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Cops and Writers is a podcast hosted by retired police sergeant and author, Patrick O'Donnell. The podcast provides valuable insights and humor for crime writers who want to create accurate and believable police stories. O'Donnell conducts in-depth interviews with members of law enforcement and civilian experts, discussing police procedures and culture. He also interviews crime fiction writers and writers from different genres, discussing what works in the ever-changing landscape of book sales and publishing. The podcast offers candid stories told with cop humor and technical details about the world of law enforcement.
Cops and Writers Podcast
Undercover Trooper & ATF Special Agent Jennifer Eskew. Becoming Fire! (Part Two)
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Welcome back, everyone, for the conclusion of my interview with retired ATF Special Agent Jennifer Eskew.
A little about Jennifer. Jennifer (CLARKE) Eskew is a former Virginia State Trooper, a retired ATF Senior Special Agent, an Author, and a subject matter expert in undercover operations, fire and explosion origin and cause determinations, and criminal investigations involving the violent crimes of arson and bombings, armed career criminals, and financial fraud.
Jennifer graduated from the Virginia State Police Academy in 1986, beginning her career as a uniform trooper, then as an undercover trooper. This period of her law enforcement career is the focus of her newly released debut true crime memoir: BECOMING FIRE: Chasing the Passion to Protect, Serve, and Love.
Jennifer became a Special Agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) in 1990. She worked undercover and investigated criminal cases, eventually joining the ATF National Response Team in 1994, becoming a Certified Explosives Specialist and a Certified Fire Investigator. She was involved in many large-scale arson/bombing investigations, including Centennial Park, Sandy Springs double bombings, The Otherside Lounge bombing, and the 9/11 Pentagon terror attack. She’s currently writing her second true-crime memoir, highlighting her undercover casework with ATF.
Please enjoy this fascinating conversation as we focus on her career with the ATF and the dangerous, undercover, and high-profile cases she investigated.
In today’s episode, we discuss:
· Why Jennifer chose a career with the ATF?
· The differences in switching over from state law enforcement to a federal agency.
· Her first undercover role with the ATF.
· Her most memorable assignment was with the ATF.
· Responding to the Pentagon on 9/11 and doing the arduous task of collecting evidence from the plane crash.
· Jennifer’s advice she would give to someone who wants to be a trooper or ATF agent.
· The physical and mental aftermath of agents working at the crash site at the Pentagon.
· Her new book, Becoming Fire: Chasing the Passion to Protect, Serve, and Love: A True Crime Memoir.
· Having the legendary Lt. Joe Kenda blurb her book.
All of this and more on today’s episode of the Cops and Writers podcast.
Please visit Jennifer's website to learn more about her and her book.
Check out my newest book! Police Stories: The Rookie Years - True Crime, Chaos & Life as a Big City Cop!
Head on over to my website!
What's the craziest thing you saw when you were a cop?
My first week on the job, a guy running at me with a butcher knife. He'd just killed his brother over the last hot dog.
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Going to the Pentagon for 9-11 is probably the most memorable and the most important thing I ever did in my career.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Cops and Riders Podcast. Your host, Sergeant Patrick O'Donnell, worked the streets in one of the nation's largest police departments for over 25 years. Ride along with O'Donnell and his expert guests as they help you navigate the oftentimes confusing and misunderstood world of law enforcement. O'Donnell and his guests on this show do not represent any law enforcement agency. The content of this show is not meant to be legal advice. You think you need a lawyer?
SPEAKER_01Hey Cops and Writers, thanks for being here with us today for another episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast. I'm Patrick O'Donnell and it'll be your host for today's show. This show is listener supported, so thanks to all of you who keep the show going. I would especially like to thank those of you who are patrons of the show. Your generosity helps pay for the software, equipment, and my time producing this show. Yes, you too can become a patron for less than a cup of coffee or a pint of Guinness. Just go over on to patreon.com forward slash cops and writers. Welcome back everyone for the conclusion of my interview with retired ATF special agent Jennifer Eskew. A little bit about Jennifer. Jennifer Clark Eskew is a former Virginia State trooper, a retired ATF senior special agent, an author, and subject matter expert in undercover operations, fire and explosive origin, and cause determinations, and criminal investigations involving the violent crimes of arson and bombings, armed career criminals, and financial fraud. Jennifer graduated from the Virginia State Police Academy in 1986, beginning her career as a uniformed trooper, then as an undercover trooper. This time period of law her law enforcement career is the focus of her newly released debut true crime memoir, Becoming Fire, Chasing the Passion to Protect, Serve, and Love. Jennifer became a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in 1990. She worked undercover and investigated criminal cases, eventually joined the ATF National Response Team in 1994, becoming a certified explosive specialist and a certified fire investigator. She was involved in numerous large-scale arson bombing investigations to include Centennial Park, Sandy Springs double bombings, the outer the other side lounge bombing, and the 9-11 Pentagon terror attack. She's currently writing her second true crime memoir highlighting her undercover casework with the ATF. Please enjoy this fascinating conversation as we focus on her career with the ATF and the dangerous undercover and high profile cases she investigated.
SPEAKER_02The DNA is finally coming through. It's middle of 1989, and I get called in by one of the headquarters sergeants, and he asked me, Um, how would I like to work as a full-time undercover? Not not, of course, there's no promotion in it. There's uh two-step increase in pay of about 80 bucks more a month, but you know, and I'm like, yes, yes, yeah, it's my opportunity to just disappear and become somebody new, yeah, to just reinvent myself completely and just not be so caught up in the whole breakup and everybody gossiping and just everything that goes on and just move on. And um I'm I I was ready. Let's let's pack, let's go today. And they go, well, no, it's it it in about a month. Well, in about a month, and that's what we did. And so I ended up assigned um to a different city, different location, got a new name, new social security date of birth, uh, got a uh undercover uh really ragged out Camaro assigned to me. Uh they that that city was working with the state, and they got a female who had finished the academy, they put her in dispatch so she wouldn't be seen and brought her in with me, and we shared a one-bedroom, one bath uh apartment in a housing um uh project, and they just kind of turned us loose and said, Okay, go buy dope. And it doesn't really work that way. It's like we're gonna need some informants, and uh, we stayed there and lived together for six months. Okay. Um we bought a lot of dope. We we found that we couldn't work it together because we kept as we worked together, we kept getting invited to parties, yeah, and guys wanting to just give us like accommodation dope. We weren't making buys, we weren't doing really well with that. But when we separated out and they finally got some informants and they finally got things going, then we could always buy dope. We could, it was a lot easier. And so she was buying all kinds of dope in her area, I was buying all kinds of dope in my area, and it turned out to be the biggest um undercover drug thing that they had ever worked in the central San Anno Valley region up till that point.
SPEAKER_01Is this a part of a task force, like a multi-agency task force, or was it just state police?
SPEAKER_02Originally it was just gonna be the state police and the city of Stanton. And well, after we've been into it for a little bit, they finally convinced um the Augusta County as well as the Waynesboro Police Department, hey, get involved in this is what we got. And we're working these undercover females, and they can buy, we can do. If you've got informants or got some people to target them to, we can do better. And everybody signed on to it and said, Yeah, this will be great. Um, but how you really work it is I went from having one guy watching out for me, me with a body wire, and him following me around at night, you know, trying to do our thing, to now occasionally I had two guys in the car and me. And that was it. And then she had the same thing. She either had one or two people watching out for that isn't much, yeah. No, and that's it because everybody's like, Oh, yeah, we had a tag team, those we had a tag team. I didn't have a tag team. No, I didn't have I had me, I had them, and they were so many blocks away. And I meant I hoped that they knew where I was and that the body wire was still working, and right, yeah, it was a lot of difference.
SPEAKER_01So you're with the state police for how many years?
SPEAKER_02I stayed total of four and a half, and that's when I got the offer to go um to uh ATF.
SPEAKER_01Why ATF? Why go over there?
SPEAKER_02Uh I had a friend that was very insistent that I start looking. He he was really adamant that I wasn't gonna make it with the state police as an agent for 10 years, and it wasn't gonna be because I was female. He said that may play a part. He said, but that's not it. He said, What's gonna be is the the the promotional process is slow and it was gonna he said too slow for you. It's not what you want it now, and you have the ability and you have the you know, you're smart enough. This is what you should be doing. And if this is what you really, really want, this is what's gonna really, really make you happy, then you've got to try it at every angle and take a look at the feds, apply for the feds. So I started going to the federal agencies uh in the city of Norfolk down to the federal building and um getting applications and started typing those out, getting them ready. Um and I looked at uh DEA, ATF, um, let me see, uh Naval Uh Criminal Investigative Service, which I really liked their interviews. I I really like them a lot.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um and a couple of others that I I talked to, Secret Service, at all. And um the FBI kept trying to recruit me, and I I just I didn't. I didn't feel that. And uh I IRS was not my uh I told you, uh they I was trying to figure out how to get out of doing math just for college. There's no way I was going to the IRS is the other one. Uh but it was really treated great. Customs was another one. Yeah, and I got really treated great when I went in and met all these people, and the initial meetings, the initial filling out the paperwork, the initial um interviews with them, all went wonderful. And then as processes go and as money goes with the federal government, some would tell me, hey, look, we're not hiring right now, maybe next year. Or our testing is going to be a year away. You have to do the testing before we can move you any further. A lot of little excuses that kept popping up. Right. Um, so I was kind of down to the last. And it's not that I didn't want to go with ATF, I kind of love the idea of ATF, and I saw them on this TV show and that was coming on late at night in our area because of all this stuff going on in the DC metro area. And it was like, wow, they they are really dynamic. They're doing a lot of stuff with the guns and the gangs, and that's where you can make the most difference. And that I would love to be doing that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um it was just like trying to get them to call me back. It was trying to be like, okay, and they would just stay in touch, call us if anything changes. And so I would every few months, and we'll call you when something comes, but yeah, just let us know if you change phone numbers and okay. And then after a while, you've realized I don't I don't think they're gonna call me back. And uh, I was kind of in that position, and while I was undercover, we ended up bringing in ATF because I was being recruited to buy guns by the gangs that I was working with, and it just the next thing you know, they're calling and they find out about all the work I've done and everything I've been involved in and this undercover thing, and it's like yeah, uh it what would you think of a GS7 and starting in Bristol, Virginia, which was the complete western side of the state, opposite two hours south of Radford, in the southwest in the southwestern Virginia, in the southern Appalachia.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I was a beach trooper. Then I was on that, then I was undercover, but I'm now gonna leave and I'm gonna go to the mountains. And he wasn't saying DC, wasn't saying New York, wasn't saying Jersey, wasn't saying something like that that would have scared me from, you know. He was saying, and I'm thinking, yeah, still in Virginia, still opportunity. So when they offered it, I was like, yeah, uh, that sounds all right to me. And I think it was my exact words. And so when that came, I jumped on it and I was tickled to death. It was like, yay, ATF.
SPEAKER_01So what was your first UC job with ATF?
SPEAKER_02Two weeks after I finished the ATF Academy, so I've been with them a year. Okay, actually a year and a month, a year and a month in total, and two weeks after I go to the academy, um, we had this informant uh that came with one of the uh local county guys that we worked with a lot that did a lot of undercover, a lot, Ross, good guy. And so there's uh uh a biker, and um turns out he marries her just before this event, like three days before, so it's actually his wife, and she was very, very much affiliated with some of the outlaw motorcycle folks in that area.
SPEAKER_01Um what were some of the clubs over there?
SPEAKER_02Um, let's see. Originally it was like the henchmen, uh, but uh a couple more clubs popped up in that area. I I can't even remember the names of them right off the top of my head, but anyway, they were all in that area, and they, you know, they kind of had a loose affiliation. I would call it what the Hells Angels. They were never really tight in any of that, they had their own thing going on, and uh, you know, they had a they had a clubhouse at a place called Boozy Creek. They had a lot of things happening, and so uh with everything that was going on, they were looking, they were out of weed. And at this time, you know, they were wanting pounds, yeah, and they were trying to find pounds of weed. And of course, the whole idea was if they could come up with about 10 to 15 pounds a week, they could move it, but they needed a lot of poundage right now, and so we had 12 pounds that we could sell them, and so we had this deal go at a hotel or a little motel, a little eight-room motel, the Cherokee Inn. And we took over room number four. Um, it was myself and the other undercover guy, Ross, and they were to meet us there. So uh Kalandros, that was the guy that we were dealing with, Mike Kalandros. He shows up to the room. We've got a van out in the parking lot watching us. This is the first time I've ever had a tag team anywhere. Yeah, you know, I got a van full of guys out there, you know, watching us, and everything is going on, it's all good. We're wired up. I'm wearing all of the gear. And um he comes, he's there, and he comes in, introduces himself kind of really quick. And then the first thing out of his mouth is um lift your shirt up, you know, whatever like that, because he wants to see who else wearing a body wire.
SPEAKER_01Oh, sure.
SPEAKER_02Well, my partner he kind of raises his shirt up and shows him, you know, bail his belly or whatever and all. And I'm sitting there because I can't. I've got this NAGRA reel-to-reel recorder that's taped to my back, and I've got like this sort of girdle thing wrapped around me to hold it, and I'm sitting in the chair, and then tucked down in my waistband in the back is I've got a SIG 9mm, and I really I can't do anything. And I've got another body wire that they can hear me out in the van. Uh the Keltech is on me. So there's not I cannot raise my shirt no matter what. I'm surprised the room wouldn't be wired up. The room is got a wire in it too, but they we've got everything, and they, you know, we're sitting right there. It's just a simple small motel room. It's nothing much.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02So when he says that, I looked at him and said, I ain't looked at my shirt for no damn body. And you the look on his face was like, and then he kind of realized he thinks he might have insulted me, but then he's like looking back at uh Ross, my undercover partner, because I think he's like, Oh shit, I did well, well, okay, never, you know. So he's trying to like apologize, whatever. Well, as he's going into the sort of like, oh, okay, no, no, no, no problem, you know, whatever. I said, Did you bring a gun? Because I saw his gun tucked in his waistband when he raised his shirt, because he kind of pulled his shirt up just a little bit, like he was, you know, being cool with us. And so he says, Yes. I said, I can't believe you brought a gun to this deal. You know, what I'm doing is I'm taught, I'm talking, and that body wire is picking it up, and those guys are sitting in the surveillance van, are hearing it. They now know he's armed. It's not just myself and my undercover partner that are carrying guns. The bad guy has brought a gun to this deal. There is a gun that we need to be concerned about in this room and stuff. And I get him talking about it, to which he chats, and then my partner's talking to him. Thanks, everybody's really cool about it. And I'm like, You boys and your toys, I cannot believe you brought a gun. I don't know what's wrong with you, boy. You know, and I just do that. I'm trying to be sure you heard it. They got it. Um, he gives the signal to his partner to bring the cash money, and I'm trying to remember how he did that, but I think he just used our motel room phone because there's really no other way. Right. He steps out of the porch, because there's a little porch on this eight-room motel, and he's out there for a little bit, you know, all of a sudden, this um she's driving a green jaguar, so she drags up drives up, and that's her. Um, and so Donna is her name, but she comes to the room and she brings us, I forget exactly how much cash we did get for that. It was quite a bit. You know, um, probably 15,000 or something, but it was a lot of cash for that that night. Um as soon as the deal is done, though, and everything is good to go, and they're starting to load up because they've got pounds of this stuff to like get out to the car and and put it in, and we've got them in garbage bags and stuff, uh, because we had 12 pounds of the weed. Um we've given the signal. Uh Ross gave the signal, so that meant that the TAC team that they're supposed to hit the door. Come on in, yeah. And while we're all standing in the room, and Hav and I both know that it's just a matter of a few seconds, then the door's gonna come crashing in. And about that time, you hear the police, police boom. Except they're not in our room. They've just knocked the door in on room three. And we've been in room four all night. That's where everybody's focus is at. And it's like, so now the deer in headlight, everybody is staring at everybody else, going, what the hell? What the heck? Because you can see it everything, and then like two seconds, and then suddenly the guys are coming in our room, and you can still hear the commotion going, you know, in the other room.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's funny.
SPEAKER_02And we're all getting on ground because everybody's being arrested, so everybody's giving everybody the look of you screwed us over. No, you screwed us over. You can see that little you know thing going on, everything. So we're all you know, everybody's getting arrested. And at the same time, you're just like, they kicked the room, they kicked the room next door, they kicked the door on this thing, and everything. So it was um, it was just one of those moments. It it it went fine. It's funny later at that particular moment. It had that sort of heart stopping, oh hell. Because who's gonna pull a gun first? Right, yeah, absolutely. But nobody does, everybody just stands there very that's funny for your first like UC job.
SPEAKER_01That's funny. I like that.
SPEAKER_02Very first one.
SPEAKER_01And uh what was the most memorable assignment you had with the ATF? What sticks in your head the best or mo worst, depending how you look at it?
SPEAKER_02You know, that kind of gets in the whole like everything. On an undercover deal, of course, I did a murder for hire back in 93, but um on a job on a on an investigation level, um, going to the Pentagon uh for 9-11 is probably uh the most memorable and the most um important thing I ever did um in my career. Uh just doing that work there.
SPEAKER_01Um was that evidence collection or what what was your task?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Uh yeah. I was with the national response team for uh 23 years while I was with ATF. I was with them 28, but I was on the national response team for 23 as a part-time member, and so I became a certified fire investigator and a certified explosive specialist.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02And I ended up at a lot of things from the Centennial Park Olympics, um, and just uh all the different bombings there with um uh uh Eric Rudolph. But uh 9-11 is probably the most impactful, the most um I don't really it's hard to put that in words. You know, that day was hard for everybody that had to go anywhere from New York to Pentagon to Pennsylvania, uh, to everybody that was ever impacted on that or or affected by it in any way, or a part of it in any way.
SPEAKER_01How soon after the plane went into the Pentagon did you receive? Okay, that um was it days or was it week?
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, 9-11. We went that day, we we responded that day, that Tuesday. We um we got the calls. Of course, you know, phone lines were going down, everything was kind of weird and stuff, but we got the call, and they were telling us me and another guy in the office were NRT, and they said, Go to New York. And we were going to New York, and we knew we had friends in Roanoke and in Knoxville and Chattanooga, they were also on the team in Nashville, and then we were all headed to New York, we were going that way, and uh everybody was trying to grab their gear, and they were like, just you're gonna be gone. We don't know when you're coming home. Just go, just bring everything, bring everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so um, you're just throwing it all into your bags, and you're just you're going. And uh, we were just north of Roanoke when they were trying to reach us on the radio, and somebody was able to get to a payphone there. We all pulled over, filled up with gas. If you hadn't filled up uh before, fill up again, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um use that, use your brake wisely because it's only going to be a couple of minutes. And uh they said, reroute, go to the Pentagon. New York is closed. Like that you're taking it on. New York City is closed. Like really, you know, and of course, we're you know, little pieces of information are coming to us. People are telling us, hey, look, they've shut down LA, they've shut down this, they've shut down that, and you're just like, wow. So we continued our drive on, and we got to the Pentagon. I said, and a normal drive had been a six-hour thing. We got there a lot faster than that because we had troopers running in front of us. In fact, they were driving way faster than our cars allowed, our governor was on them. But um, and the truck drivers were getting out of the way and all. I I want to say we made it there. It's between two and three o'clock in the afternoon, maybe, maybe sooner, maybe two o'clock. I don't know. It was it was it was earlier, much earlier. The smoke, everything was still going on, it was still yeah, still very much an active, horrible scene, and you're still trying to get as much information as you can from radios and from people and and what's happening in in the world. Um, so we were there. And we were gearing up and getting ready because we were ready, whatever they wanted us to do, and getting our stuff set up and what just whatever was going to be. And they started talking about it, what we were going to do, and this back and forth about how many they're going to need. And they really needed like 50 of us. Of course, I think they would have used all of us if they could have, but at that point, it's this whole who's who's in charge thing. And it definitely wasn't us. And then uh you had people that had to go to New York City, and you had people that had to be in Shanksville, and uh, we had people going in all those directions. Plus, we had um our offices were in, I think it was World Trade Center 6 or something like that in New York City. So you've got a whole lot of folks that we don't nobody has accounted for, you know, everything is just so fluid and so chaotic. Um and then we stayed. We were there and we worked it for the next several weeks uh at the Pentagon. We did exactly like what they were doing in uh um New York, just not to that scale, of course, but we were doing it. Uh they had us going in first to clean out corridor C because the jet were already gone through, and then the rear landing gear had hit and had punched out a wall in into corridor C, and that's where like so much debris and so many things were there. So we were collecting all of that. Uh one of the very first things we found was um my uh friend Joe Mann found a piece of shirt. Well, my friend Donna Slesser, she overturned what appeared to be a portion of a seat, an airline seat.
SPEAKER_03Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02And with that, there was this piece of material that was it was pink. It probably was a white shirt, but it was pink from the like blood stains. And it had the air, it had the pilot's um uh ID clip to it. Oh, so it's like one of the very first things I remember that we located. It was really early on. And of course, there was human remains there that had to be taken and collected, and that was the very first time. That's when you knew you knew what we were about to be doing for the next several weeks that this is what we were doing. And they were on us about finding the block boxes, and they felt like they were inside the building. So we had to go through the punch out wall, and a lot of our guys were getting in there, and we were cutting and doing and trying to get through. And you've got lights, and you're trying to see, and you're trying to get through all this stuff, and inside the building where there's all this water where between the fire departments and the sprinkler heads, so even walking through to get to corridor C, you're in uh water that's already coming up over top the top of your boots, and then you're in the corridor, it's not wet, it's dry, but at the inside the building, you're in muck and mire and burnout stuff, and you can smell the uh I call it diesel, but it's actually uh jet fuel, which is like a kerosene. It's it's like a kerosene. Yep. So you can smell that the burnt stuff, and you this is all permeating everything. And uh, I remember the first day we finished and we've cleaned that whole corridor out, and we're just about done, maybe, and we're taking a break. We're gonna have a couple of Oreo cookies and some water. That's that's what was brought to us, and that was fine. And uh we're gonna stand out of the sun, stand in this one area. And this gentleman comes out of the building, but he comes from the inside of the Pentagon and out towards us in Corridor C. So he's from the inner inner circle, inner part of the Pentagon and all. And um, he's the uh deputy um chief. He's uh uh Paul uh Wolf uh Wolfowitz, I think it is. Okay, he's like the number two guy, like Paul Wolfowitz or something. He's uh he's like the number two guy at the Pentagon. He's it. Wow and he seemed so he looks shook. The man looks shook.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_02But he's in his his you know, gorgeous business suit, the whole thing, and he wanted to come and meet all of us and shake our hands and thank us and stuff, and that's what he did. I mean, and he's standing there, and of course, you know, you're sitting there with Jack Lorio cookie on your teeth, you know. But and you and you, you know, you're shaking hands with the man, and and and just you know, times thank you, you know, and whatever coming out, you know, if this is what we do. And he was just being so pleasant and so humble and very appreciative, I guess is the way to put it. He was very appreciative. And you got that feeling that this man hasn't had any sleep in two days at all. I mean, because this is the 13th. I remember it being the 13th, and I just remember that if I had to decide that somebody had not slept, this man had not slept. This man has been wide awake and been in meetings and been dealing with every event that's going on that whole time. And um, like I said, we did all of that. We got the black boxes because as soon as we got the black boxes, suddenly the FBI let us know that um uh folks think that the building's gonna collapse. Oh shit. And so we gotta get out. So now we gotta get out. And it's like, okay, whatever you guys think. Thanks, guys. We went out. Yeah. Now did you sit down for the good?
SPEAKER_01Did you have the right equipment for the job? Like as far as you know, that's a very toxic environment to be breathing in.
SPEAKER_02We we did. Um we did, and we and we got it and all, but we didn't have it enough uh for what we've had. Uh we have lost three of our agents that worked at the uh at New York City at um that that uh debris, and they were there for a long time, you know, working. We have lost five of our NRT members that were at the Pentagon from uh 9-11 related illnesses as well. Yep. So that's eight so far that we've lost. I'm going to guesstimate only because I do keep up for with our retirees on this, as much as they will allow me to know, or as much as I can help them with getting involved with the World Trade Center Health Program and the uh victim um compensation funds and all.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh we probably had 20, 25 or more that have been ill with some kind of 9-11 related illness. Sure. Um, one of our team leaders for the NRT passed away a year ago, Frank Malter, and uh he had the interstitial lung disease, uh, you know, which is a hard, and that's a very much a 9-11-related illness. There's just a lot of things. But we had the training, we had the gear, we had the stuff. The big thing was, I think, in those first few days, all of that stuff wasn't really right there. Wasn't this, there was a big hurry to hurry up and get this done, hurry up and get this done. And you just sort of make that sort of sacrifice. Yeah, don't worry about it. I'll get a mask when I come back out, I'll get this when I come back out. Or uh, yeah, they're gonna get us some tie back, they don't have any right now, but they're trying to get it here. We'll get that later. Um all the kind of things that go on like that, or and a lot of people got exposed that way because they're you're trying so desperately to do something. Um there's always that thought that you're gonna rescue somebody. Uh, and you know, you don't want to think that that's it's just recovery operations. You want to think that there are that somehow another some miracle that there's gonna be some rescues by somebody, whether it's you SAR, the fire department, whoever it might be, you're just thinking that maybe, maybe there's gonna be a miracle here. And uh so we worked at uh we ended up working at 24 hours a day, 24-7. Um, we split our team, yeah, and uh we sifted every piece of debris that came out of there. So well over five tons, we sift we sifted uh night and day 24-7, down to where you sift it by hand. Uh we had a lot of canine teams that were volunteer folks that brought in their canines. We had uh veterinary services that were out there with us 24-7. They had a uh trailer parked away from us, but over where we could in case something happened to the uh search dogs.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_02Um, we just you worked, you worked and you worked. And we drove the little bobcat skid steers and moved the piles of debris. You sift it with rakes, you sift it with hands. Uh, we moved everything that they said was classified, we put it where they wanted it. We picked up the human remains, we got that out of there. Um it's just everything. Um pieces of the plane.
SPEAKER_01How many um how long were you there doing that?
SPEAKER_02I feel like I was there about three and a half weeks. A lot of us over the time where everybody asked, when did we leave? And we're like, I don't know. Did we leave like the 30th of September? Was it the 27th to the 30th? Yeah, you know, and then because we because some left after us, others were able to come in later to come and finish out that last week of like really cleaning up the gear and cleaning out everything and making sure everything was done, and it was just so much going on. Um I just remember getting sick. I remember having like a sinus sort of infection thing that was going on, and I couldn't, you know, whatever. And I was trying to shake it off. We drove back out to my office there in Bristol to our homes, and I threw all my stuff into the washing machines and have and trying to get all my gear cleaned and get everything ready. And the very next day we got called out. We had to go to Moosick, Pennsylvania for an explosion completely unrelated, anything terror-wise. Uh guy was a guy had explosives, he had a explosive storage place, but he was also making illegal M80s, and he blew himself to smell the greens, and he also severely uh handicapped and and uh um he hurt one of his employees by doing that. Uh that guy got severely injured. So I remember we drove to Moosick, Pennsylvania, and we were there for like a week. So by the time I got home and got back and everything, then I realized I am really sick with something. I've got some kind of sinus, something in it. So I ended up, you know, years later, uh, I got diagnosed with cancer in uh 2021 that was um uh uh 9-11 related uh cancer. I I'm good, I'm perfectly fine. I I did I mine was caught very early, taken care of very early. Uh my doctors did a great job um with everything. And I get my clearance. Uh April is my five-year date, and I'm you know, like I will be good. And uh I'm just looking out for my friends now because I got a lot of them that I want them to get their five year. I want them to get that, you know, get get past these stage three and stage four cancers that they're fighting. And I want everybody else to just stay in charge stay in touch with the doctors and keep your health, you know, you know, get in there and get checked out every year, make sure. What kind of cancer did you wind up with? Oh, I had uterine uh cancer. Um and initially they weren't really counting that one, and then they I guess because it wasn't as many females sort of thing, and then they finally came back and they said, Yeah, you know, we're getting a larger percentage of females that were exposed that are showing up with us that we didn't have before. Um, but like I said, we've seen lung cancers, blood cancers, uh brain cancers, kidney, um, uh, you know, all kinds of things, bladder cancers. There's just a lot of things. There's like 69 cancers that are on the 9-11 related illnesses. Oh my lord. But there are also these other health-related issues that have come up. And like the interstitial lung disease, uh, asthma is one. Um, people that were never, never had that, never dealt with that, who have stayed physically fit their whole life, like people that are just really great at getting out and doing are suddenly having these issues, and it's like, you got asthma.
SPEAKER_01You're like, what? Where did that come from? Yeah. Yeah. Holy cow. Now, yeah, how do you decompress from something like that? How do you, you know, it's like it's horrific. You're on scene, you're doing all this, and I'm sure, you know, you seem like a very task-oriented person, and it's like, let's get this job done. Everybody wants to help, everybody wants to do the right thing, and then all of a sudden, you're pulled away. How do you decompress from all that?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think unfortunately, we learn these wonderful habits as a trooper and and as a cop or whatever, being out there. Uh, you got other duties, there's something else you gotta do. So, hey, maybe I'm gonna get called to something else, so I don't have time to like um don't get caught too much up in this. Just keep moving because you got something else to do. There's other things to do. Other people are counting on you, so don't slow down, don't don't think about it, move on. And I think, yeah, that adds to a lot of issues later on in your life because you suddenly your PTSD, which I I did get diagnosed um through the World Trade Center program with that, um, twitch, it's like, okay, and your suggestion for that is, and it's like, well, uh, yeah. It's like, okay, you're good. And I'm thinking, nope. I said, well, writing helps me, and uh talking about it helps me. Uh encouraging other people to hey, do not just pop open the bottle, you know, and start drinking on these things. Get some help, seek some help, doing whatever and all. I'm not gonna say that I haven't had a couple of drinks every once in a while to just sort of as I call it, press it down, just like just get out of my head doing, but I am not really prone to doing things like to dumb, you know, I I'm I can go months and months and months and not have a drink for any reason. I can be with all my friends and just go, no, I'm not drinking tonight because I just don't. So I'm not prone to drinking. Drugs was never my thing. Um three-card poker is pretty good. I like that. But I'm also I'm also cautious going, um, look, I won a thousand, I've lost a thousand. It's time to leave the table.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's the smart way to do it. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Like, well, I started with a hundred, I'd like to go back with at least ninety, so I feel pretty good, you know. But uh, you know, quit, quit now. So I'm not really prone into those things, but at the same time, you get that stuff and it starts spinning in your head, and you think, and I'll and I think what hurt me more was as a trooper, or in that part of my world, is not being able to fix things that were horrible. Um, you know, not being able to save somebody's life that hurts a lot. Um not being able to take a bad guy off the street before they killed somebody. Right, that bothers you because you know you were right there. You were so close, you almost got them before they did something else. That's more worrisome and it gets in your head if you think on it too much. But there's a point in your career and you remember when you realize you can't fix everything that you just can't. And it doesn't matter how hard you try, it's just not meant to be.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So, what advice would you give to someone who wants to be a trooper or an ATF agent?
SPEAKER_02Um, if it's really what you want to do, then I highly advise you to do it. If you're worried about what kind of college degree to have or what kind of background to have, you know, or anything like that, don't let that get into your head. You know, if you got a degree and it's in computers, great because they can use people with those degrees in law enforcement. If your degree is in journalism, great, because they can use people with writing skills and and ability to get reports and things like that and to understand those aspects of why things should be. If you have a degree in history, it's still fine. It's whatever you want to do to apply yourself because you're going to learn the things you need in a police academy and through field office, field training officers, and also through um uh being on job, the experiences, you're going to learn. The question is: do you have the drive? Do you have the desire? And then if you do, go for it. But don't sit back and tell everybody, I want to do this, but I don't really want to do the running at the academy. That's really not an option. Or I want to do it, but I only want to arrest people who do these things. It's like, no, you have to enforce the laws that have been passed by a legislator and governors or presidents that signed into law. That's the will of the nation, that's how it goes. You don't get to pick and choose on where I'll show up and where I won't show up, or who I will protect and who I won't protect.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02You protect everybody. You had better learn to be. If you haven't learned to be colorblind yet in your life, you need to be because you need to be helping everybody. There shouldn't be somebody that you decided you weren't gonna help or you weren't going to be there for. Because I I didn't have time for that one when I was dealing with people. You know, if if I stop somebody, fine. If I show up in an accident, whoever was there, I'm there to help them. And I, you know, when I was working undercover, I bought from everybody. I didn't care. If you were selling drugs, you were a problem, and you're the problem that the community doesn't need right now. You need to be gone. So I'm here to take care of that problem. That was the job, the assignment. Um, you're supposed to be out there helping everybody. I I guess you okay, you know. That's and that's why I want people to do it. If it's what you want to be, then remember you're out there to help everybody.
SPEAKER_01Good advice. So let's switch gears here. You wrote the book Becoming Fire, Chasing the Passion to Protect, Serve, and Love. Yes, I do. True crime memoir. First question: how impactful was it to have Joe Kender write the forward?
SPEAKER_02Ah, you know what? It was great.
SPEAKER_01I love Joe. I absolutely love him.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it and it it has been really cool. Um, I think the thing was really I I wasn't sure if asking him, since I didn't really know him, my friend knows him really, really, really well, but I don't know the man. And I'm thinking, I don't know if he'd want to do something like that, but I'm gonna ask my friend and see if he thinks he would. And if Joe has any reservations or hesitations about it, don't worry about it. It's not that big a deal, you know. And he asked him, and he was just like, Yeah, sure. I was like, okay. And he goes, now he's busy on Thursday, whatever, like that, but he's gonna that here's he's giving me the email and the phone number. It's like that. I said, Well, I can't call that man and bother him, he doesn't know me. He goes, Send him an email. So I sent him an email on a Saturday morning, and I gave I put like a summarization of just things about the book and about me, and just sort of sent that along, whatever. Well, it's Sunday, we're headed to my grandson's 13th birthday, and I get my friend called me, he goes, Hey, Joe wants to call you. It's like what? He goes, he wants to call you, he's got the forward done, and he goes, He wants to make sure you're okay with it. And I'm like, I just sent that to him yesterday morning. He goes, Yeah, he said he jumped right on it. He goes, You know, Joe. I said, Well, I don't really know Joe except from you. And I said, Um, yeah. So I am be mopping into this birthday party, and I am just grinning from ear to ear. So I'm one, it's good to see everybody, but two, I have got a Ford from Joe Kinda. And it's like, how absolutely cool is this? This is like a bucket list thing. It's like, oh, this is at the top of the bucket list, and uh that worked out great. And I also want to credit my people who did the book blurbs because they are all fascinating people, great writers, all of their own. You know, we you know Scott Morales. Um he's got his own books out there, he's doing excellent, and um, you know, he's been in the law enforcement game for many, many decades. So he's got that experience and that background. Uh so and cops and writers, he's one of the main people that will get back to you to write. So he was great. He supported me on this. Um, there's Tracy Ullman that you don't probably know, and yet she is a writer and she is a producer on these shows. Uh, the serial killer's apprentice is uh she co-authored the book with that, and she also did the documentary with that. And uh that's Dr. Catherine Ramslin and has to do with uh I had her on my show. Yeah. So I mean, there's Tracy. She I was really um amazed, you know, she did that for me and stuff, and then she's got other things that she's worked on. Uh Gacy was her big thing, Devil in Disguise. The the documentary Devil in Disguise, which has now been adapted into a TV show thing. Right. I guess miniseries. And uh just everybody, uh Jay Dobbins. Um, yeah, I love Jay.
SPEAKER_01I had him on the show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, everybody has had this opportunity to meet Jay Dobbins, but me and he and I worked for the same agency together for 20 something years. I was he was East Coast, West Coast sort of thing, just never crossed each other's paths and stuff. But everybody said, hey, reach out. So I reached out to him and uh most gracious, wonderful about doing it. And I said everybody that did that for me was just so gracious to do the book blurbs. And I was I was like, Yeah, this is this is another you know, bucket list thing of these people doing these things for me. And then uh everything else was coming. Now, hey, I'm on your show. Look at that, see?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, see, see how that works. But yeah, you know, I'll back up a little bit to Joe Kenda. I had him on my show, I cold emailed him. Ah, and I thought, well, you know what? I gotta try. You did or or was it a cold? It may have been Steve Gold from Things Police See. You know what? I bet it was Steve Gold. But anyways, you know, I email him and he gets back to me right away. He says, Oh, yeah, that'd be great. And so I want to talk to you first on the phone. And I'm like, Okay. So we're chatting on the phone. Totally got you. My wife. Wife is the biggest Joe Kenda fan on the planet. Really? Cool. And I've got him on speaker. And you know, she's on the couch. I'm in my chair, and she's just like, Oh my god, you're talking to Joe Kenda. I'm like, Yeah. I said, Hey Joe, can you say hi to my wife? Her name's Ruth. Hi, Ruth. How are you? And he's just like, Oh my god, Joe Kenda's talking to me. This is so cool. He was just the nicest guy. And you know, I do the interview, and we're done. I said, Could you do me a favor? And he says, Yeah. And he said, I said, could you leave a phone message for my wife?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She's at work right now. She's gonna answer the phone. So, you know, just leave her a funny, like, you know, phone message. He said, Absolutely. So he calls her right away and he says, This is Joe Kenda. Yeah, I'm coming for you, Ruth. And just she still has it. And I'm just like, that is so cool. What a cool dude.
SPEAKER_02Well, he sent me my um my Ford. He actually did it on an audio recording. And it's like, oh my god, so I have this thing and I can play everything. And so that's my next thing is to get that onto uh an app to do to whatever to put so with the like the little promo advertising and stuff. So telling people you know, buy this book or whatever. But he's um it's pretty fascinating. When you meet him, he's so down to earth, he's such a nice, humble person. I finally got to meet him in October. That's great. But the better thing, well the the better part of Joe is Kathy, and that's just right, yes. She is an absolute hoot. She is so funny, she's got the best sense of humor. Her and I sat together for a couple of hours back in October to sat beside, of course, we're both like getting tired of sitting, you know, at this thing, but we get the chance to get up, and it was a great event. Um, my friend Danny Plott, who was retired from the state police, and Joe Kenda put on this uh talk about the Colonial Parkway murders and the whole Alan Wilmer and how the DNA had come about and the things that went on, but also that case. And they went back to the American Detective Homicide Hunter um episode, which was season five, uh episode one, which is Colonial Parkway Murders. And so they were doing that before an audience of probably, I don't know, good 80 people or so. And it was a great, great place and everything. But I got to know Kathy during this time because she was keeping him in line, you know, get make sure he didn't forget to mention this or mention that, and at the same time, you know, letting people I think it's time for people to get the break so they get to stand up a few minutes and or get a picture with you because you know they like to do that. But uh, she was making these jokes, she was keeping me in stitches over there. She was an absolute dream. Uh, and here recently, I uh I'm kind of the texting buddy of Kathy as well as Joe. Uh, so it's so weird. It was like Kathy will pop out a message. So when she she sent me a message here just a few weeks back, and she goes, Um, I've started reading your book, and I see the similarities between you and Joe already. Then she writes, then she texted me about you know having finished the book and how much she enjoyed it. And I was like, Well, oh my goodness, I got Joe, I got Kathy Kim to saying she liked my book.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So how long did it take you to write that book?
SPEAKER_02Uh if you count the writing and all of the other stuff from the time I started the writing until the time that I actually had a book in hand, five years. Um, but I have a I have a procrastination thing, and I would write, and then and I had a I got a book coach to help me out with these things, but I would write, and the biggest thing was you know, write everything. So I was writing and writing and writing, and then it was like, I got to find an editor, but I need an editor that fits me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's gotta be the right one, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I looked and I found I I narrowed it down to three good ones. Uh one was recommended by Scott, uh that we mentioned Scott Morales, and yeah, I and I and I really I was I was going back and forth and all. And when I finally settled on my one, it had been a year. I had actually taken a year to get it down to three. Um, and I was fine with that. I wasn't rewriting or anything, I just needed to be sure. And then once I jumped in with that that editing process, I didn't want to have this edit thing that got knocked out in 60 days and I was supposed to just live with it. I I wanted to be sure it really flowed and that it really had the impact that I wanted. And I also had to come to that realization: if I'm gonna put the things I really want in my book, then it's not gonna get down to an 80,000-word book. It's going to be 113,000 words, and it's it's going to take that up, but it's not the 180,000 that we started out with. It's down, it's trend, it's shorter, and yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_01What was your process? Did you have like a word count goal every day when you were writing, or how did that work?
SPEAKER_02No, I just started writing my stories. In fact, the first thing that the book coach told me uh uh Susan, she said, uh, I need you to write a story for me and you do me this. Um write the story and I'll let you know if I think I can work with you or oh, she goes, because I get a lot of people who really cannot write write. They don't understand punctuation, they don't understand proper grammar, they do not understand, you know, storytelling. Uh and she said, I I I need to see that much. I said, Okay. So the very first story I wrote is actually chapter 22 in the book. Um, and I had never told that uh incident to anyone. I'd never told anybody about that. Uh, none of my friends. They didn't need to know that, and they didn't need to hear all it. And I I um I wrote that story, I sent it to her, and her comeback was you can write. Cool. She goes, There's no doubt, you can write. And she said, That is a hard story. And I said, Yeah. I said, Well, you're the first person that's heard it in 30 some years. I said, Because I don't uh I don't I I just never told people. Um so it's there, it it came out. She she um um really liked it, and then we worked from there, and I just said, Well, I function as law enforcement, I wrote reports on timelines when the first thing came and how I got to this and how I got to this and what was out here, and that's what I did. I said, Well, I guess I just start from the beginning, and it was like, Well, what's the beginning? You know, and because I had the background in fire with ATF and the national response team and all those kind of things, the the fire thing kind of kept coming along as to what it was gonna name the book, and then that's kind of where we got into becoming fire because Tracy Ullman wrote a TV treatment about me a few years back. Um, unfortunately, uh Peacock did not jump on that, you know, everything. But um, but she did write it and she had named it Girl on Fire. And I had no idea she named it Girl on Fire. So when she's seeing that I have named this my book, Becoming Fire, she goes, Did you know when I named that? And so she sends it to me and it's like, well, I'll be darned, Girl on Fire, and stuff. And I said, Well, book two is gonna be Girl on Fire. There's no doubt in my mind. I don't know what a subtitle will be, but Girl on Fire, and it's gonna be my ATF, mostly my ATF undercover days, but also um uh other cases that I worked on that were significant that were in my office, that weren't necessarily my cases. Um but um the becoming fire just kind of came out of that because it was like, yeah, you can let that spark get get snuffed out, or you can put it out yourself, you know, let somebody else drown it, or you can let that spark grow into a fire and you know, sort of become fire. You let that passion grow.
SPEAKER_01You're self-published, correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um yeah, I spent some time writing letters to literary agents, and I spent time and doing query packages and all of those wonderful things that people say go do. So I I did that. I submitted those and I submitted them all over the place, and I hit up I didn't try Simon and Schuster, big people like that. I tried small and medium, trying to get somebody to write me back and email me back. I did their packages just like they said, and no one wrote me back. Not one person wrote me back, not one person emailed me back, not one person called me or texted me, not nothing. Finally, this little tiny boutique place that I sent um I sent the packages they requested uh to them. She wrote me a very nice email rejection.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But a nice email, personal email rejection, uh, probably a page long. Um the very next day. She had sat down, read through the stuff, and she wrote it, and she basically made it very clear that I should continue with what I was doing, don't quit. Um, that she thought that I it had a lot of potential, but that her um publishing outfit they were too small for what I was working on. Okay. And I didn't take that as an insult, I took that as a compliment. Yeah, absolutely. She took the time. She took the time.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Everybody else, I took it as an insult. It's like, could you at least write an email and said the email could say absolutely not, or no, but they didn't.
SPEAKER_01Y'all, the best rejection is one that gives you feedback. You know, an agent saying, Hey, you know what, you're not exactly what I'm looking for, or this story doesn't, you know, X, Y, or Z, but you might want to consider changing this. You might want to consider doing that. Yeah, I mean, that's constructive, and I know not everybody has time for that, you know, et cetera. But yeah, that's the best, you know, instead of a flat out no or no, you know, email. No response, or yeah, you know, it's like, yeah, tell me why. You know, it's like that the I think that's the best, but yeah, that's just me.
SPEAKER_02I think I'm winning on that end of things right now. I I do feel like I am because uh the book is doing well. The reviews on both um Amazon and on um Goodreads, because I try to tell people, hey, go to Goodreads, go to Goodreads, particularly if you buy the book from me through my site and you want the autograph and all, go please go to Goodreads. I even put it in the back of the book to you know, I put Goodreads as a as one of the places to go to. Um, but the reviews have been really solid, really great. Yeah, they have.
SPEAKER_03I was looking at that.
SPEAKER_02And that that makes me feel good, and I keep getting it. In fact, I think probably one of the nicest compliments has been oh, go to my hometown, and I do, I told you how little tiny my hometown was. So the libraries there, um there's in our county, there's two small libraries, and they set it up so I can do uh book signing at both places. And 80 people show up at my hometown library to get my autograph and my book, and that blows me away because it's like 80 people, and there's a few hundred people in the world. Yeah, that's that's impressive. And there they are, and they're family friends. And the oldest person there is 97, she's known me since I was born. And she was my um Sunday school teacher and my kindergarten teacher, and I grew up with her daughter. I mean, all these things, she's there encouraging me and supporting me, you know. But everybody's there, like family, friends, cousins, you know, everybody's there. It's wonderful. You know, there's a lady there that um she knew my mama when my mama was pregnant with me, and she's you know, telling me, so they're telling me stories about my mom and my daddy, yeah. So this is great. So I'm doing this, and they and somebody comes in and they're telling me, Well, there's no place to park on the street. We had to go along the block three times, and I'm laughing my pop-up. Because it's a two-block town, yeah, and there's no parking left in town for anybody, and I'm just thinking, I I want to get up and go outside and see this, but I've got to sit there and keep doing books. So for the two hours I'm there for three, they're letting people know at the other town that I'm on my way. I'll be there in a few minutes, and I you know when I get there, and there's 20 people just sitting there waiting for me, just as polite as can be. And I recognize I recognize this one face in the on the crowd, and I'm looking at the guy and I'm looking at the guy going, how do I know this guy? And stuff. Well, it's Irv Moran, and he's been retired from ATF for 22 years. Oh, wow. And he's one of those Vietnam vets that's just incredible because he was part of the LERP LE LERP. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, incredible guy, and he is there waiting for me, and he's um uh um wanting my book, and he'd heard about it, and he's coming to my book signing, and he showed up there, and I'm just like, wow. I mean, because I, you know, I probably it's probably been 30 years since I laid eyes on him, or 35 years, yeah. But he's been retired 22, and he shows up that and that was very um, those kind of things are just super flattering, and you just Yeah, that's awesome. They're great moments, it makes you feel so good, and so every time these little events happen, so all these other events have been taking place, and all these other people are going, but at these events, I've got guys now boys I went to school with in high school, and they're grown men, they're my age now in their 60s, and they've shown up for my book signing, and they're getting the book from me, and then I'm getting them wanting to join me on Facebook, and then they're sending me messages on Facebook telling me how much they enjoyed the book, but also that they haven't read a book since high school. And this this is the first book that they've actually read since I think that's awesome, and how much they like it, or guys that knew me when I worked and going, Wow, I I wish, gee, this is wonderful. And they're telling me, you know, this is probably one of the best books about law enforcement, and the the accuracy that you pinpointed with, you know, the days in the state police and all the things that you went through are so much like what I experienced back in my day in my career. And um, it's probably one of the best books I've read in 15, 20 years. This is you you were spot on, and it those things it feels good. Absolutely. I you know, it I I appreciate it uh greatly to hear that.
SPEAKER_01So let's start wrapping this up. We've been gone almost two hours. Um if if you're this is a fun question. I always I like to ask this question. If your book ever goes to the big or small screen, what actress would you want playing you?
SPEAKER_02You know, Sandra Bullock and I are both aging, so it can't be Sandra as much as I like her.
SPEAKER_01Well, time you know, a dead or alive, whatever. We have a time machine, so yeah, don't worry about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm I'm gonna need somewhere between Sandra Bullock and uh Melissa McCarthy.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02I kind of need that mix, you know.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. Perfect. I'm a big Sandra Bullock fan. Yeah I don't know why she married Jesse James, but you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02I guess we'll fun moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess. Not that I have anything against Jesse. I I I watched uh West Coast Choppers all the time.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely.
SPEAKER_01All right, so the name of the book is Becoming Fire, Chasing the Passion to Protect, Serve, and Love. A true crime memoir. Here's it. Here it is. There we go. So where can people go to find out more about you and your book?
SPEAKER_02Okay, if you see my name down here, it's Jennifer Clark Eskew. Now, normally I go by Jennifer Eskew, uh, but I put my that's my name that uh my parents gave me Clark. So I put that on there because I I you know that's from them. Um, you know. Um either www.genniferclarksq.com or you can hit up at jenniferesq958, which was my badge number, 958, and I am on uh YouTube, I'm on Facebook, I am on um uh Instagram. I I didn't have all the social media before all of this. Sure. So I try to remove oh LinkedIn, I'm on there, uh Jennifer SQ or Jennifer SQ author, because we'll stick that on things sometimes. Uh but you can find any of those things and find me that way. And uh if you happen to make a comment or whatever, uh, and you know, if it's as long as it's not a trolling comment, I am one of those people who will respond back to you. I will, I will, you know, I'll reach out, I'll say thank you, I'll say hello, or I'll I'll tag you with a uh blue heart and some fire, you know, little little fire symbols. Just so you know, I I'm paying attention. I'm I'm I'm out here and I'm listening to you. And I've had some people actually I I I guess you call it miniature chat, you know, by posting. You know. Oh, very nice, very nice.
SPEAKER_01All right, well, let's wrap this up. Jennifer, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks everyone for joining us for the conclusion of my interview with author and retired ATF agent Jennifer Eskew. The title of her book, Becoming Fire: Chasing the Passion to Protect, Serve, and Love, a True Crime Memoir. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast. If you haven't done so yet, do you take a minute and rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? If you have already, thank you. As always, thank you for all of your support, and of course, let's be careful out there.
