Welcome to Season 3! Grab your juice and cozy up with the CrimeJuicy girls as we pick apart the deeply taboo topic of necrophilia. Turns out, it may be more prevalent than one would suspect.
**
This episode was produced with support from our friends at Old Timey Crimey, a fine vintage of a true crime podcast focusing on crimes that occurred before the 1950s. Check them out anywhere you get your podcasts!
Welcome to Season 3! Grab your juice and cozy up with the CrimeJuicy girls as we pick apart the deeply taboo topic of necrophilia. Turns out, it may be more prevalent than one would suspect.
**
This episode was produced with support from our friends at Old Timey Crimey, a fine vintage of a true crime podcast focusing on crimes that occurred before the 1950s. Check them out anywhere you get your podcasts!
Best of Necrophilia
Carrie Anne: [00:00:00]
I'm Carrie Anne. Welcome to CrimeJuicy.
Becca: I'm Becca.
Krista: And I'm Krista
Carrie Anne: Tonight, we're going to be talking about the best of necrophilia. And we're just going to go, Becca.
Becca: This actually came up in the first season and then the second season, we got to wait until the third season till we bust out the necrophilia. One thing I do want to say before we get involved or into it…
Krista: Get involved…
Becca: Get involved, romantically, sexually or otherwise. A lot of the sources that I've been looking at reference a study done in the 1980s, 1989. There's not a lot of new information, I dunno, I guess no one's to learn about necrophilia, whatever. And I've also noticed too, a lot of the podcasts I listen to, I love them. I had a really great time. I thought it was really interesting that a lot of people were, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. Really, you just talked about Jeffrey Dahmer drilling holes into people's brains, and filling them with acid and fucking a corpse that was already dead is the worst thing you've ever heard? It's interesting that necrophilia is such a taboo topic, even though way worse things happen to living people.
Carrie Anne: A lot of the focus is on homicidal necrophilia, which is only a very small part of necrophilia.
Becca: We're going to just tear the shit apart and see what we find. Necrophilia, the term was coined in 1850. Merriam Webster's dictionary defines it as obsession with, and usually erotic interest in or stimulation by a corpse.
Krista: Can we just say that that doesn't mean necessarily actual intercourse? It's not always intercourse.
Becca: No. It's not always, even in an erotic interest.
The American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual defines it as recurrent intense sexual interest in corpses that interferes with your day-to-day life. If it’s getting in the way your life, then maybe you’re a necrophiliac.
Krista: Well, wouldn’t you say that for just like anything? If your need to eat french fries all day is getting in the way of doing things or you're, being a drug addict. That gets in the way of doing things. You could say it's an emotional addiction?
Becca: That's when it ends up in the DSM. It ends up in the DSM when it starts interfering with your life, because you're so preoccupied with all them corpses. According to a 2016 study, and again, this has not been studied much. It said zero to 5% of the total population falls somewhere within the necrophilia classification.
Carrie Anne: Zero to five is a pretty wide range.
Becca: When you're looking towards zero, you're like not many people, but once you get up into 5%, it's every 20 people you look at is some sorta, I don't know, maybe that corpse has given me the eye or something like that. That's pretty significant range. I don't know really what to do with that statistic.
Krista: That's a little unsettling considering, so any job you interact with a lot of people, but let's just take service industry. In a broad spectrum. Cause that's a huge, huge part of our population. I may be probably see on a busy day at work, no less than a hundred people.
Becca: That was a lot of necrophiliacs.
Krista: Next time I go to the amusement park, I'm going to be counting and I'm going to be, oh, you're the yep. You there there's one. It's splorching.
Becca: I was just thinking about splorching. It's splorch, splorch, necrophile, splorch, splorch, neckrophile. Necrophile splorch.
When interviewed by Apocalypse Culture, Karen Greenlee, who we'll get into later, because she is probably my favorite necrophiliac at this point. She said, it's way more common in morgues and funeral homes than were reported. And then she went on to cite all of the times that she personally was caught breaking into these places to make passionate love to the dead.
Carrie Anne: But she was never reported because the establishment didn't want to freak people out.
Becca: She was, oh, it's way more common than you think - I do it all the time.
Krista: You think you'd lose business if, oh, you're supposed to keep the body safe because, for the living, it's more of a ritual than it is for the dead. I'm not saying that this is not a victimless crime.
Becca: Well, it was interesting cause in one of the podcasts I listened to, which I would highly recommend it's the Human Monsters necrophilia episode. They had a kind of similar title where it was At Last: Necrophilia. Cause they probably really wanted to talk about it too. At the end they did an interview with a necrophiliac who was also a woman. She got caught breaking into a ton of mausoleums cause her deal was, she would seduce the corpse to call forth the spirit of death to make love to. And they're, well also how often does it work then? She said she successfully seduces a corpse 75% of the time.
Krista: She is the third type of a necrophiliac, a fan… No, she's not a…
Carrie Anne: We need to go through the list. We need to go through the list.
Becca: The thing about her was so in the course of the interview, they were all , oh my God, oh my God. That corpse wanting to be left alone and blah, blah, blah. And then one of the guys was, I don't know, I mean either cremate or you know, I don't really care what you do once I'm dead. And the necrophiliac lady was like, see, see, I got you. And he was, oh shit, she's going to try to fuck me. Or, yeah.
Krista: And I guess I listened to, I listened to that one too and their whole thing was all, well, there's no consent. How - do they give you this consent before they die? She's like, I don't know, half of these people, I don't know any of these people because their spirit has left their body. Therefore it is just there. That was her logic.
Becca: So all necrophile sources were hearkening back to this 1989 study of over 120 cases of necrophilia by Rozman and Resnick. It seems pretty dated again, apparently people aren't so keen on studying necrophiliacs. The study divided cases into genuine necrophiles – those who have an ongoing attraction to the dead, regardless of circumstance and pseudonecrophiles - those who don't have an ongoing drive, but are more opportunistic. This informed their findings. Of all necrophiles 92% were males.
Carrie Anne: Which leaves only 8% being female.
Becca: From these cases, they theorized that necrophilia was caused by low self-esteem, fear of rejection, fear of the dead, which they coped with by sexualizing it. Which is my first necrophiliac affirmation of the episode. Fuck your fear. The fourth one was after encountering the dead, they realized they were aroused. Of genuine necrophiles in the study, 57% had regular access to corpses due to the nature of their job, which I think begs the question of whether they sought out such jobs because of their attraction to the dead, or if they're actually pseudonecrophiles that are around dead bodies a lot.
Krista: Or they work secretly and sell the time. They pimp out the dead bodies. But that does happen. I mean, we all saw, we all saw Kill Bill. I know that she was in a coma, but essentially there's same thing.
Becca: Ooh. So, 68% of genuine necrophiles reported that they were aroused by an extremely submissive partner. Necrophilia, like actual intercourse with the dead has also been classified as extreme cooperation. It's funny, 21% said they were motivated by the desire to reunite with the deceased lover. 15% said they were motivated by loneliness. 85% were not lonely. 12% were motivated by the desire to wield power over the corpse. This next one, I found a really interesting that of genuine necrophiles and these are people that experience and ongoing attraction in some way to doing this, it's not an opportunistic thing - only 15% reported that they were actually motivated by a sexual attraction to the corpse. I think that's a really interesting component to all of this that kind of turns classic conceptions of necrophilia on its head and makes this discussion a lot more interesting. Nearly half of all genuine, necrophiles have a personality disorder, 11% of those are psychopathic.
Carrie Anne: It's pretty rare to find a pack of psychopaths like that.
Becca: That is a significant number of psychopaths.
Krista: Hand in hand. I mean, like you said, some personality disorder that's…
Becca: Yes…but the most commonly reported motive for all necrophiliacs is they wanted to possess an unresisting and unrejecting partner.
Carrie Anne: What was that one guy that was it Coriander? He said that the Greek tyrant had defiled the corpse of his wife, and he said he baked his bread in a cold oven. My wife after she was dead, cause you couldn't have her in life.
Krista: Mean, I'm sure there were even more choice words in that conversation as well. That's probably the tame version, no matter how you take it.
Carrie Anne: There's an early law that goes back to the Hittites from the early sixth century BC through the 13th century BC. And it supposedly allowed sex with the dead and it's on Sumerian cuneiform.
Becca: Oh, the Sumerians are kinky.
Krista: Yeah.
Carrie Anne: Cold packing was allowed.
Krista: Officially, because the study from the 1989, right. There are 10 classes. There's the role-players right. And those are those who just pretend, just - it's a scene, we'll say that.
Becca: Pretending their partner is dead.
Krista: Or paying a prostitute to lay in a tub and get so cold that they can barely move type of situation. Which is probably, I bet if we talked to an escort should I say what's the, proper way to say it? I feel sex workers isn't that great.
Becca: Sex worker, I think, is the sex worker. I was about say consensual touch consultant, but I think that's what professional cuddlers are called.
Krista: Yeah…
Becca: That was an interesting thing to run by our friends at SWOP.
Krista: We'll go with sex workers now. I'm sure if we talked to some, we'd probably hear at least one or two of those stories that has to be something. And then romantic necrophiliac, which if you look up Carl Tanzler, he was in the 1950s or so he had this dream when he was a young man about falling in love with a dark haired, exotic woman. He had already been married, but then he found this he found his, his woman and he fell in love with her. She had tuberculosis. He was a doctor of some sort, but he was from Germany and really wasn't a doctor. Weirdness. His story is a little broken because he was an [00:10:00] immigrant. There's some broken things where apparently he was a doctor in Germany, but not here in America, but pretended to be a doctor and did all sorts of different things.
He fell in love with his exotic dark haired woman. She had tuberculosis and he took care of her. When she passed away, he had a mausoleum built for her. Yes. No one knew he had a key, but there was a key. He'd go and visit her until finally he just couldn't bear to leave her there and he brought her home.
This goes on, I think he had her in her home for at least two or three years before anybody found out. But it was revered as this undying love story and he just couldn't live without the love of his life. He had to bring her home. Well, in the course of that time of him bringing her home, he made like a face mask for her because her face was so decomposed.
Carrie Anne: I remember this one now.
Krista: And then as, as more and more stuff came out, he constructed this paper tube with wax so could have intercourse with her dead body. But first everyone was, oh, that's just so sweet. And oh, he couldn't live without her, but then it just started coming out more and more that he was having sex with her. But that, I would say that he falls under a romantic.
Becca: That sounds romantic to me – that, the romantic classification.
Krista: I feel that, that, that fits, right? Yeah. It's, that's
Carrie Anne: It’s that’s Poe. I mean, I don’t think Poe did any of that, but…
Krista: I'm sure if he got drunk enough, he would.
Becca: Yeah. Then we got category three and necrophiliac fantasizers. They fantasize about about fucking corpses, but they don't actually do it.
Krista: There’s tons of those. If you're into autoerotic asphyxiation, there's a movie called it's an Asian movie and it's about this prostitute who falls in love with this hotel owner. And then she becomes his maid. He leaves his wife for her, but they find out that the only way that she can orgasm is if she, she chokes him. So autoerotic asphyxiation, chokes him to death, continues to have sex with him. And then at the end, she severs his member and proceeds to keep it as, like her thing, and writes..his body.
Becca: Yeah. Wow.
Krista: This was a movie from 1978.
Becca: They're everywhere. Well, we'll get into this later, but a necrophilia is all around us in pop culture.
Krista: It's awful. Yeah.
Becca: Number four is tactile necrophiliacs. They do everything but intercourse to a corpse. And there is a yeah, we're going back to Russia for an example of this. Everything to a corpse does not necessarily mean sexual. Anatoly Moskvin. He is known as the, the Dollmaker. At the time of his arrest, he was well-known in academic circles he had a PhD, he was extremely knowledgeable about cemeteries. He called himself…what is it - a necropolist like just super knowledgeable about cemeteries. He was arrested in 2011. His apartment was rated where the corpses of 29 girls and women ages three to 25 were found essentially mummified and turned into dolls, stuffed with rags caked, with makeup. They had masks, they had doll faces. One of them had a teddy bear face and they were very well taken care of. One of them he'd had nine years. In the lead up to his arrest, which happened because he was seen by surveillance, he was actually asked by local police to aid in the investigation of a rash of cemetery desecrations because he was notoriously knowledgeable about graveyards and cemeteries. This guy could help us.
I've heard varying things from different sources. Some people, he shared this apartment with his parents. Some said his parents came and visited and we like, I don’t know just thought he liked making dolls. He was friends with dollmakers. Either way, like his parents either lived there or had been there and seeing the 29 dolls in this apartment. Some of them were in the garage because he, they displeased him in some way so they were sent to the garage until they had like an attitude adjustment. He put music boxes inside of some of them so they can sing to him. But they'd watch movies together. He'd throw birthday parties for them. Even the ones in the garage were invited to the birthday parties. So yeah, he, he never fucked or abused them. He took care of them and he saw it as adoption because he felt that their families had abandoned them. And he also thought that science would somehow figure out how to reanimate them someday.
Eventually he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but Moskvin said that his fascination with the dead started when he was 13, when he was brought into a funeral for an 11-year-old girl. The girl's mother placed rings on both his and the dead girl's fingers and asked him to kiss her. And he said that, that he formed a bond with this dead girl and felt drawn to care for her and care for the dead. Apparently this post-mortem marriage isn't as uncommon of a practice as it sounded to me, at least when I first heard it. He became deeply fascinated with and drawn and connected to the dead. Everything but sex, but he saw these as adoptions.
Krista: I suppose.
Carrie Anne: I really liked how he said that the families, he felt like the family abandon them for the justification. I thought that that was, I mean, you could really get into that deep, if you were a schizophrenic and your, your psychopathy is going off.
Becca: Yeah. I thought he was an interesting case and, that would be a, what is it? A tactile necrophiliac.
Carrie Anne: I looked at one of his papers. He can write. He was talking about something that cemeteries in some St Petersburg. I just scanned it. I was like, wow. He could write.
Krista: Hmm. Interesting. That's, he just wanted friends.
Becca: There's worst things he could have done to get friends.
Carrie Anne: That's a good point. That's a good point.
Becca: Didn't murder any of them.
Krista: I mean, wouldn't Ed Gein fall under that a little bit.
Becca: I think so actually thought about it.
Krista: We don't really know if he had sex with them or not. I don't think that man understood what sex was or human anatomy is. I think he knew the basics, but I don't think he would have known what to do. Alive or dead. But he made some awesome bowls.
Becca: Right, Ed Gein bowls!
Krista: And some, some lamp shades. I mean, come on.
Carrie Anne: I like the lampshades.
Krista: Yes, but I feel like it would cast off a nice yellow, like a nice warm light.
Carrie Anne: Yeah. It probably would be very…
Krista: Oh, my God, that's awful. Never. Oh…
Becca: We’re just getting halfway through. We're at number five for fetishistic necrophiliacs, who remove parts of the course to masturbate with them, but never used the full corpse, or those that remove things from – if you die with the tampon in a fetishistic necrophiliac would take the tampon out and be, aha. It's mine now!
Carrie Anne: That's so nasty. I mean, come on. I mean, that was the weirdest thing to me. I'm taking your tampon, and we worry so much about what boys think.
Krista: I don't know. I don't know. That's so…
Becca: If they took this it's my…
Carrie Anne: It’s mine now!
Becca: They could use it as a shot glass.
Krista: So back to Russia – Andrei Romanovich
Becca: We apologize, Russia.
Krista: Andrei Romanovich Chikatilo would remove the female genitalia and he would rape and molest and also eat them. He was a Russian serial killer that they continued to let be a teacher. And his main target was young children. That's a whole other thing. He was a take parts and pleasure.
Becca: Yeah, I think we're going to get to the homicidal necrophiliac in a bit, but there's a lot of overlap where it's, putting homicidal necrophilia acts in their own, seems like you could kind of check several off of the list if you..
Krista: Exactly.
Becca: If you fantasize about removing parts.
Krista: Well, exactly. Cause he can't take apart away from a live person. I mean, he could, they would eventually die anyways, but…
Becca: I beg to differ.
Carrie Anne: It's something that you can do with a dead person that you cannot do with a live person. It is a, a thing that you can do that's not possible.
Becca: They cannot reject.
Krista: We can't tell, and if you don't like the screaming, then you just avoid all of that.
Becca: Speaking of mutilating corpses, the next one, level six is necromutilomaniacs. And these people impress me because they masturbate while mutilating a corpse, which sounds like a lot of multitasking.
Krista: Yeah. If you're using sharp things and masturbating. It’s frying bacon naked. You're going to hurt yourself.
Carrie Anne: I bet they do. I'm sure they do.
Krista: But that's probably part of it too.
Carrie Anne: It might be part of it. Yeah. I'm thinking that might be part of it. The risk, the risk.
Krista: Do you think the Russian couple did that too?
Carrie Anne: Oh..
Krista: Do they? It would be laying in bed with them?
Becca: We got our threesome
Carrie Anne: Pop it's eye out.
Krista: Hey, hey you got, you got entertainment and a snack.
Becca: Maybe we'll break the rules. Just this once, tee hee hee we're so bad.
Krista: We're going to hell. If there is a hell.
Becca: Which leads me to number seven, which is opportunistic necrophiliacs. And these are people that don't necessarily, they don't seek out the opportunity to necrophilize, but, if the right corpse comes along and the opportunity presents itself, they won’t say no.
Krista: Or if you’re fucking and he dies. Some guys are, I'd love to go out that way.
Carrie Anne: In Egypt, back in the day, if you were a beautiful girl, you got left outside for three or four days first before you got embalmed to discourage necrophiliacs.
Becca: Gary Ridgeway would not have given a fuck.
Krista: No, he would have been all up on it all up on it. Oh, could you imagined? Didn’t he marry that woman? Oh, could you imagine? Oh, know your own love if you're not going to [00:20:00] use a goddamn glove. And even in that situation I would, I would have unallowed myself if I found out that I was sharing my husband with a dead person. I don't care how many showers he took.
Becca: Aren’t there like specific isn't there a STD that's specific corpse fucking?
Krista: We need to find this out because, cause that's a, that's not a need to know.
Becca: Yes, it is. So level nine is homicidal necrophiliac. Oh no, no number eight. Sorry. Can't can't miss those number eight are regular necrophiliacs. And they just are people that prefer to have sex with the dead over the living. It's not an exclusive thing, but they just, if they had their pick they'd fuck a dead person. Number…
Krista: Wouldn't you say a serial killer is also some serial killers are operated opportunistic as well?
Becca: Actually a sub- Homicidal necrophiliac are level nine, other those who murder in order to have sex with their corpse. And these are actually broken down into sub-categories, and the sub-categories are based on whether the perp destroys or preserves the corpse, whether they fuck the corpse while it's still warm or come back later for when it's cold. Whether they impulsively fuck corpses as a form of lashing out, whether they just dabble a necrophilia like the Night Stalker or if it's their thing, and whether or not vampirism or cannibalism is involves like Mr. Albert Fish.
Carrie Anne: They’ve got it all broken down because they need to know.
Becca: Yeah, one homicidal necrophiliac than I thought was interesting was the Hong Kong Butcher, Lam Kor-wan. He was a cab driver who targeted females who were alone, he'd subdue and murder them and then keep their vaginas in Tupperware containers. So he had all these vages and he was arrested in 1982 when he tried to get photos of his dismembered victims developed at a local Kodak shop. And that reminded me of the Baksheevs. He’s like, I had to take pictures.
Carrie Anne: I needed them.
Becca: And then finally there's exclusive necrophiles or necrophiliacs. And these are people that only have sex with the dead and they just can't make it happen for the living.
Krista: You can't look up STDs from having sex with dead people. It just goes to can you have, what can you get? What kind of STDs there are, but not specifically the dead people.
Carrie Anne: Well, I'm sure that something that is like the clap or gonorrhea you can get for a few days, but I think there's a mold fungus one is what we're looking for that that could go for a minute, not just a couple of days, like the clap. Have you guys heard of moche pots? Down in Peru, those beautiful pots that they have that are really naughty. Have you heard of those? Well, they've got them with necrophilia portrayed on these moche pots. Most moche pots are hidden in museums, they’re so naughty. They're beautiful. There's a big age range with moche pots.
Becca: Oh, first eighth century artifacts.
Carrie Anne: The most common necrophilia act portrayed on these pots are of a man who's just a skeleton and a supine woman in front of him beaten off his, there's not a bone in your dick, but in this one, there is, and their masterpiece and there, and it's masturbate and that's the most common necrophilia them on those moche pots. They talk about all sex. Sex with dogs, sex, with, whatever, some of these are, yeah, just incredible. Incredible. So the age range is what, 100 to 800 BC. I mean, there, they were making them for a second.
Becca: First eighth century.
Carrie Anne: You can't just like at a museum most of the time, because they're too naughty because of kids. You have to, you're going to have to call your local, whatever and say, Hey, you got any moche pots? I want to see some in the back. I'm going to write an article or some, they have to let you in. Tell them you're going to write something. Okay.
Krista: Ooh. I want to go see some porno pots.
Becca: We’re here for the ancient porn.
Krista: I'm here for what everybody shames.
Becca: They're like in stalls, like in sex shops. And there's a little hole in the wall next to the moche pots.
Krista: Oh my God.
Becca: There’s a whole glory hole moche pot area of the museum that they like only let you into if you're doing research.
Carrie Anne: I'm doing research on these rocks and these old ladies in Utah, Utah Natural History Museum, go, come here, come here. Let's, let's show you this. So I'm looking at their rocks, their portable rocks, and they bring out this one. And they're , they're saying that this is a motto. Now a motto is something that you grind corn with. It's kind of got the rough edges or whatever. I grab it. It's this tall, this long. It's so smooth. I'm looking at this old lady. I'm like, this is not a motto. They have a bunch of, A bunch of old rock dildos.
Krista: Hey, as long as they were smooth, they're pretty sanitary.
Carrie Anne: Yeah. and they were pretty, really pretty agate and stuff. I'm, wow. Some had knobs.
Becca: I love the bumpy ones. Then legalities, it's less illegal than you think. It's kind of like cannibalism in the US, it's not federally illegal, but in most states it's a felony and a misdemeanor. In California, necrophilia wasn’t illegal until Arnold Schwartzenegger put an end to all that. And apparently it's not illegal in North Carolina. It’s only a misdemeanor in Minnesota.
Krista: Well then they slap you with like defiling a corpse? I guess that would be defiantly a corpse. Ooh, one in 20, Minnesota. I'm counting.
Becca: And then in the animal kingdom - not just humans - it's been observed in penguins, snow geese, garter snakes, black and white teagu lizards, frogs, sea lions, humpback whales, and more. Dolphins.
Krista: Dolphins would. Dolphins are total, dolphins are freaks.
Becca: Dude humpback whales sex sounds like really epic anyway, but humpback necrophilia is next…
Krista: That sounds dangerous.
Carrie Anne: That sounds dangerous. A whale necrophiliac would be a dangerous creature. Indeed.
Becca: All these octopuses is like swim away as fast as they can. It's like, oh fuck. I know what's happening back there. We got to get away.
Carrie Anne: The seals are telling the dolphins to move along.
Krista: Just go, just, just get out of here.
Carrie Anne: You don't want to see any of this, bro.
Krista: Do you got to join so you can plausible deniability?
Becca: We talked about necrophilia in the past. Krista, where's necrophilia and the present?
Krista: Everywhere. Everywhere. There's all sorts of movies and shows that really go into it all the way from Idlewild, they don't necessarily go all the way into it, that's with the Outkast, Andre 3000 and Big Boi. They insinuate. There's movies and shows, Criminal Minds, Nip Tuck, that was on FX. And then Freddy vs Jason, there's some scenes in there and all that fun stuff. But I would say the most notable that people really really know is the Rob Zombie's House of One Thousand Corpses and Otis, having dead women in his bed and other things that were insinuated, but pretty, pretty obvious.
And then another one would be the Family Guy episode when Death decides to go out on a date and kills the woman that takes him home and he just finishes just casually and everybody laughs just ha ha. Not very funny. I mean, it is, but because I mean he is Death, that makes sense. There's those, but then there's some pretty intense movies that go all the way back to 1987, 1968 is the oldest one. It's not as vulgar as the two that I really found. There's one called Necromantic. The first one was made in 1987. The second one was made in 1991. You can't really find too much about the first one because it's been banned in a lot of countries and a lot of networks just said no.
Becca: They’re like, we don't need that in our lives.
Krista: Yeah. And then if you want, you got to do some searching, but you can find the 1991 Necromantic 2 trailer on YouTube. And let's just say, there is nothing left to the imagination, you know exactly what is going on. You don't even really have to watch the movie. I mean, if you want to go over there and watch it, go for it. And then the other one that's kind of obscure, but insane that it's even out there. And if you want to go see some titty on a YouTube you can go watch the trailer for the 1990 Singapore Sling. It's about some crazy women that kill people and do crazy things. One of them has sex with her mummified dad’s body. I - the premise of the movie, I'm not quite sure. Even reading the transcript about it, what is going on? But go watch the trailer if you want to see some titties, I guess.
Carrie Anne: There's a lot of songs.
Krista: Yeah. It, it seems almost like it was made like filmed try to be a fifties movie, but you kind of.
Carrie Anne: Yeah, it was weird.
Krista: Then we go into music and that one is a little more recent.
Carrie Anne: My favorite necrophilia song of all time is Cold Ethel by Alice Cooper.
Krista: Yup.
Carrie Anne: That's, that's a huge one. That's the best one.
Krista: Tom Petty is also on that list. Not necessarily for sex with a dead body, but in the Mary Jane video, when Mary Jane died, he was like dancing around to their body in the morgue. That was the tactile.
Carrie Anne: It implied it, I think it implied it Krista.
Krista: Very much so implied.
Carrie Anne: What the hell was he doing in there?
Krista: Exactly. There's Ramstein. They have a song called Marry Me and it's about him digging up his [00:30:00] ex-girlfriend or dead girlfriend and asking her to marry him at that point. There is another really, really, really big one there's Cradle of Filth, Dead Girls Don’t Say No. There's also a drag queen, a drag queen, Sharon Needles who also did a rendition of Dead Girls. I have the lyrics for the Avenged Sevenfold song called A Little Piece of Heaven. But before I get to that one, another one that might shock everybody, DMX! RIP DMX, but in his 1998 album, Flesh of my Flesh, Blood of my Blood in the song Bring Your Whole Crew, he raps, “Got blood on my dick cause I fucked a corpse.”
So DMX got in on it. Weird. Avenged Sevenfold, which everybody knows they're not a great band. Whatever people like that. And then a song is called A Little Piece of Heaven. The song is about a man who asks his girlfriend to marry him and she proceeds to laugh and belittle him. He kills her. And it sounds like a cartoon song, just a straight up cartoon song. And then the cartoon continues to go on. One, some of the lyrics are, “must've stabbed her 50 fucking times. I can't believe it ripped her heart out right before my eyes. She's never been this good in bed, even when she was sleeping. Now she's just so perfect. I've never been quite so fucking deep in.”
It goes on and on and on. “I can't keep you looking young and preserved forever with the fountain of spray on your youth when...” And there's another part where he references, “Cause I really always knew that my little crime would be cold. That's why I got a heater for your thighs.”
Becca: He's just got like a space heater up in there.
Krista: If you watch this video, it straight up cartoons him having sex with his dead girlfriend. But then at the end, somehow she's reanimated. She kills him and then they go on a killing spree together.
Becca: It’s a happy ending. Wouldn’t you burn your dick with the space heater?
Krista: And they didn't put this song on the radio because obviously you can't, but this song isn't that old. And this is something, this is on their self-titled album, Avenged Sevenfold. And yeah, it's from 2009, but still, and then there's all of the, the E like the emo scene bands. There's a couple of bands and I wasn't able to find their names, but I've heard their songs and they talk about it. There's punk bands that do it. And it's just, it is just so widely talked about. And some people, the songs, they kind of fall into the love song category, I guess, in a way. And some of it’s horror core rap. Necromancer, he, he talks about it.
Becca: I didn't bring you back to fuck you, I left you dead.
Krista: Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I know. There's just so many, so many things out there that.
Becca: Maybe it is more common than we thought. Maybe that Karen bitch was right.
Krista: Maybe the people who make songs about it, it's more so of like the fantasizing.
Becca: That - would, they all count as like level three necrophiles? The fantasizers?
Krista: I think so. I am, I would, I would say. They may not know it though.
Becca: Like you just gotta be who you are.
Krista: Yeah. And I mean, I there's a niche for everybody.
Carrie Anne: I think because also the lack of consent is also part of it.
Krista: Yeah. It's I mean, and…
Carrie Anne: That's the appeal, that's the appeal and that's the problem because people don't like being told no, like that song said, and they get tired of being told no. And I can do whatever I want. I can do, I've always wanted to fuck someone's armpit.
Krista: And it doesn't matter what what I look like, because it doesn't matter.
Carrie Anne: Yeah. It doesn't matter at all what I look like or feel like. Yeah. It's fascinating when you start thinking about the psychopathy, the naturalties, the, this just the frivolities. I mean, it's not, it's not all black and white and, we've got a lot of percentages going out there zero to 5% huge. And also I think another number that we need to understand 20 to 50 year old men are the ones usually caught. I don't know if it's because, well, I like to say, I say, I like to say caught. I mean, I don't think they're the only ones doing it. Okay. I think that's the ones that maybe you're…if you you're 60, you're not going to get caught no more, either age out or, you're good at it. Or you've got a good pimp. We got to take that out of show. They're probably going to kick our show off, giving ideas like that.
Krista: No, people have done this for years! Set up corpses and sell them to the schools. Yeah, why wouldn't it, if they're going to pimp out live bodies, what makes you think they're not going to pimp out a dead body?
Becca: It's, it's easier to, well, I guess it would be easier at first to pimp out a dead body before they start decomposing. But yeah, dead body got no needs. Got no demands. Will not - no rejection, no resistance. Yep. It's interesting. And I do think that 15% like only 15% of genuine necrophiles report being like attracted to the corpse is really interesting, cause it's not like the physical, like there's, there's more to the attraction or more to the drive than attraction to the corpse. And that, yeah, that's really fascinating to me.
Krista: Yeah, I'm not, I wonder if, I've always wanted to become a mortician if you have some level.
Becca: We’ve got to get Alana back on the show to talk to us about this? I hope she likes this episode. Alana, if you're out there, you're listening to this, we love you. And we hope you like this episode.
Krista: Oh my goodness. There is a best of necrophilia because people still produce things about it.
Becca: Oh my God. Yeah. Speaking of a production of it. So I got really down the rabbit hole with this necrophiliac Karen Greenlee. She is, I'd say she's my favorite necrophile. She was born in 1956. She's comes out of fifties and sixties, and she's dubbed the best known modern practitioner of necrophilia.
She was interviewed for the 1987 book Apocalypse Culture. She was interviewed on the daytime talk show, Sally Jesse Raphael. The episode never aired because she was unrepentant of her actions. The 1996 Canadian independent film Kissed. It was based on her story. And the 1992 short story. We So Seldom Look on Love is the book about her story that the film was based on.
Karen Greenlee also contributed to the book Gospel of Filth, about the band Cradle of Filth that Krista just talked about. And the rock musical, The Unrepentant Necrophile was based on her story and it was shown at the Twin Cities Horror Festival and in the 2017 Orlando Fringe Festival.
So Karen Greenlee, she worked as an apprentice embalmer in Sacramento, California. On December 17th, 1979, she had her come-apart. It was pretty much a come-apart. So she was driving the body of this 33 year old man to his burial in this Cadillac hearse. So she's all like driving him up, not going to fuck the corpse not going to fuck the corpse…I'm gonna fuck the corpse!
So she sees the family. She's at the grave at the cemetery, she just like peels the fuck on out of there and steals the hearse and the corpse.
Carrie Anne: With the family there?
Becca: Yes. She literally drove right up to the cemetery. The family's, oh, here he comes. And she’s like, nah I’m gonna fuck this corpse! She pulls a U-ey and just hightails it on out of there. Days later, she's found in Sierra County, California with a stomach full of Tylenol and Codeine and a four and a half page long confession where she admits to being a morgue rate and that she had fucked 20 to 40 young adult male corpses.
She didn't die. Necrophilia was not illegal in California, so she was just charged with stealing the hearse and interfering with the funeral. She ended up paying a $225 fine and spent all of 11 days in jail followed by mandatory…The mother of the corpse did end up suing for emotional, severe, emotional distress.
Carrie Anne: Ruined the funeral! Do you know, how much funerals cost these days?
Becca: Right? So they did end up settling for us $117,000, but the defense psychiatrist was that ma that lady was already in emotional distress. She was fucked up from depression and alcoholism. But, nah I think…
Krista: Yeah. Wow.
Becca: Your son's corpse stolen.
Krista: My brain made me do it!
Carrie Anne: Yeah. I'd hunt that bitch down and whip her ass. I would, if that was my child, if that was James. He would haunt me!
Becca: He would hunt her.
Carrie Anne: He would haunt everyone if he had the chance. He’d, you let that bitch peel out at my funeral. Nobody stopped her. She fucked me. I don't even like her.
Becca: Yeah I fucked her back just once, but that was it!
Carrie Anne: Well James would fuck anybody. So that's kind of take that out. He's not particular. He's not particular. He's not right, Becca? He's just not.
Becca: I shared a basement with him once.
Carrie Anne: Once she saw the horse face girl.
Becca: Oh my God. Anyway, we love you, James. So Karen Greenlee, before her trial, following her arrest, she'd actually gotten another job at a different funeral home in a different city and was in the process of [00:40:00] working there when someone figured it out and she got fired. So following her 11 days in jail, Karen Greenlee was sent to mandatory therapy, which she says of this, “The more I talk to these people,” - these people, meaning therapists and social workers – “the more I realized necrophilia makes sense for me. The reason I was having a problem with this is because I couldn't accept myself. I was still trying to live my life by other people's standards. T accept it was peace.”
In the mid-1990s, Greenlee toured North America with her poetry. And she conferenced on sexual liberation And then she also said to you in her interview for Apocalypse Culture, that, it kind of gave some insight into necrophilia as a sexual orientation as she expressed it. Cause she said men would come onto her all the time and be, we can change her. Kind of like conversion therapy where it's, oh, maybe you just haven't met the right man yet. Or, oh, you're going to like, like fucking me so much, you're going to leave those corpses alone. But she is a genuine necrophiliac. She says she loves the smell of a freshly embalmed corpse. The cold, the funeral surroundings, the death odors, how blood purges out of the mouth. And then she also said that she did attend the funerals of the corpses that she made passionate love with. And when asked how she did it: dry humping!
Krista: Did she ever catch a corpse fresh enough? Cause, they're not always…whatever.
Becca: She liked, the cold, the ambience.
Carrie Anne: I remember the first time I got kicked out of a movie theater in Huntington, Utah. I was up on the balcony and I put cottage, cheese and milk with some green dye in it, little bit of, I was going to…This girl had pissed me off and she was sitting down there and I go, ah, ah, nice, toss it over. And I go, “I just gave head to a dead guy!” And I hit the girl. I hit the girl with it. It was so gross. I was so mean. She was a little bitch, she had to coming. But that was my first necrophilia joke. It was totally premeditated cause I had to sneak it in the theater with the cup lid on it. Cause I didn't want anybody to know what I was going to do. It was in my coat. And I had to get to the balcony. I had to see where she was at. It was all kinds of calculations going on. Oh yeah. The only thing I did not calculate was that the owner of the theater or whoever the manager was, was going to be up on the balcony. I should have thought that, but, I thought it was going to be dark enough.
Becca: You mostly got away with it.
Carrie Anne: Mostly it got away with it. I mean, I didn't, I didn't get grounded cause I didn't tell anybody what I did because screw her, I'm not telling her.
Krista: It's everywhere.
Carrie Anne: So even kids joke about it. Cause I was what? 12, 13.
Krista: Oh yeah. Remember I used to call people promiscuous necrophiliacs in fifth grade.
Carrie Anne: See.
Becca: Right. It's everywhere.
Krista: They'd be, what do you mean? And I'd be like, I'm sorry.
Carrie Anne: You don't know what it means, then you don't need to know.
Krista: Exactly, pretty much. I knew, I read the dictionary. I was a weirdo.
Carrie Anne: I know and you don't.
Krista: It was good. And then people get really upset because they didn't know and they'd want to know. And then finally they would know. I mean, there's always Ed, Ed was there.
Carrie Anne: I had to charge my phone, but there was this one Chinese guy that fucked his princess wife that died, but I'm sure that happened all the time. That was really cute. I wanted to talk about that, it was a little princess.
Becca: It's like Sleeping Beauty.
Krista: Yeah. I mean, Sleeping Beauty was, I mean, but weren't, they kind of just beauty kind of way…
Carrie Anne: But she was in a coma, but how did they didn't know?
Krista: She was dead, dead. She was enchanted. It, because he just had to kiss her unless he had the power.
Becca: He didn’t fucking know!
Carrie Anne: He didn’t know, just a pretty girl on her funer- or mausoleum. Cause that's what it looks like. It looks like a bed.
Krista: It's glass coffin.
Becca: Oh, is there dead wife and American Gods? She gets laid. She gets laid a lot and they're not shy about being like she is decomposing.
Carrie Anne: Well, Ted Bundy was a necrophiliac. We all know that and Dahmer, but, but Bundy was pretty gross. I mean, he would go and go and go until he couldn't until they were too putrid. And, he had his remains scattered, his cremated remains scattered over this whole area where all these bodies were that he fucked for, who knows for how long. They did and I'm still mad about it. And that it was a whole field of women.
Krista: And that's where he wanted to go. That they even honored that.
Carrie Anne: I don't think they could tell him no, because of some kind of weird law or something in Washington. And he was from Washington at that was his state. That was his state of home reference.
Becca: That was his deal. He's, if I'm going down, I'm going to creep, you all out in the process. At his a trial where he made the police officer's relive finding the crime scenes and gruesome detail and then, oh, you're going to kill me. Well, you're going to be my accomplice in my last act of fuckery. And they're , damn it. He made me do it.
Carrie Anne: Yeah. He, he basically is buried with them now or whatever you want to call it. He's scattered all over. Yeah. It's ridiculous. The last act of, act of necrophilia, he could commit.
Becca: And we made the State of Washington help him.
Carrie Anne: Yeah. I think they had to pay for it because he got, because he got electrocuted. They have to give you the best steak, that's not no BS. They also have to do all your other stuff. Yeah. That's what happened. Some states I'm sure. Not all, I'm sure.
Krista: Like here family of this person that you…
Carrie Anne: Or maybe his mother and family did pay for it. And if that was the case, no, prob.
Krista: But still like his mom, oh my son, I guess she was, “my son would never do that.”
Carrie Anne: I want to know who scattered him. I, I still want to know that. Who did it?
Krista: Or did they even really scatter them or they just.
Carrie Anne: I wouldn't. I keep 'em but, that's just, I think everything should be in a museum. It should go to a museum. There's a death museum in Tennessee. Take them today.
Becca: Oh shit. We got to go check that out. The death museum.
Carrie Anne: They've got Ted Bundy's, Ted Bundy's car. Yeah. Yeah.
Becca: So do y'all think so what's the - what's the juice on Necrophilia. Is it wrong? Is it a victimless crime? I mean, aside from homicidal necrophilia, there's obviously victims and homicidal necrophilia.
Carrie Anne: Not according to the Babylonian Sumerians.
Krista: No. And I mean, it's, I guess it's emotionally distressing to the families, which I, I can understand because I, like a lot of people will say the whole death situation and the ritual of it is more so for the living than it is for the dead, just as a ritual of seducing the corpse or something of that is a thing as well.
Carrie Anne: I think it would really upset a Mormon woman whose husband went their whole life and didn't have sex with anyone else and they're going to have the eternity afterlife. Yeah. And then somebody fucked, the corpse might fuck that up. I don't know.
Krista: And like I said, I dunno, the corpse itself. No, because what if, what if it's one of a Jane Doe? Yes, there's the family, but the family doesn't know or care they to do it.
Carrie Anne: They're going to have to take off the garments that the magical. Yeah, no, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that they're doing to defile.
Krista: I'm not talking about Mormons. I'm just talking about…exactly. So just like to the families, I suppose. What if, what what's that island called in New York where it's just, just freaking cemetery of people that have died in prison or, and they had, nobody claimed the bodies or homeless people that they have found and stuff like that.
Carrie Anne: I can't remember the name of but it’s a pottersville.
Krista: Yeah. What about those? There's nobody to offend. I mean, I, it’s gross. Do you? I don't know.
Becca: I guess the, you know you think of, who's hurt by it. It would probably be the loved ones of the necrophile. Or the well, any, any partners that got those dead mold STDs, that, that, that would, that would suck. So STD from your partner because your partner was fucking corpses…without you.
Carrie Anne: I'd kill him though. I would kill him. I'd go to the doctor and the doctor be…
Krista: Ma'am, can you tell me about your sexual partners?
Carrie Anne: Unless you're doing it.
Becca: That's how you find out he’s corpse fucking secretly. right? Well this awkward, but it saved our marriage, right?
Krista: This is awkward, but now we both know. The Russians, I bet it was , are you eating humans? Nah. Are you eating humans? Nah. Are you eating humans? Yeah. Are you eating humans? Yeah, let's do this. How do you start off a date of, Hey, can you just pretend to be dead?
Becca: What if we found someone who was dead?
Krista: Or, hey, how would you feel if, yeah. No, no, no. Just now, oh my goodness. It's so weird. We had to go there…
Becca: And this is why people don't research it. And there's, because it is so taboo, but at the same time, it's not the worst thing by a long shot, except for homicidal necrophiliacs. But that's, that's the bad part is the, the murdery part.
Carrie Anne: You can't even by cutting off an arm, you cannot hurt them. It's a different thing. It's a different world.
Krista: It is. And I don't think anybody that's not into cold bodies will ever understand, all honesty.
Carrie Anne: No, we don't get it. And that’s okay.
Becca: I wonder if it’s connected with cryophilia, that what does it being sexually aroused by being cold or seeing others be cold?
Carrie Anne: I agree.
Krista: And that probably falls into line there because for the role-play ones, I would feel you'd have to have a little bit of that to be able to understand that, oh, they're not actually dead because there's not the rigor mortis and the things that come with it. But they're just extremely cold as if…How does that? Well what if you lay in the bathtub too long and you ended up with some weird, hypothermia or free, not freezer burn, frostbite or something , I would suck. What if you got frostbite on your hoohah? That would be awful. But then, but then he they'd be [00:50:00] even closer because then the skin starts decomposing.
Becca: We got over this in the past, you shouldn't die for kink.
Krista: No, don’t…
Carrie Anne: We don't believe in that.
Krista: I mean, technically you wouldn’t be dying, you would just be losing a body, but fleshy part of your back.
Carrie Anne: In season three, agree, you don't lose a piece of your body for a kink. You have that?
Krista: Don’t lose, don't lose limbs…
Carrie Anne: Because you froze to your bed.
Krista: Don't freeze your tits off. Oh, that would be interesting. Oh, how quickly that conversation went, south.
Carrie Anne: You’re terminated. Okay. What was it Schwarzenegger that said no, no more necrophilia in California?
Krista: Oh, he's from Austria. So I bet he's seen some shit, some shit over there.
Becca: If I don’t put an end to this someone’s going to try to fuck my corpse.
Krista: Oh. Cause, he's so sexy.
Carrie Anne: No fucking me.
Becca: Well what if you’re dead and vulnerable?
Carrie Anne: And fuck you. You can't fuck me.
Krista: Right. He doesn't want anybody to get a sperm and make more babies to steal his estate.
Carrie Anne: He’s already got enough in line. That one from the maid looks just like him, just like him. I’d be so pissed if I was Maria and the kids walking around when he's 12. And she's, Arnold!
Krista: Arnold,
Becca: Well, necrophilia, ladies and gentlemen, we did it. We went there.
Krista: It happened. We got weird.
Carrie Anne: It was a fun research. I loved it.
Krista: It was a good just kick in the door for season three.
Carrie Anne: Absolutely getting it all in there.
Becca: Oh my God. My husband's been such a good sport. I've been like talking to him about necrophilia for a week now. He's just finally, I think he's been worn down by love because he's just, yeah, let's talk about it then.
Carrie Anne: That's lovely.
Krista: No, no mine, mine showed me a bunch of music. Oh, this one or this one. And then, and then there's this one and this one song is just called Necrophilia.
Becca: That is supportive.
Krista: It is even though he's, what is wrong with you? Why’d you find the most messed up topic to talk about? You knew I was a weirdo. Get over it.
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