Bonus Episode! Author Spotlight With Bestselling Thriller & Mystery Author Amy Pease!

Welcome everyone to a bonus episode of the Cops and Writers podcast: author spotlight with bestselling author Amy Pease. Her first bestselling book, Northwoods that is set in northern Wisconsin, is an Amazon Editors' best pick in the mystery, thriller, and suspense categories. Her newest book, Wildwood, is burning up the charts. 

Amy is an alumnus of the University of Wisconsin-Madison Writer’s Studio. Amy is a nurse practitioner, where she is a nationally recognized H.I.V. specialist. 

Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with one of my favorite authors. 

In today’s episode, we discuss:

·      Her award-winning and bestselling book, Northwoods.

·      When did she get bitten by the writing bug?

·      Her being a nurse practitioner, where she is a nationally recognized HIV specialist. How much of her ‘day job’ influences her writing? Or does it?

·      How does she balance or juggle being an NP, mom, wife, and author? What is her secret?

·      What was her path to her bestselling book, Northwoods?

·      How daunting was it for her to write the second book, Wildwood? Did she feel pressure to deliver the same hit?

·      What’s next?

All of this and more on today’s episode of the Cops and Writers podcast.

Go check out Amy's website!

Head on over to my website to learn more about me and my books!

What's the craziest thing you saw when you were a cop?

My first week on the job, a guy running at me with a butcher knife. He'd just killed his brother over the last hot dog.

That's chapter 1. There are 33 more.

Police Stories: The Rookie Years just launched - available on Amazon. 

Search 'Police Stories Patrick O'Donnell' or click th

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome everyone to a bonus episode of the Cops and Writers Podcast, Author Spotlight with best-selling author Amy Pease. Her first best-selling book, Northwoods, that is set in northern Wisconsin, is an Amazon editor's best pick in the mystery, thriller, and suspense categories. Her newest book, Wildwood, is burning up the charts. Amy is an alumnus of the University of Wisconsin-Madison Writer Studio. Amy is also a nurse practitioner where she is a nationally recognized HIV specialist. Please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with one of my favorite authors, Amy Pease. Amy Pease, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. I always enjoy talking to high-speed authors that are a lot further along in their writing journey than little old me. So this is gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

High speed authors. I have not heard that before. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

You are a high-speed author, Amy. Here we go. Let's see what makes ABPs tick.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I've never I've never heard that term used for publishing the publishing industry, at least not to big five publishers.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, you know, in my um former profession, yeah, it's like, yeah, that's a high-speed operator. Yeah, so I just transfer everything over, you know. Hey, I was a musician, I can transpose, you know, that's what I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's start at the beginning. How would you describe your childhood?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Well, okay, so I'm from De Pere, which is a suburb, I guess you could say, of Green Bay. And this would have been in the 80s and early 90s, and it was before the internet, really. You know, yes, there was there were computers, but I remember I didn't have an email address until I started college in 1996. So a lot of the a lot of the issues that we've got these days for kids, and I've got kids, um, just weren't a thing back then. And that made it really good. I and I can't complain, you know, my home life was great, it was stable and everything. And so I don't know that I'd use the word idyllic, but it was pretty darn good.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

See, I consider that up north. I'm from Chicago originally, yeah. So anything like anything north of Lake Geneva was up north to us, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, well, it's a different type of north than the north that I talk about in my books, right? So, and I couldn't even, you know, people uh that are not from Wisconsin would be like, okay, come on. Um, it is a different the Fox Valley is a little bit of a different thing. Interestingly, we have a different accent than down here in Madison, which is where I live now. There's a little bit different accent.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

There is. I I do notice that it is a it's a little bit of a different world, that's for sure. So, mom and dad, what did they do for a living?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Uh, my dad was an optometrist, and my mom was um like administrative. Okay, so your dad was-went back to be a teacher after, but that was when I was in college.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Your dad was in the medical field, so and you are in the medical field, so there's some there's some uh similarities there. Now I'm guessing you spent some time like in northern Wisconsin where a lot of where your two books are your two most popular books are set.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yes, yeah. So um Northwoods and Wildwood are set in a fictionalized up north resort town. Um, but it's based on like Manaqua. So what that's like what four hours north of Madison? Yeah. Um yeah, we didn't have a cottage or anything. A lot of folks did have summer homes or cottages um in that neck of the woods. We didn't have that, but we camped a lot. So I remember driving through some town up there many, many, many years ago, and we passed a little resort called the Bucksnort Resort. The Bucksnort with me, and I and I didn't use that name in any of my books because the tone of my books is not goofy like that, but I always remember that, and I I'm sure that that played some part in the idea for Northwoods.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Oh, that's awesome! You know, Minaca that rings a bell to me because my oldest boy played club hockey, so you travel all over God's green earth, you know, playing hockey, and we had a tournament in Manacua, and it was winter time, and I've never been there before. And you know, you get settled in your hotel, and it's like, well, I'm gonna get some snacks and drinks and whatever. I'm just gonna run to you know the grocery store. So I go to the grocery store. This is hilarious. I had the only I had a Toyota 4Runner, you know, so it's a four-wheel drive. I had the only like car truck like vehicle, it was all snowmobiles in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I was gonna say, where are we going that? Yes, snowmobiles.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah, I was laughing my butt off. I'm like, oh my god, this is hilarious. Where the heck am I, you know?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Oh yeah, people ride their snowmobiles from bar to bar.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Oh, yeah, that's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

You know, I and I don't know how about how it is up north these days, but we don't get enough snow down here anymore for people to consistently be able to do snowmobiling. Uh, but big big deal up there.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Oh, yeah, it's a big thing. Like you said, they go from like bar to bar, supper clubs to supper club. And coincidentally enough, one person usually dies a season because they're drunk and they're going 90 miles an hour. And oh, look, there's a fence. Oh, look, there's a tree branch. Yeah, it's usually at night. We know when you obviously you can't see that well and there are no streetlights, yeah, you're in the middle of nowhere-ish. So, yeah, unfortunately, that does happen.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Sometimes I talk about the Wisconsin drinking culture when I do author events because you know, for folks who aren't from Wisconsin, I I think it's kind of hard to comprehend what it is. But you know, there's folks that ride their riding lawnmower to the bar because they got their they got their you know fifth DUI.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

It's it is it is a thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

It is a thing, it's a big part of the culture. And you know, before I was a cop, I bartended and cross plains. I lived in Madison and I bartended and crossed plains at a supper club. And I mean, I you know, I went to college in Whitewater. I I mean I knew the like the drinking thing, and you know, I grew up in an Irish house. I was drinking since I was like 10, you know. That's you know, that that's not unusual. And you know, it was just amazing to me. A how much Corbel brandy we went through. I'd go through like three or four bottles. It was old-fashioned on top of old fashioned, on top of old people. Love these old fashions in Wisconsin. There's definitely their own little niche, you know. It's kind of funny that once once you'd kind of dissect it.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

You know, there's a scene in Northwoods where Eli, the main character, orders a it's Corbel. Yep. Uh, there's Corbell special on that night at the bar. And I had someone, a reader, send me a photo on Instagram, and they had put a bottle of Corbel on the hood of their car next to Northwoods, and in the background was Quick Trip.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Oh, that's awesome!

SPEAKER_00 7:20

It was so cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

You can't get more Wisconsin than that. Quick Trip is a staple here in Wisconsin. Yeah, and Corbel. Oh my god. That's funny, you know. But you know what? I bartend now at a buddy's place in Elm Grove, like once once a week or twice a week. Tito's. Oh, do we go through the Tito's? Yeah, wow, we barely. I mean, I still probably make you know 10 to 20 um old fashions a night, but and that's just yeah, on a slow night sometimes, but people still love their old fashions, but you know, vodka is really bringing up the rear. That there's a lot of vodka drinkers now.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, I had a run-in with vodka when I was 19, and I haven't made it since.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

I had one of those experiences too with tequila, and I'm like, oh, I can't even smell that stuff. I'm mixing like a margarita, and I'm like holding my nose. I'm like, oh, please god, let this be over with.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

I just yeah, I can smell dead bodies all day long, but not that uh spiced spiced rum mixed with apple cider. Don't that's not I don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, that just does not sound like a good idea, but hey, it makes for good stories, right? You know, yeah, right. Absolutely. So when you're in high school and or college, how would friends describe you?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Well, I think that um people who are like my close friends, oh, I don't know. I was really I was I was kind of a schoolgirl, like I did well in school, and I thought I was really smart till I got to college, and then I realized that my school was just easy. Um uh so I was a bit of a schoolgirl, but I was also in sports and also and music and all sorts of stuff. So I was I was a bit of a joiner. Um and some people, you know, they go to college and they get homesick or they just are like, oh, I want to go back, I don't want to be here anymore. I came to UW here in Madison and I was like, yes, my life has finally begun. So I really enjoyed college, and I suspect that my college friends would describe me as like a party animal.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

So really well, I I would not have guessed that. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah, I've always been um like I I'm a good decision maker though, you know, like I take calculated risks uh only.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Okay, okay. Yeah, for those who don't know, UW Madison is a top-tier college. And yeah, I tried to get in there, I didn't have the grades, that's why I went to Whitewater, but all my buddies went to Madison, so I would go there once a week when I was in college. Thursday nights.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

It's an awesome city. Uh, the university is humongous and really cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

It really is. And for a young person going to college footloose and fancy free, man, I don't think there's any better place. It was just a blast.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Oh my god, like the quintessential collegiate. I mean, not Ivy League collegiate, but the quintessential Big Ten college experience.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

And I don't know the numbers, but I know Madison is always towards the top for like top partying college. I don't know how they measure this, but like alcohol consumption and you know, whatever else, it's it's definitely a party school. I mean, there's there's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, and but academically it's very difficult. So, you know, how do you balance that?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

I don't know. I don't know how my buddies did it. I had one buddy that had a uh photographic memory, and he just he literally party all night and just straight A's and everything.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

What a jerk.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

I know I was so jealous, and I'm like, come on, man, this is just so mean. I I want to do that, but yeah, yeah, not so much. So you went to college in at UW Madison. When did you know you wanted to be a nurse practitioner?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Um, so like I said, my dad was in healthcare, and I thought I really like helping people. I have seen a little bit secondhand because of him, what caring for patients is like, and I could see myself doing that. And so I was pre-med for two years, and then I remember looking around to the other kids in my class and in college and being like, I don't have anything in common with these people. And part of it was, you know, I was I wanted to go out to the house parties.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

And yes, I did my homework too, but they they didn't do anything but school. And you know, when the rest of us were out, they were at home studying in the weekend, and I didn't I knew enough about myself even back then um to know that that wasn't me. Okay, and I didn't really know what to do then. Of course, English and writing is, I would say, always been something that I love the most, but I didn't know what I could possibly do with an English degree, and I didn't want to be a teacher, so I didn't know what to do. And then I was helping out at my dad's office over winter break one year, and he introduced me to a patient of his who is a nurse practitioner, and I didn't know anybody who is a nurse, no one at all. So I had never heard of that, I had never considered being a nurse, but then I that that one that one encounter, and I was like, all right, let's do this. And you cannot get a more practical degree than nursing, you know, there's a job that comes at the end of that.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

So I I I think it is the thing that I like most other than writing. So, like, second, it is second in line. Of course, I've been doing it for 25 years. I've been doing my second favorite thing for 25 years.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Wow, you know, I remember, you know, I'm a little bit um about 10 years older than you, and when I was in college, I don't think there were nurse practitioners. There were nurses, there was RNs and um LPNs and you know CNAs, but there wasn't like nurse practitioners, and now you know I know the competition is you know fast and furious. It's that's blowing up that and PAs.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah, it's great. I would recommend it to anybody that you you have the most job security you could ever ask for. And I I like helping people, and even if you're someone who's not interested in working in a hospital or seeing people's bodies, there's all sorts of other things you can do.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

When did you uh first start going into uh when did they introduce cadavers to you? I always like asking questions when some people are in the medical field. When was your first experience with a cadaver?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Have I ever even seen a cadaver? Gosh, if I did, it was as an undergrad.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

But that wouldn't, that wouldn't, I don't, I don't know. I don't think I've ever seen one.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Really?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Um, you know, we had to learn how to do like pelvic exams and genital exams. They had live teachers, they would teach us how to do these things on themselves. No way, I'll never forget that. That was an interesting experience.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

They did not. Oh my god. Oh yes, that's going the extra mile for your class.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, but I don't think you know, we had the cat, we had to dissect cats in high school science, but I don't I have a terrible memory. Maybe we did cadavers and I just forgot, but I feel like I'd remember that if it happened.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

I would think so. I I had a friend when I was in high school, she was older than me, and she was pre-med, and they had a cadaver, and she named him, and she's like, Yeah, he looks cold. So she puts socks and a hat on him, and I'm like, please, what are you doing, Katie?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

And it's like there was the gallows humor is real. I like sometimes you forget that some of the stuff you probably shouldn't say out and about. You probably should only say that to other healthcare providers because otherwise you're gonna get really, really scandalized, scandalized looks from people.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yes, you will get roast. But it's the same thing in the police world where I mean almost nothing is off the table, but there are certain things that are sacred that we do not joke about, but a lot. Oh god, some of I yeah, whoo, oh boy. So, yeah, you're a nurse practitioner, you are a nationally recognized HIV specialist. How much of your day job influences your writing, or does it?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Oh, it for sure it does. So um, I've been doing this particular job for about 10 years, but before that, uh you know, all sorts of settings and um uh Northwoods involves a pharmaceutical conspiracy.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

And when I was in grad school and the beginning part of my career as a nurse practitioner was at the height of OxyContin. So if you've ever seen DopeSic or read the book or anything like that, you know that these drug manufacturers, you know, Purdue Pharma and everything, they would send out um uh pharmaceutical representatives to like wine and dine.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

I remember also that there was a lecture that I had at UW given by a uh a doctor talking about pain management and you how you can't get addicted to oxycontin if you take it for pain. Really?

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

All of these things that at the time, you know, you're looking at real research stuff, real research data, you're being shown slides with charts and bar graphs and all sorts of details, and it's being delivered by who you think is a respected colleague.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

And you know, fast forward however many years, and it's just all revealed to be a lie. So I remember telling my I remember talking about Northwoods to my husband early on when I was writing it, and I talked about this concept of a pharmaceutical conspiracy theory where you know murder could be involved, um, or or like a pharmaceutical company knowingly putting out drugs that they they knew could harm people. And he was like, Well, you know, I think that seems a little far-fetched. And I'm like, No, I swear, I swear. And then probably three months later, the whole OxyContin Purdue Pharma Sackler family thing came out, and I was like, I told you.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

I knew this.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Healthcare has all the real life inspiration you could ever want for crime fiction.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Okay, yeah, I I could totally see that. Now, if the opportunity presented itself, would you consider going full-time as an author and hanging up your uh shingle?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

That's the goal. That is the goal. Okay, and that is what keeps me plugging along when I'm trying to do a day job and have a family with kids and write a book a year, if not more.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Um, so that is a resounding yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Okay. Now, when did you get bid by the writing bug?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Um, okay, so maybe third grade, a couple things happened at about the same age.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah. So my great-grandpa gave me his 1908 first edition copy of Anne of Green Gables. And if you've read that book, um, you know that Anne, the orphan girl, dreams of becoming an author. So that first got it in my head. But at about that same time, I won an essay competition in third grade. And I don't remember what the essay was about. And my parents didn't save it for posterity.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Darn them.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Um, but I remember, yeah, I remember that I won a bicycle light for all the nighttime biking that I did when I was nine. And my teacher told me that I was a good writer. And you know, when you're that age, you just assume adults know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

True.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

You also internalize things so much. So from then on, I consider myself a writer. And I would seek out everything I could on the craft of writing. And I was a big reader anyway, I always have been. But anything I could find, even you know, like over the course of the next 30 years, and then I got to be about 40, and I was like, Well, I've not actually written anything yet. I probably should do something about that. So that's when I wrote Northwoods. So Northwoods is like the first thing I wrote.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Wow, okay, that that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

But I had been practicing for 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Oh, okay. So it's not really in my head.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Okay, not not practicing by actually writing other things, practicing in my head.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Oh, that's that's interesting. I like that. You know, and you know, you saying that you know, your third grade teacher is telling you that, hey, you're a good writer, and that imprinted on you, you know. You know, if there's teachers listening to this, you know, there is a huge amount of power, I believe, in you know what you tell your kids. And I remember I was at a parent teacher conference, I was probably like in third or fourth grade. The teacher's like, Pat is stupid, he's dumb. Yeah, yeah, and if it's different times, and it turns out I'm dyslexic. Yeah, that's yeah, I'm sure I had a heaping of AD and ADD and every other thing, you know, as well. I I couldn't concentrate, I just I couldn't read for squad and I couldn't concentrate. It drove me bananas.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, those those sorts of things stick with you. And I was fortunate to grow up with parents who said, You can do anything you set your mind to. Um, because I know that's the opposite. I mean, there's a lot of parents, even well-meaning parents, who are like, I'm gonna keep you humble, don't get too big of a head. Right, you're no better than anybody else, and I just don't really see the point of that.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, and but it's good to be realistic too. Like, I remember, you know, I was I remember when I was a kid, I wanted to be a doctor. I I was watching emergency gauge and deSoto, you know, the paramedics say, Oh, and I thought that was the coolest thing ever. And I'm like, I want to be Kelly Brackett, I want to be that doctor at the hospital. Then, you know, then I got the teacher telling me I'm a dumbass, and then you know, later on, it's like, oh shoot, math, science. I'm like, oh boy, this I it this is not going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I I've worked with enough doctors, I it's not all it's cracked up to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

We'll leave it at that. I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Bad for them usually because med school is basically hazing. I think it's gotten better, but it's hazing and residency, more hazing, and you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. And I don't know, those math and science classes weed out a whole lot of people who'd be very good at taking care of other folks.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Yeah, I agree with you. I agree. But you know, hey, what are you gonna do? So become a nurse. Yeah, become a nurse practitioner, yes. Yeah, so how does how do you balance juggling being, you know, you're a nurse practitioner, you're a mom, you're a wife, you're an author. Yeah, I mean, what is your secret? How do you keep all these things in check?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

I don't think I do. I I don't know. I don't know when I do it. Okay, okay. So I am on deadline for the third book in the Northwoods series. In fact, I'm probably like a little past deadline and still working on it. Um so I every lunch break, I'm working on it. Um, I I really struggle with writing in the evening. Like after the kids go to bed, forget it. I stare at the computer, nothing comes out.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Um for a while there, I was getting up early at like five. That doesn't work either. I mean, my brain doesn't wake up until six at least.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

So my window of time is very small. Um, and I did cut my hours back to 80%. So a few days a week I go in a couple hours late. Um, so it's no wonder that deadlines are tough because I I really I have very little time, which is why I'm, you know, I really want to go full time as an author because I don't know how long it's like having a side hustle. You can only do it for so long.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Right. I I agree with you. You know, it I've been podcasting for five years. You know, I've got my own, and I was on Writer's Inc. for a year uh co-hosting with JD Barker. And you know, I've talked to some super high-speed authors that you know obviously are making their living off of it. And some of them say, and I kind of can see it, where you have that freedom of say, you know what, I quit the day job and you know I'm full-time author, but you kind of get distracted. You know, when you're when you're in that zone, it's like, okay, I know I have an hour. There's no you know, scrolling Facebook or Instagram or you know, whatever. You are laser focused on the task at hand because you know this is all you've got. And I go through this too. You know, I retired from my day job, you know, six years ago, and I think I got more writing done when I was working like 60 hours a week and being a dad and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

I could absolutely see that. There's something to be said about that um uh like crunch time.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Um, especially for folks who have ADHD. If that is exactly what you actually have, the pressure of an external deadline can be very valuable. I'm thankful. I I'm pretty good at motivating myself to stay on task. Um, but sometimes you just don't have it in you. You know, sometimes you just stare at the screen, your brain doesn't want to put anything out there, your fingers practically don't move, and you start thinking, well, maybe I'm a terrible writer.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

So that's why my husband is like, just close that just close the computer, go to bed.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

I've had other people tell me, like, when that happens, then just put anything on there, you know, even if it's garbly goop. You know, I think so too. Yeah, I I think that's good advice. I think it's really good advice. And then before you know it, it's like, oh, you know what? I'll just write a hundred words before I go to bed. Then before you know it, you're 500 words in.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yep. And here's another thing that I've just really recently found. Okay, so say you know what you want, you know what's happening in the scene in your mind, but getting it under the page just is really difficult. So what I have done is I just start typing the not fictional, interesting version of what I'm trying to say. Like I'll say, you know, Eli is frustrated because this, and he says this, but then this person gets mad. So he's thinking, and what that's something unplugs, like some sort of stopper comes out of the bottle when I do that sometimes. So I just started doing that recently, and it's been very helpful. It's almost like you're talking to the blank page as a person versus trying to write a story.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

I like that. That that's cool. Anything we can do, any little tricks or whatever. So are you a plotter or are you a pantser?

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Um, Northwoods was pants. That's the first one in the series.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

And the way that that book started is that I challenged myself. I was stuck in traffic one morning, and I challenged myself to come up with an image, just whatever image popped into my mind. And it was a melancholy man floating in the lake on a warm summer night when music starts coming across the water. And for anyone who's read Northwoods, that's the opening scene. Yes, it is. So I got I got home that night and I wrote that scene, and it was so vivid. Um, I wrote that chapter and the second chapter, and the published version of those two chapters are almost the exact same as the first draft. So that's that came into my mind like that. And then the finale scene I also knew and wrote. And then it took me two years to fill in all the pieces, and by all the pieces, I mean like a 40,000-word, you know, barely there first draft.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Um, so I I didn't I don't know though that plotting is much easier because I plotted Wildwood, the second book in the series, because I had a deadline then.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

And one thing that happened with Northwoods is that I um, in the copy editing stage, which for folks that know is a very end of the process, you know, the publisher is going to be sending this off to the printer after the copy editing is done. And the copy editor found a plot hole in Northwoods. And so at the last minute, I had to add a chapter to fill that plot hole. And I thought, oh my gosh, I could have, you know, written myself into a dead end and been in trouble. So I outlined Wildwood, and that had its own challenges because while I knew what the plot was, I didn't know what the characters were thinking and feeling. And that affected my ability to write the plot, first of all. But it also uh I'm someone who writes emotion and feeling and relationships. That's to me, that's as important as the plot. Like my books are just that way, they're they're very character driven. Yes. Um, so that I was kind of freaking out late in the process because I'm like, I don't have any idea what Eli's even feeling, but I, you know, got to it eventually. But I think that um it's a combination of both. I'm a plancer.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Okay, gotcha. You know, for me, you know, I write fiction and nonfiction. When I write nonfiction, I don't plot at all. I I have it in my head, I know exactly what I want to write, and I just do it. And for fiction, I start out by the seat of my pants, and if I write myself into a corner, then I start plotting.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

I I normally, if I do fiction, I know the beginning, the middle, and the end.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yes, yeah, that's well, like the tent the tent poles, they say the tent poles, yeah, you know, because that midpoint is just as important as the catalyst and the finale, you know. Uh, and I that was something that took me a while to learn the importance of that midpoint tool.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Oh, the saggy middle is no fun. I mean, you know, it's that's where a lot of writers get stuck in you're kind of quagmired, you know, in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah. Well, and there's I've I have not found any good craft explanation of what the midpoint is until I kind of just figured it out myself. Because midpoint, what does that even mean? Um but but I the way I think of it is the midpoint is the this changes everything moment. Um that has served me well to think of it that way.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

I think for thrillers, the a good midpoint is the main character has to go against whatever obstacle and they fail. Yeah, but then it sparks a new direction, or the you can introduce an another character, you know, to help them out, or something sparks somewhere, and then then you build up that momentum for you know like the big conclusion, the big end.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah, so much goes into this. This is writing writing, I don't I have never written nonfiction, but writing fiction, man, it is hard. It is hard.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

It is, it really is. It's it's harder than nonfiction. Yeah, I like I said, I do both. And writing fiction is I don't want to say a lot tougher, but boy, it it it's tough. Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

I thought, is there something wrong with me that there's a whole lot of this process that I hate? No, that's normal because some people are like, oh, if I didn't publish, I would still write just for fun. And I'm like, what part is fun exactly? Um, but then I've seen really big authors that I admire who say the same thing, who are like, oh yeah, it's 90% sucks, but the 10% is so amazing that I do it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Well, yeah, like for me, you know, I go into the police academy, and the worst part for me was running. I was 30 years old, I'm running with these 21-year-olds. And I could lift weights, I could do calisthenics to the I scored hundreds on my PT for that stuff, but the running I absolutely hated. And I know then there's some people that I know is like, oh, it's so much fun. I'm like, Are you kidding me? What's fun about running? There's nothing fun. I mean, the end results is great, it's great cardiovascular, you know, endurance training, and you know, it and it teaches a lot when you're in a police academy. It's not just the workout, it's the no quit. I remember you know, I was you know, one of the runs that we did. Somebody did something stupid. So my whole class is running for an hour up and down stairs, sprinting down halls. There's people puking, there's people like turning blue. My instructor was yelling at me, he's like, Oh, Donald, you are anaerobic, you are no longer aerobic, you are no longer breathing. And I I was literally turning blue, I was dying, yeah. But it puts it in your head, there is no quit. Yeah, he said there. If you're a cop and you're doing battle with somebody or you're in whatever situation, there's no time out, there's no like yellow card saying, Okay, I gotta catch my breath here. Doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Like, you absolutely have to do it. That that's my metaphor that I can relate with there, or my the the thing I can compare to because I've never been in law enforcement, is being a new parent, like with a newborn. You are tired, you you can't, you don't have any more to give, but you got to because babies cry, and you just somehow, somehow reach down and find it.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yeah, that that's a great analogy because I remember my first son, I didn't have any experience with babies, zero. I didn't have little brothers or sisters, I didn't have little cousins, I never babysat. I I only had held an infant one time before my son was born, and I'm 31 years old. And my wife was a month early, and she had some complications, so she was all drugged out in bed, and here we have this newborn, and you know, he we were home from the hospital at two days, you know, not even, and it's like the first night I slept on the floor of the nursery because I was petrified. We didn't have a baby monitor back then, and so I slept on the floor and I woke up like every 15-20 minutes to make sure he was breathing. I was scared to death, and he didn't care that I didn't sleep, he didn't know like he was off in his own little baby world doing baby stuff, and you know, it's like, and like he said, there is no excuses. My poor wife, she couldn't move, so I'm like, all right, it's all on me, it's on my shoulders.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

You just gotta do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yep, that's crazy stuff. Oh my! So your path towards the best-selling book, Northwoods, yeah. How you win traditional publishing, correct? Yeah, now how many re you hear all these stories about you know, authors with their hundreds of rejection letters, you know, it's you know, they try, try, try, try, try to get an agent, you know, they're doing the query letters. How did that look for you? How did it happen?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Well, okay, so remember how I said a little while ago that I'm a school girl. I I do my homework ahead of time, right? So I wasn't going to try to publish to write and publish a book that I knew no one wanted to buy. You know, like I wasn't gonna just pick some random self-indulgent thing to write. And yes, I I got the idea for Northwoods just on a whim, but I knew that crime fiction and small town crime fiction is a is a popular genre. Oh, it is worth my time to write a book in that genre and commercially viable. But I think um so my path to getting my publishing deal was a lot smoother than what you hear for horror stories. But I think that that comes down to doing my homework, but also polishing the daylights out of that manuscript before I started sending it out to to query agents. So, yes, you hear horror stories about querying 100 agents and getting all these rejections and or being on submission with publishers for years and years with no bytes. Um I let's see, January of 2022, I had I had finished writing the book. I had sent it to all my beta readers. Beta readers are really good. So those are folks that read it and give you feedback from a reader's perspective. They're not editing, they're just giving you, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Um so I polished it up after the beta readers, and then January 2022, I started querying and I made myself a spreadsheet and I found the contact info for all of the agents who were accepting new people who even sort of were accepting.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

How did you find that information?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Um you know, Query Tracker was the best resource, but I didn't know about that right away. So I think there was some writers digest book that they put out with agents, there's an annual thing with agents. I'm not sure how helpful I found that, to be honest. Querytracker.net is a resource that I would recommend to anyone who's considering querying agents for traditional publishing. Um so I made a spreadsheet and I told myself I well, and I polished my query letter. And if anyone is curious about a query letter and what that means, and and I mean, Pat, you know this, but just for the sake of anyone who's curious, um your query letter is the letter you send, it's in an email these days saying, Hey, here's this book I wrote, here's what it's about. Um and you want to make it exciting. You want it to be a hook, you want the person going through all the million emails to be like, wait a minute, this sounds interesting. I might look at these 10 pages that are attached. So my query letter, the publisher basically just jacked it and used it as the book copy. So my query letter is the flap of Northwoods.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

So if anyone wants to see it, you gotta buy the copy of Northwoods.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

There we go. Now, how many rejections did you get, or did you just hit a home run right away?

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Okay, so I I started querying, I think I I don't know, five to ten a week. So by the end of January, I had probably sent out 30-ish queries. And I got a couple of requests for the full manuscript, I think three or four, which is good. Like that's within the first month or two, that's very good. So I was pleased with that. And then um in February, one of the people who requested um offered. So it went very fast. So in comparison. And I think again, that is due to paying attention to the things that make books attractive to agents and editors.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

So the Bigfoot romance from Amy Pease is not coming anytime soon.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

No, because you know what? Annalise Ryan has the Bigfoot all wrapped up. She has her monster series Wisconsin Mystery.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Oh, I didn't know about that. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yeah, Annalise Ryan. It starts with the Death in Dor County, so check that out.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Okay, all right. So obviously, you get an agent, you know. For those who don't know, you get an agent and the agent shops around to publishers. So what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Um, she helped me polish it a little bit more. Um, and then she sent it out to publishers. I think the process looks pretty similar, you know, unless an agent has a very close relationship with an editor and they can call the editor up and be like, hey, I got something for you.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

I think that that they almost kind of do a process that's similar to querying where they send it out to a bunch of acquiring editors at various imprints. So she did that, and it was only like a couple weeks before I got the deal. So I I think it was um much, much smoother than I had expected, um, which was I'm sure partly due to circumstances and luck, but also, you know, you have control over the quality of your writing. You have control over doing your homework about how to query, about how to write a query letter. There's so many people I'll see in like writing Facebook groups who are just like, How do I get an agent? And I'm like, Did you Google that yet? Yeah, there's there's a wealth of information about how to do that. Start there.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Right. Wow, that's now. Do you remember where you were and and or how you celebrated when you found out? It's like, hey, this is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

I was at work, okay, and I remember looking at the email where my agent offered because the hardest part is getting the agent, I think.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Getting the book deal is not so difficult. I don't, I that's my experience anyway. Um, but when I got that offer from the agent, I remember being like, oh my guys, and my friends, you know, sitting there at work where they knew that I was trying to do this, and so I was like, ah, and I'm sure I didn't do anything to actually celebrate. Oh, you know, I got a new computer bag when I got my publishing deal. That I remember.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Oh my, you you cracked me up. Oh my. So when when you were writing this book, the first one, Northwoods, did you have a feeling, man, this is gonna be a hit?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Um I was excited about it, and the more I wrote, the more excited about I was, and I took that as a good sign. That was what pushed me to keep writing it because I had never written anything, I had never written a first draft. I didn't even know whether I could do it until I did it.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Um, and then, you know, and it was course as really bad. First drafts are terrible. It was it was like the dumbest thing ever.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

It's the first pancake, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

It was like Yeah, it was it was terrible. In fact, if people are ever asking me for writing advice for new writers, I say, um you're gonna write something on the page, you're gonna read it back, you're gonna say to yourself, That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. But then you gotta keep on writing. So that's that's the secret.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Okay, all right. So that does very well. You know, Wildwood did very good. It's still an Amazon editor's choice book. I was just like, wow, that's really cool. Now it's time to write the second book.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah, Wildwood first, then Wildwood, yep.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Right now, did you feel pressure? It's like, oh boy, I gotta deliver the same hit now. You know, the bar is up here. You know, you hear this a lot from bands. You know, it's like their first big hit, you know, and then their producer is saying, You got six months to do the same thing, and they're like, Yeah, this I it took me all of my life to get to this point. It took me all of my life to do this. Now you want me to replicate this in six months.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Exactly. Um, I did not enjoy writing Wildwood, I did not enjoy it at all. I don't even know if there were any moments where I liked it. Whereas Northwoods, there were. Wildwood, even when I, you know, was turning it into my editor and we were calling it done. I was like, you would tell me if this sucked, right? You would tell me if this is bad. Because I don't know. I don't know about this book.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

And she was like, I promise I would tell you this is. Good book. And what made me be like, all right, fine, is also because all of my beta readers liked it better than Northwoods.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

And I had given my beta readers a terrible version of it. It was like not fully written. It was messy. It was it was crappy, and they all liked it better than Northwoods. So I'm like, all right, fine.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

So and everyone who's read it still says they like it better than Northwoods.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

So I I have been proven wrong, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Well, I I cannot say it because I got Northwoods and I I listened to it on audio. I love audio books. So yeah, I finished that very good. And Wildwood is next. I wanted to do it in order. So that's the next one. Now I did notice.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Well, and this is a fun fact. The narrator for Northwoods and Wildwood is from Green Bay. Oh, no kidding. Um, our parents were in the same dining club before we were born.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Oh my god, is that funny? Yeah, wow, that's that's incredible. Yeah, now I was looking at your Amazon uh page and I noticed you're in KU, you're Amazon exclusive for the kin.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Am I?

SPEAKER_01 45:40

You are.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

I I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Okay, I was just wondering how what the strategy was behind that, but I guess I have no idea the publisher does it all. Okay, okay, but you know what?

SPEAKER_00 45:52

I that makes sense though, because it's the first in a series, and it you know, they did they did a lot more publicity and marketing for Northwoods, and partly because it was a debut, but yeah, it so much more than Wildwood, but it kind of makes sense. Like, why blow your marketing and publicity budget on the second book in a series?

SPEAKER_03 46:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Um so you know, we had a month of it being $2.99 on Kindle, and now as you're saying, it's on KU. Yeah, I didn't know that, but that seems like a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Yeah, you know, all of my books are in KU, and you know there's pros and cons, obviously. You know, you it's nice to get those page reads, and I do think, and I have zero evidence to back this, but I do think Amazon gives it a little more love as far as discoverability if you are K.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

I think you're right. I've I've heard that from a lot of I follow the self-publishing industry very closely. I have considered self-publishing other things.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

That was gonna be one of my questions. Yeah, I saw that on the list.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Um, yeah, so I know that there's the back and forth about KU and uh there's all sorts of little sneaky things. There's all sorts of little sneaky things.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yeah, I think that the big publishers are learning a lot from indie publishing right now.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

As they should, yes, they should, because they get you know, they dig their heels in as like, well, this is the way we've always done it. You know, that's not always the best way to do it, but you know, whatever. So interesting. You know, my next question was you ever consider self-publishing?

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Yes. So way back when I was writing Northwoods, I thought, well, maybe I'll self-publish, but then I thought, well, why don't I at least give it a give the traditional publishing thing a try?

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Um, in other words, querying agents. Um and I'm glad I did. Obviously, that worked out well. I am I have no experience in business or marketing or anything like that. So, and a lot of um successful self-publishers do, and that comes in tremendous handy when you're marketing yourself. Um, and I didn't have any of that background to help me along. So that was another reason that I erred on the side of going to traditional. Um, I wrote uh am still writing a uh romance because when I read, my favorite genre to read is historical romance.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Yeah, and there is a romance subplot in the Northwoods series, as you like maybe could guess.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

After Northwoods.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Um, so I wrote um a gothic time travel Dracula romance. Okay. And I had thought I had talked to my agent at the time, um, because I have a different age now. I had talked to that agent and was like, hey, I've got this book. What do you think? And she's like, No, I don't, I'm I'll pass. So I thought, okay, well, I guess I'll self-publish it. But then, you know, fast forward six months and she changed her mind about it. So it's not ready to be submitted yet. Yeah. Um, but that'll go traditional too now.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Interesting. Yeah, I have a self-published hero of mine. Her name is Cecilia Mecca. She wrote she started writing historical fiction, it was Scottish and English, you know, medieval romance.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

And I met her at 20 books to 50k, her and her husband. And that was like in 2017. She was on track to being a professor at Penn State.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

And she dropped all of that to write romance.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

And she I need to look up her books. That's exactly the kind of stuff I like.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

And she's making a lot more money doing that.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Okay, well, you're gonna have to um uh let me know her name again because that is there's not that much out there. Like, I need more fuel. I need more fuel.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Cecilia Mecca.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

How do you spell that? M-E-C-C-A?

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Yeah, M-E-C-C A, and she's got like she's doing the uh she's doing that, but she's also doing paranormal, she's doing romanticy, and she's doing urban uh romance.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Does she live in Madison?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

No, she lives in uh Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Oh, I was gonna say something's popping up there. Okay, yeah. I've just for a second.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

She is one of she she is, if you want it, there's a uh podcast called The Self-Publishing Formula with James Blatch, and she's the co-host. Oh, she's his new co-host.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Well, now I know exactly where I'm gonna look for my latest book. I I'm a very um like you know, when they say DNF, a book, do not finish. I I finish maybe 10% of the books I start reading.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

I'm ruthless.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

See, I can't do that. I have to finish it. If I start it, I have to I I I have I have moved past that need. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

So like kind of a ridiculous extent, to be honest. Like I will put down a book with just a couple chapters left.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Oh wow. Oh no, I no way. I could not do that.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

And it isn't even a book that I dislike, it's just if I put it down and I find that I'm not wanting to reach for it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Interesting. Interesting. So ruthless. Okay. You know, you write crime fiction, you know, and I don't think you were a cop. You know, where do you where do you get your cop facts from? Where how do you do your research for it?

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Well, the cops and writers Facebook group.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Um for anyone who knows anything about actual law enforcement, they will probably see that Northwoods and Wildwood are pretty light on the procedural stuff. Because I don't always think about it. Yeah, so it's a little light on that. I tried to, okay, so it's set in this fictional tiny resort town in northern Wisconsin called Shaky Lake, and the department is tremendously understaffed. Like they they're there's no way they can actually meet all of the needs um of the town. So they're always cutting corners and scrapping and making do and having to bend the rules. Well, that's for a reason because I don't I don't know what the rules are. I mean, I can research stuff when I need to know. Like, for example, in Northwoods, there's a missing girl and the FBI gets involved. And I was like, is that realistic? And I go for like bare minimum plausibility if something could even possibly be true, good enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

All right, all right. Yeah, I was wondering what that looked like, but that is one workaround. I mean, that that definitely is well.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

I know Nick Petrie talks about how in his um Peter Ashe series, how Peter's always losing his phone so that he can't just like make a call and figure out the answer to something.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Well, and we both know Nick, Nick is a great guy, he's a good writer, too. Yeah, he's great, absolutely another local Wisconsin guy. Yeah. So we were talking a little bit earlier about this. A strong point, I think, of your writing is describing people and surroundings. Where does that come from? And where's like the border where okay, that's too much described?

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Oh, that is a far more interesting question. Yeah. Um, I love lots of description. So, my two favorite books, Tied for First Place, Anna Green Gables and the Grapes of Wrath. And if you ever read Steinbeck, you know he describes every facial expression, every everything, everything is described. And I love it. And Anna Green Gables is like that too. Um, that is not for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

And it's you you have to kind of at the end of the day, when you're writing it, you gotta do what you like. Um although you do want to keep in mind, you don't want to be self-indulgent about it to the point where you're turning off everybody. Um, but I'm a describer, I like that when I read, so I include it in my books. I was reading an excerpt that someone had put up um from Northwoods, and it was a descriptive passage, and reading it again, you know, years later, I'm like, I think that could have been about 20% shorter. Um, so you learn too. You learn. Not that I read my reviews, um, but of course I read my reviews.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Everybody does. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Yeah. And so some people are like, oh my God, the description just went on and on. I didn't need to know about the trees and the this and the that. And then some people are like, I love the description.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Yeah, so I think we listen as authors, we listen a little too much to editors and other authors and kind of discount what the reader wants. The reader is the ultimate judge of everything. Anyone that's willing to put down five, ten bucks for your book, yeah, then go that extra mile to even write a review.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Or if it's you know, if it's a traditionally published hardcover, that's 30 bucks.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Uh yeah, you know, and I've been fortunate that my editor um at Atria at Emily Bess Emily Bessler Books has never tried to assert her style on me ever. She's amazing, and I hear a lot of horror stories about that from uh other Wisconsin authors who are good friends of mine. So I have never dealt with that, but I don't know. I feel like I've always thought this is about me and the reader, this isn't about anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Okay. Interesting. Yeah, I think so too. And again, as authors, we do get that in our heads. You know, I I sent out, you know, my arc team, you know, uh the last couple of books, and some of them, you know, a lot of them actually are authors, and they'll start picking it apart with authorly stuff. Then I'll have like just regular readers read it and they're like, Oh, I love this. And they don't say anything about, you know, it's like, oh, you're this, that, and the other thing. And some of it I had to like look up. I'm like, what are they talking about? You know, they're like way over my head. They have MFAs and stuff, and I'm like, you know, and then I've got like just regular people is like, when's the next book coming out? I love that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Yeah, I find that fascinating because I'll talk to my friends at work and they're all, you know, loving some of these really popular, like, you know, like Fourth Wing or something. And I I read Fourth Wing and it's actually pretty good. I don't like fantasy, so usually I don't like those, but that one I liked pretty well. But Fourth Wing, of course, blockbuster uh romantic book. Uh I wanted to know, like, what is it that you loved so much about this book? And it's never the writing style. No, it's what I've come to understand is the line level prose really doesn't matter to most readers. It matters a lot to me. Like, if I if it's bad line level prose, I'm like, no, I I can't, I can't enjoy this book if I'm sitting there being bothered by like weird word choices or generic language or whatever. Um, but this is another thing that I just recently came across, well, sort of recently, that might be helpful to any writers. Um, there's a an editor, no, he's a literary agent, um, been in the business forever, Donald J. Moss, M-A-A-S-S. He's written a bunch of books and he has a blog about the craft of writing, and it's all about the emotional experience for the reader. And his point is you need to have these things. And even if your line level prose is not great, they're still gonna give the reader that emotional experience, and that's what makes a breakout novel.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

I agree one million percent. Because think about it, whatever movie you watch, or like your favorite song, you you don't you're not listening you're not like reading this book or watching this movie, and it's like, well, you know, this technical thing, or that you may not remember the entire thing, or like a say a song, but you'll remember the feeling it gives you.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

When you walk away from what uh you know, you your one of your favorite songs, or one of your favorite books, or movies, or whatever, you're like, oh wow, that really, you know, I just got done watching Rocky 3 last night. You know, it's like I want to hit the gym, man. I I you know, it's like, yeah, I work out every day, and it's like now, yeah. Hello, Mr. Heavy Bag. You know, it's like I gotta be Rocky, you know. I don't understand, I don't understand or remember all the little nuances that Sylvester Stallone tried to put in the script and you know, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter. What how did you feel when you walked away?

SPEAKER_00 59:01

Yeah, I I've been trying to um that that's been my approach for the third book in the series, which I'm still I'm still finishing, um, although it comes out in April, which for traditional publishing is a very tight window.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

Um and it's the third book is called The Silence Keepers. And I had spent a lot of time in the past year or so really trying to research or to read everything I could by Donald J. Moss and rethink some of the decisions I make. Um, and my work is sort of, like I said, character-based, so heavy on the emotion to begin with. Um, but one thing that I think he would say is absolutely fundamental is that you want your protagonist to be like a hero. You want them to have heroic qualities above and beyond what any of us, any real life person would have. Like they need to be larger than life, even though maybe they're an anti-hero. Maybe they're their whole point is that they're just an average Joe. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

You have to give them some flaws. You got it. They can't, you know, superhero is fantastic, but a superhero that never stubs their toe and never, you know, seeks has any kind of difficulty or challenge is boring. You want them to overcome something, you want them to, you know, be in your my writer friends, you know, we will talk, it's like we'll bounce stuff off of each other, and it's like, what do you think? I said, you need more, you know, stress, you need more drama, you know, like give them something horrible, you know, give give them a disease, give them, you know, put them in a situation that's no win, you know, just and just when you think there's enough, give them more, you know, it's like just really lay it on thick.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Well, and the idea that there should be conflict in and tension in every line. And when you think of it that way, it's uh because sometimes you just want to convey some information about the case or whatever in the story and then move on. But you you can't really do that if you want it to be at a higher level for the reader. So the idea of tension on in every line of the book, that's been really helpful for me to keep in mind, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

And you know, like Hollywood, I don't know why, but they they miss the mark where it's like a lot of these stories, you know, yeah, there's lots of tension, there's lots of drama, but there's no comedy, you know, like say police fiction, you know, it's we were talking before, you know, about dark humor, you know, healthcare, you know, first responders, you know, etc. And where they lose it is there's no humor at all. Everyone's so stoic, and it's like, you know, it's the worst day ever. Oh my gosh. And it's like after a while, as a watcher or a reader, you get tired. Man, give me a lifeline here.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

You know, it's you need um you need a little bit of a palate cleanser every now and then.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Absolutely. So, speaking of Hollywood, if or when your books make it to the small or big screen, what actor or actress do you want being the leading persons?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

Okay, I made a whole mood board for Northwoods. I didn't have time to do it, I didn't have time to do it for Wildwood or the Silence Keepers, but for Northwoods, I made a whole mood board with inspiration photos for every character, including Eli's dog.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

Um sweet.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

His dog is like everyone makes fun of him that he got like someone pawned off a wolf puppy on him because this big, you know, wolf-looking dog. And so I used a Game of Thrones dire wolf for Bella, the dog. Um so Eli gets teased a lot for being really good looking. Like Alyssa, the FBI agent, says like she teases him about looking like a Disney prince. And you know, he doesn't, he does not have an ego about it, but it was so it's sort of embarrassing to him. But I thought I was looking at I I had sort of in my mind, and he's in his late 30s in the book, and I found a headshot of Chris Evans, who is Captain America, but it was a headshot where he was looking really sad. So and and Eli's going through a lot of difficult things in your things. Um, so sad Chris Evans. Okay, that's who plays him.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

Love it, love it. And yeah, I was also gonna ask when you're writing a book, do these things pop into your head? But obviously they do.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Oh, yeah. I have stuff going on in my head at all times.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Okay, well, let's start landing the plane here. Uh respectful of your time. What's next?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Uh well, right now I'm sweating my deadline for the silence keepers. So once that is done, hopefully in the coming, you know, several weeks to a couple months, um, I'm getting back to working on the gothic time travel Dracula romance.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Sweet.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

Um, because my agent would like to start getting that out, hopefully in the fall to publishers. I don't know if I'm allowed to say any of this. I think I am. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

Oh well, I mean, what's what's the worst thing that could happen, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

I don't uh I don't know why I couldn't say any of that kind of stuff, but uh, yeah. So that's what's going on. Um and then of course in the summer, there's just like so much stuff going on that fitting that in is about all I can do.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Sure. So where can people go to find out more about you and your work?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

My website is amypeasrights.com. And um my books are available anywhere, books are sold. Um, there's links from my website to purchase them. I think it brings you to the Simon and Schuster page, so you can just click any retailer that you want.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

Um, and it's available in uh book KU, but also um there's hardcover paperback and audio. The paperback of Wildwood is not out yet, that'll come out in December.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Okay, yeah. All right, so the books are Northwoods and Wildwood, and the next book is coming up soon-ish. Yes, all right. Well, Amy, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

Thank you. It was good chatting with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

All right. Thank you, everyone, for joining me and my special guest, best-selling and award-winning author, Amy Pease, for this bonus episode of the Cops and Riders Podcast. Thank you, Amy, for letting us into the up north world of Northwoods and Wildwood. I can't wait to see what's next for you in your author journey. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Cops and Riders Podcast. If you haven't done so yet, can you take a minute and rate and review the show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts? If you have already, thank you. As always, thank you for all of your support, and of course, let's be careful out there.