the yeah, that magical founder, as you say, it does, it's sort of you think of like um startup, hustle, grind, you know, and it's the bell curve of all of that. And you're right, in Aboriginal communities, we divulge power to our people. And I'm I'm like you, sis. I I say I love being in the black ground or the black up. I think you know, I think I just thrive in a space where we're working collectively, sharing collective wisdom as opposed to I've never really wanted to place myself as some expert or master. But yeah, I think it's a beautiful thing what you've done, sis. I think we talk about that a lot. I see it a lot in spaces where, you know, some people are just maybe in the space too long with. Yeah, you're crusty now. Move on. Like, yeah, I think you know, we really do have to be thinking about building something and that idea of letting it go and it being reshaped and redefined by new energy, new life. Like the the young people that are coming up are just incredible. And so it's sort of like it demands a bit of self-work, I think, to be able to let go and not be um have our identity or even our ego or whatever attached to the thing. And so, yeah, I really commend you on that and what you created there at Common Ground. Um, I know for me when I started my business, it was sort of like, yeah, if we could aspire to be like any other business, it was you mob, you know, leading the way in that space because you just brought everyone along and really yeah, modeled that ethos. I guess what you're talking about, like your old man. Bless you.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Balance and collective work has to be collective. If it isn't, it just it fails and it fails so miserably. Um and the strength that comes from that collectivity is is the reason that I get up in the morning or I jump on a Zoom or I go to a meeting. The most enriching moments I have in the work is always when I'm in relationship with other people. It's in the room, it's facilitating, or it's I guess like the biggest joy I've had in the experience of all of the work that I've done is honestly seeing other mob grow in themselves and see their growth in themselves, just that beautiful moment when someone you know goes from not seeing themselves as a storyteller to them being so strong, calling themselves a storyteller and being out and loud and proud, or seeing a team member um really grow in their confidence in a skill set. Like, I just love that shit. We've always worked with young people, it's powerful, and you know you're showing up in the right way when you see that flourishing of both for someone. So I it's interesting now. I'm you know moving more into music, I'm really deeply thinking about how can I continue that important space that common ground and First Nations Futures has held in that spark for me, which so far, you know, doing workshops with like people in the central desert and sharing DJ knowledge or skills or production, like giving mob feedback on their tracks, like um and seeing their growth when you tell them how deadly they are. Like, I just not that I'm you know, I'm not like some bloody elder or that established in music yet, but I think it just takes one person, you know, to really believe and back someone for them to be able to see that within themselves and and feel that strength within themselves. And I I do think that an important part of the role that I'll continue to play in people's lives is is that person to really um you know, like look someone in the eye and say, now you've got this, like you've got it, you know, you've got that special something in storytelling, or you know, you're your music's amazing, and um those moments are just so powerful for people, and I've had so many people who've done that for me. So yeah, I guess I'm always just trying to be a bloody good human A. Just showing up for other people, backing people.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

We'll be back, you mob, right after this short break. Yeah, and it's so, I mean, it like it kind of, you know, not to oversimplify it, but it sort of circles back to the first point you said about when you were sitting with your nan or whatever. Like, does sometimes mob just need that presence to be heard and held in the space and be like, like you say, just g them up and be like, yeah, this is a brilliant idea, or how do we do this? It sounds deadly, or just whatever it is for them to believe in themselves because everything in the you know neoliberal colonial world tells us that we actually it takes us so far out of ourselves and our own intuition and our own black knowing that sometimes just sitting in with someone and being like, Yeah, let's fucking do this, is like, yeah, I I feel that, I feel that energy too. And um, we we need spaces where we can just yeah, cultivate that because mob is so inherently creative and entrepreneurial and loving and generous. Um sometimes it's just that the presence of a juicy yarn or exploring an idea or making yourself available um can be enough. So yeah, wow. I mean, so special. I mean, how how how do you um how does one go or pivot from yeah, common grounds into First Nations futures? And for people who don't know what this initiative is, um, can you share about it? What's the ethos? What are you hoping to achieve? Um, yeah, what impact do you hope that First Nations Futures has? And tell us a little bit about it if that's all right.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah. So First Nations Futures is First Nations-led not-for-profit, creating pathways for all people to redistribute wealth and power to our mob, to community-led initiatives with a focus on young people, uh, cultural revitalization and country. And it's a collective piece of work that I've been part of for five years. Uh, I have a co-founder, Louis Mocac, and an amazing board, and so many incredible mob who've contributed on this journey as well. And it really was born out of, I guess, this collective conversation that many of our families have been having of the story of wealth across this continent and surrounding islands. And in my experience, I guess how I came to the conversation more recently was through that story in economics, but also through the process of starting common ground and beginning to interact with the big bad world of philanthropy. And this world that I'd never interacted with, a lot of people from where I'm from don't interact with. You know, a lot of our community orgs have been receiving government funding for many years that's constantly changing its tune and defunding and then refunding and just cooking any kind of self-determination or leadership on the ground. Yeah. And in the work of starting common ground, I went to Melbourne University and I was going to college with young people from some very wealthy families, and was really lucky in that the relationships that I built in that context meant that I was able to start getting connections into philanthropy to people's parents who wanted to redistribute wealth and wanted to fund something in the First Nations context but didn't know what to fund, or they had trust in me because they knew me. And that was great for common ground, but it really sat funny in me the kind of journey that I went on in terms of engaging with philanthropy and recognizing that you needed to have proximity to power, privilege, and whiteness, and often an urban context to be able to get access to funding. And you know, the way that I look, the way that I present, the trust that people had through the relationships that I held, all things that meant like tick, tick, tick, you can have money.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Um, which is like inherently cooked, right? When you think about um the inequity that that kind of system then breeds when you know I'm trying to keep a door open and introduce family in a remote community or in in central desert back to these funders, and because of what people were doing, or because of the way people presented, um, because they talk different to me, because they don't have a fancy deck, like all these things meant that doors kept getting shut and it was uh big moments of colonial violence, really, that I kept experiencing where I'd be like, you know, and you should meet these mob, and they'd be like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, nah, I'm not gonna meet them. And it just made me so angry, so so so angry. And I began to see that this big world of philanthropy is one of the foundational systems of the colony, it's right. You've stolen wealth, you've stolen labour, you've extracted from country, you've built your wealth off stolen land, and then you're going to then decide how the money's redistributed, you're gonna do it in harmful ways, you're gonna only give 0.5% to First Nations areas, and um I just saw the need to completely flip that system and the need to begin growing this yarn to spaces that weren't talking about pay the rent movements, to spaces that needed to really look at where wealth had come from and begin redistributing. And I guess the work started in 2020 during the Black Lives Matter movement or moment when we saw a huge influx of capital come into First Nations orgs and community groups, and it was amazing seeing that flow of capital, but it stopped after a week. I remember looking at Common Grounds Donations page, and we got a huge amount of money through in a week, and then it went back to business as usual, like five hundred dollars a quarter, nothing coming through those those flows, and as well as you know, it shouldn't be up to white fellas to decide where the money goes, it should be on our own terms and driven by First Nations leadership, not um, you know, so many people fund spaces that aren't led by our mob that are black clad. There's you know, there's spaces that critically need funding and spaces that receive a lot of funding, and that inequity continues. So we started co-creating the model in 2020, and it just started with Yarns Online. I was locked down in in NAM at the time, and we just started yarning to people. We got on these Zooms, we were talking to the most amazing established leaders, elders, young people, community members all across the continent and surrounding islands, and just started with you know, what's your story of wealth on your country? What needs to change, what solutions are needed, and we started this co-creation process that eventually landed in a signing off of the model with a strategic workshop with about 30 mob in the room, um online, it was all online, uh, back in 2021, I think, or 2022, and then we launched the model last year, and essentially what we've started with is a a platform where we partner with organizations and initiatives that align to our impact model, which we co-created with all these mob over time, and and then we get people to redistribute to them, directly to them. And that kind of the money that comes through our platform is split across our partners, and our vision is to grow the partners over time, so we've got regional diversity, there's people working in all different intersections of community work, grassroots work, and operating at different scales, and they're able to get unrestricted funding from First Nations futures that supports them to just meet their aspirations and be able to determine where the money goes in their own on their own terms, on their own lands, and we get out of the way and just really trust those mob to do the work and completely flip the philanthropy model. So we've had yeah, an amazing journey over the last year in the public um realm since we've launched. And yeah, when did we launch? 2023. Oh my gosh. Feels like so long ago. But I think this work isn't just about the money flows, it's also about the language and campaigning around you know, the need to redistribute wealth. And yeah, we've been running campaigns to support I guess that shifting of language, but the starting of conversation as well. Um, talking about philanthropy is not a handout or a hand up. It's actually your obligation, if you live on stolen land, for all Australians, mums, dads, individuals, and the upper end of town and corporates and business to be doing this. So we've created a pathway for people to do that, but it's also about growing that narrative so that more people do it, and not just through First Nations futures, through all kinds of contexts, right? There's other First Nations-led funding platforms. There needs to be many more at, you know, every kind of sector and every kind of area in every kind of region, and it needs to be led from community from the ground up. So it's been interesting some of the reflections. I had a yarn with a black fella last year who was like You mob really out there, like. using some pretty strong language and it's doing good for me because this person's trying to raise funding for something that's probably um less hard for non Indigenous people to grapple around language, you know? Um they're doing amazing work. But he was like you're pushing this this language and this narrative that then makes it easier for me to kind of pick up some of the the people that are shifting in their thinking and recognizing that they've got to redistribute more and redistribute now and do it on mob mob's terms. So it's been yeah beautiful to see I guess the impact of some of that narrative change work which is so important.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Comes back to storytelling right yeah wow yeah God and it's such a it's a such an important story for this country to have isn't it about um the acquisition of power and and and money and resources and and the dissonance of perhaps how that has been acquired. So good on you I guess for starting to really think about that philanthropic space. I mean yeah I want to sort of ask you know as a little bit of a follow-up to that like for people who might not know um I think we talk a lot like we have on this show particularly I've had some uh really wonderful guests uh Benny up and Tendalo is also really passionate about these conversations um and others around yeah like the the no the notion of stolen wealth in this in so-called Australia and how um so many of our mob have um yeah not been paid or compensated uh for their labour and it still very much continues today um considering how much of the non-traditional roles we take on um unpaid labour through activism organizing uh kinship care um in direct response of of colonial violence um but you know what do we know about the philanthropic space like how much money are we talking do you reckon exists in these spaces and are are you seeing the shifts in how the philanthropic space want to engage with black followers and black issues um or do you think that there's still such a long way to go because when we can get off I'm just quoting my aunnies here you know my my family when we can get off that welfare titty and we can start making money as she would say um and we can just do our own business and this is why this in organization is so important. You know I work with organizations like Pay the Rent and Darduar and when they don't have that bureaucratic red tape and the reporting and the administrative and yeah like you say being colonized in a very sophisticated way through service agreements and grants and things they can do incredible work with communities.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

So yeah what are we seeing in the philanthropic space and are we seeing a change and how much money do you reckon we're talking there's so much money it's insane they're just scraping little bits off the top too yeah it's pretty wild at the moment they say that 0.5% of philanthropy is going to First Nations areas let alone First Nations led organizations and initiatives and I don't know the magnitude of that that's I think that's in the hundreds of millions um gonna fat check that but there's like a trillion dollar transfer happening right now between baby boomers and the next gen of inheritance when you think about that alone and younger people's values around climate around indigenous leadership and biodiversity around First Nations justice there's a huge opportunity in terms of that capital flow and being able to support people but also agitate people to redistribute when those flows are made um I think there's a really interesting opportunity in the next few years to look at individuals young people yeah like our peers and so getting this money from their wealthy parents and acknowledging like yeah there's all these sophisticated family uh foundations and these big entities set up in philanthropy that are all you know building their gammon advisory groups and slightly changing their policies and starting to give a bit in the First Nations area but they're not really up there for um doing this work at scale like there's very few foundations that are doing this work well and um we've done a lot of work in philanthropy going to conferences building relationships and there's some amazing family foundations out there that are you know for example moving their board to an all first nations board and creating a first nations foundation where a white fellow's just gone I've got all this money I want to give it over to Mob to redistribute it. That's sick but there's not too many people doing that there's a lot of people just paying lip service and creating a strategy where they give to First Nations areas but not doing it in hugely scaled ways and what we need is hugely scaled ways to get off that welfare titty get off that welfare titty. It is exhausting work like I I spend a lot of time trying to agitate and build relationships in these spaces and constantly get let down by these philanthropists. There's a couple that are really in our corner but there's a lot that are just talking big game honestly talking big game and I think post referendum this is the devastating impact of what happened in that so many funders started giving to First Nations areas for the first time in the referendum so many people supported in the referendum which was amazing and you know awesome that people rallied behind it but because it didn't get the result that they expected yeah now they're going oh oh well like I don't know I we just don't know where to put money now because we've um you know we've put so much money in there and we have no more money left and I'm like fucking bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah as if the issues still exist.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Yeah there's so much you can fund there's you should be funding more you should be funding more storytelling more advocacy that's the reason why we didn't get it up you know like all those issues around storytelling and all those issues around campaigning and community led movements rah rah rah but um you know it is still a big bad world and in that space and if I'm completely honest as an organization at First Nations Futures and in terms of my own individual energy yeah I'm focusing less on that upper end of town focusing more on you know how do we build more narratives in social enterprise in corporate Australia with individuals because we have millions of people that can redistribute imagine if every Australian redistributed$10 a week.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah yeah that tax like even like a small percentage of the GDP like we're all eating good so uh um yeah and I think you know with with governments the looking down the barrel of a federal election this year with Dutton and I guess um just yeah economic collapse not to sound terrifying but just like really tightening our budgets we really do need to sort of shift the narrative and have conversations in community about what does building community look like independent of governments and so um I really commend the efforts that your organization is taking and like you say like that that organ um that Blackfellow said you know just giving us also the language and framing and permission to have a conversation about yeah the acquisition of wealth in this country and how it intersects with our ability to make choice um our agency our health um our ability to actually determine our futures um we we need we need some of that money we need some of that money honey so love it it's interesting though Caroline I feel like you know I started in the space of storytelling it's still a through line it's like common ground you know is this mechanism to amplify our voices and mob so that Australia is less racist and colonial and cooked and then First Nations futures is like once those people are more connected in relationship to our storytelling and they've shifted their mindsets and values then they can redistribute through First Nations futures.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

That's kind of like this perfect flow right of the the theory of change as well he's like a a a nice funnel in terms of funnel and you know my theory of change is always changing as well acknowledging that we need so many different solutions and approaches to be able to solve all of the challenges that our communities face but to be honest this like begging for money and redistribution of wealth I'm starting to get exhausted by it and I'm like we just you know it's a business space I'm like the the building up of black business is just such a powerful way to be able to build our own wealth base. So maybe that's my next move is coming into that space acknowledging that we need you know Blackfella led startup unicorns and we need to be our own philanthropists.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Think tanks for other black entrepreneurs who are starting don't have the framework they've got the vision they've got everything ready to go but sometimes might not have the framework or the all the means financially I think yeah I I know for myself um nothing gives me greater satisfaction than knowing that I'm carving out um something for for me and my family of course but um that I'm not working in the Western paradigm I'm adjacent to it you know I don't have to go to a nine to five and um and it gives me that choice that freedom as a black sovereign woman to put my energy into my community where I see fit. And so I think you're right we definitely and we are seeing a huge explosion of Aboriginal businesses um because we're probably all just a bit fed up of of working in this sort of relationship with with whiteness. So yeah I mean the future looks promising in that space um and I yeah I could only imagine the toll it would take in sort of begging and pleading with colonizers to reconcile their their privilege um when they're so comfortable there. Yeah well I want to sort of flip a little bit um a little narrat like a little shift I guess in the narrative of this storytelling evolution from yourself and um that's probably just yeah in a innately within you and you know thinking about how you shifted that into music storytelling and what do you so like it must be a pretty vulnerable thing because you mentioned before you kind of like to build and sort of stand back so to speak and now here you are putting out your craft and your music um to the worlds which is a very solo uh venture so yeah keen to hear about your music last year you released burn which uh burn it sorry um which is a very powerful way to you know uh talk about the story of the colony and uh the colony burning um uh and so yeah you released burn you played your first boiler room set um yeah what have been the sort of moments of I guess joy and doubt and surprise along the way in putting yourself out there into the world and and this sort of new medium of storytelling for you it's been a really interesting journey that I'm often reflecting on and grappling with around that space of sharing my own creations and my own storytelling when I think about like a lot of my family role like you know who I've learnt from my mum, my dad my brother my grandmothers I feel like our family often you know they might be directing a film but it's often supporting storytelling that might not be our own story or it's um yeah being that kind of in the black ground in some ways.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

You know making cool shit to happen but not being like right in the center and um you know I'd say my dad loves the fame a little bit now. His ego's gotten thing but that's not inherently who he is you know like good ways but um yeah there's that little bit of shaming in the spotlight like that it just doesn't feel supernatural and it you know wasn't how I was raised. I was raised to sit quietly and reflective and um yeah go go about things in slow and intentional ways which I'm trying to bring that kind of way of operating and who I am in that way into music. And but that's not how the music industry works. Like the music industry wants you to be shamelessly self-promoting which is awesome. I fucking love that. Like I think it's incredible how people feel really comfortable doing that and they it's part of building a profile in music and people do really well at it but for me it feels really unnatural to be um yeah doing that kind of intense promotion but also to be constantly like pushing out more stuff. You know we've started this gun talking about seasons of sitting and then being out in the world and retreating and that way of operating in the modern music context is in conflict with how things work. Yeah in terms of like it's very much like you must produce now you must create here you must be on another bus another bus another club another club another club another mix another mix another TikTok another TikTok be more have more do more. That would be challenging it is challenging and I think particularly like when you're referencing like success around you of your peers and looking at I guess a lot of non-Indigenous artists and the way that they're breaking and that relentlessness that grind yeah um in the self-promotion but also in the creation and in in it in all of it yeah it doesn't feel like the way I want to go about that process and so I've been grappling with that I guess as well in you know last year I had some writing periods where I'd sit down on country and just write and I've been really focused on in everything and this is something that I talk about a lot with the team at Common Ground and I have for years is that we must focus on the process of something over the output of something and what makes something inherently black to me is about the process beyond like not not actually the output it's about what is that journey of collaboration or that journey of creation that we've gone through to get to something that is then shared. And the moments of laughter and the moments of relation relationship that um lead to it and I've been really focused on that in the process and in the last year when I'm writing for example like I'm writing at the moment something that's really centered on knowledge and healing that I've learned and I'm I'm learning. That's kind of the the themes one of you know the kind of core themes of the next body of work that I'm creating at the moment and focusing on creating from a place of healing and stillness and sitting it's been just so powerful to kind of push back a little bit around what's expected in the industry and take my time like take my sweet ass time. Yeah urgently patient right but it was an amazing year for putting myself out there like doing the boiler room which really like lit a fire under me in in many ways to know that I had this broadcast thing one of the I guess career major kind of moments that a DJ or producer can have it was the scariest thing I think I've ever done it was the most nervous I've ever been which is wild to think that you know I can stand up at a conference and speak in front of 1500 people and yes I'll be a bit nervous but I'm like I've got this yeah but going into a boiler room I had so much self-doubt like I've never had before I just wasn't feeling strong and I think I was really focused on like how other people had done it before and um being much more external and and trying to I guess learn from what had worked to then create my own set which was the wrong way to go about it. I should have sat down with my dad and he would have told me like he told me recently he was like Rona you've got 6000 years of rhythm in your body like you've got this yeah yeah come back to what you know come back to what you know and who you are and I think I got there in the end with the boiler room but um you know it was three months of freaking out like so much acne it was wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

I mean you you slay the boiler room and for everyone of us who were watching people like yourself or or Nay or Sky there it's like it feels such a moment that you get to share with us all too so um you slayed it and but I can imagine the nexus I guess of yeah having this ethos about collectivism and then being like it feels like kind of vulnerable to put this like put your art out into the world and be like here I am I am now that's you I'm a business I'm the business now you know it's like it's not like oh yeah this board up board you know me and the board you know created this song it's like that was just me yeah and so and that's possibly why so many people would just shy away from it. So you know going through that sort of uncharted territory and being uncomfortable and for everyone who's at those sets and at the gigs and listening get to sort of experience the the the gift of your talent um yeah it's such a it's such a beautiful sort of um lesson to share for all of us just like fear the fear and do it anyway but yeah it's terrifying as fuck I imagine so yeah wow wow what a what an evolution you have continue to go on through in all these beautiful seasons it's kind of like and I feel like you're still at the start of everything you're so you're such a young person really in this but you're such an elder in so many ways like you know in terms of your your Murray and your spirit it's like wow um it's just incredible I mean I I also heard something in there which I don't know if I'm picking up but yeah it's like it's like everything you've done is sort of challenging the status quo and weigh things how they should be but yeah if there's a way to slow down and be intentional with music and also maybe a way to collaborate with some people along the way um to bring in that collectivism in the space.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

I mean if you could like rapid fire off the cuff collaborate with anyone right now who do you think you would today yeah this is random Paul Mack which no one's gonna know who Paul Mack is he's like one of the pioneers in the Australian electronic context and I just found out recently he did this amazing album with some Noonga singers and he supported them to like create a whole lot of dance tracks and I just think I'm really interested he's also a professor of music at Sydney University. He's a white fella as far as I know I've never seen a photo of him I just know he's amazing he just feels energy through music that's someone who I'm really interested to meet that's really really random but um I oh this is actually really sad don't make me cry don't make myself cry I want to collaborate with our old people that have yeah gone to rest with their songs and um that just makes me really sad I guess the timeline that I live in I'm here for a reason but we've only got a few K-Ditch singers left and we lost a K Ditch singer uh last year and yeah like for women I'm talking about women because that's kind of you know I relate to women and um just thinking about my great grandmother Topsy you know she's a singer and I'm like fuck I want to collaborate with you yeah um how special what you and in in this journey of the work that I've been doing in music like I feel like I'm constantly trying to push towards this threshold of artistry that I'm not quite at. Like my aspiration is always beyond where I'm able to meet my aspiration and um there's this gap and one of those major gaps is around rhythms and melody and songs that um our family have had but no longer hold. And I've been doing a lot of language work and supporting a whole lot of work out on KDH country for the last few years with old people, and it's been predominantly focused on um animals and kinship and ethnobiology, and we haven't quite gotten to the song bit. We've been really focused on plants and animals and that knowledge. And yeah, to collaborate with some of these old ladies on song, it's you know, it's a journey to get to the time when that's the right time to do something. You can't push, you know, like you can't push for this stuff. It's got to happen in its right moment and evolve and in intentional ways, but also just you know, that's a kind of sitting down, you know, it happens in the right moment when you've done the sitting. So um, I guess the collaborators that I really want to work with are are those old people who um have some songs, but also we've got some songs that are recorded that you know, my dream is to do some song song camps and support some of those old ladies to remember as well some of these songs, and there's shared songs across, you know, sitting with Walprey ladies and what ladies from other places that have some of the songs that we're connected to. So they're the collaborator.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

I feel like I'm gonna cry and get a bit of goose song. I'm not even gonna blame my hormones because it just thinking about that as a process is like so beautiful, and also like that giving back to for them to have that archive and story played back for them is really would be so powerful. Gosh. I mean, I think if there's anyone who's gonna weave the baskets of all the things, it's gonna be you, my sis, you know, bringing your many passions and and and staying true to you and your culture and your cultures and your um your legacies along the way. So I can't wait to see what's in store for you next day. Um, it really does feel like just the beginning, and you'll navigate this nexus. We know you will. You'll navigate it, my sis. I could sit and talk to you for hours, literally. I'm like, I'm thinking this probably got a million other things to do, but we're I think we are in the slowdown season. I've got a couple more questions and then I'm gonna let you go. Yeah. And you know, I I feel like I have to ask this question for all the sisters who listen, my aunties on my family chat, and we know. Um, and I feel like yeah, I'd get a bit of a um sky five if I didn't. But your hard launch with Tony Armstrong, you mob, um I was reading through and have been called by the Herald's Sun, Australia's hottest couple, um, which I love because I love black love, I tell you. I love black love. I love love, but I love black love. I just want to ask you, you know, um, yeah, how do you mob balance being in the public eye? And I was also reading in one of the articles um that the time you and that you do have together or your relationship in and of itself is sacred. I mean, can you can you share with us anything about the relationship? The most surprising or beautiful thing you guys have learned in being together. Um, and yeah, any other tea for the arts.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

I think he's inherently really private. Yeah. I am too. Yeah, and it's been an interesting journey to protect that sacredness of our relationship and also our journey and evolution together, but also share glimpses with the world, and I want to share a whole lot sometimes, and then other times I'm like, I want to share nothing, and yeah, um, it's nice to keep things to yourselves, though. I imagine it is part of it all, but also I want to share I guess more sides of us as we come together. I think it's uh been such a special journey for us getting to know each other, but also I've never felt so seen by a person in my life, it's pretty wild. Actually, my mum probably sees me in in really deep ways that I won't acknowledge, you know. But um, yeah, so seen by someone, I think he feels that too, and it's been such a special time in that we've just held each other in facing some of our you know deepest traumas, I guess, in terms of that space, that sacred space you can hold when someone really looks into themselves, into their past and um into the future, and is really like we're reimagining who we are in terms of how we hold relationships with one another and um grow. Like I just think we've grown so much in the last two years as individuals, like changed a lot in that growth as well, and that's been insanely powerful to have like a partner who's supporting you to become a better person and to look at your blind spots, or um yeah, just really hold each other accountable too in that growth. It's been fucking amazing, honestly. Um, you know, I I think like the T that I'd give is Tony actually loves sport as much as he does.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

I can tell we can I think we can tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Yeah, it's not an act, and he is as lovely as he projects to be on TV. Like the person you see on TV is literally who he is.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Yeah, sort of feels like everyone's brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

Everyone's brother, he's a big Labrador. Sometimes it's annoying, like when you go to the club and like he's just made everyone's a friend. Yeah, yeah. Oh, can we just sit in the corner quiet ways? Like you just everyone's a friend, which we love. Um, yeah, he's a beautiful person, and I'm very, very thankful to be able to share life with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

Yeah, it's so nice, I think, like when you're in a relationship where you can like uh independently grow and then yeah, as a as a partnership um grow and pour that into those vessels um sometimes simultaneously. I think yeah, it's a it's a pretty profound thing to find a person where you can can do that with. And um, yeah, how special, how special. And yeah, I mean it's uh and just balancing it all too, you know, like about like the practicalities of it all. Like I think like you know, my partner I've been with for 13 years now, Mike, and he's just always around. But um, I imagine you mob with yoke these schedules trying to like really maintain that um is a really deeply sacred act. So yeah, how special. Well, we're so glad that we as I say, we love love and we love black love, and um yeah, it's nice to hear that you mob um yeah, are just continuing to grow and evolve together. Love to be a fly on the wall on some of the conversations you two are having around the dinner table, good ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

I don't know what's been going on, but I never liked musicals growing up, right? I don't know why I just never liked them. But we started doing musical theatre in um in the house. Wow, just like randomly, should we sing the good evening song and then we just start like busting out made up dancing around the house? I'm like, the neighbors bearing witness to this must be like, shut the hell up, you're not mama. We're just having this funnest time in our own little bubble at the moment, yeah. Um, which has been so special. I think you know, definitely don't have 13 years like you do, but in the last, you know, few years, two and a half years, I think it's been almost. Um just getting to a space of being so in tune with one another. I've never been in a relationship like that. So special.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

I think just 13 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

Yeah, yes, yes, neither can we. I think, yeah, like you know, just having that person where you can be silly with and um demask from some of these colonial spaces which are so violent and demand so much of us, where you can just be, you know, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, and I wish that for everybody in their own ways, not just in um partnership, but in community, in in family, um, just to have those beautiful spaces. Um wow, we've traversed so much. I feel like this is like Australian story, this is your life, sort of yarn. I loved every single minute of it. I mean, there's no neat way to close this up because it's still evolving. There's no, there's no like, you know, crescendo where we pull it all together. But I guess my sort of final question for people who would be listening, who have heard your beautiful story, you know, I'd love to just sort of ask what what do you think the biggest lesson of this is and and what are you gonna call more into next year? Um because that might be sort of uh someone who's listening uh might need to take away some of that beautiful advice for themselves in their own ways, of course. But yeah, biggest lessons and from last year, and yeah, aside from slowing down and and doing more sitting, um yeah, what sort of how do you want to move with that intention this year?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

There is a lot, we've covered a lot being present in your knowing and being, that's something that I'm trying to practice more of, and I think that everything unfolds from there, like being present in relationships, being present in what we have and what we know, being present in the work. Like there's just that there's a presentness and awareness that I feel like I've I lost for a few years, not in like an extreme way, but trying to be in all these spaces at once, or trying to sit in a yarn with Nana while I'm also checking an email, like all these things that have been so fractured in my um being and that stillness that comes from being present and aware. Like I just when I think about our old people and like I've been yeah, as I said at the start of this, like feeling more in relationship to my ancestors than ever. And I'm not perfect at it, but I think that there's this big learning that I've had around the sitting and the presentness that comes and how powerful that is, and it's just such a juxtaposition from the colonial thinking and mindsets and world that we're thrown in and up against. Yeah, and I think it can be an antidote to a lot of it. I think it's such a powerful way to um grow in ourselves and just be, and the world would look very different if everyone was present and aware in their own knowing and knowledge and selves. So I'm trying my best to practice that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:05

I love that, I love that so so much. Um, yeah, I guess we're trying to undo centuries of harm right now, aren't we? And so um coming back to what we have always known, and like you say, it's such a powerful antidote to that harm is to yeah, being present in your knowing and and being and knowing that that is enough, you know. That is the thing. That's the thing. We've chased these sort of elusive dragons to try to get ourselves out of the struggle, but coming back to a place where you know, sitting with the sun, sitting next to the river, just sitting with ourselves, our family, our kin, our community. Um, that is that's enough. And um, yeah, what a special sort of way to sort of yeah, bring this to some sort of close for people who are starting their new years. And um, when we allow ourselves that time to be present with ourselves, it only gives us more capacity to be of service and love to our people. So um, you know, we we sort of, you know, like everything, self-care has been co-opted, but there's a relationship between the self and the collective here that is so so potent. So yeah, wow, something for us to all think of. Um, thank you so much for being here, sharing so vulnerably, just allowing us to sort of yeah, unpack more about you, um, and of course, some of the deadly things you do. So much love for you, sis. So thank you. Thank you for having me on. What a great yard. Enriching. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening, you mob. If you are vibing this season of garning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecowl.com.au