Bonus Episode! A Novel Crime With Bestselling Author Deborah Levison!

Welcome everyone to a bonus episode of the Cops and Writers podcast, author spotlight with bestselling author and publicist, Deborah Levison. Her first book, THE CRATE, won seven literary awards, and Lee Child, #1 New York Times bestselling author of the JACK REACHER series, said, “THE CRATE is an impressive piece of work." Since then, she wrote A Nest of Snakes and recently released A Novel Crime, which has been described as “Uproariously funny, exquisitely unputdownable, and ingeniously plotted... the perfect, delicious escape." 

Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with one of my favorite authors. 

In today’s episode, we discuss:

·      Her award-winning and bestselling book, The Crate.

·      Growing up as a child of immigrants who were Holocaust survivors.

·      The growing antisemitic rhetoric in this country.

·      Lee Child giving her a glowing review for The Crate.

·      Her book launch for her newest book, A Novel Crime! Let’s just say sometimes things don’t always go as planned.

All of this and more on today’s episode of the Cops and Writers podcast.

Please visit Deborah Levison's website to learn more about her and her books.

Head on over to my website to learn more about me and my books!

Check out my newest book! Police Stories: The Rookie Years - True Crime, Chaos & Life as a Big City Cop!

What's the craziest thing you saw when you were a cop?

My first week on the job, a guy running at me with a butcher knife. He'd just killed his brother over the last hot dog.

That's chapter 1. There are 33 more.

Police Stories: The Rookie Years just launched - available on Amazon. 

Search 'Police Stories Patrick O'Donnell' or click th

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome everyone to a bonus episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast, Author Spotlight, with bestselling author and publicist Deborah Levison. Her first book, The Crate, won seven literary awards, and Lee Child, number one New York Times bestselling author of the Jack Reacher series, said, The Crate is an impressive and important piece of work. Since then, she wrote a nest of snakes and recently recently released a novel crime that has been described as uproariously funny, exquisitely unput downable, and ingeniously plotted. The perfect delicious escape. Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with one of my favorite authors, Debbie Levison. Debbie Levison, welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Thank you for having me again. Third time, I think, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

This is round three, I believe. Yes. I could not be happier. This is awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Thank you again. In case you didn't see it in the acknowledgments of my new book, thank you again for all your law enforcement help with that story.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Anytime, anytime for my friends. And Debbie, you're my friends. So absolutely. Yeah, I I bought the audio version, and I gotta say, your narrator knocked it out of the park. I think she did a really good job. Did you have a lot of input in that as far as narrators?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

I mean, I had some. So the publisher provided three different audition pieces, and she just, you know, she just starred, she shone right from the beginning, and um everybody agreed. And she's very well known in the audio world, Tanya Eby.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Um, and we just thought she did a fantastic job.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, I was very impressed with her. Yeah, I love audiobooks. That's how I consume most of my um books is through audio because it's just so darn convenient. You know, I'm driving to the grocery store, I'm working out, I'm walking the dog, you know, whatever. It's like, and I could be I can multitask. So I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So good for you. I love it. All right. So tell you what, tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So um I grew up in Toronto, Canada, and had a pretty, you know, quiet childhood. I spent my summers uh in the woods north of Toronto. And so I did a lot of reading, a lot of sketching, kind of contemplating life as I floated along in my little rowboat on the lake. Um, and what else? And my after-school hours were spent practicing piano. I was supposed to be a classical pianist. Um that's that's the path my parents wanted for me. And so that's what I did all the way through the end of high school, and then I just kind of dropped it.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Where did you go to college?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

University of Toronto.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Oh, okay. Now, how would you describe your childhood?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Um a little bit lonely, I think. I spent a lot of time alone, a lot of time with books. Okay. So the characters and books were my friends, and I did a lot of writing just for fun when I was a kid. Um, which looking back should have been like a big flag, like a big waving flag, you know, be a writer, be a writer, but it never really occurred to me. So it was uh it was supposed to be, you know, be a classical pianist or be a lawyer. Those were kind of the options.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

But I think you know, being a classical pianist, you know, that takes so much creativity. You know, you have that creativity gene. So you're a good writer, so you're you know, a piano player too. I think those two things I'm not surprised by that. Let's just say that.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Well, for me, writing is very musical. Like I have to hear sort of the cadence of the words and the rhythm of the sentences as I'm writing, and I have to see how they look on the page, like a piece of music almost. Oh, okay. So I do kind of I think there is a link.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

I started college as a music major, and I tell you what, I had to take class piano, you know, that was a part of it, and just the right hand is travel cleft, the left hand is bass cleft, correct? If I remember correctly. And I just all my life I played treble cleft instruments, so that was a breeze. Like what? Saxophone was my main. I played uh alto and baritone sax. Nice, and I did an independent studies when I was in high school, where I went down to the elementary school and partnered up with the band director down there, and I had to give lessons to the kids, so I had to learn all the instruments, so I had to learn trumpet, trombone, you know, all these clarinets, uh flutes, and I did I was in percussion when I was younger, so that wasn't too much of a stretch for me. But learning the bassclef stuff for whatever reason, my brain just would not accept it. I'm like, damn it, this whole left hand thing and bass clef.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

I just oh that's very funny.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

I admire anyone who can play the piano well. Um do you still play the colour?

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Well, I was strings in school.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

All through school. I was always viola, sometimes violin.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

So yeah, now do you still play piano?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

I am so rusty right now. Like, I don't even know if I could bang out a Beatles tune at this point.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Well, you see, like those like TikToks and whatever, is like, oh, here's a piano at the open market or whatever. I think I'll just start playing. So would you ever sit down and just start jamming?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

I've tried. I I'm really you know, I have a standard and I'm so far from it at this point. I would really have to sit down and practice for hours, even just to get my fingers moving again. Like they don't have that nimble um musculature that they had before.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

So did any of your kids go into music or play?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

No, my daughter took piano for a few years. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

That's where it ended. All right. Now, when you were a kid, or even like later on, what did you want to do when you grew up? What was your aspiration?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

So I read I Never Promised You a Rose Garden, and I read Sybil so many times that it I think no, I really think it kind of drove me towards wanting to be a psychologist. So I got my major in psychology. But then when I graduated, I stepped right into journalism and public relations, which was all creative writing and ghost writing under someone else's name. So um, and that was the career that I just continued till this day. Um, so you know, by now I've been published in like so many countless local, national, international media outlets, but it's all under someone else's name. So I always wanted to write a book.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Okay, okay. That's interesting that you mentioned Sybil. I remember that movie when it came out. I think it was Sally Field, wasn't it? That was that played. And I was like, holy cow, I had no idea people could be that screwed up. I mean, that was a powerful movie.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

You have to read the book. The book was so much better than the movie. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Was that based on a true story? I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Oh, I how do you live like that? Oh my god. Yeah, wow, craziness. So let's fast forward to the first book that has your name on it as the author. Is The Crate your first book? I think it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Oh, that's there.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

We go. Oh look, there just happens to be a copy of it.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, it just happens to be beside me. Um, yeah, and there's my name. Yeah, it's my first book. It's actually not the first book I wrote, but it's the first book that was published.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Um, so as you know, because we we talked about it before, but as you know, it's the story of a murder that involved my family. And um, you know, there was this murder, there was a discovery in a wooden crate and an investigation and a trial. And when the trial concluded, everybody kind of looked at me and said, So you're gonna write the book? And I'm like, okay, I guess I am. I I had never thought of reading a true crime book, let alone writing one. Yeah, it was just not even on my radar. But then when this whole when this whole thing happened to my family, it was um it was like the opportunity to write the book.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Well, I tell you what, I read the entire book and I found it moving, I found it emotional, and you know, you can't fake it, you can't fake that at all. It was just I thought it was astounding. I I can't recommend this book enough, and I'm not just saying that because you're on my show, but boy, that was from the heart, you know, and it just that was a great book. And I again I cannot recommend it enough, you know. And then I'm looking at the reviews, and Lee Child reviewed it. How did that happen? And did you know it was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

That was crazy. Um, no, I had I didn't know it was gonna happen. So so the book had just come out, and I was at my first Thriller Fest conference in New York City, and I remember just stepping off a panel when I felt a tap on my shoulder, and I turned around and I had to look up. I had to look way up. So I I'm pretty tall for a woman, but Lee Child is very tall. So I'm looking up and he's holding a copy of my book, which had just come out, it had just released. Wow. And he said, I read a few chapters last night and I'm really liking it. Uh you know, my jaw just dropped. Sure. I was in shock.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

And he ended up giving it a beautiful blurb.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, he sure did.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Which was on the front cover.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Uh I I know I'd put it on the front cover if Lee Child was doing that for me. Heck yeah. You know, it it's both educational, it's also educational. You know, as far as we I don't think Jewish history is taught enough, especially you know, World War II era, obviously, and and beyond. And I believe that book is extremely relevant today because of just such an anti-Semitic environment. Some of it's blatant, and a lot of it is just innuendo and and just subtleties. And it's just it makes me want to vomit. You know, it just I don't know what world we're living in right now, but I don't recognize it and it's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah, so we should probably tell listeners that the reason you're bringing this up is because um when I was writing the story of this murder, sort of in the middle of writing, I realized that for readers to understand the impact that the murder would have on my family, I had to tell my family history, which was in the Holocaust. So the story, the narrative sort of intertwines the Holocaust in the past and this murder in the present. So um, so it is, you know, it is my family history, and it is a continuation of anti-Semitism throughout history, sort of culminating with the Holocaust. Um, but you're right, like what we're seeing now is just this parallel universe where history is not being taught in school, just you know, history doesn't count, facts don't count, only feelings count now. And um, and we have this whole inversion where where victims are being called aggressors, and aggressors are being called victims, Jews are being called Nazis. And I mean, this is this is like classic Holocaust inversion. Detention centers are being called concentration camps, you know. He was the one that said, accuse your enemies of what you yourself are guilty of. And it's just completely inverting reality, and it's propaganda, it's just pure propaganda, and people are buying into it like crazy.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, you know, we were talking before, you know, I hit record, and you have you know Hollywood elites and you know, rock stars and whoever else that have very little education out, you know, they have a skill set, you know, they can play an instrument really well, they can sing really well, they can act very well. That does not make them experts in geopolitical anything, you know. But they have an audience, they have a captured audience, and they like you said before, you know, they want to be relevant, they want to be seen, they want it, so they'll just regurgitate whatever their you know little bubble has them say, and it's like, oh, they're so you know how smart of them to say no, not at all. It's a bunch of garbly goop.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

But people just all virtue signaling, yeah. And they're all these people that don't know anything about history, they don't know anything about geopolitics, they're all just parroting everything they see on TikTok as if that's like a resource.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Oh, all right, that's enough of that. We could do we could do a podcast on that all day, yeah. We could, but again, the crates, you interwove those stories very, very well. It was very well written and it keeps you going, and it's very relevant for today. So I highly, highly, highly recommend that book. So the next book was the A Nest of Snakes. It this was fiction, but it was based on real events, correct?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yes. Oh, and you're outstanding.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

So why write that?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Yeah, so a nest of snakes is uh it is fiction, and it's inspired by these lawsuits that I worked on a few years ago, where these middle-aged men alleged that they've been abused in these very elite New England private schools, boarding schools. And it was my job to read through the complaints and publicize the lawsuits, um, you know, to get more plaintiffs to come forward. And uh, I was just blown away by what happened to these vulnerable young boys, and I decided to write a book about it. Um, but it was fictionalized and it was actually toned down a lot so that readers um readers could find it a little more palatable. Like the real stuff was just so graphic and so horrible. So I toned it down.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Oh, how difficult was it to transition from nonfiction over to fiction?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

So much easier to write fiction, I think. Okay. So, first of all, with nonfiction, because uh it was a memoir, because I used you know my actual family's names and information, um, I didn't realize at the time that it would feel um a little bit unsafe later, a little bit a little bit violating. Like strangers will come up to me and ask something about my kids, and I'm like, oh, okay, how do you know about my kids? Right. Like, oh, I read your book. Um so there's that sort of vulnerability of telling the truth to the whole world, but also the differences with fiction, I can control the narrative, I control the chaos, right? Like I control what happens to my characters and what's going on in the world. Whereas, you know, with with the crate, I had no control. It was just me reporting the events the way they happened, and you know, how much I wish I could have changed what happened to my father in three concentration camps. You know, I wish I could have changed everything that I was telling about the Holocaust, but I couldn't. That was history and that was fact, so I told it as it was. Whereas with fiction, I can do whatever I want, and it's it's comforting, you know, I can control the feelings. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Now we have a new book out, A Novel Crime, which I got the audio version, which you know we were talking before. Your narrator knocked it out of the park. I I thought it was really good. And, you know, all of you authors out there that are watching, listening, you know how stressful a book launch can be. This, you know, oh man, all the little things you're trying to put together. There's a hundred little things going on. And here's our Debbie doing her book launch, and things didn't go exactly as planned. Why don't you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Oh, this is gonna be this is gonna be one for the books. So here is a novel crime, which just released last Tuesday. So tomorrow it'll be a week as of this recording. And um, you know, an author goes about marketing their book largely on social media. There are other ways too, but social media is really key. So here are posting and sharing and commenting, and there were all these bookstogrammers who were talking about the book, and I asked all my author friends to post for launch day and all of that. So I wake up the morning of Pub Day and um, you know, expecting the day to be so fun and celebratory, and I wake up to an alert that my Facebook language had been changed to Thai, and then all these notifications, one after the other, saying that there was a login in London, England, and suddenly I can't access my Facebook or Instagram accounts, and then I get messages from Meta saying that I had violated the community standards and they were deleting my accounts as a result, and so now you know I spent the whole week trying to figure out the workarounds, and I can't get back in.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

You know, that's I once that happens, I mean that strikes fear in every author's heart or a creative, you know, and yeah, there's no simple solution, there's no one-800 number where you could call and be on hold for 15 minutes and make it all okay again. That's yeah, two things um jumped out at me when you were just explaining all that. One was it was super smart for you to email authors because you emailed me and it's like, hey, this is launch day. I would really appreciate it if you would, you know, do X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, that's what you have to do. Nobody is gonna do it for you. You have to ask. It feels odd sometimes, or whatever, but if you don't ask for it, it ain't gonna happen. So that was super smart. So, you know what? And I'm sure I wasn't the only one. I still put up all that on launch day for you.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Thank you. I wish I could have seen it.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Thanked you, you know, as a comment under the post, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

But but by doing that, you know, you obviously you didn't know your Facebook account was gonna, you know, turn to dust, but by doing that, I'm sure I wasn't the only author that did that. And if you wouldn't have put that um post out, it would have been worse.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah, yeah. Well, I still have no idea what's going on out there right now. Um, I know that people are still people are emailing, like usually it would be a message on that social media platform. But now people are emailing and saying, I'm trying to tag you. Where are you?

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Everything okay? Where are you?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Well, that is a stark reminder that's like in our face that social media is one part of the marketing cog. I mean, we do rely on it, we all do, but it could go away tomorrow. I mean, it could go My space, it could go. I mean, it's you don't own it, somebody else owns it, and the only thing that you do own really is your books and your email list. If you can build that email list up, I that's huge, I think.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

It's true, it's true. And looking back, I wish I had concentrated on that a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah, so but you know, you have time on your side. I mean, you your next book will come out. This book, I'm sure, will do well. And yeah, but it it that is just scary stuff. But let's go on to the book, a novel crime. Tell us about the storyline without giving away spoilers, because there are spoilers.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

So it's the story of Marcy Jo Codburn, who is a struggling romance writer who is desperate for a bestseller, and she wants to win the admiration of her very judgmental daughter, Beatrice. And she has this chance encounter with this glamorous celebrity author named Francesca. And that encounter sort of sends her down this insane rabbit hole of mayhem. And so her behavior goes from questionable to um a little unethical to downright illegal.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And she was just such a fun character to write. Like I just had so much fun watching her go off the rails.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Now, are you the person who has all the details done before you start writing? Do you have a big plot? You know, you you have this outline and you just follow it, or you just fly by the seat of your pants?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah, well, I should have uh I should have brought my board down to show you. So I start with these really good intentions of plotting out my books, and I buy like all these multicolored post-its and a big board, and then I start writing all my information and plotting everything out, and then I start writing, and before I know it, the story just kind of takes off in a completely different direction, or the characters do, you know, they have a mind of their own and they start doing stuff that I didn't count on. Um, so I I think of myself as a failed plotter.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Um see, like for me, I'm the opposite. What I do is I start out. If I'm writing fiction, I know the beginning, the middle, and the end. Not saying that's exactly how it's gonna happen. But if I get stuck, I start plotting like crazy. If I write myself into a corner, that's how my brain works. Where it's like, okay, if I plot this out, then okay, I'm I'm okay. But I then I have to put it on paper. You know, I there's a piece of software called Plotter, so I'll really oh yeah, it's awesome. And I'll just put it in plotter, and I was like, okay, now this makes sense, and then I'll go off the rails like a couple days later, you know. Then I'll be like, all right, uh, yeah, I'll kind of keep that, but now I want to do this, yeah. So yeah, okay, very cool. Now, you know, you're talking about you know, you're a musician and there's rhythm to your you know books, and I totally, totally see that. I I love the way you write, you know, it's I love the flow, and there is a rhythm to it, and I don't think you can teach that.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Well, um, my response to that is I can't do math.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

You and me both.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Like, I still to this, I think I had one the other night. I still have nightmares about not going to math class and just being completely overwhelmed by not understanding what's going on. Well, I think that's how I still feel to this day. So everybody has their strong suit.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

And I will never be mad.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I love college algebra so much I took it twice. You know, that's that was me uh like, oh god, this is horrific. So, how long did it take you to write this book?

SPEAKER_00 25:57

So, my writing time is definitely decreasing. So, I think um my first book took about three years. A Nest of Stakes took a year and a half, and then this one this one actually took um about six months from point A to 90% finished. So in six months, I was 90% finished, and then that last 10% was really, really hard just because I don't know, a world events kind of paralyzed me for a few months, and then I couldn't write at all. Well, so it was a while before I finished.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

I'm not gonna give anything away, but like you said before, there's a lot of plot twists here, and there's a lot of stuff going on, and you have to kind of like put it all together in the end, right? And that's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, no, well, I knew the end, so I'm like you. I knew the beginning and I knew the ends, but it's you know that arc of getting from beginning to end that always throws me in different directions. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Wow. So were you thinking of real people when you were crafting your main characters?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Um, well, so for Marcy, I think she has a lot of relatable characteristics. I think, you know, I mean, as as authors, I think we have our moments where we're envious or jealous of success. Yep. And we were feeling maybe a little entitled, like I need, you know, I deserve to be published. I deserve this kind of success. And um, and she's also a little deluded. And I, you know, like I know I can think that way sometimes. You know, she thinks she's this great writer just because she was on the yearbook staff in high school or whatever. So um I think she's got characteristics that are that we all can relate to, but as a as a whole, she was just on a next level of of uh crazy, which I loved.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah. Isn't that fun when you're writing a character and you're just like and you could just have them go bananas, yeah? You could have them do stuff that maybe you thought of, but you're just like, Well, I don't want to go to jail, or it's illegal or immoral or whatever, but man, you could have your character do all kinds of crazy stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

So if your book that's the fun part, that's pulling the strings of the puppets, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Exactly. So if your book, a novel crime, makes it to the small or big screen, who would you want to play the main character or character?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Um, so oh, there's the big question. So we're we're putting it out in in the movie verse, yes. Um good juju. Um, so I think for Marcy, I had a couple of ideas. I can see Elizabeth Banks playing her or Kristen Bell.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Because I think they both played quirky kinds of characters in the past. And then so there are there are actually four main female roles. Right. Um for Marcy's daughter Beatrice. I just watched The Last Thing He Told Me, I think that's what it was called. And the young girl in it, Nguri Rice. I can see her playing Beatrice. Okay. Um, and then for Francesca, who's the very beautiful um celebrity author, I can see either Rose Byrne. I think I think she would be perfect, actually. Rose Byrne could do a good Francesca. Um, and then there's Francesca's daughter, Aspen. And so for her, um, have you ever seen Ginny and Georgia on Netflix? Have you heard of it? So there's a young actress in her early 20s. Her name is Sarah Waysblass, and I need her to play Aspen. Okay. She's so talented, she's the perfect like physical embodiment of Aspen. She's beautiful. And as it happens, I'm really, really good friends with her parents who live in Toronto. Well, look at that. So, um, so yeah, I'm putting it out there. Um, maybe I'll send her a copy of the book to produce, star in, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

There you go. I I think it should work. And I should have prefaced it with living or dead, because sometimes it's hard, you know. There's iconic, you know, actors and actresses.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Oh, that changes things.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

It does. It does. So just saying, maybe Elizabeth Taylor is, you know, Marcy. I don't know. Just a thought. Just a thought. All right. Was this book more difficult to write compared to your other books?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

No.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Okay. No.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

I mean, I I would say it was the same level of difficulty for craft because you still, you know, regardless of it being funny or lighthearted, whatever, you still want you still want the writing to be good and the structure to be good, but emotionally it was much easier to write because it's just, you know, it's a fun read, and it's supposed to be just a fun um satirical crime caper, right? You know, with dark humor. That's that was the intention of it. I wanted to write something not serious and not heavy like my first two books.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah. How refreshing for you, hey?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

It was, it really was. But you still want to make it a good book, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

And like I said before, there are twists and turns and all kinds of stuff going on, and that takes real skill to put it all together and do it in a way that makes sense for the reader. That's not easy, that's hard, right? So good on you. So how did you keep track of all these characters and what was going on? Yeah, as I was listening to it, I'm just like, as an author, and you know, I'm sure you're the same way, you're listening or watching reading a book or watching a movie. It's like, man, that must have been tough to put together. Holy cow.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Well, I mean, I did have I did have help from the editing process when I got to that stage. Um, I do have one trick that I love using. So I write out the letters of the alphabet in a long list, okay, and I plug in my characters' names for you know, first name, last name, so I don't use a lot of the same letter. That's one thing I do. Like I've read books where every single character starts with J and it's annoying. Um, so that's one thing. But then as I'm writing, you know, my list of characters, I also just write bullet points about what they're up to at any given time. And it just kind of helps me keep track of wherever it is.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

There is a lot of stuff going on. So yeah, I was thinking to myself, you'd have to have something here. You know, that that that would not be simple or easy, that's for sure. So why write a crime story?

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Well, um, I guess since the first book came out, I started going to these conferences like Thrillerfest and BoucherCon and um got involved with Sisters in Crime, which has a chapter here in Connecticut. So I made a lot of friends in the thil in the thriller author community. That's one thing. Um, and I, you know, I just kind of feel like I'm part of the community. That's that's part of it, but also it's my favorite genre to read. Okay. So it would make sense to write what you like to read. Although I also do like historical fiction, and I feel like I might have one in me in the future.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Oh my excellent. So, what parts of this book do you think readers will enjoy the most?

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Um I think it's just a ride, you know, it's just like this chaotic ride that has laugh out loud moments. I had one reader say that she had to use her inhaler because she was laughing so much.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

That's awesome. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

That was a big compliment. Uh yeah, no, I just hope readers have fun with it. It's not meant to have any, you know, grand um messaging, it's just a fun thriller.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Okay. Now, do you have a celebration ritual when you release a book or type the end?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

No, I don't. Do you?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

What sewers?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Champagne. I drink bubbles, I love champagne.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Depending on how much money is in the account, uh, definitely Bollinger, and we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Really? Yes. Okay. I don't think I'm doing it right then.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Well, I'll tell you what, it once you cross that finish line, that's a huge accomplishment. Not many people well, not most people have a book in them, I think. Most people, I I forget the numbers, but it was like close to 90% of the people say, Yeah, I've got a book in me. I should write a book about X, Y, or Z. And the percent that actually start writing said book compared to the percent that actually type the end and publish it into the wild is minute. So you are in a very small little group of folks who and I think it takes guts to put your name on a book and throw it out there that you're just exposing yourself, you know. You're exposing yourself to trolls, you're exposing yourself. I mean, good things happen and hackers, yeah, exactly, and bad things happen too. But you know what? Yeah, you should celebrate it. You did something remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had a great celebration party for my book launch that night. Um, and that was a lot of fun. I had a ton of people show up. I think there were like 70 people there, and the book sold out. Um, so that and there was champagne. There was champagne that night. So, yes, well, prosecco. Yeah, but it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah, for 70 people, I would not be serving Bollinger, that's for sure. I don't have that kind of bank account, but you know, it would be uh it would be the ten dollar stuff, that's for sure. But right, did you have it like at a book? Did you have it at a bookstore?

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Did you have the okay? This is what I've been seeing lately. Did you have the cake in the shape of a book with your cover on it?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Uh I didn't. Oh shoot, I should have brought it down. I don't have it here with me. I did not have a cake, I did have cupcakes to match the book cover, nice, which makes sense because you know, cupcakes are mentioned several times in the book.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Um, and I didn't have a cake, but I have, I do now own a jean jacket with the book cover painted on the back.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Oh wow, where'd you get that? That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Flawless, it's it's like the exact replica of my book cover, and my daughter painted it for me for a surprise.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Oh, that's awesome!

SPEAKER_00 37:25

She painted it. I should I should have been wearing it. She painted it freehand, like didn't even sketch it out first. She just started painting.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

More creative talent in the family. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

It's incredible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

That now I have to wear my jean jacket everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yeah, I know it can get cold in Connecticut, so or it'll be 90 degrees, and there's Debbie out there in her jeans. A little warm, aren't you? No, I'm fine. I'm fine. That's so cool. I love that. That's great. So let's switch gears a little bit here. What's your take? Like the big thing in author world right now is the shy girl scandal. AI. You know, the accusation of Mia Ballard using AI to write 78% of her book. And I guess what happened, she she published it, she self-published first, and it did really well. Hashat um took her on as her publisher, and things were steaming right along, and things were great. And somebody put it in an AI detector. Now, the accuracy of said AI detector, I question, and they pulled her books, and pretty much her career's over, just like that. Yeah, there's a little bit, I'm not gonna give stuff away from your book, but there are a little bit of parallel y kind of stuff going on here. What do you think about that scandal?

SPEAKER_00 38:50

So, well, um, I don't want to say anybody deserved to have their career end, but on the other hand, um, I just kind of object to the use of AI because there are, you know, us authors who are doing the actual work and not taking shortcuts. Um she did say that she didn't write with AI, but only used AI for editing. So that's that's what she said. We'll just leave it at that. Um, but then again, AI is also programmed by us. Like we're the ones that are, yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

So I would um I would kind of applaud the chat for for canceling the book here in the States. I think it was already released in the UK, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yes, it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah. Anyway, um, look, you want to write a book, write it yourself. If you want AI to write it, put it on the front cover.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yeah, you know, AI. We're almost in the wild west right now of AI and publishing. You know, I I did a little more uh homework on what happened to her, and her defense was that you know, she self-published the book, she gave it to an acquaintance who used AI to edit the book. They put it in Chat GPT and then gave it back to her. Well, I think some of the onus should be on Hash Ed you know, before you publish it with your name on it, as you know, that's a reputable publishing house. Don't you think they would have you know had their editors do a pass right before that? I mean, I I don't understand that. You mean I I see both sides of the argument, and there should be some transparency. You know, maybe this poor girl, she she didn't write one bit of it as far as having AI write the book. Maybe it wasn't. Yeah, it could have been a glitch in this AI machine, you know, this AI detector, which again I'm very suspicious of, but her career's over. So I mean it's a cautionary tale.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Yeah. Well, we do have to have mechanisms to certify how much AI is in any kind of document, right? Or any kind of work or any kind of messaging. There has to be that mechanism. So, like even in colleges, colleges have to use some sort of a program to um to measure how much AI is in any given piece of work that a student hands in, right? So, and it's up to them to decide how much is acceptable. Is it gonna be 10% AI is acceptable at this point? I mean, it's like using a calculator for a math test. I think it was all of the norms at the beginning. Oh, yeah, and now it's standard procedure. Yeah. So AI is here to say they just have to decide how much is acceptable and then be able to prove how much was actually used.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Yeah, I I think there will be a market for humanslash AI books where it's gonna, like you said, it's gonna be on the cover. This was human being on the cover. This is human generated, or this was AI generated. You know, and I was listening to a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Uh it was this was human generated.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

So was mine. Um Tim Ferris. I'm a huge uh fan of Tim Ferris's podcast, and they were talking about publishing and AI, and I forget who his guest was, but the guest was like, you know what, human, go out there and start living life. Do you know, do experiences, do it? AI can't replicate that. The feeling of jumping out of an airplane, you know, and going skydiving, or falling in love for the first time, and getting your heart broken, or whatever. AI can't duplicate the nuts and bolts of that. So, you know what? Go out and write a great book. I think that's the way to combat that. Be good at what you do.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

You know, I I don't think AI will ever get to that point.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah, it makes me sad that my my father, for instance, his entire lifelong career, once he arrived in Canada, uh, until he retired at the age of 75, his career is now being taken over by AI. Like he is completely irrelevant. He's obsolete at this point. So he was a mathematician.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Okay, okay. You didn't get that jeep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

But um, he was actually an electrical engineer. Um, he was in estimating, so he worked for a big electrical engineering firm, and his job was to estimate create bids on any given job, and now that is all being taken over by AI.

unknown 43:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah, it like I said, this is the wild west of AI. It's going to generate jobs and it's going to take away jobs. Yeah, and just and like you said before, I mean, the cows are out of the barn. It's here, it's here to stay. So we l we have to learn how to use it to our advantage or get left in the d in the dust. It's that simple. That's the way I see it. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see if there's any other authors that are gonna get. their heads on the chopping block and be publicly shamed and all this other garbly goop that's just no good at all. But yeah, it and again I think Hashat is not taking any onus on this. You think you'd be a little more careful. It's like okay here's this manuscript. Okay, we'll have our editors you know give it a good um go through. So hey whatever. We'll see what happens. Stay tuned. Alright what's next for you?

SPEAKER_00 45:04

So I started writing another book um months and months ago and it's a thriller a little bit different this time. It's okay. So it actually stems from my daughter marrying a boy whose parents whose father was in the pearl business. And that to me was very interesting because um I had once written an article ghost written an article about pearl diving in Tahiti and how dangerous it is and how you know you have to have these skilled divers who go down and hold their breath for so long to find natural like not farmed pearls but naturally occurring pearls and how you know this was like a job that was passed down from generation to generation. Anyway, the whole thing was fascinating to me. So I decided to write a thriller sort of around the pearl industry about this couple that finds this absolutely priceless pearl while on vacation in Tahiti and before you know it all these bad actors are coming out of the woodwork and chasing them trying to get their hands on this pearl and and the story takes off from there. Outstanding love it love it so let's land the plane here yeah let's finish up where can people find out more about you and your books well my website is still up thankfully and that's something Debbielevison.com d-e-b-i-e l-e-b-i-s o n dot com and the books are all up on Amazon bookstores wherever um if they're not in a local bookstore or a library please request it and they can get them in so that would be wonderful and hopefully very soon I'll be back on Facebook and Instagram at Deborah Levison author all right hopefully soon.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Hopefully soon yeah oh gosh so the name of the book is a novel crime go out and get it uh Davi as always it's great having you on the show thank you so much I really appreciate it always great to talk to you thank you everyone for joining me and my special guest bestselling author Deborah Levison for this bonus episode of the Cops and Riders podcast Author Spotlight where I feature an author and their work. I will be back with a regular episode of the Cops and Riders podcast this Sunday. Well that wraps up another episode of the Cops and Riders Podcast. If you haven't done so yet could you take a minute and rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts if you have already thank you. As always thank you for all of your support and of course let's be careful out there