Dr Carissa Lee - Using performance art and academia to facilitate safe spaces for Aboriginal storytellers

In this episode, Caroline is joined by Dr Carissa Lee, a Noongar actor and writer born on Wemba-Wemba country with a PhD in Indigenous theatre from The University of Melbourne. An actor who has featured in film, television, and voiceover work, as well as performing with major theatre companies, Carissa is a talented creative force. Paired with her impressive achievements in academia and position at Swinburne University of Technology, she is making waves in Australia’s performing arts industry. 

In this episode, Caroline and Carissa yarn about her journey into the industry, starting in a small town doing highschool Shakesphere productions to working for some of Australia’s biggest theatre groups. She talks about the works that have inspired her as an actor and writer, and some of the favourite projects she’s been a part of in her career so far - and the exciting work she’s been doing on her new ABC  show Planet Lulin featuring as Principle Cruz. 

Carissa and Caroline celebrate seeing more Aboriginal people on our screens, and the importance of seeking continuous improvement in representation and diversity in TV and film . You’ll also learn more about the amazing work Carissa has  been doing with her PhD, and how she wants to use her knowledge and experience to help protect Aboriginal people and their culture  by facilitating safe and ethical spaces to share stories. 

To follow Carrisa Lee visit her Instagram page here, to watch her as feature as Principle Cruz here. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show! 

Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here! 

We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.

This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio. Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Black Waddle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cal. We acknowledge the Rurundari people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today. It always was and always will be unseated Aboriginal and Taurus Red Islander land. Well, I am so excited about sitting down with my next guest, Carissa Lee. Carissa is doing incredible things in the arts. Performer, an actor, a writer, someone with their hands in many pies, and I'm excited to unpack them all and unravel them all in today's conversation. So thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Well, thank you so much for having me, Sus. It's really wonderful, and I'm such a fan of the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Oh, thank you. I was thinking about where we first met, actually. We've had the pleasure of meeting before. I don't know if you remember this, but when we did the work in the schools, we went into some primary schools.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Part of the Deadly Questions campaign, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

That's right. That was such a great day, wasn't it? I was a last minute ring-in to come with some black talent, and I was like, yeah, I can come along. And we got there and we got to talk about our stories and our experiences and what a treaty is and what it isn't for young people in primary schools. And it was just such a deadly experience, hey. It was really cute. It's it's always nice to sort of, you know, distinguish where we've all met because we've got such a small community. I think that's a thing people don't realise. So yeah, it's nice to sort of see full circle and what you've gone on to accomplish since that was maybe five years ago. I'm so excited to unpack your journey since that that time at the schools. But as we always do on this show, we like to start by getting to know you, and we'd love to know, yeah, who's your mob and a little bit about yeah, where you grew up and and your family.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

I'm a Nungar woman, and um my brother and I were born on Wemberwember Country in Swanhill. And yeah, we grew up there sort of by the river and mucking around and loving life, and then we eventually moved to Mount Gambia in South Australia, Bowen Dick Country. And we lived there for quite a while, and my family still lived there. I moved from there to go to Adelaide to go to uni. I mean, I was gonna go do psychology, I don't know why. Um, but then I ended up auditioning for Flinders Drama Centre on a whim, and because my drama teacher at high school had mentioned the place because he graduated from there. And I auditioned and got in and went there for four years, stayed in Adelaide for a bit, and then moved over here to try and get a bit more work and to do a PhD and yeah, just see what happens. I love Melbourne so much.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Wow, that is such an interesting journey from Swanhill to Mount Gambia to falling into acting, which is now, you know, a a part of your career. I know that you're such a multifaceted person. So acting and creative performance wasn't always in your crystal ball. It wasn't something that you were interested in as a young person.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

I didn't think it was actually possible because living in a small town, your options are quite limited. So I thought maybe if I do some kind of like psychology course through like correspondence, then it might be more possible for me to have a career and stay home and that kind of stuff. But yeah, in the end I had to kind of get out of there. Because you know when you just know that you're done with a place and in order to grow you need to leave. And I think that was one of those things. As a kid, I I loved writing more than anything else. I really loved writing and then got into the acting stuff. But yeah, I I seem to find a way to balance both, which I think is really nice. It sort of exercises different parts of my brain, which I really love.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

And so if you were to think back in high school, did you do any theatre or any performance?

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah, well, I was initially at what I think they're called like area schools where they're sort of preps to year 12, and I was there for a bit and we did sort of like dance stuff, and I did gymnastics as well, so that was kind of like that performance aspect a little bit as well. And then I ended up getting kicked out of that school because I was a rat bag, and then I went to another school, Mount Gambia High School, and that was where I met my drummer teacher, John Crouch, and he just kind of threw me into all the theatre things and was like, Okay, you need to do this class, you need to do this class, and I did as much theatre as I could. I became one of the theatre nerds, it was really awesome, and made the most amazing friends who I'm still friends with now. And yeah, we did lots of Shakespeare. That school was very heavy on the Shakespeare, which kind of contributed to my already existing obsession with Shakespeare. And we did musicals and that kind of stuff as well, which I mean wasn't the best for me because I'm not the best singer, but they kind of made you do it anyway, to sort of get a sense of you know what it's like as well. And so, yeah, that was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Oh, there's nothing more um transformative in terms of your confidence and and building a community than yeah, having a go at arts at school, I think. I was really bad at maths, like just terrible. I just kept telling myself I wasn't good at it. And I remember I joined into like drama class because I thought it'll be a great way to do any maths. And they said, Well, that's great. If you're here, you're you've got to perform in the production. And I was like, Well, I wasn't prepared for that. We did a very tragic production called Back to the 80s, but I'll I'll never forget it. So I thought, well, bugger it, if I'm gonna give this a go, I am gonna like try out for one of the roles. And there were two main roles. There was the nice sweet girl, and then there was the rat bag mean girl. And I got the mean girl. And oh, it was just it was just tragic. But I just remember those formative years. Any tragic or you know, trashy shows that you've been involved in that are worthy of noting?

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Sadly, probably more so as an adult than in high school. At high school, we did this amazing production of Twelfth Night where I was playing the jester, like this kind of clown-like character that creates a lot of trouble for everyone. And it I was like dressed up all gothic and had black and white stockings and was a real punk, and that was really, really fun. And but we've got it on DVD at my mum's house, and it's not great, it's not good at all. But um it was a lot of fun, it had a lot of really weird elements, like there were a lot of you know, dick jokes and sex jokes and stuff sort of interwoven into the way it was staged and that kind of stuff. So that was it's like, oh, I don't know about that. There's some of it was a little bit cringe.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

It's so tragic and wholesome in such a good way, isn't it? And having this sort of time capsule of that is pretty cool. Also, too, what I want to ask is, you know, what I think back to those moments when we're young people and we're just full of confidence, you know. There's really nothing that can deter us from expressing ourselves and getting up on stage. And I've even said it on another podcast with Kimmy Lovegrove, who's a comedian, just you know, getting up and performing in assemblies and and so on. And it sort of feels like as you get into your adult life, that confidence starts to subside, become a bit more self-conscious. And so, with that, you know, what do you do to get in a mindset of confidence and being ready to like share and and do your acting and performing? Is there a process that you undertake?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

I've got like a hype up playlist that kind of gets me into character or even just in general, like I have a playlist that I kind of listen to to get me just hyped up and ready to go. And a lot of the time, once I can kind of hear an audience, I'm like, yeah, we've got people, this is awesome. And you kind of feed off that energy, which is really nice. But yeah, like on set or something, it's a similar thing. Like I'll usually just listen to music and try and just get into the sense of uh I think with Planet Lulin, it was easy because the kids just have so much energy all day and they want to play and they want to be silly and it's like yes, let's do that. And you kind of feed off that energy as well, which was really amazing. And I think that is, as you say, like as we get older, we kind of lose that a little bit. Remember, oh, ages ago when I was still living in Adelaide, I did a clowning workshop for some year twelves for a friend of mine who was a teacher that because they wanted to do this clowning workshop for these kids that were like 17 because they were starting to get in that thing where you get in your head too much. That because they were meant to be in a production where they were playing young kids and they're meant to be like, ah, you know, silly and whatever. But they were struggling, the teachers were really struggling to get these students to get out of their heads and to try and play and be silly because they were being all shame about it. So we did like a clowning workshop for them to try and get used to just being silly and rediscovering what it's like to be a kid and and you know just sort of jump around and that kind of thing. And I do think we lose that a little bit. And I I find myself sometimes, you know, I guess also with the analytical stuff, I get in my head anyway because I'm an overthinker and academia, I think, supports that a little bit. And it's hard to kind of get out of that mode when you're acting as well. So sometimes you just have to let go and listen to a good song or something and just jump around and get hyped up and just play and see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, it's it's like, yeah, you're right. It's something about that losing of inhibitions and being playful and silly and impulsive and and going with it that I imagine in an adult life, yeah, it becomes a practice, like something you have to sort of return back to. Feel like, you know, we're living in a society where we don't prioritize the arts in terms of you know, a sector. And you know, I went to a gig recently, and you can feel how joyful and the ceremony and the connectedness that comes when you're experiencing art. And yeah, I think um as a society we need to do more to encourage us to get creative. Has there been any artist or any shows or any yeah, any pieces of art that have really sort of left this lasting impact on you and your journey into your arts?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

I mean, even last night I went and saw the went to the opening of 37 at MTC and oh, like seeing this beautiful interweaving of themes like racism, camaraderie, toxic masculinity, this kind of idea of being in a pocket that's a like a white town that's very small, and you being kind of the only First Nations people there, it was it r it resonated so much with me because that was kind of how my brother and I were growing up a lot of the time. It but just seeing that show and how they had dance and beautiful tableaus and use of different movement elements all through it, as well as just amazing, funny dialogue, but then they really punch you in the guts with the point. It just it was so good. Like I I can't stop thinking about it. I think I'm gonna go see it again. Shows like that and Barbara and the Camp Dogs with um Ersty Iovich, that just was amazing. This beautiful kind of pub rock musical, but it kind of talks about how you turn your back on responsibility for family, but you're trying to also look after yourself, but then you're trying to not be toxic to yourself. And I think shows like that where they really show the humanity and the kind of imperfection of the lead character, I think are really important because yeah, when you see shows and it's just like ah, this this is the hero, and they do this and they're great, it's it's not really realistic. You kind of need someone who has the faults and the struggles and the ways they're just trying to get through life, as well as the bigger picture, which is whatever's going on in the play. Those kind of shows have definitely been really impactful, and and seeing something like The Drover's Wife with Leah Passell, that was just oh it's so good. Like, oh my god. The fact that she turned something that was just like a a tiny character in a poem and made it into something as big as it was. That kind of work is really inspiring too because she got what is a you know post-colonial story and then turned it into something for her that was black, that was something that was a much more important story and had so much commentary, not just on what that time might have been like for a black woman, but also how mob were were being treated and how black women were being treated, and then how white feminism was coexisting alongside that or it wasn't, and how children are viewed based on the colour of their skin back then. It was just, oh, it was just so good. Yeah, it was just really amazing.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Oh my gosh, I I couldn't agree with you more. And these sounds like really great recommendations that um will definitely pop in the show notes should you know people be able to get there or they come again. But it it's so interesting where we're at at the moment, I think, around you know, like the works of say Leah Purcell and yourself and just black art and artistry and how it's done, it is so powerful. I feel like there has been an explosion of black art that has gone onto mainstream recently. Like I thought Deadlock was incredible. I'm not sure if you've seen that, but the way they did mob and we weren't just the sort of token blackness ticker boxes, but they did them in the funny national ways. We got to see like the Arnie and saw like the two little titters and like got to see the mob how we see them. I thought, yeah, Leah Purcells of the Drover's Wife was just so powerful. I don't know if you've seen Lost Flowers of the Alice Heart, but that is stunning. Like the imagery of country and getting to see all these beautiful shots and you know, to have our knowledge systems around the cool burning and seeing Mob there was great. I thought even the Boy Swallow's universe, how they had Briggsy in there as the sort of hero. And you're right around that notion that you're saying about falling in love with the flaws of the main character, because you get to see them more fickle and fragile and not that sort of like protagonist or hero sort of. You get to see them being soft and yeah, clumsy and yeah, in all of their layers. So yeah, but yeah, you're right. There has been um a lot of beautiful black artistry recently, and they sound like yeah, incredible pieces. Flipping to you and some of your works, I'd love to sort of yeah, unpack. You've done a huge amount of things, and I'd love to sort of, yeah, explore some of your projects and some of the pieces of writing or some of the creative performing and acting that has been, yeah, the most special for you.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I think because some of the projects I've been a part of, you know, have been, you know, created by friends, which is really wonderful as well. Planet Luneland is definitely a huge one for me just because it was like the biggest thing I've done. And it's just it brings so much joy. And uh getting to play a character that's just funny and doesn't have to do tragic stuff is kind of nice for a change. I mean, it's nice to have a mix, but something like this, I'd never done anything like this before. This was really, really cool. And I do think doing work with Sammy J and that kind of comedic side of things was a huge part of that, is that it kind of put me out there a little bit, which was really nice. And I discovered that I really like comedy. I actually like being a massive dork, and it's just kind of what I do naturally, I think. But yeah, like getting to do shows, like there was this really amazing production of Holy Day that I did. Uh like I've done Holy Day a couple of times, and I just love that play so much. It's written by Andrew Bavell, who's a non-Indigenous man, but he wrote it under the supervision and guidance of Ghana Elders in Adelaide. I really loved that play because it has this sense of like you see all these awful things happen, but at the end there's a moment where basically the main character kind of points to the audience and like, you did this, like you white fellas did this to us, and this is our history, and you have to own this because you don't get to just come to the theatre and sit and watch a bunch of black fellas die on stage, and that's your black theatre for the night. No, you get to sit and watch this and witness what you did, and it's so rough, like the way that the imagery in it, it's really because I don't want to do spoilers because no doubt it'll get staged again, but yeah, it's really, really good and it's brutal, and it doesn't pull its punches and it just says, You have to watch this, you have to bear witness.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Which is good because So the the holy day is a theatre performance. It's interesting, because I was just having a quick look. Yeah, it looks like a really chilling kind of mystery, and so it's interesting to hear that audience engagement and because you know, in order to change or evoke a sense of action, people do need to feel somewhat uncomfortable. But yeah, how do you ravel them up so they can, you know, go out and be courageous and take some action? So that's that's really interesting. We'll be back, you mob, right after this short break. I'm really keen to pick up on your what you're talking about at Planet Lulin, which is you know ABC's new kids' comedy, and you're you're playing the role of um Principal Cruz, I understand. So can you talk to me about Principal Cruz and the role and just a bit about more about the show? Because it sounds like, as you mentioned, it's so nice to see Blackfellas do things for joy and for laughter, and for our young Jar Jams as well, like to see other sisters on screen is just so important. So, yeah, keen to hear more about that particular project, if I may.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Looking at a young girl who she's kind of part alien, part human, and she's starting to, I guess, as she's getting older, she's hitting that age where you know puberty would usually hit, and with that, she's realizing she has special kind of abilities because she's an alien, and so it's causing a bit of drama for her, trying to get through school and also you know deal with that. And she's got two amazing little friends who help her get through that. And my character, Principal Cruz, is their teacher and sort of in the background, and I don't know, I kind of interact with the kids and pop in and laugh, and the kids really love my character, which is so wonderful because you get to just play and it's really, really just so much joy in it. And yeah, I think Principal Cruz is a bit of a dork, and she thinks she's pretty funny. I've made a really dorky playlist for her with lots of 90s hip-hop and the Spice Girls and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Hey, that sounds like my regular playlist. Also, it's good music.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

And so she's kind of yeah, just a really she's kind of like a big kid herself, I think, and that's why the kids love her so much. There's another teacher played by Zachary Ruin. He is kind of trying to be friends with the kids, but I think the kids pick up on that, and so they're just kind of like, nah. And he's a big stress head too, which doesn't help, but he was really wonderful to bounce off of, he's really funny. And um, yeah, it was just a really amazing show, and oh, just the detail that goes into a lot of the props on set just blew my mind because they've got like a a puppet dragon and they've got like a spaceship, and it's oh, it's just very cool.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

It was really wonderful. So it's kind of like a futuristic sort of set.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

It's definitely set in the present time, but yeah, it does have that kind of the alien aspect, I think, is a bit futuristic with like the spaceship, and you meet like this tiny alien played by Cassie Robb who's just insanely good. She's just this tiny little thing that steals the show, but she has like this cool outfit, and it's oh, it's really, really awesome. Mmm, amazing. And where can people catch this? Where is it airing now? See iView, all 10 episodes, and it's been recently put up on YouTube as well. Oh, amazing. It's really nice because it kind of has the same vibe as like I don't know, like the ferals with the puppets and with like Round the Twist with their kind of weird stories that they have, and I think it's really nice to have that kind of style back. It it kind of makes me think of what it was like growing up as a kid in the 90s with these really weird, kind of playful stories.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Oh, well, that's exciting. I mean, you you mentioned at the start of our conversation that you write and you're also doing your PhD. I've got to ask, you know, how do you balance all of the roles and how do you what's your sort of practice or person or things that light you up outside of your deadly playlist? Like how do you keep up with all of those many roles?

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Plus off to do because, you know, the way industries have been sort of structured, mob have to often wear many hats, I think. We have to become quite skilled in different ways. Finished my PhD last year and I began an academic role at Swimburn this year, which I'm, you know, doing as well as the acting stuff. And it's kind of an easy juggle. I think I'm used to doing more than one thing at a time, and if I need to take time off to sort of focus on a a bigger project or something like that, I generally just do that and make sure that I'm sort of quarantining time just for that. I think it's really important, and that's something that I've had to learn to do because I have in the past tried to juggle too much and get exhausted and it doesn't really work, and it also you kind of only half. Ass everything if you don't concentrate on one thing at a time. Sometimes you just need to, and I yeah, a lot of the time I have to actually just be strict and say, okay, I need to put that over there for now and go over here and focus on this. But I think prioritizing stuff that makes me happy as well has been something that I've really started doing a lot more of this year, which is including things like seeing my friends and trying to get out in nature and I need to see my family more and making sure you're taking time for you and for rest. One of my friends, SJ, she does this amazing yoga class online because she's she's actually like overseas and she does these really beautiful yin yoga classes, but she does like visualizations and kind of helps you because you know when your mind wanders when you're in the middle of poses and that kind of stuff, she kind of helps you be okay with that, but then just kind of let that stuff go so you can come back, which I think is really good practice just for life. Because sometimes if you're in the middle of something, you might be thinking about the next thing you need to do, or you might be thinking about something else. So instead of being hard on yourself about it, you just kind of go, Okay, yeah, you you can have your moment, but then I've got to let you go and focus on what I'm doing, or even just to rest. And it's that's been something that has been very helpful and really important.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Such beautiful tips, and I guess what I'm sort of hearing is yeah, the importance of boundaries and sort of being more targeted with your time and like you say, compartmentalizing things like we can do it all, but just not all at the same time. Sometimes it's that simple, isn't it? And I think that that the mind-body connection and doing yoga and visualizations and just having an ability to surrender and learning to let go is a beautiful practice which I think we could all possibly benefit from by the sounds of it. It's always good to know what people are doing because I guess we see like the successes of things, but behind the scenes, as you mentioned, like as black fullers in an anti-black world, we do have to work double as hard with less of the resources, less of the support. And sometimes in unsafe industries, sometimes where there's not a lot of black fellas, like, yeah, it can be tricky. So finding ways to really nurture ourselves and rest and say no where we can is so, so important. So thank you for sharing that. I want to ask you about that question too, about the industry and thinking about, you know, as I mentioned, there is an explosion of black art. And we've we're all all artists and storytellers and dancers and performers and in our own right, in our own way, whether we do that culturally on stage or whether we do it for community, you know, we're all sort of creative beings as black fellas, hey.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

And that was part of my research as well, was looking at how you know corrobory was, you know, at the beginning a main source of, you know, storytelling, and that's how we kind of come together and and celebrate and also mourn and also you know find ways to communicate. And I think performance is something that is very embedded in mob anyway, like those yarns that happen or that those dances that happen, that kind of performativity I think is very much in us.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, it's it is really like I mean it'd be so interesting to I could unpack your PhD all day by the sounds of it. But yeah, like you say, I mean, this kind of coming together to exchange uh an expression, a feeling. Um, and you know, that that's the thing I think for like um non-Aboriginal people who are listening, when we look at ancestrally in ancient times, you know, the theology, so the way of social order and governance, most things were commemorated through song or dance, whether that it's a birth, a death, a celebration, a gathering, just of coming together for just joy. Like we actually had ways of coming together, not for tribal reasons, just for pure joy and connectivity. So yeah, it really is ingrained in all of us, which is kind of you know, it's not surprising. We see a lot of um performers, and I think it's growing. It's definitely growing. I still think that there is a long way to go where we see like the one percenters, you know, like the like the Jessica Mowboys or the people who like I feel like there is probably a long way to go where we see more of people at that calibre in influence in Australia. I feel like we've got so much deadly black talent that could be there up there. I want to ask you about the industry, you know, what you know, you've been working in this space for a while. I mean, what how do you see the future of this creative field evolving? And, you know, can more be done to make sure that mob um get pathways into the arts and get supported when they're in there and have mentoring and and guidance so they don't navigate all this in isolation? Like what are your thoughts on all of that?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Uh the diversity kind of situation in the performing arts industry is definitely improving. It's when I started my PhD, it wasn't that great. And now, as we look at it now, we're seeing mob everywhere, which is really amazing. And you know, people of colour, queer folks, we're seeing more disabled actors in film and TV and theatre and that kind of stuff. I do think that needs to be improved even more. I think disabled representation is still lagging. I think that's been one of the more recent ones, I think, that they need to sort of get their shit together with. But yeah, I think, yeah, I do think it's just gonna keep getting better. Whenever people are like, oh, how do you think about representation now? I'm like, there can always be more. It shouldn't be token characters that are there because of their ethnicity or whatever. It's or they're kind of there to serve as a function for a white story. It's nice seeing stories like Leah's in that Lost Flowers of Alice Hart. That was just beautiful. She was a standalone character who had her own journey as well as existing with her partner, and it was just so beautiful and so important. And I'm really loving seeing queer stories just not being like, it's like, oh my god, this is our lesbian. It's like, no, they're just in love, and it's just part of the story, you know. It's not they're not going, hey, look at what we're doing. We're trying to do representation, it's just people who are being people and living in the world, and it's it's just really nice to see that that's definitely improving in the industry. I think it's really making a difference because you know, as we were young ones, we weren't represented that well on TV. Like in Australia, we had maybe like in the early 2000s, we had Deb Mailman, who was just our hero, but that's a lot of burden to carry because she was the only one.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

But and maybe Ernie Dingo, I remember, you know, in the great outdoors. And when I was thinking about this in a few episodes we were talking about it, I think it might have been gosh, I'm going to the memory, right? Maybe season one, I was talking to Bianca Hunt about this, and we were thinking who there was. And we were, yeah, it was Ernie Dingo, Deborah Maulman, and I remember the year that Samantha Harris won the Dolly model search, and she was on the first magazine because when you're in the naughs for all of our little young listeners, we used to have to go down to the news agency and buy$5 singles and like$3 magazines. They were the ways that we would consume our information, not like on Facebook or TikTok. And I used to go down like once a week with a little bit of pocket money or whatever we could scrounge around or whatever I'd get working at the pizza shop. And yeah, we I remember the day of going in and seeing her on the front magazine and just being like totally blown away, thinking, wow, there's someone out there in the world that looks like my mum or my aunties or my sister, or you know, and it's just how important that representation is. And so it's it's good to hear that it is growing. I mean, as you say, all industries could improve, but it's great to see that it is is definitely growing. And you're right that it's done in ways that make sense for where we are now. It's not done that we're just, you know, painted as the deficit or the other. We've got our own storylines and with depth and dimension, and and it's done in in ways that feel right for us.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Because people like Bianca are kind of working behind the scenes and trying to make sure mob are being put forward for stuff and people are writing and making sure that diverse stories are being put out there, which is really, really good. Like I think there is more of an effort to make sure diverse writers and and diverse kind of consultants are being involved in these processes, so stuff's being done right and it's being done in a way that is quite safe. So I think that's part of it too. Like a lot of people behind the scenes are doing really important work to make sure stuff's self-determined, and I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

I think that's the key, like what you're saying around this notion of not just playing the character but writing the story. You know, I think from memory with deadlock, there were two queer women, and they both, as I understand, like r worked with community, like built the relations. It took obviously it blows out production budgets and things, but that came through the story that the depth of the character was there. What do you think it would take to imagine a world or a time where there is an all black production from writers to runners to actors to makeup? Is that where we can imagine and aspire to be one day?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Like in some remote communities, because I've been hearing there are little like media projects going on in communities, so I wouldn't be surprised if stuff like that's already happening. But I mean, I think it would need to be funded by government because if mob had to take it out of their own pocket, that would be a bit annoying. But I think, oh, that would be amazing. Could you imagine? That'd be the funnest set to be on.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

That would be just Yeah, you could imagine the quality of the art and the performance that would come through.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

The productions like Ilbidgery do a really good job. I mean, obviously they sometimes have to go to bigger like venues and that kind of stuff, or they might have to have the odd producer or whatever, but for the most part, it's it's mostly mob. And even just having that kind of dynamic working with just mob, it's so nice because you don't feel like there's any judgment, you don't feel like you have to explain things or code change. Like, you know, when you sometimes do have to do that kind of, oh no, I meant this, and it's nice not having to do that. I think being in an environment with just mob is it's so good. It feels like you can breathe.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

I mean, it's even similar in our line of work where we bring titters together to yarn, and when they're with a black woman or a black healer or a black mentor, the richness of the conversation or the like the deadliness of what comes through because they're safe. So it would it it would be really interesting. What's in the pipeline for you now that you're you're done with principal crews and planet Lulin? Any future projects that you can talk about in 2024? And where's your vision for your PhD now that it's done? Are you getting that out there and talking about it? On what's happening with Planet Luland?

SPEAKER_01 32:56

We'll see what goes on there. I've got a show coming up in I think it's June or July, I'm not sure. I'd need to check that. We're doing a remount of the show Inside Out that we did last year, and I am potentially doing another theatre thing. I'm just waiting to hear back. I think they're waiting on funding or a cultural consulting stage. I'm not sure, but yeah, I'm just waiting to hear back on that one. And yeah, I do like regular voiceover stuff, so I end up doing a lot of that. With my PhD, I'm making it into a book, which is interesting. And editing your own work is a bit in oh, it's a bit soul crushing because it's like, oh, what did I write before?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

It's just yeah, and just you would feel attached to every single word on that bloody page, I imagine, after finessing it for what, four years?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

I've actually, it's been kind of the opposite because there are moments where I'm like, no, that sucks. I'm cutting all of that, and then I have to actually go like check with someone who's like, Am I being too harsh in cutting this? Because I feel like I'm cutting a lot.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

I think that's a hard task to do yourself, to be honest. Like the emotional com components, but also like, yeah, maybe being too overly critical and being willing to let go. Maybe you need a bit of a brain's trust.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

But because I've done the editing stuff, I also want to make sure that there aren't any gaps because I want to have a look and update it and make sure that stuff's current and making sure that I haven't missed anything and maybe give it a bit of a once-over before I give it to an editor for them to deal with, because I just want to make sure it's reading. Uh I've yeah, I've had a couple of friends who are like, Yeah, let me read your thesis, and I've sent it to them. And as I've been going through and editing it, I'm like, Oh wow, this sucks. I really hope they didn't like read the whole thing because this is terrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Well, that's exciting. I mean, the expenditure on the soul and the spirit to create a and develop your thesis and do your PhD and and then to sort of have that done and then not turn it into something, I would imagine you want it out in the world. And so how great to turn it into a book and and nice to sort of take all of your fusions of your passions with, you know, the academia and the writing and now, you know, getting that out to the world.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Interview with such amazing people, like I don't I didn't want to go to waste because I got to yarn with the most amazing people working in the industry and I want their words out there and their wisdom out there because they taught they taught me so much, and I want to make sure that knowledge is available to other people who might be wanting to do that kind of collaboration. Yeah, just yarning up with mob like that and having that kind of knowledge is just such a privilege. I want to make sure that it's not wasted just on me. I want everyone to read it.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

And what can people expect from your PhD? You mentioned before around the power of corrobory and you know, now hearing that you've had some yarns and conversations, which I imagine would just really sort of anchor something like this into real life or for us anyway. But yeah, what can people expect when going through your PhD?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

It just looks at the history of First Nations collaboration with non-Indigenous people in the performing arts. Sort of do a bit of a brief history from corroborey through to establishing black theatre companies to mob being represented in non-Indigenous productions and then sort of where we're at and how protocols have been written to make sure people are safe, and also looking at case studies of other productions that have happened and how it worked and how it didn't.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

That's so fascinating because even as I understand with black theatre in so-called Australia, like you know, Redfern, which was like kind of the Redfern theatre company, which you know, Gary, Uncle Gary Foley was really instrumental in. And even my uncle, I'm sure you'd know him, my uncle PJ Roses, he's one of the founders of Irbiddy. I can never say it's Irbiti.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Some words I'm just like, oh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

I always get shamed of. So I just go, Yeah, like these places were set up as epicentres, and there's like a political backdrops of these places. They they were to have sort of like any civil rights movements need places for art and expression and creativity, and it would sort of be the political backdrops of the theatre and the juxtapose between arts and justice and and all of that. So that would be so fascinating for for people to sort of understand in your PhD about how these industries sort of trans-muted one another and and worked together. That sounds really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

I can make it sound less academic and more like as interesting as it is, because we have such a huge history of black theatre and and black performance that has been very politically minded. And I think it's just such a really effective way of getting stories across. And honestly, I mean, I hate to bring it up, but like post-referendum, I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of art comes out from this because we, you know, we've been through the ringer, like a lot of pain and a lot of division with mob about points of view, but I think it would be really good to see what kind of stories and art and everything comes out from it to sort of stick it to the rest of the country because it's definitely needed. I feel like these moments do bring about really great stories and great art at least. It's it's a tiny silver lining in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah, it's so fascinating to think about that when you really delve deep into it, when you think about these waves of oppression or these waves of like collective or global consciousness changing and the art or the feelings that are felt and then the art that's produced. We're gonna see a big resurgence of more political black music in some way. Yeah, it's so fascinating. We'll put all of your PhD and the work that's coming up moving forward for you in our show notes. I wanted to also ask about Inside Out. So you mentioned you'll be starring in that in later in the year. What can people expect coming in, yeah, watching you in Inside Out?

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Last year as part of the Year and Boy Festival, it's written by Muriel Spiram. Oh, Deadly. Love Muriel, shout out Muriel. Talented, like she just turns out scripts like nobody's business. I was like, how do you write like that? You're amazing. Just such a talented person, and I always love working with her. And Monica Caro as well is just beautiful. This beautiful group. It's nice to work with them and it's a comedy and it's a bit weird, and I think it's good. It's it's like uh just trying to think of how to describe it. It's kind of got 70s vibes because it's got like that whole shaft kind of vibe, you know, it's like that detective, yeah, Foxy Brown kind of thing. But at the same time, it's really sci-fi. So yeah, and it's a comedy, it's very, very funny and it's really cool. Mounted in sometime this year, and that'll be really, really fun and yeah, obscene, which is great.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah, and it's nice to sort of hear that you get to come back to a role or a character or a some, you know, a place where you've already just grow and build and evolve on that. So that's that's that's really nice to see.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Excuse to hang out with with them too. It just makes me happy.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Oh yeah. What a barrel of laughs, I can imagine. Wow, well, it sounds like there's some great things in the pipeline, and we're so excited to see where where you evolve. I guess my final question for you is, and this might be a tricky one, but you know, in thinking about all the work you're doing in in writing with your PhD, creative performing, working at Swinburne and acting, what do you hope that people take away from the work that you're doing? But what do you want to invoke a sense of, or what do you want people to feel, or what do you want people to think when they're engaging with this work? And it's gonna be hard because you've got so many different tentacles, but yeah, what are your thoughts? Of them as tentacles because I really like octopuses.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

And so I I kind of like to see myself as someone that facilitates space for people who have that cultural knowledge. I'm able to kind of go, okay, you know stuff, you help with this and and you know, you be amazing and I will help you with whatever you need. And like I I'm kind of like the middleman with that a lot of the time. And I think I like to sort of see myself as someone who facilitates people with cultural knowledge and be able to help them with whatever they want to do or help people try to make sure stories are being told ethically, like in the academic like academic space, that cultural safety stuff is something that I'm really, really keen on and making sure that mob are safe and making sure that stories are being told proper way or they're not being told at all, if that is the wish of those cultural knowledge holders, like making sure that mob are being looked after and they're okay. That's kind of what I like to do, especially in the context of like the performing arts and and stories and how we go about these things. Because I don't necessarily have cultural authority on things, I want to protect or facilitate and help people that do. And that's kind of I think I'm a good kind of middleman for that. And I guess with my like acting stuff, with the more creative side, I think I don't know, I hope people just enjoy it and learn something, you know, whenever that's kind of relevant. I think, yeah, hopefully, yeah, that they just enjoy it and they really have a good time watching what we do and appreciate the stories. And I think that's yeah, that's probably the most important thing for me is to make sure people are able to lose themselves in the stories. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Yeah, that sort of that escapism or that ability to experience a new perspective or a new reality or or to confront or challenge their own realities. Sort of taking them on that sort of journey spiritually, it's really powerful. Well, you're doing it, sis. You're out here doing the damn thing. So we are so so grateful for you because you know, circling back to where we started, you know, yeah, it there's something so vulnerable and intimate about putting your art out there, and that's why probably 95% of the population ain't doing it. So yeah, really grateful that you're out here doing that. And also simultaneously creating spaces to bring people in there, like with cultural safety and brokering people to be their best selves is a very important role. We call that the black ground or the black up here at at Black Waddle, you know, how we can support people to shine and and take up spaces that they want to. So it's a very important role. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for today, and just excited to see where what's next for you, sis.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

The acting stuff, you never know. It's the stuff always pops up at the last minute, which is kind of cool. It's always the best projects, I think.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're gonna pop all this in our show notes. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today, Carissa. You are an incredible sis doing deadly things, and um just so grateful for your time today. Come to hang out. No, anytime, anytime. Thank you so much for listening, Uma. If you are vibing this season of yarning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecowl.com.au