Teisha Toi - Birthing on Country as a First Nations Woman

In this week’s episode Caroline is joined by proud Wiradjuri and Yuin Woman Teisha Toi. Teisha is a mother, a cultural dancer and woman, a Dhelk Dja Counsellor at Albury Wodonga Health Service (AHWAS) and is deeply passionate about the reclamation and decolonisation of ancient and sacred Aboriginal practices - such as birthing on Country. 

In this potent episode, Caroline and Teisha engage in an exceptionally raw yarn about motherhood, and delve into Teisha's remarkable journey of motherhood and her unique experience of giving birth on Country. Teisha recounts her journey of giving birth on Country, sharing her emotions and insights from the experience and the many profound lessons she's learned in navigating this process, mostly without support from the Western health care system. Together, they both explore their own journeys as daughters and also their mother wounds. This episode serves as a poignant reminder that, despite the impact of colonisation on our traditional practices and ways, are as Teish says, ‘inscribed in our DNA.’

Teisha is committed to sharing her story and facilitating conversations on this topic with those wanting to learn more. She has generously shared her Birthing on Country video which can be found HERE.  To reach out to Teisha and find out more follow her on Instagram HERE.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review so we can elevate First Nations people and stories and don’t forget to follow the show! Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline HERE

We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was recorded. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past and present. And our future young generations.

This episode is for entertainment purposes only and doesn't replace medical advice. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, Proud Barbara Woman and founder of Black Waddle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cal. We acknowledge the Rurundari people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today. It always was and always will be unceded Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land. It's a beautiful sunny day. Beautiful coastline. Teach is surrounded by her loved ones. Husband is not far. He is on hand. Teach and the morgue are preparing the couloman and the possum skin, ready for Nullant's arrival. Smoke billowing. I can almost smell it. Two nurses and health workers are inside. And Tish, my sis, her body, her archetype, her ancestors, they've been here before. Well, I had the absolute uh pleasure of meeting this incredible sister at a recent mother-daughter retreat that uh we uh along with Lee Couch and Brit and yourself kind of co-collaborated on, which was a really special retreat with mothers and daughts down at Hepburn Springs. And, you know, it's funny when you meet people, I always call them sunshine people, because they just emanate this ease and this light and this love. And I think that's precisely how I would define my next guest teacher, a sunshine person. Teacher wears many hats in community, a mother, a cultural woman, um, a Delkjar program counselor at Aubrey Wadonga Health Service. Shout out to those mob who are doing incredible things for community. But today we're going to unpack, I guess, the most, the most sacred role of all motherhood and and teachers' incredible journey to motherhood at that. So I want to start by saying thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome to Yanni Up. It's um a really, it's it's a delight to have you here today, sis.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Oh, thanks for having me, sis. And yes, I would say that you're a sunshine person as well. Um, it was a pleasure and honor to make that connection with you, Sissy, at that camp. And I look forward to our many years together on a on a journey. So yeah, I'll just I'll just introduce myself. So my name is Tisha Maximo McGuinness. Um just recently married. So now Mrs. Toy. I'm a proud Radri Yuan woman, um, and my connections are from the country, the the river people of Brungle, and extends over the mountains into Rec Bay, the South Mob Yuan Nation. So, yes, a bit of a bit of fresh water and a bit of salt water in me. Um, and yeah, proud mother of four um beautiful children, and yeah, I would I would classify myself as the matriarch of of my family and in my lines as well. So, yes, thanks for having me, Sissy, and having this space for me to come and yarn.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

No, thank you, sis. Thank you so much. And yeah, multi-clan woman with with your with your Burrers there. You know, the retreat that we had was just so special, hey, um, around yeah, centering the experiences of Aboriginal women as mothers, as granddaughters, and we had young warriors and and elders and matriarchs all coming together. And I know that you were a real driving force behind that. And yeah, I'm not surprised that you have gone on to share your experiences of being a mum and bringing bringing m women and and mums together in that really special way. So yeah, thank you. And thank you for sharing a bit about your story. I wonder, you know, um, can you tell me a little bit more maybe about your your personal story and um what it was like growing up for you? Um, yeah, keen to hear a bit more if I can.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yeah, sure. So um I'm the oldest sibling um of 11. Wow, I grew up in a home with um two younger siblings. Um, so yeah, my mum's had the three of us, but I'm the oldest from my father. I I guess I I matured quite young as a child and and grew up before my time. So the responsibility and the roles of the oldest child um is an expectation that you carry from from when you're quite young. And as the female, there's an added pressure and an added expectation of you to take care. So I've been taking care of family and the younger siblings from quite a young age. Um, beautiful childhood, it carries a lot of trauma. Um, we all carry trauma, we all carry experiences, but those experiences and the trauma that I carry, you know, has really shaped me into the woman. So I'm glad I've had those experiences and I and I've had those lessons and those traumatic um times because they've really shaped me and grown me and strengthened me as as the woman that I am today. But yep, grew up with a single mother, dad in and out of life, but you know, shout out to dad. He is who he is, and he only knows what he what he's ever known. Um, love him dearly, have a great relationship with him now. But yeah, just when we grow up in those homes and those situations where our parents, you know, did the best that they could do, but you know, still passed on those those experiences. Um, yeah, I I've I I understand their situation, but I also, you know, going into that retreat, um, what why I wanted to be a part of it was because I was carrying a mother wound. Um, and and I, you know, throughout my experiences, you know, and throughout my healing journey, there's still that open wound there that you never really can really get to. Um, because as women we just carry on and we keep going. Um, and so to take my oldest daughter into that experience and help her heal some of those wounds that she's carrying, some of those, some of those traumas that I'd pass on her or created for her. So to step into that space together and together heal my mother wounds and her mother wounds and and heal our wounds together, you know, it was it was really beautiful space and it was amazing. And I guess to extend on that upbringing, um, sis, you know, carrying those experiences is is driven me to be passionate and and to to step into this role into community to help other women become stronger and heal. And um, I don't think it's about women finding who they are again. I think it's about a journey of finding who you are right now. Um because we're never going to be who we were yesterday, and we don't want to be that woman we were yesterday, because every day we wake up, we've grown, we've learned, and we've had an experience, and so yeah, it's about knowing who you are in that moment in that day. And yeah, so you know, all all of everything that I've I've been through and experienced has shaped me to who I am today, and now I'm just in full give back mode. You know, there's I often say to my daughter, to myself, and to the people I love or the people that you know need to hear it is when we can when we can use the weight of our burden, sis, um, as the anchor of our strength, we become unstoppable. Um, and so I've managed to channel the weight of my burdens into the anchor of my strength, and now I'm just thriving and leading in this space and being that being that role model and being that woman that I need to be for my people, my children, my family.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, gosh, that's so powerful, you know, the weight of my burdens into the anchor of my strengths. And you know, I think this is the the most beautiful thing about blackfollers. I mean, there's so many, we could be here for hours, but just our ability to hold multiple truths at the same time. And you're right, like so many of us came from dysfunction and trauma. And um, it's certainly something that has been coming up for me a lot lately in thinking about becoming a mother myself. I actually haven't been really open. This is probably the first time I've even spoken about this on the podcast. That yeah, my partner and I have been on a fertility journey for the last year and a half now. And yeah, like it's just it's not it's not happening the way that it should, or the way that we're designed or or told to. But yeah, that that mother wound and that ability to reparent ourselves as well, and then become the parent is something that if I'm being really honest, um, I certainly wasn't gonna start off diving into this, but I think we have to go there. Um, but yeah, just like this sense of dread and guilt and shame and worry that I'm not going to be a good mother because of the mother wound. And I've been really doing a lot of work in thinking about how do we hold on to the the two truths. I mean, similarly to you, sis, you know, when I look back at um my childhood and we're all so unique, we've all got such different experiences. So I'm I don't know what your experience was like fully, but I I feel the essence of what you're saying. And yeah, like mum was um, yeah, lots of alcohol, lots of mental health issues, lots of violence, lots of sexual violence, and you know, and we were sort of um yeah, lived our lives without having really attentive caregivers. And now I I guess I I still look back still with such fondness and such love and generosity and hope and think, wow, like they did the best they could with the tools they've got. They didn't get everything wrong because we turned out uh okay-ish today, anyway. But um, yeah, so that mother wound has been something that's definitely plagued me. And so maybe, you know, if I could, maybe we could unpack that a little bit. You know, you've got four beautiful children. I mean, how how have you navigated that in becoming the mother and the person that you are and will continue to become? Because I think that's something we need to explore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, we do explore, we do need to explore it, and I guess we do need to go there. And um, I've got it more, you know, I've got it wrong more times than I've got it right. But it's about acknowledging um, you know, the steps we take wrong, acknowledging, you know, that it's okay to make the mistakes, and that there is no handbook, and that every day you wake up, it doesn't matter how many kids you got, it doesn't matter how many, how many years you've been a mother, every day's a new day, right? Something new pops up, some and you just you just take it as as it comes. Like there's no there's no preparation, sis, there's no set way to do things. You just literally wake up and do the best you can with the tools that you have each every and every day. And that that's that's just it. Like there's no there's there's no way of doing it right, you know, there's the Western way, the the things, the box ticking, um, but you know, that's unrealistic for anyone, any human being. We're all humans, we all are just navigating this world however best we can. Um But yeah, all I all I can do is reflect on you know the experiences that we've had, um reflect on the mothering that I that I have um the mother that I have been and just try and be better every single day, try and do better every single day, and try and be the best version of myself every single day, so that my children have a hundred percent me, um a full I guess, a full um, you know, tuned in mother, authentic mother that's just you know doing the best she can, but but leading her children in in this world. So yeah, there's no, you know, you can prepare for years and years, sis.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, and then you you it's so it's like the the thing that is just so out of your control, really, isn't it? It is all the variables, uh everything from each stage from preparing for um to fall pregnant to falling pregnant to the labor to you know what personality and characteristics your child, it's just you know, there really is no such thing as a perfect plan. But you know, the modern world, the Western, Eurocentric view of assumes that you know the mother has to be the expert and know everything can do it on their own and can't ask for help, and it just takes us so far away from how we as black fellas understand families and and village and community working together, hey.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

It is, and you know what? Like this is probably a really controversial statement, we're gonna say it anyways. Um just you know, complimenting what you just said, you know, the Western way and what we should be doing. And I tell you the the rawest truth I can give you is that you know, as a parent, as a mother especially, we have to put ourselves first unselfishly. Um and to and to get in in that space and and to to allow yourself to put yourself first in an unselfish way, right? Because all we've ever known is is as our mother or our father, I'll I'll speak for myself. My mother's always put herself first unconsciously, but in a selfish way. So it's about recognizing those behaviors that I've watched, recognizing myself and now putting myself first unselfishly to be the best version of my children. So if I'm not well, if I'm not right, if I'm not in tune with myself a hundred percent, how can I ever be what my babies need me to be? And that's the truth. Um there's an expectation that the mother has to put the children first and put their needs first and and cater to their needs and to the needs of her husband and her community and her family, but no, and that's where we're getting it wrong. We have to put ourselves first in that unselfish way and be the best version of ourselves for ourselves first, so then our babies can get the best of us and the best from us.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, it's such a it's it's such a simple but such a powerful thing that you're just saying, which is yeah, I think if you neglect self and you don't and you fall out of love with self or you're f fall out of being present with self or you abandon yourself, then how on earth can you be attentive and present to the things that are happening in your life and especially your children? Yeah, I think I'd love to, if we can, I would love to unpack that a little bit further because I know there'd be so many mums and and especially black women who listening, listening to the show, who, you know, are constantly providing feedback around how do I say no when the world, the colony, my family, the community just demands so, so much from us. So I wonder if we can park that and come back to it because I know that's something that we are all experiencing. But let's let's kind of open up with a little bit around your your birthing experience on country. And I said to Tisha before we started recording that if I can get through this without crying around, which I I have no problems in, I am pro-tears, but um, just so that I can continue to speak, because you have generously shared a clip with me of you giving birth on country. It is a beautiful, like awe inspiring. I don't even know if there's really English words. I don't, I wish, I wish I had language and some of my own tongue and not the colonizer's tongue to describe it because all I can ex, all I can sort of say about the video is that it's this beautiful 13-minute clip of Tisha giving birth on country. She is, it's a beautiful sunny day there, down near the water near the coastline, you know, children and helpers and healers, and mom, it sounds like is there. Um, mom's rooting for you throughout it, and yeah, very attentive. Now hubby is right there with you the entire every breath that you took, he was there, you know, seeing I'm getting chills. And I'm getting teary. Oh it is, yeah. I I I I cried multiple times. I cried after it. It just transcends life in in all of its beauty. Before I go to just kind of talking about the experience, you know, me being at this moment uh I guess a non-biological mother, I went and did some Googling before this to look at, you know, birthing practices. And um I got met with this article which spoke about um everything you need to know about birthing, basically since birthing began. And it started approximately 500 years ago. And I just want to read through a couple of these things and I want to just kind of circle back to, you know, how we as Indigenous people have come at birth. So it the the article starts in the 1500s and it just talks about European women, you know, it doesn't have any uh no other people of colour or anything being mentioned. You know, 1591, it talks about a Scottish woman being burned at the stake, fasting for pain relief. Um, it goes on to talk about right up until the 70s, you know, fathers were finally allowed to stay with their pa with their partner during the labour. 1980s is really when home birth and birthing centers were finally considered a part of the way that women have already given birth. And I was just truly blown away that, yeah, we couldn't, I couldn't find anything about black women, about ancient practices, about you know, the ways that Aboriginal um indigenous people have been giving birth for thousands of years. Um they have had, you know, uh rituals and ceremonies around labor and birth and postpartum periods. And so, yeah, I was just I was in, I was not surprised, but it just goes to show that you know colonization is really interwoven into every single tapestry, even you know, women and mothers' first experiences. Um so with that, I want to just sort of say, can you share with me a little bit around um you know, just birthing on country generally? You know what what's your knowledge of how um birthing on country practices have come to be? Um, because I'd really like to go back to this, you know, before colonization, we were we were doing this as an uninterrupted practice for so long. And it just seems that um there's so much written knowledge, I guess, um, missing about this. And as more and more women are thinking about this as a process and practice, you know, where do we find out? Information about this?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, look, and that's a good question. And unfortunately, I don't have the answer for you. You know, I guess on colonization, a lot of our ways and our practices have been taken from us and haven't been returned to us. That knowledge has been lost. Um, you know, not written down, not not found. Um, but I just want to highlight the fact that the knowledge is in our DNA sis, the the books written inside of our makeup, right? And so it wasn't a it wasn't it wasn't a matter where I've gone and sought out that um information or that advice from the aunties, because unfortunately, those generations, they're not carrying it. And that's not everyone, that's that's the majority, you know. Some some women have um law knowledge around birthing and stuff, but unfortunately for me, I don't have those women in my life, and so I relied solely on that imprinted DNA that I carry, um, knowing and listening to myself, listening to the country, listening to you know, my ancestors and being guided to that space. Um, I just found my way there and knew that it was the right thing for me to do, and not only the right thing for me to do, but the right thing for me to show the way and and to bring that story back without having it written in a book, you know, showing women um that this is what we've done. And it it obviously is what we've done because it happened so naturally and so normal. Um, and yeah, it hurt a little bit, but nothing like the pain I experienced in a hospital system when I birthed my first children. Um and so, yeah, I just want to highlight again that it's it's information that's imprinted into our DNA. We we hold we hold the knowledge, we hold that space and it and and it's imprinted in us. And so listening, being aware of yourself, knowing yourself, and knowing that the strength you carry isn't just your strength, but the strength of all those ancestors and those people that came before you.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

What a beautiful way to reframe my my colonized mindset, really, in thinking about this um in giving birth. I think it's a reminder how important language is. And you're right, it's it's something our bodies have been doing since we existed. It's something we've had practice around, you know, as women's business since millennia. And so it it comes back to that inner knowing and finding that time to get clear and check in, listen, you know, listen to yourself, um, value your own knowing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah, yeah. And listening to that deep spring that's within us, allowing that deep spring to bubble and and grow and flow, right? Um if if that deep spring within us that we carry is flowing and you know we're listening to it and we're being guided, then you know, there's no interruptions, there's no outside um negative influence. We're just fully in tune with ourselves and our mother. And I'm talking about, you know, Mother Earth here, and you know, if we can maintain that connection as an individual with mother, then we become the greatest mothers.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

So yeah. Wow, it's powerful. Gosh, I could listen to you, Yan. See what I was saying before about sunshine person, how you're just one of those people that is just so powerful and I'm hanging off every single word. It's not really great for a podcast, but my mouth is just like in awe. I mean, let's think about that. I guess that connection with mother and um your connection with mother. You know, you gave birth to your second child, Nullah on Country, in this beautiful clip. Um third child.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Third child. Third yeah, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

I wonder if you can walk us through the process and the day. Like, firstly, I mean, very keen to to hear about what led you to give birth to baby number three, Nulla on Country. And I'm wondering if you could kind of walk us through through the through the process and the day and how it went for you. And yeah, if you could kind of help us understand this this process that you went through.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, look, it's it was a massive journey, and um and it was a massive journey, sis, that started well before even you know thoughts about creating him. Um you know, I I walked away from an extremely violent, volatile relationship that I found myself in um, you know, that pattern for a good 10 years. Um, and I found my twin flame. Um, from the moment Marcus and I met, I knew that um, you know, we're meant to be together and you know there were there were dreams with our old people talking and discussing us, and it was it was crazy. Um and then you know the next step of that relationship was you know to create to create another part of our love in in a little person, and so you know, we would decided, yeah, we've both come into this relationship, we both have two children each from our our previous relationships, and we wanted to, you know, share our love together and create um create a child from just the most purest form of love. Um and you know, a a lot of people, and and I one created children previously to fix something or to fill a hole that or or to or to mend a wound that I was carrying. I wasn't creating children to create them from pure love, and um, and that's that's the that's the reality, and that's that's the you know raw truth of my story. And so we decided that you know we would create nullah, and we we lost the child before we created Nullah, um, and you know, through that healing journey um and through understanding you know, loss, we were gifted nullah. Um, and so you know, the experiencing the loss of that first pregnancy, um knowing that I was creating a child out of the purest form of love, it really was really heavy. And so, you know, I was like, you know what? I've been gifted this fellow, I'm gonna do everything proper ways. Um, I'm not going to listen to mainstream and do the mediocre, this is how you got to do stuff. I was like, I'm gonna go back to grassroots. My people have been here since the beginning. I'm gonna go back to their ways. I like you tried to study, tried to find out, reached out to many people, just trying to be like, where do I go? How do I do this? What do I do? And you know, six months into that pregnancy, I was like, woman, you know what you have to do. It's in your DNA, you know. Listen, listen to yourself, listen to your old people, trust yourself, and so yeah, um, I reached out after Googling so much um to an Aboriginal midwife up the North Coast, and she was doing ceremony out on country um with mothers um who have just birthed, and I was like, sis, I'm gonna birth back out on country. Um can can you support me? I was like, because at the end of the day, when I'm at that point where I'm gonna when I'm where I'm in labor, I'm gonna go down the river and I'm just gonna sit under a tree and I'm gonna do it anyways. But I thought I'd reach out first just to have that that sister support, you know, that that matriarchal support because it's a space that women carry together. And she's like, sis, I haven't done it, but I know we can do it. Um, and I I can't have you with my Western um medical background go out and sit under a tree and do it by yourself. So I I drove up to Nara, I met with her, and she said, Doesn't matter what I say, you're gonna do it, and I can see I can see um the strength that you carry and the willpower. So yeah, she jumped on board, um reached out to some home birthing midwives who have been um you know in that space and holding that space for many years. Um they currently have a campaign running across the country and they come from um birth time Australia. So yeah, they're they're amazing women. They came down, they supported me, um, and I guess manage the Western risks, right? Manage the box ticking, um, the medical side of it, because you know, that's just the world we live in now. We walk in those two worlds and we have to we have to by law follow that way. Um and so, you know, Marcus and I going into that space knew that you know this is this is how messed up it was that we had to acknowledge the fact that if anything went wrong that we were responsible if if our child had a medical emergency or did pass away during that process, that you know we would be held accountable. And you know what? We owned that and took that responsibility straight on our shoulders because we knew at the end of the day we were doing the right thing, and we had over 60,000 years worth of women before us that did the same thing. Um and so yeah, I guess we uh I went up and stayed out on country for a couple months before um birthing sun, and I guess a week before my due date, all the midwives, the Aboriginal midwife and the two home birthing midwives came down um and met me and said, did we did a little ceremony um and kind of cleansed our spirits um as a united force, right? And then we went out on country out to the national park where our birthed sun the week before it was about, I don't know, midday, and I was like, this is I was just drawn to a spot where the fresh water rolled into the ocean. Um remember I said previously that's what I'm made of, fresh water and ocean people. So it was a magnificent. It was a spot that um resonated with me because of the history and and the family lineage that I carry. I said I'm gonna birth under this tree, the sun's gonna be right there where it is in the sky now. It's gonna be a beautiful day surrounded by um you know just just that pure peace and that love and that unity. Um I can imagine that on that day animals are gonna come out of the bush and witness this experience. Um, I'm gonna have him and then go home. Right? They're like, yeah, all right, we'll see. Yep. Anyways, week later, went into labor, went out to the spot, it was the exact same same time of day, um, beautiful day, beautiful space. All the animals were coming out and watching me during that labor. And as you can see, and have as you have seen on the video, those animals did come out and and and surrounded me. Um, and obviously, you know, that's them old people coming and watching and watching their dreams that they had for us come true in that moment. And I tell you what, sis, it was a hectic pregnancy. All I had was, you know, pushback and negativity, and and you can't and you won't, and this is what you're gonna create, and you're gonna kill your child, and this, this, this, this, and that, and I just like acknowledged it. I accepted that those people are those people and they are who they are, and I understood that their way of thinking was a trained way of thinking, um, and fully respected everything that was said to me, but knew that I knew what I was doing and that I was capable to do what I what I did and what I achieved. And I guess the greatest part about it was yes, you know, in a Western system where mothers are pregnant and giving birth, that the husbands and the children are excluded from that experience. From the moment that you say you're pregnant, children aren't invited to those um visits with the doctor, children aren't part of those checkups, and then we have a child and bring this new child home and say, Okay, you kids, now love this creature that's just taken your mother away from you. So to have the children part of that process and a part of that experience, you know. That that was what it was all about for me to to show my daughter the power that we possess as black women, um, to show my daughter that with all the pushback in the world that you can do what you want to do if you're willing to put in, you know, the work and back yourself to show her that you are not constrained by the systems that hold us and suppress us, that you can achieve and your mother's here to do it for you and every other woman to know that yeah, you possess the power. No one else can can hold or take away your power unless you allow them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Wow. Oh my god, I've got so so many thoughts and feelings running through my mostly feelings. It's it's it's it's a deeply spiritual and emotional conversation, this, because I mean, just the belief that you had and that knowing and that fire and that you and Marcus were so united in what you wanted as sovereign, sacred, you know, ancestral people. Because you're right, like what you said about they're going back to the conditioning. And, you know, when we're looking at decolonizing health, it's returning back to practice that have sustained us, but that are just not valued by Western science. And so, you know, you held that belief and that vision. I mean, I've got a couple of clarifying questions just to go back for the listeners. So when you made that decision, you know, six months during the process, were and did so you had to source out your own support, you know, at that stage, what did what were you met with in the in the healthcare system? What did you have to do this all on your own? Were you supported? Was there anyone else kind of, you know, did yeah, I wonder what what you had to sort of go through to to actually yeah, birth on country. And then what do you think? Then the second kind of question is that is like, what do we need to see changing in this system to make this a bit more accessible and more supported and and more guided?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Okay, so to so the first part of your question. Um I made the decision to birth on country before I even conceived NULLA. Um, the reference to six months in was I was doubting myself for the first six months because of the pushback and the um the I guess the no's from the Western system. So I did have the support. So I I work at the AMS here in my community, and you know, being attending this AMS, they know me, the doctors know me. Um I spoke to my you know obstetrician who works at the service and was like, you know what, this is what I'm gonna do. Um it's it's not even a it's not even a matter of I'm wanting to do it, I'm needing to do this for for for my women, for my daughter. Um and from the start, he was he was like, There's there's no way. And I was like, what do you mean there's no way? Like I wouldn't be here right now if all the women before me didn't didn't hold that space, right? And he's like, it's it's not possible. And I was like, the more you tell me no, mate, the more I'm going to go and do it. Um and so I was like, you know what, Marcus? You know, there's a massive birthing tree on the river down um into like down at um town here. I was like, literally on the other side of the hill is the hospital. I was like, we'll just go down there. I'm just gonna do my thing. If anything happens, babe, just ring the ambulance because it's literally a two-second drive over the hill. Um, I told the doctors that, you know, this is what I was gonna do. Um, and so yeah, just the constant pushback and just the constant no's and it was, you know, this Aboriginal midwife that's been practicing for a while in the hospitals and holding that safe cultural space for women in the Western hospital system. I reached out to her. Um, I knew she was, you know, fundraising, trying to get money together to create uh Aboriginal women's birthing space up on her on country, back on you and country. So I just reached out and said, sis, this is what uh what I need to do. Can you support me? Like, I want I I need support. I was like, I'm I'm gonna do it either way. I was like, but I want that cultural safety and that support that I know you can provide. I haven't just been led to you for no reason, you know. I'm listening, and you have come into my life, and I need you in that space. Um, I need you to hold be that container for me during that during that time. And she just said, yeah, like I have to listen as well, and that's us. Like it's that, like I said, that listening to what you've been told, being so in tune with yourself that you are fully connected to mother and and the instructions that you receive, you're hearing without even doing. Um so yeah, just being a hundred percent confident in who I am and where I come from. It was it was gonna happen to this. Like I don't know how to explain it. I just there was a bigger driving force behind it than my willpower. Um, and like I said, I truly believe it it's the strength of those old people that I carry pushing me and getting me, and you know, we're all walking um and living the dreams that they had for us, and and that's just another dream that they had that that that practice and those ways would continue on, and you know, that's me rewriting that story for now. Um so yeah, I don't know how what else to say about that. I just it still blows me away. Um, you know, it still puts me in in puts me in this place of just being in awe and not of myself, but what what I was able to what I was able to do, you know. Um, and like I said, it wasn't even about me, it was about those future generations and those young girls that have all the control and and all that power taken from them in that birthing and pregnancy space from the beginning of even thinking about creating your own family, you know, you're just so influenced, and it's such a fear-based system that works perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah. It kind of just it's just a beautiful reminder, or it makes me wonder about what would be possible for us if we spent more time doing what you said earlier about nurturing self to get that sense of clarity, to trust ourselves and to build self-trust and self-compassion as black people and and black followers just kind of makes you think what else is possible if we get clear with ourselves and allow that space for our ancestors to just be there. You know, I I often um call and speak to them in a time of crisis instead of just being with them and guiding. And so it just, yeah, for me, it's just a stark reminder of how do we get more in tune and more into that space.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Look, sis, and and 100%. And you know, for for this story to be successful, you know, um, for other women in this today, you know, I could testify to that. I had Nullah, I did it on country, I've shared that experience. I've after Nala, I had another child, and I took my experience and my space that I had out on country into the hospital system and had an even more glorious birth because I walked into that Western system carrying all the strength, all the control, and all the power and birth on birthed my way in that space in full control, um, and made that Western system sit and be quiet while I held that space for myself with my family. Um, and I guess if you're if you're confident in enough in yourself and believe in yourself enough and know yourself that you can take a birth in your country experience in any setting and own that space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Oh, that's so powerful, so powerful to hear. Because you're right, like I think the healthcare system. Generally, in all the work that we do in looking at racism in hospitals and especially the female gendered experience, is that you know, healthcare systems are the only place where it's about speed and efficiency. It's not a deep, it's not an intentional, loving black, pro-black space. And so, yeah, to hear you have gone through this kind of transformative experience, bring all of that power, all of that strength, all of that beauty, all of that knowledge back into the healthcare system to reclaim it that it and that it's on your terms is truly, truly powerful. And there's probably a lot of women, you know, not just black fellows or sisters, that, you know, do just have their rights taken away, especially when giving birth. And so how do we make this process more person-centered and more individualized for the for the individual to decide? Because there's no one-way, there's no blanket rule approach. But it seems as though when women go in for these, these for labor and leading up to labor, we're just kind of conditioned, indoctrinated, or led to believe that this is the blueprint, this is how it has to be done. And if we deviate from that, um, that we're not doing it right. Um, so yeah, I love I love hearing this yarn and speaking truth to power here. And that, yeah, what a reminder for all people who are experiencing this to really, like you say, just trust yourself. Trust yourself.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Yeah, and I think in the process and of life, sis, we forget to be still, and that's the number one, right? We need to sit, be still, and listen. And in the birthing space, the exact same. Sit and be still, listen, and then carry that confidence with you. Um you know, it's such a fear-driven space. Um and that comes down to once again that colonization, that that control. Um, if if if you can if you can manage to get in tune with yourself and really listen and know and be confident in the fact that you can do it. Your body is designed mechanically to do this, you know, without any issues and carry that that strength. Yeah. Reach out to reach out to women who have had great experiences. You know, we always hear about the horror stories and what goes wrong and and how horrible this pregnancy was and how sick I was in this pregnancy, but you know, where's the talk up and and the build-up from the sisters saying, well, you know, I had a great experience during this pregnancy, or you know what, I walked into that space and I birthed so calmly. Like, where are the build-up stories? Where are the sisters picking up the other sisters and you know, really cheering on other sister girls for wins, not just that, you know, sharing that trauma and and sharing those those negative stories to build each other up. And the only way around that is to do it for ourselves, sis. Mob know how to take care of mob, and it's time that we we do, we're not in competition with one another. Share the beauty of sisterhood with one another because it's the way forward for us, sister girls, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Absolutely, and just how grateful we are for you sharing this story is a very personal and sacred one, but really helping us all understand, like you like you say, what what we've always known and what we've always done, and just the power of the gift and the medicine that is your story and sharing this for other women is really, really special. So I I thank you so much. I mean, can I ask you maybe this is a selfish question because of where I'm at in my journey? You the the labour process. I mean, I I don't I obviously I know that that clip is a 13-minute clip and that wasn't the full labor experience, but the poise and the grace, and you know, you were one there with your breath, and you know, it seems to me that um yeah, watching you just do what your body had to be done because you had that sense of expansiveness of knowing and being okay in your skin, I mean, was truly something so powerful to watch. But if we flip to motherhood and post-labour, you know, I'd really like to know, you know, what what what aspects of motherhood do you find the most fulfilling? And, you know, how has it challenged and shaped you as well? Like what has been the sort of what lessons has becoming a mother um meant for you?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah, look, um I guess I'll start with the biggest lesson is I guess being programmed in my upbringing that the children, you love the children the same, they all get the same, um, there's no favoritism, but you know, it's taken me. My my oldest is is 15 and a half, and it's taken me, you know, the last 14 years. About a year ago, I realized that every child that you you have has their own individual personality, has their own, you know, love needs, has their own individual needs and connection needs with you as a mother, and so listening to your child, picking up on the cues and being present in their needs and providing that space with each child as an individual, not as a collective, would be the biggest lesson I've learned, sis. Um, prior to that understanding, I was loving them the same, I was giving them the same amount of time, I was, you know, giving them the same amount of presence or giving them the same amount of whatever it was, um, and not even acknowledging the fact that this child needs this from me and this child needs this from me. Um, and asking them, you know, I did a great activity probably a year ago with the the older children, and it was that simple love languages quiz on the internet. And I said, you all have devices, sit down, you fellas, let's sit down as a family on our phones and let's do the love languages quiz. And we sat there and we Marcus did it, I did it, and both Lila and Zeke did it. And wow, like I thought I knew my kids, man, and I was loving them completely wrong, and I was loving them selfishly, right? I was loving them the way I wanted to love them. I was loving them the way that I didn't receive love when I was that age, or what I wanted at that age, and not even considering them as their own authentic little self and and what needs they needed from me. And that love languages quiz was amazing, man. It just wow blew my head off, like just had them completely wrong. But I was coming at that angle of that selfish love, right? That unconscious, selfish, selfish love, fulfilling those needs that I had within myself, um, healing those wounds within myself about and loving them the way I wanted and what I missed out on without acknowledging them as their own people. Um I think the greatest the greatest advice uh again is when you're a parent is that deep listening again, listen to your child, be present, watch behaviors. We never spoke. Our people didn't speak, it was all visual. We didn't need to communicate verbally because you know our body language and the and what we did was the way we communicated, and children are so raw and real and they really show us the old ways, right? They in their behavior, in in the way they act, in the way that they seek love. Um and so yeah, just being present and listening again, it comes down to that deep listening. And I I'll keep talking about it because that is truly what we don't do anymore. We're so busy and lost in the in work and the technology and the devices, and you know, we uh we're listening with our eyes 24-7, but we need to stop and peel back and listen deeply within ourselves and you know, use our ears, truly. Yeah, I don't know if I answered all of that question, but that's where I went.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

You so did. And as I say, I could just listen to you speak about this stuff all day, but it's one of those things when you say it, it it it sounds so it's just nice, I think, to be reminded that really it is just about stripping us all back, getting rid of that ego, getting rid of that being told how to do things. And and and it's just interesting to hear that just like your pregnancy um and your labor wasn't a one-size, that you have continued that approach with looking at how you view your children. It's that holistic kind of approach. And you know, for children of trauma and you know, for us who have kind of had to navigate some of the adversities from our parents, you know, it's just so comforting to hear, I guess, that there is a new way for us to to love ourselves, most importantly, as you've said, and then go on to sort of emanate that love to our children and that yeah, we don't have to recreate all of these unhelpful patterns that we have learnt, that we can relearn and unlearn and yeah, do things a different way, do things our way. Um, but yeah, it's just beautiful to hear that, you know, that the way that our parents would have parented us was just so yeah, blanket, blanket approach. So yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

I know, and you know what, I just want to extend on that too. Um, part of you know who I am today is acknowledging and owning my shit, man. Like owning the shit that I've created and owning you know, the behaviors and and destruction that I've that I've created in the past through, you know, all the pathways that I took previously, owning that and really, really just being like, you know what, yep, that was me, and I own that, and this is me now. Like, until we can fully sit in and own everything that we've done, you're never gonna get to a place of deep listening, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Because you're still distracting yourself and still, yeah, you need to own your shit like straight up. And like being like deep listening is getting fucking really honest with yourself, and it can be really confronting when you're left with the those shadows and the stuff that people yeah don't necessarily see. You're so right. So I'm saying it's such a sounds like such a simple, beautiful, easy process, but I can imagine there's lots of setbacks and challenges along the way and getting like really reacquainted with ourselves, like and you know, making ourselves comfortable in our in our shit as well. Like it's hard, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

And I talk a lot, I talk a lot about you know being strong and carrying the strength and being this person, but sis, we've got to just fucking sit there and just I hate being strong all the time. Like, I want to be vulnerable, I want to be in that vulnerable state, and we don't allow ourselves, or if we do become vulnerable, it's an unhealthy place, and you know, that's where patterns or drug use or alcohol abuse or you know, perpetrators of violence find you in those unhealthy, vulnerable places. So it's about sitting and and and listening, allowing yourself to be vulnerable, not just being that staunch, strong person all the time. Go through the motions. If you're feeling sad, sit in it, be still in it, allow that time to pass. Um that's how we heal, and that's how we we get out, we become you know, strong because we're allowing ourselves to be in a vulnerable place that's healthy. Um we need to, we need to, and we don't, especially as black women, because of those expectations I was talking about, those family expectations, those community expectations, those workplace expectations, you know, the expectations that you that your children put on you. Um, and so we just go, go, go, go, and just it doesn't matter what happens, we just keep, you know, we get through it and we just keep moving forward, but we need to sit and be still, allow ourselves to be in a healthy, vulnerable place to go through those motions, to sit still through those times and allow them to pass in their own time.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Gosh, uh, I get I'm getting chills. You're you're just I'm just like shaking my head, air high-fiving, because you're right. I I feel you on that, sis. You know, when we sort of put that strong black trope or angry black trope, we're just like dehumanizing all of our emotions that we all carry. And, you know, one of my sort of mantras or ways of teaching in working with women in how to look after ourselves, to care for the collective is, you know, how do we just uncomplicate it? You know, just go back to what we have always known, that that stillness. And you're right, like just being with it, sitting in it, not having to have the answers. I think so much of this Western way of looking after yourself is actually doing. It's like, you've got to go here, you've got to do this, you've got to, it's just like uncomplicating it. How do we just be with it? How do we just sit in it? And so I want to, you know, my last question and kind of circles back to your first point, which is I mean, obviously I could talk to you all day, by the way, but I'm conscious that you've got, you know, your own responsibilities. You know, how can we truly, truly show up for ourselves and love and care for ourselves as black women and show ourselves that grace and compassion that we so freely give out to others? What does it look like for you personally? How do you find time to to nurture self in all of this?

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Uh yeah, so I guess when I am vulnerable, I do I do look at myself like that little girl that's crying, you know. Sis, if if you were to see a little girl crying, a little two-year-old crying in the street and alone, what would you do? What's the first thing you would do for that little girl?

SPEAKER_00 58:46

I'd check in, go give her a hug, take the ride.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

You would that's right, you would hold her tight and just reassure her that she's safe. And so when I'm feeling vulnerable, I hold on to myself, that little girl inside of me, and say, you know what, you are safe, sis, it's okay, and comfort her. Um that's where I start. That's where I start that. Um, you know, now that I am a grown-up, now that I am in this big world, I take myself from the busyness and I go and sit and be still in with mother. I go to the river or I go to a space that's in the bush, or even if you're in the city, you can go to a park and take your shoes off and plant your feet in mother, you know, wiggle your toes in mother and and give her everything that's what she's there for. Give her, give her all of those things that you're carrying because she will take them. Um so, yes, I go and be in nature when I can. Like I said, for those that don't have the luxury of being in the bush like me, go to a park, go put your feet in that dirt and give mother your worries. Let mother comfort you. Um, and see yourself as that little person and and comfort yourself. Um, but yeah, that you know, that's what I do, sis.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

It's such a beautiful thing to to share because you're right, inside of us is yeah, our inner children. I often think about that. There's probably an angry teenager in there, there's all these different shadows and parts, and how do we send it love? And how do we find time to do that? By, you know, when we say connecting on country, country is available everywhere, and we we can show it love and tenderness and be gentle and patient with it at any time. Um, yeah, gosh, you are just um yeah, a formidable warrior, mother, sister, cultural woman. Um and yeah, I actually feel even just sitting in this conversation with you, I feel a sense of calmness which has come over me from your presence. So I just want to say thank you for that um and for offering up glimmers of of your personal story and in sharing it for other women and mothers who are thinking about birthing on country, but also more importantly, the take home for me is just how do we build in a bit of time to get more intentional with ourselves and to begin to trust and love ourselves and honour our knowing, value our knowing, create space for our knowing, um, and take action on our knowing too.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Welcome, Sissy. And you know, I just I just want to touch again like there aren't books. No, it's written in our DNA, it's imprinted, you know. Listen and and read it from within. That's there, and we all carry it as as you know, First Nations people, black followers. But we have it written in our DNA. Yeah. Read it, look inside yourself and read the story.

unknown 1:02:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

Wow, you're right. We've got this ancient sacred compass, um, and our ancestors are always guiding. I think we I think we all sort of fall into the tripwire of our proximity to whiteness and our proximity to white systems and ways, but it's returning, it's returning back. And I think we're all sort of going through this shifting of of consciousness and ideas and stories like this and Aboriginal knowledge is what is going to set us all free in a way, you know. Um, so yeah, I can't thank you enough. I feel like I could sit here and talk to you for hours. I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for being so generous and sharing. Um, and it would be lovely to have you back on to continue this yarn at some stage.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

Oh, look, Sissy, you're more than welcome. Like big love to you. Hey, um, and yeah, I could talk all day too. Trust me, I um never shut up. But you know what? That's that's why I that's why I walk this world. Um, I'm a voice and you know, I possess a voice that demands attention and I will continue to do that. And you know, I hope that you know, once my voice is heard, it gives other women the power to have also a voice that demands attention and to be heard. And so thanks for holding this space, sissy, and inviting me on. And whenever you want to yarn, reach out, and whenever you want me back on here, reach out. And you know, if if mob out there want to have yarns about certain topics, reach out to Caroline, Sissy Girl there, and you know, we'll make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would love to. I would love, I know, I know our paths will cross formally and informally. Um, and yeah, I I'll definitely be hitting you up for for a yarn or two as I navigate this journey. But just um, yeah, I would love to open up a space when it felt right to be able to have these yarns with you. Because yeah, we're really returning back to, and yeah, I'm so grateful for for your knowledge and time today and your love and energy. Like it's just beautiful. So thank you, sis. Thank you so much for listening, you mob. If you are vibing this season of yarning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www.carolinecal.com.