Karlie Noon – Blazing Trails in Science and Indigenous Knowledge

Ever been curious about Aboriginal astronomy and how the night sky has guided mobs for thousands of years?

In this episode of Yarning Up, Caroline sits down with Karlie Alinta Noon, a Gamilaroi astrophysicist, author, and advocate for Indigenous and women’s rights in STEM. Karlie is the first Indigenous Australian woman to graduate with a double degree in maths and physics, and she’s currently completing a PhD in astrophysics at the Australian National University. As the co-author of the award-winning book Astronomy: Sky Country, Karlie is committed to making STEM and Indigenous knowledge accessible to all.

During the conversation, Caroline and Karlie delve into her incredible journey—from growing up on Gamilaroi Country surrounded by strong matriarchs, to taking on her matriarchs strength in a male-dominated field. Karlie shares how Indigenous wisdom has shaped her understanding of the universe, and her groundbreaking research exploring the Milky Way’s nuclear wind using radio telescopes.

Karlie also opens up about the personal challenges she faced growing up in a low-income family and how her passion for science blossomed through the support of a kind Aunty. Together, they discuss the importance of Indigenous representation in science, the value of community, and how traditional knowledge systems can offer solutions to modern challenges.

You won’t want to miss this powerful yarn. To learn more about Karlie Noon, follow her journey and research here.

Follow Caroline on Instagram:
@blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here.

We would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where this podcast was taped, and pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders, past, present, and emerging across Australia.

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio.
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Podcast Unite Our Voices. This podcast is brought to you by On-Track Studio.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Black Waddle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cal. We acknowledge the Rurundari people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today. It always was and always will be unseated Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land. Well, I'm so excited about today's conversation. As someone who has, I'd say, spent many years observing and pondering and screaming and looking into the sky existentially, sort of crying out at times. I'm really grateful to be joined today by Carly Alintanoon, a Gamilleroy author, astronomer, astrophysicist. I'd probably go so far as any black fellow to say an activist who is really radically changing things. The first Aboriginal woman to graduate with a double degree in maths and science, and just an all-round legend who is really changing how we come to know our Aboriginal science. So I'm so grateful for you being here today. Welcome to Yarning Up.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Thank you so much. Oh my goodness. That was like the best intro I've ever received, I think. Oh bless you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I feel really lucky to be here. You know, I feel like Yarning Up. You know, from the outside looking in, it looks like a really deadly family. Uh, so I'm really stoked to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Bless you. You're so right. It is a big giant kinship. And yeah, the feeling is so mutual. And yeah, I mean, I must say, even looking at your bio in trying to surmise all of the wonderful things you have done and are continuing to do was not an easy feat. You are yeah, and a hugely accomplished scholar doing such phenomenal work. So I'm excited to learn more, not only about your work, but more about you, sis, you know, who you are and and and and what's led you to this path. So yeah, I guess, you know, with that in mind, we always like to sort of start by just asking our guests to yeah, introduce themselves how they, you know, would like to be introduced or to describe themselves how they want to be described.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Look, every time I do this, I think it's a bit different. But, you know, um I grew up on on country, on Camillary Country. I was really lucky, I feel really blessed that I had that. Uh and you know, still have that grounding me uh to this day. I grew up uh with my mum and my sister and a big line of matriarchs before me. My family is is so like woman-dominated. We we don't have many men in our families, so the the women were just running wild. My mum and my sister had it pretty rough. They weren't, you know, very able in their their bodily capacity, um, you know, had a lot of health problems, a lot of social problems. Um, you know, we grew up very, very poor. We grew up in a a suburb called Caldale uh in Tamworth, which, you know, I I love and and I'm so proud to have to come from there. Um and you know, go back and visit as much as I can. And um, but you know, it was rough, and it's you don't you don't know that when you're growing up, you know, you just do what you gotta do. Um, but today, like I'm I'm so friggin' blessed, I'm so freaking lucky that for so many reasons that I was born, you know, with a a a relatively able body. Um, you know, and I had a huge amount of of passion and motivation and determination, like, you know, to help my mum out, help my sister out. I always, you know, wanted to be the one who could like buy them a house and all this. Um, and still haven't quite made it there, but still trying, still, still working. That's a work in progress. Yeah, I I do astronomy stuff and science stuff. I often think like anyone who was born in the same situation that I was born in would probably be in a very similar place. Like I had all this support and motivation from my family, not just my mom and my sister, but from my grandma as well. Um, and you know, just people really cheering me on. And when I started to, you know, get a bit of a name for myself. Not that I try to like big note myself too much these days, but like, you know, when community started hearing my name a bit more, like I had so many aunties back home just like cheering for me, and just like, you know, I I really do feel really blessed and um just the result of of all of these matriarchs who who are you know come before me and kind of allowed me to to have the perceptions that I have, to have the insight that I have inside the country, you know, the the values that I have in in country, in the sky, in in people, you know, expecting the the utmost from from from people, from you know, the government, all these things. Um so yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that describes myself very much. I guess like if if there were like dot points, you know, it would be so I'm I'm a descendant from uh actually both Cabillary and Rivedary nations. I'm getting a bit older now. I'm not old, but I'm getting a bit older. And and I think that, you know, I'm I'm 34 now, and I've been doing this for a little bit, for about 15 years, you know, I've been kind of working professionally and doing so uh like science communication and communication in general, and over that time, like yeah, just that that motivation from from back home really, really pushed me through that and helped me with that and and guided me through that as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

So I love it. I mean, this is why it's so beautiful to start there. And as mob, we do this so inherently, but I think it does start to give us a bit of a glimpse into, you know, not just all of the wonderful um contributions you've made, but hearing about your early life and you know, growing up on country surrounded by women who dominated and were bold and ambitious and unapologetic sounds like breeding grounds for somebody who can go ahead and achieve such milestones. So it's it's fascinating because that's all related to what you're you know birthing into the world now, these these early experiences. So it's kind of really beautiful to hear that and that your family have been in your corner supporting you because we need it, because it's a heart, I imagine, being the first of anything for any mob, but particularly as a woman, especially as a person of colour, you know, navigating and uncharted traversing that on your own, you need that support behind you. So it's beautiful to hear my sis.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah, like there were many times, like I never, you know, I never grew up particularly um well educated. Like I spent a lot of time at home growing up. I didn't go to school very much. I was actually, I would get in trouble a lot for not going to school. And that's because you know, I had responsibility at home, I had to look after mum. Um, and and we're poor, you know, it's it's really hard to get to school when you you don't have lunch, you don't have, you don't have a washing machine, you don't have a uniform. Like, um, and so like I was always playing catch-up at at school at uni. Like I was never, you know, at the same level as my peers. And it's really freaking hard when you have so much going on in the outside to to you know get to the the study and and to go through that grind and go to the classes and you know, give your all to the assignments and the homework and all that. Um, and to be so different to all your peers who, you know, this is this is uh the same for any any woman going through this as well, not just, you know, not just indigenous or from a minority, but any woman going through science as well, you know, all your peers are male, and they're all incredibly privileged, which is just not relatable to to a lot of us. So honestly, my mum, she she is a hundred percent the reason I got there, and my sister, you know, uh, when just those times when I'm so exhausted, I'm so burnt out, I'm so beaten by it all, and just to be able to call, you know, my family and and you know, cry and and have doubts and be scared, and just for them to just be cheering me on the whole way, just absolutely never question my ability to do it, and and never also never question what I'm doing. You know, it's it can you can the amount of times I've questioned, you know, do I belong here? Like, should I be here? Is this this is a really form, like this isn't built for me, so like why am I doing this? But for them, like, you know, my mum never knew what physics was. It was never something that you know, she she had to know what it was, but she never questioned that I could do it or that I should be there, and just having that like you know, unwavering support and love. Like, I I literally wouldn't wouldn't be here without it.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Wow, I'm just taking that in because that's truly so so beautiful to hear, my sis, because to have that unconditional love and acceptance when we need to draw on the strength and being grounded and humbled in an environment, like you say, that's not built for us. We don't see ourselves, we have no privilege, our proximity to whiteness and imperialism and our sense of identity and belonging. Um, I imagine it would bring up a whole flurry of very normal feelings about my identity and my and my adequacy. And it's just beautiful to hear that throughout it that you had your family there. But I know also too that it's you know, it's a reciprocal thing. It was family, but it was also your ability to, you know, push through and and produce and do this as well. And with that, my sis, you know, I was reading, which I would love to understand, you know, I was reading, and you mentioned it before, that, you know, you you like most black fellas who are struggling to survive and are caring, to be self-actualizing and learning and even getting ourselves to school is is a hard feat. And so I read, you know, that you growing up you didn't really like science or maths or anything. So what was the shift from say, you know, yeah, early life, family into going right? I'm gonna try my hand at becoming an astrophysicist and a scientist. What was the was there a change within yourself? And was it sort of supported by the environment? Was there anything that led to it? Yeah, keen to to know the journey.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

That's a really great question. And you know, it's something that I've spent a lot of time reflecting on. And it it wasn't like one change, it was it was so many different things kind of all coming together for it to, you know, end up like this. I think that one of the earliest and biggest things that impacted me was so my grandma had had this really close friend, and you know, this she was an she was an older lady, she was an older Aboriginal lady, and you know, she had many grandkids, and she was just this the loveliest woman. And she'd come down to Caldell and she would go to like a bunch of you know family homes, and true to us, true to us afraid for you know the kids who were struggling a bit, not really engaging with school, and she, you know, she had gone to uni and she had this this you know flash job, and it was like it was kind of multifaceted, like it was really impactful for me because it, you know, I was exposed to someone who had gone to university, gotten a job, was still working, you know, that was pretty, pretty rare in my family for for a bunch of reasons, but but mostly just you know, when you're struggling with multiple disabilities, um it's just not viable. The workforce is just not accessible for you. And so, you know, I'd never really seen examples of that before. So being exposed to this deadly, deadly arnie and for her to to help, just out of the kindness of her heart, you know, I wanted to do her so proud. And she would come and she would um would play these little mass games, and you know, we'd be giggling and I'd be laughing and I'd get one wrong, and she would, you know, make fun of it, and and you know, it just turned it into this really instead of being like shamed for for not knowing anything, you know, she just made it this like an opportunity to learn this fun thing that I'd really honestly never experienced before. And I know so many kids out there have that same experience where school is not fun, school is rough, school is, you know, it it can be the most isolating and ostracizing thing when you know, when you're mom, when you're when you're um poor, when you know, for me I was always the scabby kid, always the stinky kid, like all of these things, right? Um, but she just really yeah, turned mass into this really fun, enjoyable thing for me. So I think that was definitely the biggest impact. And she taught me a lot. She taught me that I don't need to depend on school to learn, and and that's something that has that that was honestly a gift that just keeps giving um up until now. So, like I'm doing my PhD, I spend all of my time, you know, learning on my own. It's it's completely self-driven. Um and and that was something that she taught me how to do. Um, but when when science, you know, I didn't go into science initially. I I always wanted to go to uni, you know. As I said, I I wanted to get my mum, get my mum the house. So I didn't go into science initially. I went into um I went into arts, I was really into ancient history, and so I went into ancient history and and did a few different things, did some sociology, did some religion, some philosophy, just it was kind of all over the place. And I just kind of stumbled across uh physics. I I was learning about the multiverse. Um I was reading a book by Stephen Hawking for a philosophy course, and I just, you know, it was the first time I'd ever really been exposed to physics. I was not someone who had access to you know science or anything at school that was, you know, that I was legitimately told that physics was for boys at high school. So like I just it wasn't even a thing in my mind. I was just like, that's not for me. Um but then when I read this book, I was like, what, this is the most interesting thing I've ever learned. Like, why have I not known about this before now? And then I was just so like um just captured by it. Like I I just yeah, became I just fell in love to be honest, and and was just like, I I want to do this, like if I could do anything, and I already felt like I was living the dream, right? I got into uni, like no one in my family had had been there before or experienced it before, so it was like all right, I have this opportunity, I'm going to make the most of it, and I'm going to do something that excites me and interests me, and that I I want to do, and so yeah, that was it. I just transferred over, and then you know, what followed was years and years and years of a lot of hard work and a lot of learning and a lot of picking myself back up, and I think that you know, I don't really have any amazing skills or anything like that. I'm not particularly bright or anything like that. Um, but my skill set is is picking being able to pick myself back up. That's that's what's kind of gotten me here. So I think, yeah, that's that's what I have to thank, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Wow, gosh, just taking that in, you know, having a majoring in being able to push through the adversity and all of the things, wow, it's so so powerful. And I guess I just wonder whether that Arnie girl knows how her guidance and you know her her ability to teach and inspire would have known, like if she could even conceptualize into the future that that would have led to you going on this path. And and like you say, I think the beautiful realization that, you know, a degree or the the qualification doesn't necessarily make you um it doesn't make or break you, but it will help you. But what's going on inside here is always the fundamentally most important part of the journey of the learning of self and and and the struggle. Like it's like you say, um it's so special to hear that that role that that Arnie played in inspiring you and making maths fun, like anyways. I love that. What a legend.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Honestly, people people study for years to to learn that and to be able to do that and still fail. Like, but I think the biggest thing that that Arnie had was that she believed in us, right? She uh she believed in not you know not necessarily like our potential or whatever, it wasn't that she believed in our worth, yeah. She she saw us as worthy to have access to these things, to have access to the world, right? When you grow up extremely poor, yeah in a place like Coldell, you don't have many options, yeah. And you have very you know, you have people that just inherently hate you.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Your teachers, your your peers, they just they because because of all those things, right? Because you are different, because you're poor, because you know, they you're everything that they fear to become themselves. And yeah. So I think you know, it was it was really Anu's ability to be able to see us as um as as people and worthy of love.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Wow. So truly special. And you know, I think with that is just a reminder of our oldest teachers on on earth and the which are our elders, you know, and yeah, that we all are worthy. And you're right, like, you know, when you there's this sort of nexus too with class and race, that we do internalize that sense of belonging and that sense of inadequacy. We have to do double the work with less of the resources, and you know, we're in chronically unsafe environments, and we're met with you know, this unwavering sort of disdain that we don't belong. And so, you know, I just want to say, yeah, I'm so enamored and with the ability to just keep going, like you say. There's so many times, I mean, my research or my work is. Nowhere near extensive where I've thought of giving up halfway and just thought, is this, you know, could I just go work in a coffee shop and just deal with, you know, the mundane and whether I would feel fulfilled. And it's such a heart-led space when you're pouring into this work, especially the work you're doing. So I appreciate learning more about you, my Susie's. And I just know that would resonate with a lot of people too, who have the world on their shoulders when we get out of poverty and the struggle too. You know, it's such a such a nuanced like spectrum conversation. Hey. Yeah. I guess, you know, for the for the lay people like myself or just people who don't know, could we maybe unpack these, you know, we might have a very superficial view. I think some of us know astronomy from, you know, Instagram tiles and things. But, you know, I want to unpack, yeah, for for those who might not know, what is an astronomer and an astrophysicist? Like, what are some of the types of things that you have done or do in these fields of work? And then I want to overlay it with what's an Aboriginal astronomist and Aboriginal astrophysicist too.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Yeah, of course. Okay. This is a fun question. So I guess, you know, for a long time, just by merit of how um, you know, how the the Western system works, you spend a hell of a lot of time just learning. You're just learning and learning and learning and taking it all in for years and years and years. And, you know, I've been at uni since I was 19. Um, so so you know, 15 years at uni, and I'm only now really getting hands-on experience with being an astronomer. Um, so for me, what that looks like is I I spend a lot of time looking at data. Um and, you know, I think I think it's pretty safe to say that we have some of the most beautiful data sets in the world or in the universe. And and you know, we're really lucky that we we we're we're looking at just these incredible objects. Um, and you know, lots of different people look at lots of different things. There's a lot of different objects out there that you could be studying and researching. For me, I'm particularly interested in the Milky Way galaxy, which is our home galaxy, it's where we live. And for me, that just felt really cozy. It's like I'm not going too far away from home. And I'm particularly interested in the the fuel of the galaxy, what fuels the galaxy to keep going. Uh, so you know, galaxies can can run out of fuel, and then once that happens, they stop creating stars. So galaxies are like these star-making machines, that's their their function. And of course, we know that you know, once a star is born, planets are also born around that star. And so, you know, this is where all of life is. It's within these uh star systems and these rocky planets that revolve around you know stars like our sun. Maybe they exist in in other forms, but that's the only one that we know of so far. And so, yeah, I'm really interested in how do the galaxies keep going, how do they continue to make stars? Um, you know, we know everything is finite. That's true in astronomy, just as it's true here on Earth. And so I use uh radio observations to do this. Radio observations, it's like putting on a very special type of glasses uh and seeing uh light that we wouldn't normally be able to see with just our human eyes, uh, and so we get a really um really different but really beautiful view of of the universe. Uh and so I use radio telescopes like the one in in parks. Um, so there's a a really large, um, incredible like world-class telescope in parks called Murray Yang. And yeah, I get to take pictures of these little pockets of gas that could potentially go on to create new stars one day. And I try and understand how they move around the galaxy. And so that's really where that physics term comes in when you hear astrophysicists. My role is really to understand the physics of how these little gas pockets survive. We we call them clouds, how they move around the galaxy, how the galaxy moves as a whole. So that's kind of my job. I get to look at these beautiful images of these beautiful space clouds. And I also get to use, because you know, we don't astronomy is a very difficult science. Not just because everything is so far away, but because we can't replicate anything. Right? As a a chemist or a biologist, you can kind of create experiments, but we we don't have that privilege. We can't create, you know, another universe. So, you know, what we do is we we use computers, we use supercomputers to do that.

unknown 27:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

And to literally generate galaxies or universes, um, and to try and understand, you know, the physics that way and run different experiments and uh try and gain some insight from that. So I'm in a really, really special place. I get to combine both, you know, the reality, the observations, with the simulations, which are really, you know, our best estimate or guesstimate of what this scenario is, or our best attempt at being able to describe the galaxy. Um, so yeah, I've been really lucky. I mean, I would pick up these two very useful skill sets, and I think that's you know, it's a bit daunting, but I think um, you know, as you were saying before, you know, you you kind of do crave the mundane when things get really hard. But I often think to myself, like, oh, this like silly little computer simulation is nowhere near as scary or as difficult as all the crap that I've dragged myself through before. So yeah, I definitely don't take it too seriously and and try to see it as you know, it's kind of play, it's kind of fun for me, and and I love it, you know. I'm I'm so lucky to be able to be there and to be able to look at these things and and study these things, and it's in a way, it's kind of a gift that I've given to myself. It's like, you know, I I was kind of selfish in a way. I was like, I chose something that was just so beautiful and so wonderful, and and I will never feel guilty about it, and I'll never regret that choice, no matter how hard it gets.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Yeah, I I think that's the thing, right? Any any job or passion that brings us to closer to a state of wonder and awe and curiosity is a beautiful thing. I mean, to be self-actualizing. I my mind is just blown. I mean, it's so amazing to hear that. So you are literally studying what fuels the galaxy, which fuels all of us. I mean, from an existential perspective, I don't know how you would zone in from the galaxy to grassroots to all things, you know, it would be a real challenge. Um, but that is sounds so cool to be able to observe these incredible phenomena and what makes more stars. That's just incredible. We'll be back, you mob, right after this short break.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

I kind of find it as as something that, you know, as I said, uh it's kind of a gift I've given to myself, you know, as black fellas, we don't really, you know, some of us do, and but just from how I was brought up and you know, coming up as a gamilleroy, you know, and and having the deadly elders that we have, and and the staunch elders that we have, you know, we have to deal with so much, so much crap, so much in the so much harm that's done to us as people, that's done to us uh uh you know, done to our countries. Um, and you know, we feel it across nations. You you know, it's not you you see another nation sh, you know, dealing with with the colony, and and you know exactly how that feels and you can't you can't not feel it. Um and so, you know, having having my day job as a place where I I can kind of not have to deal with that all the time. And you know, I know people people need that and they need to be in that space all the time, but I just knew for me I couldn't. It's something that I will always deal with, and I will I will absolutely give it all the energy I can when I can, but I knew that I also needed this place where where you know I felt safe and um yeah, could just kind of think about something beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, just switch off to the the stars and the moon, l quite literally, you know. But like I I feel you, sis, and I can I I think that's a really brave and beautiful thing to say is that you know, for for black fellows, we don't have the ability to to turn off from what we're experiencing collectively, and so you know, I don't think that there's anything controversial at all about or radical about having chosen or having that knowing within ourselves when we need to find our own crafts and passions. We can then pour in, it kind of makes us more expansive to pour in when we when we when we do. And so I think that that's a that's a beautiful knowing. Um, and gosh, I would love to zoom out and look at the galaxy every now and then instead of you know trying to think about you know decolonizing well-being and mental health strategies. So um, wow, that's so, so special. I mean, with that in mind, sis, you know, you've co-authored uh a book, Sky Country, um, which really explored, I guess, the connections between Aboriginal environmental and cultural practices. And through some of your work, you know, you have reaffirmed some indigenous knowledges. And one of the particular findings that I read was around the moon halo. I'm wondering if you could talk about, you know, yeah, what it's like being an Indigenous scientist in this space. You know, I'd love to sort of talk a little bit around the Indigenous work you've done, and especially, you know, that finding and other things in the book, but then also, you know, how you did navigate it as a blackfellow in a very white space. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

It's really funny, you know, like the Aboriginal astronomy space, traditionally, um, and I use that term traditionally in a very modern sense, yeah. Um, you know, in the past hundred years or so, has been entirely led by by non-Indigenous people.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Um and, you know, it's only until very recently in the past 30 years or so that mob have kind of been able to take up a bit of space there. Um, and there's a lot of reasons, and you know, uh a lot of um, you know, a lot of progress was was made in in that field to allow us to do that right. Like I don't wanna um you know, I think we kind of forget the fact that it wasn't that long ago that we weren't considered human. You know, when my mum was born, she was not considered human.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Um, and you know, I'm not even gonna go into the horrors that my grandma experienced as a little girl. But, you know, it's it's only been very recently that, you know, despite Mob's knowledge in astronomy being so well recorded and documented, it's still only very recently that that has been accepted and and believed, to be honest. Um, and so it's a it's it's a really interesting field. Um you know, if I could define Aboriginal astronomy, which you know myself and and Tedar uh Crystal do in the book, or we attempt to anyway, is there's kind of there's kind of three different ways that indigenous astronomy or Aboriginal astronomy kind of sits. So there's the there's the knowledge, the astronomical knowledge that that mob have and hold and know and and practice and share day in, day out. Um, this knowledge that goes into so many of our traditions, our culture, our ways of living and existing and knowing each other and relating to each other and relating to other kin and to totems and you know, all everything. It it touches everything. Um it was such, you know, traditional life, living, living with mob, living, you know, on country and and alongside our totems, it it was so important to to know the sky, to know the stars and the planets and the cycles. Um, so there's that. Another definition I would give it is the the knowledge that has been documented and interpreted and reinterpreted by early settlers, explorers, more recently academics and scholars, all entirely non-Indigenous peoples. Um, and so that's a really separate body of knowledge. And I by no means um wish to at all disrespect that or or put any taint or shame on that, but it's it's purely like I think it's really important that we do acknowledge these are very separate systems. I think one of the biggest differences that that I've really come to appreciate is that when we have the knowledge that has been interpreted and reinterpreted, it really sits um extracted from a lot of other connected knowledges.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

That, you know, when when there, you know, this knowledge sits within its its context, yeah, it sits within its stories and its song lines and its its ceremonies and its you know it's its traditions. It's not just astronomy, it's so many different things that are overlaid and interconnected. But when we you know document this knowledge, or you know, when it has been documented, it because of how the Western system education system is, everything is you know extracted and complimentalized. And so we have this astronomical knowledge that is traditional knowledge, but it's been changed, it's been extracted in a way. So there's that body of knowledge, and then the third body of knowledge that I would mention is is very much the intersection between the two, and that's very much an emerging space. And I think the fact that universities are becoming a bit more able to engage with community, um, and and as community are somewhat more willing um to engage with these institutions, that body of knowledge, um, you know, I I actually see so much hope and so much like I guess potential in in that body of knowledge. You know, these two systems coming together and working together.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Um, because you know, we we just have so much wisdom in our cultures, in our, you know, the stories that have been handed down to us and and our perceptions.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

How we see things and how we view um, you know, the cosmos and and our connectedness to it. And so that's that's kind of like an emerging space, I kind of view it as. Um, and you know, I can only hope that it continues to to emerge and to grow and to and to flourish, and you know, hopefully we can we can learn and listen together and with each other and from each other. Um but as for you know my experience coming up in this, it's been really interesting, it's been really eye-opening. You know, I was very much flung into this space. It's it's really funny when you are a blackfella and you're in a space that your you know people people aren't used to you being there or used to having blackfellas in that space, and they they do try to put you in that blackfella space, like you know, it's it has been a little bit of a challenge for me to be viewed as a scientist, um, and not not just the the Aboriginal woman um who just happens to be in the space for one reason or another. Um and and it's it's been interesting because you know I I of course bring my culture and and and my community with me in whatever space I'm in. Um but it it has been yeah quite interesting that I was there was this kind of attempt to to see me as um you know push me down this pathway where I was I wasn't doing um you know the the Western science, but I was more doing doing the Blackfella science, which I I still do and will always do, right? That's not something that you you can just not be engaged in and participating when you when you are a black fella, you know that's that's how it goes, and and it's an honor um to have access to these yarns, but um at the same time, you know, that's I have this whole other training and skill set and and profession that that I've been honing and working on for 15 years now. So yeah, look, it's been interesting. Being flung into into that kind of space, quite young um and quite naive, was was um quite turbulent to be honest. There were lots of ups and downs, so many ups though, like so many opportunities and and people really cheering you on, and and really, you know, I think we've kind of there was this moment where this type of knowledge and this type of acceptance of you know mob's cleverness, it just really launched off, like it just really picked up. Um, and you know, people are just more and more interested in you know the clever ways in which our old people existed and and lived and you know, all their teachings. So yeah, it's um it's honestly such a I I'm I'm really lucky, I'm really blessed, and I feel like we're all really lucky to be able to learn the things that we now kind of have more access to.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

It's still obviously uh something we need to work on for all of our mobs, and I definitely know that some of us are the anomalies in our families, which is not shouldn't be the norm, but you know, it's also one of those things that I remind myself that there are doors and spaces that are open for me that are never open for my mum or or my nan as well, and that We should be like, I know that we have a lot of work ahead of us, especially our generation. I'm the same age as you. I feel like we're in between this sort of like space. And so, you know, we have to use the responsibility wisely that we get with this. It's not just for for our us. It's so counter to the Western, hyper individualized, I'll go get a degree. And, you know, we we have to continually pour back. And so I want to touch on a few things you've said, which there's so much. And, you know, even to the listeners, you know, just to go back and really take on board the delicate, rich nuance of some of the things you said around Aboriginal astronomy. But I want to just stay with your personal experience first because I always like to stay with self. But it's almost like this is why I love having these yarns with blackfellas here and in my life, because we have this such complicated path sometimes around, you know, you've been learning for 15 years. It's like you have to go out and learn and learn, and then basically unlearn, unravel, unbecome, undo, and then recreate based off, you know, the knowledge that you learn in community or, you know, and so it's such a process that is, you know, when we learn a science. And so, you know, thinking about what you said before around the three areas of the book and science generally, which is, you know, this indigenous knowledge. And, you know, you think about it, you know, black fellas are the oldest scientists in the world. If you think about, and I'm not a I'm not a scientist, but I'm a social scientist, but nah. But you know, like science in its basic, sort of as I understand it, is a theory which can be proven or disproven. And so, you know, if you think about mob who have studied, you know, observed, watched, archived, and then so much so they can predict future events and algorithms. I mean, we we we are the older scientist. And the relationship between sky, people, country, and and living and and thriving is as long as millennia, right? And so it's interesting to hear that, you know, with our when we look at science within our context, within our law and within our frameworks, that it's it's it's so counter to what modern science is about, which you say is that second layer, which is around extracting discovery as opposed to taking like community and cultural rigor over scientific rigor as well. And so it's it's just so fascinating to hear that, you know, we still, even though we have credentials and knowledge, we still have to continually prove that our science is a science and that we're not some pseudoscience sort of, you know, this is proven. Are you seeing a change in how people are yeah, incorporating and understanding Indigenous knowledges to the extent in which, you know, it's making some impact? I mean, I loved the third element of the research, which you said, which was this integrated approach. But yeah, are you seeing people take our science more seriously, in short?

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Yeah, look, I think I think it it comes hand in hand with taking us more seriously, right? As sovereign people, as landowners, as coming from the land and being country, yeah, right. We are representatives of country, we we are a part of country, we don't live and work on country, we are country, and so I I definitely see that being taken more seriously, and our rights, um, and as a result, you know, they people listen and and people uh are way more willing to listen, you know. One of the first things I learned going to school, so I went to an Aboriginal uh preschooling basing Holdell, the best, the absolute best. Um, and you know, all my cousins were there, and like, you know, an uncle would come and pick me up and and drop me off each day. Like it was beautiful, beautiful memories. Yeah, and um, and then when I went into a mainstream primary school, um, one of the first things I learned about Aboriginal people was that they couldn't do maths. And so, you know, this is in the 90s, mid-90s. And so I think like as as a as a nation, as as you know, as Australia, we have absolutely come very, very far in in honoring and respecting our our old people, our communities, our nations, and and their cultures and traditions. Um and with that, of course, you know, comes the things that we want to talk about and that that we um we're proud of. And so for me, of course, that's astronomy. Um, you know, I'm so proud of that. And I'm so proud to be Aboriginal, of course, and and to really be able to, you know, promote and celebrate how clever our old people are. Um, and so, you know, I think it's it's not just it's not just the sciences. I think, you know, for a long time, I think we've been pretty acknowledged and respected in certain spaces, like the environmental sciences. Um, I think I think we've been acknowledged there for for quite a while now. Um, but I think, you know, it's just we're just being noticed in in all these areas that we've just excelled and you know, our our cultures excel at, um, and our our knowledge systems, you know, lend itself to. And so, you know, absolutely in astronomy, but I think more broadly, just as as people, and and also seeing, you know, I think it's kind of a an interesting, it's a very interesting time, obviously, for many, many reasons. But I think like, you know, we're kind of seeing the cracks in in Western civilization and and this myth that has been sold for hundreds of years now about you know civilized society and non-civilized, you know, the the savages or whatever. Um and and how it's just so unbelievably inaccurate. And it's so it's so much easier to see now because we have all these failing systems, they don't just fail mob anymore, they fail everyone, right? We're all struggling out here. Um and and you know, country feels that more than anyone, yeah. And so I think combining that, you know, having having it made really obvious and really clear that, you know, this lie of of civility and and to be completely honest, Western and white supremacy sold to us for so long now and forced down our throats, like it's just unbelievable. Like no one can believe it anymore, you know. It's just it's it's just a farce. Um, obviously, you know, not to get too um too activisty, but no, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

I'm always here for these yarns. Maybe you're yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

And so, you know, combining that with you know, mob over here being like, well, yeah, obviously, like you know, we've been trying to trying to point this out and and tell you for years that you know this this is this ain't right. This is not how things have to be, right? We have all these systems that are tried and tested. We know that they work because we're still here. Mob are still here. Um, and so, you know, I think I think it's a really important time for indigenous people, for knowledge holders, for people who who can connect to the land and see themselves as land and a part of it. Um, you know, I think it's a really, really important time. And I think we all have our little part to play in that. You know, um, I find myself in in this astronomy area, and you know, I try to wave that flag so much and so hard, uh, you know, and you know, really push the ways in which that particular industry can learn and benefit and listen. Um, and you know, I think it's particularly important for us Indigenous astronomers at the moment, and because there's there's lots of us now, which is incredible, um, for us to really be talking about the space industry and and talking about the ways in which that's progressing because we've we've seen it happen before, we've seen, you know, there's all these um all these hints that are pushing us down a particular path with the space industry. And I think we really need to step up and and put our hand up and say, hold on, this is not right, this is not feeling right, and we we need to stop this before we um kind of need to reframe ourselves here and and reframe our positioning within within space, within, you know, the universe, just like we need to do here on earth. Um, and you know, I think I think everyone has has their little piece to play, um wherever you are, you know. Unfortunately, yeah, fortunately and unfortunately, you know, I was brought up to um to speak up. And you know, I I'm really privileged and really lucky to have that, and and I need to practice that. That's that's kind of um, you know, my responsibility. It's it's to speak up for country and and not just my country for for all country.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Wow, gosh. And I mean, I imagine that that responsibility to country transcends, you know, all of what it is you you're you're doing. And there's just so much to what you said there. I mean, I could I mean to reimagine our societies, to reimagine our world, and to realize that we are all inherently connected, and you're right, you know, we're seeing the world fall and unravel with the harms of neoliberalism, industrial capitalism, colonialism, um, patriarchy. You know, we're seeing it. And this is what I I truly believe, and I've said it on the show, and I'll say it again, but this is why similarly I truly believe that sentiment, like you say, is that you know, indigenous and other knowledges are good for everyone and can offer us the framework and that knowing and that it has been tested, and to sort of like you know, weave in a couple of things that you said, which I I can't even begin to paraphrase it because it was that deadly, but you know, I think the distinction between indigenous knowledge and w Western knowledge is this, it's such a small difference between I am in nature or I am nature, or I am country, I am, you know, on country, or you know, it's it's it's that it's knowing that we we are coming from the earth, our mother, um, our father's skies, our oldest textbook. Um, it's the it's the knowing of such. And it's not there's no benevolence or having to prove as such. It's a and it's also that knowledge is shared collectively with that responsibility. And so, yeah. And there was another thing you said before, and you said, you know, that like milus and stuff are sort of starting to jerry that of our cleverness. And I think that's a lot of it too, that there is a racial undertone with a lot of this. And like Barker even says that to quote her, she says, you know, the power of our the power of our blackness. It's almost like they don't, they've all they've wanted to keep us on the sugar cane farms, they've wanted to keep us in the plantations, they've wanted us to do these things, they want us to be dumb so because of the power of our blackness, of our knowledge system that has been so sustainable. And I think you're right, we're at this huge reckoning and impasse right now. We have been, and we continue to see, you think that you you can't see any more horrors, and you continue to be, you know, uh bearing witness. But it's like, you know, now is the time where people are thinking about the relationships of yeah, colonization and neoliberalism and white supremacy and and the harms it has. And so, you know, I think it's you know, not to pathologize or even paternalize or in any way, but why it's so important. We need people like you and other black um people, women, queer folk, um, you know, just people in these spaces doing this hard work, but I know that it comes at such a cost to our our moor up and our spirit along the way as well. So yeah, you know, I think it's really important that we have First Nations people at the helm of these conversations around First Nations justice and what we're experiencing right now. But I know it's such a huge burden.

unknown 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Sorry, I was just gonna say, I think we play such an important role, and I I totally understand it. It is a huge burden. It's it's it can be so um so much someday, so overwhelming. But I think the thing that we really offer is is hope, right? We offer a completely different paradigm that you know, sadly, a lot of people haven't been able to imagine. They haven't been able to imagine anything outside of capitalism, anything outside of white supremacy. And you know, I s I use the term white supremacy a lot because so much of our society is is so entrenched in it. And and I don't believe that we we necessarily, you know, people who perpetuate um white supremacy are doing it from a place of um you know malice and and hate. I think it's just that it's all that they've ever been exposed to, it's all they've ever known. And and we're so lucky that we we get to draw on literally the oldest culture known to human history, and we get to reimagine our our present and our future, and and for that, you know, we're we're here to be storytellers. We it's literally our our our duty, it's our duty to our old people, to our country, to tell those stories of country, to tell those stories of our old people. And I think that you know that's the most important thing we can offer. We can offer people uh a little bit of hope, maybe that you know, there are other ways that we can coexist with each other, with country, with kin, with animals, with everything. Um, it doesn't have to be this way.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

I love it. Oh I'm just I'm just taking this all in because you're right, it is an internalized it's it's internalized capitalism, internalized colonialism, internalized white supremacy, and and I guess you know, with that hope to be able to reimagine, it's also like it's a reimagining, and I guess from my perspective, it's also a returning back to because we've all got this proximity to whiteness, um, and we're all trying to um kind of understand our own colonial mindsets and how they sh how they manifest in our work and and ourselves. And so I think a lot of the work in in this is also reminding or being reminded of the we've always had this and we can return back to it's accessible to us and that it's not gone, it might be sleeping, but it's it's there for us when we're in that place to return back there. Yeah. Um, and that's uh you know a beautiful knowing. Um yeah, we've we've been having a lot of talks in our workforce and um with a lot of guys that have been having down in Victoria around Treaty, around just the because we've been positioned as a problem to be solved and a deficit for so long that sometimes along the ways we also underestimate the power of our blackness and we also underestimate our own frameworks. Well, you can see why I wanted to sit down with this individual. It's been a blessing, Carly, to have you on the show to learn, yeah, about you and the work you're doing to understand our galaxy, which still gives me like all the feels thinking about, but also, you know, just hearing about your really gentle honesty about you know how to make this world a bit of a better and blacker place. So thank you so much for being here today and sharing all of your wonderful knowledges with us. We're so grateful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

Uh, it's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for for holding this space. Hey, like it's not often that um, you know, we get to to go into these topics to this level and and be dishonest and you know, yarn about the things that we're most passionate about and and do it in a in a really truthful way. So thank you. Thanks for for all your work and you know, you being you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Oh bless you, sis. Thank you. That's so beautiful. I really appreciate that. Uh we will put all of your details, uh, Instagram, social media handles in our show notes so people can follow along the magic, uh, can follow along with your PhD and all of the wonderful things you're doing. So thank you so much again, my sis, for being here on the show, Yarning Up. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening, you mob. If you are vibing this season of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www dot carolinecal.com.au,