A Trusted Advisor with Good Judgment – An Exclusive Conversation with Edmund Leow SC - Episode 46

Episode 46: A Trusted Advisor with Good Judgment – An Exclusive Conversation with Edmund Leow SC

In this insightful episode of *The Legal Genie Podcast*, host Lara Quie sits down with the esteemed Edmund Leow SC, a Senior Partner at Dentons Rodyk and former Judicial Commissioner of the Singapore Supreme Court. With over three decades of experience in cross-border tax planning, international trade, and trust law, Edmund shares his incredible journey from his early days at Cambridge University to becoming Singapore’s first and only tax and trust lawyer awarded the Senior Counsel title.

Edmund reflects on his career with global law firm Baker McKenzie, the challenges of managing high-net-worth clients, and how lawyers can become true trusted advisors in a world where legal expertise alone isn't enough. From navigating the complexities of cross-border legal work to offering wisdom on mentoring and career progression, this episode is packed with practical insights for both seasoned professionals and aspiring lawyers.

Whether you’re interested in the evolving role of law firms in international business, managing complex client relationships, or what it takes to serve as a judge in one of the world’s top legal systems, this episode offers an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at what it means to be a leader in the legal field. Tune in for expert advice, career-defining lessons, and strategies to become a trusted advisor in today's global legal landscape.

Don’t miss this compelling conversation—subscribe now and take your legal career to the next level!

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Transcript

A Trusted Advisor with Good Judgement with Edmund Leow SC - Episode 46

Lara Quie: Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to another career mentoring episode of The Legal Genie Podcast with me, your host, Lara Quie. Today, I'm delighted to be in conversation with Edmund Leow SC. Based in Singapore, Edmund is a Senior Partner at Dentons Rodyk, where he is a member of the corporate practice group and Head of the tax practice.

He is also Co-Head of the Trust Estates and Wealth Preservation and Family Office Practice. Edmund has three decades of experience in advising multinational organizations on cross border tax planning, transfer pricing, and tax disputes. He also advises on international trade issues such as customs, WTO, and free trade agreements.

In addition, Edmund advises high net worth individuals, family offices, private banks and trust companies on personal tax, trust and estate planning matters. He was invited by the Singapore Government to serve as a Judicial Commissioner at the Supreme Court and served from 2013 to 2016. Upon stepping down, he was appointed Senior Counsel in 2017, making him the first and only tax and trust lawyer to be given this accolade in Singapore. Welcome to the show, Edmund. 

Edmund Leow SC: Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. 

Lara Quie: It'd be really good to have some insights into your background and before you started on your career. So please tell me a little bit about your childhood and where you grew up. 

Edmund Leow SC: Yeah, I grew up in Singapore. I was born and bred here.

I'm a product of my era, Singapore wasn't a developed, advanced city as it is today. But I was like any other kid in Singapore in the 1960s. So, I went to school in Singapore, served national service. At that point, I decided to study law.

I went to Cambridge in England and graduated from Cambridge. And then I decided to stay on in England for a while. I qualified as a solicitor in England practiced for a couple of years. After that. Decided to come back home. On the way home, decided to make a detour in Hong Kong.

So I was in Hong Kong for a year. So I practiced in Hong Kong as well for a year before coming back. That, that was the early 90s. 

Lara Quie: Let's backtrack a bit to your time getting to Cambridge University and your inspiration for wanting to do law in the first place. Do you have anyone in your family or was there someone that really inspired you?

Edmund Leow SC: My family doesn't have many lawyers, but I did have an eldest brother who was a lawyer for a while. He's since retired, he's no longer a lawyer. But nevertheless, I think he's the one who gave me the idea of being a lawyer. And he's also the one who gave me the idea of being a lawyer in an international firm practicing on a cross border basis.

Because in those days, virtually all lawyers were domestic, right? No matter which country you're in the laws vary from one country to another. And in those days, no, no lawyer would have dreamed of trying to do cross border work. And in fact, every time a client came along with questions on some other jurisdiction, lawyers would be wondering where they could hide, because they didn't know the answers and they didn't know, they didn't know how to help their clients, which is unfortunate. But I joined in the end, I joined Baker McKenzie, which is one of the pioneers of international legal practice.

Lara Quie: Yeah, so was that the firm that you trained with in London and how did you go about getting your training contract? 

Edmund Leow SC: Yes. Yes, so that was the firm I trained with and that was the firm I continued practicing with both in London as well as in Hong Kong and then eventually in Singapore, but I wanted to join that firm because, as I said, they were one of the pioneers in international practice. 

I mean, certainly in that era, which is the 1980s. There were hardly any international firms in those days. The current Magic Circle firms in London, were just starting out getting into international practice and Baker was actually a lot earlier because Baker believed in practicing across borders with offices around the world.

In those days, the Magic Circle firms believed that everything should be governed by English law, right? No matter where they were in the world, they still said, "Oh, you have to use English law. And if you don't use English law, then you're not fit to come to us. So therefore, go away." And of course, I'm happy that today they no longer take that view. But I'm just describing, the situation as it was in the 1980s. 

Lara Quie: Yeah, so for you to go overseas at a young age, do your university degree, and then join Bakers. What was that like as a young Singaporean? Because even these days, it is quite difficult to get many Singaporeans to leave such a comfortable and nice place as Singapore. So what was it like for you to experience that different mindset and that different way of life? 

Edmund Leow SC: Yeah, well, actually, I... I always wanted to see the world. So in that sense it wasn't so hard to persuade me to do it. Maybe today, I think you're right. Singapore is very comfortable. Singapore has come a long way since the 1980s.

That's the fact of life, right? Singapore has come a long way. I think in those days, the need for a young Singaporean to go overseas, to see the world, to learn about the world I think that need was probably greater then, than it is today. And today maybe some of our young people think that Singapore is the centre of the universe.

I keep telling people there's a lot more to the universe than just our little island here. But you're right. I think people are, maybe they're a bit too comfortable these days. 

Lara Quie: So thinking about your career at Bakers, you were there for nearly 26 years. What was your career progression like within that firm?

Edmund Leow SC: Well, I guess I went through the traditional journey. I was a trainee in London, then I qualified. I was an associate in London, then in Hong Kong. And of course, in those days I could get automatic admission in Hong Kong. That was the pre 1997 Hong Kong. So it was still a British colony then.

I could just walk in as an English solicitor, get automatic admission. So it was quite easy. Then I came back to Singapore and eventually I made partnership in Singapore. At the time of my departure, I was Managing Partner of the Singapore office. 

Lara Quie: Oh right. So Tell me about the responsibilities of being Managing Partner and the kind of mindset that you had at that time and how difficult it was to manage all of these very autonomous lawyers.

Edmund Leow SC: Yes. Actually, being a Managing Partner of a law firm is a thankless task. one of the lessons I learned immediately. And it's, I think it's still true today. I can only say I'm glad I'm not Managing Partner where I am now because lawyers, a Managing Partner is essentially a manager.

And we didn't go to law school to learn how to manage people. And of course, the problem is in a law firm, it's actually a lot harder running a law firm than some other businesses because you're managing people, right? In a law firm, what are the assets that the firm has?

You don't have buildings, you don't have machinery, all you have is people, right? And the people, and these are very opinionated people. So it's not just anyone, right? So, so your only asset I, it's not only my main asset, it's your only asset. Your only asset is a bunch of highly opinionated people. So, it's a very difficult business to manage. 

Lara Quie: So it sounds like you were quite relieved to be invited by the Singapore Government to serve as a Judicial Commissioner in 2013. So tell me about that experience and what you had to learn in that process. 

Edmund Leow SC: Yeah, I must say I, I was surprised to be asked. It's not the kind of job you apply for, right? There's no application form to fill out. if they want you, they ask you, right? And then you have to decide whether to agree or not. But I was surprised, I was asked. But on the other 

hand, I thought I thought it was a, it was a big challenge, and I thought it was a great opportunity to serve your country. So, to me, I think it, it wasn't something that I could refuse. 

Lara Quie: So what sort of cases did you handle during those three years? 

Edmund Leow SC: I handled all sorts of cases. The only thing I said to them was that I didn't want to handle criminal cases. Because frankly I had no prior experience of criminal work, so I thought, it wouldn't be fair to ask me, and I'm thinking not just that it wouldn't be fair to me, but it wouldn't be fair to the other parties involved, so, so therefore I said to them, please don't give me criminal cases, but apart from that I handled a very broad range of civil cases, so it was, a real eye opener.

And I suppose as a lawyer, of course, I think most lawyers would be thrilled to be given an opportunity to help for the development of the legal system, which is what judges do actually. So that was, that was a thrill.

Lara Quie: Yeah, it really sounds like an incredible privilege, as you say, to be part of the justice system and to be invited to such a position that, as you say, you can't apply for, you have to be asked, and it's a big responsibility and it's such a broad range of cases. So it must have given you incredible insight and new respect for people who are judges.

I mean, It's such an important part of society. And the rule of law, which of course, as we know, is so strong here in Singapore and what makes it such an international beacon for lots of different lawyers and law firms, and thinking about law firms currently, there are so many arriving here, still opening new branches, new offices here in Singapore. What do you think attracts them here? And do you think that the market is possibly oversaturated? 

Edmund Leow SC: Yeah, you're right. There are still new law firms coming in. I think it's a tribute to Singapore in a way that so many law firms from all over the world want to come here. And it reflects I think Singapore's growing prominence as a financial centre and as a business hub.

I think the rule of law is extremely important. And I suppose to some extent, I must say that, as a judge, that was one of the things that bears some responsibility because obviously, if you're a judge, you have the duty of upholding the legal system uh, sort of the, the buck stops with you.

It's not like when you're acting as counsel representing your client, right? When all you're interested in is pursuing your client's best interest, but as a judge you can't do that, right? You have to think about how the legal system is going to develop. You have to think about how the public has to maintain their respect for the law, for the legal system. And those are the things you worry about. So it's a it's quite a different perspective. 

Lara Quie: Yeah, it really sounds like a huge responsibility. You probably had some sleepless nights. 

Edmund Leow SC: Yes. it's a very different kind of responsibility because obviously as a practitioner, of course, you're always worried about where are you going to find more clients from?

Where you're going to collect more fees from and so therefore you have sleepless nights from that perspective. But as a judge, your concerns are completely different but no less worrying. 

Lara Quie: Yeah. And so when you stepped down, you were then made Senior Counsel, which obviously is such an esteemed position. How did that feel at the time? 

Edmund Leow SC: Well, yeah, there aren't that many Senior Counsel in Singapore. I think they've appointed from the beginning, when the system was first introduced, I think they probably appointed fewer than a hundred Senior Counsel. And of course, many of those have since retired or they've gone on to do other things, so I don't know actually how many are still actively practicing. It's certainly far less than 100. So, yeah, it's a, well, it's humbling. I mean that, that's all I can say. 

Lara Quie: So, on my show, quite a lot of people have shared about how they've felt something known as imposter syndrome, and I'm wondering whether you ever felt that? It sounds like you were invited to be a judge and then you received the title of SC. Were there any moments when you ever felt imposter syndrome?

Edmund Leow SC: Well, you always feel a bit like that when, when you're asked questions that you don't know the answer to, right? Which, every lawyer has experienced that. And I suppose if you are dealing with, for example, when I was a judge, as I said, I dealt with all kinds of different cases.

There are bound to be cases, in areas that you're not very expert in. But you have to learn, that's all I can say, right? You have to learn; you have to do your best. And I suppose, I hope I did a decent job. I still hear occasionally of people uh, citing my cases.

So that's another new experience that you find as a judge. Obviously, when because your decisions obviously become case law. So, you bump into somebody, okay, we lawyers bump into other lawyers quite often, right? So they will say, "oh, yeah, I cited your case in this and that and I was arguing this and arguing that."

So, it gives you a sense of satisfaction, obviously, but hopefully you've done a good job. You hope, right? You, you can never be sure but you hope you've done a good job and you hope you haven't disappointed people, those who appointed you. 

Lara Quie: And I'm sure you haven't. So thinking about your career journey, what have been your greatest challenges as a lawyer? 

Edmund Leow SC: I think the greatest challenges I think come from working on a, in a cross border world. I think that's one of the greatest challenges because Very often clients come to you with all kinds of questions.

Clients, especially lay clients, may not know how to characterize those questions. So they may not be asking the questions in the way that a lawyer would analyse the facts. Sometimes you have to reframe the question for them. And you sometimes say, well, actually, what you asked me is not the real issue for you.

The real issue is something else. And why should you be asking that other question? So That's what you need to do. And sometimes it's not easy to do that. Particularly when you're going to reframe that question into another question to which you don't actually know the answer, right?

And you think, oh, maybe I need to think about this. Maybe I need to consult some other lawyer and some other jurisdiction. It's not so easy. And so those are the challenges. One good thing I find, of course, is that keeps life interesting, right? You never know all the answers.

You are constantly facing questions that, you know that you cannot answer. Frankly, if you could easily answer every question that was asked, then life would be too boring, right? So, in a way, I'm happy that, even at my level, after all these years of experience, I'm still being, I'm still being challenged with questions that I can't answer. So it, it keeps life interesting. 

Lara Quie: Definitely. I think, yeah, everyone needs to ensure that their career is challenging, that every single day is different and you still enjoy going to work and having that mental challenge, as you say. So thinking about your career though, were you ever guided by any mentors?

Edmund Leow SC: Oh, I think too many, to be honest. I can hardly remember all of them because there were so many mentors in different, different contexts in different jurisdictions. I, obviously I had good mentors. I'm lucky because I had good mentors at various stages of my life.

So, so I think I'm very happy about that. And of course I still have mentors today, right? You're always learning, right? You never tell yourself that I've learned everything. Therefore, I don't need to learn any more. You are constantly learning.

And that's also another reason why I find my work interesting because, if you know everything then well, you might as well stop. 

Lara Quie: Yeah. So what is the best advice that you have ever received? 

Edmund Leow SC: I think the best advice for example, when I was still a young lawyer, one of the partners said, "well, don't just tell your client the law because that's not what your client needs to know. Your client is actually asking you, what should I do? Not what is the law on this or that. That's not what the client wants. And so you need to put yourself in your client's shoes. And you need to think about the situation your client is in." 

So in other words, you're not just advising the law. You're looking at the situation. And I think that is where obviously an experienced lawyer is very useful for the client because, an experienced lawyer has life experience and is able to advise the client based on that. And that's something which, I guess is as I get more and more senior, I find that clients value that more and more.

In other words, clients value your judgment rather than just citing all the statutes to them, which doesn't actually answer that question. So that, I think I've always learned from that lesson. 

Lara Quie: Yes, that's a really important lesson.

And I think many of your clients are high net worth individuals. So your practice is slightly unusual in that you will be dealing with those families and individuals in a way that many corporate lawyers generally don't and therefore being able to put yourself in their shoes and to give really commercial advice and wide-ranging advice as well, because you're dealing with many issues such as inheritance, estate planning, wider tax.

And so you need that big picture and you need to think long term about the generations that follow and also taking personalities into account and things like that. So definitely just being a letter of the law lawyer is not going to work in such a situation. 

Edmund Leow SC: Yeah, exactly. Because some of the questions that we deal with are highly personal. So, in this area, I'm advising very high network clients on very sensitive personal issues. And most of these are people with a lot of money, of course and I always tell people first, money doesn't bring happiness. That's one. And the more money you have, the more problems you have because you need to worry about who to give it to, right?

And giving away money is actually very difficult. People think it's difficult to make money, but giving it away is no easier. It's surprising. It's surprising to people like you and I, because we're not in that category at all. For people in that category, who to give the money to, whether it's their children, grandchildren, whether it should be a charity, or if so, what kind of charity? Those are very difficult questions.

And I've seen many clients agonize over these decisions and not only who to give it to but then how to explain why they're doing what they're doing. That's incredibly difficult. So, often my clients will tell me things that, obviously they don't even tell their own family.

They haven't told their wives, they haven't told their children because they, well, there are things that they can't tell their families. So at that level it becomes very difficult, right? And so that, that's what I meant when I said you, you need life experience and that's why your clients will rely on your judgment.

So it's not the law. It's judgment. What should I do? Should I do this? Should I do that? So it's again, and I guess, as I said, as you get more senior, then more and more of your clients are relying on your judgment rather than the law.

Lara Quie: That's very much the true definition of the trusted advisor and confidant, isn't it? And I think that most lawyers do aspire to achieving that level of confidence with their client. And so if you think about lawyers, especially partners in law firms, what kind of things can they do to become a trusted advisor?

Edmund Leow SC: Well, I think they have to first acquire the knowledge. And as I said, obviously, it's not just knowledge about the law, it's knowledge about so many other areas as well. The other thing I would mention is that lawyers are becoming increasingly specialized. When I first started, there was still lots of general practitioners around doing all kinds of things.

Obviously, there are fewer and fewer these days and, the law is getting more and more complex. So in fact, it's very hard to be a generalist these days. You can't master all the different areas of law. In fact, people are becoming narrower and narrower in their specializations.

 The danger of that, of course, is that you may lose the big picture, and if you can't see the big picture, then frankly, it's going to get harder to be a trusted advisor because your client actually is looking for someone who can see the big picture. So that's a problem.

And uh, I'm wondering how future generations of lawyers are going to solve that problem. Because on the one hand, you get more and more specialized in more and more technical, narrower and narrower areas. And yet, on the other hand, when you become a senior partner, your clients are expecting you to see that general picture, right?

Because otherwise, how do they rely on you, right? They're not going to go to 20, 30 different lawyers who specialize in 20 or 30 different areas. That's not possible because they're looking for a trusted advisor who can exercise judgment. See, again, that's the key to this right, is judgment. So it's a difficult problem. 

Lara Quie: Yeah, that's a really good point about zooming in too much to actually miss out on the bigger picture. And also the fact that law is so much more complicated. It is so intertwined as well with current affairs, geopolitical risks, different sort of interactions, the way that Singapore is now involved with so many cross border and all of these things are so intermeshed and intertwined, and people do need to have a good grasp of current affairs. They need to be widely read. What are the kind of things that young lawyers should be focusing on right now to equip themselves with the mindset and the skills that they are going to need to be a future lawyer?

Edmund Leow SC: Yeah, absolutely I think I think there's a dilemma here, as I mentioned just now. So, I suppose the real question is how do you do both, right? How do you become expert on your chosen area of speciality? But still you don't want to lose the big picture. And you want to keep up with what's going on.

I think you have to be very curious. I think that's one thing I would say to young lawyers. You have to be curious as to what's going on around the world, you have to be curious on your client's concerns. The concerns of different types of people. I think, everyone realizes these days, with the global geopolitical situation.

You have to follow what's going on politically around the world as well. In a way I'm interested in politics. I'm interested in history. I'm interested in all these issues and, basically, I've always been interested, quite apart from being a lawyer.

So, so these are things that I've always been interested in anyway, so in a way maybe that, my personal interests do equip me to some extent to keep up with what's going on around the world. For example, I'm very busy with helping high net worth families from all over the world who are moving to Singapore.

I think everyone knows that there are lots of families like that. And you obviously have to know why they're moving here, right? They're moving here because of things happening economically, things happening politically in various countries. And if you know why they're moving here, then you are better able to serve, right?

Whereas if you don't know why they're moving here, then, well, frankly, I don't think you're going to be very helpful to them. And that’s something which I think young lawyers have to be very much aware of. 

Lara Quie: So have you got any specific advice for young people listening?

Edmund Leow SC: Talk to different kinds of people and, just keep up with what's going on in the world. I think that's extremely important. And I think you also have to be aware to a large extent of you know, issues in other areas of law, not just the one that you specialize in. Maintain your general awareness of different areas.

Obviously, you're not going to, you're not going to be a top expert on these other areas. That's not possible. But at least you need to know enough to be aware of what the issues are. Because otherwise, again you're not going to be very helpful in terms of how to be a trusted advisor.

Because, you know, you're, to a large extent, what a trusted advisor does, as I said just now, was really to help the client spot the issues not just to answer the questions you've been asked. In fact I would say three quarters of your job is actually to ask the right question or help, help the client to ask the right question.

Lara Quie: And listening, right? You have to be a really good listener. 

Edmund Leow SC: Yes, absolutely. Listen to your client's questions, listen to your client's concerns, and after your client has told you their concerns, then help them to ask the right questions. And then after that you can help them to identify who can answer those questions. It may not be yourself, right? It may not be. It may or may not be, but that's, that is the trusted advisor that the client needs. 

Lara Quie: It is. Thank you so much for your time, Edmund. Where can people reach you if they want to contact you? 

Edmund Leow SC: Oh, Well, I'm now, of course, with Dentons Rodyk, so look at the Dentons website. I'll be there. I'm also on LinkedIn. So if you search on LinkedIn, you'll find me there. 

Lara Quie: Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time, Edmund. 

 Thanks a lot.