The Hobby Bicycle 🚲 | The Crossover 5.15.26

Josh (@cardboard_chronicles) and Chris (@chris_hoj), the founders of Card Ladder, join forces to bring you the most entertaining and educational sports card discussion on the internet every Friday night.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

We're live. Welcome everybody. Welcome back to the back-to-back crossovers. Today is Friday, May 15th, 2026. And uh roughly our six-year anniversary right about now. I think technically that's May. I mean uh April. So we're a little bit past the six-year anniversary of the crossover, but I figured I'd give that a little plug since we didn't do anything for most of January, February, March, April, and now part of May. So we start with mail divs. Does anybody have any mail divs?

SPEAKER_04 0:40

I do.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Christina does Josh? Nope. No. Christina? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Awesome. I have another otter one of one. This is the, let me grab it in the light. This is the 2023-24 OPC showman. Ship. Showman. Yeah. Yeah, I can read. Showman ship. Uh, one of one. It looks like a gold vinyl, if you can see. Uh, very nice. And I'm a huge fan.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Nice. Congrats.

SPEAKER_04 1:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Alright. And uh I brought a mail day to show. It's a few weeks old, but uh oops. We'll just keep we'll keep the mail days going here. Alright, so this is card number M3 from the uh 9899 Quantum Gold insert set from upper deck. It is a Michael Jordan one of one. And uh cool action shot of him. Looks like there it is. M3 from the set. Technically uh QM M3 for uh quantum M3. Alright, and that would be my mail day. Okay. So mail days out of the way. Now we plow through one of the largest dumps of questions I think we've ever gotten, which is great. And a wide, wide, wide range of types of questions, which is fun as well. And we'll just try to get through as many of these as we can within the hour, and we'll we'll we're gonna wrap this thing at about the 60-minute mark. So we're gonna let a question from Publius13 warm up the show. He asks, Why did Crossover return to the airwaves? Josh.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Because we felt like it. Christina.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

That seems like the wrong question to ask. Like you framed it wrong. Like, why did we return? Okay, like bye. Like, also, just don't watch if you're not like, what?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

What do you mean? Why do you think that why are you taking this?

SPEAKER_04 2:55

I don't know. He was like, why did it why'd you return? Like, why'd you come back to the party after you already left? Like it it seems like he's curious.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

He's we he's like, Did something happen? Is there an agenda you want to push? Which yeah, I think the agenda is don't dangle your cards over the lake. Come back to spread that good news. All right. The Hobby G sent two great questions this week, and I put one of them right up here up front. Here it goes. Would you rather have a card which you covet disappear forever into an anonymous private PC that you cannot access? Or would you rather have that card get sold from flipper to flipper? We call that the vortex, who continually reposts it at extortionary prices. Christina. Would you rather if let's say it's a card that you love, what would bother you more? If it disappears forever into a private PC or if it gets thrown into the vortex and is being held for ransom.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

So like with the ransom, eventually you have a chance to get it. With the black hole, like I know someone who has a card that I covet, and it's a black, like it's not coming out no matter what. And it's just that card's dead to me because I will never own it unless I do like something for that person and they like decide to sell it to me as a gesture of goodwill. But like, I I think I would rather it sounds awful, but I'd rather it be in the vortex because at least the vortex, like flippers will flip and they will sell, like, so eventually that hot potato will land in the hands of an auction house and you have a chance to pick it up.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Josh, I think you're gonna agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Oh, yeah. I mean, the the the reactionary one is like, oh, let's get it with a PC person and do the right thing, but I'm selfish, I want it myself.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Exactly. That's the divide here. Is like, do you want to protect the honor of this card even if it means you can't have it? Or are you willing to let the card get uh what's the how do I put this politely? Or are you willing to let the card uh Become the Hobby's bicycle? Become a hobby bicycle. The hobby, okay. We just named this episode. The hobby bicycle. Everybody gets a ride. All right, the hobby's bicycle. Stiff, please, if you don't mind. The great stiff arm wax, ladies and gentlemen, in the chat and behind all of your favorite card letter social media content. All right. Uh let's continue on here to Drake. Drake's PC also submitted two questions. Drake says this. Please walk through your thought process if you've ever considered this. So he left you an out to say no immediately. If they were similar value, would you rather have a scarce and coveted 90s parallel? By the way, coveted used in two of the first three. A scarce and coveted 90s parallel out of 25 or out of 50. Would you rather have that? Or would you rather have a later year one of one? So sorry, so a 90s parallel that's rare, maybe out of 25 or out of 50, or a later, so like post-90s, a later year one of one. So for example, let's assume you're choosing between like a PMG or a Ruby's versus a later random year superfractor. Why would you choose one over the other? Would it, or does it make sense that a card that's numbered to 25 or 50 could have a similar value as a one of one? Whoever would like to take that.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

I love that he basically tells us his own scenario. He's back. This is like a classic Drake. He's going through this.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

You can just tell us the exact. I think just give us specifics from around.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

It's like a Manning PMG from the 90s, or he's being offered some like platinum superfractor tops. It's not Chrome, so he's like not sure. I mean, the obvious answer here is take the 101 and get the PMG later.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Right, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Just set the 101 aside, bury it, and then come back to the PMG in five years.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

I think that's the correct answer. And the only answer, like the one of one might end up in that private collector, like black hole PC that you'll never see. But if you get it now, secure that there's 24 other copies that might hit the the auction block.

unknown 7:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

And so let me underscore here with double D uh vintage here in the chat. Says Dylan. He says, for me, it's all about the set that the one-on-one's coming from. And I think that's right. So like Drake, for example, is comparing like a PMG to a superfactor, let's say. And even if it's paid manning, I mean, how many superfactors would he have from, let's say, Top Scrum? Maybe 10. So like you can create a sandbox that maybe he has like five to ten Top Scrum supers, and he has 25 to 50 of that particular year of rubies or PMGs, and then maybe he has a total of 200 PMGs. So like you can create sandboxes that are intuitive that say even though it's a later year card, it's still much rarer, even discounting the fact that it's cool to have one from earlier seasons, like that adds something to the equation. Where I think it gets more interesting is if it's maybe not like a top scrum superfactor, maybe it's one that falls in sort of the sandbox of like off-brand one of ones. So maybe that sandbox has a few hundred later career or just total, a few hundred one of ones in it. So now you're kind of talking apples to apple. You're talking about one sandbox that has a few hundred of a type, and then let's say you're talking about the PMG, and let's just say he has 200 PMGs. I've no, I have no idea how many PMGs he has, but let's just let's just say for sake of comparison, it's equal. Or like if he only has 50 PMGs, let's say his 50 feet 50 PMGs, 50 off-brand, one of ones. So like when you have that situation, now it's apples to apples, I can see there being an equivalence. But like when you have a big discrepancy, like how many black finance does Peyton have? Maybe five or ten or something? You know, like that's a pretty big discrepancy, even though they come late. That's a that's a pretty big discrepancy versus PMGs and Ruby's, which have you know dozens of dozens of copies. Just just to take there. Does anybody else want to say anything else on this topic? Nope.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

It's probably a platinum.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

All right. How do you know that?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

I don't know. It's just like the way he's phrasing it. If it was a top scrum super, he wouldn't ask it.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Okay. Okay, I see what you're saying. I see what you're getting at here. Cage says Drake needs a character limit. All right, so Ziskus.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

He doesn't have the blue check.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah. All right, I'm giving us one more fun question before we get to a quartet of questions about the grading backlog. People wanted it, so we're gonna get to it. But before we do, one more fun question. Ziskis says, please discuss stats versus cultural relevance. And I just want to let Josh think about this for 20 to 30 seconds, and I wanted to tag in Christina first because Christina, I'm dying to know what you think. Which side are you on? Stats or cultural relevance, Christina.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

I'm not on either side.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Oh, option C.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Well, like I think you have to go with like stats just make sense, like, right? Like, if you're looking to actually collect valuable cards in the future, or like cards that others will want to collect. Cultural relevance is fleeting, like one wrong move by the player later in life, or some new information tell all book gets released, and like your culture of cultural relevance plummets. So also culture is fleeting itself, like like society changes, and like the norms of society in yesteryear very much become taboo and not okay in like today's cultural relevance. So, like Carl Malone, anyone, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

All right, Josh's turn.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

This is the Dennis Rodman question. We get this question all the time. Like, Rodman's stats are terrible, but he's the worm and he has funny hair, and he knows how to predict rebounds or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

And he says, like, He studied the ball coming off the rim, man. He's like, the ball comes off the rim, right? Hey, I'm gonna be over here.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

And or it's like Alan Iverson, and then there's like the story comes out where Iverson's like refusing to sign autographs for kids and stuff. So to Christina's point, the cultural relevance shifts with the wind. And this usually refers to people who are like these aren't this aren't like Tim Tebow cultural relevance, it's not like people that are giving back to society. These are like usually people that are on the edge of society. That's what gives them the boost in the card value space. So I stick with stats.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Nice. All right. That's I think that's a pretty solid answer. I don't I don't have a ton to add to that. Uh except let me let me make uh let me let me put it to you this way. In the context of the hobby, uh who's who who's gonna who's gonna have cards to sell for more? Or cards that are more heavily collected? The player who is who has high cultural relevance but modest stats, or the player who has great stats but modest cultural relevance?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

What is Michael Jordan's cultural relevance today, other than like his brand? That's it.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

He fishes and golfs, he smokes cigars and loosens that ice bag on that kid's back.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

It was ice, it was an ice bag. That's probably a bad example because he has like the MJ brand and everything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Well, let's go the opposite. Like someone who has like decent, like good stats, but still is not culturally relevant and still no one collects them, like um uh John Stockton.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

No, he's collected. Any of those 90s guys who had a few all-star appearances, they're pretty collected.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

They're collected, but like they don't get the numbers that like if you had a Dennis Rodman, same card, or a John Stockton, who what do you think would go for more?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Rodman.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

Only there's an app for that.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, okay, good point. So you're saying those two can be an example, like John Stockton, great stats, most assists, most career assists in NBA history, most career steals in NBA history. Dennis Rodman, big cultural guy.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Yeah, same era.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

So it's not like cultural guy because he dies his hair green. Like, what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_04 14:01

He also wore a wedding dress once.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

I don't I honestly don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

He negotiated a peace treaty with uh North Korea.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Would you rather spend an afternoon with John Stockton or Dennis Rodman?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Would I rather spend an afternoon with John Stockton or two minutes with Dennis Rodman?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

I don't know. A lot of people line up to spend some time with Dennis Rodman at the National.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

That's because he's broke and he's spent all his money and he needs the cash from these signings. That's why.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Kim Jong Lone spent time if spent an afternoon with Dennis Rodman.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Would anyone care about Dennis Rodman if he didn't have the Bulls championships on the back of Michael Jordan?

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

His relevance would be a lot lower.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Doesn't he have one with uh two with the pistons and three with the bulls?

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So that's usually that's probably more what's going on there. It's like Rodman has the five rings and Stockton has zero.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

I like the you know how there used to be that like social media meme that was like, would you rather have half a million dollars or have dinner with Jay-Z? And then people are like, I'll take dinner with Jay-Z because he'll teach me everything and that'll make me trillions of dollars.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Uh I'll pay 500 grand not to have dinner with Jay-Z.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

That's not like choice C, that's like choice F.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

Yeah. You couldn't pay me. There's not enough, there's not enough money in the world. First, I don't really enjoy money. We discussed that last last week. But like, there's not enough things in the world that would get me to spend any time with Jay-Z.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Okay, okay. But my I only brought that up to say we have like the hobby version of this, which is like whoever you could tolerate the longest for an afternoon there, that that's who uh you should collect. The afternoon test.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

The culturally relevant test.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

All right, yeah, that's that's just gonna be that's a great. I love the topic of uh the stats versus cultural relevance because you got people fired up on both sides of it, and uh they both can point to examples where you know it's strong in their favor. And it's great, man. It's good that uh some people prefer the one, some people prefer the other. Oh, I did come up with something about this. I did come up with this. A great stats player can always become culturally relevant. Nice documentary, or maybe some stat that they excelled in, some other player becomes great at it. Like Wilt continues to be culturally relevant because players get triple doubles, which he had a ton of, or Victor Wanbiyama is blocking a bunch of shots, and it's like, oh guess what? Wilt's actually blocked more than him.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

You know, Wilt's Bios game.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Or at a BIOS game, you know, he scored 81 and or 83, and uh, which was the most ever on film, but you know, that reminds you everybody of Wilt's 100-point game. So like stats can uh take you into cultural relevance, but cultural relevance can never take you into statistical dominance. So that's a one-way street. Stats guys can become culturally relevant, but culturally relevant guys can never become great statistical athletes.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

All right, you mean after they finish playing?

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Correct. Okay, all right. Um let's go to this next one from oh, okay, sorry, sorry. We're uh now we're on the grading questions. All right, so this is the block where we will discuss grading. AJM Card94 says thoughts and opinions from all three of you about PSA's new turnaround times.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

There are new turnaround times, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

They're a lot, they're further out, like 115 days.

unknown 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Like what's the lowest tier turnaround time? Is like 150 or 160 days or something like that? Business days. Business days, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Business. So how many like real calendar fonts is that? Yeah, 200 or whatever. That's tough. That's tough.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

For every five, you add two.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah, we have our friends in the Pokemon space to thank for that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Oh, dude, are you serious? It's like all of them.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

So it's tough. It's tough out there, but uh, you know, what are you gonna do? First card in, first card served.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Unless you pay like expedite, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Which is still an option, but I think those turnaround or those uh yeah, those turnaround times got pushed out too. So I don't know. Here's my thought and opinion. I wish I could send my card into grading. I wish I could no, I wish I could snap my finger, the card teleports from my desk to the grading station, it gets graded immediately, and then I then it snaps right back, and af after five seconds, I have the perfectly encapsulated, perfectly accurately graded card on my table.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

You forgot though, but it has to be a PSA 10.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Well, I just want it to be accurately graded, all right? Because that's that's a question of the card, not of the grader. I just want the grader to accurately grade it, and I I want it to take five seconds. No, why five? I want it to be instant. I want it to happen right away. And anything, the further we get from that, the less I like it.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Let me tell you about NFTs, sir. You would love this new space that I have. I can read the turnaround times. You want to hear it?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Value bulk. This is collector's club only, 140 to 160 business days. Value 100 to 120 business days, value plus 60 to 80, and then 40 to 50, 30 to 40. The cheap, the fastest one, which is an insured value of ten thousand dollars a card, is five to seven business days, which is still not bad.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

How much did that one cost?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Five to seven days, six hundred dollars, but that's only up to ten thousand dollars a card.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Oof, okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

So 160 business days, you have to add 64 weekend days, so you get 224 calendar days. That's a year.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I was being obnoxious, but the point I'm making is that like the longer it takes to get the graded cards back, that's tough. Now, uh to uh speak in the uh affirmative for card letter sister company, PSA, which are both owned by collectors. I believe news came out last week that PSA is putting$200 million into infrastructure expansion and so on and so forth. So hopefully this will get remedied, but uh it's tough. That's just that's a tough situation. I think everybody is I don't know anybody who would be glad that it's going to take longer to get their cards back. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

More people are sending them. It's just like there's like this strike of May or whatever, and that's like their highest grading month ever. So the more people get angry, the more people send in the cards continuously with PSA. So what are we really complaining about?

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Fair. Okay. The next one here, Michigan Collectibles says, when do we start grading cards with someone other than PSA? This backlog is a little ridiculous. So what about this idea? What about this idea of grade somewhere else? Grade with CGC, grade with tag, grade with BGS, grade with SGC.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

The next question's interesting because by the time you get the card back, the player you graded might be irrelevant.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

You know, we ran into some of this in 2020, but by the time you got all your Trey Young based Prism cards back, they were worthless, you know.

unknown 21:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

Don't remind me. Um Stiff makes a interesting point in the chat. The NFL comes back in 118 days. So if you didn't get the jump previously on your off season grading, like you're not getting these card your cards back before pre like the season starts.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Right. Right. So the next question was from Bakerboard who said, What kind of effect do you think the slow grading turnaround will have in the card market? And you two just gave some great thoughts on that. 240 cards says. It's also he's he's basically saying, What about when you forget that you even sent in cards and then it's a surprise?

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Oh, I forgot that I even sent these in. That was happening in 2021. Remember, it's like, yeah, we you even us we were getting back hundred card orders, like whoa, I forgot I sent these.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah, yes, totally. And I think the correction of 2023 and 2024 was probably impacted to some extent by the actual shutdown of grading that happened, where the intake was so enormous that didn't all of the grading companies shut down for quite a while. I think that's right.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

That's when HGA came in.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah, and then HGA came in. Hybrid the hybrid grading approach. But yeah, I think PSA, BGSA, and SGC all had to shut down due to just volumes that flooded their HQs. And uh and I and I think that um that made it really difficult for people to generate any income from buying raw cards and grading them. And I I think that slowed things down a lot. So I I think that could I think I think there's a potential for that to happen here. That uh it wouldn't be as extreme, obviously, because we're not shutting down, but like making people wait two-thirds of a year to get their cards back because they have to, because there's just that much demand for grading right now, that could really gum things up a little bit, that could slow things down a little bit, that could make it more difficult for people to transact and continue to build up bank rolls and stuff. What do you what do you think about that, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah, it's always an issue. It's it's it's such a long time that you can't even plan for your finances, you know. It's just it's so long. Because a lot of the grading is like, I'm using this to fund future purchases, but now that's on hold, you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

All right, what about this point from Greg Midlife Cards? And Mookie Chilson also makes the point too. The point they make so Greg says the longer turnaround times could help the value on the lower tier prospects that have already been graded. So there's like a supply, and the supply isn't going to increase as fast. And then Mookie Chilson says every time grading gets slower and more expensive, does the value of the currently graded cards increase?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

But that that's like implying that because the turnaround time is slower, that they're grading less. It's that's not the issue. They're actually grading more. It's just that there's so many of them that it's pushing them to the back of the line. So the the population is still gonna increase at the same rate, if not faster.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

Right, but the people who got the jump start are taking like get to take the advantage of the low pop for longer, potentially. Because those raw cards are like tied up in receiving.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I don't but those those raw cards are like continuously through the line still. You're saying like when they first release?

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

All right, well, we'll find out. We'll we'll get the data on this here in the next six months. And then uh Dennis Patrick Zender to give us our final question on this uh grading news. Now the collectors has purchased Beckett. Do you anticipate a narrowing of the delta between PSA and BGS prices on rarer cards or cards with known condition issues?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

No.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

Yeah, is isn't is he talking about like upcharge PSA upcharges? Or is he talking about like the secondary market?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Secondary market.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Oh, okay. Um I don't think so. I think part of the the value of PSA is knowing that there's a guarantee behind it. So when you buy it on the secondary market from someone else who already graded it, PSA is standing behind that grade and that card being authentic and that numeric grade. So I think that's what drives the value.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Nailed it.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

It's gonna widen, it's gonna widen. These games only widen. I'm I'm already seeing a lot more from the LeBron Exquisite space. I'm seeing a lot more people grade that stuff with PSA. And when I first started collecting it, it was all basically all BGS. And now it's like now there's a a pretty big premium for some of that stuff being in PSA.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Yeah, yeah. I that that train left the station half a decade ago, maybe a little bit more. Yeah. Let me give a question to you, the two of you. Having lived through Mark's cards, having lived through the PSA shutdown and BGS SGC shutdown of 2021, 2022, what would you tell somebody about that era who didn't experience it? Pick somebody who came back to the hobby in 2023 or 2024. Just give them a sentence, please, about this is what it was like back in my day.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Uh, do you really want to grade those cards before you send them in? Are you sure? Are you sure you want to grade that Pikachu McDonald's card?

SPEAKER_02 27:05

There is a Pokemon card with a pop of 300,000.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

That's not correct, sir.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

It's more, it's like 354,000. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah, it's like insane. It's not even it's not even believable. How many turtles are dead because of that goddamn card?

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Not a set. Not a set. No, one card.

unknown 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah, let me pull it up. Let me pull it up.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

It is 331,000. It's the two. And dude, the bet here's the best part. What here's the best part. That card was produced in 2025. Like, what the heck? It's not it's a year old. Because the next two cards are the Upper Deck Griffey, which is, you know, 36 years at this point. And then the 99 Charizard. And then it's like 2025. Tough.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

And the Upper Deck Griffey is like the example that everyone holds up as like the oversaturated market for sports cards.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

It's literally Pikachu eating a friggin' McDonald's hamburger.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Matt Holmes wants to see it. Can you can we see?

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

Only when you are good for me to share your screen, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah, I'm ready. Do I have to push something?

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah, you have to like submit it. You have to hit present.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Jordan Hudson wants a live look. Can we give the man a live look?

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Alright, it's on the screen.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Christina, will you bring that on board? Okay, there we go. There's a little McDonald's logo on it. Nice. Yeah. Branding. What the heck is going on? Can you zoom in at all? I'm sorry. I need to I really need to see the artwork here. So he's Pikachu is pulled up. Is he standing on the seat of his chair, leaning over a table, getting ready to feast on some Mickey D's?

SPEAKER_03 29:08

And it looks like it's like corn next to it.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Or like corn and peas and carrots kind of deal. And then orange juice. This is crazy.

SPEAKER_04 29:18

I think that's the like the like high sea orange drink. That McDonald's, every kid always drank at McDonald's.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Oh yeah, I love that drinking kid. Yeah, what's this card? What's this card worth? In a PSA 10, it's not even a hundred bucks. Dude, look at the pop spread. The gem rate 87%. In a PSA 10, it's 265,000. Just PSA.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Bro, dude, how many just push yourself in the mind or the spirit of the people that grade this card, and they're just like, oh my god, I can't look at another Pikachu McDonald's.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Okay, okay, good. All right, Josh. Because here's what I need to understand.

SPEAKER_05 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Let's just zoom in on the 260 some thousand PSA tens. Just the tens. Who owns these? Everyone.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

Literally less than$100.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

So like Christina, do you have one of these? Do you do you do either of you know a single person who owns one of these to your knowledge?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

No. No.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Not to my no. Does anybody in the chat own one of these?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

What if there's one guy with like a hundred thousand PSA 10s?

SPEAKER_02 30:32

That's what I'm saying. What if somebody is just piling these?

SPEAKER_01 30:37

How many of those do you think are on eBay right now?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

A thousand plus? I don't know. So many, probably.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Dude, that card might be the face of the next, like when the when the bubble bursts on this, because it will. Especially Pokemon, especially this PSA 10 Pokemon stuff. It's going to pop hard. That card should be the face of it. And I've never seen anyone ever talk about that card. I've never seen it before. This is my first exposure to it, to your point. But it could be the face of this pop.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Right. Because like you really have to actually stop and think about the mechanics of this situation. There are 260,000 PSA 10s out there somewhere in the world. They are accumulated somewhere. There's some in some guy's house. There's maybe five in this other guy's house. How many are in Japan? How many are in China? How many are in Australia? How many are in Germany? How many are in Canada? Like these, like you really have to think about this idea that there's there's just a quarter million plus of these out there. And they all have to be somewhere. They have to be in the box somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

There's more of that card than the next two combined.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

I don't think there's enough. I think until we hit one card for each person. There's just not enough. Think of the stadiums full of Pokemon fans, and they all want a PSA 10. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

What's the concept of yeah? Somebody's shooting on fireworks. The concept of the card is like a promotional piece for Pokemon in which country? Was it Japan, I think, maybe?

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Yeah, it's Japanese.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yeah, Japanese. Okay. So good lord. Okay. All right. Well, uh, I like what Cage had to say some uh summarizing the uh 2021-2022. He said, here's the summary. People graded hoops premium stock base cards of Jalen Noel. Who? Yeah, that sums it up. I was a part of that problem too. I'm not I'm not giving myself a pass here. All right, so that's enough on the grading questions. Let's move on to some more questions now. PLB Card says, Among collectors who use social media, how much of their motivation to buy cards is based on actually wanting the card compared to using their pickups as fodder for their content. Another way to think about this, what do collectors on social media enjoy more? Do they enjoy owning the cards or do they enjoy creating the content about the cards?

SPEAKER_01 33:14

This is impossible to answer, but he did a nice job by saying, giving us the caveat that this is among collectors who use social media. So I think inherently, if you're using social media, you are drawn to wanting to share it. But I'll say like 25%.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

25% which way? 25% uh want to actually own the card, or 25% are more motivated by getting to show it off.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

More motivated by the showing off.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Okay. Christina?

SPEAKER_04 33:44

But I again we talked about this last week. I feel like I I have to like remind myself and actively like be like, no, just do it now. To take a photo and post the cards that I pick up.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah, I don't know if these two necessarily are opposites. Like, think about as a metaphor, think about the musician. So let's say a musician sits by themselves in a studio and composes a beautiful song. And initially it's because they like how it sounds, but eventually they want to show it off and they want other people to hear it. And the more people that hear it and like it, I've generally speaking, I think they're going to get some sort of satisfaction out of that too. I think the same thing with card collecting to some degree. I think the card collector certainly can get a great pleasure out of owning the card, and that's it. But the pleasure and the enjoyment of the experience can be multiplied by taking the time to create content and to show the card off, too. What do you say to that, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, but I think PLB cards is really more getting at the person who's like not the musician sitting in the studio at all. He's he's thinking about like the AR who like just wants to take the song and like just have everybody see me. Like I'm the guy who discovered this, and like there's no actual passion for the music or the song. It's just like they just want the accolades and then they're gonna move on. Very transactional. So I get the criticism. All right. Another one from the Hobby G. What is the one best basketball card ever produced? And so so since he's saying best, there is no right answer here. Everybody gets to decide what's best for themselves. And so that's an important caveat to this. But uh anyway, what is the one best basketball card ever produced? And here's the thing it must be a specific example, so it can't be all copies of the 86 Fleur Michael Jordan, it has to be one copy of it. So it could be the highest graded, or since there's uh six BGS 10s, I think it could be the best condition of those BGS 10s, or maybe you think a PSA 10 is in a better condition than one of those. But the point is it just needs to be a single card, and it's only basketball. So does anybody have one that they'd like to make the case for?

SPEAKER_01 36:14

98, 99, MJ, Gem Master.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Gem Masters, all right.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

That's my that's my best card, and I don't have to worry about which one because it's a 101.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

True. Okay. And what's the factors that go into that? Beautiful card, metal universe product, late 90s one of one. Is there anything Michael Jordan? Is there anything more to it?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Just that like he doesn't have that many 90s 101s, and it's you know, probably like the most popular brand of the ones that he does have, and I don't know. He doesn't like he obviously doesn't have anything close to a rookie year of one on one.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Okay. Yes, correct. He doesn't. Now for now, Grant told me that his vote is Curry's NT Logoman Autograph 1 of 1. And he gave me some reasons. Uh let me just go find them real quick. He said, uh, put in my vote for the Steph Curry NT rookie logoman autograph one of one. It's his only rookie logo man first year of oh, in the first year of uh NT for basketball and for Panini. So uh do you do you have any commentary on that?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

It's creative. I like the thought because he's thinking like uh Logoman Auto, and he's trying to find like the earliest great player that has one of that, you know. Because LeBron doesn't have one of those, MJ doesn't have one. So he's trying to well LeBron has the horizontal one, so he's trying to think of like the NT vertical, you know, so he's like thinking creatively.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Christina?

SPEAKER_04 37:57

I'm not a fan of patch autos, so like best obviously subjective, so I'm gonna subjectively nix that idea for myself. Um it I don't know. Like I'd have to like I I'd have to sit with this one for a while.

SPEAKER_05 38:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

It's it's a rough question.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

That's why I told Grant too. I was like, look, like you'll probably get some answers tonight, but I really just like the question because let's just say the question. I bet the people who listen to this will come up with ideas in their head and then, or maybe even there will be spin-off content, and other content creators will try to tackle this question for basketball or for other sports and just make the case for what the best card is. I just think that's a really fun thought exercise. And then I don't really think about cards in terms of best cards. I think that there are measurables on cards. I could tell you, you know, pick a player, I could tell you what their first one of one is. I could do something like that, or what their first card is, or you know, etc. But uh, but the best thing, it just kind of trips me up a little bit. I like a lot of different cards, and like best card could really change from day to day. I think Gem Masters is a great choice for Michael Jordan, Curry and LeBron's logo man autographs from their rookie year are great choices. Depends, like how important is the player, you know. Like, are you huge on player or you know, maybe you just love the 48 Bowman as the first sort of basketball-only set, I think it is. But all right. Uh from Romo Collector, the hobby throws around the word boycott pretty casually these days, most recently aimed at PSA. Everyone seems to think something is ruining the hobby. But it got me thinking if collectors could successfully boycott one thing in the hobby and it actually worked, what would genuinely benefit the average collector the most in the long term? Side note, I'm pretty sure Josh will just answer boycott questions like these.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

No, come on, I have an answer.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Some examples I was thinking of are boycott endless parallels, boycott influencer hype cycles, etc. What's your answer, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 40:07

I am just like really hyper focused on this gambling problem we have in society. So I would just boycott all gambling as it relates to cards. What take take that for whatever you want, whatever version of gambling that is, which is basically like most of the hobby. So it's like most of the businesses that prop up the hobby, so it's probably like has all these ripple effects and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Dude, that's a totally valid answer. Christina, do you have one?

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Um like one person. Like yeah, literally just one person leaving, I think would benefit the rest of the like industry. Um, I think that you know, influencers would would be great to get rid of.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Boycott the influencers.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Yeah. Like if you're not here for the cards, like see yourself out. That's the way I look at it. If you're here for the cards, like cool, make content. But if you're not here for the cards, like please just leave. Like no one, no one, you're not going to get famous by collecting sports, like by not even collecting sports cards.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Yeah. All right. Well, I'll take a different tack here just to keep it interesting. The libertarian streak says my libertarian streak says, I don't want to tell anybody what to do. So why don't I just curate the situation for myself, fix it, change what I'm being exposed to if I don't like it. And it's just tough. It's like, what do I want to boycott? Like, what do I want to put out of business? I don't know. I don't want to put anybody out of business. It's tough. But you know, but the counter to that, obviously, is that uh, you know, you you don't know it. We aren't just like people living in our own vacuums. Uh, the consequences and things that other people do do spill over and affect us too. So a culture of gambling in the hobby could have a nasty spillover effect onto me. It could, it could have catastrophic consequences for the hobby potentially. So, you know, but I don't know. I have a hard time. I don't I'm I'm not in a rush to boycott anything. Yeah, but like Moogie said, boycott boycotts. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah, I just think the gambling like goes hand in hand with like a lot of the systems being rigged against people versus corporations and versus government and printing money infinitely and inflation. It's like, oh, here's your out, guys. Something else we set up for you to get screwed on. It just is like compiling and compounding all the shit, you know. I just feel like it's like the last they just like give us this last resort. It's like yet another thing for everyone to get screwed on.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Yeah, I agree. I I want to boycott anything that's doing harm to people that those people aren't voluntarily and fully knowingly signing up for, undue free of any corrupt corruptive or manipulative influence, right? Like if somebody is hurting somebody somebody else against that person's will, let's boycott that, and that's everything. All things that fall under that category. But if people want to be idiots and they want to knowingly do things that are reckless and they know the risks and they're not hurting other people while they're doing it, I have a hard time trying to stop them from doing it.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

Same. It's like the infinite loop of not telling other people what to do. Right, right. It's like, should I ban heroin or just you know, people are just gonna get it any they're gonna do crazy stuff anyways? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

All right.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Cage says we should boycott using tape on top loaders. And I think he means scotch tape, and I'm for this as well.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Okay. Good. Yeah, let's lower the stakes a little bit. Let's boycott something light. All right. Um I place this question in a prominent position because when I did some background research on it before the show, I found something delightful. This question is from LSU Tiger Collector 65. This is his favorite topic, and it's my favorite topic that he brings up as well. He says, I'm anticipating a pre-national bump for shitbeast and or crypto dick butt. Asking for a friend. Alright. So I took this as an invitation to go see what the uh quote unquote floor price was. Now, floor price was always an amusing concept to me. It's not actually what anything sold for, it's just what's the cheapest you could buy it for at that moment. I looked that up for shitbeast, and I was surprised I couldn't find the coin gecko page for it because it used to always have a coin gecko page that would show this beautiful chart that looked like a mountain sloping into the ground. But the coin gecko page was gone. And instead, it took me to some different page, some like Forbes page or something. And that page told me that there are 2,400 some owners of shitbeasts, and the floor price on those is zero dollars. The shit beast quite literally went to zero dollars, according to that Forbes page that I found. And then it also uh calculated the market gap, which is where you take how many exist and you multiply by the current price, and so they took 2400, they multiplied it by zero, and the market cap was zero as well. So shitbeast has completely zeroed out. You remember last week we were actually just saying nothing can go to zero because somebody will buy well, Josh, something finally went to zero.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

So so let me get this straight. I could create a MetaMask Coinbase account and go and just literally just get them.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Fucking make your MetaMask.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

But this is like do you remember though when like you and I were railing on the floor price, and someone would come in and be like, Yeah, but so you know, only one person's gonna sell there. You can't buy the best ones with that, like the best uh, you know, the floor price of the stupid I dude, I already forget all the names of like the monkeys and all that stuff. Yeah, the floor price is 2,000, but my you know, silver faced one is worth 20 grand. So good luck getting mine from me, you know. So is there a shippy stan out there who's like, you guys are ridiculous? Mine's worth 10 grand. Yes, there's one that's worth zero.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

But if but if but if there is, play it out.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Play it out.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Like, if there is though, why wouldn't that guy go and buy that one or those three for one dollar and then like raise the floor price and be like, no, these are now a hundred dollars.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Yeah, just to cite my source, it is Forbes slash digital assets slash NMT slash shit beast. 24 hour volume is zero dollars, which reflects a zero percent change. 2242 owners, floor price of zero dollars. That's zero ETH, by the way. And the market cap is also zero dollars. Shitbeast is traded on the Ethereum blockchain.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Is this the part where you tell me that crypto dick butt are worth tons of money?

SPEAKER_02 47:49

It looks like the last time they had like a floor price registered was December 27th of 2024,$6.31.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

What was the last time you heard anyone talk about NFTs in a serious forum?

SPEAKER_04 48:04

2023?

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Great question.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Um where like you encountered somebody who's like not, you know, they're like you you know them and you're like, whoa, wow, let me hear about this.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Well, this is like a half answer, but there are still people doing the sports card NFTs, the Panini NFTs.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

So the only thing that's still going is the literal sports card adjacent version of NFTs.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

But uh those are those are weird though, because so Upper Deck has epacks and then Panini has blockchain, but like some of those can be like transferred into physical copies of those cards. So it like it it crosses the line to me of like it's a hybrid, it's like an electric and gas car, like at that point.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Like, right, quick poll of the chat. Sivarm wax says, Would you rather have a shit beast or a Pikachu McDonald's card? I'm very curious to know.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Oof Pikachu McDonald's, because at least like there are enough dummies who are willing to pay for that at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

All right, hear me out. Hear me out. The shit beast and the dick butt are kind of like part of the show. So like if we actually okay, I see the Zag coming here, please. The problem is that like we would have to like literally figure out how to get one in our possession or whatever that means. But if let's say we did and it wasn't like a security risk, which it is, by the way, that was like one of the big scams that they lied to us about. Is that oh, these are more secure, you know, whatever. Uh it's a huge security risk, but let's assume there isn't a security risk. What if our team somehow procured like a hundred of these things and then we could just be the flag bearers for these two things?

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Love it. Fantastic Zag. Okay. We'd like to sponsor the uh shit beast. The LSU Tiger Collector 65 is one person, for example, who, if you said, what's the first thing that comes into your mind when you think of the crossover? He's gonna say shit beasts and crypto dickbuts. It is a part of our identity, it is part of what the show has become. We are the standard bearers for the shit beast and the crypto dickbutt. We continue its legacy. Unironically. Unironically.

SPEAKER_04 50:37

So someone in the pop baggins in the chat is saying he's on open sea and it would take about five dollars each to get a shit beast.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Oh bound, it bounced back that quickly.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

You guys made me pay like ten or fourteen dollars for that fucking top shot bullshit once live during crossover. So I feel like we should just buy a shit beast right now for five dollars.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Dude, Dylan says it's not even close. Give me the Pikachu. It's a card, and I actually want one, knowing all the crazy print run info just to be part of the fun. So, yeah, so there's a meme element to that too. Definitely a meme element to that too. All right, but uh, we'll keep an eye on that. I always appreciate when the great LSU Tiger Collector asks us to do a little check-in. All right, uh great question here from Chris Cards, Casey. Very provocative question. It's kind of in the lane of that stats versus culture thing, but it's a slightly different question. He says, why don't Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Sanders markets get penalized for no rings?

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Uh, because Griffey is in baseball, and I think baseball is known as like, doesn't matter, it's just individual, and Barry Sanders is a running back. That's why.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Got it.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

But also, how do you know they're not being penalized?

SPEAKER_03 51:59

Like penalized or penalized? I mean, it's the penal code, not the penal code. Have you seen their card prices?

SPEAKER_04 52:05

They are not, but imagine you have Griffe as a cultural and stat person who then has rings, like that market could be even higher, is what I'm saying. Like, yeah, you don't like it. Give me the similar who has the rings.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

What percentage of Otani's value on the index is because of his two rings.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

You know, I've got the zag on that.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

I bet you do.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

When a guy wins a title, but a teammate was the MVP of the big series. I think that's a knock, not uh accolade.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Has Otani won a World Series MVP?

SPEAKER_03 52:57

No, sir. Whoa. Who won the first who won them?

SPEAKER_04 53:01

I gotta I gotta interrupt.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Freddie Freeman, I think, won the first one, and then I think the pitcher won the second one.

SPEAKER_04 53:07

I got I'm interrupting.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

Um, Jordan Hudson said that his eight-year-old son just walked into the garage where he's listening to us, and he goes, What in the world is a shit beast?

SPEAKER_01 53:21

Yes, correct. You were wrong about both MVPs.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Oh no, they're not bad.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

This last year was we heard, yeah. Okay, shit beast and dick butt. Come on, shout out dick butts.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

I think we weren't saying the word dick butts at that point.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

All right, the MVP was Yoshin, it's is literally like the other Japanese guy in the team. Yeah, the pitcher. So you just got the ears mixed up.

SPEAKER_02 53:47

Okay, got it. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

So he did not that that the point is he did not win World Series on the year. He was the second best Japanese pitcher on the team.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Oh uh, but it but anyway, here's an alternative answer is that uh the reason why their markets don't suffer is because the people who want to buy their cards aren't buying them for the rings. How about that? How about it's as simple as that? But I do I take the point is well taken. The point is that uh there seems to be different standards applied to different players. Some players get hammered if they don't have enough titles. Other players other players have no titles and people still love them anyway. So it's like it's I think there's a there's something that that sort of bothers people's need for logical consistency. That different players are held to different standards.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Well, different collectors have different standards.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Absolutely, absolutely right. All right, let's go on to uh TCG Sports Cars who asks the eternal question is this still a hobby since it evolves money and value, isn't it now a side hustle or a business?

SPEAKER_01 55:02

I mean it's been like this for decades, dude.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

Yeah, exactly. I th I just there's this question is evergreen, and it's evergreen because going to the logical contradiction point, I think it bothers some people that sports card collecting masquerades sometimes behind the phrase the hobby, which sort of implies puppies and roses and people scrapbooking and having low stakes fun. And actually, it's quite a cutthroat business at times. And certainly people have a lot of money involved, and the stakes are actually quite high and serious, and it's it's a real thing where people make and lose money and so on and so forth. I think I think every time, you know, or at least when I see that question, that's one of the things that comes to my mind is like somebody is like just wants to remind people like it's so it can feel a little deceptive if we don't put a spotlight on the fact that there are real business and entrepreneurial and financial components to what we do.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

Yeah, this question comes up more when things are hot. There's more friction between, hey, I'm just here for the hobby, you guys are annoying me, you're gonna be gone soon. You know, there's a lot of that back and forth. And then there's a lot of like, you know, oh, you're just jealous because we came in and we're making this money and you're stuck with the same cards you've had. You know, it's just this constant like back and forth.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

I'm with Cage. I want to hear more about this puppy hobby.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

I want to go back. The great Ankesh uh has has pointed out uh that he does believe actually Griffey and Sanders have been punished for not having rings.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

That's what I said.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Okay, I wanted to give that point of view some answers as well.

SPEAKER_04 56:50

He okay, when you guys do it, it's like funny, but you can't just like then give credit for what I say to like onkesh for repeating it.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

But like Barry Sanders cards wildly outsell Emmett Smith. Right, and that's kind of like the perfect comparison to this question, right? Yeah, because Emmett Smith has the rings, but he all and Emmett Smith has better volume stats.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

And Emmett Smith has a Super Bowl MVP.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

Yeah, he's just got like way more of the team accolades, but he it's not like he's a slouch either. He does have like huge stats.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Absolutely, yeah. So I don't know how I don't know how to argue that there was a greater running back than Emmett Smith.

SPEAKER_03 57:33

I've tried, I've looked at it from a number of ways. I think it's because Barry is more culturally relevant, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:40

Highlights something, something, something spin moves and like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Jim Brown has an argument because he has three MVPs. Three MVPs from the running back position is spectacular. So, all right.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

He was playing against plumbers, though.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

Right. Yes, the plumber discount. Okay. Alright, we're up, we're coming up against the hour.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Uh is there one more question that really is like if we don't get to this, I'm gonna lose sleep.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Um all of them know. Uh God, there we there's there's a lot of uh great questions that we didn't get to. Um could I could I beg of you to go for 15 more minutes and let's rapid fire through these? Yeah. All right. JL Myers says, How many need how many years need to go by for nostalgia to hit and for the buyers to have money? I was into Michael Jordan as a kid as late as 1993, and I came back in 2020 like many people did. COVID was unique, but did it take about 25 years, 20 years, 30 years? Could this be used to predict when modern players like Curry will reach their highest values? And I'm gonna cut the question off there just so we can fly through.

SPEAKER_04 58:47

I'm gonna say 20.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

How long? Yeah, Christina says 20 for nostalgia to hit and for the people who feel nostalgic to have.

SPEAKER_04 58:53

Because when you have money, you usually have disposable income in your 30s, like on average. So I'm gonna say 20.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So we're seeing the Pokemon mega boom right now, and they peaked for child for kids my age when I was 10, and that came out in 99. So those numbers line up.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

Nice. Okay, good. Diamond Mind Card says, as culture becomes increasingly fragmented and personalized due to the rise of optionality and how we consume media, do you think we will experience an athlete from outside of the four major sports truly break into the broader cultural zeitgeist and become collectible in the long term, like Tiger Woods or to a lesser extent Michael Phelps? If so, what would it take for someone outside of the four major sports in this fragmented, decentralized social media environment, to emerge and occupy meaningful space in the modern collecting hobby?

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Does Caitlin Clark count?

SPEAKER_02 59:50

That's who I thought of immediately too. Caitlin Clark is, I think, a good example of that.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Yep. She's already in there.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

But I also sort of have a zag against this, which is that because media is now fragmented and decentralized and personalized, and like everybody's sort of curating their own little media experience, it makes it much, much, much more difficult for there to ever be a monolithic consensus about who any you know transcendent superstar is. And instead, everybody's gonna have their little niche, their little person that they follow. But Caitlin Clark has defied that to some extent. I mean, if Messi wins the World Cup again this year, like wouldn't he be like I do think Messi is a little bit of a holdover from the prior era, though. I think he had accumulated and accomplished so much on a global stage that he's not quite the he's not quite the same as somebody coming of age in at this moment. I guess mostly soccer cards says with fanatics saying that they intend to make a big push for more game used patch cards, especially within football, will the Panini era's non-associated and player-worn patch cards lose appeal to collectors as we grow accustomed to and expect game-worn? Even Patrick Mahomes' 2017 flawless patches are player-worn. I'm curious if the hobby might start to raise up auto-only cards from this era.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

That's a good question to just uh have it sit. I don't think we any of us have like the crystal ball to answer it, and we're not really in that space too much, and we don't really care about the game use aspect, but it is like a good uh thought, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:28

Totally agree. It's a it's a good thought. The in all the things that it implies logically make plenty of sense. I do have two zags against it. One zag is that uh I think player-worn, if it's reasonable to infer that the player-worn material comes from the rookie photo shoot, I think there's a singularness to the rookie photo shoot that's very rare and appetizing because these guys only get together for one rookie photo shoot ever. So materials that come from that event that were worn and used during that event are have a unique and a unique specialness. Now, the non-associated stuff, certainly not for me. Uh it would, it sort of, when I turn, if I would ever turn over my card and sort of see non-associated, I'd cringe. But I think that's partially peer pressure that makes me feel that way. Because at the end of the day, what's the difference between a card that has a manufactured patch or a non-associated patch and a card that doesn't? It's they're just at that point, it's just an ornament, it's just a design element. So if it's just a design, I I think the problem is the letdown. The problem is that you're hoping that it's game worn, the expectations that it's game worn, or at least event worn, player worn. And when it's none of those things and there's like a letdown, there's sort of a cringe. But if we can reframe that to think of them just as ornamental design features, but I I think that sort of like is a framing to cure the problem, but nobody's gonna want to do that because we don't want to let the manufacturer off the hook. We want the manufacturer to know that we really want the game worn, and that's true. I think we do really want the game worn. Does anybody want to add anything to that? Nope. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:54

I don't care about patches.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

Card Shop Dad says if you had to pick three basketball sets, base or insert, to display on your wall is art, which three are you taking? And I'll let you guys think about this uh while um I fire off my answer because I already thought about this. The three that I would do, I would do 9798 Ultra Basketball, because that's the first uh the the masterpiece, because that's the first one of one basketball set. I would do 90, and then so that has a lot of historical significance. And then I would also do two sets, two one of one sets that I really like, which come from the second year. I would do 98.99 upper deck, gold one of one. I've displayed that because I love the design. And I would do 98.99 ultra uh purple masterpiece one of one because I think those look really neat too. Now, those are my three choices. I'm not saying those are the most significant hobby-wise, but I think on a question like this, I don't want to do the generic thing. I want to do something that actually expresses my taste and something that's unique and something that lets me tell a story about what I like as opposed to just kind of conforming to what everybody else likes. Okay, Christina, do you have three basketball sets that you'd like to display?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:59

Um, like full sets or I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

I didn't write the question.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:06

Yeah, no, I'm um that's my death groan.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:13

Um I gave you like two minutes to think about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

Okay, no, you didn't. You think that you like you have a demented like time situation.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:26

Answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

Uh noise boys. I like the look of that. I think it would look cool on the wall. Um, because you're like displaying it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

Um what about the prism neon green pass break 2020?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:39

Yes, because then if I had the full set, thank you, Cage. Thank you, Cage. The prism.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

You have to have the card.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

No, because then I would have the card and then I would finish the rainbow. Thank you, Cage. There you go. I just have one the 2020 Prism Neon Green out of five.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

Nice. Okay. And a third or no?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:05

Um I really like the 2017 die cut from Select.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

Great choice.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:13

Like the blacks, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

Love the black select die cuts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Alright. Josh? Yeah, I would just pull from my collection. I would do 03 gold, finest. Uh oh four emblems, exquisite. Uh trying to get a good mix.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:31

I don't have emblems of endorsement.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Uh oh eight limited logos exquisite. Excellent. Those three display well.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

I would literally love to look at all of those display wells. All right. From stacking slabs, what's more yucky? The overly defensive player collector, for example, the habitual stat shower and picker of fights, or the hobby industry complainer. For example, whenever there is any update from any company, they complain and they act like it is the end of the world. You can just choose one if you want and leave it there.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:07

I'm gonna say the industry complainer.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:12

Because like at least the defensive player collector, like he's invested, or she is, like, so you could at least have a conversation with them, not about their player, and you'd be able to enjoy that conversation. The afternoon test that we were doing earlier. The hobby complainer, like I would commit violence towards them before the afternoon was over.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

Yeah, I'm just like endlessly annoyed with the complaining about PSA or complaining about every company or complaining about too many parallels. It's just like this is a pick your own adventure hobby. You don't like just because there's all this news coming down and all the same 500 accounts post the same news story every day doesn't mean you have to conform to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Great answers. I'll take the other one for sport. I'm going to say that the uh overly defensive PC guy is more annoying. And here's why. It's very adversarial. Sometimes it's it's against me, or I'm against that person, and so we're clashing heads. But the hobby complainer, I can throw in my lot with them and we can all complain together and we can all get along and hold hands. So the hobby comp the person complained about companies and stuff, we can all have and share in those gripes. None of those gripes are actually like adversarial against me. But the defensive player collector, you know, maybe we're clashing over players. Like they think that, you know, maybe I'm a maybe I'm a Scottie Pippen guy and they're a uh Michael Jordan guy, and uh, you know, I'm I'm saying why Pippen really carried the bulls, and they're like, no, Jordan did. And so that can become a clash. But the in the other case, we can all join together and and unite our hatred and aim it at a singular corporate entity. From WWE Gelman, I love chasing down the 1-1 blacks and oh, this is a great question. This is a really difficult question. I I don't know how to answer this. I love chasing down the 1-1 blacks and superfractors as a main chase of my shiny friendly PC. I think since their inception, the league logo patch autos, so like the logoman autograph, the shield autograph, these have always been the main grail for value and for benchmarking. Do you feel that it's important to have both chases exist at a similar level of prestige? Or is it more important that the league branding grail stand above for the sake of exposure and for the ease of understanding? And would your stance change if you were looking at it from the manufacturer or the marketing side as opposed to the collector side? So, like, Josh, do you want to take a stab at this one?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

So, this is like, should we put more value in the top scrum because that's the current license? That's what he's saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

Or yeah, or that's the specific example he's saying is this like let's think of the Panini era, skip the top scrum era for a second. In the Panini era, the crown grail of any basketball release is the NT logoman autograph one of one. And he's saying, is there actually something functionally very effective about this? Because we all agree that this is the thing that sets the benchmark, this is the most expensive one, and everything else can sort of tear down and fall into its place in relation to it. And he's saying, what if we threw that off? What if we like what if that stopped being true? What if like things got a little more messier and a little more wild westy, and like maybe you know, some other more obscure card becomes the the most desired one? Like, would that actually destabilize things? Is it better to have the stability?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

Better in what sense, though? Like values for everybody and we all get rich?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

Exactly. Exactly. What's better? That's why he says, like, so think about it from the industry point of view versus the collector's point of view. Well, I think marketing wise, such a hard question.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

Marketing wise, like I'm sure we we've also seen it in recent memory, very recent memory. The marketers love the autos and the patches because then they get to say, like, look at the connection to this piece to the player. It's not just the design that like marks it as connected to the player. They can have videos of the player signing it, they could have pictures of them wearing the debut patches. Like, so I think that marketing-wise, on the business side, you have to go with the the league logo patch autos. That's how he phrased it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

Good answer. Good answer, good question. Food for thought for any list term. All right, I want to do really quickly three more and then we're gonna be done. MN Sports 12 says, Do you view dual player cards differently if they are on opposite sides of the card versus sharing a side? So Kobe and Jordan have the east-west refractor, they're on opposite sides of the card, Jordan on one side, Kobe on the other, or you have the dual logament autograph of Jordan and Kobe, they're both on the front. Do you prefer one? Does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

Prefer both on the front because the back is kind of reserved for especially like for scans and pictures. And the labels on the other side, you can't verify they're both on the card because you have to turn it over.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:14

Yeah, I think that it depends on the card for an auto patch card. I want them both on the front. But for a like designed card, I like that you get each player their own design on one side. Like I love the East West that it is one player. Like I it would be too busy if they were both on this front.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:39

All right, right. Nice. Okay, uh the penultimate question from Kiwi Cards: how much value do you put on color matches? And are there good and bad color matches? Josh, do you care about color matching?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:51

Not really, but I I see why people like it, especially in the world of 50 parallels. You have your favorite player, and maybe you can't afford the gold prism or something, or you don't want the gold or the black, and you're just like, okay, what's the difference between the purple and the red? Maybe it's the color match that's like a tiebreaker.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

Yeah. Christina.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:13

No, I don't care. I mean, aesthetically it's nice, but like it, I I don't like actively go after a color match. I want the one of one.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

Onkash says the Bowman chrome puke brown that they used one year instead of gold is an example of a bad color match. Okay, good. Because I was wondering what is that, and that makes a lot of sense. All right, let me get to the final question here. And this question is I'm more so reading it so that the listener can just think about these ideas. I we are not gonna settle this issue tonight, but I love I love the topic of how to classify cards. So this is a great topic. This is a great entry into that subject matter. JD9 cards is this should grading companies label cards based on the actual release year or the intended set year that is printed on the card for vintage, this can materially impact how we define key cards. Take Jackie Robinson's Leaf rookie. It has been proven to be released in 1949, yet PSA labels the set as 1948 based on the copyright date. That creates a disconnect between when the card actually entered the market versus how it is cataloged. Modern cards follow a similar but more accepted convention. For example, 2021 Prism Football was released in mid-2022, but it is still labeled as 2021, aligning with the product's year rather than the year of release. Given that many sets, especially modern, are released well after the season they represent. What should be the guiding principle? Market availability or set identity? More importantly, when defining true rookies, should the priority be when the card was first available to collectors rather than the year printed on the card? Does anybody want to weigh in on this?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

This is a huge topic.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

I love this topic. Yeah, it's a big topic.

unknown 1:14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:02

I mean, there has to be some kind of standard because why wouldn't someone release a Jordan rookie right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

Exactly. That's that is the thought experiment that sort of explodes this question.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:16

Is what if somebody released a card that had a photograph of Michael Jordan from 1984? And so they could plausibly even put copyright date 1984 on the card because it's in reference to the photograph. So you could be sneaky. But maybe there's some litigation that could happen there for consumer deception or whatever. So maybe that's possible, maybe it's not. But you could release, you could, and you even call the set 1984 TOPS, 1984 TOPS basketball, but you release it in the year 2026 or 2027. But you make it look like that, all the packaging says that it's from 80485. What do you do then? Right. So, you know, that's why the copyright date thing is if the copyright date is accurate, if the copyright date is actually indicating when this particular card was conceived and or registered with the copyright office, the card, not the photo, not a component of it, but the card itself, the copyright date can be pretty instructive. Go ahead, Christina.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:14

I was gonna say, like it's it's been a while since I've taken a copyright class, but isn't it like that you don't actually need to put a copyright on your yeah, because you do not need to put a copyright notice and you don't need to register it either.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:26

As soon as you fix something in a tangible medium, the copyright attaches.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:29

Okay. So like even if they were to make it with a copyright like year of 1984, the copyright is actually 2026 if they did this yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

So but I don't know, they don't need to print copyright 2026 on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:47

No, no, no, that's what I mean. Like they could put 1984 and then claim, like, oh, it was about the photo. Um, like you could even say like the photographer and then copyright 1984 on the back, so that people like might then be like, oh, it's 1984. But um the actual copyright of the card would be 2026 because that's when it was fixed.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

Yeah. Okay, so what about this example? So the pandemic produced some really weird results, and one of them was actually some 2020 football products and maybe basketball too, came out not in the calendar year following, but actually two calendar years after. So, like 20, I believe flawless 2020 football or flawless 2020 basketball, one of those two.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:33

Cup hockey too.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

Yeah, okay, good examples. It but like that they came out like in like 2020 flawless football, I think came out in 2022. So now we're two years removed. That's what the the release date. But the release date isn't ever printed anywhere on the card surfaces. And so, like, once the card is in circulation, what does it matter when it was released? Uh, you know, I don't there's there's so many different ways to take this. Josh, what do you think about that? Like, when is Josh, when is it too long? Like, if the if the set is purporting to document 2020, can it come out in 2025? When's when is it too far?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:07

I think Panini was pushing it right up against it towards the end there with football specifically, where uh we were getting like Prism after the season ended and stuff, and it was kind of against the spirit of the trading card world, you know, like they were trying to space it out to maximize profit and stuff, which I get. But uh I would say like a year is definitely we had that issue with WNBA too, didn't we? Where like the Caitlin Clark rookies were coming out from this like one-off product release, and it was like way after, you know, like over a year after her rookie year.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

Sounds right.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:42

Yeah, that does sound right. Like it like it was almost like the end of the next rookie season. Like Kate, like Paige Becker's rookie season was like over, and they had a card proclaiming Caitlin Clark as a rookie.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:56

And they were doing the thing that you talked about earlier where it's like, hey, there's a National Treasures Caitlin Clark card, and it's like, wait a minute, they don't have at WMBA National Treasures, you just made this just for her, so this is like an 84-star reprint one-off deal that's like just a marketing thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:13

Yeah, um, I think that with COVID, like with the cup, I know the cup like came out super late uh in 20 for 2020. I want to say it came out right before Mint 1. So that was 2022. Um I think I got like whatever. Um, and I remember ripping cup and like chasing otter and Robertson. So with that, I just want to be like there were extenuating circumstances there, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

Yeah, I think consumer protection laws might be the answer here if it ever got egregious. Because there's a clear case of deception if uh a product is being released for the financial purpose of representing that there's certain rookies in the product and that season has long passed.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:12

Well, I also want to say, like, it depends when the cards were fixed, right? Like when they like were designed. Like if the design was done for 2020, the copyright year was 2020 because that's when it was sent to the printer, but something happened, like the entire world shut down and it couldn't get printed till late 2021. So then it released in early 2022. The copyright, like the card was fixed digitally in 2020.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:44

Yeah, I agree. I there were extenuating circumstances there for sure. All right. So uh we're gonna wrap up after those questions. I'm gonna give a quick shout out to Preston's cards question. I didn't want to answer it. I'm glad we don't have to answer it. But his question was, and this will be food for thought for everybody listening at home. If you could swap collections with one person in the hobby, who would it be? That was Preston's question. So, all right, guys. Let's I there's a fun question, Preston, and I'm glad I don't have to answer it. Let's pick a title.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:16

All right, okay, like bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

That's you, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:21

Did you say that one? That sounds like me.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:25

The hobby bicycle.

unknown 1:20:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:28

Big culture.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:29

I don't even think we need to read the Resties, but go on.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:32

Choice F. Are you sure you want to grade that Pikachu McDonald's card? Shitbeasts and crypto dick butts are part of our identity. This is a pick your own adventure hobby and hobby complainer.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

Damn, the shit beasts and crypto dickbuts is is definitely like a late like comeback, like a late surge there that made the game close at the buzzer. But I'm still going with the hobby bicycle. I mean, God, it's just it's short, it's sweet, it's direct. Same. Little bike emoji.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:11

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

Plus, I don't really want a picture of my face next to the word shit beast and crypto dick buttons.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:21

Which word would you rather have your face next to if you had to pick uh I'm I think it's shit beast by a mile.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:28

Yeah, the dick butt is tough. That's real tough.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

Right. What do you what a dick butt? That's do we need to pull up a picture of those things again to remind ourselves?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:38

I was looking at the picture of the shit beast, and uh that was enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:41

I don't know what either look like, and I'd like to keep it that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:45

I'm definitely not Googling it right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:49

All right, that's gonna do it for the lighting just changed because you did Google it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:56

And uh they still have value, so the floor price of the one we're talking about is 0.65 ETH. I have no idea what that means, but it means you're rich. I think that's good.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:13

All right, thank you everybody for tuning in. Shout out GC Cage. Saw Jeremy Lee popping a lot of great hobby personalities in this chat. Thank you guys for listening, and uh, we'll see you guys probably about three months.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:31

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