{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":5.01,"endTime":6.99,"body":"Today we have Bill Ong Hing."},{"startTime":7.33,"endTime":11.91,"body":"He is a professor of law and migration"},{"startTime":7.33,"endTime":11.91,"body":"studies at the University of San"},{"startTime":11.91,"endTime":17.85,"body":"Francisco and professor of law and Asian"},{"startTime":11.91,"endTime":17.85,"body":"American studies emeritus at UC Davis."},{"startTime":18.62,"endTime":22.329,"body":"Previously on the law faculties"},{"startTime":18.62,"endTime":22.329,"body":"at Stanford University and"},{"startTime":22.329,"endTime":23.554,"body":"Golden Gate University."},{"startTime":23.865,"endTime":28.465,"body":"He founded the Immigrant Legal"},{"startTime":23.865,"endTime":28.465,"body":"Resource Center in San Francisco"},{"startTime":28.635,"endTime":32.455,"body":"and directs their Immigration"},{"startTime":28.635,"endTime":32.455,"body":"and Deportation Defense Clinic."},{"startTime":33.075,"endTime":37.125,"body":"Professor Hing teaches Immigration"},{"startTime":33.075,"endTime":37.125,"body":"Law and Policy, Migration Studies,"},{"startTime":37.595,"endTime":40.065,"body":"Rebellious Lawyering, and Evidence."},{"startTime":40.585,"endTime":42.585,"body":"He is the author of six books."},{"startTime":43.19,"endTime":49.1,"body":"And was co-counsel in the US Supreme Court"},{"startTime":43.19,"endTime":49.1,"body":"asylum precedent set a precedent setting"},{"startTime":49.1,"endTime":53.9,"body":"case I n S versus Cardoza Fonseca in 1987."},{"startTime":55.02,"endTime":59.85,"body":"Throughout his career, professor"},{"startTime":55.02,"endTime":59.85,"body":"Bill ING pursued social justice"},{"startTime":60.06,"endTime":64.44,"body":"through a combination of community"},{"startTime":60.06,"endTime":64.44,"body":"work, litigation, and scholarship."},{"startTime":65.125,"endTime":70.135,"body":"Most recently, he has published his"},{"startTime":65.125,"endTime":70.135,"body":"book, Humanizing Immigration, which"},{"startTime":70.185,"endTime":74.225,"body":"argues that immigrant and refugee"},{"startTime":70.185,"endTime":74.225,"body":"rights are part of the fight for racial"},{"startTime":74.225,"endTime":79.195,"body":"justice and offers a humanitarian"},{"startTime":74.225,"endTime":79.195,"body":"approach to reform and abolition."},{"startTime":79.945,"endTime":82.114,"body":"Professor Hing, welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":82.935,"endTime":84.285,"body":"Thank you very much for having me."},{"startTime":84.884,"endTime":85.505,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":85.514,"endTime":87.395,"body":"Thank you so much for all your work."},{"startTime":87.825,"endTime":88.705,"body":"Can we get started?"},{"startTime":88.705,"endTime":90.505,"body":"Can I ask you some"},{"startTime":88.705,"endTime":90.505,"body":"questions and get started?"},{"startTime":91.035,"endTime":91.705,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":91.985,"endTime":92.535,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":92.675,"endTime":93.205,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":93.775,"endTime":98.634,"body":"So I'd like to go back usually when I'm,"},{"startTime":93.775,"endTime":98.634,"body":"uh, talking to individuals like yourselves"},{"startTime":98.634,"endTime":99.965,"body":"and, and kind of figure out like."},{"startTime":100.52,"endTime":103.23,"body":"You know, why did you become a professor?"},{"startTime":103.24,"endTime":104.64,"body":"Like, where did that come from?"},{"startTime":105.64,"endTime":106.66,"body":"Well, that's a good question."},{"startTime":106.9,"endTime":108.18,"body":"Not many people ask me that."},{"startTime":108.21,"endTime":112.699,"body":"When I, I'll be honest with you, when I"},{"startTime":108.21,"endTime":112.699,"body":"first walked in to a law school class,"},{"startTime":112.74,"endTime":118.469,"body":"and it happened to have been at University"},{"startTime":112.74,"endTime":118.469,"body":"of San Francisco, I enjoyed the way"},{"startTime":118.93,"endTime":124.99,"body":"Law was taught and it was a lot of back"},{"startTime":118.93,"endTime":124.99,"body":"and forth, give and take, and I was"},{"startTime":124.99,"endTime":127.43,"body":"fascinated by that method of teaching."},{"startTime":127.45,"endTime":130.61,"body":"And I thought, you know what, I'd"},{"startTime":127.45,"endTime":130.61,"body":"actually kind of like to do that."},{"startTime":130.729,"endTime":135.429,"body":"And so, um, I was"},{"startTime":130.729,"endTime":135.429,"body":"attracted to teaching law."},{"startTime":135.895,"endTime":139.505,"body":"From the very first time"},{"startTime":135.895,"endTime":139.505,"body":"I sat in a law, law class."},{"startTime":140.554,"endTime":141.244,"body":"Well, that's great."},{"startTime":141.255,"endTime":142.435,"body":"That's a great experience."},{"startTime":142.454,"endTime":144.415,"body":"It wasn't as pleasant for me."},{"startTime":144.605,"endTime":150.065,"body":"Um, in high school, but was there"},{"startTime":144.605,"endTime":150.065,"body":"a specific style that you liked or,"},{"startTime":150.374,"endTime":151.624,"body":"you know, in general, like what?"},{"startTime":152.535,"endTime":155.955,"body":"I really like the give and"},{"startTime":152.535,"endTime":155.955,"body":"take of questions and answers."},{"startTime":156.214,"endTime":157.945,"body":"I don't like hiding the ball."},{"startTime":157.965,"endTime":158.905,"body":"Don't get me wrong."},{"startTime":158.925,"endTime":162.485,"body":"But, but I, I, I'm fascinated by."},{"startTime":162.964,"endTime":169.494,"body":"Teachers and I aspire to be the type"},{"startTime":162.964,"endTime":169.494,"body":"of teacher that really wonder about"},{"startTime":170.105,"endTime":175.315,"body":"the policies that underline the laws"},{"startTime":170.105,"endTime":175.315,"body":"and I don't like just teaching the law."},{"startTime":175.355,"endTime":180.644,"body":"I like talking about what is driving"},{"startTime":175.355,"endTime":180.644,"body":"the policy makers who have made"},{"startTime":180.654,"endTime":184.724,"body":"decisions behind the laws or the"},{"startTime":180.654,"endTime":184.724,"body":"judges that have interpreted the law."},{"startTime":184.724,"endTime":184.784,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":185.11,"endTime":188.589,"body":"The laws and so, um, I don't"},{"startTime":185.11,"endTime":188.589,"body":"always have the answers."},{"startTime":188.869,"endTime":193.69,"body":"And so I'm very interested in knowing what"},{"startTime":188.869,"endTime":193.69,"body":"the students think might be going through"},{"startTime":193.69,"endTime":198.4,"body":"the minds of policymakers and judges and"},{"startTime":193.69,"endTime":198.4,"body":"how they might look at it differently"},{"startTime":198.69,"endTime":200.61,"body":"or with a different kind of view."},{"startTime":200.9,"endTime":208.109,"body":"And, um, and so I really love"},{"startTime":200.9,"endTime":208.109,"body":"that kind of back and forth and."},{"startTime":208.62,"endTime":211.57,"body":"I, I hope the students learn from"},{"startTime":208.62,"endTime":211.57,"body":"me because I learn a lot from them."},{"startTime":212.39,"endTime":215.81,"body":"Yeah, you know, that's a great"},{"startTime":212.39,"endTime":215.81,"body":"approach because in the end, you"},{"startTime":215.81,"endTime":220.95,"body":"know, as we get older and older,"},{"startTime":215.81,"endTime":220.95,"body":"we're also more further removed from"},{"startTime":221.0,"endTime":222.62,"body":"what the youth is going through."},{"startTime":222.78,"endTime":225.779,"body":"When you're in law school, you're"},{"startTime":222.78,"endTime":225.779,"body":"like, Oh, I know what's happening."},{"startTime":225.799,"endTime":229.579,"body":"But the older we get, the harder"},{"startTime":225.799,"endTime":229.579,"body":"it is to know what, what are they"},{"startTime":229.62,"endTime":232.7,"body":"thinking, what, you know, and, and"},{"startTime":229.62,"endTime":232.7,"body":"practically speaking, what is happening"},{"startTime":232.7,"endTime":234.85,"body":"in their world and their perspective."},{"startTime":234.88,"endTime":235.61,"body":"So that's a great."},{"startTime":235.93,"endTime":237.79,"body":"Yeah, no, I'll be honest with you."},{"startTime":237.8,"endTime":241.659,"body":"The question that I hate the most"},{"startTime":237.8,"endTime":241.659,"body":"is, are you thinking of retirement?"},{"startTime":242.38,"endTime":248.309,"body":"Oh, no, because, uh, the truth"},{"startTime":242.38,"endTime":248.309,"body":"is that I get so much energy"},{"startTime":248.88,"endTime":251.489,"body":"from my students and, um."},{"startTime":252.075,"endTime":259.135,"body":"And I learned everything from social media"},{"startTime":252.075,"endTime":259.135,"body":"issues to what's happening in music and"},{"startTime":259.575,"endTime":267.344,"body":"restaurants and, uh, just society that,"},{"startTime":259.575,"endTime":267.344,"body":"uh, I, it gives me a lot of energy and"},{"startTime":267.344,"endTime":269.445,"body":"I can't see myself doing anything else."},{"startTime":270.039,"endTime":271.12,"body":"Yeah, yeah, totally."},{"startTime":271.13,"endTime":271.46,"body":"Don't worry."},{"startTime":271.46,"endTime":272.35,"body":"I won't ask you that."},{"startTime":274.609,"endTime":276.81,"body":"And then what drew you to immigration law?"},{"startTime":277.929,"endTime":285.509,"body":"Well, there's actually, uh, not a romantic"},{"startTime":277.929,"endTime":285.509,"body":"notion, although I could make one up and"},{"startTime":285.509,"endTime":289.49,"body":"say, you know, my immigrant, my parents"},{"startTime":285.509,"endTime":289.49,"body":"were immigrants and they were both housed"},{"startTime":289.64,"endTime":294.95,"body":"at Angel Island, detained at Angel Island,"},{"startTime":289.64,"endTime":294.95,"body":"um, when they came to the United States."},{"startTime":295.75,"endTime":302.07,"body":"Uh, you know, that could be the impetus,"},{"startTime":295.75,"endTime":302.07,"body":"but the truth is that I was, um, I"},{"startTime":302.07,"endTime":307.36,"body":"was very interested in practicing, uh,"},{"startTime":302.07,"endTime":307.36,"body":"legal services law, community law, when"},{"startTime":307.36,"endTime":311.529,"body":"I graduated, and I had volunteered at"},{"startTime":307.36,"endTime":311.529,"body":"a legal aid office in San Francisco,"},{"startTime":311.53,"endTime":316.649,"body":"Chinatown during law school, and I was"},{"startTime":311.53,"endTime":316.649,"body":"really very interested in low income"},{"startTime":316.649,"endTime":322.959,"body":"housing and tenant advocacy, because"},{"startTime":316.649,"endTime":322.959,"body":"that's what I did as a law student, but"},{"startTime":322.959,"endTime":328.674,"body":"when I graduated, there was only one"},{"startTime":322.959,"endTime":328.674,"body":"opening, and At that law office and it"},{"startTime":328.674,"endTime":333.974,"body":"was the immigration job and and that"},{"startTime":328.674,"endTime":333.974,"body":"attorney was moving on into private"},{"startTime":333.974,"endTime":337.965,"body":"practice and and they offered me the job,"},{"startTime":333.974,"endTime":337.965,"body":"even though I didn't have any immigration"},{"startTime":337.965,"endTime":341.104,"body":"experience and I kind of came to love it."},{"startTime":341.144,"endTime":343.924,"body":"And it's been very rewarding."},{"startTime":344.544,"endTime":349.544,"body":"But that's the honest answer to what"},{"startTime":344.544,"endTime":349.544,"body":"how I fell into immigration law."},{"startTime":349.804,"endTime":351.454,"body":"It was a job that was available."},{"startTime":351.814,"endTime":354.924,"body":"Yeah, you know, but it's"},{"startTime":351.814,"endTime":354.924,"body":"also related, right?"},{"startTime":354.924,"endTime":358.765,"body":"It's not independent from what"},{"startTime":354.924,"endTime":358.765,"body":"you were interested in to a lot."},{"startTime":358.914,"endTime":362.254,"body":"And that is why your book as well,"},{"startTime":358.914,"endTime":362.254,"body":"just in terms of racial justice,"},{"startTime":362.254,"endTime":366.234,"body":"discrimination, you know, any"},{"startTime":362.254,"endTime":366.234,"body":"qualities all related to immigration."},{"startTime":366.234,"endTime":369.215,"body":"So at least you're doing something"},{"startTime":366.234,"endTime":369.215,"body":"wasn't completely opposite."},{"startTime":369.945,"endTime":375.775,"body":"Yeah, and I, you know, San Francisco"},{"startTime":369.945,"endTime":375.775,"body":"Chinatown back then in the 70s, uh,"},{"startTime":376.135,"endTime":381.365,"body":"when I got out of law school, it"},{"startTime":376.135,"endTime":381.365,"body":"was vibrant, it still is, and very"},{"startTime":381.365,"endTime":388.484,"body":"complex and nuanced, and the community"},{"startTime":381.365,"endTime":388.484,"body":"based organizations are vital to the"},{"startTime":388.484,"endTime":392.525,"body":"community, and it's constantly newcomers."},{"startTime":393.08,"endTime":396.97,"body":"Coming in and moving out into"},{"startTime":393.08,"endTime":396.97,"body":"different parts of San Francisco."},{"startTime":397.47,"endTime":401.049,"body":"Uh, but we were right in the heart"},{"startTime":397.47,"endTime":401.049,"body":"of Chinatown and, and you're right."},{"startTime":401.09,"endTime":402.049,"body":"It was all related."},{"startTime":402.35,"endTime":407.419,"body":"All their, all their legal problems"},{"startTime":402.35,"endTime":407.419,"body":"were related because there were"},{"startTime":407.449,"endTime":413.929,"body":"immigrants at core who had tenant"},{"startTime":407.449,"endTime":413.929,"body":"problems or consumer problems or"},{"startTime":414.349,"endTime":418.33,"body":"public, uh, uh, public welfare issues."},{"startTime":419.82,"endTime":422.07,"body":"And so, but you're right at"},{"startTime":419.82,"endTime":422.07,"body":"core, they were all non citizens."},{"startTime":422.615,"endTime":422.965,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":423.135,"endTime":423.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":423.755,"endTime":427.695,"body":"So then you were practicing for,"},{"startTime":423.755,"endTime":427.695,"body":"for a little bit doing that and"},{"startTime":427.695,"endTime":429.085,"body":"then, uh, and then what happened?"},{"startTime":429.755,"endTime":432.514,"body":"Well, I did that for about five years."},{"startTime":432.515,"endTime":438.875,"body":"And during that time from 1974 to"},{"startTime":432.515,"endTime":438.875,"body":"1979, um, they discovered that I"},{"startTime":438.875,"endTime":440.265,"body":"also speak a little bit of Spanish."},{"startTime":440.265,"endTime":442.755,"body":"So I speak a little bit"},{"startTime":440.265,"endTime":442.755,"body":"of Cantonese and Spanish."},{"startTime":443.115,"endTime":446.755,"body":"I grew up in Arizona and predominantly"},{"startTime":443.115,"endTime":446.755,"body":"in Mexican American town."},{"startTime":447.285,"endTime":454.79,"body":"And, um, and, and so because of"},{"startTime":447.285,"endTime":454.79,"body":"that, I began representing Spanish"},{"startTime":454.79,"endTime":460.52,"body":"speaking clients, primarily Mexicans"},{"startTime":454.79,"endTime":460.52,"body":"in the, uh, in what was called a"},{"startTime":460.52,"endTime":462.2,"body":"mission district of San Francisco."},{"startTime":462.71,"endTime":467.87,"body":"And, and so, uh, an immigration"},{"startTime":462.71,"endTime":467.87,"body":"lawyer back then I was the only legal"},{"startTime":467.879,"endTime":471.85,"body":"services, immigration attorney in"},{"startTime":467.879,"endTime":471.85,"body":"Northern California at that time."},{"startTime":472.45,"endTime":473.22,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":473.77,"endTime":478.07,"body":"I represented people that were"},{"startTime":473.77,"endTime":478.07,"body":"being deported, uh, who are"},{"startTime":478.08,"endTime":480.71,"body":"from, uh, the Spanish speaking."},{"startTime":481.325,"endTime":486.125,"body":"Part of time, primarily, uh, that was"},{"startTime":481.325,"endTime":486.125,"body":"my primarily deportation caseload was"},{"startTime":486.135,"endTime":487.735,"body":"Mexicans that were being deported."},{"startTime":488.265,"endTime":492.864,"body":"And then I would do the visa work"},{"startTime":488.265,"endTime":492.864,"body":"primarily for Chinese that were trying"},{"startTime":492.865,"endTime":497.325,"body":"to be reunited with their relatives"},{"startTime":492.865,"endTime":497.325,"body":"from mainland, but also from Hong Kong"},{"startTime":497.725,"endTime":502.525,"body":"and, uh, but there was a mixture also,"},{"startTime":497.725,"endTime":502.525,"body":"obviously, there was some visa work for"},{"startTime":502.525,"endTime":505.475,"body":"Mexicans and there were deportation cases."},{"startTime":505.85,"endTime":511.06,"body":"For the Chinese, principally"},{"startTime":505.85,"endTime":511.06,"body":"Chinese gang members, and so I"},{"startTime":511.06,"endTime":514.25,"body":"got thrown into that very quickly."},{"startTime":514.33,"endTime":519.799,"body":"And, um, but I always remember that I"},{"startTime":514.33,"endTime":519.799,"body":"wanted to teach and so I was offered"},{"startTime":519.87,"endTime":525.629,"body":"evening teaching jobs at University of"},{"startTime":519.87,"endTime":525.629,"body":"San Francisco and also an old school back"},{"startTime":525.629,"endTime":527.42,"body":"then that's called New College of the Law."},{"startTime":527.42,"endTime":532.515,"body":"And so I began teaching part"},{"startTime":527.42,"endTime":532.515,"body":"time, um, um, within a year"},{"startTime":532.665,"endTime":534.175,"body":"of graduating from law school."},{"startTime":534.515,"endTime":539.545,"body":"And then in 1979, I was offered a"},{"startTime":534.515,"endTime":539.545,"body":"full time teaching job at Golden"},{"startTime":539.545,"endTime":544.674,"body":"Gate University, um, where I"},{"startTime":539.545,"endTime":544.674,"body":"started the very first law school"},{"startTime":544.694,"endTime":546.675,"body":"immigration clinic in the country."},{"startTime":547.034,"endTime":548.924,"body":"And that was, that was at Golden Gate."},{"startTime":549.415,"endTime":550.365,"body":"Oh, my goodness."},{"startTime":550.395,"endTime":551.475,"body":"That's amazing."},{"startTime":552.454,"endTime":556.025,"body":"Well, looking back on it, it"},{"startTime":552.454,"endTime":556.025,"body":"was it's not amazing to me."},{"startTime":556.185,"endTime":557.545,"body":"It's just it was a need."},{"startTime":558.755,"endTime":562.375,"body":"And the students were quite"},{"startTime":558.755,"endTime":562.375,"body":"interested in immigration."},{"startTime":563.034,"endTime":564.605,"body":"Immigration was not taught."},{"startTime":565.22,"endTime":567.23,"body":"In many law schools at that time."},{"startTime":567.62,"endTime":572.54,"body":"And, uh, it was taught at Berkeley,"},{"startTime":567.62,"endTime":572.54,"body":"uh, by somebody who became a good"},{"startTime":572.54,"endTime":574.06,"body":"friend of mine, he was a practitioner."},{"startTime":574.409,"endTime":580.05,"body":"Um, and I, I, I taught the second"},{"startTime":574.409,"endTime":580.05,"body":"law school class on immigration in"},{"startTime":580.05,"endTime":583.149,"body":"the, in Northern California at USF."},{"startTime":583.149,"endTime":584.64,"body":"And then I taught her at New College."},{"startTime":584.66,"endTime":587.92,"body":"Um, and then I brought"},{"startTime":584.66,"endTime":587.92,"body":"it to, to Golden Gate."},{"startTime":589.75,"endTime":590.86,"body":"That's really impressive."},{"startTime":591.43,"endTime":595.35,"body":"Um, and I, I love your"},{"startTime":591.43,"endTime":595.35,"body":"perspective because."},{"startTime":595.819,"endTime":600.97,"body":"You've practiced immigration law"},{"startTime":595.819,"endTime":600.97,"body":"for years before teaching and having"},{"startTime":600.98,"endTime":603.74,"body":"that, that experience is so helpful."},{"startTime":603.74,"endTime":606.4,"body":"You know, I remember my law"},{"startTime":603.74,"endTime":606.4,"body":"school experiences where."},{"startTime":607.13,"endTime":612.28,"body":"It just seemed some of the teachers,"},{"startTime":607.13,"endTime":612.28,"body":"the professors to me did not practice,"},{"startTime":612.31,"endTime":615.85,"body":"I don't even know if they did practice"},{"startTime":612.31,"endTime":615.85,"body":"law because the way they would talk, it"},{"startTime":615.85,"endTime":619.639,"body":"didn't seem like they did and they were"},{"startTime":615.85,"endTime":619.639,"body":"just publishing, um, it's talking about"},{"startTime":619.64,"endTime":625.319,"body":"the case law, but there was no, like, real"},{"startTime":619.64,"endTime":625.319,"body":"life experiences that I can relate to."},{"startTime":626.04,"endTime":630.419,"body":"And so I think having you, you"},{"startTime":626.04,"endTime":630.419,"body":"know, teach immigration with."},{"startTime":630.81,"endTime":634.649,"body":"With the perspective of having that"},{"startTime":630.81,"endTime":634.649,"body":"experience being on the ground and"},{"startTime":634.649,"endTime":639.639,"body":"also with, you know, different types"},{"startTime":634.649,"endTime":639.639,"body":"of people, um, is, is so helpful."},{"startTime":639.639,"endTime":643.609,"body":"Do you find that that was really important"},{"startTime":639.639,"endTime":643.609,"body":"for, for you to have like that experience?"},{"startTime":644.389,"endTime":652.409,"body":"Yeah, I, I don't, um, I, I, I agree"},{"startTime":644.389,"endTime":652.409,"body":"with you 100 percent that it helps"},{"startTime":652.509,"endTime":657.939,"body":"teaching law if you've had experience"},{"startTime":652.509,"endTime":657.939,"body":"and not all law professors have had."},{"startTime":658.27,"endTime":659.47,"body":"Practical experience."},{"startTime":659.53,"endTime":664.33,"body":"Um, but I, I have the ability to bring"},{"startTime":659.53,"endTime":664.33,"body":"that to the classroom and every school"},{"startTime":664.33,"endTime":668.719,"body":"that I've taught at I've been involved"},{"startTime":664.33,"endTime":668.719,"body":"in clinical programs, Golden Gate, and"},{"startTime":668.719,"endTime":675.02,"body":"I was hired at Stanford specifically"},{"startTime":668.719,"endTime":675.02,"body":"to start an immigration clinic in 1985."},{"startTime":675.06,"endTime":677.449,"body":"And so I ran an immigration clinic there."},{"startTime":677.68,"endTime":680.35,"body":"And then I was there"},{"startTime":677.68,"endTime":680.35,"body":"for 12 years and Davis."},{"startTime":680.785,"endTime":684.755,"body":"Hired me to continue their"},{"startTime":680.785,"endTime":684.755,"body":"clinical program, which"},{"startTime":684.755,"endTime":686.705,"body":"included an immigration clinic."},{"startTime":686.705,"endTime":691.574,"body":"And so again, I, I, I bring those"},{"startTime":686.705,"endTime":691.574,"body":"experiences to the classroom because"},{"startTime":691.654,"endTime":695.935,"body":"the students want to hear that"},{"startTime":691.654,"endTime":695.935,"body":"and they, they want to do that."},{"startTime":695.984,"endTime":703.195,"body":"And, and so, um, it's definitely,"},{"startTime":695.984,"endTime":703.195,"body":"um, helpful to me in the classroom."},{"startTime":703.725,"endTime":708.294,"body":"And that's what I ended up writing"},{"startTime":703.725,"endTime":708.294,"body":"about mostly is my experiences is."},{"startTime":708.715,"endTime":714.975,"body":"And what I, what I've seen and the"},{"startTime":708.715,"endTime":714.975,"body":"injustices and so pretty much everything"},{"startTime":714.985,"endTime":720.715,"body":"that I've written, even that's"},{"startTime":714.985,"endTime":720.715,"body":"classified as, as a law scholarship,"},{"startTime":721.385,"endTime":723.975,"body":"it's usually informed by my experiences."},{"startTime":724.045,"endTime":724.334,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":724.415,"endTime":725.345,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":725.714,"endTime":728.484,"body":"And and then with these"},{"startTime":725.714,"endTime":728.484,"body":"clinics, like, what are they?"},{"startTime":728.524,"endTime":729.254,"body":"What are you?"},{"startTime":729.385,"endTime":731.065,"body":"They the students doing in these clinics?"},{"startTime":731.065,"endTime":732.925,"body":"We give the most recent one you can get."},{"startTime":732.934,"endTime":737.795,"body":"Well, they they they're in deportation"},{"startTime":732.934,"endTime":737.795,"body":"proceedings representing clients."},{"startTime":737.814,"endTime":742.704,"body":"Um, our clients at the University of"},{"startTime":737.814,"endTime":742.704,"body":"San Francisco clinic are primarily."},{"startTime":742.955,"endTime":744.195,"body":"from Central America."},{"startTime":744.765,"endTime":748.825,"body":"I started that clinic in response"},{"startTime":744.765,"endTime":748.825,"body":"to the surge of unaccompanied minors"},{"startTime":748.855,"endTime":754.805,"body":"and, uh, and also many women fleeing"},{"startTime":748.855,"endTime":754.805,"body":"domestic violence from Central America."},{"startTime":754.865,"endTime":759.405,"body":"And so the students interview the clients,"},{"startTime":754.865,"endTime":759.405,"body":"they prepare the clients for their"},{"startTime":759.705,"endTime":762.194,"body":"deportation care cases, the students."},{"startTime":762.565,"endTime":768.715,"body":"Do the direct examination of the"},{"startTime":762.565,"endTime":768.715,"body":"clients, but it's, as you know, the law"},{"startTime":768.715,"endTime":772.205,"body":"school clinics, you have to be under"},{"startTime":768.715,"endTime":772.205,"body":"the supervision of a faculty member."},{"startTime":772.205,"endTime":779.424,"body":"And so, so I have a secret weapon"},{"startTime":772.205,"endTime":779.424,"body":"and a very, very, uh, able woman,"},{"startTime":779.424,"endTime":784.245,"body":"Jacqueline Brown, who's probably the"},{"startTime":779.424,"endTime":784.245,"body":"best asylum lawyer that I've ever met."},{"startTime":784.62,"endTime":788.829,"body":"And so she supervises all"},{"startTime":784.62,"endTime":788.829,"body":"the students who go to court."},{"startTime":789.209,"endTime":792.86,"body":"Um, and I, I help a little bit"},{"startTime":789.209,"endTime":792.86,"body":"with that, but I've been able to"},{"startTime":792.86,"endTime":795.04,"body":"turn most of that over to somebody."},{"startTime":795.04,"endTime":799.059,"body":"So, um, part of my secret to my"},{"startTime":795.04,"endTime":799.059,"body":"success, part of the secret to my"},{"startTime":799.059,"endTime":804.959,"body":"success in the clinical world is hiring"},{"startTime":799.059,"endTime":804.959,"body":"good people and leaving them alone."},{"startTime":805.019,"endTime":805.439,"body":"And then."},{"startTime":805.925,"endTime":809.305,"body":"Then I get all the credit that they,"},{"startTime":805.925,"endTime":809.305,"body":"for all the great work that they do."},{"startTime":811.115,"endTime":813.515,"body":"Yeah, no, Jacqueline Brown sounds amazing."},{"startTime":813.515,"endTime":815.165,"body":"I'd love to interview her one day."},{"startTime":815.845,"endTime":820.674,"body":"You know, asylum, deportation, it"},{"startTime":815.845,"endTime":820.674,"body":"is, it is hard, and it is hard."},{"startTime":821.005,"endTime":824.249,"body":"You know, I used to do more"},{"startTime":821.005,"endTime":824.249,"body":"of that work, um, back in the."},{"startTime":825.099,"endTime":826.139,"body":"Early 2000s."},{"startTime":826.609,"endTime":831.77,"body":"And it was, you know, very"},{"startTime":826.609,"endTime":831.77,"body":"emotionally, uh, draining."},{"startTime":831.819,"endTime":836.43,"body":"It was to, to do it all the"},{"startTime":831.819,"endTime":836.43,"body":"time was, was difficult for me."},{"startTime":836.43,"endTime":838.079,"body":"Do you find any of that?"},{"startTime":838.13,"endTime":840.849,"body":"Like, how do you, how do"},{"startTime":838.13,"endTime":840.849,"body":"you deal with any of that?"},{"startTime":841.145,"endTime":847.195,"body":"If, if you absolutely, we have to make"},{"startTime":841.145,"endTime":847.195,"body":"sure that we take care of ourselves"},{"startTime":847.995,"endTime":852.525,"body":"because this is trauma informed lawyering,"},{"startTime":847.995,"endTime":852.525,"body":"because you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":853.755,"endTime":859.055,"body":"Our clients, the children, and the adults"},{"startTime":853.755,"endTime":859.055,"body":"have gone through hell, the violence that"},{"startTime":859.055,"endTime":863.885,"body":"they've experienced the worst things you"},{"startTime":859.055,"endTime":863.885,"body":"can imagine have happened to our clients."},{"startTime":863.915,"endTime":868.135,"body":"Um, and I, the tension."},{"startTime":868.62,"endTime":871.91,"body":"is something that stays"},{"startTime":868.62,"endTime":871.91,"body":"with me in particular."},{"startTime":872.07,"endTime":876.64,"body":"I mean, as a matter of fact, next week,"},{"startTime":872.07,"endTime":876.64,"body":"uh, the clinic, we're volunteering for a"},{"startTime":876.64,"endTime":879.03,"body":"week at the detention centers in Arizona."},{"startTime":879.36,"endTime":886.679,"body":"But I, I, I write about a particular"},{"startTime":879.36,"endTime":886.679,"body":"experience that I have had in the book in"},{"startTime":886.689,"endTime":892.835,"body":"interviewing Several dozen Children that"},{"startTime":886.689,"endTime":892.835,"body":"were detained who are separated from their"},{"startTime":892.835,"endTime":899.645,"body":"families, uh, at a border patrol station"},{"startTime":892.835,"endTime":899.645,"body":"in Texas right before the pandemic."},{"startTime":899.914,"endTime":904.505,"body":"Um, and it was during the Trump"},{"startTime":899.914,"endTime":904.505,"body":"administration, and, uh, he had stopped"},{"startTime":904.505,"endTime":907.075,"body":"separating Children from their parents."},{"startTime":907.114,"endTime":908.955,"body":"By then it was the summer of 2019."},{"startTime":909.655,"endTime":915.335,"body":"But he continued separating Children"},{"startTime":909.655,"endTime":915.335,"body":"if they came with not their parent, if"},{"startTime":915.335,"endTime":919.245,"body":"they came with their aunt or uncle or"},{"startTime":915.335,"endTime":919.245,"body":"grandparent, and there was a group of"},{"startTime":919.245,"endTime":921.525,"body":"us that interviewed over 200 Children."},{"startTime":921.525,"endTime":924.655,"body":"I interviewed about 20."},{"startTime":925.005,"endTime":932.175,"body":"Um, and it still haunts me and I'm"},{"startTime":925.005,"endTime":932.175,"body":"not saying that to be dramatic."},{"startTime":932.435,"endTime":937.155,"body":"I think about them all the time"},{"startTime":932.435,"endTime":937.155,"body":"because they, many were sick."},{"startTime":937.215,"endTime":937.975,"body":"They had the flu."},{"startTime":937.995,"endTime":943.865,"body":"Then it was before COVID, uh, they were"},{"startTime":937.995,"endTime":943.865,"body":"lonely, they were sad, uh, they were"},{"startTime":943.875,"endTime":946.755,"body":"traumatized that they were malnourished."},{"startTime":947.224,"endTime":955.055,"body":"And, um, and I kept in contact with them"},{"startTime":947.224,"endTime":955.055,"body":"and tried to contact their relatives for"},{"startTime":955.055,"endTime":960.345,"body":"them and thank goodness the ones that"},{"startTime":955.055,"endTime":960.345,"body":"I interviewed, they all landed safely"},{"startTime":960.345,"endTime":964.305,"body":"in terms of they were reunited with"},{"startTime":960.345,"endTime":964.305,"body":"family members in the United States,"},{"startTime":964.614,"endTime":966.275,"body":"but that's not true of all of them."},{"startTime":966.415,"endTime":970.935,"body":"And the youngest person that we"},{"startTime":966.415,"endTime":970.935,"body":"interviewed that had been separated."},{"startTime":971.254,"endTime":974.165,"body":"You're going to say this is"},{"startTime":971.254,"endTime":974.165,"body":"impossible, but the youngest person"},{"startTime":974.224,"endTime":975.714,"body":"we interviewed was two years old."},{"startTime":976.345,"endTime":977.035,"body":"That was separate."},{"startTime":977.655,"endTime":979.745,"body":"I believe it."},{"startTime":979.745,"endTime":986.435,"body":"It's just, uh, you come out of that"},{"startTime":979.745,"endTime":986.435,"body":"saying, how can the United States do this?"},{"startTime":986.474,"endTime":989.235,"body":"And, um, but it's true."},{"startTime":989.314,"endTime":993.314,"body":"And this continues, even under"},{"startTime":989.314,"endTime":993.314,"body":"the Biden administration."},{"startTime":993.544,"endTime":993.794,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":993.824,"endTime":995.824,"body":"This kind of separation still continues."},{"startTime":996.535,"endTime":996.944,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":997.305,"endTime":999.055,"body":"Yes, it is so sad."},{"startTime":999.055,"endTime":1000.775,"body":"They're still reunite."},{"startTime":1000.775,"endTime":1003.915,"body":"I mean, from the zero tolerance policy"},{"startTime":1000.775,"endTime":1003.915,"body":"that Trump created, they're still"},{"startTime":1003.915,"endTime":1006.084,"body":"trying to reunite those families."},{"startTime":1006.165,"endTime":1007.925,"body":"People are still being separated."},{"startTime":1008.425,"endTime":1014.685,"body":"Um, It is almost unfathomable that we"},{"startTime":1008.425,"endTime":1014.685,"body":"do this, you know, that the country"},{"startTime":1014.705,"endTime":1018.304,"body":"does this, I feel like in the future,"},{"startTime":1014.705,"endTime":1018.304,"body":"we're going to look back and say, wow,"},{"startTime":1018.305,"endTime":1022.004,"body":"that was kind of like the way we looked"},{"startTime":1018.305,"endTime":1022.004,"body":"at internment camps or other types"},{"startTime":1022.005,"endTime":1025.344,"body":"of horrible things that we've done,"},{"startTime":1022.005,"endTime":1025.344,"body":"like, how could we have done this?"},{"startTime":1025.925,"endTime":1028.254,"body":"Um, it's so real."},{"startTime":1028.275,"endTime":1030.274,"body":"It's, it's, it's, it's so hard."},{"startTime":1031.065,"endTime":1032.685,"body":"To interview them individually."},{"startTime":1033.125,"endTime":1034.275,"body":"I can't even do that."},{"startTime":1034.285,"endTime":1038.775,"body":"Like, if you asked me to do that, I"},{"startTime":1034.285,"endTime":1038.775,"body":"would, I would just be like a mess."},{"startTime":1038.905,"endTime":1043.995,"body":"Like, I can't, you know, when zero"},{"startTime":1038.905,"endTime":1043.995,"body":"tolerance policy happened, my son was"},{"startTime":1044.085,"endTime":1048.895,"body":"4 and I was just like, I can't even"},{"startTime":1044.085,"endTime":1048.895,"body":"imagine him being separated from us."},{"startTime":1049.465,"endTime":1054.445,"body":"Um, and, and so I've started to do"},{"startTime":1049.465,"endTime":1054.445,"body":"a lot of, um, work at the border as"},{"startTime":1054.445,"endTime":1056.415,"body":"well at that time, but it just, it."},{"startTime":1057.205,"endTime":1059.635,"body":"It hasn't been much that much better."},{"startTime":1060.165,"endTime":1061.805,"body":"Um, yeah, good for you."},{"startTime":1062.365,"endTime":1062.905,"body":"Oh, thank you."},{"startTime":1063.485,"endTime":1064.895,"body":"But I mean, good for you."},{"startTime":1064.915,"endTime":1065.645,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":1065.685,"endTime":1069.425,"body":"I mean, I can't believe"},{"startTime":1065.685,"endTime":1069.425,"body":"you all interviewed 200."},{"startTime":1069.425,"endTime":1073.094,"body":"That's, that's amazing that you had"},{"startTime":1069.425,"endTime":1073.094,"body":"access to them and able to do that."},{"startTime":1073.775,"endTime":1075.855,"body":"Um, let's go into your book a little bit."},{"startTime":1076.145,"endTime":1077.715,"body":"Um, let in."},{"startTime":1077.715,"endTime":1080.445,"body":"Why did you write this book"},{"startTime":1077.715,"endTime":1080.445,"body":"humanizing immigration?"},{"startTime":1080.455,"endTime":1081.085,"body":"Why'd you write this?"},{"startTime":1081.7,"endTime":1085.06,"body":"Well, I've been doing this"},{"startTime":1081.7,"endTime":1085.06,"body":"work for almost 50 years now."},{"startTime":1085.13,"endTime":1091.33,"body":"I started, uh, around 1974,"},{"startTime":1085.13,"endTime":1091.33,"body":"and, uh, it's been frustrating."},{"startTime":1091.79,"endTime":1097.729,"body":"The, uh, from the detention of children"},{"startTime":1091.79,"endTime":1097.729,"body":"that I've seen, but also the deportation"},{"startTime":1097.729,"endTime":1103.06,"body":"of people that I just don't think"},{"startTime":1097.729,"endTime":1103.06,"body":"it's right to deport certain people."},{"startTime":1103.13,"endTime":1105.41,"body":"Um, you know, for"},{"startTime":1103.13,"endTime":1105.41,"body":"example, I write about..."},{"startTime":1106.665,"endTime":1109.475,"body":"A gentleman who came to me very late."},{"startTime":1109.504,"endTime":1114.314,"body":"He had already lost his appeals and I was"},{"startTime":1109.504,"endTime":1114.314,"body":"trying to get prosecutorial discretion."},{"startTime":1115.215,"endTime":1118.845,"body":"Let the government stay argue that they"},{"startTime":1115.215,"endTime":1118.845,"body":"should let him stay here anyway under"},{"startTime":1118.845,"endTime":1121.954,"body":"a policy that Obama had instituted."},{"startTime":1122.444,"endTime":1127.135,"body":"And it is a man had lived"},{"startTime":1122.444,"endTime":1127.135,"body":"here for 25 years and had."},{"startTime":1127.79,"endTime":1132.06,"body":"Two citizen Children, one who was"},{"startTime":1127.79,"endTime":1132.06,"body":"going to graduate from Berkeley"},{"startTime":1132.37,"endTime":1137.66,"body":"and another who was 14 years old,"},{"startTime":1132.37,"endTime":1137.66,"body":"who was young and in high school."},{"startTime":1138.14,"endTime":1140.109,"body":"He never had any criminal problems."},{"startTime":1140.56,"endTime":1142.35,"body":"He was a soccer coach."},{"startTime":1142.68,"endTime":1146.63,"body":"He had a second part"},{"startTime":1142.68,"endTime":1146.63,"body":"time job and That's it."},{"startTime":1146.66,"endTime":1151.73,"body":"I mean, the truth is he's not special"},{"startTime":1146.66,"endTime":1151.73,"body":"in the sense that there are many,"},{"startTime":1151.73,"endTime":1156.719,"body":"many people like him, um, who are"},{"startTime":1151.73,"endTime":1156.719,"body":"just here to put food on their table."},{"startTime":1156.719,"endTime":1157.22,"body":"It's true."},{"startTime":1157.23,"endTime":1158.26,"body":"He's undocumented."},{"startTime":1158.55,"endTime":1159.03,"body":"It's true."},{"startTime":1159.03,"endTime":1165.09,"body":"He came without papers and he was working"},{"startTime":1159.03,"endTime":1165.09,"body":"at at the Hilton Hotel and he was at the"},{"startTime":1165.09,"endTime":1169.85,"body":"wrong place at the wrong time and they"},{"startTime":1165.09,"endTime":1169.85,"body":"arrested him and but they wouldn't let him"},{"startTime":1169.909,"endTime":1172.98,"body":"stay here under prosecutorial discretion."},{"startTime":1173.48,"endTime":1174.629,"body":"And it's, you know, I."},{"startTime":1175.19,"endTime":1179.16,"body":"Went to his house the night"},{"startTime":1175.19,"endTime":1179.16,"body":"that he reported for deportation"},{"startTime":1179.16,"endTime":1180.83,"body":"and said goodbye to him."},{"startTime":1180.9,"endTime":1185.02,"body":"Um, and it's been more than 10 years now."},{"startTime":1185.35,"endTime":1189.73,"body":"And so he actually can now immigrate,"},{"startTime":1185.35,"endTime":1189.73,"body":"but he's had to be separated."},{"startTime":1189.959,"endTime":1191.07,"body":"There's a 10 year bar."},{"startTime":1191.28,"endTime":1193.259,"body":"He had to be separated for 10 years."},{"startTime":1193.26,"endTime":1194.6,"body":"And and so."},{"startTime":1195.13,"endTime":1197.59,"body":"Um, and I'm still in"},{"startTime":1195.13,"endTime":1197.59,"body":"touch with that daughter."},{"startTime":1197.7,"endTime":1200.97,"body":"She actually became a law student"},{"startTime":1197.7,"endTime":1200.97,"body":"of mine, and now she's, she's"},{"startTime":1200.98,"endTime":1202.41,"body":"practicing employment law."},{"startTime":1202.41,"endTime":1205.209,"body":"She's not practicing immigration"},{"startTime":1202.41,"endTime":1205.209,"body":"law, but she's practicing law."},{"startTime":1205.73,"endTime":1206.58,"body":"She's like, it's too hard."},{"startTime":1206.97,"endTime":1209.579,"body":"Yeah, but I'll be honest with you."},{"startTime":1209.579,"endTime":1213.81,"body":"I, I also think that there are certain"},{"startTime":1209.579,"endTime":1213.81,"body":"people that have been convicted of crimes."},{"startTime":1214.25,"endTime":1218.3,"body":"That should not have been deported"},{"startTime":1214.25,"endTime":1218.3,"body":"and I startle people when I say"},{"startTime":1218.3,"endTime":1226.3,"body":"that, and, um, I, I had, uh, friendly"},{"startTime":1218.3,"endTime":1226.3,"body":"conversations with Senator Feinstein."},{"startTime":1226.3,"endTime":1230.46,"body":"I mean, that's 1 of my recollections of"},{"startTime":1226.3,"endTime":1230.46,"body":"her was that she just wouldn't go there."},{"startTime":1230.63,"endTime":1236.01,"body":"And when I had private conversations"},{"startTime":1230.63,"endTime":1236.01,"body":"with her to provide relief for people"},{"startTime":1236.01,"endTime":1238.42,"body":"who entered as refugees and immigrants."},{"startTime":1239.159,"endTime":1243.62,"body":"And then after a year, they make one"},{"startTime":1239.159,"endTime":1243.62,"body":"stupid mistake, um, and it might be"},{"startTime":1243.62,"endTime":1247.499,"body":"classified as an aggravated felony,"},{"startTime":1243.62,"endTime":1247.499,"body":"and they don't have a chance."},{"startTime":1247.499,"endTime":1248.82,"body":"It's zero tolerance."},{"startTime":1249.67,"endTime":1250.34,"body":"And they get deported."},{"startTime":1250.34,"endTime":1254.09,"body":"And so I've represented"},{"startTime":1250.34,"endTime":1254.09,"body":"Cambodians who came as refugees,"},{"startTime":1254.629,"endTime":1256.34,"body":"and then they get deported."},{"startTime":1257.62,"endTime":1262.949,"body":"And I contrast that with a law"},{"startTime":1257.62,"endTime":1262.949,"body":"that existed prior to 1996."},{"startTime":1262.95,"endTime":1264.95,"body":"Prior to 1996."},{"startTime":1265.385,"endTime":1271.705,"body":"I actually could apply for a waiver for"},{"startTime":1265.385,"endTime":1271.705,"body":"somebody who was a lawful immigrant or a"},{"startTime":1271.705,"endTime":1277.695,"body":"refugee, and they made one bad mistake,"},{"startTime":1271.705,"endTime":1277.695,"body":"and as I alluded to earlier, I had"},{"startTime":1277.695,"endTime":1285.275,"body":"represented some Chinese gang members,"},{"startTime":1277.695,"endTime":1285.275,"body":"um, and the, the vast, out of, I probably"},{"startTime":1285.275,"endTime":1295.83,"body":"represented 50, 60 people like that prior"},{"startTime":1285.275,"endTime":1295.83,"body":"to 1996, and one person recidivated, Of"},{"startTime":1295.84,"endTime":1303.159,"body":"all those that I got, that I got waivers"},{"startTime":1295.84,"endTime":1303.159,"body":"for, and one of them, I keep in touch"},{"startTime":1303.159,"endTime":1307.609,"body":"with him, you know, he had more than one"},{"startTime":1303.159,"endTime":1307.609,"body":"conviction, he had state and criminal"},{"startTime":1307.61,"endTime":1315.28,"body":"convictions, his name is John, and I see"},{"startTime":1307.61,"endTime":1315.28,"body":"him often, he became a mechanic for, he"},{"startTime":1315.29,"endTime":1320.429,"body":"went to a mechanic training program after"},{"startTime":1315.29,"endTime":1320.429,"body":"I got his release, and, and he became"},{"startTime":1320.429,"endTime":1325.774,"body":"a mechanic for the Muni, The public"},{"startTime":1320.429,"endTime":1325.774,"body":"transportation system in San Francisco,"},{"startTime":1326.205,"endTime":1327.905,"body":"and he retired a couple of years ago."},{"startTime":1327.905,"endTime":1333.715,"body":"He has two adult daughters, um, who"},{"startTime":1327.905,"endTime":1333.715,"body":"didn't know anything about his background."},{"startTime":1333.785,"endTime":1335.024,"body":"I still don't think they do."},{"startTime":1335.605,"endTime":1342.084,"body":"His wife knows about, but, you"},{"startTime":1335.605,"endTime":1342.084,"body":"know, I can give you 3, 4 other"},{"startTime":1342.254,"endTime":1344.385,"body":"dozens of people or the same thing."},{"startTime":1344.405,"endTime":1348.045,"body":"They all became productive and"},{"startTime":1344.405,"endTime":1348.045,"body":"they just need that 2nd chance."},{"startTime":1349.78,"endTime":1356.37,"body":"That's missing from our law that that kind"},{"startTime":1349.78,"endTime":1356.37,"body":"of showing some heart and understanding"},{"startTime":1356.41,"endTime":1358.53,"body":"that people can rehabilitate themselves."},{"startTime":1358.849,"endTime":1361.63,"body":"Yeah, no, I completely agree with"},{"startTime":1358.849,"endTime":1361.63,"body":"you and a lot of crimes that people"},{"startTime":1361.63,"endTime":1363.04,"body":"are convicted for drug crimes."},{"startTime":1363.659,"endTime":1367.78,"body":"Um, and, and they're, they get"},{"startTime":1363.659,"endTime":1367.78,"body":"deported, they deport veterans."},{"startTime":1368.25,"endTime":1368.46,"body":"U."},{"startTime":1368.46,"endTime":1368.5,"body":"S."},{"startTime":1368.58,"endTime":1370.46,"body":"government supports veterans as well."},{"startTime":1371.15,"endTime":1376.58,"body":"So we're, I mean, it's for"},{"startTime":1371.15,"endTime":1376.58,"body":"very minor crimes and it's,"},{"startTime":1376.6,"endTime":1379.52,"body":"it really is unbelievable."},{"startTime":1379.57,"endTime":1381.49,"body":"But yes, I completely agree with you."},{"startTime":1381.49,"endTime":1386.779,"body":"And I, I do feel that people need to"},{"startTime":1381.49,"endTime":1386.779,"body":"open their eyes a little bit more."},{"startTime":1387.04,"endTime":1389.1,"body":"Um, to, to that."},{"startTime":1390.0,"endTime":1396.709,"body":"So, so why did it take you this long to"},{"startTime":1390.0,"endTime":1396.709,"body":"actually publish this, this specific book?"},{"startTime":1396.97,"endTime":1401.099,"body":"Well, I, um, as you noted at"},{"startTime":1396.97,"endTime":1401.099,"body":"the beginning, I've written many"},{"startTime":1401.1,"endTime":1403.27,"body":"books and it's about different."},{"startTime":1404.304,"endTime":1410.594,"body":"Policies, um, like I've written about"},{"startTime":1404.304,"endTime":1410.594,"body":"NAFTA and how that affects Mexican"},{"startTime":1410.594,"endTime":1416.975,"body":"migration, and I've written about,"},{"startTime":1410.594,"endTime":1416.975,"body":"uh, uh, how we represent unaccompanied"},{"startTime":1416.975,"endTime":1422.834,"body":"minors and what special, uh, talents"},{"startTime":1416.975,"endTime":1422.834,"body":"you need to do that kind of thing, uh,"},{"startTime":1422.865,"endTime":1429.165,"body":"but I've never, I, I, I felt, those"},{"startTime":1422.865,"endTime":1429.165,"body":"are all very academic, Thank you."},{"startTime":1429.914,"endTime":1434.965,"body":"In flavor, and in an academic book,"},{"startTime":1429.914,"endTime":1434.965,"body":"because all those books were public by"},{"startTime":1434.985,"endTime":1440.414,"body":"academic press, Stanford Press, Cambridge"},{"startTime":1434.985,"endTime":1440.414,"body":"Press, NYU Press, but this is published"},{"startTime":1440.414,"endTime":1447.174,"body":"by a private publisher, Beacon Press,"},{"startTime":1440.414,"endTime":1447.174,"body":"and they invited me to be more personal."},{"startTime":1447.534,"endTime":1453.584,"body":"And so I felt the license to"},{"startTime":1447.534,"endTime":1453.584,"body":"actually express frustration."},{"startTime":1454.074,"endTime":1457.544,"body":"For example, express frustration"},{"startTime":1454.074,"endTime":1457.544,"body":"at some immigration judges."},{"startTime":1458.06,"endTime":1463.289,"body":"That I think are, you know,"},{"startTime":1458.06,"endTime":1463.289,"body":"they're just so heartless."},{"startTime":1464.71,"endTime":1468.62,"body":"Believe it or not, there's some"},{"startTime":1464.71,"endTime":1468.62,"body":"immigration judges who grant asylum"},{"startTime":1468.969,"endTime":1471.469,"body":"at the rate of one and two percent."},{"startTime":1471.55,"endTime":1471.889,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1472.11,"endTime":1474.689,"body":"And, you know, you can,"},{"startTime":1472.11,"endTime":1474.689,"body":"it's public information."},{"startTime":1474.699,"endTime":1475.87,"body":"You can go online."},{"startTime":1476.229,"endTime":1478.379,"body":"There's a website where you can"},{"startTime":1476.229,"endTime":1478.379,"body":"look at the names of the judges."},{"startTime":1478.779,"endTime":1481.769,"body":"And you kind of wonder, where do"},{"startTime":1478.779,"endTime":1481.769,"body":"they come up with these people?"},{"startTime":1483.129,"endTime":1485.959,"body":"And they often, not all"},{"startTime":1483.129,"endTime":1485.959,"body":"immigration judges are like that."},{"startTime":1485.98,"endTime":1486.957,"body":"Don't get me wrong."},{"startTime":1486.957,"endTime":1486.964,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1487.435,"endTime":1493.804,"body":"But, um, around the country, the,"},{"startTime":1487.435,"endTime":1493.804,"body":"the, the, the approval rate for"},{"startTime":1493.804,"endTime":1498.905,"body":"asylum is actually way below 30%."},{"startTime":1499.304,"endTime":1505.504,"body":"And, and I, that's part of my frustration"},{"startTime":1499.304,"endTime":1505.504,"body":"too is that we don't view asylum"},{"startTime":1505.524,"endTime":1511.205,"body":"from a humanitarian lens, and that"},{"startTime":1505.524,"endTime":1511.205,"body":"instead, some of the judges view it as"},{"startTime":1511.205,"endTime":1513.945,"body":"if, oh, we got to protect ourselves."},{"startTime":1514.344,"endTime":1516.574,"body":"Some reason they think they're"},{"startTime":1514.344,"endTime":1516.574,"body":"protecting the country."},{"startTime":1517.07,"endTime":1519.52,"body":"From people who are making false claims."},{"startTime":1520.074,"endTime":1524.715,"body":"Of persecution, but they and so"},{"startTime":1520.074,"endTime":1524.715,"body":"they go out of their way to find"},{"startTime":1524.715,"endTime":1528.874,"body":"discrepancies and say that they're"},{"startTime":1524.715,"endTime":1528.874,"body":"not credible, but that is not what"},{"startTime":1528.874,"endTime":1532.235,"body":"the intent is of asylum in my view."},{"startTime":1532.284,"endTime":1537.314,"body":"And, um, and so I'm, I'm urging judges."},{"startTime":1537.85,"endTime":1543.6,"body":"To and, and, um, and Congress"},{"startTime":1537.85,"endTime":1543.6,"body":"to take a look at the approach"},{"startTime":1543.629,"endTime":1545.28,"body":"that we should take to asylum."},{"startTime":1545.8,"endTime":1550.269,"body":"Um, so I was, as you in my introduction,"},{"startTime":1545.8,"endTime":1550.269,"body":"you noted, I was in this case."},{"startTime":1551.189,"endTime":1554.549,"body":"It was cited in the"},{"startTime":1551.189,"endTime":1554.549,"body":"1980s, and in that case."},{"startTime":1555.139,"endTime":1558.24,"body":"That included Scalia in the majority."},{"startTime":1558.34,"endTime":1558.76,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1559.05,"endTime":1563.899,"body":"Um, they agreed that for asylum"},{"startTime":1559.05,"endTime":1563.899,"body":"and they say this justice."},{"startTime":1563.919,"endTime":1572.389,"body":"Steven says this in the decision that a 10"},{"startTime":1563.919,"endTime":1572.389,"body":"percent chance of persecution is enough to"},{"startTime":1572.389,"endTime":1574.769,"body":"satisfy well founded for your persecution."},{"startTime":1575.459,"endTime":1578.62,"body":"But judges just don't look at it that way."},{"startTime":1579.054,"endTime":1587.145,"body":"And so I am urging that we look at asylum"},{"startTime":1579.054,"endTime":1587.145,"body":"in the same way we look at criminal"},{"startTime":1587.145,"endTime":1593.205,"body":"law, that in criminal law, if there's"},{"startTime":1587.145,"endTime":1593.205,"body":"a reasonable doubt you find the person"},{"startTime":1593.214,"endTime":1599.464,"body":"not guilty, well, kind of conversely,"},{"startTime":1593.214,"endTime":1599.464,"body":"in asylum, you should give the benefit"},{"startTime":1599.464,"endTime":1604.289,"body":"of the doubt to the applicant, unless"},{"startTime":1599.464,"endTime":1604.289,"body":"there's a reasonable doubt Thank you."},{"startTime":1604.76,"endTime":1606.86,"body":"That the person won't get persecuted."},{"startTime":1607.17,"endTime":1609.06,"body":"In other words, so I would look at it."},{"startTime":1609.46,"endTime":1615.429,"body":"That's the way I think it's intended to"},{"startTime":1609.46,"endTime":1615.429,"body":"be viewed and that's the way the it's it's"},{"startTime":1615.46,"endTime":1618.079,"body":"applied in other nations of the world."},{"startTime":1618.08,"endTime":1622.639,"body":"It's applied that way in the"},{"startTime":1618.08,"endTime":1622.639,"body":"UK and in Canada and in most of"},{"startTime":1622.639,"endTime":1626.32,"body":"Europe and the United States is"},{"startTime":1622.639,"endTime":1626.32,"body":"behind when it comes to that."},{"startTime":1627.44,"endTime":1629.09,"body":"This is such helpful information."},{"startTime":1629.68,"endTime":1631.71,"body":"I'm learning so much from you."},{"startTime":1631.91,"endTime":1634.04,"body":"I've practiced almost 20"},{"startTime":1631.91,"endTime":1634.04,"body":"years immigration law."},{"startTime":1634.04,"endTime":1636.01,"body":"I'm learning so much from"},{"startTime":1634.04,"endTime":1636.01,"body":"you in these 30 minutes."},{"startTime":1636.81,"endTime":1641.909,"body":"Um, I'm going to use that case"},{"startTime":1636.81,"endTime":1641.909,"body":"for our, uh, for our asylum cases."},{"startTime":1644.34,"endTime":1646.61,"body":"Okay, I want to use that for sure."},{"startTime":1646.61,"endTime":1647.409,"body":"That's going down."},{"startTime":1647.81,"endTime":1648.159,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1648.27,"endTime":1651.45,"body":"No, I, I think, um, you're totally right."},{"startTime":1651.63,"endTime":1658.47,"body":"And this is why the racism,"},{"startTime":1651.63,"endTime":1658.47,"body":"discrimination, prejudices, biases are"},{"startTime":1658.47,"endTime":1662.265,"body":"related to immigration, because that's"},{"startTime":1658.47,"endTime":1662.265,"body":"where these individual, I believe, Some"},{"startTime":1662.265,"endTime":1667.375,"body":"of these individuals, these judges have"},{"startTime":1662.265,"endTime":1667.375,"body":"those biases, it'd be very different if"},{"startTime":1667.375,"endTime":1672.095,"body":"it was maybe someone from the UK, you"},{"startTime":1667.375,"endTime":1672.095,"body":"know, someone, someone was white, um,"},{"startTime":1672.105,"endTime":1677.445,"body":"going through and being deported in the"},{"startTime":1672.105,"endTime":1677.445,"body":"same way with the same issues, uh, uh."},{"startTime":1677.83,"endTime":1680.54,"body":"You know, I think there are people"},{"startTime":1677.83,"endTime":1680.54,"body":"who are racist making decisions."},{"startTime":1681.72,"endTime":1685.33,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I, I think that's right."},{"startTime":1685.33,"endTime":1689.009,"body":"There's so much evidence of that"},{"startTime":1685.33,"endTime":1689.009,"body":"and the way they treat, mistreat"},{"startTime":1689.009,"endTime":1690.46,"body":"people in the classroom too."},{"startTime":1690.669,"endTime":1692.729,"body":"I mean, in the book, I talk"},{"startTime":1690.669,"endTime":1692.729,"body":"about a couple incidents."},{"startTime":1692.73,"endTime":1693.24,"body":"It didn't hurt."},{"startTime":1693.24,"endTime":1697.299,"body":"It didn't occur to me, but they"},{"startTime":1693.24,"endTime":1697.299,"body":"were reported to me by friends"},{"startTime":1697.33,"endTime":1699.01,"body":"and they were news reports."},{"startTime":1699.63,"endTime":1703.18,"body":"There was a judge that got tired of"},{"startTime":1699.63,"endTime":1703.18,"body":"a two year old or three year old in"},{"startTime":1703.18,"endTime":1708.529,"body":"the courtroom making noise and he,"},{"startTime":1703.18,"endTime":1708.529,"body":"on the record, he wagged his finger."},{"startTime":1708.945,"endTime":1712.565,"body":"At the kid and said, if you don't be"},{"startTime":1708.945,"endTime":1712.565,"body":"quiet, I'm going to bring my dog from"},{"startTime":1712.575,"endTime":1715.075,"body":"the back room and sick my dog on you."},{"startTime":1715.085,"endTime":1717.425,"body":"I mean, Oh, my God there."},{"startTime":1717.515,"endTime":1720.114,"body":"Uh, and that was on the record in a case."},{"startTime":1720.175,"endTime":1726.015,"body":"Um, and you know, there are other"},{"startTime":1720.175,"endTime":1726.015,"body":"examples of that were in San Francisco."},{"startTime":1726.365,"endTime":1727.615,"body":"We got rid of a judge."},{"startTime":1727.625,"endTime":1728.705,"body":"His name was Ford."},{"startTime":1729.515,"endTime":1734.435,"body":"Um, for his, uh, there was a"},{"startTime":1729.515,"endTime":1734.435,"body":"petition that immigration lawyers"},{"startTime":1734.435,"endTime":1736.705,"body":"all signed and he was investigated."},{"startTime":1737.185,"endTime":1743.735,"body":"That he was just completely rude to all"},{"startTime":1737.185,"endTime":1743.735,"body":"the clients and Spanish, especially the"},{"startTime":1743.735,"endTime":1745.495,"body":"Spanish speaking clients, and he just."},{"startTime":1746.445,"endTime":1751.105,"body":"He just treated them like"},{"startTime":1746.445,"endTime":1751.105,"body":"crap, and with no respect."},{"startTime":1751.435,"endTime":1755.495,"body":"And we complained, and he"},{"startTime":1751.435,"endTime":1755.495,"body":"finally was forced to resign."},{"startTime":1755.675,"endTime":1761.255,"body":"I argue that we need a new system"},{"startTime":1755.675,"endTime":1761.255,"body":"of immigration judges, too."},{"startTime":1761.255,"endTime":1767.164,"body":"That it really should be elevated to"},{"startTime":1761.255,"endTime":1767.164,"body":"the level of federal court position."},{"startTime":1767.514,"endTime":1770.214,"body":"Because right now they're"},{"startTime":1767.514,"endTime":1770.214,"body":"appointed by the Attorney General."},{"startTime":1771.449,"endTime":1774.639,"body":"I know all appointments are"},{"startTime":1771.449,"endTime":1774.639,"body":"political, even federal judges,"},{"startTime":1774.67,"endTime":1781.259,"body":"but over time, you will attract"},{"startTime":1774.67,"endTime":1781.259,"body":"better competent people, I think."},{"startTime":1781.29,"endTime":1787.02,"body":"And, uh, and so, uh, I just think the"},{"startTime":1781.29,"endTime":1787.02,"body":"current system is too politicized."},{"startTime":1788.169,"endTime":1789.059,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1789.26,"endTime":1789.98,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1790.639,"endTime":1792.879,"body":"Uh, what, who should be reading your book?"},{"startTime":1793.669,"endTime":1795.25,"body":"Well, I really want."},{"startTime":1795.76,"endTime":1802.66,"body":"The public to read it because I"},{"startTime":1795.76,"endTime":1802.66,"body":"want them to maybe they won't ever"},{"startTime":1802.66,"endTime":1806.47,"body":"feel as passionate as I do about"},{"startTime":1802.66,"endTime":1806.47,"body":"it, but I want them to know why"},{"startTime":1806.47,"endTime":1808.61,"body":"I feel passionately about this."},{"startTime":1808.869,"endTime":1812.189,"body":"And it's because of the injustices"},{"startTime":1808.869,"endTime":1812.189,"body":"that I've seen and the kinds"},{"startTime":1812.19,"endTime":1813.24,"body":"of things that I write about."},{"startTime":1813.715,"endTime":1820.965,"body":"In the book, because I hope that that"},{"startTime":1813.715,"endTime":1820.965,"body":"influences their views toward non citizens"},{"startTime":1821.275,"endTime":1826.285,"body":"and their views towards the types of"},{"startTime":1821.275,"endTime":1826.285,"body":"political leaders that we need to elect."},{"startTime":1826.544,"endTime":1831.724,"body":"And yes, I would like politicians to"},{"startTime":1826.544,"endTime":1831.724,"body":"read this too, because I'll be honest"},{"startTime":1831.724,"endTime":1833.395,"body":"with you, something like the Dream Act."},{"startTime":1833.77,"endTime":1840.91,"body":"For young undocumented folks that came"},{"startTime":1833.77,"endTime":1840.91,"body":"here as little kids, um, that were"},{"startTime":1840.91,"endTime":1844.11,"body":"undocumented because they overstayed their"},{"startTime":1840.91,"endTime":1844.11,"body":"visas or they came without inspection."},{"startTime":1844.57,"endTime":1848.03,"body":"The DREAM Act has been pending since 2001."},{"startTime":1848.35,"endTime":1848.61,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1848.61,"endTime":1849.09,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":1849.61,"endTime":1849.86,"body":"Awful."},{"startTime":1849.9,"endTime":1852.21,"body":"And it's never passed."},{"startTime":1852.21,"endTime":1853.889,"body":"It came close in 2010."},{"startTime":1854.43,"endTime":1855.77,"body":"That's a no brainer."},{"startTime":1856.1,"endTime":1859.8,"body":"That those individuals should"},{"startTime":1856.1,"endTime":1859.8,"body":"be granted legalization."},{"startTime":1859.9,"endTime":1864.73,"body":"Um, and honestly, I think their"},{"startTime":1859.9,"endTime":1864.73,"body":"parents should be granted legalization"},{"startTime":1864.73,"endTime":1868.8,"body":"too, because they're very much"},{"startTime":1864.73,"endTime":1868.8,"body":"like that 25 year old person."},{"startTime":1869.09,"endTime":1873.45,"body":"I mean, that Mexican who had lived"},{"startTime":1869.09,"endTime":1873.45,"body":"here for 25 years without any blemish."},{"startTime":1873.809,"endTime":1875.049,"body":"They're very much like him."},{"startTime":1875.46,"endTime":1877.77,"body":"They're just people that are working."},{"startTime":1878.44,"endTime":1881.1,"body":"And, um, I want."},{"startTime":1881.94,"endTime":1887.04,"body":"I want the public and policymakers"},{"startTime":1881.94,"endTime":1887.04,"body":"to think of their own heritage."},{"startTime":1887.54,"endTime":1889.7,"body":"And, um, now it's true."},{"startTime":1889.77,"endTime":1893.15,"body":"I mean, the heritage may not be"},{"startTime":1889.77,"endTime":1893.15,"body":"the same for African Americans"},{"startTime":1893.15,"endTime":1894.35,"body":"or for Native Americans."},{"startTime":1894.369,"endTime":1899.89,"body":"Okay, put them aside for a moment,"},{"startTime":1894.369,"endTime":1899.89,"body":"but everyone at the rest of us."},{"startTime":1900.595,"endTime":1904.655,"body":"Our parents, grandparents, they came."},{"startTime":1905.065,"endTime":1908.355,"body":"This is sounds like so much"},{"startTime":1905.065,"endTime":1908.355,"body":"of a cliche, but it's true."},{"startTime":1908.355,"endTime":1912.884,"body":"They really all came for the same"},{"startTime":1908.355,"endTime":1912.884,"body":"reason for a better life or for safety."},{"startTime":1913.415,"endTime":1916.465,"body":"And if we would just wrap"},{"startTime":1913.415,"endTime":1916.465,"body":"our heads around that."},{"startTime":1916.875,"endTime":1921.955,"body":"I think we would be more forgiving"},{"startTime":1916.875,"endTime":1921.955,"body":"about the border, we would be"},{"startTime":1921.955,"endTime":1927.255,"body":"more forgiving about the fact that"},{"startTime":1921.955,"endTime":1927.255,"body":"there's severe backlogs in the family"},{"startTime":1927.265,"endTime":1931.764,"body":"immigration system that, you know, we"},{"startTime":1927.265,"endTime":1931.764,"body":"should provide more visas for people."},{"startTime":1932.085,"endTime":1937.905,"body":"And so, um, that's what my hope"},{"startTime":1932.085,"endTime":1937.905,"body":"is, and that's what I want people"},{"startTime":1937.905,"endTime":1939.685,"body":"to bring away from the book."},{"startTime":1941.115,"endTime":1941.675,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":1941.725,"endTime":1942.285,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":1942.285,"endTime":1942.445,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1942.445,"endTime":1946.865,"body":"I mean, I feel, I feel that when"},{"startTime":1942.445,"endTime":1946.865,"body":"people are just watching the news"},{"startTime":1946.865,"endTime":1950.425,"body":"or not getting the whole story, it's"},{"startTime":1946.865,"endTime":1950.425,"body":"also immigration is very complex."},{"startTime":1951.065,"endTime":1955.624,"body":"It's difficult for people to generally,"},{"startTime":1951.065,"endTime":1955.624,"body":"you know, to talk in detail about"},{"startTime":1955.624,"endTime":1957.265,"body":"it without really being in it."},{"startTime":1957.464,"endTime":1961.025,"body":"They can base it on their own experiences,"},{"startTime":1957.464,"endTime":1961.025,"body":"but if they don't have an experience and"},{"startTime":1961.044,"endTime":1966.074,"body":"they're just watching it on the news, you"},{"startTime":1961.044,"endTime":1966.074,"body":"know, how, how can they be really helpful?"},{"startTime":1966.584,"endTime":1972.25,"body":"Um, I, I do the same thing with, you"},{"startTime":1966.584,"endTime":1972.25,"body":"know, this podcast, for example, I"},{"startTime":1972.25,"endTime":1976.89,"body":"wanted, I wanted it to be more for the"},{"startTime":1972.25,"endTime":1976.89,"body":"public, for the people who are interested,"},{"startTime":1977.14,"endTime":1983.139,"body":"but not necessarily lawyers wanting to"},{"startTime":1977.14,"endTime":1983.139,"body":"know how to file an I 601A, like, you"},{"startTime":1983.14,"endTime":1987.8,"body":"know, you know, this is not kind of"},{"startTime":1983.14,"endTime":1987.8,"body":"the instructional, uh, podcast really"},{"startTime":1987.8,"endTime":1990.28,"body":"about getting to know the people behind."},{"startTime":1991.09,"endTime":1996.75,"body":"The issue talking about the issue in,"},{"startTime":1991.09,"endTime":1996.75,"body":"in, you know, lay person's ways, right?"},{"startTime":1996.77,"endTime":2004.659,"body":"Like using regular, um, you know, uh,"},{"startTime":1996.77,"endTime":2004.659,"body":"non legal jargon, uh, for the most part."},{"startTime":2004.66,"endTime":2011.069,"body":"And I, and I'm hoping to educate and"},{"startTime":2004.66,"endTime":2011.069,"body":"inform people who are interested,"},{"startTime":2011.73,"endTime":2016.36,"body":"but don't have a lot of, you know,"},{"startTime":2011.73,"endTime":2016.36,"body":"background in it to, to learn."},{"startTime":2016.36,"endTime":2020.43,"body":"So I think hopefully a lot of"},{"startTime":2016.36,"endTime":2020.43,"body":"our viewers will also read."},{"startTime":2020.83,"endTime":2024.91,"body":"Your book because it's"},{"startTime":2020.83,"endTime":2024.91,"body":"it's so it's so timely."},{"startTime":2025.72,"endTime":2030.389,"body":"Um, I when I, I, I do sometimes I'm"},{"startTime":2025.72,"endTime":2030.389,"body":"interviewed for certain things that"},{"startTime":2030.39,"endTime":2034.24,"body":"I do at the, at the border and I'm"},{"startTime":2030.39,"endTime":2034.24,"body":"always talking about, it's really"},{"startTime":2034.24,"endTime":2039.24,"body":"about our humanity, saving our"},{"startTime":2034.24,"endTime":2039.24,"body":"humanity, these people, you know, to,"},{"startTime":2039.279,"endTime":2043.98,"body":"to leave everything, you know, and"},{"startTime":2039.279,"endTime":2043.98,"body":"to bring everything in one backpack"},{"startTime":2043.98,"endTime":2050.0,"body":"or suitcase and travel with little"},{"startTime":2043.98,"endTime":2050.0,"body":"children, um, or by yourself, not, you."},{"startTime":2050.36,"endTime":2053.55,"body":"But, you know, knowing where you're"},{"startTime":2050.36,"endTime":2053.55,"body":"going, just trying to get to the U."},{"startTime":2053.55,"endTime":2053.78,"body":"S."},{"startTime":2054.2,"endTime":2055.86,"body":"It's so hard to do."},{"startTime":2055.89,"endTime":2059.97,"body":"It's not like, oh, let's just"},{"startTime":2055.89,"endTime":2059.97,"body":"leave everything we know and go"},{"startTime":2059.97,"endTime":2064.009,"body":"and just walk and take buses and"},{"startTime":2059.97,"endTime":2064.009,"body":"trust other people around that."},{"startTime":2064.299,"endTime":2067.079,"body":"It's very, very difficult to do that."},{"startTime":2067.3,"endTime":2070.68,"body":"And then coming here and then"},{"startTime":2067.3,"endTime":2070.68,"body":"having to deal with, you know,"},{"startTime":2070.73,"endTime":2072.61,"body":"racist policies and, um, and."},{"startTime":2075.05,"endTime":2078.04,"body":"And judges, I don't support them and a"},{"startTime":2075.05,"endTime":2078.04,"body":"government that doesn't support them."},{"startTime":2078.04,"endTime":2081.71,"body":"I mean, the trauma that they're"},{"startTime":2078.04,"endTime":2081.71,"body":"continuously going through."},{"startTime":2082.02,"endTime":2084.05,"body":"And then if they're detained,"},{"startTime":2082.02,"endTime":2084.05,"body":"I mean, all of that."},{"startTime":2084.05,"endTime":2086.699,"body":"And it's, it's, it's so sad."},{"startTime":2086.71,"endTime":2092.55,"body":"Um, I really, I really hope, uh,"},{"startTime":2086.71,"endTime":2092.55,"body":"You have a lot of success in this"},{"startTime":2092.55,"endTime":2094.58,"body":"book and, and how do people get it?"},{"startTime":2094.62,"endTime":2097.78,"body":"So how do people find more about"},{"startTime":2094.62,"endTime":2097.78,"body":"you and how do people get it?"},{"startTime":2098.33,"endTime":2099.59,"body":"Thank you for all that you do."},{"startTime":2099.59,"endTime":2102.45,"body":"I, I'm going to start"},{"startTime":2099.59,"endTime":2102.45,"body":"listening more to your podcast."},{"startTime":2104.87,"endTime":2108.959,"body":"The book is humanizing immigration"},{"startTime":2104.87,"endTime":2108.959,"body":"and it's published by beacon press"},{"startTime":2109.31,"endTime":2114.82,"body":"and it's available through all the"},{"startTime":2109.31,"endTime":2114.82,"body":"outlets, uh, either from the beacon"},{"startTime":2114.82,"endTime":2120.369,"body":"press website, or of course on, on"},{"startTime":2114.82,"endTime":2120.369,"body":"Amazon and, uh, and, and other websites."},{"startTime":2120.39,"endTime":2120.63,"body":"And."},{"startTime":2121.1,"endTime":2124.4,"body":"Yeah, no, I'm on the website of"},{"startTime":2121.1,"endTime":2124.4,"body":"the University of San Francisco"},{"startTime":2124.69,"endTime":2129.36,"body":"School of Law, so people can find my"},{"startTime":2124.69,"endTime":2129.36,"body":"contact information on there as well."},{"startTime":2130.33,"endTime":2131.59,"body":"Great, great."},{"startTime":2131.62,"endTime":2136.28,"body":"Well, Professor Hing, uh, you"},{"startTime":2131.62,"endTime":2136.28,"body":"have inspired me to do even more."},{"startTime":2136.85,"endTime":2142.55,"body":"Um, thank you so much, uh, for"},{"startTime":2136.85,"endTime":2142.55,"body":"your time and, and, uh, and I"},{"startTime":2142.55,"endTime":2144.01,"body":"wish I could be in your class."},{"startTime":2146.2,"endTime":2148.84,"body":"So thank you so much and"},{"startTime":2146.2,"endTime":2148.84,"body":"hopefully I can see you again."},{"startTime":2149.03,"endTime":2149.54,"body":"Take care."},{"startTime":2149.72,"endTime":2150.59,"body":"Have a beautiful day."},{"startTime":2150.93,"endTime":2151.609,"body":"Thank you."}]}