Finding Your Authentic Voice with Niti Nadarajah - Episode 22

The Legal Genie Podcast Episode 22 with Niti Nadarajah

[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. 

[00:00:33] Following my career as a corporate lawyer at Dentons and DLA Piper, I reinvented myself as an entrepreneur and then as Asia Pacific Head of Business Development at Duane Morris. 

[00:00:45] After a life event introduced me to the world of executive coaching, I set up my own consultancy, where I coach lawyers, leaders, and founders on how to design their best life. 

[00:00:57] I coach on building one's book of [00:01:00] business, personal branding, LinkedIn skills, growing self-confidence and how to get to the next level. 

[00:01:07] If you are looking for someone with whom to share your challenges and who can help you move forward, if you are stuck, then reach out to me through my website at www.laraqassociates.com. 

[00:01:19] This podcast is intended to give you an insight into the lives and careers of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:01:26] I ask my guests to share their best advice with you that I hope you will find helpful in your legal journey. 

[00:01:33] Please rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. 

[00:01:40] I hope that you will enjoy the conversation. 

[00:01:44] Lara Quie: Hello, and welcome to Episode 22 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today I'm delighted to be in conversation with Niti Nadarajah. 

Niti is the Head of Legal for Australia and the Pacific [00:02:00] Islands at Phillip Morris International, a leading tobacco company. She's also a working mother and advocate for a range of issues at work, including mental health, flexible working, gender equality and inclusive leadership. 

[00:02:14] She has a quote on her LinkedIn page that says, " How we live is what makes us real". She's a strong believer in leadership that demonstrates authenticity, empathy, courage, kindness, and vulnerability. It's great to have you on the show today, Niti. 

[00:02:31] Niti Nadarajah: It's lovely to be here with you, Lara.

[00:02:33] Lara Quie: It would be great to start at the beginning. So, if you could tell me a little bit about your family background and where you grew up. 

[00:02:39] Niti Nadarajah: Absolutely. So, I actually, for the first six years of my life moved around quite a lot. I was born in Scotland, which I love to tell people because it really surprises them because they're like, what, Scotland?

[00:02:53] Like. Yeah. So, my dad was studying in Scotland at the time. So, they happened to be there. So, we spent two [00:03:00] years there. So, not very long. And then we moved from there to England. We spent a bit of time in England, a bit of time in Abu Dhabi. A year in India, where my sister was born. And then my dad actually decided that, so, my parents are from India and had immigrated from India, I think in the seventies, sixties or seventies.

[00:03:19] And my dad had decided that he wasn't a hundred percent at home in the UK. There was just something about it that didn't quite feel comfortable. And so, he wanted to see what Australia was like, and so, we rented out our hou

Transcript

The Legal Genie Podcast Episode 22 with Niti Nadarajah

[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining me, Lara Quie, for the Legal Genie Podcast. 

[00:00:33] Following my career as a corporate lawyer at Dentons and DLA Piper, I reinvented myself as an entrepreneur and then as Asia Pacific Head of Business Development at Duane Morris. 

[00:00:45] After a life event introduced me to the world of executive coaching, I set up my own consultancy, where I coach lawyers, leaders, and founders on how to design their best life. 

[00:00:57] I coach on building one's book of [00:01:00] business, personal branding, LinkedIn skills, growing self-confidence and how to get to the next level. 

[00:01:07] If you are looking for someone with whom to share your challenges and who can help you move forward, if you are stuck, then reach out to me through my website at www.laraqassociates.com. 

[00:01:19] This podcast is intended to give you an insight into the lives and careers of movers and shakers in the legal industry. 

[00:01:26] I ask my guests to share their best advice with you that I hope you will find helpful in your legal journey. 

[00:01:33] Please rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts to help us reach more people who may find it helpful. 

[00:01:40] I hope that you will enjoy the conversation. 

[00:01:44] Lara Quie: Hello, and welcome to Episode 22 of the Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today I'm delighted to be in conversation with Niti Nadarajah. 

Niti is the Head of Legal for Australia and the Pacific [00:02:00] Islands at Phillip Morris International, a leading tobacco company. She's also a working mother and advocate for a range of issues at work, including mental health, flexible working, gender equality and inclusive leadership. 

[00:02:14] She has a quote on her LinkedIn page that says, " How we live is what makes us real". She's a strong believer in leadership that demonstrates authenticity, empathy, courage, kindness, and vulnerability. It's great to have you on the show today, Niti. 

[00:02:31] Niti Nadarajah: It's lovely to be here with you, Lara.

[00:02:33] Lara Quie: It would be great to start at the beginning. So, if you could tell me a little bit about your family background and where you grew up. 

[00:02:39] Niti Nadarajah: Absolutely. So, I actually, for the first six years of my life moved around quite a lot. I was born in Scotland, which I love to tell people because it really surprises them because they're like, what, Scotland?

[00:02:53] Like. Yeah. So, my dad was studying in Scotland at the time. So, they happened to be there. So, we spent two [00:03:00] years there. So, not very long. And then we moved from there to England. We spent a bit of time in England, a bit of time in Abu Dhabi. A year in India, where my sister was born. And then my dad actually decided that, so, my parents are from India and had immigrated from India, I think in the seventies, sixties or seventies.

[00:03:19] And my dad had decided that he wasn't a hundred percent at home in the UK. There was just something about it that didn't quite feel comfortable. And so, he wanted to see what Australia was like, and so, we rented out our house and everything else moved across here and spent a year here.

[00:03:37] They loved it. And so, we went back to the UK to sort out everything out, and then we moved back. And so, by the time I moved permanently to Australia, I was eight. So, it was a lot of moving around before the age of eight, which was challenging. In many ways I found as a child.

[00:03:52] Lara Quie: So, you're officially British, then? 

[00:03:56] Niti Nadarajah: I have dual citizenship, so, I'm officially British and Australian. [00:04:00] So, there you go. And I'm a non-resident Indian as well, cause I have a special thing that allows me to go to India too. So, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. It's good. 

[00:04:10] Lara Quie: Very international background and interesting that you ended up in Australia where you are now. So, tell me about your path into law and the fact that you did law and French, because Australians are not known for their language capabilities and certainly France is a long way from Australia. So, tell me about that. 

[00:04:31] Niti Nadarajah: It is, that's, very true. So, I actually, during school, I loved economics and I really enjoyed languages. So, I did both French and Mandarin at school and all the way through to my year, 11 year, 12 days. And so, I did that and I had decided actually during year 12 that I wanted to do.

[00:04:54] Commerce and arts at university, because I wanted to continue with my economics [00:05:00] and I wanted to do languages as well. And I really thought I would do something to do with languages in the future. And then as I got closer to the end of year 12, I started thinking even at the end of year 11, I was only really talking about going to the cinema with my friends and stuff like that in Mandarin. Whereas in French, I was having really philosophical conversations in French by that stage and reading literature and things like that.

[00:05:27] And so, I started wondering whether it was the right thing to do to continue with both languages. And so, I thought about it quite long and hard, and I decided, look, I can probably do French on the side and continue it that way and perhaps do something different. And so, I literally had no clue, like I had no idea what I wanted to do or what profession I wanted to be in at that age.

[00:05:49] And so, literally it was just looking through what else I could do with commerce. And came across law. And I thought, I don't really know anything about law, but it sounds okay. I'm a [00:06:00] humanities person. So, that might work for hit me. And so, I ended up picking law with really no conscious thought as to why really?

[00:06:09] And so, I fell into law that way. And did commerce and law at uni. And I found very quickly that I actually didn't like university economics at all. Cause it was very statistics heavy, all of a sudden. And that just wasn't my cup of tea. Whereas law, I really started to enjoy and I was like, wow, this is.

[00:06:29] This is amazing, right? Like I loved anything to do with human rights and international law and the social justice element of it was pretty amazing. And so, gradually I sort of ended up veering towards law. And that's, I guess how I ended up becoming a lawyer and the French I did on the side, because I loved it.

[00:06:51] I still love language. And I think it's such a beautiful thing when you can talk to people from the other side of the world in a [00:07:00] foreign language. And it allows you to understand people, places, and culture in a way that not much else can. I think it's, just so, special. And for that reason, every time I find myself in a French speaking environment, which hasn't been for a while, obviously with what we're living through at the moment. But when I do it takes me a little time to pick it up again fall back into it so, easily. And it's, beautiful. 

[00:07:27] Lara Quie: Yeah. So, I'm a fellow linguist. I did French and German and linguistics at university. So, yes, I love French as well. And as you say, language is such an insight into a culture and the psyche of a nation. Definitely a very good complimentary subject with law, I think because law is lot about language. How you have to be so, precise, you have to be concise, really explain yourself so, that there is no room for [00:08:00] error in a contract, et cetera. So, what, happened then? So, you had done law. Were you thinking about a career in law at that stage? Or were you still open to other things?

[00:08:11] Niti Nadarajah: I was definitely thinking about a career in law. I think what I wanted to really end up doing was something in the human rights space. That was my goal at the time. But from what I could tell, the only way that you got anywhere in law was to first go down the corporate path.

[00:08:28] And Big corporate uni. And DONE clerkships at major law firms. So, I had a reasonably good chance of getting something out of uni. So, I thought, okay, let me do that because then I've had that experience and then I can go from there. And so, that's what I ended up doing.

[00:08:45] I ended up getting a job at Ashurst which was Blake Dawson Waldron at the time. And I worked there for a few years and ended up just staying in corporate life even though I had this vision of doing [00:09:00] something else during law school, and I think what became hard is it became hard to know how to leave and how to go down this other path, because suddenly I was a corporate lawyer, and this is what I did. And so, I ended up staying, and I, quickly realized law firm life probably wasn't for me in the long run, but I went on a secondment. That was amazing. And then I started thinking about what do I do?

[00:09:24] I was on holiday in South America and then through a little bit of Europe as well. And I was sitting at a friend's place in London, and I was like, I really need to do something different. I feel a bit stuck everyone's settling down, I'm not there.

[00:09:40] And she said, why don't you move to London? I was like, that's a very good question. Why don't I? Because I had the passport, it was pretty easy at the time to get a job in London because Australians were in demand. This was pre GFC. And so, I started looking for a job as soon as I got back and within six months off, I [00:10:00] went and found myself in London and I was there for five years, lot longer than I thought I would be there, but I met my husband over there.

[00:10:07] So, I had to give him some extra time in London before I dragged him back home. And so, yeah, so, that's, what I ended up doing. And then it took me a while to leave private practice, even though I'd say to myself, this wasn't what I wanted to do long term. And it was only when I finally was looking to come back to Melbourne, and I wanted to settle down.

[00:10:27] I wanted to buy a property, have a family, and really move in-house. But at that point I was very over the transactional nature of what I was doing. I wanted to become embedded into a company. I wanted to get to know people a lot more deeply in terms of clients. And I wanted a different lifestyle as well.

[00:10:47] I want it to be busy throughout the day and not have these peaks and troughs that you have in private practice, where it can be really busy for three weeks. And then. Really quiet for a whole week. And then it's hard to get motivated during that one week [00:11:00] even though you have business development type stuff to do.

[00:11:03] So, I really want it to be busy through the day, but know that at the end of the day, I could leave work behind and I could go and plan my life out, catch up with friends and family and eventually have a family and have a family life as well. So, that's how I eventually found myself in house. 

[00:11:22] Lara Quie: Yes. And so, you've been in house in this particular company, Philip Morris for nine years, which is a very long time. So, obviously the in-house life did live up to your expectations and suit you. So, tell me a bit about the in-house journey. So, the initial move from private practice into in-house, what were the things that you needed to learn first?

[00:11:49] Niti Nadarajah: Yeah, it's a good question. And I think it's one that as I've seen people come into my team as well. I see where people need to adapt from law firm life to in-house. [00:12:00] I think some of the things that I really found I needed to learn were: 1. Not needing to put everything into writing.

[00:12:09] I think that was a big learning because in law firms you put everything in writing, and I think in house you need to start developing a different way of communicating with people. And so, you need to really get out from behind that computer and, speak to people. Talk on the phone, et cetera.

[00:12:26] So, I think that was one. I think the other thing which is related is how you adapt your communication. So, if you're speaking to another in-house lawyer, explain your analysis. The level of communication you have is very different. From that you have with say a business person where you need to really tell them the answer to the question and give them a recommendation and maybe putting a little bit of analysis.

[00:12:51] But not go overboard. And I think that is definitely an adjustment when you make from private practice, because in private practice, you're used to writing these long memos where you've [00:13:00] researched everything to death and you put in every single thing that you know, can support the argument potentially plus all the risks.

[00:13:08] And then a lot of the time people sit on the fence, but you can't do that in-house. You are an advisor to the business. And so, therefore you need to help them make decisions that work for them. In law firms. I was used to working on a deal where I might have say 10 things that I was doing at any given point in time, but there were only those finite 10 things.

[00:13:31] And you knew which one came first, which one came next. And it was very easy to prioritize because it was one transaction or, perhaps two or three transactions, maybe. Whereas in the in-house world, you might have 30 things on the go at any given point in time. And so, you need to learn how to prioritize between those different things.

[00:13:52] And so, that as well for me was a bit of a challenge initially, but I loved it. And then the last thing I would say is being able to [00:14:00] pick up anything. You don't know what's going to hit your desk. So, I've had some of the most odd queries come across my desk. and I'm like I have no idea where to start with this. And you quickly realize that Google is your friend.

[00:14:13] The first thing I would often do if I don't know exactly where to start is, do a little bit of an internet search to see if I can perhaps find the right direction. Not the answer necessarily, but a direction okay. I've got this question. Okay, it's pointing me to a certain law. Maybe I'll go look at that law and see if I can find my answer in that book.

[00:14:32] And then from there I can see where else I might need to go. So, that is definitely something you have to learn the ability to find the answer. Even when you have no clue how to get there in the first place. Yeah, so, there were a few of my big learnings initially. 

[00:14:49] Lara Quie: Definitely when it comes to in-house, it's all about being super commercial, understanding the business.

[00:14:56] And as you say, delivering a very concise [00:15:00] yes or no answer to the business people because they're busy and they want to move on and all they're asking you is, "can we do this?" They don't want to know all the background research. So, it's a simple yes or no. And I think that's probably the most challenging bit, isn't it?

[00:15:18] Because as you said, people tend to sit on the fence. Lawyers like to say you could do this for this reason, blah, blah, blah, but you might not want to do it because of these reasons. And then you go, okay, so, what do you think? What should I do? And they go I wouldn't like to say. That mindset is, the difficult bit, I think for, many lawyers. And so, let's think about some other lawyers and thinking about moving in-house at this point in time. You moved in house nine years ago so, the landscape in private practice and in-house is quite different these days. What advice have you got for a younger [00:16:00] lawyer thinking about moving in-house right now? 

[00:16:03] Niti Nadarajah: Yeah, look, I think there is a lot of opportunity, I think, in-house at the moment, particularly for junior lawyers and I think it is really it's a good place to learn, right? So, I think for younger lawyers that are out there that are thinking about in house, I would start exploring right. Start thinking about what it is you want to do, what sort of company you might want to work at. There's a difference between say working in a service industry where what you're dealing with is very intangible versus working at say a retail organization or at a consumer goods organization where what you're dealing with is quite tangible.

[00:16:43] So, the issues you're going to deal with are very different too. So, I would say start thinking about the things that you enjoy in your current job. And then the other thing I would say to people is don't pigeonhole yourself too quickly, because I think sometimes people get into this [00:17:00] frame of thinking where they go, “I'm good at contracts.

[00:17:03] So, I'm going to become a contract lawyer.” And what I would say to a junior lawyer is keep things really open really wide so, that you can go in-house with this open mindset of let me see what this is like. And let me see where my niche is, and maybe your niche is being a generalist. For me, that's something that I've found from having been a specialist in transactional work, both M&A and ECM for a decade.

[00:17:32] I suddenly became a generalist and now I love being a generalist. I love being able to do. Something to do with IP one day, something to do with competition law, the next something to do with employment law. Then next it actually, for me, really works. And I think sometimes as a private practice lawyer, particularly in your junior years, you can start going, Ooh, I really like this one thing. And so, that's my thing. And yeah, I would say keep your [00:18:00] horizons open and then look for even opportunities to be seconded. I know secondments have changed over the years and more firms don't do them quite as often, but there still are some out there.

[00:18:10] And so, I think that's a really good opportunity. To go in house and to see what it's like and get a feel for it. And I did two secondments over my time in private practice, and I loved both secondments. I was at ANZ first here in Melbourne. And then I was at Citi during the GFC, which was interesting.

[00:18:29] And what I realized was I loved in-house life. I loved the way of working in house. But I didn't necessarily want to work at a bank. So, those were things that I picked up during my secondments. And so, I think if you can get a secondment, it's a really good opportunity to one, workout if in-house is for you. But two, also start thinking about the sorts of organizations that might work for you as well. 

[00:18:56] Lara Quie: Absolutely, every organization is so, different [00:19:00] and having an opportunity to experience that on a secondment basis gives you such a great insight to be part of that team, see what that industry looks like, et cetera, and then just think about whether that might suit you. But thinking about in-house teams and different businesses have different size teams. Often here in Singapore in particular, it can be a one-person band. It can be just two of you, perhaps a general counsel and you'd be second or a larger team of four or five up to a hundred.

[00:19:33] Some legal teams for large entities are literally the size of a law firm. There's a big difference, but for someone starting out, I always think that it's a good idea to have at least a couple of people or one person above you. Because when you leave the security of a law firm where some bigger firms in particular, you have a professional support lawyer, you've got your other colleagues, especially, or your peers who you can [00:20:00] always ask.

[00:20:00] And then you generally have a partner and a senior associate that you can tap into. So, there's a lot of support around you, but when you move in house, it can often be quite lonely and, you'll be on your own. So, what sort of size team would you approach if you were say four or five year qualified lawyer

[00:20:18] Niti Nadarajah: I think you're right. I think the best thing you can do as a junior lawyer is to join at least a team that has a couple of people, as you say from whom you can learn and with whom you can discuss matters. Because I think there is much to be said for being able to discuss things with other people that you work with, who understand the business and understand the nuances of the business.

[00:20:41] It's very different talking to someone outside of your company or even an external counsel. They, understand the business to an extent, but they don't understand all of the nuances of how it is put together or how, things work. And so, I think having that ability to learn from other people is really [00:21:00] important as a junior lawyer.

[00:21:01] I would agree with you. I think moving to sole legal counsel roles, I would say probably leave for a few years until you have got some experience in either a small or a larger organization in terms of the legal team size. I don't think that matters quite as much. I think you can get a little bit lost in bigger legal teams and, you might have to specialize. That's the other thing in bigger teams, right? Bigger in-house teams is you might specialize earlier, whereas in a smaller team, you might be more of a generalist. So, again, it depends on what your niche is. So, if you are say an employment lawyer in a law firm and you want to move into employment law, then maybe those bigger team structures might work better because you might be able to specialize just in employment law. 

[00:21:43] But if you say are a corporate lawyer and you perhaps want to not necessarily just do transactional work, but try and explore a broader range of work, then you might be better off in a slightly smaller team. So, I think that's important to think through in terms of where you [00:22:00] think you're headed specialty or generalist wise.

[00:22:03] Lara Quie: Yeah, that's a really good point. And also thinking about mentorship. Did you have any mentors during your early career that you can attribute to having shared a lot of their experience with you? 

[00:22:17] Niti Nadarajah: So, I definitely, in my earlier career here in Melbourne had a senior associate that I would talk to quite regularly at work.

[00:22:25] I didn't have any formal mentor relationships. And even now I really don't. But I think mentoring has really changed over the years. It's become much more of a thing in the legal profession in recent times than it was when I was starting off as a junior lawyer. And I think it's a really great opportunity for younger lawyers.

[00:22:45] I think both within the law, but also outside of the law. And this is something I'm pretty big on is if you are looking to move in-house, don't limit yourself to just interacting with other lawyers either. You could get a mentor from [00:23:00] some sort of, I don't know if you're a woman say a women's network or something, or from another organization that does mentoring and that can be incredibly valuable because you can gain insights from a very different perspective.

[00:23:13] Which you often don't get as a lawyer. But I think, yeah, I think mentoring is amazing and I've started mentoring people this year as a way to give back a little bit both within the industry, but also outside of the industry. And it's been so, rewarding, even for me as a mentor, I have learned so, much in mentoring, other people.

[00:23:33] Lara Quie: It's great to hear that you're, mentoring yourself because as you say, there's definitely so, much to be gained for the mentee and the mentor. You can both learn from each other. It's a really great opportunity for growth and insights and sharing of experience so, that the other person doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

[00:23:53] But let's talk about LinkedIn because obviously we met, it's the most incredible [00:24:00] platform and you have certainly found your voice and grown. I think I did start following you quite some time ago. So, I've really noticed how you've moved into video in a big way. How you're really talking to people very directly, really engaging.

[00:24:17] I can see that your following has grown exponentially. Tell me a little bit about what it felt like to first get on LinkedIn, because I know that many lawyers are extremely hesitant. You've said before that you're an introvert. So, tell me about how you've used LinkedIn. 

[00:24:35] Niti Nadarajah: Yeah. So, for me, my LinkedIn journey has been a really interesting one. I did start posting every so, often and it would be really sporadic, like once every, I don't know, four months maybe. I would post something from a few years ago. And so, I remember for example, I posted something around the time of Diwali and so, even then I was posting stuff that was personal to me, more than professional, in that personal [00:25:00] professional divide that people often talk about, which I don't fully agree with. But anyway, so, it was sharing these personal stories even then, but it was very. Erratic. And I would only do it once in a while. And then last year with the pandemic I was returning from maternity leave.

[00:25:19] I'd had my son in August of 2019. And so, he was seven months old in March last year. And I was coming back to work. And then with COVID being what it was at the time I returned to work in a work from home environment and was just as locked downs were starting in Australia and with so, much going on and with not having seen my team with not having seen my colleagues.

[00:25:43] It was really challenging, right? Like videos and stuff at great. And I really enjoy the fact that we were getting an insight or a window into people's lives at home, but. I felt like because you're in a meeting, you have a purpose for that meeting. And [00:26:00] so, you talk about the subject matter of that meeting and then that's it, but all those water cooler discussions have disappeared.

[00:26:07] And so, I was looking for a way to have those discussions. And because I had dabbled in LinkedIn, It to some degree felt a little bit safe. And so, I was like maybe I'll start writing some more stuff on there. And so, I started writing a little bit more and initially I had no idea about building a following, building a network, like none of this factored in my thinking at all. Like I was just writing for the sake of writing because I needed to somehow talk about what I was feeling and what I was thinking or what I was seeing and share it with people. 

[00:26:43] What I realized over time was that writing on LinkedIn was fulfilling a need that I'd had for some time. But that I hadn't really realized as a need or a hole or a gap. And thinking back to [00:27:00] my law school days and what I wanted to do with my law degree it was all about social justice. And I found that through writing, I could start talking about social justice in a way that I hadn't, before I could start talking about mental health, right?

[00:27:16] Like I'd done stuff at work to increase mental health awareness, but I could talk about it on a greater scale. And make a difference and not just talk, because often I get this comment sometimes from people around talk is just talk and that's right. And so, for me, it was well beyond the talk.

[00:27:35] What can I do? So, with the whole black lives matter thing last year, I'd never myself been impacted by or overtly impacted by racism. But my parents had to some degree and when it hit, I realized that everyone was talking about white privilege, but actually I had my own privilege in that I hadn't been impacted by it.

[00:27:57] And yet as a person [00:28:00] successful and senior in her profession, I had the opportunity to do something with that and to give back and to help other people. And so, it started this sort of chain of events where I started reaching out to people I thought had inspirational stories about how they had gotten into social justice work and how I could help in that space.

[00:28:22] Without necessarily getting anything back in return even now I help out other organizations here and there. I don't necessarily get any kudos for that. But to me, it was my way of going. I need to do something. And there were two aspects that doing something, one was talking about issues.

[00:28:42] And two was actually taking some action and working with some organizations that are doing work in this space. And I wasn't sure what that looked like initially. Cause I said, what can I do? As one person, what can I do? But there is so, much that you can do if you put your [00:29:00] mind to it.

[00:29:00] And it's, been the same for me with pregnancy loss for example, which is a deeply personal issue for me having suffered pregnancy loss and hadn't quite known how to talk about it or had the courage to and through talking about it more and more on LinkedIn. Not only have I overcome that fear and put it behind me to the extent that now when people say, wow, it's so, courageous of you to share that, I go, do you know what it doesn't feel courageous anymore?

[00:29:27] It just is because it's important. I need to talk about it. It's no longer brave of me share it. And I share things quite openly now. But through doing that, it's allowed me to go actually I can help other people through talking about these things. And so, again what can I do both on and off LinkedIn to make a difference in this space. And I think the pandemic, as I think it has for many people really gave me this realization that I don't have an infinite number of days left in this world. everything that I've put off till tomorrow or the day after, or [00:30:00] the next year, in terms of one day, I'm going to do X that day has to be now because who knows what's going to happen tomorrow. And yeah, so, I've, really grown over the last two years and I think LinkedIn has been a massive part of that journey. So, yeah, so, that's, I guess my, story on LinkedIn. 

[00:30:18] Lara Quie: It's a fantastic story of growth and self-exploration. And it's almost like a live diary. Isn't it? LinkedIn posting every day, it's effectively a blog. And it's the therapy of writing down your thoughts, it's cathartic in terms of being able to get that out of you. Isn't it? The idea that you will share a thought or something that you're going through right now, but then people respond to say things like, absolutely that resonates with me as well.

[00:30:52] When you said this. Yes. I had been through that and sometimes people offer advice as well, which is really nice. They can [00:31:00] check in with this helped me or someone else might private message you and say, you talked about pregnant pregnancy loss I'm going through that right now.

[00:31:09] And this helped me so, much that you were talking about this. And I think that because LinkedIn is obviously a professional platform, sometimes when things are shared, which are. Usually relatively private it's even more impactful, isn't it? Because there's something about Facebook where lots of people have verbal diarrhoea about all sorts of things, but it's the context of LinkedIn and that context of here is a Head of Legal sharing, something exceedingly personal. And especially within the context of lawyers who generally tend to be more reserved about personal things. They're not overly into sharing generally. And so, that surprises people. And I think those lawyers who don't want to talk about things.

[00:31:56] Will see you as a role model and then [00:32:00] start to think, wow she says these things. What if I just reply in a small comment just to say, oh, that resonated with me that helps them to come out of their shell and just expand their world and think about how things are for other people.

[00:32:16] So, tell me about authentic and vulnerable leadership. You've been at Phillip Morris for nine years. You must have quite a team around you. In what ways are you demonstrating authentic and vulnerable leadership for them? 

[00:32:32] Niti Nadarajah: Yeah. Good question. For me, the big thing is transparency. And I think over the last year, I think this has been really important. I don't sugar coat things. I don't make things out to be something that they're not for me. It's about saying things as they are. And so, last year I was really. The transparent with people as to the fact that I wasn't okay.

[00:32:54] A lot of the time and things were hard and they're not easy. And I needed to [00:33:00] recognize that in myself, in order for other people to feel that they have permission to recognize that as well at work. And so, for me that's a really, big one. I think the other one that was really important to me, particularly last year was the juggle of parenting through a pandemic and not even through a pandemic, but just generally, it is a juggle when you're a parent. And I try to be as transparent as possible again about my juggle and so, last year, even though I returned with a seven month old at home and a child remote learning, I was like, I'm going to keep my video on.

[00:33:37] If I'm rushing upstairs to change a nappy, you're coming with me and you going to see me, you won't necessarily see the nappy, but you'll see me changing my baby, or if I'm feeding him a bottle. Then you're going to see me feeding him a bottle, or if I have to hold him or feed him or whatever, then you're going to see that too.

[00:33:57] And for me, it was important to do that [00:34:00] as a senior woman, but also as a senior person in the organization, because I think men have this issue too, around not sharing their personal lives. It was important to be able to say to people it's okay. If you're juggling, struggling not coping with things it's fine and it isn't easy and we don't need to pretend that it's easy.

[00:34:20] We just need to be ourselves and show up as ourselves. And so, that, that is really important to me. The other thing I would say is trust I'm a big believer in trust first. Whereas I think in organizations often. They can be built around a concept of mistrust first and you earn trust. But from my perspective, I think as a leader, I need to sorry, losing my voice.

[00:34:46] I need to earn trust, but they don't need to earn trust.

[00:34:50] Lara Quie: Trust is at the heart of everything. I totally agree. And particularly in the remote environment. And so, I do think there's a [00:35:00] difference between those people, such as yourself, who had been within the organization for a long time, and then you switched to remote work from home. But you already understood the fabric of that organization.

[00:35:13] Having been there over a long period of time, understanding the politics, understanding the leadership who's really in charge. How does this organization work? How do things get done? All of the elements of the business, having been in the office and seeing different things and travelled, right?

[00:35:32] Cause you had been to other offices and head office and all sorts. So, you have a really, good overview. But what do you recommend to somebody let's say you've got a new joiner of your team next week. What do you recommend to them as a person who is joining a remote situation?

[00:35:49] Because they're going to be worked from home initially and probably for some time, but what could you recommend to someone like that? How can they get the insights that [00:36:00] they need to do their job to the best of their ability? 

[00:36:03] Niti Nadarajah: Yeah, it's a tricky one. And I really do feel for people that have started jobs in the pandemic or during the pandemic in a remote environment, it's not easy because you do miss those water cooler conversations.

[00:36:18] They can be the foundation for relationships in companies. But what I would say is be proactive reach out to people as many people as you can, across other teams and just have conversations try and learn from them. Just say to them, look I just want you to take me through what you do how your team works and just have a chat and just catch up.

[00:36:42] And I think that's the best way. Yeah. To be able to get to know people fundamentally but also understand a little bit more about how an organization is put together. And if the company doesn't have it, maybe ask for a buddy [00:37:00] system ask for someone that you can have that can help you early days of the organization. If you work at a multi-national, perhaps see if you can talk to someone as well from outside of your affiliates, so, that you get that broader perspective as to how the organization, as a whole is put together and just engage, right? Like just, if you hear something in a meeting that you like, I don't know what that means.

[00:37:24] I don't understand that. Take the initiative to go and reach out to people who can help you understand it. So, if you don't understand how the supply chain at a company works, for example, reach out to the supply chain manager and go, can you walk me through how this works? I do think as well part from the employee, I think leaders have a responsibility or managers have a responsibility too, towards new employees to make sure they're being onboarded properly, because it is really hard in a remote environment. People often forget. How much you have [00:38:00] learned through osmosis over the years. And so, it can be easy to make an assumptions that oh, they must know that often you've learnt that thing over the years that you've been at an organization.

[00:38:11] So, I think you need to, as a leader, start from. Zero assume no knowledge and say, okay, how do I help this person understand how we operate as a business? Think about the people that you can put the person in touch with as well, so, that they can get a broader understanding too.

[00:38:28] Lara Quie: Absolutely. It sounds a lot like people need to be really hot on communication, so, they need to take their initiative and reach out and, really take advantage actually of the fact that people are available on zoom, right? So, you can reach international people. They're much more used to zoom now than ever before.

[00:38:52] So, you actually have an opportunity to, speak to the head of supply chain in Europe and across Asia, et cetera, [00:39:00] in a way that in a in, person environment, you probably wouldn't have done that before. So, actually you can get a better insight into global operations than, ever before.

[00:39:11] It's quite an interesting time, but yeah, I think it is about people taking ownership being responsible for their own development within, the company. But I, believe in having a, sort of a honeymoon period so, like a short window of time in which you should really tell everyone that you've arrived, that you're hungry for knowledge.

[00:39:31] You really want to get to know everybody. This is the time to ask all the really basic questions, but to really do your research and put in the time and effort very early on, because obviously the later you leave things, it starts to get a bit difficult to reach out and to ask. So, really have a plan of action set out when you first arrive in a place.

[00:39:53] Make sure you meet all the key people have those one to ones, but not just on a business front, also at a [00:40:00] personal level. Yeah. So, say, can we have an hour together? The first half we'll, talk about personal stuff. I just really want to get you to know you as a person. And then the other half let's talk about your role in the business, how we're going to interact and how I can help you and you can help me et cetera. So, I think that could be a good way forward. Anyway, it's been amazing to talk to you Niti, I've really had a great conversation with you.

[00:40:27] And I hope that our listeners have had some great insights as well. So, where can people connect with you if they want to reach out?

[00:40:36] Niti Nadarajah: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am on LinkedIn as you mentioned, so, that's probably the easiest way for people to connect with me. I'm not big on the other social media platforms, to be honest. Yeah, so, LinkedIn, I would say 

[00:40:49] Lara Quie: Definitely, they will find you on LinkedIn. I'm sure they will devour your content and interact with you and leave lots of comments and it's been great. 

[00:40:58] So, thank you very much [00:41:00] for your time, Niti.

[00:41:02] Thank you for listening to this episode of the Legal Genie Podcast. If you found the content at all valuable, please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people in the legal industry find the show. And don't forget to share this with anyone you think would benefit from listening to it as well. Until next time, have a magical week ahead.