Being Fit to Practice with Angela Han - Episode 20

The Legal Genie Podcast Episode 20 with Angela Han

This week on the Legal Genie Podcast, your host, Lara Quie, is in conversation with Angela Han.

Angela is a healthcare lawyer, life, and health coach. She is the corporate counsel for Health Pro Heritage, and also runs her own coaching business called Angela Han Health LLC, a qualified personal trainer and yoga teacher, she coaches lawyers on their physical and mental health, and she also coaches lawyers on their professional health, through her business program for those who want to create more impact beyond their day job. She is also host of the “Fit to Practice” podcast, where she interviews lawyers on their health journey as legal professionals.

In this episode Angela shares her background growing up in South Korea, her journey into law, becoming a personal trainer, and becoming a life coach. 

She talks about being an in-house counsel and how good relationships are everything. 

She also shares how she nearly gave up her podcast after six months but now she continues to record episodes every week because she knows her listeners are waiting for the next one. 

Angela talks about mom guilt and how her daughter is the answer to everything. 

I hope that you enjoy the episode. 

You can connect with Angela on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/itsangelahan/

You can find out more about Angela here: https://www.angela-han.com/

You can connect with Lara Quie for executive coaching as follows:

• On LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/laraquie/
• Through her website: https://www.laraqassociates.com/
• You can also listen to Lara’s other podcast, The Coach Potatoes on Apple Podcasts here: 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/coach-potatoes-podcast/id1529949563/

If you have a question or guest idea, please send an e-mail to Lara@LaraQAssociates.com

Lara Q Associates
A boutique business and executive coaching consultancy

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

 The Legal Genie Episode 20 with Angela Han

[00:00:00] Lara Quie: Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. As a former corporate lawyer and APAC Head of Business Development for an international law firm, my mission with this podcast is to provide you with insights into the careers and lives of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:00:52] Mentors are hard to come by so, by listening to these conversations, I hope that you will gain some valuable insights that will [00:01:00] help you move forward in your career and personal life. I ask my guests to share their advice and experience with you. As an executive coach, I work one-on-one with lawyers to grow their practice and self-confidence. I also run mastermind groups and business development accelerators designed to bring like-minded people together, to learn, grow, and support each other. 

[00:01:22] If you'd like to learn more, please connect with me on LinkedIn or through my website. The details are in the show notes. Please rate and review the Legal Genie Podcast to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. So, let's move on to this week's episode. I hope that you enjoy the conversation. 

[00:01:45] Hello, and welcome to Episode 20 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today. I'm excited to have on the [00:02:00] show, Angela Han. Angela lives in Baltimore, in the United States and is a healthcare lawyer, life and health coach and working mother. Angela is the corporate counsel for Health Pro Heritage, and also runs her own coaching business called Angela Han Health LLC, a qualified personal trainer and yoga teacher, she coaches lawyers on their physical and mental health, and she also coaches lawyers on their professional health, through her business program for those who want to create more impact beyond their day job. She's also host of the Fit to Practice podcast, where she interviews lawyers on their health journey as legal professionals. Welcome to the show, Angela.

[00:02:41] Angela Han: Thank you so, much for having me. 

[00:02:44] Lara Quie: It's fun for you to be on the other side of the microphone for a change. Isn't it? 

[00:02:48] Angela Han: Yes. Yes, it is. 

[00:02:49] Lara Quie: So, tell me about your background and where you grew up. 

[00:02:53] Angela Han: I grew up in Seoul, South Korea, and I was born in Los Angeles. I was shipped to Seoul when I was like two, three months old. [00:03:00] And then I came back to the states for college. 

[00:03:03] Lara Quie: What was that like growing up in South Korea? 

[00:03:08] Angela Han: It was interesting. I actually never had a official Korean education because I went to an international school, for kindergarten, like for pre-K I had maybe a few months of Korean education, but after that I went to an international school.

[00:03:22] I was very privileged to, to go there because of my citizenship. Which was the basic requirement for going to an international school in Korea. And so, I was educated with English books and English American curriculum. And that's pretty much it, I don't know. I feel like it's hard to distill 18 years.

[00:03:45] Lara Quie: And so, are you fluent in Korean? 

[00:03:47] Angela Han: I am fluent. As much as you can be without a Korean education, just living in Korea. 

[00:03:54] Lara Quie: I am very appreciative of the Korean cuisine and here in Singapore, [00:04:00] a lot of people love to eat really nice Korean food. So, it's very, very popular here. but tell me about your university education. So, you said you went back to the states for college. So, tell me, what did you study? 

[00:04:13] Angela Han: So, I first wanted to be a teacher. So, I went to Boston University School of Education because I wanted to rebel against the sort of stereotypical expectations of a well-educated Korean student. And so, the expectation, I mean, my parents were very flexible, my family was very flexible, but the general Kind of idea that I got that I perceived, I don't know if it was to anybody's responsibility was that I was expected to be a doctor or lawyer or engineer or something like that. That has stability and prestige. And I didn't like that. I didn't like that I was being thrown into a box.

[00:04:51] And so, I wanted to do something that was in my mind at the time, impactful to a larger number of people directly. And so, I wanted to be a teacher and I [00:05:00] went to ed school and then. I realized, I kinda got caught up in the whole reputation thing in Korea where you're supposed to go to the Ivy league, or you're supposed to go to the top, whatever school in order to be treated differently.

[00:05:14] And so, at the time I was swept under that kind of expectation. And so, I transferred over to a school that was quote unquote, higher ranked in US news rankings. I went to Northwestern School of Education and Policy. And so, there, I learned a little bit more about the big picture, not just in the classroom, but also what goes on like policy-wise and I decided I still wanted to teach at least for a few years.

[00:05:38] And so, then I got into teaching through teach for America, which is a program here in the U S. I think there is something like that, like in other countries by the same person. But yeah, I did that for two years before going to law. 

[00:05:50] Lara Quie: And so, although you said you were trying to rebel, you did end up going to law school to become a lawyer. 

[00:05:57] Angela Han: Just my poor young brain that [00:06:00] likes to follow the rules subconsciously cause we like as parents, for example, a lot of us, we try to do the opposite of all the things that we didn't like, what our parents did, but we ended up actually doing the same thing.

[00:06:11] So it's like that. I, I wanted to rebel, I wanted to do something different. But I think. I think I was on the right track, but I just kinda needed a little bit more on learning to actually go on the track. That was right for me. 

[00:06:26] Lara Quie: And so, where was it that you did your legal training?

[00:06:30] Angela Han: At Georgetown university law center. 

[00:06:33] Lara Quie: And then later within a law firm? Where did you go and how was that? 

[00:06:38] Angela Han: Oh, so I think maybe the training system is a little bit different in Singapore and the US, I have no idea, but what I did was I went to law school for three years. And then after that you take the bar and then you just get a job.

[00:06:50] And then like you're a lawyer from that time. And so, what I did was actually, I actually didn't get a full-time job. I didn't get a permanent full-time job right [00:07:00] out of law school. I was. I was, I didn't graduate with good grades. And so, I had a lot of struggles finding like the perfect job or a permanent job. And so, I was at a government agency for about eight months or so until I went over to being a corporate counsel in my current position. 

[00:07:18] Lara Quie: I see. So, in terms of private practice, not much time in private practice at all, then straight in house. 

[00:07:26] Angela Han: Yeah, exactly. Zero firm experience.

[00:07:29] Lara Quie: Okay, that's pretty interesting. I'm a solicitor from the UK. And in order to qualify, we do go to law school, but then we have to do two years of training. Training contract, they used to call it which you would do for two years. And most firms would offer you four different seats.

[00:07:48] So six months in lots of different departments, so that you would have an experience of litigation and corporate and different areas. And then you would choose a specialization and you would [00:08:00] qualify into that. So even in-house attorneys in England will have some private practice experience.

[00:08:07] And generally in the UK, people don't tend to go in-house before, at least four or five years in private practice. So that's why I was a little bit surprised because certainly in the UK, it's relatively rare to go straight in house. But people do people do. But I'd say the the more trodden path is certainly to have a few years in private practice. So, tell me about your in-house role and what's involved in the day-to-day. 

[00:08:34] Angela Han: Yeah. So, it's actually very similar in the States in terms of like people are like, how in the world did you get into in-house without firm experience? And so, I think, I mean, it's a combination of things.

[00:08:47] I think that number one, I did get lucky and number two I just asked like, why not? And I actually, I think you're the first person to I was wondering about how it happens in the UK and you're the first person to actually [00:09:00] explain, like start to finish very clearly. So thank you for helping me understand that it is very helpful.

[00:09:06] But yeah. You're right. I think that there is a huge advantage to being at a firm before going to corporate counsel or in-house position because in-house, you have to really understand all aspects of the business. So understanding litigation and deals and regulatory stuff, and all of that together is really going to be helpful.

[00:09:27] I think for me what I do in house is the training that I get here is I think unparalleled because my boss really is hands-on but also flexible in like the most perfect way. And so, all of the challenges that I face, he teaches me how to handle them. He walks me through it and he gives me feedback in the most respectful way.

[00:09:52] And so, it's I didn't think that legal training would be this easy, but he makes it so easy, and it makes me feel like I [00:10:00] actually am growing. Without feeling like it's so hard to do, which is like the status quo in the legal industry where, oh, you have to suffer. You have to work enormous hours.

[00:10:10] You have to go through pain everything in order to be a good lawyer. I think what really matters in terms of training and growing as a lawyer is leadership. And so for me, it's like the same thing. I go through all of it because in business there is all of it. And then you get exposure to that on a daily basis without really rotating through each of those things.

[00:10:32] Lara Quie: It sounds like you're really blessed to have a fantastic coach and mentor then as your senior. 

[00:10:38] Angela Han: Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:10:40] Lara Quie: Wow. So, is it just the team of two of you or is it a larger team? 

[00:10:44] Angela Han: Yeah, it's just me and the general council. 

[00:10:47] Lara Quie: So that's great experience. They do say that when you go in-house, it really is all about the business and actually people who are in private practice often have to learn how [00:11:00] to make the letter of the law fit within business and you have to become very solution orientated and to really think about what is the end goal here? What is the business trying to achieve and how can I make that happen? And so, in terms of learning about the business, what have been the most difficult things that you've had to learn along this journey? 

[00:11:23] Angela Han: I don't know if there is anything that is difficult, because I feel like anything can be solved through relationships as in-house counsel. So, I guess if you don't have good relationships and that makes it difficult. But yes, anytime I have something that I want to know about any time I don't understand something, even if I feel like it's the dumbest question, because I feel like I should know this because it's a healthcare company.

[00:11:48] I've never been a healthcare professional, but I'm surrounded by healthcare professionals. So, they have this whole alphabet soup and they have this whole understanding as clinicians, as healthcare professionals. And sometimes I just have to ask very basic [00:12:00] questions. And if you have a good relationship with those professionals with the professionals that you're serving, then.

[00:12:08] There's two ways to go. If you ask a dumb question and you don't have a good relationship, then they're going to be like, okay, why are you asking me this question? But if you do have a good relationship with them, it's there's no reason for them to be upset about the dumb question that I have.

[00:12:22] And so, I think that whatever it is that you're stuck on as in-house counsel, I think that all of them can be solved through good relationships. 

[00:12:30] Lara Quie: Absolutely. It is all about those relationships and the communication that you have between you. And it sounds like you've got a really good relationship there, which is really, really valuable, and so helpful in an in-house role because quite often what happens.

[00:12:45] Especially here in Singapore, where sometimes you'll have a branch office of an international business. Quite a lot of counsel are on their own. And so, obviously you need to be quite independent quite self-confident at [00:13:00] that stage because you haven't got other people to rely on other lawyers who can tell you things and help you. So that can be, I think, pretty stressful. And I tend to recommend to younger lawyers moving from private practice to an in-house position to try and get into a larger team, at least one other person above you who's there for guidance and who can help you with the more challenging aspects. So that's pretty interesting about your experience. though, and do you know whether your experience is relatively common in the States? 

[00:13:33] Angela Han: Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that it is actually very, very rare. And I talk a lot about how blessed I am to be in this position because a lot of us are perfectionists and we think that we have to produce perfect work accurately at all times. On time yesterday. And so, that's like the expectation of every lawyer. And I thought that that [00:14:00] was also what I was getting myself into. And like you said, it was making me stressful. It feels stressful. And I think you are right. That if you are in smaller teams, especially when there are multiple no, especially when there's just two people like me and the general counsel.

[00:14:17] Like we, we can be pulled apart by so many different demands of the day-to-day. And so of course, yes, there were times when I really needed guidance and my boss was preoccupied with something else. And so, for me, like at first, yes, it was very stressful. But knowing my relationship with my boss and knowing my relationship with my colleagues, I felt safe to make a mistake, which is almost unheard of in the legal industry. It's what do you mean make a mistake? You can't make mistakes in the legal industry. Like you like that just doesn't register to a lot of people, but at, but at the same time, because we are advisors [00:15:00] and there are other people who know the business more, it's usually like a kind of a brain trust.

[00:15:05] Like you work together in order to find the solution. And so sometimes. We just work together. I'm not the only person who is thinking through these issues. I talk back and forth with my colleagues and think about the best solution together. And even if my solution is not the best solution, we're still, it's still a collaborative effort.

[00:15:25] And I think that's what is really making the difference in risk-taking and making mistakes and growing as a lawyer and providing value to the company. 

[00:15:35] Lara Quie: Absolutely. That does sound extremely rare. As you say, having the freedom to just try and just do your best and not worry about the perfect answer. And I think that holds back a lot of lawyers in terms of they have their own very, very high standards, which are often not shared by the other people around them the third parties asking them for the work. And [00:16:00] so they'll often take far more time and put in far more effort and stress themselves out because everything actually is internal.

[00:16:08] So let's move on though, to the fact that you also are a coach. So how did it come about that even though you're a full-time corporate counsel, you are also a coach for lawyers?

[00:16:21] Angela Han: Yeah. So, when I was struggling to find a job right out of law school, I was like I gotta do something about this. I couldn't have spent three years in law school feeling like a total failure and not being able to find a permanent job.

[00:16:37] And I asked why, so, I must have some other skills, some other passion in there somewhere, and I was just Googling on YouTube questions okay, how do I find my passion? Because everybody else seems to have it except for me. And one of the videos was saying, you find your passion, your biggest pain. And so, one of the biggest pains that I went through was the culture shock [00:17:00] and the bulimia that I went through for about seven years. When I first came to the States, and I overcame that through exercise and really paying attention to my health. And I thought I overcame this challenge.

[00:17:12] Why don't I see if anybody else also is going through something similar and maybe I can help them. And so, my first thought was, okay, let me get certified as a personal trainer. And so, I actually failed the first time, the personal trainer certification exam, because I took it right before the bar. I failed it by one question.

[00:17:31] And then after the bar, around the time, like I was waiting for the bar, I finally passed it. And then I just walked into a gym saying, hey, I just got certified can I just work here? And they're like, what is going on? And then I just badgered them for weeks until they finally hired me.

[00:17:47] And I just had the best time. Getting outside of the office hours and interacting with people who have nothing to do with the law. But also interestingly, a lot of my clients, there were [00:18:00] lawyers and I was like, you know what? I really do enjoy working with lawyers. And a lot of people are asking beyond the exercise aspect about I guess, diet and lifestyle and all of those things.

[00:18:12] So I just expanded my knowledge and just my horizons. And I also have to move away from the gym. And so, I had to put up my own shingle. And so, I dabbled in a bunch of different things. I had absolutely no idea what to do with my business. What business even is. I have no idea what entrepreneurship is all about.

[00:18:32] And so, I just happened upon starting a podcast. I happened upon a posting on LinkedIn and for about a year or so. I had no traction, no one cared about what I had to say. I remember the first time that I advertised the group coaching program for taking care of our health. Absolutely nobody responded. And I was really about to throw in the towel right before I gave birth. The beginning of the pandemic night, March, [00:19:00] 2020. I was like, why don't, I just have a bunch of things prepared, just so I can last through the maternity leave. And then if I'm like, still not doing well, then let's just, I don't know, change course or whatever.

[00:19:12] But I think in the beginning of a pandemic, everybody got online and we were searching for something a little bit deeper and that's when my business really started taking off and I started having a little bit more of a steady flow of income through my coaching business. And then I transitioned to being a life coach because people started asking me more big picture questions beyond their health.

[00:19:35] Lara Quie: So how do you balance your in-house counsel role with your coaching business? What does your week look like? 

[00:19:43] Angela Han: Yeah. So it's like before I used to call it a side hustle, now I call it a side to side hustle, because it's nine to five it's dedicated to my in house work and then before and after it's dedicated to coaching, but the thing is like with [00:20:00] coaching, I don't have to work eight hours for coaching.

[00:20:03] I actually work less and generate more revenue. Now that I have systems in place. And so, I think that is the value of my coaching business, because I have a clear understanding of what value I am offering and where I meet my clients and how I can meet them. That I really don't spend too much time marketing, or I don't know, doing anything.

[00:20:27] I don't know crazy in order to generate revenue. And so, I really spend, I don't know, just a handful of hours, maybe five to six hours a week for my coaching business. And it's still has generated more revenue than even my current salary for many of the months. And I also get help. I have a team of people. I have a podcast editor who handles my podcast. I have a project manager who handles pretty much everything that I don't have to do. And so, that really gives me a lot of time to [00:21:00] focus on serving the clients that I serve and spending time with my family. Whenever I want to.

[00:21:07] Lara Quie: Right. So you mentioned that you only gave birth in 2020, so I know that you have baby Raia. And so, tell me about becoming a mother? How did that change your life? 

[00:21:21] Angela Han: Oh my gosh. Where do I even start? You, you know this, cause you told me that you also are a mother. It's like, when I first gave birth. I was like all I have to do is love my child. If I'm happy, my child's going to be happy. Mom, guilt . What's mom guilt? That does not apply to me. And I just have to just live a happy life and my kids will be happy because that was the advice that really resonated with me at the time.

[00:21:48] And then what I realized was that I was feeling mom guilt without even realizing it, because what I was constantly thinking was just as a matter of fact, that I'm not a good mother. As a matter of [00:22:00] fact, I didn't even think that that was mom guilt. I was just like, oh, oh yeah. Like I, because I'm not spending enough time with my child because I'm not doing her morning routine and her dad is doing it instead.

[00:22:14] Cause I'm not a hundred percent sacrificing and dedicating every single cell and soul, and second of my life and body I'm not a competent parent and I was really struggling with that. And so I I have a coach, I have a therapist and I have a whole support network where I really try to be open about all of the BS that goes through my mind, all the garbage and the trash that goes through my mind. And like my therapist finally made me realize that's mom guilt, that's mom guilt. And it's not a matter of fact. And so, just realizing that, that I'm not immune to mom guilt, that I am. Like sometimes, people say, oh, just as long as you do your best.

[00:22:58] Sometimes I'm not doing my best. [00:23:00] And sometimes I am doing my best. And sometimes they're like, oh, it's just human to, to make mistakes. But I don't, I feel like I haven't even met that standard sometimes. But what I always come back to though is that she is the answer to everything in my life.

[00:23:19] That whatever issue that I'm going through, whether it's my career or my business or my marriage or whatever it is, like I look at her and the answer always comes to me. And so then I know that spending time with her being present with her is the most important thing in my life, because that's where I get all the answers for everything.

[00:23:41] And so that, that's why it's imperative for me to understand and learn how to love my child in a way that works for both of us and in a way that makes me love myself more in a way that makes me love my job and my [00:24:00] work and my clients and everybody more. And so, I always go back to okay. If I'm like feeling a little bit off right now, what is the answer that I need?

[00:24:10] And then I just shut down everything, spend time with her, and then I become centered again. And so, it's more instead of before feeling like, oh, I have to spend time with her now. It's if I don't spend time with her presently then I'm lost. And so, it's still a learning process. But one thing I have learned for sure is that she is the answer to everything in life. 

[00:24:37] Lara Quie: That's a wonderful story and it's a great thing that you've managed to discover that she's the answer to everything. Certainly as a mother, myself of three daughters two teens. I'm definitely in the middle of things.

[00:24:50] I definitely understand about mom guilt and not feeling like you're able to achieve all the things that you would like for them. And they [00:25:00] have very different ideas about things and it's very hard to be a parent at any time in history, but I think particularly now, because of the pandemic and how this has affected young people, young people's opportunities, their ability certainly to socialize.

[00:25:17] And I do worry about the after effects, this is going to be something that we don't understand right now in terms of the long term repercussions for young people, but certainly when I look at people going away to university and how lots of their courses are online, they're not able to have those really fun sweaty bop, disco nights that we used to have.

[00:25:41] And all of that kind of really good teenage fun that one is supposed to enjoy at university and at the moment that's being curtailed and it's a real shame. So I hope that young people will be able to enjoy themselves at college as much as we did. So, thinking about your coaching practice [00:26:00] and what are the kind of challenges that lawyers are bringing to you when it comes to their professional life?

[00:26:07] Angela Han: I think the number one thing is burnout. And I think the problem is that that compounds the issue of burnout is that a lot of us have our own ideas of what burnout is and what it's supposed to mean and what we're supposed to do about it. And so, I feel like there are different types of burnout.

[00:26:29] Like I think there's four at least. And there's the, I don't want to get too much into it, but I think that there's procrastination, that's also burnout because you just feel so unmotivated. And there's also like overworking all the time. That's also burnout. And so, we think that, oh, we need to qualify.

[00:26:48] Like we need to do, a certain thing, or be a certain thing in order to be burnt out. If they just feel exhausted emotionally or physically or mentally or whatever, then that's [00:27:00] burnout. And number two being burnt out doesn't mean that you are any less of a lawyer. It doesn't mean that you are a failure.

[00:27:10] It really doesn't. It doesn't mean that like you're not able to handle difficult things. All it means is information about what you're supposed to do from now on. All it means that right now, something is not working. And so that's kind of where I come in and I try to unpack everything and help them understand, okay, where's this all coming from?

[00:27:31] And how can we actually create a plan that works for them? Not what everybody else says, like waking up at 5:00 AM doing yoga and meditation and journaling. If that doesn't work for me, because I personally don't wake up at the time, like sometimes I do. But that's because I want to, that's not because I, oh, I feel like obligated to do all these, like to check off all these things in order to fight burnout, but that's really just not how it works.

[00:27:55] So it's about finding that plan that works for them, that is customized [00:28:00] to them. And at the center of that all is knowing that they are worthy of the help that they're asking for. Because they think that, oh, because I worked so hard through law school, I worked so hard to get here. This is supposed to be my dream life like that something is wrong with them or that they have to figure this out on their own in order to fight the issues that they're going through.

[00:28:25] And so, it's like helping them unlearn all of those beliefs that we were told that, oh, you're supposed to do this on your own. Oh, you're supposed to stay in the job if it looks good on paper. And all of those things. And so, that's the primary thing that a lot of us are going through. And the second thing that I helped them with is in order to, combat that kind of burnout, where we feel like we're not necessarily delivering our maximum potential on a maximum value, simply through practicing law, I help them also open a business so that they are able to deliver value with their law degree. [00:29:00] Without not necessarily having to practice law, like they can do that in so many different ways and I help them build a business that way as well. 

[00:29:08] Lara Quie: I think you're right about the burnout issue. We're certainly seeing that here in Singapore as well, and certainly globally. It's been a very punishing 18 months of uncertainty.

[00:29:20] Lawyers love certainty. They're very risk averse. So they love the idea that there's an end in sight and things like our annual holiday. Here in Singapore and certainly in the UK where I'm from, we would take an obligatory two weeks off in either July or August, where we would look forward to that all year.

[00:29:40] And knowing that we could, if we just push ourselves through this last bit, we'd have that two weeks off. And when we can recharge and unwind and. The thing is though that nobody's had this because here in Singapore, in particular most of us have not left the country for the last two years because of lots of restrictions, [00:30:00] et cetera. And, I think that that has meant that most people haven't taken a proper two-week break. Lots of people have gone on staycation. They might have taken a long weekend, had a change of scene by going to a hotel or something and enjoying themselves. But that is not the same as literally switching off, giving yourself permission to disconnect, handover to somebody else in your office and say, "I'm on vacation for two weeks. Do not contact me unless it's super, super urgent" and people haven't been doing that. And very much like your mobile phone battery, that energy has been depleted and people have just been pushing through and because their whole life where they're basically living at work right as well, because now they're working from home.

[00:30:49] It's meant that they really have not been able to disconnect and have not recharged at all. And yet you say something like, well if your brain were like a mobile [00:31:00] phone, wouldn't you stop and recharge your brain, your battery don't, you understand that you are not bionic woman or bionic man.

[00:31:09] You are an actual human being. Who has a limit to the amount of energy and especially brainpower? If you think of the amount of calories your brain actually burns when you're thinking deep thoughts, law is all about attention to detail, deep thought, big picture, all sorts of things you have to think about and so,, people are working really long hours. Very, very stressed, lots of pressure coming in from the business side, lots of uncertainty in the business, lots of shareholders demanding good returns. Never before have there been so many stresses on lawyers and in these circumstances. So for me, I see burnout from one extreme to another.

[00:31:51] So as you said, It can literally be though that someone's body packs up, like literally one day their body [00:32:00] says, "that's it, you are not going to work. In fact, you're not actually getting out of bed", and I've spoken to some lawyers where their body would not allow them to function, and they were bedridden for months and they became fatigued. It can be that extreme. And I think. Quite a lot of lawyers think, oh, it has to be like that to be burnout. And as you said, not a lot of them were identifying that all these other factors, like the procrastination you mentioned and general fatigue or overworking.

[00:32:33] Basically symptoms of burnout, people who are not happy in their job and who don't know where to go, they're basically stuck and they're just not functioning and they're definitely not meeting their full potential. It's interesting stuff and certainly in my coaching practice as well. I'm definitely seeing more and more lawyers who are stuck, who are thinking about what their life looks like. What is this life? As you [00:33:00] say, high achievers, this is supposed to be so prestigious. You have to work so hard to get there, to get the grades, to go to law school, get a job, blah, blah.

[00:33:10] But at the same time, it's like you get there and you go. Oh, is this it? I feel a bit like a slave I'm like here till 3:00 AM what is this, why did I do this to become a white-collar slave? And so, I think the expectations and the reality are quite different and that makes it very difficult for people, especially because as such high performers, they are not ready to fail and they're not ready to admit that actually, this wasn't the right choice for them. 

[00:33:44] Angela Han: Yes, exactly. And it's unfortunate that it takes a while for them to get to that realization. But at the same time, I feel like it is perfect timing because now they know for sure what works and what doesn't work.

[00:33:57] Lara Quie: That's right. It's almost like there's been a [00:34:00] pandemic pause for people to reevaluate, right. To look at their situation and say, wow, look, I can work from home now. What does my life look like? I could move out of the city to a nicer bigger house with a garden, better for the kids. I could, because it's flexible.

[00:34:20] I could actually do more things that you talked about. Some lawyers starting another business on the side, so there's definitely a lot more opportunity. And I think that the access to technology and the way we've actually learnt to all use it at the same time. So certainly for me zoom has brought about a huge change in my life, which I love.

[00:34:42] And so, the connectivity people feel the flexibility. It's almost like the whole world has actually opened up in a way that was there before. We did have Skype and Teams, but somehow the global psyche was not there. It's almost like this [00:35:00] revolution has happened and we're suddenly all in this whole new world together.

[00:35:05] Anyway, I'm so impressed by your podcast and you're on episode 120 or something like that now, like so many episodes. It's amazing. How have you had the discipline to keep releasing an episode a week? 

[00:35:20] Angela Han: Getting help hands down. I actually gave up, like I was saying earlier I almost gave up for my podcast almost six months into it.

[00:35:28] So I started my podcast May / June of 2019 because I was not doing well in my business and I wanted to get more publicity. And so, I started all for the wrong reasons, but at the same time, the reason it worked for me, even though I started it for the wrong reasons was there was someone who could help me.

[00:35:49] Not just with the technical stuff, but also hold that belief for me that this was worth it. And that is my podcast editor and Mark McDonald. Because at first I hired him for [00:36:00] publicity generally. I wasn't even thinking about a podcast.. And he said, maybe consider starting a podcast instead of I don't know, newspapers or magazines or whatever, because this is something, this is an avenue where you can really just express yourself and your thoughts and get more people to talk to.

[00:36:18] And so at first I was like, no way I have one client and just got certified. I am a new lawyer. I don't know if this is going to really work for me. No, one's going to listen to me. I have nothing to say. And he kept bugging me over and over again until I finally said yes. Six months into the project. I still wasn't getting any traction as I was saying earlier. And so, like I was saying, I was like, okay, I'm gonna just record a bunch of episodes before I go on leave and then I'll see what happens. And then people just started listening to it way more than before. And in terms of the discipline, because I now know that people [00:37:00] are expecting an episode every single week. I have a greater purpose because more people are listening to it.

[00:37:07] And I ha I can't disappoint them. And so, all I have to do is show up and do the interview. And then he goes ahead and edits, all of them, pushes them out, all of those things and all I have to do is distribute to my network. And so, I really don't make as complicated. I know some people they like to have a release or they try to have whole I dunno, pre podcasts, like process and everything.

[00:37:33] I don't do that. It's really just like any other zoom meeting. We have a conversation. And that's it. And so, I try to make it as easy as possible for me. And some people are like, oh, that doesn't work for me. I need a list of questions beforehand, et cetera, et cetera. And I need to make sure that this is all super formal, but I just say, okay, that then this podcast is not for you.

[00:37:55] I'm sorry. And I just then start having the [00:38:00] right people on my podcast. And I think. I'm very grateful that I've come to a point where I don't have to look for people anymore. People know about my podcasts already. And so, I just have to show up and they have to show up and it's about finding the right people at the right time.

[00:38:18] Lara Quie: I love that. I love the way that you have harnessed being able to outsource and delegate to whole team of people. And that means though, that you are committed to investing. Right. So you have invested in this help and you have reaped the benefits of that investment. But so many lawyers are afraid of investing in themselves.

[00:38:43] And in coaching, you mentioned you have a coach, you have a therapist, you have a podcast editor. Do you have any other people, but you're there to invest in and get the support that you need. And today I had a chemistry session with a young lawyer [00:39:00] and the investment was a really big issue.

[00:39:03] They, weren't sure about whether they should invest in themselves and their future and their whole career and everything. So it was quite interesting. What is it you say to lawyers when they're hesitating about taking on coaching or investing in something like their own podcast? 

[00:39:19] Angela Han: I think there are a lot of investments that they can make. I mean, it can be coaching, it can be a lot of things. I think the number one thing that I try to do is coach them as hard as I can with the questions that I believe are important. And while I do that, I try to love them as much as I can.

[00:39:39] And it sounds kind of like, what do you mean love them? And I think that it's about trusting the person, the lawyer or the potential client, like whoever it is to know in the bottom of their heart, what really truly is going to serve them. And even though I believe that whatever their [00:40:00] investment that they're trying to make is the best, in fact, the best investment ever at the end of the day.

[00:40:07] If their heart is not in it, it's just not going to work. And so, the biggest thing for me, it's not about what's the magical thing to say. It's about not making it about me and making sure that I am not in a rush. And because before a lot of the times what really didn't work for me was me putting myself on this arbitrary timeline. Oh, I have to hit this goal by then. I have to blah, blah, blah. Oh my gosh. Why is this person not signing up? And just I just made it all about me and meet my goals, but when I shifted over to, okay, what does it really look like to serve and love the client? Because this is about them, then it just happens all naturally and it happens faster.

[00:40:55] Because I think there is the monetary investment, but there's also [00:41:00] the energetic investment. And so, anybody can invest money, but if they feel like, oh, this is the person, this is the project that I truly want to spend my energy on. Then the money will happen. Is this about trusting? Okay.

[00:41:14] What's the energy that I want to put out there. What's the energy that they want to put out there? And where's the energetic match? If it's not a match, then it's not a match. What did I learn from that? And I think it's just pretty much that having conversations and treating people like human beings, 

[00:41:30] Lara Quie: Absolutely. And I think that's why the use of the chemistry session is so important from both parties really because the coachee has to feel it. And you as coach, as you say, you have to feel that love for your clients and send me as an ex-Montessori nursery school teacher. I always follow the clients whatever is best for the client for them in their life and in their profession. So Angela, it's been fantastic to have you here. Where can people connect with you? [00:42:00] 

[00:42:00] Angela Han: On LinkedIn message me on LinkedIn at any time. And I'm happy to talk to you. 

[00:42:08] Lara Quie: Thank you for being on the legal genie podcast, Angela Han. 

[00:42:12] Angela Han: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

[00:42:14] Lara Quie: Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode of the legal genie podcast, please go to Apple podcasts and give it a rating and review to help others. Find it. Please do subscribe so that you don't miss the next exciting episode of the legal genie podcast. Thanks for listening. Have a magical week ahead.