Cops and Writers Podcast
Cops and Writers is a podcast hosted by retired police sergeant and author, Patrick O'Donnell. The podcast provides valuable insights and humor for crime writers who want to create accurate and believable police stories. O'Donnell conducts in-depth interviews with members of law enforcement and civilian experts, discussing police procedures and culture. He also interviews crime fiction writers and writers from different genres, discussing what works in the ever-changing landscape of book sales and publishing. The podcast offers candid stories told with cop humor and technical details about the world of law enforcement.
Cops and Writers Podcast
Savannah Homicide Detective Kevin Grogan: No Greater Honor, No Bigger Failure (Part Two)
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Welcome back, everyone, for the conclusion of my interview with former Savannah Police Homicide Detective Kevin Grogan as we explore one of my favorite places in the world, Savannah, Georgia. Savanah is home to the Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD), some of the best food ever, history, haunted houses and ghost tours, and riverboats. It also has a seedy underbelly, with Kevin as our guide; that’s what we’re going to talk about today.
Kevin Grogan is an Army Combat Veteran and former Savanah Police Department Homicide Detective. He has worked a variety of assignments within the Savanah Police Department, including vice and multi-agency task forces.
Kevin is also a screenwriter, producer, and author of the Savannah True Crime Trilogy, with his latest book, No Greater Honor, No Bigger Failure.
Please enjoy the conclusion of my discussion with someone who has felt the weight of the badge and the ultimate cost it can have on someone.
In today’s episode, we discuss:
· Being on call in the homicide unit.
· Being laser-focused during a homicide investigation.
· The toll of being a homicide detective on your personal life.
· Was there one case that stuck with him forever?
· The ugly ending to his police career in Savannah.
· Kevin’s honesty and ownership of his alcohol abuse.
· His advice for someone considering a career in LE?
· Why he became a writer.
· The Savannah True Crime trilogy.
· His latest book, No Greater Honor: No Bigger Failure (Savannah True Crime Trilogy).
All of this and more on today’s episode of the Cops and Writers podcast.
Check out Kevin's Amazon Author Page!
Head on over to my website!
What's the craziest thing you saw when you were a cop?
My first week on the job, a guy running at me with a butcher knife. He'd just killed his brother over the last hot dog.
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If I was working a murder, I there was nothing else on my mind. All I could think about was trying to catch this guy.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Cops and Riders Podcast. Your host, Sergeant Patrick O'Donnell, worked the streets in one of the nation's largest police departments for over 25 years. Ride along with O'Donnell and his expert guests as they help you navigate the oftentimes confusing and misunderstood world of law enforcement. O'Donnell and his guests on this show do not represent any law enforcement agency. The content of this show is not meant to be legal advice. You think you need a lawyer? You probably do.
SPEAKER_01Hey Cops and Writers, thanks for being here with us today for another episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast. I'm Patrick O'Donnell and I'll be your host for today's show. This show is listener supported, so thanks to all of you who keep the show going. I would especially like to thank those of you who are patrons of the show. Your generosity helps pay for the software, equipment, and my time producing this show. Yes, you too can become a patron for less than a cup of coffee or a pint of Guinness. Just head on over to patreon.com forward slash Copson Rider. Welcome back, everyone, for the conclusion of my interview with former Savannah Police Homicide Detective Kevin Grogan. As we explore one of my favorite places in the world, Savannah, Georgia. Savannah is home to the Savannah College of Art and Design, SCAD, some of the best food ever, history, haunted houses and ghost tours, and river boats. It also has a CD underbelly, with Kevin as our guide. That's what we're going to talk about today. Kevin Grogan is an Army Combat Veteran and former Savannah Police Department homicide detective. He has worked a variety of assignments within the Savannah Police Department, including Vice and Multi-agency Task Forces. Kevin is also a screenwriter, producer, and author of the Savannah True Crime Trilogy with his latest book, No Greater Honor, No Bigger Failure. Please enjoy the conclusion of my discussion with someone who has felt the weight of the badge and the ultimate costs it can have on someone. So, you know, you wanted to become a homicide detective, you made it. Now, it was what was the testing process for a detective, or was there one?
SPEAKER_02There there should be.
SPEAKER_01How big of a unit was the homicide unit?
SPEAKER_02So our homicide unit was technically the violent crime unit. So aggravated assaults, domestic uh violence, uh homicide, any unnatural death or any suspicious death, which was pretty in Georgia's if you're sixty-five and under and don't have a history of medical you know, it needs to be investigated, excuse me. Um but probably fourteen. So we had two teams uh depending on staffing at the time where you know every department has been and will continue to be under staff, but probably about fourteen detectives, two teams working, and we would shift, you know, day shift, night shift, day shift, night shift, on call, off call. You know, you were on call for a week, off call for a week. And when your team was on, you caught all the cases that came in.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, and that's interesting to me because they also put you in violent crime under that umbrella. Whereas like where I work, you know, we have you know, you know, people who would handle the non-fatal shootings. You know, when I would make notifications, I was a street sergeant. It's like, is he dead or not? Well, he's swirling the drain, but he's yeah, he's still with us, and they're like, you're not getting homicide until he's dead. I'm like, oh.
SPEAKER_02But and that, and that's exactly that that's kind of how it worked. However, uh, we worked the shootings from the from the get-go. That changed a little while after I left. They had an aggravated assault unit. We always had a separate robbery unit. Uh, but my thing is there's pluses and minuses to that. I mean, you gotta focus on the hom side, you gotta you gotta focus on the big ones, and that's great if you're not distracted by everything else. But if you're not working the shootings, how do you get the intelligence uh of what's really going on to help you solve your murder? So it's you know, it plus and minus in in both ways that it's done, and I don't think anybody's ever figured out the perfect recipe.
SPEAKER_01Right. So you become a homicide detective, you know, you're working days and nights from you know, you it's a rotation, you know. Are you working like 12 hour days or 10 hour days, or where were you working?
SPEAKER_02I mean, well, the schedule was eight hours. Okay. Okay, so we were scheduled for eight hours, but if I worked less than 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, I wasn't doing anything.
SPEAKER_01See, for us, our uh our detectives, and we had a full-time homicide unit, you know, 24-7, and it was pretty big. And the way it looked for our guys was yeah, you're scheduled eight hours, but you never worked eight hours. And talking to guys that did work homicide, you know, a lot of them stayed nights. You know, we had day shift, early shift, and night shift. They worked nights, so they could go to court on overtime. And you know, because with your teaching is we spend all day in court.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, and and we we mixed, you know, we had a good mix of all that stuff. But you know, I I just remember working days at a time, you know, it's just all kind of a blur.
SPEAKER_01If the trail is hot, you keep going until you, you know, get your guy, or you know, the trail goes cold, you know. And I remember talking to a detective that voluntarily left homicide, which was unheard of. And he said, you know what? I had the best car on the block, I had a super cool boat, I had the biggest, fanciest house, and I was never there to enjoy any of it. My kids don't like me. I never go and see any of their games. I this is wife number two or three, you know, blah blah blah. And that's the stereotypically, that is life of a homicide detective.
SPEAKER_02No, it's it's horrific. And I that's what I was gonna say. I don't really know how to describe it in words except in the in the book, you know. Uh so my new book, No Greater Honor, No Bigger Failure, is about my time in homicide, and it's about what you're talking about there. I and I didn't really even get into how terrible the schedule was. Because the truth is, I didn't want to be anywhere else. You know, working a murder is one of the most uh it's one of the most uh I can't think of the word, probably rewarding all-encompassing things you'll you'll ever do. You know, you just want that's where you wanted to be, and I couldn't rest. I couldn't do or think of anything else. If I was working a murder, I there was nothing else on my mind. All I could think about was trying to catch this guy. And when I did get the breaks, I was drinking, I was whoring, I was, you know, doing whatever I any self-destructive behavior I could to uh which I didn't realize then, but I realize now to compensate for all the things that you know I was going through. And and the toll that that took on my family, uh, is you know, the fact that any of them still speak to me, I mean my ex-wife doesn't, but the fact that my son still speaks to me or anything like that. I'm just I thank God that uh I was able to get through that and and repair some of those relationships because it's not a natural way of life.
SPEAKER_01No, it is not.
SPEAKER_02And I don't say that I don't say that to be discouraging to anybody who wants to get into it, because it's the greatest job there is. There is no greater honor than working a homicide. But what I didn't realize, uh and I I was kind of segue into this not to run off on it, but you know, my time in Baghdad was pretty tough. You know, I'm I'm again, I'm in Soder City in 2003, so there was a lot going on. You know, they blew up the U United Nations building. I was there right before it happened and almost immediately there after. You know, uh Maqmoud Al-Sadr, who was basically credited with starting the insurgency uh in Iraq, that was our he was in our patrol area, so we had a lot of uh contact with the enemy, whoever they were, and they it wasn't like they were wearing uniforms, so it wasn't easy to identify. But I had a tough go of it in in that tour. And when I got back, I went right into police work. Well, the police work that I went into was right in the housing projects of Savannah. Savannah is a very violent city, so the amount of shootings and and that kind of stuff you see, and that's just regular police work, you know. I'm not I'm not crying about it. I'm not I'm not saying that I'm special or or poor me, but I dove right into that. What I never did was took care of the trauma that I had witnessed and experienced. I never even thought of it. I was an old school guy of man, I'm good. Like, even when somebody would ask me, Are you sure you're okay? Yeah, I'm good. Like, what are you talking about? Am I okay? Of course I'm okay. I'm hard, man. I'm a I'm a super tough guy. Well, it turns out uh I learned uh towards the tail of my homicide career, I'm only human. I was nowhere near as tough as I thought I was. So the coping mechanisms that I had developed over the ten years that uh I was working all these cases um and everything that I involved myself in, my coping mechanisms were the most self-destructive behavior you could you know anybody could establish. My drinking was way out of control and I already had uh a proclivity for that anyway. Uh you know, the the so many things that you see in in police it's not uncommon to meet my department or your department, you know, the the infidelity, the thing like that. And don't disagree with me, but I'm not the best looking guy you're ever gonna meet. However, when you say things like, you know, I'm on an ATF task force, I work, you know, I work with the feds, or I'm a homicide detective, chicks dig that, man. I have found that I'm a former homicide detective and I've written a book. That works pretty good too, thank God. But you know, it it's one of those things where you know it I didn't deal and didn't know how to deal with the trauma that I had experienced and it caught up with me. They say it usually untreated trauma catches up with people anywhere between ten years and and whatever. Well, I didn't have to wait for the whatever. It got me right about the ten year mark.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh and I it just came crashing down. I my career ended uh in a DUI in my city vehicle. Uh I wasn't working, but I was a drunk jackass going to refuel for the next day. Uh and it it became a huge so that ended my career. But all of that was just from this catastrophic behavior. Had I not wrecked that day, I would have continued to succeed in my career. I probably would have been a captain somewhere or whatever position I would have risen to, but that accident would have been ten thousand times worse than the one that I actually had was. You know, that that fall was coming, uh, and I just never saw it. I I really never did. It it's one of the things that I there's a chapter in the book where I tell you, you know, hindsight being 2020, I look back and like, ah, that was the moment. But while I was there in it, I wasn't thinking anything. I was okay. I was alright. I had I was in control of things and I was absolutely not in control of anything. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Now how many years into your career did that occur?
SPEAKER_02Ten. Right at it was right at the ten year mark. So like I said, I I got home in 2014 or 2004 and I I wrecked and and destroyed my career and m uh some parts of my life in 2014. Wow.
SPEAKER_01So that happens. Did they arrest you that night?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Was there anybody that you knew?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, there were people present there that I knew and knew well. Uh yeah, I had a big rep at the time, so anybody who stopped there, they knew who the fuck I was. Uh and it was it was a bad thing. But I put them in that position. That was all me. You know, I've had people over the years saying, going, oh my God, I can't believe they locked you up. Bullshit. I ran into the back of somebody. So instantly, there's no cutting me a break. There's no, you know, there's no and and well, I would have found a way. No, you wouldn't. No, you wouldn't. You have to do your job. And and the the guys who responded, the guys and girls who responded to the incident that I created did their job, and I will always appreciate them for doing their job. There was no, you know, there's no hard feelings there. I I was a complete idiot. Uh I did the wrong thing. I violated my oath. I I did all the things that you're not supposed to do. Uh, so I'll I'll never hold the grudge against uh people that did what they were supposed to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was the toughest part about being a sergeant was I would have to go and arrest other cops. You know, it obviously in a situation like that, and every one of them was either they were piled into a into somebody's car on their front lawn, and I'm like, I can't make this go away. You know, there's some cops on the scene, it's like, can you help them out, Sarge? I'm like, how? You know, it's on rails right now. I'm sorry, you know, there's nothing I can do. And every time, except for one, the cops were like, I'm sorry to put you in this position, Sarge. You know, this is me.
SPEAKER_02No, and the thing is, is when you're when you're when we were doing it, there were certain things you could get away with. Uh, you know, you could protect people. Uh way back when that day is so done and gone with YouTube and transparency about everything. And you know, and I'm not cover talking about covering illegal shit. I'm right talking about trying to help people survive in their career. That that's long gone. But again, it was a situation that I created. All right, so I I couldn't ask anybody to try to help me and put your uh career on the line because I was stupid. I'd never ask anybody to do that.
SPEAKER_01Well, and people also have to realize I have cut mega breaks to civilians that I have no clue who they are, but they're just having a really bad night. You know, and it's like I remember one guy, you know, he was we call him pickles, you know, drunk drivers. And you know, he's swerving all over the place. I'm like, oh shit, I gotta pull this guy over. Because where I worked, if you were just out hunting for drunk drivers, you were a coward. Because people are shooting each other, you're and your comrades are in the thick of things while you're gonna process a drunk driving arrest for four hours in a nice cozy wheel.
SPEAKER_02You take yourself out of the street and dump everything on everybody else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it was from the hypocrisy of it, like but the hypocrisy of the whole DUI thing for me. You know, I had driven under the influence of alcohol, I always say, twelve thousand nine hundred and fifty-two times. Now, the twelve thousand nine hundred and fifty second time was a doozy, but I got away with it so many times. You know, it so when I was out on patrol, the last thing I was doing was hunting DUI. Because it's like me riding a speeding ticket. If you've ever seen the way I drive, you know, I'm I'm not such a hypocrite that I'm gonna write a speeding ticket.
SPEAKER_01But that's one thing, and I am a fan for the most part of body cams and squad cams. They've helped cops more than hindered them through the years, but one thing it has done is taken away discretion. I mean, just real quick, I remember we pull a guy over, he's all over the road. You know, again, we don't want to take ourselves out of service, and he literally is coming from his father's uh funeral. You know, he of course he goes on a bender afterwards, and he still has he's got he's showing us like the funeral is the mask card, and I'm like, I'm not gonna arrest this guy. You know, so I threw his keys in the trunk. And yeah, I made sure he had a ride. You know, if I had a body camera, a squad cam, I wouldn't be able to do that. Those days are gone.
SPEAKER_02No, the the the discretion, you know, I was just talking on another podcast about the the power that a patrol officer in America has. You know, you're the first line defense to the Constitution and and all of those things, but what you also are is so you're a public servant. So you got a guy that he broke the law, he was drinking and and he drove his car, but like you said, his dad just died, he went to the funeral. You're a public servant. What what's the bigger service? Locking him up and making his problem worse, or protecting him from himself and getting him out of the situation? To me, that's that's a no-brainer, it's a it's a public service thing. But again, because of all this, oh cops are covering everything up, they lose the discretion to be able to help the general public.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I mean, you and I both, and just from talking to you, I mean, how many times you know there would be a marijuana pipe, there'd be a little nickel bag, there'd be whatever into the sewer it would go, especially if it was a younger person, if they were decent, it's like, why am I gonna screw this kid's life up?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's like yeah, if you can charge him with the misdemeanor instead of the felony or or not at all, you know not at all. I you know, you know as well, if not better, than I do. It all depends on the situation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. You can't be doing that on body camera. You know, you can't have your body camera going like, oh look, here's this little pipe. Yeah, that's not yeah, I'll crush it with the code.
SPEAKER_02I'm thankful that I didn't have a camera. I'm thankful I didn't have a camera following me everywhere. Not that I'm ashamed of anything that I ever did on the case.
SPEAKER_01No, no, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02But the per the perception and the appearance of it. All right, because even a a non even a consensual uh use of force, like where I'm consensually handcuffing somebody, you put that on video, it can look ugly. All right. No, no use of force is ever gonna look good on video, but the way that gets twisted in today's society is it's disgusting, and it makes the guys and girls who are out there uh doing it now, it makes their job so much more difficult. And I've noticed they're not doing it as much.
SPEAKER_01No, the pro the days of proacting proactive policing is down big time. And the people who are gonna suffer the most from that are the ones that are the most vulnerable, the most disadvantaged, the poorest in your community, they're the ones who suffer the greatest. From these social justice warriors who have never been the victim of a crime, who know nothing of what the inner city is actually like, but they're the ones crying the hardest, you know, chanting and blowing whistles and doing stupid ass shit on a regular basis. It just drives me banana cakes. Yeah, it's like you have no clue. When uh when I became a sergeant, you know, I was forced to go to community meetings when I hit day shift. You know, I worked nights for 17 years. There was no community meetings, you know, from midnight to eight or seven pm to you know, whatever. So one thing that I discovered, you're going into the worst neighborhoods in the city, i.e. the country. You never heard one time somebody saying, God, I wish there was less cops. The people who live there. Yeah, they wanted a cop on their front lawn 24-7. That's what they wanted.
SPEAKER_02You know, that it's just No, you're preaching to the choir, and I'm I'm so glad because I've been beating that drum for years. The thing is, the people who complain the most, they're taking away the tools that help police protect the people that need it the most. Yes. And as soon as you take those tools away, you know, it it all falls apart. And and I think, you know, like I said, I started writing about it nine years ago, and unfortunately, what I warned people about nine years ago, a lot of the things we're talking about right now are coming to fruition now. Yeah. You know, the thing is that the experienced police officers that knew how to fight the fight, they're all gone. They've been run off because they they've been fired. You know, the worst thing that could happen to me uh back in my day, you know, I hate to be the old guy to say that, but back in my day, all I had to worry about was was getting killed. All right, and and you know, I prepared myself to not let that happen. Now these guys go out there and they gotta worry about being indicted and going to prison for doing their job. Yeah, that's that's I can't imagine working under that kind of pressure.
SPEAKER_01They're one bad YouTube video away, and it's all about optics. Everything is optics. Optics and not what actually is going on. Yes. Yeah. And those are two totally different things. But but when you were at homicide, let's back up just a little bit. You know, what were your clearance rates in uh when you were doing it?
SPEAKER_02You know, we we were always we were always above the national average. I think the national average is like 80 or 70 something percent. We we're always above that. Uh I think one year when I was there we were 96%. Wow, that's good. Yeah, no, we're some pretty good stuff. But you know how that goes. It it's up and down. One year it's real good, the next year it's real. But to me, the homicide rate is not I don't know why that's used as uh the gauge of an effective police department. Because that I mean that's so sometimes you got it, sometimes you don't. You could be doing the best work ever and still not solve the case because for whatever reason. So that to me is not the rate of what's going on in the city. What I gauge uh violent crime in the city and how safe a city is are non-domestic, aggravated assaults with guns. So shootings. That's what I look at because our murder rate, if it weren't for the trauma one center that we had here in Savannah, it would be 100 a year. But thank God uh the trauma center in Savannah at Memorial Health is so proficient, you know, our our murder rate is usually around between 35 and 40.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh which is still you know, in in some cities, that's like, oh, those are nothing. That's a day in Chicago. Yeah, but in Savannah, that's a big deal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the thing about it too is you know, from the paramedics that are going to work on you in the field to the trauma surgeons at a level one trauma center, your chances are a lot better now than they were 20 years ago with the same injury. And the invest in the invent the invention of quick clot that has saved so many lives. You know, just these types of things help immensely. You know, but the one thing about the murder rate, that's one thing, they can't cook the books as much as they try. Yeah, because I mean I've gone through and it's all successful.
SPEAKER_02Oh, believe me, they try.
SPEAKER_01Oh, they do. I mean, I I had a guy, he was a homeless dude that got into a bum fight with another homeless dude. Homeless dude crushes his skull with a rock and sets him on fire after he's done. This guy was charcoal. And the captain from Homicide comes and he's like, and the lieutenant's there all the I mean, it's a big production because it's next to a hospital. It's under a bridge next to a hospital, so in a pretty decent neighborhood. So yeah, that was that drew a lot of uh attention. It was the middle of the day.
SPEAKER_02And I I just the the ethics of that is how could you go to a scene like that and even imply well, that's accidental.
SPEAKER_01Bullshit. We had this captain, he comes up and he said, you know, we would pull an M number, a murder number for a homicide. You know, the stats were a little bit different, they the way they took care of them. And he said, he looked at the lieutenant, he's like, I'm gonna get an arson investigator out here. He said, you know what? Maybe he, you know, like self-imploded or cut spontaneous combustion. Spontaneous combustion. Everybody started laughing. It's like, is this spinal tap? You see the drummer for spinal tap, you know, and I'm just like, Are you kidding me? Then finally the lieutenant just takes him off to the side. He said, Sir, I'm pulling a number. His head is caved in. That he didn't do that to himself, you know, and and he didn't set himself on fire afterwards.
SPEAKER_02I'm thankful that I never got to the part in my career where I became such an administrator or politician where I had to think, well, how is this statistic going to affect my job? That's I I didn't get to that level of police work, thank God, because I never wanted to think about it. You know, I I was blessed to only worry about right and wrong.
SPEAKER_01So when you were on the job, if you were chief, what what like one or two things would you have done differently?
SPEAKER_02Uh in our department, yeah, I would have uh what needs to be done, and what I would do is shield my department from our politicians. Politicians politics have no place in uh law enforcement as you well know. And I would take the brunt of whatever City Hall had to do. I'd I would nod my head, try to do uh the little things, but I would make sure that my officers knew I supported them and I would encourage them to go out, be proactive, and and keep our city safe. I don't think that happens in American cities anymore. No, I don't think I was so worried about the optics, the image, and and that.
SPEAKER_01Very few chiefs or sheriffs have that attitude where it's like, you know what, yeah, I'll take care of the politics because once you hit chief or sheriff, you're a politician. You're not a cop anymore. You're you're a politician all day long.
SPEAKER_02Just by the nature of it. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01That's that's the nature of the beast. And you can see the good ones and the bad ones where it's like, yeah, I'll fall on that sword. Yeah, I'll take the heat. I'm a big boy. I can do or they'll roll over big shoulders. Yeah, or they'll roll over and it's like, okay, who's the newest kid here? Yeah, you're fired. Look, I did something. Now I did something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, and and now now they let it fall on like who can we hang this on?
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_02And that's usually the lowest level. And and I've seen that happen a few times since I left the department. I've seen people get hung out to dry for not doing anything. It just they just took the heat uh instead of a a chief stepping up and saying, Ah, you're not doing that to my people. Uh that doesn't happen anymore. Uh and the the worst part now is the people who have never done what I consider the job, they're the ones who've been promoted. You know, in Savannah we have a couple guys who were super real police, but now they're in in in a position where they're just trying to hang on, keep the peace so they can get their pension and get out of this rat race of of what this job has become, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's tough. Now, was there a case in your career that kind of stuck in your craw for a long time or is still there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the all of them. And and okay. I mean, you know, if if you've ever been around homicide scenes, they they all stick with you. I can tell you all I can tell you all of their names. I can I can remember uh every image in image uh and injury that was going, but uh I I write about it in the book. There's one I I had five primary. I've worked hundreds of murder scenes but was assigned five primary. I solved the first four or well four of the five. The fifth one, I solved it. I know who did it, but I wasn't able to put the charge on him. Uh and that guy wound up going out and killing two more people because I was ineffective in in catching him. So I I wasn't good enough to make the case. It wasn't that I wasn't good enough, it was just I was so fucked up at the time that uh I didn't put I didn't get it. So then I get in trouble and I'm I leave the department and he goes on to kill two more people. So I gotta live with that for the rest of my life. Uh and that's why, you know, the title of the book is No Bigger Failure. That case is the no bigger failure. So I I I gotta live with that. Uh thankfully my buddy, uh Rob Santura, who's up in Minnesota now, uh, he was able to get them on the other two and got a plea to uh the case that was mine. So it is closed, but there were two other guys involved too, but nobody's ever gonna go back and look at that because you know the case was closed.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_02Uh but you know, it it's something that's going to stick with me and stay with me forever. I mean, I I I know when I closed my eyes the last time that thought's gonna go through my head.
SPEAKER_01So you know, we alluded to this previously, and you were very open about how your career ended, and I appreciate that. Not everybody would be that forthcoming with that type of thing. You know, you get arrested, you go through a legal thing. What happened next? I mean, how do you recover from that? Where does your life take you?
SPEAKER_02Well, let me let me tell you so my DUI that I absolutely did guilty as sin, uh, and I never uh denied it. Now, of course, I hired an attorney and was I was trying to get it reduced to reckless so I could go back to work, even if it wasn't for the department that I was working on, I could have s salvaged my career. But then I got caught into a whirlwind of uh politics. Our district attorney was really trying to make a name. Uh I wound up going to a trial. The trial turned into uh something that movies are made of. An assistant district attorney got up on the stand and lied, saying that I had refused to testify a case, and as a result, that a murderer was able to walk free, which is absolutely not true. It was just horrific. But it took two years, seven months, and thirteen days, not that I was counting, uh, to get to trial. So for two years, I was struggling to make any money because they had indicted me on some trumped up political charges. So it wasn't just the DUI, but they went on to uh charge me with felonies. So unadjudicated felonies, when you get a background check running, nobody's gonna hire you. Right. They're like, well, let us know when that's over and we'll talk to you then. So, you know, my law enforcement career was over and then some. Uh but during that time, uh, you know, I I had some very good friends. Uh I learned a couple different trades to make money, but I started writing. And uh right after my trial and I was acquitted of the bullshit politics, um political charges, I released my first book. That was nine years ago in May. Uh so you know, this is the third in the trilogy. Um you know, I I I've been able to go speak to a lot of groups. Uh I I do private investigations for defense attorneys. So I've been working on both sides because I've been on both sides of the legal system. Both the the angle of locking people up and the angle of being screwed. So I I can relate to a lot of things that I couldn't relate to uh if I didn't have the experiences that I've had. Uh and that has been a blessing in itself because, you know, I used to try to keep people safe by locking bad guys up. Now I go to the bad guys and try to keep them from getting locked up or or doing things uh, you know, I try to encourage anything to get them out of the uh behaviors that they're doing, which is believe me, it's eye-opening. It's it's not something I ever thought I would be doing, but uh I'm thankful every day that I get the opportunity to try and make a difference that way.
SPEAKER_01Now, did you join AA or any other type of support group? I mean, that's a lot of stuff that happened to you.
SPEAKER_02It's a lot of stuff that happened to me. Uh again, you know, the DUI, I absolutely did. Okay. The political craziness that came after it, that was complete horseshit brought on by outside sources, but I opened the door for it. You know, and it so if I hadn't been stupid to begin with, they never would have been able to kick that door open and and come at me that way. So again, I I accept full responsibility for that. But immediately after my accident, uh I got into the program, I went to AA, I went to rehab, you know, because it and then you couldn't tell me I had a drinking problem. I had no problem drinking at all. It was not a problem for me. I I could drink any time I wanted to. Uh, but I do remember the second day being at rehab, they drew they drew this thing on the um on a whiteboard. It was dry erased board, they just drew this bubble of three different types of alcoholics, and it the guy just drew my life on a bar, uh on a board in front of me. I was like, holy shit, maybe I do have a problem. Uh so I quit drinking for about eight years, probably longer than that, maybe eight and a half. Um just because I'm a moron, you know, I drink again, nowhere near to the uh level that I used to. Uh I I tried to monitor it, but I'm I'm your typical alcoholic. I'm like, I got control of this. I got uh I'm trying to prevent that from ever bringing my life crashing down again. But you know, it it's uh it's a struggle. And I used to I used to my dog's struggling at the moment uh barking at me. But he uh he's a Georgia Bulldog, came down here. And by the way, here's a quick little plug coolest thing ever. Got a buddy who's a uh cop in New Britain, Connecticut, all right, and he's now the animal control officer. All right, he runs a a no-kill shelter and he adopts the dogs out. So he's got this great Facebook page where it's all positive things. So the the pound is not the pound, it's a hotel. The animals are not, you know, rejects, they're guests at the hotel. Okay, and he gets them adopted out. So the coolest thing ever is a charity called Paws for or Pilots for Paws.
SPEAKER_01Pilots for the dogs.
SPEAKER_02They took this bulldog who's from Connecticut, they flew him to Virginia, another private pilot flew from Michigan to Virginia, picked up the dog, flew him to Georgia for me to pick him up. So a Connecticut dog or a Connecticut Bulldog became a Georgia Bulldog, which is like royalty down here. Right? Go dogs, sick em. Uh it it's a great thing. And that's a side note, but I had to plug that uh charity because they're phenomenal. If anybody knows anything about pilots for paws, check them out or the New Britain uh animal shelter, donate uh it because they they just do great things, they take care of animals, and I'm I'm a dog guy. So I too sorry for the uh sidetrack, but I think that's okay.
SPEAKER_01No, no problem with that. So let's talk about your writing. You know, your latest book, No Greater Honor, No Bigger Failure, Savannah True Crime Trilogy. That's the third book in the trilogy. That's a great title. I mean, did you know right away? It's like, yeah, this is the title of this book. It's gotta be.
SPEAKER_02No, no, I didn't, not on this one. Uh this one was I it was Dome Rocker for years. So I've been writing this book for ten years. My first two books uh were a lot of fun. Great cop stories, um, very cathartic. I'm telling you all the you know, all the stuff on the street. So anybody who is interested interested in police work, you read those first two books and you're like, hell yeah, because there's foot chases, car pursuits, all all the fun stuff you see in this one is murder, and there's not there was nothing good about it. Uh, you know, anytime I would take my brain back to uh those things, I realized just how sad and hopeless. Because you know what? I solved some murders, but you know what? I never brought anybody back to life. So it it never I never felt like I ever fixed anything. And you know, the whole reason I became a cop was to try to save the world. And you know, I I think all of us that did that learned real early you're not gonna save the world. Uh but I was gonna call it Dome Rocker for the colloquialism of you know, a shot to the head, but also I was gonna I there's always a little city politics mixed into my books. So we call City Hall the Dome, so I was gonna rock the dome a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Uh but then one day I I was looking uh it first of all, nobody associated Dome Rocker with uh gunshot to the head. So I'm like, all right, I gotta think a little more mass on that. But the homicide investigators creed, there is no greater than honor than to be able to basically speak for the dead. Right. Uh you know, to to be the assigned the investig uh investigation of somebody who's been killed and be their voice, there is no greater honor than that. The only argument that I kind of have in my own head is service to our country. But the no bigger failure is uh you know, the case that I talked about. But it's also there's no greater honor than serving your uh city in a government capacity to try to bring your city forward, and the city of Savannah government is failing at that. So they've been voted into a position where there is a lot of honor in it, uh and they're failing miserably at it, just my other side note. But that's where the title comes from.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Now, what do you want people to get out of this book when they're done reading it?
SPEAKER_02So two things. Okay. The the first one is for uh all the true crime enthusiasts and anybody who watches cop shows and stuff like that, these books tell you what it really is. I mean, i if you haven't realized yet, I'm a very straightforward person. I I write the same way I'm talking to you. So I put it out there. So if you ever want a really accurate uh depiction of the way things go, at least from my point of view, it's in there. It's it's very straightforward. And I want somebody who's never been in a police car to feel what it's like. I want retired guys who've been out of it for a long time to read it and feel like they're back in the car uh doing it. The other side of that, and the more important uh thing that I want people to get from my writing is look at me, look at my career, and use it as a precautionary tale of what not to do. Okay, you can have great success and do great things in police work, but if you're not taking care of yourself, you will fail. Okay, and and there's there there's just no other way. Don't make the mistakes that I made. Read the books so you can learn uh my suggestions on how to take care of yourself. Because one of the things they ask you in in a hiring interview is they give you a scenario, okay? You're on your way to a hot call. Uh, what's the most important thing to do? The most important thing to do when there's an officer down across the city is get there safely. If that means going 10 miles an hour and arriving as opposed to wrecking on your way, get do the 10 miles an hour. Take care of yourself on the way. And that's one thing I didn't. I wrecked going to that hot call. I drew resources away from the people that really needed it. Uh, I failed in my mission to accomplish the goal. And I don't want any I know it's going to happen to other people, but if reading my books can keep somebody from making the mistakes that I made, then you know it's a that's a huge success to me.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, let's talk about marketing real quick. That's the one thing authors dread. It's like public speaking or going to the dentist. It's it's no fun. But what are where do you get the best bang for your buck for uh marketing with your books?
SPEAKER_02Uh my thing is that like I sell them the most on Amazon, but uh I I've been blessed. I mean, absolutely blessed. So I wrote my first book and I thought I was gonna give 50 of them away. I wrote the story of my boys, the guys to the left and right of me, and uh I thought I was gonna give 50 of them away, and that was gonna be that. I sold thousands of my first book in the first month. It was unbelievable. It exploded and it was just timing, uh, enough news stories, uh, it got a lot of attention, uh, which was great for me. So I've been able to capitalize on that alone. Yeah, you know, people loved it. It it's it's got great ratings on Amazon. I've been able to get into podcasts and and get on shows like yours, you know. Gentlemen like you give me the opportunity to come talk about them. So that that has worked very well. Uh I have great relationships with local bookstores, so I do a bunch of signings. And again, the Savannah True Crime trilogy. You walk in, that hooks you. Like people I was at uh Nine Line Apparel last weekend and half of the to launch this new book. So half the people there had bought their books on Amazon and they were my buddies, and I signed their books, and that was cool. But the other half were people that were at Black Rifle Coffee and come into Nineline, and as soon as they saw Savannah TrueCheim trilogy, they came to buy 'em. So I I've been blessed. It's a good hook. Uh it's a genre that people are uh obviously very interested in, uh, and I have the coolest titles and covers in the world.
SPEAKER_01You do that, yeah. The titles are awesome, and your covers are very, very striking. I I gotta say. And again, for somebody who loves Savannah like me, I was just like, oh yeah, that takes me back. Yeah, I just I absolutely love them. So, what's your advice? Let's start landing the plane. Let's let's finish this up. What's your advice to somebody who's considering a career in law enforcement?
SPEAKER_02Take care of yourself. First of all, thank you. Uh, anybody who has a call to service, my hat's off to you. Um, especially in today's day and age. People going into law enforcement now, knowing the amount of scrutiny that they're going to be under, because I'm sure they see the news. If they still fill out that application, go through the whole application process, they sign up for it knowing that they're going to be under the scrutiny of that. You know, I I have nothing. But respect for the men and women that are uh out there doing it today. To the people who have been doing it for a while, thank you for uh still showing up to do it. But my advice will always be one, remember integrity counts more than anything. If you compromise your integrity one time, it's over. Alright. And again, with the perception of law enforcement and mass media today, it only takes one screw up to ruin uh your department's uh connection to their community. All right. In order to be effective in law enforcement, your community has to trust you. They have to know that you're going to do what you say you're going to do. So if you say you're gonna get the bad guy, uh then go get him. Don't make promises you're not gonna keep. That that's one that uh I I try to make sure people understand. And you gotta understand it and excuse my language, but there's no better way to say it than don't be an asshole. Treat people the way you would want uh somebody to treat your grandmother. That was always my philosophy on on uh how to operate and it served me well my entire career. Every success that I had is directly related to the way that I spoke to people and the way I treated people. You know, I didn't like everybody, but I was respectful to everybody when they deserved it. Uh you know, you you'll see the times in your career. There are some people that don't deserve respect, but in general, treat everybody fair. Just just be honest about what you're doing and do not chase headlines. Do not make a case to because you think it's gonna be big. Make it because it's the right case and do it the right way.
SPEAKER_01Good words, good words. So what's next for you?
SPEAKER_02Uh hopefully films. Hopefully films. I gotta I gotta I've been trying to break the uh movie world for uh quite some time now. Uh I've I've gone from writing books uh and nonfiction books to screenwriting.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02I have two screenplays that are written uh and one for a short film that's uh hopefully going to serve as a proof of concept. But again, being in Savannah, I have a lot of connections. It's just it's a matter of funding. So here's my sales pitch. You want to talk about marketing? This is this is why you know Kevin Grogan will never be in sales. Because I I said I was a bullshitter as a kid. I'm still pretty good with the uh with the spinning yarn, but I will tell you this the worst investment that you can make uh as a for return on investment is a film. It's a terrible investment. So with that in mind, if you want to invest in my film, give me a call.
SPEAKER_01All right.
SPEAKER_02So we're gonna it it's a it's amazing that nobody's nobody's invested yet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, weird. All right, let's finish this up. Where can people go to find more about you and your books?
SPEAKER_02Uh go go to Amazon for the books. Uh or if you come to the city of Savannah, uh, right now, exclusively the Book Lady bookstore on Historic Liberty Street in Savannah. They have uh a table for me for the Savannah True Crime trilogy. But if you want to know anything about me, you know, you just Google me. I I've been on tons of podcasts. Hope to do many more, you know. If people like you, Sarge, give me the uh opportunity to do so. Uh, you know, I I've had the great privilege of rubbing elbows with Hall of Fame members of the law enforcement community, guys like Jay Dobbins and and Steve Murphy. Oh, just on Game of Crimes. Yeah, he he's what a what a great what a humble guy. I mean, I cut any cop story you go, Murph can just sit there at the end and he's like, Oh yeah, I caught Pablo Escobar.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02That kind of ends the conversation right there. Yeah, no, there's no more measuring contest after that.
SPEAKER_01No, no, and yeah, Steve has become a real good friend of mine. I was just talking to him on the phone yesterday, actually. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02He's a great human being. On top of on top of being what a professional and what a career. On top of that, he's he's a fantastic human being.
SPEAKER_01That he is, that he is. So the name of the book is No Greater Honor, No Bigger Failure. Kevin Grogan, thank you so much for being on the show.
SPEAKER_02Ah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it greatly.
SPEAKER_01Thanks everyone for joining me and former Savannah Police Department homicide detective Kevin Grogan for the conclusion of our interview. Thank you, Kevin, for your honesty and frankness during this conversation. I wish you the best in your future endeavors. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Cops and Riders Podcast. If you haven't done so yet, can you take a minute and rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? If you have already, thank you. As always, thank you for all of your support, and of course, let's be careful out there.
