Building Your Personal Brand - Bite Sized BD 1 with Lara Quie and Ricky Nowak - Episode 30

Welcome to Episode 30, which is a brand new feature on business development and personal growth topics. Your host, Lara Quie, discusses building your personal brand with Ricky Nowak, professional speaker and executive coach specialising in leadership management and behaviour. 

Join their conversation to hear about leveraging LinkedIn and other technology to stand out as a lawyer in this crowded marketplace. 

Also:

·         If you liked this episode, please rate the show, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts to help the Legal Genie reach a wider audience.

·         Look out for the next episode coming soon.

 
You can connect with Ricky Nowak on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rickynowak/
or on her website: https://www.rickynowak.com/ 

You can also connect with Lara Quie:

·         On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie or 

·         Website: https://www.laraqassociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Legal Genie Episode 30 - Bite Sized BD 1

[00:00:00] Lara Quie: Hello and welcome to Episode 30 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. And this week, we've got a brand new feature called "bite size business development and personal growth". And I'm here with Ricky Nowak, professional speaker and executive coach specialising in leadership management and behaviour.

[00:00:47] And what we thought would be good for our listenership would be just to have a chat about some of the key topics that we get asked when we are coaching some of our clients. And this week [00:01:00] we thought we'd start with building your personal brand. So, Ricky, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:06] Ricky Nowak: Thanks Lara. Hello everybody.

[00:01:08] Lara Quie: So, when I say, "building your personal brand". What immediately springs to mind? 

[00:01:14] Ricky Nowak: To me, it brings to mind that we have to have a really good compliment of an intellectual appetite and an emotional appeal to ensure that when we are chatting to people, when they're looking at us, when they see our name pop up on their phone or an email from us, they understand immediately what we stand for. That's to me a personal brand that resonates and it means something.

[00:01:40] Lara Quie: When I think of a personal brand I, do think it's a lot to do with personal values and your reputation. So, what people say about you when you leave the room or perhaps three words that people think of when they're asked to describe you.

[00:01:56] I think that's often a sort of an interview question, isn't it? [00:02:00] They say, yeah. How would your friends describe you? And you'd have to think of three descriptive words. And, as a lawyer you would want something like somebody with great intellectual capability, but who's approachable who cares about their clients and things like that. Wouldn't you? 

[00:02:20] Ricky Nowak: Absolutely. And it's changed so much over the last couple of years, especially here in Australia, where there was very much a professional approach to brand before, and it was aligned to the brand of the business and the brand of the firm. And that's a model. So they, were always almost mirroring each other and hello COVID and all of a sudden people were not in the office anymore.

[00:02:44] They were working from home. So their brand looked different. So when we got on Zoom and we were no longer in a certain tie or a smart looking suit. People were more informal. So the brand became more informal. And what I noticed with clients is that they connected in a different type of conversation. It was less structured. It still got to the point, but they were more relaxed in a sense, and that was conducive to deeper conversations and also enabling people to be more curious and take the time to explore areas of work that were different. And I think brands changed.

[00:03:29] Lara Quie: Absolutely. It's about the fact that there's two levels, as you say, there's the firm's brand and your personal brand and the firm that you work for will have a certain reputation in the market. And it will have that corporate image, but people buy from people. 

[00:03:49] And what COVID brought about is that sense of everybody having a very personal individual approach to life. And that is the thing that people have honed in on. And when it comes to leadership, everybody has been so focused on vulnerability. So, the power of vulnerability as Brené Brown says. It is that idea. You want to be an approachable person and you want people to know your values and what you stand for.

[00:04:20] And that is actually becoming exceedingly powerful. 

[00:04:24] Ricky Nowak: Very much. And, I think we've changed a lot in the last couple of years. And vulnerability was something that most people experienced and are still experiencing at different times. But as business is thriving again for many people and opportunities are rebounding, we must never forget that we could only be a click away from being obsolete. If we don't continue to show humility and connection in the way that we did in the last couple of years, more so than ever before because people will still go through periods of anxiety. There will still be volatility in the markets. There's still going to be challenges, both old and new.

[00:05:08] And I think as lawyers, part of the equation in this brand building is being able to recognize that clients are gonna go through different periods of emotional stress or resilience. And we've gotta be really intuitive to understand at what level are our clients going through right now.

[00:05:30] And when we, as a brand can stand up and say, I understand my client in this time, because they're going through certain periods today that they didn't go through a year ago. They will recognize that our brand means we are in touch with them. And that's what we'll be remembered for. 

[00:05:51] Lara Quie: It is that. It is that level of connection and understanding and empathy. These have been keywords during COVID for sure. Yeah. And what's also been really noticeable during COVID is how people have leveraged technology. We've all been forced onto Zoom and virtual meetings. Just by dint of working from home. But I think that when it comes to personal branding, we now have such incredible tools at our fingertips that people didn't have before.

[00:06:23] If you think about the traditional lawyer in law firms of the past, it really was just your website and people would be on there with their bio and then you'd go out and about in person networking. But now there are so many amazing tools to build your personal brand, LinkedIn being the prime example. LinkedIn is ultimately your personal landing page. It is your opportunity to build on what you've already got in your professional biography on your website to say what really matters to you. So, presenting yourself as the kind of person you want to be.

[00:07:03] And so when you've got your LinkedIn profile up there, you've got your opportunity to show the real you and become a much more human person. I think that lawyers can be quite intimidating. And so, it's great for clients to be able to see what are your hobbies? What are your passions?

[00:07:23] Do you volunteer in your local animal rescue shelter? Do you give pro bono legal advice? What's your career journey look like? 

[00:07:32] Ricky Nowak: Very much so. You're making me reflect as you are talking, Lara, about a blog I wrote last year that said do you still look like your LinkedIn photo?

[00:07:43] Because if we go back a couple of years, the general image that we would portray was more formal, more, more contrived. And then over the couple of years, people's dress codes changed. Hairstyles changed. And it's interesting to see how many people have actually changed their photo to reflect their brand and the image of who they are.

[00:08:09] So gone are the ties and the suits which, were a standard uniform in many ways. And so, I love what you said about LinkedIn is our landing page, but before people read they, see you and they want to feel that's the sort of person who I feel.

[00:08:26] I could relate to that's the sort of person who looks like they care. That's the sort of person who I feel is a good listener. So that photograph that you put up there I think is really important now to be congruent with the brand that you are. And it's fine, if you are more formal and that's what you want.

[00:08:50] That's great. If you want something less formal then think about what that actually might look like to the people who are viewing it for the [00:09:00] very first time, because they are the ones who will pick up the phone or reach out on LinkedIn or read your posts. So there's a big congruence isn't there between the look and the feel and the words that we actually say? 

[00:09:14] Lara Quie: That's true. And I think the profile photo, as you say it's very eye catching. It is usually somebody's first impression of you because in modern times, everyone pretty much is guaranteed to Google your name or to look you up directly within LinkedIn to see who you are before they meet you in person. So your reputation and your ability to make that first impression is in the hands of what you've put up there on your profile. And I think that the LinkedIn platform itself gives you so many opportunities to present yourself.

[00:09:50] So, your "about" section, your profile photo, but then also what you post and also how you comment and how you interact with others. I think that actually, it's the comments that you make on other people's posts that truly reveal your personality. Because they give you the opportunity to either share advice or to show empathy or to really just show your personality. What was your take on something?

[00:10:23] Because you'll often see someone's comments over time, and you'll feel like you get to know that person. And so, when you meet them in real life, you've realized that the way that they think, and the way that you think is aligned, or if it's not aligned and you can really feel that, and you get an impression of someone over time.

[00:10:43] And I think that's the sum total of the photograph, the profile words that you've used, the posts you create and the comments that you make. And of course, it is social media, so you can upload video, really show you in action. You can upload all sorts of things that really give you that showcase. It's your virtual shop window. So, there's no better place, in my opinion, for a professional to really demonstrate who you are, your capabilities, what you are into and particularly all your personal stories. Everybody wants to engage with your stories.

[00:11:24] Ricky Nowak: Story. Yeah. You've hit on something really interesting and so important, Lara, in terms of posting stories and putting videos up and content up that's rich and real.

[00:11:36] And real, as in a true representation of you, your intelligence what's of interest to you, like the ones you post. You've talked about your hobbies, you've talked about the things that matter to you, but they're relatable. There is a conundrum though, and I think working within the legal profession, many of my clients are lawyers and partners and even graduates, there is a strong feeling that unless it's perfect, I won't put it up.

[00:12:03] Unless I look fabulous. Number one, unless I sound very experienced and brilliant. I'm not going to put it up there ‘cos I'll be judged and I don't wanna be judged. So, I'd rather not put my own posts up there because someone might critique it and it might work against me unless it's absolutely scholarly. And the other point is that because people don't generally in the legal profession, like criticism very much, they're not putting themselves out there in case they're going to be viewed by others in a critical way.

[00:12:38] Here's the thing, perfection can get in the way of progress. We all know that. And if we're gonna worry about what everybody says we may as well hide under a rock. So, I would say that in writing for LinkedIn or writing on someone else's blogs, being as real as you can. Ditch the academic speak.

[00:12:57] And right from the heart, as you'll be telling me a story, then you are removing yourself from the discipline of having it to be absolutely perfect from an academic perspective. That's not what LinkedIn is all about. You wanna write a paper? You wanna write something an academic way, go for it.

[00:13:16] Fantastic. Put it in journals, write for the association magazine, anything you like. But if you wanna post. Don't think it has to be so perfect because it sabotages you from actually writing it. And you'll just resist doing it time and time again. And that's what I love what you're doing, it's regular, you're inviting people to comment. You're commenting on others, and you go, you know what? That's easy. I can do that. And you do it without labouring over it for, you know, a week, and when you do that, you lose the momentum altogether. 

[00:13:51] Lara Quie: Ricky, it's such an important point that you make about that because a lot of it has to do with lawyer personality, as you say, the element of perfectionism, the fear of being judged, general fear many lawyers are risk averse.

[00:14:06] Many lawyers do feel very judged, very on a pedestal. And, on that pedestal, it feels like there's a long way to fall, but I think you have to weigh it up with the opportunity. The fact that most lawyers feel like that is your opportunity. 75%. Let's say, I'm gonna guess it's not an exact number, but I would imagine that in the legal profession, something like 75% of lawyers will be very hesitant to post anything or even comment for the fear of being judged. So doesn't that give you this fantastic opportunity to be the one out there? Marketing yourself, being seen. And I think that a lot of that has to do with letting go of your ego. Stop being so status driven.

[00:14:59] Stop being so self-conscious. Don't take yourself so seriously. Think about what is the worst that could happen? Oh, you might get a client. That would be bad, wouldn't it? That would be awful. Wow. I think that it does take time. It is a process. It's a journey. No one should launch themselves with their very first post with a massive video expose of themselves we are definitely not advocating that, what we are saying is - start with just commenting.

[00:15:33] Start liking someone's post. And then maybe a little comment here and there. And as you get more and more used to commenting and starting to express an opinion, you will then start to feel more comfortable to create your own post. And your own post again, can start with merely sharing someone else's post just to support them and say, "Hey guys, I found this interesting hope you will too."

[00:16:01] And then you might move on to. "Gosh, I learned this really interesting fact yesterday. Did you already know this?" And then you ask that question or you can find an inspirational quote. There's always amazing quotes, or you could even put an interesting photo. Don't be controversial, just think positively and with a spirit of generosity. What have you learned lately that somebody else might benefit from? And if you are approaching LinkedIn and any other social media platform with that spirit of giving and just saying. I noticed this. I wonder if this would be helpful. I found this funny and just expressing your personal opinion.

[00:16:50] And absolute golden rules folks, no way are you to talk about politics, religion, anything controversial. Just stick with general topics and, certainly professional topics. What is it like to be a lawyer? As a junior lawyer, what are the things you've noticed about your law firm and the opportunities there and what are you learning that you could tell other young people who are at university still thinking about the next step, because the truth is, all of us are one step in front of someone and several steps behind people in front of us. So we can always be helpful. We don't need to be experts on something we just need to know more than the other person 

[00:17:36] Ricky Nowak: That's a really important point. And in, addition to, or supporting your conversation there about that, I think it's important that we start from a, like you said, a small base, not trying to write a journal, not doing an academic paper.

[00:17:53] But if we do want to refer to something. You say in support of the comments above here is a [00:18:00] paper that I've been working on or using or referring to that will support this discussion. I'm interested to see if you've found anything else that could support this discussion and take it further. Inviting other people to actually contribute to the conversation and also with, LinkedIn the, opportunities are massive, but it's also important to go outside your legal networks and to join groups that are complimentary or completely different, in fact, because that will stimulate your ideas as well.

[00:18:36] So you don't have to stay within the legal groups. You look at associated groups and say, what would be of benefit and even join the groups that your clients actually belong to. Which is another way of actually expanding your network. So it could be a rotary group, for example it could be a finance group.

[00:18:59] It could be a [00:19:00] design group, whatever it is. And by doing that that's going to perhaps take you away from the fear of contributing in a legal way, but you are still learning and building confidence outside your field. And, I think that might also be something that can be fun and learn how to write for LinkedIn.

[00:19:20] Lara Quie: Yes, Ricky, that's, a really important point. I think that the more lawyers can get involved. Perhaps on an industry level, if they can find something that they find interesting and they can be genuinely passionate about and can join groups, associations, clubs, et cetera, that gives, them that insight, help them meet people.

[00:19:40] So for example, if you were focused on the shipping industry, you could actually really get into yacht. And boating and just general maritime, anything to do with boats and then you could just be hanging out out at yacht shows and things.

[00:19:56] But if you can talk about boats with a passion and be genuinely interested in that, although you might be focused on actual massive disputes or other things relating to the shipping industry. It just is related and it just shows that you actually have a more in depth and genuine interest.

[00:20:18] Ricky Nowak: Yeah. Just on that, one of my clients was a partner in a legal firm but his personality, he was an extrovert, he was very chatty. He loved people. I often said, "How do you, how do you manage to do you know, the long hours when you're spending so much time talking to people?" He said, "that's where I do my business." And he became the Rainmaker for his firm. And he, was able then to delegate parcels of work to other professionals, because he was bringing in clients and more clients and exactly to what we're talking about. He did the networking through LinkedIn and different groups.

[00:20:51] So he would see where different events were, where people were going to, and they were hanging out. And he knew the type of client that he wanted were going to be part of these groups were going to these events. So, he would hang out there and ask for specific introductions from people who he knew in the group, and he built an enormous funnel into the firm because he knew the power of connections. 

[00:21:18] So, yes, get known by writing, but get known by being present and turning up and showing that you're making a contribution and the funnel into business was huge.

[00:21:30] He doesn't do any legal work anymore, but what he's brought to the business is absolutely astronomical and he loves it. When I see his posts come up and he's schmoozing and talking and he knows every aspect of the business, so he can refer clients to different areas without a problem.

[00:21:48] Lara Quie: It's exactly that. I think we can get too focused on the technological side. We mustn't forget that people like to meet real people. And I know that obviously Australia has, opened up recently and certainly Singapore has very recently lifted restrictions here on numbers. So, the opportunity to get out there again and meet people in person is there. And we mustn't forget to do that. Although we've got so used to staying at home, but we can leverage the technology so we can leverage these other platforms such as LinkedIn to meet others and to get to know them. So that's really important, but I think I want to mention a few other ways that people can grow their personal brand. And that is definitely through audio and video. You could start your own YouTube channel. You could start your own podcast. You could be a guest on other people's podcasts. The great thing about podcast and video is that people hear your voice. They decide do you sound like someone they would like to meet?

[00:22:54] Do you sound like someone knowledgeable? Do you sound like you are very easy to reach out [00:23:00] to. Do you communicate clearly? Are you high and mighty and arrogant, or are you humble and, generous and have a sense of humor? All of these kind of things I think really come out so much more through audio, through video.

[00:23:17] So, you want to think about your clients consuming media in so many different ways and everybody has their favorite way. And so for some people, me in particular, I love audio. So if I can find someone on a podcast, I would be very likely to listen to them on my iPod going around for a walk.

[00:23:37] And if you are somebody who writes long articles, why don't you think about reading out your article and putting it on a podcast? Think about how you can repurpose all of the materials that you already have, because I think one thing that lawyers really always say to me is, "I don't have time to create all of this stuff."[00:24:00] "Oh, how many years have you been in practice? Like 10 years? Have you never written an article? Have you really never given somebody some advice? Oh yes, of course I have. Uhha well, in that case. Excuse me. But why don't you dig that article out?

[00:24:17] Check it to make sure it's still relevant and current, maybe update it here and there and then put a new photo on it. Then put it on a new platform. You could harness Medium, which is a fantastic platform for good writers. You could make sure it's on your firm website somewhere, you can then cut and paste it into LinkedIn and then stick it on there.

[00:24:41] You could cut little snippets of it and put it in posts on your LinkedIn. You could also start an Instagram and take nice photos around your neighborhood or your walk to work. And with each of those photos, write a small comment about " yesterday, I was advising on this [00:25:00] particular issue" and just mention the issue.

[00:25:02] You don't even need to go into detail about the advice you gave. You are just painting a picture of what your practice looks like. And then you use wording that shows you're passionate about that area. So, for example, you might be a corporate lawyer, but you might want to niche. Into fashion design, like you might want to be focused on F and B.

[00:25:27] I know people that really like that concept of being in motor vehicles. What is it, do you love cars? Do you love fashion? How can you link what you really enjoy in real life? To your work? And how do you attract more of that by showing how passionate you are about that by taking a deep dive and then, using your LinkedIn platform and your podcast, et cetera, people see that and go, my goodness, this person, they really know about this subject. I'd love to have them on this panel. And the thing is you don't even need to wait to be invited to be on a panel. You can just create your own panel. Exactly. So, you can put yourself as moderator instead, if you don't want to be a panellist. Or you can think about who would be complementary?

[00:26:18] Who'd be a fantastic person to talk about blockchain? Who'd be great to talk about business development and personal branding with me, Ricky? This is what I'm doing here. I thought, hey, this is something we should talk about. Let me just ask Ricky if she wants to be on the show and then we can just have a conversation.

[00:26:38] Ricky Nowak: What you're saying makes complete sense. I think when I've spoken to a lot of professionals about this - lawyers, accountants, for example, there is a fear that, or a feeling that it's confusing. Why should I do all of this anyway? What's it going to bring me in and how much time should I actually spend on it?

[00:26:54] I would say like with anything, if you can look at your diary and say for this month, I'm gonna dedicate one hour and look at your calendar and make say for example, six 10 minute slots. Just to dedicate some time to think about it, to plan it and to execute, say one or two things.

[00:27:15] And that's what you do over the period of the month. So, look at your, calendar. Find three 20 minutes slots or whatever you wanna do and say for that time, I'm just gonna dedicate planning and writing a blog and I'll do it within that timeframe. Or I'm going to sit in front of my computer and talk to it and talk about something that I've learned that would be really important, whatever it might be.

[00:27:39] I'm going to write three Instagram posts, send three Instagram photos and plan what you're going to do for the month or couple of months in advance. And you've got a bit of a guide. If we don't plan what we are going to do, it gets too hard and it gets a feeling like I'm overwhelmed.

[00:27:55] Where the hell am I gonna actually start with something? Find a buddy in the firm, someone who has a different way of looking at the world and to have a conversation just like Lara and I having now. And that could be your podcast and a conversation of two minds talking about a topic, two different perspectives.

[00:28:15] How would you handle this? How would I handle it? Put it in a plan. And if you measure it in say three months time, you might have eight bodies of work out there that you wouldn't have had. And because it's not overwhelming, you've got a picture of what it actually looks like and what you want to achieve. Start with a couple of things, maybe one in each of the platforms: one on LinkedIn or two on LinkedIn. Two or three on Twitter, two or three on Instagram. Only if you feel that's the right platform for you. You don't have to actually be on every platform. Be on the ones that you feel you're comfortable with. 

[00:28:50] That's how I felt when I started using social media too. I was a bit overwhelmed. Like I've gotta be on everything. And then I realized, no, I don't. LinkedIn really works for me. I stick with that and oh, of course I use the others occasionally here and there, but I know what works. So, that's where I dedicate my time. And that's where I see my results. 

[00:29:11] Lara Quie: That's absolutely right. It's so important to think about your personal comfort level. You need to focus on a platform that you enjoy being on and do not be overwhelmed. So although if you are a planner and you like to set things out and have a monthly schedule and all of that, there are a lot of people who love doing that, and it can be very effective.

[00:29:38] But if you are more of a spontaneous person like me, I just make sure that while I'm sitting at my breakfast table, I get out my phone and I post something. Because my thought is that we are playing the long game. So, in the initial stages, you just want to post something, comment on something, teach the [00:30:00] algorithm that you are consistent, that you're going to show up.

[00:30:04] However frequently you decide. So, if you are going to be on LinkedIn twice a week on a Tuesday and a Thursday. Show up on a Tuesday and a Thursday. Teach it what you are doing. It is a game. You are playing a game with the algorithm. And so, for me, I generally show up Monday to Thursday at 8:00 to 9:00 AM. So in the morning I get to my breakfast table and I look at the clock and I go, oh 8:00 AM . Ah what am I gonna think about today? You know and I do, I just shoot from the hip, but I get that not many people like to do that. It's just a question of finding what works for you.

[00:30:42] Great. Deciding what that is, focusing choose one thing that you can be good at, and you can get used to teaching the algorithm that you're gonna be there and, then start to grow your connections, reaching out so that your audience then grows organically. And then think about [00:31:00] the topics that you enjoy writing about.

[00:31:02] So never force yourself. I think it's so important that people make their personal branding and marketing enjoyable. Write about things you like. Tell people what's fun for you. This is a photo of something that I did yesterday. Look at this wonderful coffee I had today.

[00:31:21] I enjoy spending time in coffee shops, doing X, Y, Z. Tell people about your world, show people the real you. And they will then engage on a personal level. I want to just quote from one of my friends, who's a barrister and I literally copied and pasted some words that he wrote in a post yesterday, because I think they're so powerful.

[00:31:45] And I, I really understand that all lawyers love evidence. They are highly skeptical and they never believe anything unless another lawyer has told them. So Ravi Aswani, he is a barrister, I'm [00:32:00] just gonna read out his words because I think that this is so powerful and lawyers always ask me, oh, Lara, why should I bother being on LinkedIn?

[00:32:09] This is why. Ravi says in his post. " Some of my most cherished professional relationships have started here or evolved at least in part through this brilliant platform. Two of my arbitrations in 2021 were instructions from lawyers, clients who had not previously worked with me. And when our relationship had developed sufficiently for me to ask the question of why they came to me. In both cases it was because they'd been following me on LinkedIn and to quote them, they said, "We like your style, Ravi. And we think you are the sort of person we can trust with our case and would enjoy working with.” Now, how powerful is that? 

[00:32:54] Ricky Nowak: It doesn't get better than that. 

[00:32:56] Lara Quie: You can see why I copied that, right?

[00:32:58] Absolutely. Why I saved that one as my social proof that you can get work literally through LinkedIn, but you have to play the long game. None of this is overnight. And Ravi, actually was a guest on my podcast previously. And in it, he talks about the fact that it's the long game. Lots of people go, "Oh you, got this work through LinkedIn."

[00:33:21] Actually, yeah, I've been on LinkedIn quite a number of years. You said I have been posting every day. I have been working hard on this. So, I think if you go in with an attitude of, wow, this is something I enjoy. I'm here for me. I'm here to be authentic. I'm here to post what I enjoy posting about the good things will come to you in time.

[00:33:44] Don't force it. Don't be artificial. Don't treat it as a business transaction. It is not. It is just an opportunity to show who you are and when people see who you are and they know, like and trust you, they will give you their business. 

[00:33:59] Ricky Nowak: Exactly. Thank you so much. It's been a really lovely conversation to think about and it makes me reflect on how often I update my profile on LinkedIn as well and what my brand really says and how does it speak to people? That we can't be complacent, that the brand that we have up there still resonates in the way that we want. So I suppose in closing for me, it's about ensuring that we make sure our details are updated, that it's representative of what we are currently thinking and working on and not rest on complacency that it looks good. It's gotta feel. It's gotta feel right. 

[00:34:40] Lara Quie: Thank you so much, Ricky. It's been a great conversation and I look forward to further conversations for our bite size business development and personal growth snippets. So thank you again. 

[00:34:53] Ricky Nowak: Thank you. [00:35:00]