Brooke Boney - Finding yourself in First Nations Media

In this episode, Caroline is joined by a proud Gamilaroi Woman,  Brooke Boney.  Brooke is a News and Entertainment Reporter for Today, with a background in political journalism and previous experience working for National Indigenous Television (NITV), SBS, and the ABC. After her role as Triple J's weekday morning news presenter, Brooke joined the Today Show. 

During their conversation, Caroline and Brooke discuss their personal stories and  upbringings in large First Nations  families. Brooke, an exceptional storyteller, writer, and reporter, shares her journey from her childhood and the career and life she has built for herself.  They discuss Brooke Boney’s beautiful interaction with Denzel Washington, and other celebrities she has met and interviewed. 

Towards the end of the conversation, they delve into the topic of burnout and self-care. Working in the fast-paced media industry, Brooke shares her philosophy on avoiding burnout and finding ways to reground, balance, and stay afloat. To keep up to date with Brooke, be sure to follow on Instagram here. 

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show! 

Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here! 

We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.

This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.

www.ontrackstudio.com.au

@on.track.studio

For advertising opportunities please email hello@ontrackstudio.com.au

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This podcast is brought to you by OnTrack Studio. Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of First Nations excellence. To help us learn and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future. I'm your host, proud Barbara Momman and founder of Blackwattle Coaching and Consulting, Caroline Cowell. This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen, and unceded Aboriginal lands of the Warundari people of the Kulan Nation. I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders, your elders, and all owners of country of this beautiful place that we call home. Well, I am super excited slash nervous about today's guest. Today I have the privilege of sitting down with Australian News and Entertainment Presenter on Nine Network's Breakfast Program today. Uh, Gamileroy Woman and Total Icon Brooke Boney. Thank you so much for joining me today, sis.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

They are very kind words. Thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to having a good chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, no, thank you. As I was just saying off air, I was a bit nervous today because I have just so much respect and admiration for you as a fellow sister. And yeah, I'm just so grateful to have your time and energy today.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Sorry to cut you off. I'm I'm so excited to talk to you. And I think we've been trying to tee this up for such a long time now. So it's been in my head for like ages. And I think there's a real connection or like a real privilege that comes with being able to talk to someone when you know that you have like shared experiences or shared history. So, like, as ex I'm as excited as you are to talk to.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Thank you. I guess you know, with that in mind, that shared experience. Um, I was reading that you grew up in a housing commission with your single mum and you're one of six. Yeah. Which also similar. I'm also one of six. I also grew up in commission housing with my mostly single mum, I guess, at the time. And yeah, I guess I'm curious maybe just to start there. I mean, how has being a part of a beautiful, black, blended family um shaped you in who you are today? Do you think?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Look, I think you know, you don't want to sort of discount how hard that sort of life is. You know, I'm sure you feel the same like when you're growing up and people talk down to you or they don't have very high expectations. Like that's that's a big burden for kids to carry. And I think you can tell when people don't handle you very delicately as as a child, you know, or they don't don't pay as much attention to you, or or they don't think that you're going to achieve as much or whatever. And and you do carry the burden of that, and then you add on top of that, like you know, the social issues that we know are really prevalent in our communities, like it's a hard life, yeah, being a a blackfather in in that sort of circumstance, and you know, even hearing of stories of other blackfollowers, and you're like, wow, it we even had it sort of tougher than than you guys, and you know, I thought you guys had it pretty tough. But you know, on the flip side of that is like I look at the way that I've been able to build a life for myself where I do feel happy and I do feel safe, and you know, I am so grateful. Like, do you sometimes pinch yourself that you've been able to do what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

All the time, every day, I think, wow, I'm taking up a space that was never meant for me, and that many of my family just haven't been able to do. So, what a what a privilege. What am I gonna do with this? That I've that the the choice and what choices am I going to make with this privilege, essentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

Yeah, and it's like not even like oh my ancestors weren't allowed to do this, like until very, very recently. Like we're not in spaces like this.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

It's such a privilege, and it's not lost on me. And I do reflect on it probably more than I should or ought to, but it's it's hard not to when you grow up with nothing, and you you know, you think about those times when there wasn't enough food, yeah. Or you know, like when uh when you were scared, or you know, when you didn't know what your future would look like, like where we are now. I don't know, it feels like nothing short of a miracle, really.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, oh totally, you're right. I think there's maybe a discourse where you see people who have had success that it's sort of like a binary rags to riches sort of story, but there is like this iterative uh conversation that you're having as you inquire about yourself and what yeah, what does a beautiful life really look like for you? And yeah, I think it's uh it's it's such a journey to to feel that you're worthy of the things that you might not have had otherwise. So I think it's always shaping us, isn't it? But yeah, I'm I'm interested. So you're are you the eldest? Did I read that?

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Yeah, yeah, so I'm I'm the oldest, so I'm sort of like the boss of everyone else.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Oh quite a duty being the eldest.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

It is in a family like that where you're like, you know, you have to babysit the younger kids from when you're just a kid. And you're like, you know, you know, you're used to bossing people around and having like pretty high expectations from your family on you. So it's it's funny because you know, your relationship changes, I guess, as you get older with your siblings. But like it was very much when I was in my 20s, I very much still thought of myself as like the the carer of those kids, you know. Yeah, sort of worry about them like they weren't adults or like they were my own children. And then I I think I don't know how I came to the realization, probably with therapy, that I was like, oh no, they're adults now, and they're my siblings, like I don't have to have those thoughts and feelings about them, like I'm responsible for them anymore.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah, totally. Well, yeah, like an unlearning of that responsibility and that the dynamic that will play out in in other ways, but yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Do you like that with your siblings?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Yeah, I mean, definitely. I'm the I'm the second youngest.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Oh, so you're one of the babies then.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

I'm one of the babies. My my elder sister is 13 years older than me, and my mum and her were both pregnant at the same time growing up. Um, mum was pregnant at 40 with my younger brother, and my sister was pregnant when she was 16. And so, yeah, these kind of blurred lines of kin and friend and auntie and sister is just what we know and what we've inherited and what we love. But it's interesting over the last few years, we've had um a bit of sorry business.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

We lost our mum last year, and it's just I'm so sorry, yeah. So hard.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate that. But I guess it's interesting now. We're all adults, and we can see the areas where we haven't done some work in ourselves, and they they manifest in our relationships as if we're still, you know, kids. The dynamics are still quite fixed at times, regard irrespective of our journeys. So it is interesting the dynamics, and you know, I just I think we just thrive in this chaos as a big family, which there's always something, there's always something happening, a fight, someone to love, there's just always something going on. So I I really am grateful for having a big family, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Same. But you know what's funny is like I don't know if I could have that many children. Like, I don't know about being responsible for that many people. Like, no, you know, even thinking about having one child is like a lot. I'm like, I don't know if I want to, you know, like I'm so responsible for this this baby all the time.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, like forever. Yeah, totally. I don't know how they did it. I mean, even the idea, I was having a conversation with my auntie recently, because my partner and I are at the stage where we're contemplating it, and just the notion of like planned parenthood or thinking about your sense of self within the context of being a parent feels like it's a new new thing for our generations. My auntie's just like, well, it's just what we did. We just had lots of kids and um it was just the way it was, and now we can have a different choice, maybe, you know, it look might look a little different. But yeah, it's terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

It's terrifying. That's changed so quickly in like one generation because um I was talking to my sister about it the other day. Like, my little brother's just had his first baby, she's seven months old now. And you know how you like wait to the appropriate time to tell everyone like three months or four months or whatever, you know, just until it's a bit more um yeah, a bit further along in pregnancy. And we were joking about how black fellas, like pretty much you know, straight after conception, you walk out and you're like, Oh, I'm probably gonna be pregnant this weekend. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

The idea like you know, planned parenthood is it's it's kind of funny, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Like Curry Curry Carnival, knock up, that's where the knockout carnival, the idea of yeah, planning ahead or you know, even conceptualizing the future can feel pretty scary as a black baller at times.

unknown 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Oh well, I guess you know, changing gears slightly and and picking up on your your background and your where you're from, you are a storyteller, a writer, a reporter. And when you were working on Triple J, you began to weave a lot of your your own personal history into what you were doing by weaving Gamillaroy language into your reporting. I'm keen to just ask about that process and and maybe if you could tell us why you believe that, yeah, seeing our language or your language in the mainstream discourse is important.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Well, I remember how it happened actually, and it didn't seem like it was that like I knew that it was going to be a great thing to do, but I didn't think it was gonna be like this huge momentous thing. Like we had a um uh like an Indigenous staff meeting we were talking about how on the broadcasts in um New Zealand everyone speaks in Mori, even like the the non-Indigenous newsreaders are like, you know, Ki ora, welcome to the news at 6 p.m. blah blah blah blah blah. And I was like, oh, wouldn't it be so cool if like if we could do that? And then I was like, wait a minute, I could just say it if I want to, like say it on the news tomorrow. And so then I just did, and I just started saying Yama at the beginning of every bulletin, and it was sort of weird to introduce to the audience so abruptly because they were like, Is she speaking in a Jamaican accent saying Yaman? Yeah, right. But and I was like, No, I'm not. Um, like this is what it means, and so then we had to do like a big explainer and all of that sort of stuff to bring them along on the journey with us. But basically, I just thought, like, if we can do it in other places, there's no reason that we can't accommodate that sort of integration in Australia as well. And for the most part, people were so receptive, you know, 99.9%. Um, you're always gonna get people who are upset by things like that. But yeah, it just sort of made sense and felt very natural.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, I remember the first time sort of hearing it, and it sounds so like benign, but just in Australia, you know, because of the ongoing project of the colony, we're so erased and not visible in this landscape, in the the context of parliament and and socially, and so just the like the power of language to cut through all of that to be like, no, you are seen here, like your values are important here. And I it just always it's always so startling when you hear language, especially on a mainstream platform, just to reminder, like, we out here, we are still here, and yeah, how cool that you were just able to mobilize that within Triple J without it, you know, causing too much ruckus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

I guess it was probably pretty brave because like I could have got in trouble. They could have been like, this is not in the style guide, you're not allowed to do whatever you want. This is the national broadcaster, you know, like you have to get approval, whatever. But everyone just sort of went along with it. Yeah, and in the end, it was like a something that was really celebrated, you know. It was, it was, yeah, it was something that we all found like a great deal of pride in in being able to do.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you for clarifying. I guess, you know, in in keeping with some of your professional milestones and the things that you've achieved, I mean, you've got a long list of accolades, and I'm sure you've got some great stories, that's for sure. But I'm curious, I mean, in your in your current role in working in entertainment, you've had, you know, the the privilege of speaking with people like the list is long, but Jennifer Aniston, Brad Pitt, Billy Bob, Thornton, like a whole range of people internationally. I guess what has been your most memorable interview to date and why?

SPEAKER_03 13:33

You know, it's really hard to put like a ranking on them because you know, you get something different out of each one, and sometimes people are in a great mood, and sometimes they're in a not so great mood, you know, like they have to do these junkets that sometimes go for like 10 hours and they're basically sitting in a room talking to people on Zoom, getting asked the same things over and over and over. And so, like, I guess if you get someone on a good day and they're being generous, then you know they're fantastic. But if you get someone when they've just like, you know, maybe their house has been broken into, maybe their partner's broken up with them, maybe, you know, they're hungry or something or tired, then they're not gonna be in as good a mood. But there's one that really stands out for me. Like, I don't know whether it's my favorite, but it's definitely one that I've thought about and has stayed with me. And it was when I interviewed Denzel Washington for a movie that he was doing not last year but the year before. And one of the crew members who I'd spoken to before, so like the producer or something like that, told me that Denzel Washington always has these like sayings or like um like nuggets of wisdom, and they're just like, you know, like phrases or whatever. And he started writing them down because they were so beautiful, and then he kept them and sort of like printed them out and stuck them on his desk or something, and then everyone else like loved them so much that they all asked for copies of this like printout of all of the things that Denzel would say, and then it ended up being circulated throughout the whole like film set, and everyone loved it, and it was like a little booklet full of things that he said. I told him about that, and he didn't know that they were doing it. Wow, and he was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, I do love that. And so then he started saying them to me. Anyway, there were two other really huge stars. Oh, Rami Malik. Yeah, and um, and his name is just escaping me right now, but he's also like an Oscar winner. So we was doing in the interview with the three of them, and he just sort of kept interjecting and saying these things.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I'm getting old uncle vibes.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Exactly. That's why it sort of stayed with me, and so then at the end of the interview, he said to me, Okay, Brooke, I've got one more for you. And he said, You know, when when God says go, he's not pushing you away, he's taking you with him.

unknown 15:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

I was like, I don't really know what that means. Like, I'm gonna have to Google it or something. Yeah, and then I walked outside when I finished the interview to get a coffee from across the road, and then I looked up, and there was a sky rider, and the sky rider had written go in the sky. Stop! Yeah, I walked out after he said that, and I was like, What is this being?

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Wow, Uncle Denzel dropping tooth bombs, manifesting manifesting this in front of your eyes.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

I don't know, like just so weird, like surrender to the flow of it all, like just go with whatever is happening.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

I don't know, I don't know what it means, but I it's kind of whatever you choose to make it mean for you, isn't it? Like an enigma. But how cool. I mean, you know you've um you're influential when it's less about what you do, but you know, what you say, and and people holding on to your your stories. I mean, and to hear that he didn't even know that people had so much admiration for what he was saying, it's beautiful and humbling.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

Well, I think it's a really beautiful man because sometimes you're good at putting that sort of stuff on. Yeah, you can't really tell, you know. Like I'm talking to them for 10 minutes over Zoom. Yeah, you know, they could be banging it on. But then um, later I interviewed Austin Butler. That he did a stage show with Denzel Washington, and he was so impressed by Austin Butler that he went out of his way to got get in contact with Baz Lerman and said to Baz Loman, This kid is your Elvis.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

I'm gonna cast him as this as Elvis, you know, and like for no reason other than that he wanted him to like succeed or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Wow, wow, how powerful. I mean, and just for someone like Denzel to believe in you and back you, that is so so powerful. What a reminder just to you know always put yourself out there because you never know who's listening and watching and where that might might lead. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Denzel might put in a good word for you. You don't know.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Exactly. Oh, I wonder, I mean, if you you probably aren't compelled to share, but is there anyone who ha is been the most interesting interview or someone who you've met that really surprised you? I guess someone who you thought you you had a view of but has really, really surprised you, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah, there's people who surprise me all the time because you're just like this is not at all what I thought your personality was gonna be like.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Jared Leto. That's Jared Leto. So um, for Morbius, that movie, I interviewed Jared Leto and the female lead and a couple of others. And just you know, by pure circumstance, he was the last interview and the other two went before him. I was like, oh, what's it like working with Jared Leto? Like he's a really intense guy, right? Both of them said the exact same thing verbatim. Oh, I didn't work with um Jared Leto, I worked with Dr. Morbius.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Wow. And I'll say what?

SPEAKER_03 18:58

No, like he was in the Jared Leto, like they were like, he doesn't break character, he stays in the character the whole time. And then when I asked him about it, I was like, oh, you know, the others said that they didn't work with you, Jared Leto. They said they worked with Dr. Morbius on this film, and he was like, Oh, that's very kind of them to say.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Wow, so what a professional method acting and then humble in his work, and not even though it was a bit like it was a bit strange.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Like I've never not often that I come across that sort of star.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, wow. Yeah, I imagine there would be a lot of actors that do have to be quite serious and you know, it sort of to develop the sense of mastery, you know, it's a whole personality type that has that level of discipline and um yeah, discipline, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, full on home. Interesting. Wow. I mean, looking back, you know, coming from growing up in a housing commission, I mean, what led you on this path in in film and and television? Yeah, was this always in the crystal ball for you?

SPEAKER_03 20:11

No, I don't think so. I think it's one of those things, you know, you get given opportunities or you pursue something that you really want, or you're good at things that you didn't realise you were good at. And, you know, doors open up and doors close, and sometimes like doors close and it leads you to something else. And then you end up like sort of going down a path that you, you know, you didn't know that was open to you or that you would you didn't sort of expect. But in the sort of thing where I was like, I know exactly what I want to do, I'm gonna do this, and also I think for young black kids, it's like there aren't that many doors that were open to us, you know. You don't sort of think, oh yes, I'm gonna definitely do this or go to university or be this. Like, I remember in school, like genuinely thinking, like, I wonder if I'm the sort of person who will ever go to university or finish school because the expectations of us were so different to those of our classmates, and it's like the whole like it blows my mind applying for uni and being like, Oh, I probably won't get in.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

And because at the time we were like, and even still, it's sort of a statistical anomaly, still, isn't it, to be one of your family or one of your community to choose uni or even have it in your in your crystal ball or have that choice available to you.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah, yeah, to to even know that that's a possibility for you. I think a very new thing for black fellas.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Totally. Yeah. And it's great to see that, you know, we've still got such a long way to go before we have proper and true representation, but it's great to see so many um black fellas on our screens and in our family homes, and and still what I admire the most about people like yourself is still being true to your values. And who you are in a media world, I imagine that would be challenging at times. So yeah, thank you for holding the line and doing this heavy lifting because it's just so nice to see people that look like us and think like us and talk like us on our screens. And yeah, it's just so, so important. Representation matters. So I guess with that in mind, I mean, taking this leap and putting yourself out there can feel pretty confronting at times. I know I feel it too in my business. You know, I work with women and our First Nations communities and, you know, stepping into my own power and starting to be, you know, a bit more front and center is frightening. I'm keen to understand, I mean, in taking this leap and and doing the work that you do, how do you, how do you look after yourself in all of this? Like, what do you practically do to make sure that you are well so that you can provide this service and and do it with love and creativity and passion still? I mean, what are your self-care non-negotiables? What does it look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 23:06

I think you have to start with like your love for yourself and value for your own sense of like health and well-being at the center of everything that you do. Because you can't sort of go headfirst into these big jobs or like have these lofty goals and think like I'm gonna abandon everything that it means to be like you know, fair or good or whatever to myself. Because once you start doing that, you know, like you you just don't there's no longevity in that, you know. You you have to be sort of like rooted in your love for yourself, you know. So then you can like you make sure you eat well, you make sure you're sleeping enough, you know, you don't want to be like drinking all the time, you know, like even like looking at social media too much or comparing yourself to others, all of that stuff is so toxic that really sort of undermine the way that you think about yourself and and your place in the world. It can really warp your perception of like your own growth. So I think it's really, really important to just be quite frank about the boundaries that you have between yourself and the rest of the world, you know, like how much can you give and be sort of brutal about looking after yourself, yeah. Because nobody really is gonna look after you but yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Absolutely, gosh, and that there's a lot to unpack there. I think yeah, you're right, like it is it's an inside job, it all starts there. I think I can imagine anyway that we do a lot of work in black at Black Bottle on on black burnout, this phenomena of you know, so many of us were just plucked from families and communities and the protective factors that make us human and and plunked into factories and workplaces, which you know really don't on the whole share our same values. And I think a lot of the work we do is yeah, but is really unpacking, yeah, who you are and what's important to you. And I think the Achilles heel for black fellas is that so many of our shared values, the things that are important to us as people, are still conditioned and assigned to us. They're not necessarily our own independent values at times, and so yeah, spending that time in working out well, who you are is so is so vital and so often overlooked. I run values workshops and I ask some of the women I work with, they're mostly sister girls, to say, when was the last time you asked yourself about yourself or found some time to inquire about what is important to you? And they look at me like yeah, I'm speaking in another language. The idea that they have the choice or that they're worthy of even just finding out what's important just to them feels so out of their their imagination. So I think it's yeah, yeah. Sorry, no, you go. No, I just think it's cool that yeah, that that you've you you've acknowledged that, that it really starts within and it is doing that work, which means stepping back and looking after yourself along the way.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Well, I think you know, that black burnout stuff is is real, and you know, you want to be able to give everything that you possibly can to to everyone, and you know, like it's part of our DNA to be, you know, communal and and to share our resources and our energy with everyone around us that we love. But I mean, you also have to be able to to provide for yourself, you know, you have to be able to look after yourself, and you don't want to be someone who's so burnt out and so exhausted that then when the weekend does come around, you you just end up getting shitfaced because you, you know, you just need some sort of like reprieve from from that, you know, because that's not a great sort of cycle to get in. And you see it all the time, like people sort of releasing the valve in ways that are really pretty unhealthy. And you know, I think for me, like probably the first couple of years that I my profile started getting like a bit bigger nationally, I really felt like okay, I've got to maximize every opportunity and I've got to be, you know, everything to everyone and do everything that I can. But now I'm like, wait, no, like I've had a pretty tough life. I need to work through. I need to just make sure that I'm looking after myself because you know, we don't have the same sorts of safety nets that other people have. If I'm unable to work or you know, if something falls through, like I'm helping my family, I'm like helping my grandparents and and everyone else. Like, if I don't look after myself, then who's gonna do that?

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

You know, I look to myself to look after myself, but also to the people who rely on me.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Totally. Yeah, and like choosing to to look after yourself and prioritize yourself is a really powerful and brave thing to do. We talk about this a lot at our work too, and um, you know, for us, as you say, like community isn't just a noun, it's a doing word, and there's always gonna be things to do. We all have our roles to play, and I think it's just important that yeah, people who might see you killing it, you know, know that there is also behind the scenes a process where you have to go through that where the little shit matters, like getting some sleep and going for walks and seeing a counselor.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

I think you know, yeah, like all that sort of stuff that makes you feel like grounded and you know, like you have a sense of belonging and in everything, you know, like that sort of stuff is important.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Totally, totally, yeah. And I think I was reading in an article that you wrote, I think around this concept of you know, looking after yourself, and I wanted to, I guess, scratch a bit deeper if I could. In a in a vogue interview in 2021, you said, um, I think making a home in yourself is one of the best things you can do as you get older and become a bit more unpredictable. I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more about what you you mean with that in light of what we're just talking about with with self-care and and looking after yourself.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Well, you know, like when I say unpredictable, I mean, you know, the fact that we're in the middle of a pandemic. That, you know, it it always seems like there are these huge conversations that are going on about black fellows, whether it's, you know, uh discussions around voice or treaty or deaths in custody or you know, youth crime or something, these big, huge things that are out of our control we feel, you know, like intimately connected to and that do have an impact sort of on our souls. It's really, really important that you have somewhere that you can feel you can return to that feels like safe and secure and that that reminds you of like where you are and where you've come from. And so, you know, when I talk about making a home inside yourself, it is that stuff that you were talking about, like learning about things that you like, learning about also the things that you don't like, so then you don't have to do them or be around them.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Having like appropriate boundaries when it comes to like your energy around things, you know, you don't have to do things that you really that are upsetting to you or that you don't like. You don't have to be around people who are, you know, abrasive or who are difficult, you know. And you know, so for me, the things that make me feel grounded and allow me to sort of like return to myself and feel at home in my own skin, they're really simple things. It is like doing the washing, it's like making sure that I have like um food that I can eat that's quite nourishing, being able to like paint my fingernails or do a face mask, or you know, all of that sort of stuff where you're like, oh no, like I'm calm, this is where I am, this is who I am, this is what I like. Like a walk or something.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

You know, because you don't want to be well for me, and I don't want to give others advice, I don't feel like myself when I'm completely untethered and not connected to anything, you know, like when to a community or like an ecosystem. So to be able to like come back to everything that you know is real and and and comforting is so important for me at least.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yeah. And I imagine you would have to be a part of your woo-woo. No, it makes total sense. I think often what I see in this kind of wellness self-care space is that there is sort of this emphasis at times on the self, which we often, you know, we heal in relation to one another. So doing things in communities really where we as humans evolve. But that there is also this like emphasis on like the grandiose things that you do. And yeah, I think it's just debunking this sort of notion that, yeah, it's it's the little acts of love and kindness or the you know, the kindness of in the meta stories you're telling yourself at least that you do on a regular basis that matters.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Um, like you know, we you have to trust in the wisdom of the things that we've been taught. Like all of this new age sort of wellness stuff. Yeah, like I'm guilty, I indulge in all of it, you know. I love a good inference on or I love it, you know, yes, acupunctural, you know, not that that's new age, but you know what I mean. Like I love that sort of stuff. But I think when it comes to like nourishment, you know the things that make you feel good. It's like eating lovely food that you make yourself with lots of veggies, like curried sausages or something. That is a good thing to do for yourself, and or like making sure you get enough sleep. You know, don't go to bed at like three o'clock in the morning if you know you have to get up at nine. Yeah, it won't be good for you, you know. Yeah, go to bed at nine or ten. It's it's that sort of stuff that's not it's not like you're not participating in like a new part of capitalism or whatever. Yourself, you're doing the things that you know are right and good for you.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yeah, I love that. So simple, but so so bleedingly obvious, isn't it? I guess what I'm hearing from you in to sort of summarize this is yeah, maybe find the time or or invest in the time to get to know who you are and the the see the the changes and seasons of you which will evolve, and also find some time to work out what your self-nourishment looks like and commit to actually doing the things, really.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

And don't be about not being able to participate in the things that are like more bougie because self-care can be just looking after yourself, it doesn't have to be like self-care.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Totally, exactly. And I I this comes up a lot in my practice as well, is this belief, especially with the work First Nations women I work with, that that self-care or well-being belongs to other people, not me, that I'm I'm still not really worthy of it. It's like I know it's important, but I that's not for me. And yeah, I think when you it looks so different for everyone that it's okay for you to have a bougie practice as well. Like there's no one way to be a black fella, and there's no one way to look after yourself. And I think it's important that yeah, you just do what you want to do, boo, like whatever that looks like. I was chatting with um Dr. Anita Heiss a while ago, and she's saying, Well, I just want to be out in a five-star hotel and get my nails done. I don't can't be out in front of the stars, this isn't for me, and um, and I'm, you know, that's just me and my blackness, and that's what it looks like. And so these things are available to all of us, however they look. So yeah, I guess, you know, keeping, I mean, or I guess sort of thinking a little bit about you, I guess more so personally now, and thinking about, you know, who you are. You describe, I was reading an article where you describe yourself as being soft, lighthearted, and very sensitive. I could really relate to that as well. I'm I think I'm a really sensitive person who wears my heart on my sleeve, and I'm actually coming into that about it's okay for me to um be strong and opinionated, but also quite soft and sensitive, and I'm quite malleable. And so those words really stuck to me. But I'm wondering how do you think the people in your life would describe you? Do they share those same sentiments?

SPEAKER_03 35:28

I don't know. I think sometimes that that would definitely be the case, but then sometimes, you know, because I've come so far in my career, you know, from being at uni or whatever, um, that people sometimes are like, oh, it's really intimidating, the stuff that you do or whatever. And so I that sort of stuff is more difficult for me to get my head around than you know, when people echo that the same things that I'm saying. That to me is more challenging. Like when you were saying before, like, oh, I was really nervous. I'm like, why?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Because you are an icon, it's nerve-wracking. I know, I hear you though, about you know, yeah, like when people have a view of you that you're snow, yeah, you're no better than or you're the same, you're one of us, you know, we're all at the same level. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

I think if like you asked my siblings how they thought of me, I think it would be like like short footed and like steady and reliable and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Very, yeah, like very sensitive and quite soft.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah. So I guess with that, you know, when you say, you know, that you're you describe yourself as being soft and and lighthearted and sensitive, I mean, how do you um compartmentalize that and put that to the side to do, I guess, your job? Are there days where those those personality traits aren't or aren't conducive for being on media, I guess? You know, I feel like um how do you how do you decompartmentalize and not take it all on with your personality?

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Really difficult stories and things like that. Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

I I don't think I do compartmentalize it. I think it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

And so I think sometimes like being able to access your emotions easily and being quite sensitive is something that's really useful for Breakfast TV. We're gonna be all like laughing and having a joke at something silly that's happened, or someone said the wrong thing accidentally, or there's like a rude joke or something. And you know, it's really easy for me to access joy. I love it. I was always being a bit silly and having a lot of fun. But then, if you know, in the next break we're talking about kids in Syria who are orphaned because their parents are buried under rubble, like it's really hard. You cry and you just sort of express yourself. I think part of it for me is like I'm sensitive, but I can easily express my emotions and I can like name them and move through them. I think if you're sensitive and you try to like shut everything out or shut everything down, um, it can be really that can be really hard around feeling everything and saying nothing. If I see something like a friend speaking to another friend meanly, or like a man speaking to a woman in a bad way, I'm really sensitive, but I think I'm pretty brave as well. So don't do that, that's not good. Oh and so I'm scared of everything, but I just do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think you're right, like saying um what a superpower it is to not only express your emotions, name them, move through them. I think in our worlds we're told to, you know, shrink and contort and shut it down and bottle it up and you know, not deal with really what we're feeling. And so, yeah, pushing who that is a really courageous thing, and it's um it probably is a testament to to your practice and how you how you show up in the world and on our screens by having done this inner work around your inner knowing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

So it's like, you know, that doesn't mean that that's always a really positive thing. I think when I'm like I'm like giving myself a pat on the back, you know, like sometimes it leads to pretty awkward situations or conversations, like it's toys, like a breeze, you know, like saying what you mean all the time. It's it's a difficult thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the the worst thing about feelings is like you actually have to feel them, like they're actually things that you're you're doing, and yeah, you're right, like having the access to being able to set set a boundary doesn't mean it's not going to create a huge amount of discomfort as you're actually doing the thing. Yeah. Um, yeah, we're we're we're deeply feeling creatures who sometimes think. And so, yeah, I think it's interesting to hear you say that and just yeah, interesting to hear how it shows up. I guess with that in mind, too, speaking of some of the stuff or the sentiments you've shared publicly, you did an article on grief that I want to touch on because as I I mentioned, you know, grief feels a little too familiar for our family and many black fellas um of the last few years, particularly. And it's just such a honest and confusing emotion, and it can really create this onslaught of compounding feelings. But you introduced a concept to me that I would love to unpack, and it's something I've been thinking about, but I couldn't quite find the words. And you wrote that maybe the most painful part of grief is to hold on to it on your own. And if love is something that you do with others, maybe grief should be as well. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on what these concepts mean to you to heal grief in in community.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

If you meet someone that you think is just so fantastic and you're falling in love, and you sort of you really want to tell everyone about it and describe every second of it to your best friend and say, like, oh my gosh, this is what happened, and then this happened, and then can you believe it? Like, now we're at this stage and it's so lovely and so wonderful. Or like if someone has a baby, then like sharing the news around pregnancy is like the most exciting thing. Or if someone gets married, you know, everyone's there and it's so wonderful to share in their love. Like, quite often with grief, the part it's really uncomfortable, and so much of it is like unnamable, or you know, there aren't any words for it, or or whatever. I feel like we just don't have the language for it because we don't talk about it enough. It's something that is inevitable, like we're all gonna die. Yeah, there's nothing that's gonna happen that's gonna prevent that. Everything that exists right now will cease to exist one day.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

And so rather than like avoid the idea of that, like I think we should just get a little bit more comfortable with sharing that process with others because it would mean that the burden of carrying it wouldn't be so um heavy. You know, like imagine if you could call your mum or your best friend or your partner and talk to them with the same sort of enthusiasm, not positively, maybe positively, I don't know, depending on what what sort of thing you're sharing, about um a memory that you have of some something or someone that you love, and talk about it in a way that's like not shameful because I think grief is quite shameful, like you're like, oh, I should be getting through this or I should be over it, you know. Like um, I lost both of my dogs last year and I had them both for like 14 years. And the other day, like last weekend, I just was like, I think I was reading or something, and I thought, oh my god, they're little souls, like I know what their personalities are because I was with them every day. And I'll never ever get to be around them ever again. Like they're just gone. I don't know. Like, I hope that there's a heaven or something to see them again sometime, but for right now, for the rest of my life, I'll never get to be around them ever again. Just burst into tears, and it's been like for a year since I lost my the first one. I don't know, like it's not like I did anything to bring that on, it's just part of like grief. I mean, I'm sure that must happen so much more when it's you know, a human being able to talk to that, but I don't know, like it's it's not like I would share that with the same level of openness or comfort as I would like, oh my gosh, I got this message from this guy that I'm dating, or like this is what's going on in my job. It's super exciting. Yeah, it is something that you do on your own, and it's it shouldn't be like that because we all go through it.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yeah, totally. Totally. It's it's it's such a weird thing as humans that the inevitable, our mortality is just still so uncomfortable for us to access or to discuss. And yeah, that it it it it almost it's just such a confusing, a confusing emotion. And like you say, when you're doing it in isolation, you're carrying around this shame or this guilt. Yeah, I think this idea of getting better at talking about what loss means for us and what it really means is important conversations for communities to have.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

But also like each iteration of it, like being able to unpack it, I think it would make it easier to move through it because then you wouldn't be like, Oh, I can't cry when I'm at work, or I can't cry when I'm on the train, or whatever. Like, oh, I can't feel like this right now, so I'm just gonna ignore it and hope that it goes away. It doesn't go away, it just goes somewhere else in your body or in your like we should be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

I don't know. Like, yeah, and I think sharing it as as as new things and feelings emerge, it's not this linear process. I remember like with mom, you know, they kind of got this point where I had to say to myself, Well, how long can I keep sharing her around? Because when when when when will it feel like I'm just absorbing all of the energy in the room with sadness? And when people like, does this have an expiration date of how long I can be talking about her? And I remember saying, No, like I'm gonna continue to talk about her and keep sharing parts of her, but yeah, how do you get better at these various stages as you're working it through about creating more space for people to yeah, speak about it? It's just such a complex, messy process, and so yeah, being able to talk about it as you navigate it is so important.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

And I think it's complex and messy for everyone, yeah. But nobody talks about it. Like when I was trying to, when I was researching that article and I was looking up grief, there's actually not a lot of information around how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

No, and it's interesting too, because there's like different cultures have different relationships with grief as well. Like our um like Western ideals is like one service, it's generally quite sad. Some cultures have, you know, some even First Nations cultures I think still have like seven days, ten days. Each day might be a different um phase of that process. It's not just binary, like they're here and then they're not. There's a process of them um going back to the land and back into the dreaming. And yeah, different cultures definitely look at it in different ways. But I think this dominant view of death is that it doesn't exist until it does, and then this notion that you're meant to just zoom through a process of grief that's convenient for everyone so you can get on with your life is just quite arcadic, really.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

I think the thing is as well, is like when you have a loss that's great, like something that you really love, things change in ways that you don't expect, and you're like different in ways that you didn't expect. It's not like you know, it's a guess who game, and then that person's picture is just down and you don't see them again. It's like the whole board is like shifted and you're playing a different game now, like you are forever affected in a way that you aren't expecting, and I think even sort of coming to terms with that yourself is like it's quite weird because now, and I don't look, I don't want to speak for you, but now you're a woman whose mum isn't here anymore, and that's different from what you were a year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Totally, yeah, just completely absolutely, and I think that's a really I think one of the things that I've found is yeah, like the inherent grief and loss that you have with parts of yourself as well, that you feel almost selfish or foolish to think about because it's always about that person and their life, and you know, in our case, mum was really sick, and so we had to sort of make sense of her her her state of health. But I I felt almost selfish having my own feeling, and yeah, this whole process of grief for me is literally about like losing yourself, finding yourself losing yourself, finding yourself like sprouting up somewhere else with a totally different yeah, makeup of who you are and just continuing this cycle. So yeah, I certainly didn't think getting you on the podcast, I'd be talking to you about grief, that's for sure. But I I do I do love this conversation because I think it's you know, a lot of the our listeners are First Nations, mostly women. Um, we do have international guests as well, but I think just to scratch the surface on who you are and what's important to you and yeah, to learn more about you is is nice. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

Thank you so much for having me. I have had the loveliest time chatting to you.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

I hope no, thank you. I really appreciate your time and yeah, can't wait to see what 2023 has in store for you.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Oh my gosh, I feel like it's gonna be a big year. I know.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

I feel like we're running already and it's February. So totally it's hopefully you can find some ways to yeah, slow down and do the things like the washing and the good foods and the things that fill you up.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Oh well, hopefully we get shock again soon. Take care. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Thank you so much for listening, you mob. If you are vibing this season of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from to show us some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give us some feedback by visiting www dot carolinecal.com.