Commissioner Travis Lovett - A Deep Dive into the Yoorrook Justice Commission on Historical and Ongoing Injustices

In this episode, Caroline is joined by Travis Lovett, Deputy Chair and Commissioner of the Yoorrook Justice Commission. A proud Kerrupmara Gunditjmara Traditional Owner, Travis plays a key role in the first formal truth-telling process into historical and ongoing injustices experienced by First Peoples in Victoria, the Yoorrook Justice Commission.

The Commission, established by an agreement between the First Peoples’ Assembly of Victoria and the Victorian Government, operates independently of both. It delivered an interim report in June 2022, and a critical issues report in August 2023, and will present a final report in 2025. The Commission is led by five Commissioners, with three being Aboriginal. They bring extensive knowledge and experience in areas such as First Peoples’ knowledge, systemic disadvantage, land rights, history, law, trauma, and healing.

In this episode, Travis shares his personal story, discusses what it's like being part of a big family and mob, and talks about his many passions, including being a dad, practising his Culture, working with Community, and preserving Aboriginal languages.

Travis and Caroline discuss some of the most significant evidence of past injustices which have come forward. Commissioner Lovett also walks listeners through the truth-telling process, providing valuable insights into the important hearings taking place and the steps ahead.

To follow the great work the Yoorrok Justice Commission are doing, visit their website https://yoorrookjusticecommission.org.au/ To follow Travis’s journey then please visit his instagram page HERE.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show! 

Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here! 

If this episode has brought up anything for you contact 13YARN on 13 92 76. Or, visit the following pages for more useful contacts and support Where can I get help | R U OK?

We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Podcast. Unite our voices. This podcast is brought to you by OnTrack Studio.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Black Waddle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cal. We acknowledge the Rurundari people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today. It always was and always will be unceded Aboriginal and Taurus Red Islander land. Hey mob, we just want to say a huge, heartfelt uh thank you for continuing to join us here at Yarning Up. You know, each and every fortnight we have the incredible privilege of sitting down and hearing from Blackfellas right across so-called Australia. You know, we have beautiful, candid, heartfelt, uh juicy yarns. We get to learn about theirs and their family stories. And to each and every guest who has joined us, we say thank you, thank you so much. If you're vibing the show and you want to help us continue to elevate black people and black stories, uh, our medicine, then please rate and review, you know, tell your friends, tell your aunties, tell your uncles, and help us continue to yeah, spread spread the joy and the love and uh these incredible black people and black stories. We're putting in a content warning for today's episode, you mob. This episode is an important one. I had the privilege of sitting down with uh Commissioner Travis Lovett at the Yorook Justice Commission, which is the first formal truth-telling process which is happening into the historical and ongoing injustices experienced by First Nations people. It's happening here in Victoria. And I just want you to consider, you know, how resourced you're feeling when you're listening to today's episode. Um, it discusses sensitive topics that some people might find distressing. So, you know, don't be ashamed in asking for help, you mob. Uh, 13 Yarn can be contacted. Our friends 13yarn. I have used them myself before. Uh, their number is 139276, and they're available 24-7. Uh, all love you, mob. Thanks for being here. I'm just so grateful to have Kira Mara, Gundijamara, traditional owner, Travis Lovett, sitting down with me today. So, welcome to the show. Welcome to Yarning Up.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Definitely, and thanks for the opportunity to be on Yarning Up. You know, it's really great. And I've been able to listen into some of the other mob that you've had on the show as well. So, you know, it's also a privilege for me to be able to come on here and uh be in the presence of Black Excellence as well, two-way here.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

We really like to start to get to know a bit more about you before we sort of start talking about this process. So, can you tell us a little bit about you and your mob?

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Well, uh, as a custom help people as well, and I know you've already done this, but I'll do it my way or uh old people's old people's way here, which is in language. So Latama Latun Lag Lin Yon, Travis Love, Ketamara Gunujumara meeting, Lin Yan Kokong, Kenan Conitek, Bujbi, Yumbin meeting, Wananjari Ma meeting, Kulin meeting, Nian Karabanjul, Wangwa Ma Wu Ran, Book uh Bitterong Beauty Meeting, Narakitong Meeting, Narikitong Ma Min Mun Moon. Uh so just acknowledge country and pay my respects to the Ranjari people of the Kulan Nation. I also pay my respects to Bunjul, the Spirit Creator, and also Wa the Crow. Uh, it's really important that we also bring um Wa in because that's the laws, customs, and traditions, and we've got to adhere to those, particularly as visitors on their country. And I said as well, as you introduced me as a proud Gunijamara and Karamara man. So originally as what now known as Lake Condor is where my people uh stem from as well. So I'm really proud of my Gunajimara connections, and in particular being a proud Karapmara Gunijamara fella. But yeah, grew up in Fitzroy to start with. So I have the uh the luxury of being one of 28 kids, and I'll say that again, 28. So come from a massive family, and I'm really proud of that, and really proud of all my uh brothers and sisters and their contributions to our existence and carrying on the family name as well. But yeah, grew up in um in in Fitzroy to start with in the high-rise flats, so it's quite interesting that we're you know inquiring into housing, but uh, grew up in housing commission housing, as many of the mob did then, particularly being relocated off missions and so forth and moved away from country. And then we moved out to Preston. So I grew up at you know a little bit later when I was about six or seven, moved out to Preston there and grew up out that way. So that was you know always really fond memories about being um around family, but also community as well, as every other mob. I think you know you grow up and you know, there's always thousands of people around your house and so forth as well. So good times, good laughs, but also challenging times around the struggles too for our people as well and the resistance, uh, but also the fight and the continual fight for advocacy around land rights and water rights and our people's human rights to be up uh respected as well. Worked, I guess, in you know, uh Bay I so many of the Kurry orgs I've worked at uh coming through before sort of moving into the curry courts, where I was the manager of curry courts but started off as a curry court officer there. So just working in, I guess, in and out of community, but also in government to really learn the ways of government and how government work and operate as well. And also, you know, in I guess in more sort of contemporary times as well. She's talking like I'm a real old fella, I'm only 41. But also having, you know, be the beauty of about having two children, being married to my wife Renata, but also two beautiful children, my daughter Hunter, who's 10, real strong, Kerat Mara Goodich Mara woman coming through, and she let everyone know that too, which is really deadly. And also my son, who's eight, Duke Lovett, another real uh warrior coming through as well. You know, really proud of them and also the work that they enable me to do. And I think family is really important. We tend to forget the ones that really back us in and enable us. You know, a lot of people say, geez, you're everywhere, and yeah, I am everywhere, but it's also having the support of family and children who make their sacrifices to enable me to be able to be across the state, yarn and talk in the mob, you know, whether it be having cups of teas or whether it be information sessions or roundtables or the hearings that I get a lot of public profile as well. So, you know, it's really important that we always shout out family as well.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Oh, how beautiful. I mean, it's so lovely to hear firstly, just you to kick off this yarn in language and how special that is. It's not surprising, you know, you have have worked so extensively in supporting the rights of mobs across cultural heritage, in your working governments, but I guess also hearing your your family life and where you come from and how all of these cumulative and lived and family and cultural and community experiences have sort of led you and shaped you to playing this role. I too was also a kid of the Commission Housing. I also spent time in Preston at Stoke Street there. So I know that feeling of being surrounded by mob, but then also, yeah, seeing the struggle and I guess holding those multiple truths that we we all hold as blackfellas.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Yeah, and also I think it's important, you know, the another reason why I speak in language is also to send messages to our old people who are no longer with us upstairs there, you know, and just saying, hey, we got you. We got you down here, and yes, there's a lot of traumatic things still happening to our people, but we got used to sending you messages that, you know, you continue fight, struggle, resistance. Uh uh, and you'll tend to know that I won't use the word resilience. I stopped saying that about a few years back because I feel that resilience for our people, we just get lumped in this resilient basket where things can just keep happening to us. So I don't use that word anymore. I use resistance as well because I think it's really important. But yeah, sending them messages, but also sending messages to you know community and our people as well. You know, it's really hard work to reclaim your language, and it's important that you know we share that and that people can engage with it. We've all born with it. We're all born with it inside. At the right time, we just release it and we've got to do a bit of work to release it, but still we're all born with it, and I think that's really important as well. Uh, and important that my children speak a language which they do at home, but also at school as well. You know, when you see me talking a language, my children are also doing it in school every day, which is absolutely fantastic and powerful for uh for them. And also, you know, growing up away from country, it also helps further connect them to country, their ancestors support a part of identity.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

So right. Yeah, I want to talk about that. You know, Yuruk is the whamble whamble word for truth, and it's the first of its kind, formal truth help. And it was established, I guess, during the the push for treaty, during the First People's Assembly. At the time I was working at the Victorian Treaty Advancement Commission, and we really recognise that, yeah, justice, truth, and healing, they really have to go hand in hand. And so I'd really love to just sort of start there for people who aren't plugged in and aren't familiar with the work or the mandate, I guess, of what your rook is being set out to do. I'm wondering if you could tell us about the role and what the commission's key objectives are through this truth-telling process.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

You know, and it's really important as we as we've done, you know, acknowledging um yourself and the work you did, but also Annie Jill as well, uh, as our first uh treaty advancing commissioner as well. And I know you did a power of work to support her, so recognizing your contributions to our people's continued achievements there as well. We are a formal truth-telling commission, and there's been a few of these set up around the world, but the point of difference for us is we actually have Royal Commission powers. And I think that's really important point, is that when Yuduk was first set up, the community were very strongly kind of wording that didn't really want a Royal Commission. We'd had plenty of them and they hadn't really done much for our people, so it was decided that we would have a truth-telling commission ultimately with Royal Commission powers, and the Royal Commission powers really give you power and authority to compel witnesses or to compel evidence, should it be required from government. And that's a really uh important point of difference. But we are a truth-telling commission going around the state and investigating the ongoing systemic injustices since 1788, uh when colonization really started and it has impacted our people. Our job is to also look at and establish the official public record of Victoria, and it's really important for people listening in, whether they're mob or whether they're not. But we are not documenting Aboriginal truths here. We are documenting the true history of Victoria. Our people have been saying this for 200 plus years about the ongoing impacts and our fight, struggle, and resistance around government policy and what they've done and what they continue to do. This is not a historical matter that we're investigating. We are investigating contemporary issues, which is, you know, pretty much up until today. So that's really important, and again, to establish an official public record to document the true history of what has happened to our people since colonization. Our mob play a significant part in documenting their truths and coming forward, and we encourage always people to come forward and share their um their lived experience and their truths with us as the um truth-telling process. There's many different sort of facets to that around putting it on the public record what's happened, but also uh you mentioned a key word earlier around on the pathway to healing. And it adds to um healing around them being able to come and share their story, knowing as well that our people are listening. Also, four out of the five commissioners who sit on this commission are uh black fellows or as mob, that's really important as well. And we do have a former federal court judge also who is a commissioner as well. But having mob leading this process and and shaping this process as well, but really trying to not re-traumatize people, and that's what we you know work really hard to do. We also have um social and emotional well-being experts who work within our commission, but also uh counselors available for people who also come and share their truths alongside legal assistance to help them with any kind of legal matters aligned to them coming and submitting their lived experience and their truths as well. But we also encouraging non-Aboriginal people to come forward and share their truths as well. Um and I'm not too sure of your viewers, but I'd like to direct them to our website to check out Susanna Henty's evidence. Um that was incredibly powerful for her to come forward and share her family's story around their role in colonization and the impacts that her family has had on the Gunajimara people in particular, around, you know, in Portland, or all country really, not just in Portland, but you know, that's kind of the you know the main feature of land-based where we name these things and from a colonial point of view. But Kilgar country, close to that being Kilgara country, if we're talking our mob's terms as well, is you know, the massacre that happened uh there as well, which is you know absolutely terrible. And our people have been saying this for 200 years, and it was just you know, for the first time, a non-Aboriginal person had come forward and shared at our commission, shared the history of what her family had done to uh our people.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

I mean, we'll be popping all of your website and videos in our show notes, but I must say that hearing from a direct descendant of a settler colonizer in that manner was really compelling.

SPEAKER_05 13:49

The sins of colonialism have not been appeased, they have not been redeemed. Merino Downs should be returned. I don't want to see a town called Henty, I don't want to see Henty monuments. I was told by my high school teacher that we were pioneers. This is this is the rhetoric that is used. There have been five generations of Henty family members who have not said anything, and I don't want to be part of the sixth generation who doesn't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

The historical exclusion from basic health care continues to haunt Aboriginal communities, leaving enduring marks on our health outcomes. Intergenerational wealth disparities further exacerbate the divide.

SPEAKER_07 14:49

How much of the eighty-three billion dollar revenue has been distributed directly to First Nations? And the answer to that question?

SPEAKER_08 14:58

The answer is zero directly. Water corporations collect revenue, and they don't report against that though, uh, nor are they required to. So the answer is zero.

SPEAKER_07 15:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

And that some of those involved in these heinous but no longer unspeakable acts are likely to have identified with the Church of England. The Anglican Church in Gibbs Land has been complicit in and has benefited from the dispossession and other harms caused by Victoria's colonization, predicated in part on the theologically repugnant and now repudiated doctrine of discovery and its outworking in the morally bankrupt ideology of Terranellius.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

I was born in 1964, which meant that I was assured of a right to vote in adulthood, unlike Aboriginal adults. And that my life expectancy would be far greater than that of Aboriginal children of the same age. And that my pathway to an education was well lit and clear because I had good secure housing and family connections, unlike that of many Aboriginal children of a similar age.

SPEAKER_06 16:24

Yeah, so it's it's interesting to think like here as becoming a carer because it was never like that. It was kind of just like um looking after the family. You know, um I was yeah, twenty-one at the time where yeah, Tim Johnny needed me and needed a carer. Um in that chapter of her journey, and she was around 13 years old. That's beautiful but challenging because of it was like these two contradicting ways of caring uh for our young ones. And I think like having that the pressure at times from the child protection system to be a lack of quote definition of a kinship carer versus me just naturally caring for her as her older cousin.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

For anyone who is listening, you know, we have a lot of overseas listeners, and as Commissioner Lovett has said, was established in 2021, and the the cultural holistic sort of healing element of this is really special for anyone who has had the privilege of sitting in that space. It's whilst it has the mandate of a Royal Commission, it is really grounded in Aboriginal pedagogy and knowledge and wisdom and truths as well in the space and surrounding it to allow people to participate and feel comfortable in doing so. And so, with that in mind, you know, the objectives is, as you say, to establish a public record for first people's experiences, but also documenting an official document of the truth here in Victoria. According to Antar, truth-telling processes have been used globally as transitional justice mechanisms in post-conflict and colonized countries. Overall, a truth-telling process's aim is to essentially reconcile the relationship between survivors of state-sponsored violence, the state, and the general public, and to facilitate a shared understanding that might promote healing. And this can hold accountable those who carry out the violence or oppression and challenge ongoing harmful practices. There are many examples internationally with countries like South Africa and Canada, and now more recently here in so-called Australia. Something I wanted to ask around that is, you know, in Australia, we have this really comfortable amnesia about ourselves. There's such a dissonance between what's happened in the last 236 years. It's almost like this dystopia that people have acquired land and power and resources and privilege, both financial means, social cachet, just in a vacuum. And so, you know, in Australia, we have participated since the early 90s in a myriad of royal commissions from the Royal Death in Custody, bringing them home. We've had a failed referendum here. What's different about this process? And what makes us think that Australia is finally ready to, I guess, listen and accept that there are other truths here that existed long before modern governments?

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Yeah, it's look, it's a really great question. I've been reflecting on this and pretty deeply, particularly since the referendum. And I mean, even just hearing a lot of the evidence that we hear, you know, and you said earlier about, you know, this part of also part of the mandate is to develop a shared understanding as we document the true history. And a lot of people don't know of the role that massacres happened. We had our premier come um uh in Victoria a couple of weeks ago and shared with us that she'd grown up on Jarja Run country pretty much most of her life and didn't know that not far from where she lived there was massacre sites. I think that, you know, really just trying to continually educate people, and I know that's a lot of heavy lifting that our people have done for 200 years. We've been saying this stuff for a long period of time. So making sure that we, you know, really are sharing the truths, but also making sure that public are aware of what's happened. Then the Aboriginal Protection Board was established, and a lot of people don't know that. So the protection board was established to protect us, so-called protect us, because we needed protecting from people who were massacring us, and then we'll round it up onto churches and missions and further managed even further again. So this continual impounding of everyone else being able to generate wealth around us and be able to live and work and go about their everyday lives where we have to seek approval. We've had evidence before us where aunties have written to the mission manager to say that they've saved up enough money to buy property to write to the mission manager to say, Hey, will you allow us to leave the mission to be able to purchase the property? We've been made aware that this property is for sale. We have the funds. We don't need any extra support apart from you to say that you release us from the mission. It absolutely breaks your heart to hear this. And this is not, you know, 200 years ago. This is in the last 50 years. You know, 67 people didn't realize that we didn't have any voting rights as a people. But what does give me confidence is we do have the First People's Assembly of Victoria. And I've got to be really careful when I articulate this because our people have been advocating really hard for the Bringing Them Home and Report recommendations and also the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths and Custody recommendations. So what I'm about to say is definitely not to take away from the sheer fight, advocacy, and resistance that our people and our organizations, our ACOs, are who have worked really hard to continue to maintain a strong voice to government about our expectations as a people and them adhering to those expectations. But I feel more confident that we have a First People's Assembly of Victoria. And also part of our mandate is to provide recommendations that go to the negotiations of treaty. So we make recommendations to the First People's Assembly and the Victorian Government, and hopefully they will pick these recommendations up and negotiate them through treaty as well. So what the point of difference here is we have a body that we've elected as mob for the first time that we've elected our people to represent us in those negotiations, and they will keep the pressure on government through those negotiations that are yet to commence. So our recommendations that we put back to government in the assembly can be implemented as well. And where they haven't been, I guess, been able to negotiate those through, we still have a body and a number of people that we have elected to continue to advocate for those recommendations to be implemented alongside to complement, to not take over, but to complement our Aboriginal community-controlled sector as well. So I think that that's something that you know we can't really diminish because our people have fought really hard for those processes and we need to mobilize and capitalize on these processes that are available to us as well. So that's probably a point of difference again, just to reiterate, I don't want to take away from the years and years of struggle and fight, and we've lost and uh elders, and we're continually losing elders. We lost one even just last week. So just you know, we gotta keep that in our minds and keep that in our hearts around, hey, we got work to do, but also we're optimistic. Our people won't give up. We ain't going nowhere. No matter what they've done to us, our people are optimistic. We are passionate, we are committed to see this through, and we will make sure that our children and their children and six generations' children will be able to start to inherit the wealth that they rightfully so deserve.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Really, really appreciate you sort of yeah, guiding us through that journey and reminding us sometimes of that. I think sometimes, yeah, as black fellows in a really violent colony, it can be quite defeating at times. And I think we've all been in a little bit of a repair period right now, particularly heightened by what's happening around global movement and liberation of Indigenous people against settler colonialism more broadly. And I think you're right in just reminding us that so many of our people have fought so hard in these reforms, and you know, not to mention the thousands upon thousands of black fellows who have generously and passionately shared their lived and their families' lived experiences for the betterment of this change, and we really can't lose sight of this really important opportunity. So thanks for that beautiful reminder.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

And and I think as well, it's a really important point that that that you also put out there as well, is that everyone's truths is important, everyone's contribution is important, you know, and I think that that's something that you know I draw upon all the time. You know, it's not only I draw inspiration from my family, but just you know, meeting with mob who come in and um who share their truths, you know, it's inspiring, but it's also, you know, it it drives you to want to see change and and to expect to see change, not just want. We have expectations uh as a people, which is also why we want to continue the fight to fight. And the referendum hurt, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to blow over and diminish that key part. That really hurt. You know, Australia really told us as a people, you know, where we belong and where we sit again. Not the first time they've done that, but again. So, you know, we're dusting ourselves off and we have dusted ourselves on, and and we will show our children what we do best, which is advocate and activate our rights.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah, yeah, that's right. It really did hurt, and many of us are still definitely grappling with where to next. And I know myself have been very much just diverting my interest into this process while still supporting community and our Aboriginal organizations. But, you know, I think there's just there's a real opportunity here for us to, as you say, even just to hear stories and gather this information and to have it for the first time archived, but you know, to really challenge the status quo about what existed and what continues to exist here.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

And also as well, I think one of the things that I'd like to highlight as well is that through the recent land injustice hearings, you know, we highlighted the billions and billions of dollars and how wealthy the state of Victoria is, and how people have seen hardly a cent of that. In in 21-22 financial year, it was over eight billion dollars in revenue generated from water alone. You know, since 1851, $286 billion has been extracted from the land from gold, and the mob have seen zero or repeat that, zero dollars from that wealth that's being created. You know, I mean I can keep going on about statistics and stuff, you know, but at the end of the day, there was billions of dollars, and there was also you know, forestry and grazing licenses and things where our people have been shut out of the system. But also, when we'd asked the minister about why our people have been shut out of the system or didn't receive the benefits uh from a cultural rights point of view, and the minister said, and it's hard for these ministers too to come forward and be able to say some of the stuff that the decisions that were not even their decision at that point in time. But to reiterate, the minister said Aboriginal people, traditional owners, did not meet the threshold because the threshold was set so they could not meet the threshold. That's their words, not our people's words. So this is the importance of truth-telling, truth sharing, and we encourage you know people to come forward. But also, you know, we want to encourage all people to listen in, our people particularly, but also non-Aboriginal people, uh, whether they're in Australia or across the world. You know, we are questioning, you know, the people like the Premier and the Deputy Premier and all ministers responsible for their portfolios that oversee policies against our people, which is every minister who is in government at that particular point in time. There's so much wealth. We live in a wealthy state, and our people, you know, through no fault of their own, have fought really hard for native title, traditional owner settlement agreement, the registered Aboriginal party status, but also, you know, our ACOs, our um our organizations, you know, they have continually told us that they are so under-resourced that they're expected to provide holistic services to help, you know, people and families, but then only funded for one kind of microcosm point. And then they're also overburdened. We heard from one traditional owner group where they had 51 contracts with the same department, funding contracts with the same department. How can they not, you know, in 2024 be streamlining these funding agreements so it reduces the reporting burden? And some of these organizations have 15 to 20 people. You know, I mean, how's how's 15-20 people going to be able to keep up with 50 contracts? So, anyway, just these things are really important, but this is this is what our people are grappling with every day, and the misconception of that our people don't do right or can't do right. I mean, you know, with what our people have had to endure and continually enduring, it's you know just incredibly inspiring for us to be able to keep the momentum up as well.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

We'll be back, you mob, right after this short break. At the moment where we are in this time, you know, I understand that to date there's been five key areas that the Commission have been really particularly interested in. The child protection system, the criminal justice system went first. That resulted in an interim report. And then there's been Elders Truth's work on health and land water skies injustices. You mentioned before about a couple of people. So the Premier, Jacinta Allen, was the first Premier to take the Yurok Commission to take up, I guess, providing evidence. Catherine Henty, you know, on a personal level, have there been people's testimonies in the formal hearing process and through all the other mechanisms? So as I understand, people are providing evidence through written submissions, through yarning circles, through round tables and through the formal hearing process. You know, on a personal note, are there any particular pieces of evidence like you've just mentioned that yeah, really have stayed with you and have had an impact on you?

SPEAKER_03 31:03

Yeah, there's plenty. I mean, so I was fortunate enough to witness a group of mob who shared their truths through dance, didn't need to speak, but just shared their truths through dance. And that and that's just a you know a resistance of being able to practice culture. And I think it just brings me back to and just reminding people that we were forbidden, forbidden to speak language to practice culture and your rations. Your rations would be cut if you were caught. And I really like to overstate the point because rations mean very little to start with, and then if you are further on rations from being able to practice your culture or you're caught, just highlights the inhumane circumstances that our people have had to live through for generations. Um, you know, being out of court to be able to do that. So come forward and sharing their truths through dance and being able to practice, you know, language as well. We've had some fluent language speakers come forward as well who have worked really hard to reclaim the language, but a lot of it is, you know, personal. You can't learn this in schools and so forth. Susanna Henti's evidence as well, which you know that was unique in the sense because not only was the first time it happened, but also was a proud Gunijamara man whose whose ancestors were impacted by her ancestors. And continually to the day, the you know, the continued show of and display of the monument dedicated to the Henty family throughout my ancestors' country, it's a continual and a visual reminder to today about the lack of recognition of our people as well. Even though we fought really hard for UNICESCO World Heritage Listing, which the mob really got, and yes, there was support from government and some key stakeholders there, but that's on the back of our people and our ancestors' vision. And we can't lose sight of that because our ancestors had a vision around sustainability to be able to teach us that eel farming technique, that oldest uh living aquaculture system in the world. So they had a deep vision that that that just was something special. But being able to kick off land injustice hearings on my ancestor's country as well, or in given you know the first boat arrived there, the thistle was the name of the boat that the Henties were on, and being able to kick off, yeah, that on my ancestor's country was certainly something that'll stick with me uh for the rest of my life. But as I said before, just you know, everyday truths of people, you think you've heard it all, and then someone will come out and you're just like, wow, or like or or you'll get the is this still happening? How is this still happening? But it also reinforces uh the point about you know being connected to culture, country, and community. And w what sort of fills the cup up on a continual basis is is engaging my own ceremonies that have been passed down to me through my father and his father and so forth as well. So some men's ceremony stuff there, but also smoking ceremonies, being around mob. You know, as soon as you walk in a room with the mob and stuff, you just smile enough, have a best laugh. And you might be about to talk about sort of traumatic stuff, but then you just have the best laugh and then you get through the business, and then you hang back after for that extra cup of tea, that extra caffeine hit, and you do the business, and then you um you just have a good laugh and you know hear from them and be with them about you know how they are. I remember one particular elder recently who was really unsure. We you know, for six months he was um and an ar and about coming forward to you look and sharing his truth. And Unc um came in and he was quite itchy and irritated, like just uh in the body, because he had a lot of built-up trauma that he just needed to get off his chest. And I sit with that uncle for six hours. I sat with that uncle, bless him, I'll never forget him as well, but six hours. But why I highlight his journey is that after that six hours, I saw it about five hours into the session. Uh, it was over a couple of days, but into the second session, the itching stopped. That's the kind of stuff that drives you, that motivates you. And also, as well, I mean, you know, drawing on my skills from working in government, that was one of the things why I went to work in government, to learn their ways, to understand how they see the world, understand how they see our people, but understand how their systems work. You know, we need our strong advocates on the outside really fighting really hard for change, but we also need deadly strong black, talented people who can not only survive working in government, but also thrive. And they need investment, they need to be out of pathways for their healing as well, so they can ultimately thrive as well. Another point of view there as well is just making sure that we're investing in our women as well. They get forgotten about. You know, I do hear a lot in the media and so forth about women's rights and stuff. I'm very big supporter of that. But then when I look at our women, and our women are at the bottom of the bottom, and that's just it's just not right. And our women have human rights and our women also have cultural rights as well. It breaks my heart, you know, it absolutely breaks my heart to see where our women are at and how you know men are treating them, you know, and and the um, you know, the constant threat of family violence against our women as well just you know really breaks my heart. And it's something that I'm you know uh really passionate about as well. I've been pretty outspoken on this subject, uh, and I'll continue to be outspoken as well. Not for myself, to make it about myself, but to make sure that the voices and our women are being respected, heard, appreciated, and ultimately valued.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Thank you for sharing some of those experiences, which I imagine you're probably still in this, will be in this state of processing a lot of these over the coming months and years to come.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

That's exactly right, you know, and I think it's something that, you know, it's a societal issue and a men's issue. You know, this is a bloke's issue. It's not a women's issue, you know, and I'm not trying to take away and disempower women's voice around this subject. I've been advocating for a long time, you know, and it's time us men step up and start working with other men and calling things out and so forth as well. I think it's really important. And it'll only be further exacerbated by we're about to start, uh we're sorry, we already have started our housing, education, health, and economic prosperity hearings uh where we've encouraged community members to come forward and share their truths, and we're holding hearings. So I encourage people to to engage in in those hearings as well. We will also have relevant senior bureaucrats and also government ministers responsible for those portfolios before us in the next couple of weeks as well. And we will also be focusing on women but also our family violence as well.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Yeah, I want to circle a little bit back to the process if I can. You've got 12 months between now, June 2024 to 2025, where the final report will be submitted. And I want to talk a little bit around the process, where we are and and what's happened. So hearings have been happening for the last 12 months, almost 12 months, yeah. And Yruk has delivered an interim report in June 2022, and then in August 2023, in the myriad of stuff that was happening with the with the referendum, the URUC Commission delivered a critical issues report. And in that report contained 46 key preliminary recommendations, and a lot of what has come through it talks to what we as black fellows inherently know, which is that Australia is a racist colony, which has been built on racism, and that we think about systems and policies as these kind of mythical things, but they're really public policy decisions that have been built and based, and the decisions have been made because of its proximity to race and power and privilege. And so that the report was quite groundbreaking, and to date, we've we've heard from the Victorian government, and they have supported four of the 46 recommendations in full and 24 in principle, and I think a 15 or so are being considered, and I believe, if my math is right, three were not considered entirely. I want to ask your thoughts on the government's responses in principle so far. What's quite interesting is there's been lots of evidence that's been provided by ministers. One of the most memorable ones for me was Minister Natalie Hutchins, who is responsible for leading the treaty process in Victoria and kind of quoting the Productivity Commission's report around this inertia in government and that there's this goodwill that government just doesn't understand self-determination or it doesn't understand racism. And so I want to ask, yeah, what are your thoughts on the government's responses so far? And does that give you confidence that this government is ready to really walk the talk?

SPEAKER_03 39:26

I'm always really clear. I always speak truth. You look, and I have an expectation that all those recommendations be implemented, and I'll continue to tell government that in every public forum that I get the opportunity to do that. As you said, you know, this is hundreds and hundreds of people coming forward and sharing their truths. This is not anecdotal evidence of we just felt like putting these recommendations forward. So first and foremost, I want to make that point really clear to people listening in, and hopefully some Victorian government people are listening in as well. But yeah, that I have an expectation, the commissioners have an expectation, the five of us, that we back in those recommendations, all 46 of them as well. So I think that's something that we'll continue to advocate for. But yes, it is pretty underwhelming. It is very underwhelming as a proud Gunjimara fella to hear government come forward and say that they've knocked out, you know, three of the recommendations, and I kind of put all the rest into still under consideration, because we haven't got clarity. I mean, when you get clarity is when we fully endorse or we fully back in, i.e. the four. But us as a commissioners, we still have expectations and will continue to be asking the tough questions of government when they're on the stand. One thing I do really want to reiterate uh to people listening in that we will be holding accountability hearings later this year. Not many people know about that, but we will be holding accountability hearings where we'll be calling relevant ministers and potentially the chief commissioner of police back to answer questions relating to the You Look for Justice report, which made those 46 recommendations as well around where they're at on the implementation progress and also what they're doing about making sure that they are working alongside the assembly to implement the recommendations. And that's why we have the assembly. It goes to my earlier point around we have an elected body who are also back in and endorsed pretty publicly they came out strongly to back in our report. So while we are about to start negotiations of treaty, I would no doubt, well I am confident that those 46 recommendations, alongside the future recommendations that we will provide in the rest of the inquiry that'll cover land, skies and waters, health, housing, education, and economic prosperity as well. You know, it is underwhelming, but I also want to encourage people still to come forward and share their truths. It's not wasted. Again, we are documenting the true history of Victoria. We're documenting and articulating the official public record to develop a shared understanding for people. This is not anecdotal, we just cook these up overnight. This is hundreds and hundreds of people coming forward and sharing their truths. This is us going into prisons, you know, throughout the state, talking to prisoners, getting their lived experience and understanding. But a lot of the evidence not only just comes from community, it comes from government, it comes from the policies and procedures they adhere to. People created the system. The system did not create itself. So people create these systems and people can change these systems. And one of the things we've noticed is it's really hard to change legislation, but at the same time, they've always changed legislation to make sure that we are continually shut out of the system and that we are judged and that we are misrepresented in many different facets. Again, in the changes to bail, and they knew negatively that that would have an in a disproportionate impact on our people, and yet they still pushed that through. So, you know, this is really important. Raise the age. We have an expectation that that gets sorted straight away, not a transitional pathway model. We have the evidence backed up.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

It's really interesting to hear you say that, because like, yeah, you're right, it's it comes down to this goodwill, but then also the pace that things need to change and governments' ability to accept that these things need to be, some things need to speed up, some things need to slow down, and at all turns and angles, self-governance and self-determination from mobs need to be centered throughout. Is it the view that the both the interim and the final reports that those recommendations that are shaped up will complement the treaty process, as we've mentioned, and provide the public record, but ultimately really shape the public policy process? Or is it the view that these hearings will shape how government engages with mob and sets up governance arrangements and public policy broadly? Is there that practical element that government will shift how it does its day-to-day business based off some of these recommendations?

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Well, that's a really good question. And I think it's actually starting to have an impact. Impact, even though it might not be systemic like our people expect. But I think seeing ministers come before the commission, and I've had many conversations with them during the hearings, but also afterwards when standing there, and and and I can guarantee that every single one of them has said, I have learned so much about the system, but also about you know how Aboriginal people, Aboriginal Torres Islander people have been impacted by our laws and our policies and the way we go about working with them as well. I mean, we talk about shared understanding, it's also them coming through a process also gets them to understand because I'm sure they're asking questions of, well, why didn't black fellas meet the threshold? I mean, you could see the minister quivering when he said that to us. And it's just like, you know, these people are human as well at the end of the day, and yes, they need to be accountable for the systems that they are ultimately implementing, and we don't shy away from that. But so they have also shared about you know their experience in coming forward and their not knowing and stuff. But the challenge is that when you apologize and you come forward, you go back and you actually make change. And I think that's where the expectations come in is that, yep, you can come forward and you can say, okay, well, I didn't know. However, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. And we we need to see change, you know, we need to see drastic change now. Having the ability to educate, you know, not just Victorians, but all Australians on on the true history and just you know, many people coming forward and just going, I didn't know that. We can Google when there's something wrong with us, you know, if we've got a runny nose, we might do a quick Google. But when it comes to you know, Googling about our people around what's happened and so forth, and this is what we need to encourage people to do. Look for um look to our website. It's pretty accessible where you can click on hearings and see witnesses that have come before. And some of them may be your family, but also some of them you may have heard of, or some of them might not have been as well. So, but again, I stick by that as accountability hearings later in the year to call people back to make sure that they are getting on and implementing the recommendations.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing about the accountability hearings and just everything you're doing at this commission process. The thing that I take away from that point is to have a changed kind of consciousness or a change in how we see the world, it really means that we have to integrate this into our practice, into our day-to-day, into who we are and what country we really want to be. That involves some action as well as this sort of change in our consciousness. Where are we at now? So you mentioned you're doing education, health, and housing now. Are we at the final stages of the hearing processes? What's the sort of next little journey look like? And where can community come and participate and be a part of this if they're not already?

SPEAKER_03 46:43

That's right. So we have started last week uh health, housing, education, and economic prosperity. And that's something that we've only been able to cut through in the last sort of 15, 20 years around setting up Aboriginal businesses and so forth as well, and being able to generate self-determination through that lens. So we feel that it's really important as a commission that we inquire into that. Those hearings started last week and we'll be doing them for the next month. So again, having senior bureaucrats and ministers responsible, but also hearing from community as well over that next month period. But we're continually advocating and encouraging people to come forward and share their truths as well. It doesn't matter how how important you think they are or how less important at the end of the day, reach out. We have our truth receivers who we'll connect with as well to be able to come talk through the process, social and emotional well-being to help people through that process. I think that's incredibly important that we don't skip on that, we don't skint on that, because that's really important to be able to help our people through healing as well, pre and post them coming forward and sharing their truths as well. Yeah, so wanting to encourage people to do that, but also legal advice as well, around being able to make sure that you've got coverage for some of the things that you need to share and want to share as well. And most of the time, you know, you're receiving through this process with your own people as well, which is incredibly important and powerful, that you don't need to explain those really important things that a lot of non-Aboriginal people, when they try to work with our people, get really wrong as well. So, you know, they're open till the end of the year. So we're encouraging people to do that. And also we'll be going around the state to talk about some of the things we've heard from um the land injustice inquiry as well. But we are developing a report uh to go back to government, and that takes a lot of time because again, we don't just cook these things up out of anecdotal and how we feel, evidence and so forth. This is actually we've got to um deeply look at the evidence that we've received from community, importantly, but also government and the witness statements and what they say on the stand as well, and we'll make recommendations to go back to the First People's Assembly of Victoria and government to negotiate through treaty. So that'll take a bit of time because we want to get those recommendations right. As we did in the last report, out of the 46, they were right, and also we're thinking about how we look to close out the commission and what other sort of things that we'll be doing, but primarily it's focusing in on encouraging people to come forward, share your truths, get in while we can, and also yeah, developing the report and the recommendations to go back to government alongside that accountability hearing later in the year. So uh watch this space, and you know it's great uh for people to be able to come on the pathway to a shared future. We're not at a shared future yet, but through treaty and truth telling, we can truly be on a shared future that ultimately enables our people to be self-determining, that recognizes not only our human rights, but recognizing our cultural rights as first peoples under UNDRIP and making sure that people understand that Aboriginal people do have inherent cultural rights to land, water, their laws, their customs, their language and traditions. That's a little bit different to human rights, even though it is a form of human rights, but that's something special that we expect those cultural rights to be adhered to alongside our basic human rights around services, health, housing, education, and economic prosperity and so forth as well. Again, thanks for the opportunity to come and uh yarn up with you. It's always deadly, and appreciate you uh and the work that you're doing and the voices that you're sharing and the messages that you're putting out there to our people. Um, you know, we're really proud of the work that you're doing. Stay strong and make sure you're looking after yourself. We've got plenty of work to do, and let's get cracking and make sure we make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Thank you so, so much. I really, really appreciate you sharing and being on the show today and just all the work you're doing for our communities too, and your families and yeah, mobs who are looking at this process from other parts of this continent, watching the leadership that you're showing and the grace and passion that you bring to this work. For others, I really appreciate you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Too Nedley. In my language, we say wuruk, which means for now we never say goodbye. We always see each other again. So wuruk.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Thank you so much for listening, you mob. If you are vibing this season of Yanni Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecow.com.au