Cops and Writers Podcast
Cops and Writers is a podcast hosted by retired police sergeant and author, Patrick O'Donnell. The podcast provides valuable insights and humor for crime writers who want to create accurate and believable police stories. O'Donnell conducts in-depth interviews with members of law enforcement and civilian experts, discussing police procedures and culture. He also interviews crime fiction writers and writers from different genres, discussing what works in the ever-changing landscape of book sales and publishing. The podcast offers candid stories told with cop humor and technical details about the world of law enforcement.
Cops and Writers Podcast
DEA Agent J. Todd Scott: From Busting International Drug Dealers to Writing and Producing Dutton Ranch (Part Two)
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Thanks for coming back for the conclusion of my interview with Author, Screenwriter, Producer, and Retired DEA Agent J Todd Scott. Today’s episode, we talk DEA stuff and work our way into Hollywood and books, more specifically, him being a producer and writer for the Yellowstone spinoff, Dutton Ranch.
Todd spent 30 years as a special agent for the DEA, being assigned to multiple locations across the United States and the world. During his time as a special agent, he took part in investigations leading to tons of seized illegal drugs and millions of dollars in illegal drug proceeds. He was part of the first group of agents to be assigned to Haiti for a long-term mission, where he escaped certain death multiple times by the skin of his teeth.
Todd has always had a passion for stories and writing, and pursued this when he retired from federal service.
He’s authored six critically acclaimed crime and thriller novels. He’s also a film/TV producer and screenwriter. His work includes the Lawmen: Bass Reeves, and he is a producer and writer for the spinoff to the massively popular Yellowstone series, Dutton Ranch.
It was a pleasure to get the chance to chat with Todd. He has lived and is living a life that books and movies are made of; now he’s telling the stories.
In today’s episode, we discuss:
· Has legalizing marijuana in some states made things better, worse, or has it made any difference?
· What is the best way to prepare yourself to become a DEA Special Agent, or any other LE officer?
· Writing and being a producer on the new Yellowstone spinoff, Dutton Ranch and Lawmen: Bass Reeves.
· His ‘big break’ in his writing career.
· Yellowstone, why was it such a breakout success?.
· What is his role with The Dutton Ranch?
· How daunting was it to work on Dutton Ranch with all the success of Yellowstone? How he dealt with that.
· Having a full-time snake wrangler on set.
· His advice for anyone wanting to break into the book-writing world or television, or movies.
All of this and more on today’s episode of the Cops and Writers podcast.
Head on over to Todd's website to learn more about him and his work.
Check out my newest book! Police Stories: The Rookie Years - True Crime, Chaos & Life as a Big City Cop!
Head on over to my website!
What's the craziest thing you saw when you were a cop?
My first week on the job, a guy running at me with a butcher knife. He'd just killed his brother over the last hot dog.
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Full-time snake wrangler because you're filming out in Texas and there's rattlesnakes everywhere. And you know, we're out in these fields and in these pastures and whatnot. And so the snake wrangler full-time job was to go around and before we walk anywhere, set up, you know, I think at one point we were up to, you know, more than 60 snakes that he had caught, right?
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Cops and Riders Podcast. Your host, Sergeant Patrick O'Donnell, worked the streets in one of the nation's largest police departments for over 25 years. Ride along with O'Donnell and his expert guests, as they help you navigate the oftentimes confusing and misunderstood world of law enforcement. O'Donnell and his guests on this show do not represent any law enforcement agency. The content of this show is not meant to be legal advice. You think you need a lawyer? You probably do.
SPEAKER_04Hey Cops and Writers, thanks for being here with us today for another episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast. I'm Patrick O'Donnell and I'll be your host for today's show. This show is listener supported, so thanks to all of you who keep the show going. I would especially like to thank those of you who are patrons of the show. Your generosity helps pay for the software, equipment, and my time producing this show. Yes, you too can become a patron for less than a cup of coffee or a pint of Guinness. Just go over on to patreon.com forward slash cops and coming back for the conclusion of my interview with author, screenwriter, producer, and retired DEA agent Jay Todd Scott. Today's episode we talked DEA stuff and segue into Hollywooden books. More specifically, him being a producer and writer for the Yellowstone spin-off Dutton Ranch. Todd spent 30 years as a special agent for the DA being assigned to multiple locations across the United States and the world. During his time as a special agent, he took part in investigations leading to tons of seized illegal drugs and millions of dollars in illegal drug proceeds. He was a part of the first group of agents to be assigned to Haiti for a long-term mission where he escaped certain death multiple times by the skin of his teeth. Todd has always had a passion for stories and writing and pursued this when he retired from federal service. He's authored six critically acclaimed crime and thriller novels. He's also a film and TV producer and screenwriter. His work includes the lawman, Bass Reeves, and is the producer and writer for the spin-off to the massively popular Yellowstone series Dutton Ranch. It was a pleasure to get a chance to chat with Todd. He has lived and is living a life that books and movies are made of. Now he's telling the stories. We're the best customers in the world for this. And that's you know, illegal drugs, human trafficking, you know, all the way to down to kitty porn for God's sakes. You know, there's there's a need for it, and as nefarious as it is, it's it's occurring, and maybe we should be taking a look at why is that? Yeah. You know, it's you know that you know if you want to, you know, kill a tree, you go you attack the roots. You know, you just don't chop down branches. So it's that's a big part of it, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04And you know, also, you know, people think, well, yeah, they're just you know going after marijuana or you know, even cocaine. You know, in the 80s, people understand. I mean, I remember going to house parties. I went to a little c state college, you know, 10,000 people. There's powder cocaine everywhere you could find it. I mean, people are smoking dope, doing mushrooms, snorting coke. It was it was almost normal. Yeah, and I my eyes were like wide open. I'm like, I knew this in Chicago, but in this little rural community, I was just like, my mind was blown.
SPEAKER_02Right. And there are significant, you know, cartel presence in almost every major, definitely almost every major city, and then in many of the small rural communities as well. This stuff is infiltrated everywhere. I mean, I've been on the job long enough, was on the job long enough to have seen all the drug trends, right? You know, yeah, I've I've seen them come and go, right? And I've seen them return yet again, you know, just as I was retiring, cocaine was making a huge, a huge comeback. Um, you know, I could say that the the weed that you're buying now is nothing like the sort of weed that I was seizing when I first started on this career. It's far more potent, right?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Um but I'm not blind to you know to what where most Americans stance on this is. And you know, I always said if you make something illegal today, well I'll just move on to whatever the next illegal drug is tomorrow in terms of my of my job. Right, you know, it so um you know, but I I think that you know, as a society you pay a cost, whether you pay it to someone like me, you know, out trying to stop it, or you pay it to rehabilitation centers, or you pay it in any number of ways. So, you know, ultimately the drug problem is a is a societal problem, and you're gonna pay a cost to fix that problem. It's just what what cost you want to pay.
SPEAKER_04And you have to acknowledge that it is a problem before anything's gonna happen. And a lot of people just have their heads buried in the sand, and it's not just you know, like cocaine or marijuana, you know, like when I started, it was all crack we call it the crack wars, it was the 90s, you know. In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, crack cocaine was king. There was some heroin, you know, and then you're also gonna have some ecstasy or whatever, you know, sprinkled in here and there, but crack was the biggie. And when I left in 2020, heroin was just surging. I mean, that was huge. They had an oxy, you know, just street level pills, but you know, then also you're gonna have counterfeit medication, you know, that you know is made in some lab somewhere, not under like FDA, you know, guidelines. You know, it's it's you know, fentanyl. These kids are overdosing because they're they think they're taking like an Adderall.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, or whatever.
SPEAKER_04And hey, holy shit, this is an Adderall, you know, Houston, we got a problem. Before you know it, they're overdosing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think the messaging on that, I mean, the last numbers I've seen indicate that that the you know overdoses have actually decreased again, I think for the second or third year running. And you know, I think the messaging about that has gotten out that you know the sort of overdoses we were seeing where kids were just taking a random pill and you know, crossing their fingers. I think that some of the overdose, I mean, first of all, Narcan availability has helped, and then secondly, I think the the messaging about you're really playing through Russian roulette if you take some of these pills has gotten out as well, too. Or at least I want to believe so.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. And there's always the debate about legalizing marijuana. I mean, federally it's illegal, but some states are superseding that and they have their own rules with that, you know, either medicinal or medical or you know, recreational or whatever the case may be. You know, do you think it's made things better, worse, or has it made any difference?
SPEAKER_02I think it's made things confusing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, and and I would say that that in many respects we lost the messaging on on marijuana. Um you know, well-funded marijuana advocates, you know, in terms of you know, refer referring to it as medicine and all of that, I I think has made it real fuzzy around marijuana specifically. Um and I think the overreaction uh, again, uh about marijuana specifically, about how uh its effects on you, the kind of the the the the worst case scenario of what could happen if you if you take marijuana, right? Like I don't think we did ourselves a lot of favors um by demonizing it as much as we we did um at times and stuck in general messaging, but right um, you know, I think it's I think it's could confusing is where is where we've left it. And um, but I think uh a large number of of our fellow citizens feel it's not that bad, not as bad as alcohol, that maybe it's a medicine, and you know, um I think that's just where we are as a society with it right now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, I don't know either. All I know is it doesn't make you smarter or motivated, that's for sure. I knew kids, you know, in college. I had clo I had classmates, roommates that started out all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed when they started, they smoked a ton of dope, and then before you know it, they're just zombies. And they're you know, they packed on 20, 30 pounds and they're playing video games and just watching TV all day, and they just didn't go to class. You know, it just I think it depends on the person. Sure. Some people with addictive personalities, it can be a gateway, and other people, I don't think it it's the same as having a beer, but I'm not gonna say as harmless as a beer because alcohol is still a drug, but you know, do we want to add more drugs? I mean, I I don't know. You know, and then I have friends that yeah, then I got buddies that are like, oh, it's from Mother Earth. It's you know, like, well, poison come from comes from Mother Earth too, you know. Just because it was in the ground doesn't mean it's good for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, I I I you know, I I again I think that I know where most of America feels about this, but I also know that most heroin addicts don't just start with heroin, they start with marijuana, right? And it doesn't mean that all marijuana users become heroin addicts, but I haven't met a heroin user yet that wasn't an originally a marijuana user. So um, you know, in a in a world where we already have bad enough stuff, I mean alcohol and other things, right? I'm not sure that we just want to legalize an even greater number of these um vices, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Um and also, you know, it's like okay, let's legalize it, but to buy it legally, it's expensive. It's real expensive. You know, there's all kinds of taxes on it, it's like cigarettes. Right.
SPEAKER_02And then if and then if you leave again, it's kind of what I said, it's a it's a societal, you have to pay for the problem. So if you legalize it, now you've got to ask yourself about testing for people who are driving buses and flying planes, and right all the sorts of things we already have to deal with with with alcohol. So, you know, I have my personal stance, it served me well through my uh life and career, and uh, but I know that um the world is a little bit different now on it than it was when I started.
SPEAKER_04No, you you have a great point of view because I never heard somebody say confusion, and that's 100% spot on, I think. Yeah, so that's that's that's I'm glad I asked the question. So what do you miss most about being a cop, about being in the DEA?
SPEAKER_02Um, I miss the sense of cor camaraderie. I mean, I I I it's probably not a good thing, but I always had a a very us versus them mentality. There were people that did the thing that I did, you know, carried a badge and gun, and then there was everyone else. And so that feeling of having a mission, of of being on a mission with other uh like-minded people, that sense of community and camaraderie, um, feeling like I was doing something that very few people in the world could do or ever had the opportunity to do, you know. Um I felt very blessed and fortunate to have the career that I had. So uh I miss all of it, actually. I mean, I I mean I'm I'm I miss all of it. Um, but I also know that you know my time to do it was um winding down.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Now, what would you say to your kids if they came to you and said, hey dad, I'm gonna join the DEA or another law enforcement agency?
SPEAKER_02You know, I think that it's a different era for law enforcement in general. I mean, I think that you know it's like that comic book saying, you know, with great, you know, power comes great responsibility. And I do believe that, you know, if you carry a badge and gun for a living, you have tremendous uh authority. Um and I think we have to be transparent in law enforcement about what we do and how we do it, as transparent as we can.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I do believe that we're civil servants and our job is to help our our you know, our fellow citizens and to make the world safer. That's fundamentally our job, is to make the world and make our communities safer. Um, and if you're doing the job for anything other than that, then I don't think you're approaching it with the right mindset. Um it's also a um, you know, you have to be willing to have to sacrifice right? And you kind of have to have that servant attitude about it. You're serving your fellow citizen, and that's not always an easy thing um to do. Um, but there's more scrutiny now at any other time on law enforcement, federal, state, and local, probably well deserved. Um, so as much as I love what I did, and I would choose to do it uh, you know, the same, you know, do it again, you know, I would tell my kids to think long and hard about this sort of career because it really to me it's not a career, it's kind of a calling.
SPEAKER_04Yes, it's a vocation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a vocation, and and it really it's how you live your life. It's not just what you go do every day, it's how you live your life. And um, it can take a toll. Um and so I would just want to be prepare them for this vocation. It's not a job you just go do, you know, it's eight hours a day, come home and and leave it behind, for good, bad, or ill.
SPEAKER_04So if somebody else comes up to you and says, hey, you know what, I'm thinking about becoming a DEA agent or maybe any other law enforcement, how would you what would you say to them would be their best way to prepare for that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I uh there's obviously the baseline things, you gotta be, you know, in shape and healthy and uh, you know, um pass the polygraph and do all that sort of stuff. I think the best way to be prepared is to have a really good uh head on your shoulders, have a really good moral compass, right? And understand that you are um a civil servant and that you're there to make your again, like I said, your community and the state and the world a better place. And so it you know, you have to want to sacrifice to do it, and if you're not willing to sacrifice, then you shouldn't do it.
SPEAKER_04Amen. I think that's spot on. Spot on. So let's switch gears. Let's talk about writing. I love that. And being a producer with the new Yellowstone spin-off, Dalton Ranch, which my wife and I are completely hooked on. We were watching it last night. All right, we couldn't wait for it to start up again because we're both diehard Yellowstone fans, and it's like, all right, cool. We we've finally we got to see Rip and Beth again. This is this is awesome. Yeah, when did you get bit by the writing bug? I know you were talking before that was like maybe a consideration when you were in college. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd always wanted to write, and then I just you know got involved in doing this other really cool thing, being an agent. And I I didn't write seriously for years and years and years and years. And um occasionally I would maybe write a tinker around with a short story or write something, but um, I didn't take it seriously until late in my career, and um the you know, got kind of uh met some folks and and and kind of had my eyes opened, um, kind of reinvigorated my my passion for writing, and I just kind of started writing on my own as kind of a hobby, as kind of a way to um, you know, it was something just for me. Yeah, you know, again, I talk about this job kind of as a vocation, it kind of takes over everything, and and it did. And, you know, so I was a husband and a father and a federal agent, and I didn't have a lot of time to spare, but the little time I had, you know, I wanted to do something that was just for me, and I kind of started writing uh on the side and um um was able to kind of start putting some books together and was very fortunate to get an agent and then kind of get start getting published and just kind of fell into it without any real plan or scheme. Um I think not knowing what I was doing was actually kind of like when I first started DEA, it was helpful because not knowing what I was doing, I would do anything and um kind of taught myself uh how to write novels on my own and and was fortunate enough to start uh selling them.
SPEAKER_04I think that's a real good way of doing it because it's real easy to get discouraged. Because there's you know, you hear the story of I I queried 500 agents and you know two of them sent me replies saying, you know, nice try or whatever. And you you know, you get your you get beat up pretty good, you know, when you're starting this, and it could be real disheartening. It was like, why am I even doing this? Why am I pounding my head against the wall when none of this is actually gonna come to fruition?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I because I didn't have any real plan and because I had a career that I loved, right? I was writing only because I loved writing, and I didn't really care if anyone read it or not. Like I, you know, I was gonna write these stories regardless. And so, you know, I didn't start writing to publish books. I started writing because I wanted to write and I needed to write for me, and then the publishing part of it kind of came later. Um and again, I I was able, because I had a career that I loved, then I kind of was able to not take the publishing uh seriously and not ready, like you said, kind of get defeated because I had a cool thing that I did every day and I had a job I was proud of. So the writing was simply something for me, and if other people liked it, great, and if they didn't, that was okay. Um, so I didn't have to take writing very seriously, and I think that served me well. When I was even after I was had had several books published, I still introduced myself as a federal agent who just happened to write.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_02I I I didn't introduce myself as an author. Um of course that's all I guess that's all I am now, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, you know, an author who used to be a federal agent, you know, that did all kinds of cool stuff, so you got that under your belt. And you know, going back just a little bit, my advice to new cops would be write a journal. It doesn't have to be anything mind-blowing, or you know, it doesn't have to be Moby Dick, it doesn't have to be a super long novel, you know, just maybe once a week or a couple times a week of some like funny, cool, depressing, whatever stories. And I guarantee you, I guarantee you, when you get older and you know you're in our position, man, that would have been cool to have. I have all my memo books. I have a I have this duffel bag packed with 25 years of stuff. You know, I'm so happy I kept all that. And there's people that don't have any record at all, it's just you know, memory and that fades, you know.
SPEAKER_02It fades.
SPEAKER_04Yep. And it's it's cathartic too. I think it's good for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think that you know, the some of the best storytellers are you know cops and guys in the military. I mean, they're just natural at it because you spend a lot of time bullshitting and telling stories, you know. Um, you're sitting in cars, you're sitting on surveillance, you're doing whatever. And um, so you know, I was just started writing the stories that I was telling myself in my head or sharing with my buddies anyway. Um, and I just took the time to write them down on on paper. But I, you know, I did it for me, and then the kind of professional success with it came later.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, I could always tell, you know, who was the better cops with the best report writers. I know that it's like, yeah, you still have to run after bad guys, you know, go really fast in a car, do super cool, dangerous stuff or whatever, but you have to explain, you have to articulate sure why you did. You know, I mean, I would have guys I was a sergeant for 17 years. So if they used force, you know, car chase, blah, blah, blah. I would have to come to the scene. Well, I would anyways, and I have to write a report about it. And so I'm interviewing the cop, and some of them were freaking amazing. The y'all, it's like, here's a piece of paper, you just write it down. And then others, they did everything by the numbers, everything perfectly, but they just couldn't explain it. Couldn't explain it.
SPEAKER_02And and you know, particularly when you're a criminal investigator, and that's really what a federal agent is, it's what our credentials that you know, criminal investigators. Yeah, I mean, you have to tell a story. I mean, that's all you're doing. You have to tell a story to a prosecutor and then to a to a jury, and it has to make sense. And so I'm having to justify why I think this person is a is a, in my case, a drug dealer or, you know, drug trafficker. And so that's just a story. And all those reports and all those things you do put that story together. So, you know, I say I didn't take writing seriously until late in my career, but I was writing a ton before that, you know, every report, every affidavit, everything. And so, you know, starting to write fiction again uh actually wasn't that much of a change.
SPEAKER_04Right. Now, what was your big break or your epiphany when it came to writing?
SPEAKER_02Um, that it was just work. You know, I think the reason I had struggled with it and not, you know, not really taking it too seriously before is I kind of thought writers um, you know, the muse hit them and they just sat down and it came so easy and this that and the thing. And I realized, no, no, that's true. It's just work and just breaking it down into into work a few hundred words a day. And once I realized that it was just a matter of putting one word after another, one sentence after another, and that I could do that, you know, for an hour a day, and then you could end up over time with a book. Well, then it that's it took a lot of the mystery and mystique out of it.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I'm like, oh, this. Is just work. This is, you know, this is once I had a process and I understood that this was just a process, it's not like stories just flowed in and you wrote, you know, they they they ended up fully formed and perfect, you know, that it was a matter of writing and rewriting and tinkering and tinkering. I mean, I I guess part of me intellectually knew that, but it was just taking the time to actually do it, um, making the time to do it. And so that was my epiphany. And then my my breakthrough was the you know the first novel that I sold. I I'm now up to seven.
SPEAKER_04Um which was the first one that you sold, like the like a big one that propelled your career.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was the far, the, the far empty. And that was the first book in a trilogy, uh, Far Empty, High White Sun, Decide Night, uh, a border trilogy. And it involves drugs and drug trafficking, but it's really about a small town sheriff. And um uh, but that border trilogy kind of you know uh was reviewed very well and sold well, and that kind of got me basically my professional writing career and had four more books come after that. I I've moved from some of my earlier crime novels to kind of more thriller and suspense. I you know, I'm kind of widely read, and so I kind of written a bunch of different things. Um, but um, you know, as I started publishing those books and uh they started kind of getting optioned for Hollywood TV shows and movies and that sort of stuff, then I was able to kind of bounce into doing screenwriting, which is you know how I ended up on the TV shows and most recently on Dutt Ranch.
SPEAKER_04Damn. So you went the tr the traditional route of trying to get an agent. How did that happen? Or how many agents did you query, or like how did that come to fruition?
SPEAKER_02You know, I I can't really remember it all. This was uh I didn't query a ton of agents. I mean, I kind of picked a handful. You know, once I had a book done that I thought was pretty good, um, I just looked up online how to query an agent or got writer's digest, you know, which is a magazine, a lot of writers know, and um, you know, kind of figured out how to write a query letter, sent my query letter in, and I got pretty good responses right off my queries. Um, so I knew I could write a decent query letter. It didn't mean I could write a book, but it you know, it meant I could write a query letter. And so I started getting uh requests for you know uh chapters, and that's usually how it works. They ask for a couple chapters and they may then they ask for the whole book. And that all happened, you know, over a couple of year period. And you know, then I got that call that most writers want, which is uh, you know, an agent wanted to speak with me, and um, you know, she really loved uh uh that book at the time and wanted to represent my career, and um I said fine, and so got an agent, and then it was all very traditional. I queried, got an agent. Um, then my agent put that first book out on submission to publishers. That book didn't sell, actually. Um you know that's every mountain is another mountain after her in in publishing. Um and so I was writing a sequel to a book that wasn't selling, and um uh so I had to toss that manuscript aside, and I wrote what became the far empty and sold that in about a three-week period when it went out to New York, New York publishers, and then I was kind of off to the races. And again, all this was going on while I was working at DEA. So I was just doing this at nights and weekends and uh kind of writing these books on the on the side.
SPEAKER_04Now, did you ever think about hybrid or independent publishing?
SPEAKER_02No, and and again, uh you know it's nothing that I wouldn't wouldn't do. Yeah, it's just back then I you know, I I was barely stringing together the time to to write the books. And you know, so I I couldn't imagine taking the time to publish it myself and do all the marketing and you know. Um, so I kind of did the traditional route because that's the only thing that I really thought I could have time or availability to to do. And again, I I kind of just stumbled into this and kind of kept going. You know, I didn't have a plan. Um, but you know, if I had books now that I wanted to hybrid or or or publish on my own that didn't fit my other marketing stuff, then I then I would do it, you know, at the time now. Um so it's you know, definitely a lot of books are published that way, but it's just not not something I thought about at the time.
SPEAKER_04Gotcha. Now, while all this is going on, you're still you know with the DEA, and it's against the rules to have another job, correct? Unless they say it's okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, it's against the rules to have another job, but curiously enough, writing novels um is not really considered another job. Oh my god. Okay. I mean, you know, it's kind of the first amendment. You can say what you want. You can write. Um, but you know, I I was very honest with with the folks that that needed to know at the time. Um, and uh, you know, when the book published, you know, I was already a supervisor, so I wasn't on the street as much anymore. Um, so there was, you know, I had conversations with people that needed to know. And you know, no one was worried about me. I wasn't writing on the job. They all knew it was on my nights and weekends, and if I went to book events, I was taking time off. I was very above-board about all that. Um, and you know, my earlier manuscripts, you know, I was fortunate enough that, you know, we DA has a publication review board. Um, and so you know, those those early books were looked at just to make sure I wasn't giving away, you know, trade secrets. Yeah, that that sort of stuff. But but that was an easy process. DEA made it easy for me to do. And um, you know, and then in terms of uh what I could say on my book jackets about me and what I was doing, I mean DEA DEA had to prove that, but they did, you know, we got language that you know that that they were happy with. And the only thing I had to be careful of is, you know, if I did interviews, um, I had to make clear that I was speaking as a as a writer and not as a DEA agent.
SPEAKER_04Right, not as a representative of the DA, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and I would tell folks, you know, when I was out on a book release tour and I was doing radio hits and things like that, you know, my you know um team would tell them beforehand, look, he he's not don't ask him about marijuana policy, you know, the questions you were asking me earlier, don't ask him because he's not gonna talk about that stuff. And you know, occasionally, you know, uh some radio jock somewhere in Miami would want to, you know, drift into that sort of territory, and I just had to kind of deflect those those questions. So I was very fortunate. DEA was supportive of what I was doing, but I was very upfront about what was going on, and I never took advantage of of them or or my time. Um you know, so you know, and agents they thought it was cool. I mean, uh they only would read the books if I gave them away free.
SPEAKER_04I mean, agents are you know that is so difficult.
SPEAKER_02Cops are cheap, right? And they're like, where are the pictures, right? You know, um they're like, I'm not reading this, it's too long. Um, but you know, uh I didn't talk about it a ton, but those people who knew were very were very supportive of of it.
SPEAKER_04Now, did you ever have any of them busting your chops? It's like, oh yeah, you think you're a writer, huh? You know, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. I mean, they they you you know how uh law enforcement is if they can, you know, start ragging you about something they will, and that was kind of an easy thing to rag on me about books and oh, you're a hunter, and you know. Um, but uh they also kind of thought it was cool because it was it was something quite a bit different than any anyone else was doing, right? Right. And um, you know, so again, I had far more people uh support it than gave me a lot of hell about it, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, I I was asked to give a presentation at a uh Milwaukee Police Retirement Association meeting, and you know, and you don't know what that's a tough crowd, a bunch of old salty, you know, retired cops, and I'm like, oh god, here we go. And you know what? They couldn't have been nicer about it. And you know, of course, your friends are gonna give you shit. But then you have is like, how come I wasn't in that book? You know, you had you know this guy in the book, how come I'm not in there? You know, that it was like, oh, okay, I didn't know there was this interest, but okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's interesting. One of one of the uh sacks that I worked for uh late in my career, I was I was his ASAC, I was his assistant special agent in charge. And um he reached out to me with the with the new TV show that's come out, and he said, I always told you you were the best part-time ASAC I ever had, because he would give me hell about, you know, oh yeah, you're taking a few days off to go on your little book tour, aren't you? Um so he always joked that I was his best part-time ASAC. But um, you know, I was I was fortunate I was able to balance the two things, and um, you know, again, I was writing at night or weekends, and sure. Um, and the when the books would come out, you know, there'd be a I'd take a day or two off or a couple days off and go do some book events and then come back and get right back to work.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Now, your Chris Cherry series of books, those are the most popular, correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the well that they're um, yes, as a trilogy, those first three, yeah, they as a total they are.
SPEAKER_04Why do you think they resonated so well? Why do you think they sold so good?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think because it was uh I was writing about a character that people found really interesting in Chris Cherry, kind of a former football star who comes back home and uh kind of takes over the the department in his small town. I was writing about a very unique part of the country, kind of there around the Rio Grande. In uh, you know, it's around uh Marfa and Alpine was really where the area was, but I fictionalized it a little bit. So it had all the the small town rural stuff, but it was right on the border. Um, you know, and so I had uh you know cartels and criminals and and and DEA, it but it wasn't about my career, but it kind of touched on all those things. And you know, of course, over the three books you get to see Chris go from being a really, really junior deputy who doesn't know anything, uh, to being kind of a you know substantial and well thought of uh sheriff in a very difficult town. So I think it just has all the stuff of a good drama and it has the the reality of someone who did almost all the things that you read about in that book.
SPEAKER_04It's amazing how it's amazing how you know you can have these breakout bestsellers from at these like small town sheriff departments. You know, like look at Longmire. I absolutely loved Longmire. I mean, it's a what a four-deputy or three deputy uh police department and well you know there's a homicide every week. I mean, something's going in going on in your townsheriff, people are dying left and right, but yeah, you gotta you kind of have to have that. But it it was the characters, the writing was really good. Yeah, and you know, to segue to Yellowstone, you know, that was such a breakout success. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe it was the story, the side characters, the actors, and the balance of humor and being serious at the same time. You know, that's something that's rare, I think, uh in television and books these days. I hate to say the word these days, but yeah, it just I've seen some other like spin-offs of police series where like the main series was really good, and then you have a spin-off where the main character is so stoic and never smiles, they're never ball busting, you know, it's 100%, you know, well, this is so serious. You get tired watching it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I think people come to a series for the the hook or the concept or the spectacle. And this is true for be it book TV, whatever. Right. I think they come for that, but they stay for the characters. Yes. And you know, and I I think that's you know, you the reason Yellowstone worked so well for so long is that people love those characters. And, you know, all long-running series, it's ultimately about those characters, and people fall in love with with those characters and want to see them. And it's almost irrelevant at times kind of what they're doing, they just want to see them doing it. And um, you know, I think that's why the Chris Cherry books were were successful because people loved Chris and his, you know, his girlfriend later wife, and they just wanted to see, you know, they the the character, you know, Chris is kind of the anchor point, but there's a whole kind of world of characters that's that cycle around him down there in this little fictional community I built up. And Yellowstone's the the same way. It's the whole constellation of characters that people come back to again and again and again.
SPEAKER_04You know, it's like, okay, you know, Kevin Costner, obviously that's a draw. You know, he was a big name, etc., and he's amazingly good at what he does. But you had all these other side characters with him that were, and I'm like, man, I never even heard of that person, but holy shit, Rip is awesome, Beth is great, you know, and the the the bunkhouse gang, you know, Michael Landon's daughter, Teeter. Yeah, I mean, I would laugh my butt off at the stuff she would. I remember one time she was on the roof of the barn painting, and they're like, How did she get up there? And like, I don't know, and she's talking her teeter language, you know. But there was depth, yeah, there was depth to that character, you know, later on, you know, yeah, there's some real stuff going on here. And you know, and also what I really appreciated and enjoyed about it was there was a balance of not being too preachy, but making valid points without forcing an agenda and letting the viewer make up their own mind. Nothing was shoved down your throat. You know, they show it's like you know, Kevin Costner's, you know, hot younger girlfriend that's the vegetarian.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, just the dinner scenes with I'd be crying because I'd be laughing. It's like they're having duck, and she's like, you know, ducks make for life. And I'm just like, oh my god, this is so clever. I absolutely the writing was spot on, and I think that's missing in Hollywood and books. They it's it gets so preachy, and you know, and it's like you have to believe X, Y, and Z, and that's it. There's only one way to think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and we were we tried very hard in in Dutton Ranch, and of course, only the first couple episodes are out now, but you know, I think we tried very hard in Dutton Ranch to to to be a spiritual successor to Yellowstone. To and we talked a lot about you know themes and it and and that sort of stuff, but I you know, great room full of writers, you know, no one had an agenda that they wanted to that they were pushing. Uh, we simply want to tell a cool story uh with characters that we all uh loved from the original show. And you know, it's uh daunting, obviously, to follow on the footsteps of a of a massive cultural show like Yellowstone. And um, you know, but the so far the the immediate reception has been has been really great. And you know, I feel like we cleared the bar. Um, you know, and um, so I couldn't be couldn't be happier about that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, there's there are still super fans that wear Yellowstone merchandise and sing its praise. It it also it kind of reminds me of the 90s and 2000s with Harley Davidson. You had all these people wearing Harley gear that never sat on a motorcycle in their lives. Yeah. Or whatever. They buy into the whole culture.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's the thing. I mean, there's very few properties that you can work on creatively that have as much cultural relevance as something like Yellowstone does. I mean, nowadays, or not so much now, but in the last few years, there were tons of scripted shows that came out that were very good shows, but they kind of come and go without much uh of a trace afterwards because they just don't stick right in the in cultural contents. And Yellowstone did. And so, you know, there was fan books and magazines about Beth and Rip, you know, that were out long before we wrote the show, right? Sure. Um, so they are just they represent a whole kind of you know ethos, and um, you know, you know when you're working on something like that, that there's gonna be immediate eyes on it. You don't have to find an audience, you don't have to beg people to come watch your show. Uh the minute you know that show premieres, there's gonna be a lot of people's eyes on it. And so it's very rare in this industry to be able to work on a property that's got that much um just kind of you know knowledge, cultural relevance, right? Right. Whether you like the show or hate the show, people know the show exists, and nowadays that's you know half the battle.
SPEAKER_04As a writer or anybody that's like in the entertainment business, you know, you want those super fans, you want those people wearing your stuff. It's free advertising. And you know, they're gonna be talking at the water cooler or on the internet about hey, you know what, what happened last night? Oh yeah, you know, blah, blah, blah. And they're really, really into it. And they talk about the characters like they're real. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we and I hope, yeah, and I hope in this show that we've created some new characters that will have that same kind of you know, traction and that people will want to find out about them and and live with them for a while.
SPEAKER_04Well, you got Annette Banning, you got Ed Harris. I mean, you got some heavy hitters right out of the gate, which is super smart.
SPEAKER_02And you know, both are and both are great, both are great people. Oh, yeah. Uh really loved getting to meet them. And I spent more time with I spent more time with Annette than I did with with Ed, but um, you know, that they're great, you know, and they they inhabit these characters that we create, and they they're they're stars for a reason.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, now I talked about super fans, you know, we all want them. What do you think is the best way to cultivate or get super fans?
SPEAKER_02I don't know that you can. I think that you know, you just have to write. I mean, uh, on on Dutton Ranch, we're writing from a standpoint of, you know, we love those characters too, right? And so we want to honor that legacy. And none of us are Taylor Sheridan, we're not gonna be Taylor Sheridan, but we're just trying to to honor what he created and honor those characters. And and with uh with actors like Kelly Riley and Cole Hauser, who have inhabited those characters for so long, I think you have to give them a lot of, you know, we write the words, but I actually don't care what they say. You know, I I want them to say it because they've had equity in those characters, they've been those characters for so long. You know, uh I you know I'm fine with them changing whatever we wrote on the page um to the way that they know that Rip would say it or they know that Bat would say it, right? Um, so but I I don't know that you can go out and make fans. I think you just make work, you just make stories that you love, and then you hope other people love them too. If we knew how to do that, then we could catch lightning in a bottle every time we make these things, and you don't. Um you just make stuff you like and then hope other people like it too. That's all you can that's all you can ever do.
SPEAKER_04I think it starts with a quality product, and you know, some of it might be luck, but you know, there's a whole lot of blood, sweat, and tears that go into it as well. Now, on the Dutton ran on the Dalton Ranch, what is your role there? Are you a writer? Uh I know you're a producer. Yeah, I'm a writer. What exactly does that look like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm a writer and a producer. So on a show like Dutton Ranch, and and you know, you talked about my first book, you know, The Far Empty. I've had the relationship with the showrunner uh who ran Dutton Ranch since my first book came out. He he read that book, he loved it, he optioned it, wanted to make a TV series, and we got really far down the road on that. It ultimately, like a lot of Hollywood projects, fell apart. But because of that, we've stayed in touch for years, and uh he's kind of been waiting for me to retire um so I could come write full-time if I wanted to. And he gave me the opportunity on Bass Reeves, another Paramount show a few years back, to kind of take dip my toe in it a little bit. He let me come out. I uh took two weeks off work, sat in the writer's room, kind of figured out how a writer's room worked, figured out how a TV show was put together. Um he gave me a script for for um um you know bass reeves, which I which I got to do. Um and so it happened, my retirement came up just at the time that uh Dutton Ranch landed in in his lap, but he he's had a long relationship with Paramount. And you know, he said, Hey, you wanna now that you retire, you want to come work on this show? And I was like, you know, there are a million writers who would kill uh to be on this show. I can't believe that you want to give me this opportunity. Um but you know, he believed in me as a storyteller and he believed in me as a writer, and he figured, look, there's a you know, there's a lot you don't know, but you'll pick it up pretty quick. And um so I got to go out to LA for about six months last year, and uh then I got to go to Texas too for filming. But um, and I was in a room with uh a handful of other great TV writers, everyone's background a little bit different, um, but um, and we got to spend uh those months kind of creating a season, crafting the world, uh creating the storylines, writing and then writing the actual episodes. And um, you know, I my uh I have a credited for a solo episode. It's it's one oh three, it's the episode's coming out next uh week or um so The first two have dropped. My episode 103 comes out next. And then I co-wrote uh episode 108, which will be a little later in the season. Um, so those are my credited episodes. It's kind of how the how the WGA looks at it. But, you know, I was involved, as were all the writers, in writing bits and pieces of every episode and supporting everyone on their scripts. And we all kind of created the story together. So, you know, these titles, you know, producer and and stuff, it's all that's all the the the business side of it. But the reality is we're all just storytellers, and so we spent months last year um telling stories to each other until we actually had to write them down and then make a TV series out of them.
SPEAKER_04Wow, that's that is amazing. That sounds like a writer's dream come true, to tell you the truth.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. No, it was uh I felt very fortunate to uh have that opportunity and I learned a tremendous amount. I you know, I had published six novels by the time I got in that writer's room, and then my seventh novel came out while we were uh just wrapping up the room. Um, so it's not like I hadn't written a ton um, but had not spent a lot of time writing collaboratively as you do in a writer's room. You know, my novels, I just go off and write them by myself, but there you're in a room and you're you know really um pushing hard on story ideas, and you and and you know, you have to convince a whole room that this is a worthy idea. It's not just convince myself. Um, so it's writing in a whole different way. Plus, writing scripts is different than writing novels. Um, so as much writing as I had done, as experienced as I was as a novelist, uh, I still had to learn a lot in the writer's room, and I had great uh mentors and great peers, and um, we had a really good room, and and they're all fantastic, uh, fantastic writers. It's intimidating to work on a show like that. It's equally intimidating to be in a room with a bunch of great uh writers who uh have been successful across film and TV uh for many years.
SPEAKER_04So is there going to be any surprise cameos from uh members of the cast from previous?
SPEAKER_02I cannot uh you know divulge uh much. I think there's gonna be I think there's gonna be a lot of surprises. Um I think there's it it zigs and zags quite a bit. Um, you know, uh you know, we were making changes and and writing up until the very last minute that that that you could. Um so I think there'll be some final decisions made that might even surprise me, you know, on some of the absolute later episodes. But I you know, I think that uh you're gonna get the same level of enjoyment, the same kind of some shot factor out of some of the things we do in Dutton Ranch that uh were done on Yellowstone. At least that's that's the the plan.
SPEAKER_04Well, looking forward to it. Like I said, my wife and I absolutely love it because TV is kind of a wasteland, you know, it's like you you get hooked on a series or whatever, and then you're sad because it comes to an end. And oftentimes spin-offs don't make it, or not many of them make it. I shouldn't say, you know, never, but the it's hard to top it like when the bar is like way up there and you had that rabid fan base, and all of a sudden it's like, all right, here's you know, ripping uh do this now.
SPEAKER_02Right. No, and I you know, I can remember when Chad was talking about the series. Um, you know, I told him, I said, Chad, obviously there's a high chance that we're gonna fail this, right? Like, I mean, we're almost a fool to to do this, to step into a uh a sequel to a beloved, you know, uh series. And I said the fail rate on that's pretty high. Right. I can point to far more you know examples where that fell apart than it was successful. I said, so we you're a fool to do it. I said, but you're a fool not to do it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02You know, how often are you ever gonna get a chance to do something like this? And I said, if you're willing to jump, then I'll jump with you. And um, so um, you know, he did.
SPEAKER_04And any uh funny behind the scenes kind of stories?
SPEAKER_02Well, I you know, I think that it's you know, being on set is great. Um, you know, and we were filming in Texas and we had a um full-time snake wrangler. Um because you're filming out in Texas and there's rattlesnakes everywhere, and and you know, we're out in these fields and in these pastures and and whatnot. And so the snake wrangler full-time job was to go around and before we walk anywhere, set up, film stuff anywhere. And of course, I'm not doing this. There's a talented you know crew that do all this. Um, but you know, he I think at one point we were up to uh you know more than 60 snakes that he had caught, right? And um so that's just the sort of thing you don't think about. But when you're out in that, you know, we shot him beautiful terrain in in Texas, uh, all around um kind of the Fort Worth uh area. Um but there are snakes everywhere, and um that guy's job was to make sure none of us got you know snacked on by snakes, and that was his full-time job. And so you'd be sitting, you'd be at the monitors in Video Village watching, and you'd see out of the corner of your eye the snake wrangler, and you know, he's got his hat on and his boots and his uh snake wrangling stick in his bucket, and he's out there beating the bushes, you know, before we send any anyone over there. And at night, if you're doing a night shoot and you're heading back to your car, his job was to kind of walk ahead of you to make sure that you weren't uh uh again. So um you don't understand how big a production these sorts of things are until you're out, you're out doing it. And um I uh could not be more complimentary about the amazing uh you know, the the hundreds of people who who put these shows together and they shot for months and months and months uh through all sorts of terrain and weather and and everything else, night shoots. Um so um it is uh what you're seeing up on screen looks beautiful, but man, it takes a lot of work to get to get to get it there.
SPEAKER_04And it does look beautiful, you know. Like one big part of the Yellowstone story was the backdrop, obviously. And that was portrayed really well, it was filmed really well, and I gotta say, Dutton Ranch, same thing. You know, it's I even said it to my wife, and like, God, that's just gorgeous. That is so beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, and you're gonna see you're gonna see more and more beautiful shots as as we go.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, you know, when Rip and Um Beth are they take their horses for like they're gonna sleep overnight, you know, whatever, you know, and I'm like, before anything happens, I'm not gonna give anything away, but I'm like, oh, it can't be that good. Something really shitty has to happen to Rip and Beth.
SPEAKER_02They can't have it easy. Come on, Doctor. No, no, it's not a great show if they don't have it easy. And I think that, you know, I think a lot of people were and and and I don't think this gives away, like most people know now, that you know, the move from from Montana down to Texas. Um, you know, I I think that people will find the Texas scenery different but beautiful in its own way, too. And um, you know, the ranch that we used for Dutton Ranch is a is a beautiful property, and um got to spend a lot of time out on it. And um, you know, I think that people they'll miss you know Montana, but I think they will come to love you know our fictional real real Paloma uh down in in uh South Texas, and I think they'll grow to love it. Hope they grow to love it too.
SPEAKER_04Well, I think so. I think I think it's off to a great start, and I don't say that about most TV shows that I watch because you know it doesn't take long before I'm turning it off, and I'm like, God, this just sucks. You know, it just ugh, but no, this is more power to you. I I just hope it keeps on going. So let's start landing the uh plane here for you. Okay. You know, you're a heavy thinker. I can tell you're a very smart guy, and you're a you're very intellectual, and you're a heavy thinker. And I like to ask this question from my thinkers. If you had a billboard that millions could see, what would you put on it? It could be your favorite saying or a quote or anything you'd like.
SPEAKER_02That is a good question. You know, I I this is gonna sound horny.
SPEAKER_01That's okay. Um, but you know, I I think I would have it say believe. Right.
SPEAKER_02I think it's important that you believe in something believing yourself, believe in your family. Um and so, you know, I think sometimes you know you know, i because I don't want to say faith necessarily, but you know, I I think i in the world as complicated and difficult as it is now with so much coming at us at at one time, I think it's easy to lose a lot of faith and belief in things. Um and it's not easy to trust much of what you read or see or hear nowadays. Um but I still think you have to believe in something, right? You know, you have to believe in something or you'll believe anything and or you'll fall for anything. So, you know, I I you know, I I tell my kids, you know, find your passions, find the things that you believe in, and invest your time in those.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_04I like it.
SPEAKER_02And if you do that, then I think you'll find your way.
SPEAKER_04You know what? I I think we're to a point where with AI and technology, it's it's just growing so rapidly that people are reverting back to reading books like a physical book. They're you know, you have kids playing albums on a record player. Yeah, it's kind of like a little bit of a reverse. And I think one of the things that worked with Yellowstone and and your um show is there's basic stuff. Right. And I think people it is like are kind of craving that right now, to tell you the truth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think you know, you need to have kind of a code that you believe in, yes, a way that you conduct and and live your life. And you know, I think the characters in Yellowstone have codes. You may not always agree with them, but they have them. Right. And I just think there's you need to have some some clarity in life, and it can be very difficult to find that nowadays.
SPEAKER_04I completely agree with you. So what's next?
SPEAKER_02Um, well, we'll see, you know, again how um you know Dutton Ranch is received, and uh I have uh I sold a movie last year, actually a feature film, kind of a cops and robbers uh sort of thing.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um so uh some movement is being made on that. I'm working on my next uh book. Uh I have another feature script that's about to go out, and you know, I'm talking to some folks about um more TV stuff. So, you know, I'm a full-time writer and creator now, and so I kind of whatever grabs my and I'm fortunate since I'm coming into this as kind of my second career, I can kind of pick and choose what I want to do. And uh I have that luxury, and so I only want to work on things that that I believe in and want to do, and um, so I kind of take my time in between projects before I dive into something else. And I was just out of LA taking a bunch of meetings and doing a bunch of stuff, and uh so we'll see. I got a lot of irons. Uh we'll see what you know which one I decide to pull out and actually work on.
SPEAKER_04Beautiful. So, what's your advice for anybody wanting to break into the book writing world or you know, television or movies? I know that's a tough nut to crack.
SPEAKER_02I uh it's it's that belief, and you have to believe in yourself and you just have to do the work, and that's all that you can control um is the work. So write the book, write the screenplay, then write the next book and the next screenplay. You know, there is no magic formula. Um, you know, you people will tell you if you do X, Y, and Z, you're definitely gonna break in or break out. The reality is it's the work is all that will ultimately speak for you. So believe in the work and then do the work. And if it's not this book, it's the next one. If it's not that book, it's the one after that, right? Because at the end of the day, all you can do is is control the work and love it. You know, I I've always said I can write a book, and if no one wants to buy it, that's okay. I wrote it because I loved it. And then I'll just go on and write another book. So um just do the work and keep at it because persistence is the only way to have any success really in this industry.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. So the books are The Far Empty, The Side of Night, High White Sun, Lost River, Scar the Sky, The Flock, and Call the Dark. Those are your books. You're working on the Dalton Ranch right now.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_04And I could not be happier. Please keep it going so my wife and I don't have to fight about what we're gonna watch that night. So keep it up, please, and keep it as good as it is or better because it is quality, you know. Like I said before, uh it's a high bar, and it was it's coming from a very well-loved you know series. So, you know, keep that up because you're doing a good job with it. And I know I'm not the only one saying that. So keep at keep better, and uh, where can people find out more about you, your books, or any other projects you're working on? Do you have a website?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have a website. Um, you know, jtodscott.com is my author website. Uh I'm on and from my website, you can find all my social media stuff. I'm on Instagram, things like that. Okay, and then I also have a substack where uh I put out a thing weekly where I kind of just talk about the publishing industry and the Hollywood industry, and it's kind of a little bit insider, you know, what I'm doing, but just kind of what's going on out there as well. So I'm on all those platform things that you know my agents tell me. You know, Hollywood agents tell me I have to do that stuff. Uh, I do it somewhat reluctantly, uh, but that's kind of part of being a you know a full-time, full-time writer. But uh yeah, I'm easily available and I'm out there.
SPEAKER_04All right. Well, Todd, thank you so much for your time. This has been a great interview. Great, thank you. Thanks everyone for joining me for the conclusion of my interview with retired DEA special agent, writer, producer, and all around cool dude, Jay Todd Scott. I have a feeling Todd's career in Hollywood is just starting to take off. I can't wait to see what's next for Todd. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast. If you haven't done so yet, can you take a minute and rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? If you have already, thank you. As always, thank you for all of your support, and of course, let's be careful out there.
