Kristal Kinsela - Utilising supplier diversity policy to boost First Nation businesses

In this episode, Caroline is joined by Kristal Kinsela - fellow podcast host, experienced facilitator and an expert in supplier diversity policy. A proud descendant of both the Jawoyn and Wiradjuri nations, Kristal has worked with well-known global businesses and every level of government over the past 18 years to drive their supplier diversity efforts, giving talented Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander small businesses access to greater opportunities. 

Caroline and Kristal yarn about their shared experience of taking the leap from their 9-5 into consultancy, and the joys of running podcasts focused on telling black stories. Kristal also breaks down for Caroline and you mob what supplier diversity really is, what it means and how it opens doors for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses. When Kristal noticed a lack of resources on the subject here in Australia, she took her wealth of knowledge and self- published a book titled Supplier Diversity How, which is based on her proven approach (all while managing a 3 month old we might add!). So grab your headphones and access the wisdom of this passionate leader and advocate for First Nation businesses.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show! 

Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here! 

We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.

This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.

www.ontrackstudio.com.au

@on.track.studio

For advertising opportunities please email hello@ontrackstudio.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio. Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Black Waddle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cal. We acknowledge the Rurundari people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today. It always was and always will be unseated Aboriginal and Torreshed Red Islander land. I'm super excited about my next guest, a sissy, a mother, a podcast, a business owner, an author, and just an all-round legend. I have been following your work for such a long time, Crystal, and it's just so deadly that you're here today to connect and have a yarn. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Thanks for having me. I know we've had a couple of false starts, but we're here today and I'm so looking forward to this yarn.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

We had the pleasure of meeting in the flesh last year, and we're going to talk about Crystal's show, Meet the Mob. But Crystal and I are one of the five podcasters who were signed with Blackcast, which is the first podcast network. I was in a room where I was feeling so out of my element, and I saw you, and I just felt instantly at ease. So it's so nice that we kind of get to connect in this way.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I was telling you when I met you as well. I'd been following your work as well. Isn't it crazy how social media can connect and bring people together? And then what was so nice was just when we did meet face to face, how that just translated in flesh. Because I felt instantly connected to you. I was like, I felt like I knew you. And I was feeling a little bit out of my element on that day, not knowing what to expect. So it was cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

And it was so nice for us to all be acknowledged and celebrated and the work that Mara and the team are doing to bring this network to life and to showcase the amazing work of people like you and myself and others. It was really special. And you're right, sometimes social media can get a little bit of a bad rap, I guess. But with the beauty of it, is we're already a part of a dynamic community being a part mob. But then also we get to connect with these like-minded blackfallers who are like in our eco chambers and networks. And so yeah, it was really beautiful. But I'm so excited to unpack and learn more and more about you today because you are doing some incredible things. I must admit, I looked at your website and a bit of a few things in preparation for today, and I was just like, damn, you busy. So yeah, I'm really excited to get to know more about you today. But as we do on this show, we always like to start with finding out a bit about you. So where's your mob? Where did you grow up? Can you tell me a little bit about yeah, you and your personal story?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Look, I'm a very proud Jawan and Maradri woman. I'm a fifth generation Jarwin woman. So my family originate from Pine Creek in the Northern Territory. So that's my matriarchal line. And then my grandfather was from Kondoblin in central western New South Wales. I grew up my entire childhood and some of my adult life in Western Sydney. So I know you're from Victoria, but there's always a bit of a stigma that exists when you talk about Western Sydney. I always say good things come out of the west. Yes, I grew up on Derrick Country and I moved to Beerpie Country on the Midnorth Coast about 18 years ago, and that's where I was residing until uh four weeks ago when I moved to Old Heroa to New Zealand and starting another new adventure over here. So I also have a German father who I didn't grow up with, and so sometimes that's a little bit foreign, but sometimes that helps explain I don't know, some nuances about me, but also how I look because I do look like my dad. But yeah, I'm a mum first and foremost. I've got three children of my own that are 19, 17, and 5, and then I've got three beautiful stepdaughters that are 25, 21, and 20 from two marriages. So it's lots of people, lots of lives going on there. You know, just running kids, I think, is a challenge in itself. This will be my ninth year in business, which is phenomenal because as a little girl growing up in Housing Commission in Western Sydney to a single mother who was on welfare, to say you've been self-employed and self-determined for nine years, that's pretty incredible, right? In itself. I've been a bit of a trailblazer in some respects amongst my immediate and extended family. I'm a little bit unique. I don't know if that makes me mad, but yeah, which is pretty cool. So yeah, I've done a lot of things. I've traveled around the world just because I I love our people. I have such a desire. I think what the thing that drives me, which will help give some essence to why I do lots of things and why I'm doing all the things, is because too often, I mean, I've been at the brunt, you've probably experienced it yourself: racial discrimination, prejudice, and unconscious bias. And so I've really made it my mission through business to really demystify and break down the bias. That's what I want to do. Quite often we emphasize and we highlight the deficit narrative, right? But I feel like when we speak into that, we almost perpetuate that cycle. And so I'm all about and I'm driven by let's amplify the success, let's amplify black excellence. And so I'm really privileged to be able to have created a business around being able to do that on a daily basis. And it's it's a lot of hard work, but it's fun, right? But it's right into my passion.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

It's so simple. As black fellows, we do this all the time. We always ask about people's stories, but it gives you such an insight into who you are. And there's a few things that you said that I'd love to just unpack a little bit. Firstly, just as two tidas talking here, as a First Nations person going to Autoroa, how are you feeling with this process? Does it feel like so familiar? I think for our overseas listeners, you know, our New Zealand is our neighbouring mobs and we share a lot of similarities. We're all very different. But yeah, I wonder what that experience in moving has brought up for you.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

I mean, I've been coming to this country for about eight years because my ex-husband is Maori. And so I had that opportunity through our marriage and the birth of our son to be able to spend time over here. And I always felt this, I don't know, I always felt really close and connected. Whilst we have some complexities around the number of mob and different nations and different language and dialect in Australia, there are things that are parallel in the way our culture is to Māori. They have what's called tikanga, and that is sort of their set of principles around how things are and how you behave. And I've just noticed and I've seen, oh, that's the same for us. Oh yeah, that's what we do. The things that they call tapu is tapu for us, so it's forbidden you don't do that. So things like respecting your elders and children are really important, so their children will come first. And then other silly things like, well, not really silly, but not putting anything to do with the head on tables, particularly where you're going to have food. Like that's real tapu. Whilst this is the first time I've lived out of Australia for a big period of time. I I lived in Hawaii for six months when I was studying my undergrad. I wasn't fearful in making the transition because I feel so familiar to this place. And Mori people, there's a rich diversity of Māori and Pacifica, and there's lots of people that have shared both Māori and Pacific background. Everybody's been so welcoming to me. They've just been so, you know. I have a few little jokes going because I go, isn't there about the same number of Maori people living in Australia as there is actually Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders? Yeah. Yeah. So you can't get upset about me coming to your land because there's a whole lot of you mob over there, right? We have little jokes about that, but I feel like I've landed and I've hit the ground running for four weeks. And in four weeks, sis, if you could imagine what I've done in four weeks, move into a house, buy a car, get two boys enrolled and settled into school, doing all those start of school things, join a gym because I'm training for Mount Everest, which I leave for next week. And then just trying to start life and still operate, run a business and you know, all of those sorts of things. So I think life is a constant juggle and it is about your mindset and how you respond, how you show up, but also the routines and things that you put in place to survive, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Exactly right. Like it's the it's the discipline, it's the sacrifice, it's all of that stuff that doesn't m really make for cute business logos and slogans. It's the yeah, it's the the foundations. If you're not nurturing self, how can you climb Mount Everest and get your kids into school and do all these things? So you're so right. And I think with that, sis, you know, you that you mentioned before about being one of your families who have broken the cycles. And I can really relate to that similarly. And also we grew up in housing commissions too, and you know, and to the point you said about, you know, combating racism and seeing our strengths. When I think about growing up in Stoke Street and housing commissions, I really feel that that taught me the foundations of community. Like you people from an afar would look at it and say there's impoverishment and dysfunction, and people can't look after themselves. But from where we were as kids, we always had people around looking after ourselves, and it was the village. And mum was uh mostly single at the time, and so she would kind of palm ours off to an auntie here and this and that. And so there is this beauty, and like we build this resilience and and growth mindset from these environments. But the point you made about um I guess being one of the first or the tailblazers, like sometimes I don't know, do you feel sometimes that it does come at a great cost at ourselves sometimes? Like some days I have moments where I'm like, I'm doing something that none of my family have ever done before, and I'm trying to create a path that I can support my family, but gee, it's isolating at times and it's scary and overwhelming, and there's no life vest to grab onto. It's just you and yours. So yeah, I just wanted to ask you about that. Like, do you have moments where you're like, far out, what am I doing? Maybe not now after being in business for nine years.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah, I think I definitely do have moments like that. I think maybe really early on in the piece, more so, because you're walking a path no one in your family has walked. You're doing things that they've never done before. And so then they don't necessarily understand you or what's driving you or what's your why around that. That can be really challenging. I mean, I just think about, I'll tell you a quick, a really quick yarn, but I did my MBA, my Master of Business Administration, and I did that at uh UNSW over five years, running business, running kids, and still, you know, studying part-time. But I remember when it came up time for graduation, I invited my mum to my MBA graduation. And she looked at me and she said, What is an MBA? What did you do that for? And I said, Oh, well, you know, it's it's really good in the business, in business mum, you know, people will that'll give me credibility. I said, Do you want to come to the graduation? I'd really love it if she goes, Oh no, no, I I don't know what that's all about. No, you go, that that'll be fine. For a moment there, I was hurt that she didn't want to come. But at the same time, her worldview and her lens, the the generation she grew up in, it's just so different. And so she just doesn't understand the the world that I'm operating in. So quite often I just have to go, you know, there's no judgment. There's with any of my family, it's we all have a right to live our lives the way that we choose, and you just got to come at it from a place of love all the time. So I just go, hey, that's all right, mum. I'll send you a photo, and you know, I hope you'll be proud, you'll be proud of that one day. The penny might drop of how important that was for me. And and so I have moments like that all the time where I go, I'm scratching my head going, okay, they don't they don't get it again. So no one quite understands, you know, and I think then you you you have different types of family members where you'll have family that really are like so proud of you that they they don't might not get it, but they go, Yeah, you you're doing great. You'll have other family that will be, oh what, you know, who's this flash one, you know, who's she big knoting herself over there?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, that's the hardest thing, I think, sometimes when we get met with that. And like, it's like you don't have to be my greatest cheerleader, but don't be running me down, you know. Like, you know, you don't have to be on the sidelines, but that whole, yeah, you're too big now, you flash one and all that, it's it is yeah, it's tricky that to navigate, I think.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

It totally is. And I think probably the final thing I would say in all of this is you actually get to choose a family around you. And that's that is something that I have learned so strongly since being in business is you can choose your family. And your my family is the titter hood that sits around me, right? Is the other girlfriends that are on the same journey. I've got uh also, you know, best mates, my best mate David Williams. You know, we we've we're we're in business, so we know what it's like to show up, what we're doing, the purpose that we have, and how we're driven. And we're we're that support network because we're all those trailblazers that are all of a symbol of age, doing similar things. And so I think that also gives me that comfort and that support is well, I I I have amazing, beautiful, you know, family over here that I've inherited through my life, but I've also created new families with the people that I choose to keep. And I and choose is the optimum word there because I have friends by choice.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

It's such a powerful and liberating thing to realize that, yeah, you do have the power and the choice to decide who you want to allow in your circle to take up energy and to take up, yeah, your time, which is so sacred. And yeah, not everyone is going to be ultra supportive, but I think we can surround ourselves with people who are on the same page, like you say. And also, too, often I always think that people are only able to love you through the capacity or the lens within which they can truly love their own selves and lives. And so often it's really not nothing got anything to do with us. It's it's more about what is going on for that individual, and like you say, meeting them with more compassion and love.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

That's totally it. Yeah, it's taken me, it's taken a lot of work to kind of get really comfortable in in being able to do that. Like it's it's never easy, right? It's there's always a journey. I'm a very sensitive soul, right? So I feel and experience things really deeply. But I think I've done a lot of work on myself, and I think the more work that you do on yourself, the more at one you become with that and more healed, then then you have greater capacity to show that compassion and that love to others. And you can recognize that sometimes when they're yeah, whatever they're saying to you is actually a deflection or it's indicating that's what's actually going back on for them.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

But we mirror the behavior. And also we if we mirror who we choose to spend time with, is who we choose to pick up on their characteristics and habits. I always try my best to put myself in places and spaces where there are people who are doing incredible things and who are living their boldest lives so that it continually inspires me to do that. No, I don't want to be that person in the room where I'm the expert. I like to be in places where I'm not. And so, yeah, you're right, we do have an ability when we're creating this path, as scary as it is some days, to do it in a way that feels right for us and to surround ourselves with the right people. All right, let's talk about your business. Crystal Kinchella Consulting. I am blown away with the amount of things that you have done. Can you talk to us about your business? So, what is it? What do you do? Give us the lowdown.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, well, before I get onto Crystal Kinsella Consulting, I want to kind of just take a moment just to acknowledge the journey that got me to this. I started this particular business three years ago in March in 2021. But prior to that, I'd been in another consulting business. And it was in that consulting business, IPS Management Consultants, that I was one of the three bounding partners and helped to grow that business off the back of the Indigenous Procurement Policy, the Commonwealth Indigenous Procurement Policy. And so my former business partners, they had come together in 2015 when the IPP had got launched. And then they brought me on in 2016. And, you know, we tackled, we chased the IPP. We we learned everything we could, every nuance about it. And then we were almost reversing ourselves back into government departments, getting them, educating them about their own policy, but then getting them to come and do business with us. And that was a phenomenal business because it had some great success. It grew into a multi-million dollar business with lots of staff. And I caught up with my former business partners last year, and you know, they're they've got 70 staff now. So I left the business after five years.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Just on that, like that is a huge achievement, you know, like a small consultancy firm to grow the legs to have that is wild. So just acknowledging that the foundations at UMOB set, like totally.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Well, listen, I was a broke black before that. So before IPS, I actually had to start a business to create a job for myself. And I was a sole trader. And the first my first year of business, I was lucky to scrounge together$18,000. I was a single mum at that time of two kids, and I didn't know what I didn't know. And so that's why I really like to acknowledge IPS and that journey because that taught me a lot. I learned a lot about business, I learned a lot about procurement, I lot learned a lot about how things work and how to play the game in business. And so after five years, I realized that I wanted to be more specific. I wanted to work in a different way. COVID also gave me a values realignment to say, well, these have been important to you, but you really need to make them more important moving forward. And that was around my family. And so in 2021, that's when I embarked on this new journey. So leaving that five years, but taking all the lessons learned and the success put me in great steed to set up KK consulting and specialize in something that I'm so passionate about, which is called supplier diversity. So I know your listeners are probably going, what the hell is supplier diversity?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I mean, that is an incredible story. And I think it's beautiful that you share that because often, even when I'm doing coaching, and I'm sure when you're doing coaching, people get this view that there's like overnight success. And the truth of the matter is, and it's not glamorous, but black fellas have to work double hard for less pay. You know, we we have a lot more hurdles to jump through. And so I think it's nice to give people a true and honest reflection of where we start and where we go and the journey. And it's not like a seamless one. Like if you see somebody who's like killing it in their business and is doing really great things, it ain't a coincidence. It's a lot of hard yaka. So I think it's nice that you share that and honor that.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Totally that this stuff doesn't happen overnight, listeners. It's a journey, and and you I think it's there's lots of trial and error. And I think if you're someone like me, I'm also a risk taker. Even my exit of IPS was something that I just woke up one morning and I went, today's the day. And they had no warning. I go into a meeting with my ex-business partners and I say, Hey, by the way, I've decided I want to leave and I'm gonna do that. And I was out of the business in the next four weeks and catapulted my next thing. So you just I just know I trust my gut instinct in everything.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

With that in mind, and because I I feel like people ask me that too sometimes, say, what's the secret? And yeah, being able to not personalize any failure, like not take it on like I have failed, rather, something I did didn't work. Like, you know, I think that is that is the secret. One, you have to be comfortable in improvising and taking risks. And I think when you're like slightly impulsive, it's good because you can just do those things. But also, too, like, yeah, not personalizing any failures or setbacks. It's like We did a workshop a couple of weeks ago and we had bugger all people rock up and I probably could have gone home and thought, oh my God, no one, you know, wants to come along. The business is but I was like, Oh, maybe we got like the time wrong or the maths wrong or, you know, maybe it's got nothing to do with us, you know. I think so that is a really secret, I think, about being able to just let things go and let things come in. Let it go, let it come in. Don't take on every little thing as if it's your personal failure, but also just knowing when it's time and to just trust your own gut, trust your own intuition.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

And, you know, we have the power to create what we want to create. And so that that was for me. So supply diversity is just all about organizations buying from a diverse supplier. And so, in an Australian context, a diverse supplier is an Indigenous business and a business that identifies and has been certified or registered as an Aboriginal Torresh Islander business. There are other broader categories of what a diverse supplier might look like if we were looking around the world, because supply diversity is something that came from America, from the USA, off the back of the civil rights movement. Is it like an affirmative action sort of strategy? Totally. Yeah. It started, it started with African American people. And so it was something that President Nixon at the time, back in the, I think the early 60s, he introduced this executive order that said the US government shall buy from you know African American businesses to help create some sort of equity and parity for them. And then that expanded to other types of diverse businesses in the USA. Asian-owned businesses, Hispanic-owned businesses, you know, African American, Native American as well. So in our context, it's been very much driven from an Indigenous business perspective. But there are organizations here that have global or multinational presence that do take a broader lens. So for instance, we do have some organizations that have a very big focus. So they'll determine a diverse supplier as an Indigenous business, a woman-owned business, a business owned by an LGBTIQ plus person who identifies across there. So yeah, it can be mean lots of things. So in the space I work with, it's primarily around I'm helping. I'm a bit of a an intermediary that works between Indigenous business as the supply and corporate and government as the demand. You're like a black broker up in here. Black broker, yes. Trying to make these two fellas understand each other and do more business together. So that's that's my primary part of my service offering in my business. And that looks like, you know, helping organizations around their policies and practices. I help them around their people and culture. So training, unconscious bias training, I deliver. And then I help them around the engagement piece. So sometimes they want me to help introduce them to businesses. And sometimes I'm working on the supplier side where I'm working around capability. But those things aside, my other two kind of areas, or my kind of skill sets, we know we all have kind of trade areas, but because I come from an organizational development background, I'm a coach, I'm an executive coach and do coaching for individuals, performance coaching, but I'm also a master facilitator. So I've been a teacher and an adult educator. And so I'm a lecturer at UNSW. And then yeah, I facilitate. So I do lots of process facilitation and stuff like that, which I love. I love facilitating. Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

It's so it's so amazing to hear more about yeah, the things that light you up and thinking about change. It it involves all of those things and being able to bring people together to create spaces for meaningful yarns is so special. We'll be back, you mob, right after this short break. In the context of in Australia, so what is the percentage of all government expenditure that does have to be set aside, rather, for black businesses? Is there targets and things? There is, totally.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

So if we just think about the Commonwealth IPP, they have a 3% target, which is both a contract number. So the number of contracts has to equate to 3% across all their contracts that they award. And they also have a value base. So 3% of the value of contracts have to go to Indigenous businesses. And so they can do that by sole sourcing going direct to Indigenous businesses. They've got a mandatory set aside. So any contract that's between$80,000 and$200K, they have to demonstrate how they've considered an Indigenous business in that regard. So quite often we'll see Commonwealth departments go anything from a dollar to$200K, they're going to try and consider and try to award the contract to an Indigenous business, which is really, I mean, that's that's what's bolstered. If you think about how much money the Commonwealth government spends of our taxpay dollars, they spend$50 billion a year. So think about 3% of the volume. It's pretty it's a huge part. It's an absolutely huge part.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Can I ask too, like, so be being in this sort of juxtapose between, you know, governments and mob businesses, sort of like at the epicenter of all this kind of innovation and stuff, you know, what are you seeing with black businesses? Like, can you talk some of the listeners through this explosion of First Nations businesses? Because I truly, I think I've said this on the show before, and I'll say it again probably, but I truly believe that black fellas are the most entrepreneurial and resourceful people ever. Like we can make lemonades out of lemon and some, you know, make some scones and johnny cakes too. But I think what's really tricky at times is that we don't have capital, we don't have the intergenerational wealth. And so that inhibits our visions and our ability. So we need like these processes to exist and for governments to actually say, no, we need to make sure that we are supporting Indigenous procurement because First Nations business is important. And the more that we can self-determine and get some cash, the less we are reliant on them and welfare and other things. So it's it's a really important initiative. But yeah, what are you seeing with black businesses? Like, what's what are you exposed to in that?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Oh, it's it's a huge gamut. I see a lot of everything, right? So at one end, I'll see businesses so innovative and so sophisticated and growing. And I'm seeing, you know, small businesses move to medium, that are moving to large, growing into these really big, thriving entities. You'll see some other businesses that are really just happy. They might be, you know, a family-owned business and they know where they where they fit in their marketplace, and they're really happy to be over here. We do still get some people that haven't really done their homework about business. And so sometimes that takes a little bit of nurturing, a little bit of conversations about really getting them to be really self-aware about who they are, what their offering is, is somebody buying your offering. And this is something I constantly come back, and I go, there's so much publicly available data available online about what the Commonwealth Government spends its money on, who it awards contracts to, that there's no excuse for not doing your research. And so I do see some businesses that they assume I'm indigenous, I'm indigenous business, I'm gonna win contracts. And so I really try to work with them to say you want to be known because you've got the best quality product or service. And then you're indigenous, right? So let's focus and harness in on that, right? What is your unique point of difference? What's the value proposition you're bringing? If no one's buying what you're selling, I'm sorry you are not in business. I I meet heaps of people, right? And they they have a passion for something, or they might be really good at something, but it's that translation to turning it into something that actually makes profit. So what I say to them is you don't have to give that away. But what you need to do is you need to find something that's going to generate you money, that then you can actually have the time to do what you what you love. It's a bit of a balancing act. But if this is not going to get the wheels turning, it's a hobby, right? What I find is that there can be a real uncomfortableness amongst mob in talking about wealth creation or make or being commercial, right? But unfortunately, if you want to thrive in business, you have to think commercially. You have to think about making money because the wheels have got to turn. It's not, it's not about being greedy or going, I'm gonna be loaded and dollar dollar bills, but it has to be something that you've got to find some comfortableness in saying, I'm in business, I need to make money because I've got to keep the lights on and put food on the table.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah, God, it's so everything you're saying are things that I've had a million existential crises about. And you're right, you can have all the gusto and enthusiasm and everything looked pretty and here we are, come and buy. But in the spirit of being really open and transparent with everyone, you know, when we started the business, we really struggled to solidify who is our target market, like who is buying from us. Like, because like you say, business is value in exchange of goods or services. So it has to be an exchange. And we were like, we just want to sell to black women, that's our audience. And we wanted to, we've already got all of these relationships. We thought I've come from governments, I've come from treaty space, I could sort of just bring all of my parts and pieces together and cobble together a business. And we started, and yeah, it was very, it wasn't like we hit the ground running straight away. It took, you know, a good 12 months to see any revenue really come through the door. But we spent a lot of time being like, who are we servicing? Who's buying? And I think this is the tricky thing about black businesses, particularly, is that at its core, we are like for Black Waddle, we are servicing Aboriginal women and Aboriginal communities. But there's also a stratosphere where there's Aboriginal organizations and services. We also have to have dual clients, so we work with governments to support the Aboriginal women and the families. So yeah, I think it can be really tricky as a black business to be like, this is my niche, this is who I am, and stand by that. I think it was really tricky for us. We wanted to be everything to everyone, and we just almost recreated a burnout story again. And then the other thing is that, like you say, it's just dedicating time to get confident in those skills and those areas, right? And the money story, like you say, I still struggle with it. I try to like, I don't want to recreate the capitalist process and I don't really, but we you do have to think like a business to be sustainable. And the other thing too is I've got staff now. So like I, it's not just my livelihood, like it's four other people that I've got to worry about. And so that transition from being a sole trader to a small, to a medium, to a large business, every iteration is gonna bring new challenges. Some of them might be repeated. So you wrote a book around this, like, this is obviously something you're so passionate about, supplier diversity. It's a five-step guide to indigenous business procurement. And firstly, you know, just appreciating the labor that you would put into that because that product will produce or has produced a no-nonsense guide for government to understand how to work with black businesses. So, you know, thank you for that. If someone was to pick up the book, what would they expect? What would they, what would they find? How would you explain the book?

SPEAKER_00 34:21

The reason I wrote the book was because there was no literature anywhere in Australia about doing business with Indigenous business. And so the common question that I always got is well, how do we implement a program? What does it look like? What are the the important processes or the important architecture, you know, things that we need in order for this to be successful? And so I mean, I'd I'd already been working in the space. I'd spent some time at Supply Nation before I went into business. I worked there in the really early days when Supply Nation was known as AIDS. And so I had all this wealth of knowledge. I'd also looked internationally and I'd been overseas to both the United States and to England, to London to look at their models. And so I just went, you know what? I'm gonna put pen to paper, or you know, typing, I should say, and I'm gonna I'm gonna write write the book. So the book is it's five steps, it's a framework, it's not a one size fits all. So it has the ability to say, these are this is what we think are the is the checklist steps. You can do it in any order, or you can follow the order as the book goes, but it's just it's in a voice that is central to coming up at it from an indigenous business lens. So I want them to not only go, this is what I need to do, but this is why I need to do it, because it's going to help. It's an Indigenous business voice that's telling me that this will work. And so I've really tried to also demystify some of the bias that exists in the marketplace, talk to them about what are our business challenges in it so that they can understand. So, yeah, it's been it's been really, really successful. It's in its second edition now, which is so cool. I facilitated a workshop in Brisbane in 2016, and I met this lady named Diane, and she was a visual recorder. So we were working together on a process facilitation. I was facilitating, she was visually capturing the notes, and we we really connected. And she said to me, Send me your address. And so she sent me a book, and it was her book, and her book was called How to Bake a Book, and it was a step guide to writing your own and self-publishing your own book. And I met with her, and she's like, You've got a book in there, and I met so I met with her back in 2017, I think it was, and we started thinking about the idea, and then I just got so busy I just parked it. And it wasn't until 2019, I just had a three-month-old baby, and I go, I've got to come back to business after having three months' maternity leave. The Kinect conference that Supply Nation runs is happening in May. I've got to get this book out, and the pressure was on. So I wrote the book in four months, had it edited, and had it printed and launched it at the Kinect 2019 event in May. And I only started writing that in January of 2019 with a three-month-old baby. But you know what?

SPEAKER_01 37:34

It would have just been all flowing from your on a cellular level. You would have been able to just know all of that stuff. But wow, that is impressive for anyone out there. You know, that is a monumental task. Well, for anyone who is listening and wants to learn about this process, go and look at, I'm gonna put this all in the show notes, but I love me a practical toolkit book that I can work through steps, especially things like managing change and having, you know, some templates and checklists and way to sort of navigate that. So um, we'll pop the book in the show notes for anyone who wants to learn about this, especially those who are working in governments or adjacent to governments and who are providing grants and and money to mob. But on the flip side, sis, I wanted to ask you a question because I I know you have a wealth of knowledge. But thinking about black businesses, what advice would you maybe give somebody who is wanting to take a step in their business, no matter where they're at, in terms of elevating their vision and thinking beyond where they are? I mean, have you got any sort of practical advice or tips you'd give to business owners, especially in this current climate right now?

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Look, I I I love a good model because I like things that are easy to remember. So I'm gonna share with you three R's. The first one is all about research. To me, you have to do your homework. So you've got to understand. So if you're if you're working here and you want to be there, you've got to think about well, what's happening over there? Who's there? Who are the competitors? Who's buying? Is it the same target audience? What will it take to scaffold to grow? You know, what do I gonna need from a resources? What's my business model look like? So you've got to do your background research. You've also got to run the numbers to see what is the likelihood of if you're scaffolding and scaling. So research is the first star. The second one, I believe, in in all businesses, it's about relationships. Relationships are key. People and organizations, they buy relationships. It doesn't matter if it's the big Woolworths of the world versus the little father and son or you know, family business down the road. Everything is about relationships. And so I always think it's who do you know in particular spaces? If you're wanting to diversify or do something, you know, have you caught up everybody you know? Have you had conversations? Do you know anybody that's tried to do something that you're you're aiming to do? Who's in? Like even talking to who you think might be potential competitors, who might be potential people that are going to buy from you, and really just sussing out and trying to formulate relationships. That's one thing as a side thing in relation to what I notice a lot about Indigenous businesses is that we're so relational. Everything we do is about relationships.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah, and I think like that is a superpower that we often underestimate is that we have social and community cachet, you know, what we lack maybe in some funds, we bring with having access to these giant networks. So I love that you've emphasized that. So we've got research, relationships, and the last one is to respond.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

And you know, that is to respond appropriately. It's to take the risk, it's to do what is necessary, make it happen, it's to get the resources, it's to just go trust your gut instinct around it. And so, because quite often we can get to a point where we might tackle the first two R's and then we get scared, or we're not really ready to take that leap of faith. You know, I was talking to a friend just a week ago who was saying, Oh, you know, but I've I'm the primary income earner in my household. And if I, you know, take this leap of faith to go into business, it's gonna put more pressure on my partner, it's gonna put more pressure on my family. And I'm like, yeah, but what's the risk? You know, I can see how what you're doing now is affecting you. What's the risk if you you go? Like, are you backing yourself? And so I think from a response point of view, it's about actually going, I trust myself, I believe in myself, I back myself, I'm prepared to take the risk. And yeah, it might pay off. Yeah, it might not, but it will get you somewhere further than where you are right now, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:51

And that's the beautiful slash scary thing about it is just having the courage to take action in your life just for the sake of blowing your own mind and be like, far out, I did that thing. Even if it doesn't produce the intended outcome, what you learn about yourself during those scary AF moments where you're like at that crossroads is really where the magic and the shit happens, really, doesn't it? And it's also unlearning, like the conditioning around like the security that comes with a nine to five, uh, I know and I see a lot is that you know, people might be very happy to hum along at a nine to five miserable, live for the weekends, just you know, just kind of exist during the week. And because it at the end of the day, there's security of a paycheck. But if you're not happy and you're feeling stuck and undervalued and overworked, and the pros and the cons in starting your own business is you do get that flexibility. You do get to choose a workplace that suits your needs. And I think it's inherently a good thing to think about on the other side of that fear is a payoff. It just might look different.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

That's it. There's trade-offs and sacrifices with everything, right? Like I think feel like I've done a lot of the hard yards to now, you know, in my third year out on my own, be able to kind of breathe a little bit more, if that makes sense. That's the the trade-off, the sacrifice I made at the early end of working my guts out to now being able to go, and actually I can create space. And, you know, even coming over here to Ul Ted Oa, you know, people are like, how are you gonna run your business? And I go, what did we do in COVID? Yeah, we were online, bro. So it's gonna work out. And if anyone wants me in Australia, guess what? They can pay me to come home. And guess what? They already have, you know. So I came back last week for a day, in and out in one day. That's the reality, is I value myself and I know those that I work with value me as well. And so if they want the value of creative. Still in the room, they're gonna pay for it, they're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

You are a wealth of knowledge and a beacon of optimism, and I think it's really nice to have just no bullshit approach to some of this stuff. And yeah, I'm wondering with your podcast, Meet the Mob, where you talk to indigenous business owners about you know what drives them, what they're doing, is that a place where people can come and listen to more of these tips and tricks that you're that you're sharing today? Like, yeah, can you talk a little bit about the show and what people can expect in getting more of this and more of you? Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Yeah, you know, Meet the Mob was something like it's a passion project. It started as a big passion project, and it started off the back I'd been engaged a couple of years ago when there was a buy black campaign, and I'm not an I'm not an influencer on on social media, but I was engaged to to create some content and I did, and I loved it. And I was like, hey, this is really cool to be amplifying um in Indigenous businesses, and because I'm an I've been an avid shopper and I have like too many clothes of black businesses, right? Anyway, so I was like, how do I channel using you know social media and different types of medium, you know, to kind of get out there? And I actually wanted to start a podcast, and then at the same time, when I was kind of putting together an idea, Mandanara Bales launched her Black Magic Woman podcast, and I went, ooh, I don't want to compete with Sister Girl. And so I initially started on YouTube because I thought that would be a really great point of difference. I actually watch a lot of YouTube. I love YouTube because I'm a really visual person, and so that's where it started. I I wanted to elevate and amplify black business voices. I wanted to showcase success stories and say, hey, guess what? There is some deadly black fellas out there, and they're running all these types of businesses. But also for them to share and me to help elicit some of their stories, but also their tips and tricks. And so then the YouTube channel just came about really organically in trial and error, and it's you know grown now into having that ability to get signed by Blackcast Network and be reproduced into a podcast series, which I'm just I was so stoked that that that could happen because it's been um a project that I've, you know, and you're probably the same, sis. Our passion projects, we self-fund these. It's our own time and money that we invest in these things because we care and we want to. And, you know, yeah, so it's just so great to see where it's going now.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

And I think it comes back to that relationships point that you said is that we don't we seldom do anything in isolation as black fellas. We're always thinking about okay, if I've got this platform, how can I share it? How can I elevate it? How do we share more of these beautiful yarns and stories? And so, yeah, it's lovely to hear that, yeah, you're doing it your way, you're you're doing your thing, you're sharing these beautiful inspirational stories about black businesses and just like normalizing these yarns because there are a lot of people and like me and you, and who've who have kind of been exposed to working in organizations and then stepping into your own business where that information didn't even exist, you know, not even a decade ago, where we could find easy to understand information from other business owners who are doing doing the damn thing. So yeah, that's that's amazing. I'm gonna pop meet the mob in our show notes and encourage you all to go over and have a listen because as you can tell, um, you could sit and listen to you all day, my sis. You're a wealth of knowledge, and thank you so much for being here and yeah, sharing your your wisdom and the labour and love that you provide for communities. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Oh, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, it's so good to see you, and I can't wait till we get together uh face to face. I don't know when that's gonna happen, but maybe soon.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah, next time you're in um NAM or Melbourne and you're here for work, hit a sister up.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

I will, totally. Don't you worry about that.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Thank you so much for listening, you mob. If you are vibing this season of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecal.com.au