The Magic of Mentoring with Jerrick Lim of EVYD Technology - Episode 40

In Episode 40 of the Legal Genie Podcast, your host Lara Quie, sits down with Jerrick Lim, Senior Legal Counsel for EVYD Technology and a passionate advocate for mentorship.

Jerrick's legal career has spanned various industries, from global insurance brokerage to one of the world's top logistics companies, where he honed his skills in supporting startups. He now works in the health tech sector, where his team leverages groundbreaking AI technology to improve healthcare outcomes.

Jerrick reflects on his journey into the legal profession, highlighting the practical aspects of law that law school often doesn't cover. He shares insights from his time studying law at the University of Warwick and the transition to becoming a construction lawyer.

Jerrick also discusses his move into the corporate world, starting with Aon, and his experiences working with aviation and tech companies like FedEx and Atlas. Finally, he delves into his current role at EVYD Technology and their mission to improve healthcare delivery through technology.

The conversation shifts to the importance of mentorship in the legal profession. Jerrick stresses the value of mentors and how their guidance can shape one's career. He emphasizes the importance of open communication, sharing experiences, and creating a supportive environment where legal professionals can seek advice and guidance.

Jerrick invites both mentors and mentees to join the Singapore Corporate Counsel Association's mentorship program to foster the growth and development of the legal community.

In closing, Jerrick provides advice for young lawyers considering a transition from private practice to an in-house role. He encourages them to explore the right fit for their career and emphasizes that there's no one-size-fits-all path in the legal profession.

This episode sheds light on the multifaceted journey of a legal professional who is deeply committed to mentoring and the transformative power of sharing knowledge and experiences within the legal community.

If you would like to learn more about the SCCA's Mentorship Program, please go to: Mentorship | Singapore Corporate Counsel Association (scca.org.sg)

To connect with Jerrick Lim, you can find him on LinkedIn here: (6) Jerrick (林杰) Lim | LinkedIn

Or on his website: Jerrick Lim's Homepage

I hope you enjoy this episode.

Love from The Legal Genie x

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Episode 40 – The Magic of Mentoring with Jerrick Lim

[00:00:00] Lara Quie: 

[00:00:16] 73% of you listening to this podcast, do not subscribe. If you've ever enjoyed one of these episodes. Please, could you do me a big favour and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you can know and it helps me get more and better guests. Thank you now on with the show...

[00:00:36] Hello and welcome to Episode 40 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. And I'm here today with my friend, Jerrick Lim, who I first met back in April 2022. Jerrick is a father of two lovely boys and an avid traveller with a passion for aviation and cruises. He also happens to be the Senior Legal Counsel for EVYD Technology.

[00:01:04] Jerrick's legal career in house has spanned various industries, from his start in a global insurance broker to one of the world's top logistics companies. He's found his calling in supporting start-ups that are looking to go from 0 to 1 to 10. In his current role, Jerrick has been privileged to support creating new technologies that drive better health outcomes for folks in Southeast Asia and around the world.

[00:01:29] Jerrick takes a generally genial outlook on life and is really looking forward to driving the mentorship initiative that has recently been set up by the Singapore Corporate Counsel Association, also known as the SCCA. So welcome to the show, Jerrick. 

[00:01:45] Jerrick Lim: Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be on. 

[00:01:47] Lara Quie: My show is all about mentoring and the career journey. So let's start right at the beginning . What first brought you into the legal profession and the study of law? 

[00:02:00] Jerrick Lim: It's funny when you put it that way, because I very much fell into the legal profession in the way that I think some folks of my age do.

[00:02:10] When I was thinking about what I wanted to study in university. I didn't really have an idea. And in retrospect, I probably would have actually chosen a different path as opposed to taking an undergrad in law. I may have very well ended up back in the law, but I may have just gone for a different course, but anyway.

[00:02:29] So it was in the kind of situation where I thought, well, why not just go for this? It seems like a course that. I would do well in and here I am, almost 20 years later. 

[00:02:39] Lara Quie: And so you went to the UK. I know that you went to the University of Warwick, which was definitely one of my favourites when I went to visit all the open days and they had a very modern approach to law.

[00:02:51] Tell me about your studies there and what you learned as a Singaporean living abroad.

[00:02:56] Jerrick Lim: Warwick was a really unique experience. I think Warwick is a university that prides itself in its modernity. There is no denying that the university is very modern compared to I think some of the more traditional universities.

[00:03:11] But I thought what was really great about the Warwick experience was the teaching there was really focused on driving a practical lawyer .Creating lawyers who would not only be good at the black letter law but also be able to be a practical lawyer, a lawyer who can give solutions to our clients. 

[00:03:34] Obviously, you have to have the black letter law, but you do need to also be a lawyer who can give practical advice who ultimately delivers solutions and outcomes for your clients or your, in my situation, for my stakeholders in a way that is very usable. And that's something that I take into my job to this day.

[00:03:55] And to answer your second question, as a Singaporean in Warwick, I think Warwick is famously known as "the bubble". It is very much in the middle of field outside of Coventry. So I think what you really do take away from Shakespeare's hometown, almost, it's just one town over from Shakespeare's place of birth is the majesty and the beauty of the Midlands.

[00:04:20] It truly is a unique place in the United Kingdom. It's a place that I try to go back to whenever I can. And I do love rambling through the woods and seeing the winding roads and the little paths and the streams and stuff like that. I do miss that a little bit sometimes, especially having come back to Singapore where it is a bit more built up.

[00:04:39] Lara Quie: What would you say was the difference between your legal education when you arrived back in Singapore compared to your law degree?

[00:04:47] Jerrick Lim: I think law school teaches you academic rendering of the law, which I think is very different from the practice of law. I think it provides you a foundation. It gives you the knowledge and the skills required to succeed at becoming a lawyer.

[00:05:07] But to say that law school will prepare you for a career in law, I think is at the extreme, maybe overstating the case, but that certainly I think requires a lot of hands on experience. And I think it is instructive that historically lawyers were actually apprentices, right? We apprenticed on our way to becoming a full fledged lawyer.

[00:05:29] And so it was fairly obvious, I think, in the past that you do need to have this hands on experience of how do you deal with clients? How do you address their issues? How do you take even proper meeting notes? These are skills that cannot be taught in a traditional sense. And I think to this day, I am learning and relearning things about the practice of law.

[00:05:51] So, All of this, is to say that there is definitely room for modern legal education to, to be more practical. But having said that, I'm also very aware that it's impossible to as I said, teach someone how to handle a crying client or provide succour to somebody who is having a difficult time at work.

[00:06:12] Like some of these things are really just experiences that you have to go through yourself before you're able to be a good practical lawyer. 

[00:06:20] Lara Quie: I think it's very good point to say that there is a big element of the apprenticeship and that's what obviously the training contract and the pupillage period is for but there is also that feeling that there are various skills presentation skills, client relationship skills, soft skills that are very useful for lawyers, which could actually be taught more widely at law school.

[00:06:46] I'm just thinking about the transition that you made from law school into becoming a trainee. What was that transition like and what did you feel was particularly useful at that stage of your journey? 

[00:07:00] Jerrick Lim: So I think for full context I actually trained as a construction lawyer. A famously cutthroat industry in Singapore because of the way that our legislative framework works, and I think it gave me a certainly a lifelong compulsion to be very efficient. I think the skills that you really gain as a trainee are As you rightly pointed out, the soft skills, right? Things like prioritization taking good notes making sure you are aware of the context before you execute on something, these are things that if you are It's just starting out.

[00:07:38] I think it's quite impossible for anyone to teach you. Certainly impossible for anyone to tell you how to do better, right? And it's definitely not something that I think is instinctive to some people. So for me, I think the real thing that I gained from being a trainee was As you said, the soft skills and trying to be a better lawyer in that way, yeah. 

[00:08:01] Lara Quie: So you mentioned that you went straight in to being a construction lawyer. Why was that? 

[00:08:07] Jerrick Lim: I wish I could tell you, but I don't actually know how I got put in this position of being a construction lawyer. I did mention an interest in arbitration. I did my dissertation for my Masters in arbitration.

[00:08:18] And I think at the time, perhaps there was a lot more arbitration matters in the construction practice, but to this day, I couldn't tell you why that was. But it was, in a way, a trial by fire and I hope that I escaped relatively unscathed. 

[00:08:32] Lara Quie: So you moved on from a local Singapore firm, one of the big four, into a very global firm, DLA Piper.

[00:08:41] So tell me about that move and what you learnt there as an associate. 

[00:08:46] Jerrick Lim: I think the expectations that come with being in a global firm are very different. The soft skills aspect of it is again, something that is very highly prized. But at the same time, obviously, there is no I guess the word for it would be, there would be no escaping from the fact that you need to be extremely solid at your drafting, at your legal skills, your analysis of the issues.

[00:09:11] And I think going to a global firm gave me was really a different perspective on the practice of law and how to refine the way I dealt with clients or in I guess now in house stakeholders, because it's one thing to just generate 30 pages of text about some obscure point of law, but I think it's a far more practical to be able to tell a ,client" please don't do this, this situation will take place".

[00:09:40] So I think. Having the ability to deliver a work product that is fit for purpose and fit for use, um, was something that was very highly prized, I think at D. L. A. Piper. 

[00:09:51] Lara Quie: Tell me about what happened in your career after that. 

[00:09:55] Jerrick Lim: It's quite straightforward, really, because most people, I think today where I think a lot of junior lawyers are leaving quite early to go in house.

[00:10:03] I jumped on that bandwagon, I think a little bit earlier than some of my compatriots, but the opportunity came up at Aon, which I thought was quite exciting. suitable for me. It was a corporate role. It was a relatively junior role. And I made the transition to Aon, which I think was in retrospect, I think was the right move for me at the time.

[00:10:21] The matters I was dealing with at Aon were, was suitable for my experience, but at the same time, it gave me a much more broader exposure to which I think to this day, I still look back on that time and take lessons from it. So, it was just a matter of right place at the right time.

[00:10:38] I think that I decided to make this transition to Aon. And I firmly believe that in this day and age, it's really not possible to put a guideline to somebody to say, Oh, once you hit senior associate, or once you hit eight years, or once you hit three years or whatever, then you should think about moving in house.

[00:10:54] I think the question to be asked is actually, is there the right role for you? Are you the right fit for a role? And not use mantra or received wisdom to make these sort of decisions. 

[00:11:06] Lara Quie: That's a very good point. I think that as you say, every team, every company is very different.

[00:11:11] Every lawyer is different. I would say for young people considering in house think about your level of independence. How much are you asking for assistance from others, from your peers, from your seniors? Do you feel quite competent in certain areas, obviously relating to more general corporate roles.

[00:11:32] But also every team, it has different layers. And so if you are quite junior, you can join a much larger team that has different layers. And I would definitely recommend not leaping into a sole counsel role if you're only two or three years qualified, but thinking about a larger team.

[00:11:50] And there are those, especially here in Singapore. Yeah, where there are lots of global HQs, and so some of the legal teams can have 20 to 30 people in them. 

[00:12:00] Jerrick Lim: Exactly. And I think it's a very good point you made about horses for courses. I think having the right role is far more important than having a fancy name or a fancy title.

[00:12:14] I think the substance of what you will be doing inside your role in the firm is actually a lot more important for the growth of your career and the trajectory that your career will follow. Because ultimately it is very possible to join the best team on earth, but actually find that you are not well utilized or that you are not maximizing your potential because the work isn't available to you.

[00:12:39] So, having that consciousness and undergoing a rigorous interview process, which is mutual, by the way, it should never be the case that you just go into a job and say, Oh, it's a good company. I'll go. Having that discussion and making very clear, this is what I want. Can you offer it? I think that's very important.

[00:12:57] I also think that when you're moving in house, what's important is what kind of business is it? Do you have a genuine interest in their business? So, I know that in your case, you're very interested in travel and technology. Tell me a bit about your move into FedEx because you went there.

[00:13:16] So, so I did mention upfront that I was very into aviation still am to this day. I thought honestly, when the job ad came up, I was like, what better than to join the world's largest cargo airline. It's to this day, I think the world's largest cargo airline. And it was an amazing experience, at least for a person who's into planes.

[00:13:34] But the role itself, I think, spoke to me in many ways. It was a generalist role. The scope of the work that I was doing was extremely broad, but within a team that had specializations as well. So that was really good also, for me to like, learn a little bit here and there about the various aspects of work that people are up to.

[00:13:52] And. And it was really at FedEx that I could stretch my legs as a tech lawyer because I was assigned to take on tech contracts quite early on in my time there. So I did a lot of work negotiating fairly large and fairly sophisticated contracts for like cloud solutions and stuff that is very au currant today.

[00:14:14] But certainly I think the contracts that need to be in place for you to get to a point where you can actually do all these fancy things have to be signed way before. So, so that was where I got a taste of the tech contracting and tech commercial tech space. Yeah. 

[00:14:30] Lara Quie: And tell me about the role that you took after that at Atlas.

[00:14:34] Jerrick Lim: So for me joining a startup was always something that I think I, I was interested in, and I was thinking that at the time it would make sense to take on a role in an organization that was looking to grow quite rapidly in the travel space, certainly after the pandemic was over. So the timing I think worked out pretty well.

[00:14:54] And yeah, so that was something that I thought was interesting for me and that's why I made the transition over to Atlas. 

[00:15:00] Lara Quie: And so now we are here at EVYD. So tell me about EVYD. You are now Senior Legal Counsel there. it's groundbreaking technology. What sort of technology and how does it help people with their health?

[00:15:13] Jerrick Lim: So, EVYD is actually a health tech startup in the AI space. Our focus is on delivering solutions to our clients that improve the health of their users. So it's a B to C model that we are following. The work we do is very much in working on I wouldn't say intractable problems, but certainly problems that have faced, I think, every healthcare delivery system for some amount of time. The type of work that we do It's not particularly sexy, I don't think, but it can make a very strong impact in the lives of our users.

[00:15:51] Something, the best example we can give is we are supporting the delivery of what is known as the Blue Health app, which is Brunei's equivalent, to something like a healthcare delivery app that Singapore has and other countries and other health systems certainly do have. And It allows users the ability to manage their healthcare delivery online.

[00:16:14] So things like queue management like taking a queue number and stuff like that online reviewing their medical records tracking their health progress. All these are part of the solution that we provide as part of BlueHealth. And the hope is that with a solution like this, it can go global.

[00:16:31] Lara Quie: When it comes to in house lawyers, the most important thing is understanding the business. So when you joined each of these different businesses, because they're all quite different. Yeah. What steps did you take to get to understand the actual business? 

[00:16:47] Jerrick Lim: It's a great point, and I think for me personally, I think what really helps is to have a curious mind be open to discussion, be open to have a sit down, a coffee, a chat with folks from across the business young and old, because I think the thing with every business you join, there are these nuances that no one can tell you about.

[00:17:13] You can only learn as you go along. And I in particular, I think all of this is really culminated in my current role where it's a startup, but it's global. it's very local. Healthcare is about as local as you can get, but it's again global because we are trying to deliver our solution to as many people as possible.

[00:17:31] It's dynamic. It's, but it's also very uh, how do you say? I wouldn't say static, but certainly, again, health is a long term thing. It's never going to be a short term thing. so there's the challenges I think for, that come with dealing with a company like the one that I'm in certainly, presents many challenges on many fronts.

[00:17:51] So having the open line of communication to all of my colleagues has been something that I worked very hard on since day one. Because. You never want there to be a situation. And I think this applies across any business, to be fair, you never want a situation where people feel that they cannot come to legal if they have some issue, or if they have some concern, or if they have some trouble, because it's definitely better to fix something once it arises, than to wait and let it fester because and we've seen so many examples of, compliance failures and regulatory issues arising even to this day in Singapore, we are even seeing like, cases coming up with this kind of problems.

[00:18:29] And the funny thing is that there are lawyers in the room, but perhaps they were just not made aware or it can be more difficult, I think, to fix the problem than if you can nip it in the bud. 

[00:18:41] Lara Quie: It's very good of you to point out the importance of communication of building relationships with all the main stakeholders.

[00:18:49] And you mentioned old and young that is true, right? Within a business, different people wearing different hats, having different pressures, different priorities, and also different concepts of what an in house legal team does. And it's quite important, I think, when you join a team for them to get to know you as a person and what sort of lawyer you are.

[00:19:13] And therefore, being approachable, being someone who is going to sit down with them, walk them through things, make them feel able to tell you things because a big part of compliance is about. As you say, spotting things really early, making sure nothing escalates. But a lot of that is to do with, well, how comfortable do people feel actually raising issues?

[00:19:39] And as some businesses don't handle that well, things get brushed under the carpet. People don't feel able to sound the alarm. And a big role one of the big parts that legal plays is that feeling that, No problem is too big. Whatever it is, we will handle it, but we do need to know what it is to put the fire out in the first place.

[00:20:00] So compliance obviously in the medical space is huge. How do you keep yourself current with all of the regulations, et cetera, that you must be handling in this line of business that you're in? 

[00:20:13] Jerrick Lim: The answer, quite simply, is I can't. I think it's not possible for one person to handle all of this. We do have a team of colleagues who are more focused on compliance on regulatory matters.

[00:20:25] There are colleagues who are former doctors who also support me in that. But the truth of the matter is, I think, especially in an organization of, my company's scale. This is something that I think we've said from very much from day one that everyone needs to be aware that we are not in the business of letting data get leaked. It's a one and done kind of situation.

[00:20:47] If something does happen to breach the trust, it would be, I think very difficult to recover that. So, yeah. I think there is a very strong organizational focus on improving our data governance and taking care when we're dealing with sensitive data. But having said that, obviously it's an ongoing process.

[00:21:06] It's something that we are always looking to improve. And hopefully, that will be the case that long may that remain. 

[00:21:11] Lara Quie: So let's move on to this fantastic mentorship program that you're involved in. Tell me about how it all started your role within it. 

[00:21:20] Jerrick Lim: So, I have to put my hands up and say that very much like from a previous comment about, about regulatory matters and compliance it was a team effort.

[00:21:28] I, certainly wasn't the one who started the mentorship initiative with SCCA. It's something that SCCA has had, but I think it's lain fallow for some time. And what has happened is there has been a bubbling up of interest. People have been speaking to us about having a reestablishment of this program.

[00:21:45] I certainly have been pushing that for that as well. But to my mind, I think it's always been something that any organization should have in place, whether it be a professional one, like SCCA or even companies themselves, there should always be the availability of formal or not more senior people who can give guidance and advice to more junior people who are outside of their reporting line, because I think, a lot of times, the difficulty with the way that business is structured is that it tends to be hierarchical, right? So, the person who you report to may not also be the same person that would make sense for you to go and ask for advice for, because it might just not be something that you would be willing to do or want to do.

[00:22:25] So having someone on the outside who is completely objective, who can tell you the truth may actually be quite helpful. And it's something that I certainly have benefited from. And the whole reason I am on this podcast is to really get people to to join up and join us as mentors and mentees.

[00:22:42] Certainly we need both of those to really be the folks who can improve everyone. Because I also believe very firmly that mentorship is a two-way street. Mentors, obviously, they have the benefit of experience and wisdom but they can also potentially gain from having the mentorship experience by absorbing new perspectives, new ways of seeing things.

[00:23:04] And so, Yeah, to my mind, I think that's something that I would strongly encourage for people who are also more senior in the profession to come join us because you never know what you will learn from some of these more junior folks, but it's all relative because our criteria is quite broad in that 

[00:23:22] Lara Quie: sense.

[00:23:23] So, tell me about how people can sign up and what is the deadline? We 

[00:23:28] Jerrick Lim: are keeping it fairly loose we do have some time lines in mind, but we also are bearing in mind that we are coming up to the end of the year, and there may be other motivations of people during this time. But, the signups are open now on the SCCA's website, so that's scca.org.sg/ mentorship.

[00:23:49] There you can sign up to be a mentor/ mentee. We are hoping to do assignments for the respective mentors and mentees sometime at the end of the year, with the intention to kick off the entire mentorship program proper in the first quarter of 2024 preferably by January. Again, all things depending on the turnout.

[00:24:09] Lara Quie: And you mentioned that you've greatly benefitted from mentorship yourself. So tell me about how you found these mentors. 

[00:24:18] Oh, 

[00:24:18] Jerrick Lim: wow. To be honest with you, I've had experiences where it was just random. There were some mentors that I've met who effectively just happened to be the right place at the right time.

[00:24:29] But I would say that the whole reason also of us having this program be started is because it can be difficult. It's one of the hardest questions to ask somebody is. I think I need help. And I think having something that's a bit more structured a little bit more tailored potentially can be helpful because we can then go out and say, Oh, we have this mentee who is looking for X, Y, and Z.

[00:24:54] I think you're a good fit. Would you be interested? As opposed to randomly trying to reach out to people on LinkedIn because it can work. It's definitely worked for me before. But it's definitely not also an ideal solution. 

[00:25:06] Lara Quie: I know what you mean.

[00:25:07] I think where a program is designed for you to have the opportunity to discuss difficult issues and seek advice as part of the program, you don't feel that you're in a situation where you're suddenly running around looking for help. It's more part of the expectation. And I totally agree that mentors can turn up in all sorts of different shapes and sizes. They don't necessarily have to be other lawyers. They can be people in other professions, people who are clients of businesses and firms, et cetera, just having different life and professional experiences to share with you.

[00:25:50] And I also think that what is so nice is that feeling of mutual learning because you mentioned, it's a two way street. And I really think that what mentors can gain particularly is that feeling that you don't realize what you know, until you actually start to talk about it and share.

[00:26:11] And so, you can actually be quite a junior person, but still have knowledge that somebody a few steps behind you don't have, and that you can then share. So there's no limit as to who can be a mentor and what stage you have to be at, et cetera. And I think a lot of perhaps, mid level in house counsel, for example, might not feel that they're ready to be a mentor, but the truth is they are because what they will be sharing is all the things they learned along the way, which somebody just a few steps behind us hasn't reached yet.

[00:26:47] And I think that the closer you are to where someone is actually, the more you have to share of that immediate experience, you remember it so much more. And you feel what they feel. And so I think having a good variety of mentors and several people is actually really helpful to gain different perspectives, to have a male mentor and a female mentor and people in different industries, et cetera.

[00:27:16] So another thing is thinking about you and your friends. If you have someone who's a particularly great mentor that you've come across and you've benefited from their experience it is very generous to your friends to introduce them as well, because that mentor doesn't need to just have one person.

[00:27:33] Most of those generous people actually would be quite happy to have conversations with several people. So, I do think that we should share the love, spread the love and make sure that good mentors are shared, that mentees make sure that they fulfill their side of the bargain, which is being respectful to show up when you say you're going to meet be respectful of the mentor's time. Come prepared, think about, okay, I, I've got this one hour with this person, what are my questions? What are the things I want to learn about? So a bit of prep is good. And 

[00:28:09] Jerrick Lim: that last point is so important because obviously this is something that is being done free, right?

[00:28:15] The mentor is not going to be taking any money off you. So if you don't come with the mindset that I'm here to give as much as I get, I think actually you're beggaring yourself for it because it doesn't make sense. It will also not make sense for the mentor long term to want to work with you because they will be like, Oh, this guy clearly doesn't want the benefit of my experience or my guidance.

[00:28:38] So it's so important, I think, for you to come in with some questions prepared, some thoughts maybe even some specific queries about how a mentor has approached a certain type of issue in the past, or if there's an analogy that you can draw. All these things can be presented to your mentor as evidence of you having done the work, because this isn't tuition.

[00:29:00] No one's here to spoon feed you the answers because to be also fair, the mentor may not have the answer that fits exactly your situation, right? They could perhaps have come across a similar but not identical situation. The whole point of mentorship is not to have all the answers, but to work together to come to a better answer.

[00:29:23] And I think that's the right mindset to take to having a mentorship experience or mentorship and menteeship experience. 

[00:29:30] Lara Quie: Yes. And so just before we round off the podcast This is very much focused on younger lawyers, the idea of learning from experiences from more experienced practitioners.

[00:29:43] So as an in house counsel, what words of advice do you have for a young, let's say, private practice lawyer thinking about getting a new role in house?

[00:29:55] Jerrick Lim: I think back on myself, I think as a junior lawyer And I think the simple answer is there's nothing stopping you from going in house. There isn't. I think what you need to think about the most is it's advice I've given earlier in this podcast already is this the right role for you?

[00:30:14] Is this the right team for you? Is this the right fit for you? Which to be fair, are really questions you should ask of any role, whether in practice or in house. I think the difficulty of Singapore sometimes is that as someone who's in law school, the notion of going from law school to in house is not, there is no clear path to that.

[00:30:36] There is really none. You are told there is one path only, one true path. And that could be very much your path in life. I've seen so many colleagues and friends who have done that journey, but the statistics are damning. The number of associates who become partners are few and far between that, that, that is a fact that I'm not saying anything controversial.

[00:30:59] So if you go in with this knowledge that perhaps you'll be there for a finite amount of time, what you need to be telling yourself is, okay, if this is what is expected from me, or if this is my path, what is the alternative? Where are my exit routes? Where are my exit strategies? Right?

[00:31:15] Because no one can guarantee you partnership in this day and age. It's never, it was never the case, but certainly today, I think it's gotten even harder. So as a junior lawyer, the question to ask yourself is, Where do you go from here? And you can see that as daunting, but I actually think it's very exciting.

[00:31:33] I think where do I go from here is probably the best question to ask yourself every couple of years. Because, who knows, right? You might find yourself in an oil field in the middle of Uzbekistan. Sorry, I have a globe right in front of me, so that's what I'm looking at. Or something else. Like, you never know.

[00:31:50] So, never close the door on anything. It's my advice. 

[00:31:53] Lara Quie: Great. And so where can people reach out if they want to connect with you? 

[00:31:58] Jerrick Lim: I'm probably most easily accessible on LinkedIn. You could probably find me just by searching my name. It's Jerrick Lim. I do have a website. I have a personal website. It's jerricklim.Com. That's not as active, but it is where my landing page is. So feel free to also look for me there. 

[00:32:13] Lara Quie: Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today, Jerrick. Great to see you. 

[00:32:18] Thank you, Lara. 

[00:32:19]