Speaker 1: We're talking about divorce again today and I just want to own.
Speaker 1: Okay, I haven't been divorced, so there's going to be a whole lot of stuff today.
Speaker 1: We talked about last week very specific things about God's heart for marriage and how God is a very forgiving God and grace, and we're talking about another aspect of divorce today and I just got to tell you here's the thing about me I care about everybody in this room.
Speaker 1: I care about you, I actually love you.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing about me I care about everybody in this room.
Speaker 1: I care about you, I actually love you, but I'm not going to get everything right about your particular situation.
Speaker 1: So you got to give me that grace.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm trying to help, but I know everybody's got a unique situation.
Speaker 1: So there's going to be something I say at some point and you're going to be like that's not really how it was for me, okay, oh, now I know it probably wasn't exactly like that for you, but the principles are still the same for humans in general.
Speaker 1: Can you give me the grace as we walk into that?
Speaker 1: Is that okay?
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to try to be sensitive, but I'm just not going to say everything right because I don't even have the experience.
Speaker 1: Personally, I've just walked with people that do so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, last weekend we talked about marriage and we said that God really exalts marriage, he loves marriage, he dignifies marriage.
Speaker 1: But we talked about people get into trouble because, well, every situation is unique.
Speaker 1: There's also a general.
Speaker 1: We've all got this capacity to undervalue people.
Speaker 1: We've all got a capacity to be selfish.
Speaker 1: We've all got a capacity to be entitled and often that bleeds into a marriage and causes long-term a divorce.
Speaker 1: And we talked about how Jesus confronts that.
Speaker 1: He's confronting that in the Sermon on the Mount and he's telling the people of that time hey, I did not make marriage for you, just toss people away, like so many of you are doing and so many of you want to do.
Speaker 1: And so we walked through that together as Jesus confronted that.
Speaker 1: But then we also talked about the mercy that Jesus brings.
Speaker 1: And today we're going to talk about the exceptions that are in the Bible, meaning there are times, actually, where God makes space and says I don't want you to be chained to this deadly situation, you are free to move on from this, even though my general will is that people stay married for life.
Speaker 1: So today we're in 1 Corinthians 7.
Speaker 1: We're still in the applause of heaven series, but we're in 1 Corinthians 7.
Speaker 1: And Paul is talking about various marriage questions.
Speaker 1: Okay, the Corinthian church is largely among a non-God-following culture and they've got a lot of questions.
Speaker 1: People are coming to know Jesus and so they're married to people and are like what do we do now?
Speaker 1: Because I follow Jesus but they do not want to follow Jesus?
Speaker 1: Or I'm thinking about getting married and I don't know if that's a good idea, because now that I'm, you know, oriented toward Jesus, is this a wise move?
Speaker 1: So they've asked the Apostle Paul all these questions and he's responding in this letter.
Speaker 1: As a first, he just affirms, yeah, marriage verses 10 through 11.
Speaker 1: He affirms marriage is God's ultimately like, perfectly, he wants you to stay married.
Speaker 1: That's his general rule for everybody.
Speaker 1: He talks about in verses 12 through 13,.
Speaker 1: Even if you're with somebody who isn't a believer, if they're willing to stay with you, stay with them, because you never know what God might do.
Speaker 1: He might totally transform your family.
Speaker 1: You don't know what he'll do next year or three years from now.
Speaker 1: All you know is maybe you don't necessarily, isn't comfortable right now, it's not enjoyable right now, but you don't know how God's going to use your faithfulness in the future.
Speaker 1: And then he gets to verse 13.
Speaker 1: And this is where an exception comes out.
Speaker 1: This is where now it's really important to know this.
Speaker 1: Paul is expanding on what Jesus said.
Speaker 1: So Jesus said hey, here's the one reason that you can get divorced it's adultery.
Speaker 1: And then Paul comes along in 1 Corinthians 7 and says there's actually more reasons you might get divorced.
Speaker 1: And here's one of them.
Speaker 1: And he says it's abandonment.
Speaker 1: We see this right.
Speaker 1: 1 Corinthians 7, 15.
Speaker 1: But if an unbelieving partner separates, meaning they leave you, let it be so, meaning you can get divorced.
Speaker 1: In such cases, the brother or sister is not enslaved.
Speaker 1: God has called you to peace.
Speaker 1: Now, a really important phrase here is in such cases this is the word teutos.
Speaker 1: And the question that scholars are going to debate, they're going to go back and forth on this is when he says in such cases, does he mean things like this, things that are of a similar kind, or does he mean the thing I just talked about?
Speaker 1: Does he mean the thing that I just mentioned?
Speaker 1: That's the thing.
Speaker 1: The cases of that, which one is it?
Speaker 1: And I would tell you, most of my Christian life I believed it was the latter Meaning.
Speaker 1: I would read that, as Paul is saying, hey, in such cases where someone abandons you, in that case, in any of those cases where someone abandons you, yes, you may go ahead and freely not be enslaved to them, and you can go ahead and get divorced so you can walk in peace for your life instead of always be tangled up in this emotional turmoil.
Speaker 1: You can move on.
Speaker 1: However, if you look at this word teutos, here's what you're going to find.
Speaker 1: You're going to find that commonly in the Bible and in literature of the time.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what that means is the Corinthians didn't just read the Bible, there was a lot of other literature around, and so when someone heard this word teutos, what did they think was being said?
Speaker 1: Did they think it was kinds like this or that exact one I just mentioned?
Speaker 1: Let me give you some Bible evidence first, and then we'll look at something else.
Speaker 1: So examples where they use the word teutos Mark 10, 14,.
Speaker 1: The kingdom of God doesn't belong to these children only.
Speaker 1: So the kingdom of God belongs to such as these, these children.
Speaker 1: He's not saying it belongs to only as these, these children.
Speaker 1: He's not saying it belongs to only these kids right here.
Speaker 1: He's saying what jesus is saying it belongs to all who are of this kind of faith.
Speaker 1: That's what he's saying.
Speaker 1: Mark 7, 13 um, you do thus void the word of god by your tradition that you have handed down, and many such things you do.
Speaker 1: He says you do these kinds of things, not just this exact one, it's these kinds John 8, 5.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this woman is in trouble and they're asking Jesus Now, in the law, moses commanded us to stone such women, teutos, such women.
Speaker 1: What do you say?
Speaker 1: Now they're not making the claim.
Speaker 1: The law of Moses said to stone this woman.
Speaker 1: They're saying the Bible said stone women like this.
Speaker 1: Now, she didn't actually do it and they weren't supposed to, or no, she did do it, but Jesus didn't want them to go ahead and fulfill that, not the point.
Speaker 1: Such women like this, this kind of person who's committed this kind of sin 1 Corinthians 5.1.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he's talking about this dude committed a specific kind of sexual immorality and he says okay, this is so bad, like even surrounding cultures don't do this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: This teotos Not saying they don't do just this exact thing, but even any other kind similar to this they don't do.
Speaker 1: I'm berating this because I want you to see this isn't a weak argument.
Speaker 1: This isn't weak sauce.
Speaker 1: This isn't me trying to fit something into scripture Like the scripture.
Speaker 1: The evidence I see points to this.
Speaker 1: There's a really probably like the premier theologian of our time, of this generation, named Wayne Grudem.
Speaker 1: One of the things that makes him so compelling is he's super rich and orthodox and yet he's able to just write in such a way that he communicates in a very common language that people can understand it.
Speaker 1: In other words, he makes theology not old and dusty, he makes it really simple so people can understand it.
Speaker 1: For most of his career he just kind of thought there was only two reasons to ever get divorced adultery and abandonment.
Speaker 1: But he changed his mind over time.
Speaker 1: He did richer study in his latter years as a professor, and this is what Wayne Grudem says.
Speaker 1: Several examples from extra-biblical literature show that the expression in such cases in tutos often refers to a variety of situations that are similar to, but clearly not identical to, the specific situation mentioned.
Speaker 1: This suggests that Paul considered divorce a legitimate possibility, not only in cases of desertion by an unbeliever, but also in situations that similarly brought extensive and severe damage to a marriage.
Speaker 1: Now, you may or may not think that I'm just saying that's the perspective I'm going to be approaching the scriptures with today, so we're going to draw some conclusions from that, okay, admittedly, that's a little shaky for people, that's a little scary for some.
Speaker 1: Some of you are a little bit more like hey, man, no, we got to stick to the word.
Speaker 1: I hear you, we do have to stick to the word, like we don't want to just stretch this into meaning anything, because that's what people can sometimes do.
Speaker 1: They're like okay, well, I mean, I can, just if I think it's like really hard, or if it's really bad, if it's really enslaving, that's cause for divorce.
Speaker 1: I don't not saying that.
Speaker 1: I think we got to keep the word, what the word says.
Speaker 1: We're not trying to redefine God's word, but we are trying to.
Speaker 1: If God's word really says, in such cases and that doesn't mean this exact one, but things like this then if we're going to stay committed to the word of God, we have to be committed to that, and what that also means, though, is it creates a space for God to be generous and gracious and say I see the suffering of this, and there are some things that are so deadly, there are things that are so bad.
Speaker 1: It is cruel to keep one or a family in that situation.
Speaker 1: So what I want to do is I want to talk about that.
Speaker 1: I want people to not feel bad about something God is actually saying you are not enslaved to this, I want you to walk in peace.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go.
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to give you some examples that I think so, just to clarify.
Speaker 1: The Bible doesn't even say these things.
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you these ones would make sense to me as a pastor that's walked with people for a while.
Speaker 1: These are the kinds of cases such as these that I think might, as God would lead that person, as God would lead them through the word, as counsel and church friends around them, approach and evaluate the situation and tell them the truth.
Speaker 1: These are the kinds of things that might be such as the one Paul mentioned, and I think a common thread is before I list them, a common thread for me might be something like in such cases, there's a long-term trying to bring pain rather than accidentally bringing pain out of ignorance, lack of skill.
Speaker 1: You're crappy at loving people.
Speaker 1: That's a different thing.
Speaker 1: You might be crappy at loving people.
Speaker 1: That's not the same thing as you're actively trying to cause pain in something that the Lord created to be a place that is a garden, that is a place of joy, that is a place of prosperity, that is a place of delight, when someone, long-term, is actively trying to bring pain into that situation.
Speaker 1: That might be a common thread that unites some of these.
Speaker 1: So here's one physical abuse.
Speaker 1: When there is long-term physical abuse in the sense of there's actually violence and it's not even just like it wasn't like you know somebody, it wasn't even just like an accident, it wasn't like a flare of like something just went strange in the day or in the year or in the, you know, in the decade.
Speaker 1: It's a repetitive thing, it is.
Speaker 1: I don't trust that this isn't going to happen again soon, because it tends to happen.
Speaker 1: That would be a case for me of okay, that is so damaging, that is so violent, that it may be that this is one of the such cases that Paul would be talking about.
Speaker 1: It may not be.
Speaker 1: It may be that we need to see God and spend more time talking about that.
Speaker 1: Again, god's general will for most married couples is that they stay married until one of them is dead.
Speaker 1: But it's worth exploring, it's worth asking questions.
Speaker 1: We're gonna give some cases in just a few minutes.
Speaker 1: I think that also means abusive children applies as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, so if you can't trust that this person isn't going to hurt the children, yeah, I think that qualifies for divorce.
Speaker 1: If that's a long-term thing that you think is probably going to happen and some might say well, carter, isn't it a better testimony to the power of God if you just stay married to show God's grace?
Speaker 1: There are situations, I think, where it is powerful to show God's grace by remaining faithful, but it is so much more damaging.
Speaker 1: I would make the case in most cases, the violence you're doing to a young person as the person that is supposed to be teaching them what God is like, you're jacking up their world worse than if you got divorced.
Speaker 1: In such unique cases, I think that might be the case.
Speaker 1: What about extreme, prolonged verbal and relational cruelty?
Speaker 1: Is this aversion?
Speaker 1: I think it could be.
Speaker 1: I think you'd really have to look at that.
Speaker 1: You'd have to look at the patterns.
Speaker 1: You have to look at exactly.
Speaker 1: There could be versions where there is malevolence, there is a desire to bring pain and foster pain over a long period of time, where this is the opposite of what a spouse is and what a spouse does, and there is no, it's very likely that this is going to continue again and again, and there's even it's very likely that this is going to continue again and again, and there's even it's a sadistic kind of a joy that this is happening.
Speaker 1: If that is happening, yeah, that might qualify.
Speaker 1: I think this is a tricky one, I think, and the reason is because the word abuse can stretch.
Speaker 1: It can stretch into a lot of things, and I'll give you two extremes that I think are both an example of how this can get weird.
Speaker 1: And I'll give you two extremes that I think are both an example of how this can get weird.
Speaker 1: We've definitely seen cases of abuse where it was abuse, but the person who is being abused oftentimes is unwilling to admit that that is what it is.
Speaker 1: So it is that.
Speaker 1: But they're stretching the definition to include the, honestly, the hard but normal conflicts that happen on planet earth with humans that are going to live in close quarters, even over a long period of time.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying who's doing that, I'm just saying that happens and that's real along that whole spectrum.
Speaker 1: That's why it takes time, it takes prayer, it takes counsel, it takes people that love you enough to tell you the truth, and it probably takes a lot of people being able to look in on that and see that, and that's very hard.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about some of those strategies in a second.
Speaker 1: Credible threats of physical harm or murder yeah, I think that might be such a case as this that it's okay, you're not enslaved to that.
Speaker 1: Guys, I'm going to tell you the truth.
Speaker 1: That is more real than you might think.
Speaker 1: Okay, like we've got folks that are connected to our church who her husband was poisoning her.
Speaker 1: Okay, when you can't wake up and not think you might be killed today by your spouse or your kids might, yeah, that's just a different set of rules.
Speaker 1: Now, okay, we're in a different reality and there's got to be a place where you're not enslaved to that.
Speaker 1: What about when you've got habitual drug use?
Speaker 1: Not even just like, okay, this person did some drugs or whatever, or they bring some weed around the houses.
Speaker 1: That's a whole set of problems we can talk about.
Speaker 1: Okay, but I'm talking about criminal elements are now getting involved.
Speaker 1: It is not safe because you don't know who's coming over and you don't know what they're bringing and you don't know where this money's going and you don't know that you're not already in financial jeopardy because of the patterns of your spouse and the kinds of things and the elements that they're giving themselves to.
Speaker 1: I think that even applies for very deep addictions to porn.
Speaker 1: When there's like I don't know, guys, I can tell you about porn.
Speaker 1: It goes deep and it keeps going deeper.
Speaker 1: The grave is never satisfied.
Speaker 1: It keeps pulling and pulling and pulling.
Speaker 1: It keeps causing lust for more and more and more and more, and that's how people get into child porn, like that's how people get into dark stuff.
Speaker 1: That's always the plan of the enemy and so if it's gotten there yeah, I don't know Like we should talk about that.
Speaker 1: That might be a case where, in such cases, god has not called you to be hitched to that, as that downward spiral implodes into violence and criminal charges.
Speaker 1: So there are some you say, Carter, why don't you just separate?
Speaker 1: I mean that's a solution, right, just separate for life, not really divorced.
Speaker 1: But then why don't you just separate?
Speaker 1: I mean that's the solution, right, just separate for life, not really divorced, but then you don't have to be around it.
Speaker 1: Here's why.
Speaker 1: Because Paul just said in such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved.
Speaker 1: God says my heart is not that you're in slavery.
Speaker 1: I don't want you in slavery to that addiction.
Speaker 1: I don't want you in slavery to that violence.
Speaker 1: I've called you to walk in peace.
Speaker 1: I want you to have peace in your life.
Speaker 1: And if this thing is just it's so ugly that your marriage is a slaughterhouse instead of a garden then we need to talk about a space that God has made in his loving kindness to get you out of that, because God has got your back.
Speaker 1: So what I want to do now I know I'm as deep and heavy and nobody wants to think about that I want to talk through some questions that people asked online.
Speaker 1: People were just talking about divorce online and people asked some questions.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you my two cents, hopefully biblically, based on how we might think about some of these questions.
Speaker 1: First category forgiveness and shame.
Speaker 1: Do I need forgiveness for getting a divorce?
Speaker 1: Forgiveness and shame Do I need forgiveness for getting a divorce?
Speaker 1: Does God forgive me?
Speaker 1: Depends.
Speaker 1: Yes, if you initiated a sinful divorce meaning it was not unauthorized, it wasn't one of the reasons that God would say, then that was sin and, yes, you need to be forgiven for that.
Speaker 1: If it's possible, okay.
Speaker 1: So if it's still a doable thing that you can be restored to that person, then you should seek to be restored.
Speaker 1: That means you repent to Jesus, say Lord, I'm sorry for what I did and how this got out of hand.
Speaker 1: You seek to be restored to that person and you receive his forgiveness and you move forward in freedom.
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, man, some of this is more possible than you think.
Speaker 1: We've got couples in this very church who got divorced and then got remarried and they're living in the promises of God now, like they're moving forward great.
Speaker 1: So there are cases where it's definitely not hopeless.
Speaker 1: But if you were the kind of the part that caused it, then, yeah, you need to repent and by the grace of God, you could be forgiven as well If it was done to you.
Speaker 1: You don't need to repent for getting a divorce because you resisted this.
Speaker 1: You didn't want this to happen.
Speaker 1: It was more forced on you than anything else.
Speaker 1: I can assure you from 1 John 1.9,.
Speaker 1: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Speaker 1: What I would encourage either party to do is to give God that pain and say, lord, would you please use this in the lives of others, because here's two versions that I see.
Speaker 1: Would you please use this in the lives of others?
Speaker 1: Because here's two versions that I see and there's more versions in the middle.
Speaker 1: But two versions are someone can get so isolated and depressed and down that they almost stop moving forward entirely.
Speaker 1: There's another version that gives their pain and their mistakes and everything else to God and they say this didn't all go the way I wanted it to go, but, god, would you use my pain, would you suck out the poison, pull out the shrapnel and help me, help other people now with my story.
Speaker 1: That might improve theirs.
Speaker 1: I would encourage anybody God can leverage and it doesn't have to be divorce pain, any pain.
Speaker 1: God can leverage that if you'll give it to him and ask him to.
Speaker 1: What about the shame of divorce?
Speaker 1: This is a little ouchy.
Speaker 1: What about the shame that comes along with?
Speaker 1: But now I feel like there's this red letter D that I'm walking around with and it hangs on me.
Speaker 1: Well, first I would tell you, if you reconcile to God through Christ, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Meaning.
Speaker 1: I know you might feel shame, but the truth is you got to change your inner monologue.
Speaker 1: You don't have to feel shame because your shame was put on Jesus.
Speaker 1: He took your shame on the cross, he took it all, and so that doesn't mean you feel better right away, but but the really the way to not feel so bad is to start to walk in the fact that Jesus approves of you, Even if everybody else doesn't.
Speaker 1: Here's a here's a little tip here.
Speaker 1: We're never going to by looking at the source of our rejection.
Speaker 1: We're only going to be healed by looking at the source of our acceptance.
Speaker 1: What that means is there's a lot of okay, I'll do it.
Speaker 1: We're never going to be healed by looking at the source of our rejection.
Speaker 1: We're going to be healed by looking at the source of our acceptance.
Speaker 1: Everybody who rejected you, okay, so I know that some divorcees they walk around with their spouse's voice in their ear.
Speaker 1: They're just telling them here's what you're doing wrong.
Speaker 1: See, I told you and this is what I think.
Speaker 1: Or they're hearing other people's fictitious voices.
Speaker 1: They're thinking people are thinking stuff about them and I'm just trying to lovingly say focusing on that will not help you, because God is true and every man is a liar.
Speaker 1: And if you look to Jesus and you see his acceptance.
Speaker 1: Jesus says hey, I'm right, I know you, I accept you.
Speaker 1: You worry about what I think about you and forget what they think.
Speaker 1: They're just dust, they don't know what I know.
Speaker 1: So you don't need to walk in second place Like, and that that takes time to work in, but, baby, you can work it in.
Speaker 1: You can get to the place where you feel absolutely no shame.
Speaker 1: It's not that you didn't do anything wrong, but it's that I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1: Jesus took my shame and I'm delighting in that and it's really, really, really, really real.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about difficult marriages for a second.
Speaker 1: One of the questions was what advice would you give someone in an abusive or unfaithful marriage?
Speaker 1: Those are maybe very different things, but let's start with abusive.
Speaker 1: The first thing.
Speaker 1: The first thing is you got to be safe, get safe.
Speaker 1: What do you do?
Speaker 1: You got to get safe.
Speaker 1: Okay, that means you go to friends, you go to the pastor, you go to the church, you go to the police.
Speaker 1: Here's what I want everyone to remember the church is not the police.
Speaker 1: We can help in a lot of ways, but we can't lock anybody up.
Speaker 1: We can't force anybody to do anything.
Speaker 1: The police can actually force people to do stuff, so you got to get safe, no matter what.
Speaker 1: We've had experiences here at the church.
Speaker 1: Let me give you three different examples.
Speaker 1: One was a case of unfaithfulness.
Speaker 1: Their conviction came upon one of these spouses for how unfaithful they'd been.
Speaker 1: They confessed it.
Speaker 1: They came to the church and we walked through that together and it was bloody and it was sad and God brought healing and over time we brought God's word to bear and consciences were shaped according to God's word and repentance full repentance and restoration happened.
Speaker 1: It was awesome.
Speaker 1: We've had versions where one of the spouses comes to me and says my husband abuses me.
Speaker 1: And we go to that guy and we confront him on it.
Speaker 1: We say, hey, man, tell us about this.
Speaker 1: And in this case he was super repentant.
Speaker 1: It coming out totally helped.
Speaker 1: Sometimes just the keeping it a secret feeds it, so to speak, and we talked through it and we talked through it and we talked through it and they kept desiring to turn their lives toward Jesus.
Speaker 1: That's what they were doing.
Speaker 1: Well, let's okay, we're not perfect, but let's turn our lives toward Jesus.
Speaker 1: And that marriage got very, very healed.
Speaker 1: I'll give you another one, and this, maybe, is for some people to pay attention to One gal.
Speaker 1: She did what was smart.
Speaker 1: First, she got safe, she got out, she just left.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of folks that are afraid to take that first step.
Speaker 1: In her case, she got out.
Speaker 1: She went to friends, went to the church, got safe.
Speaker 1: Then we came in, approached the dude.
Speaker 1: In this case he was willing to talk to us and he was super repentant, like he'd almost been hoping that she would out him because he was so ashamed and so wanted to get his life in a corrective state.
Speaker 1: I guess their marriage began to not only get better but get healthy Like it began to.
Speaker 1: They're really doing a lot right now.
Speaker 1: It was very, very beautiful.
Speaker 1: So I don't want anyone to have no hope.
Speaker 1: The church can help with this.
Speaker 1: You've got to have boldness and courage, though, to take some steps.
Speaker 1: You've got to invite other people into it.
Speaker 1: You've got to invite other people to see it, and that is not easy.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's easy, but please give us a chance to help.
Speaker 1: What do you do when your spouse refuses necessary help and growth to help make things work?
Speaker 1: Well, here's the first principle First, most of the time, almost all of the time.
Speaker 1: Stay committed to the marriage first.
Speaker 1: That's decision number one.
Speaker 1: Stay committed, even if they're refusing to grow.
Speaker 1: I know your situation is very likely unique, okay, so there's nuances to what we even mean by they're refusing to grow.
Speaker 1: We're going to need a lot of God's word, we're going to need a lot of wisdom, but there's really a lot of power in you deciding I'm going to stay active to the process of sanctification, and here's what everyone's got to know.
Speaker 1: See, most times when people come in and there's marriage problems going on, most folks we can't help it.
Speaker 1: We just think this about everything.
Speaker 1: They come and they say, well, I'm fine and good, they're the problem.
Speaker 1: God is bringing a lot of pain in my life and really the only thing that needs to change is them.
Speaker 1: Let's just shift them and everything will go good.
Speaker 1: And, guys, I hear that and I have a lot of compassion for that.
Speaker 1: Do you notice, though, none of the rest of your life is like that?
Speaker 1: Meaning, if you walk with Jesus for any time at all, you've been in a tough situation and you're like this situation is the problem, but then you got down the road a year or two years and you're like, wow, I was really kind of jacked up and God was using that situation to shape my character.
Speaker 1: So what we want to do is don't presume you've already arrived and there's nothing that God actually wants to keep you in here for to work on you.
Speaker 1: I know that it can dude.
Speaker 1: It's like sitting in a cage of nails for some like I get that, like I understand that that's how it might feel for you and maybe it does.
Speaker 1: All I'm saying is don't jump.
Speaker 1: Don't jump to.
Speaker 1: I'm already just fine.
Speaker 1: We only have to work on them.
Speaker 1: And they're unwilling.
Speaker 1: Possibly here's another asterisk.
Speaker 1: What you think about as growth might not be what's on God's recipe today.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're you're, you're acknowledging things that are real, but God's like yeah, I get you, like I'm the sanctifier, though, like I will get there.
Speaker 1: What I need you to do is cooperate with the stuff that I've already led you to be doing, so that I can.
Speaker 1: So so, at the very least, even if you end up divorced, you got all the character gold that was in it for you instead of kept the sludge non-gold, instead of kept the sludge non-gold.
Speaker 1: So let's just watch out.
Speaker 1: For most couples, they need to stay in marriage until they die, but if it's one of those unique cases it's such as these cases let's talk about it, because we're going to want to walk through it together.
Speaker 1: Here's another one.
Speaker 1: What about?
Speaker 1: We don't have a ton of time, so let me pick one more.
Speaker 1: Two that I think are maybe important.
Speaker 1: I think they're all important, but here's two.
Speaker 1: We'll go to number four, moving forward.
Speaker 1: Do we encourage dating for divorcees or does this mean they're meant to stay single?
Speaker 1: That depends.
Speaker 1: It depends on the reason for the divorce and it depends on the maturity of the person.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud.
Speaker 1: We've got a member of our church.
Speaker 1: They recognized after divorce that you know, it's not that they didn't want to be with the person They've been with people most of their lives but they just recognized.
Speaker 1: I think there's just something God wants to do in my spirit.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take a couple of years off.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to give myself to Jesus and see what he wants to grow inside of me.
Speaker 1: And guys on the other side of that, this person is so much more like.
Speaker 1: There's just a weight to their personality.
Speaker 1: They've just grown so much deeper in character.
Speaker 1: I'm really just so proud of them because they recognize it.
Speaker 1: It's not that it's not okay today, but it might just not be God's greatest time if I want to really progress in the spirit.
Speaker 1: For many folks it's.
Speaker 1: So there's people that might be in that kind of position.
Speaker 1: It might just be hey, yeah, now you're way wiser.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you're going to do different, and I think that's often a conversation you want to have at least with somebody.
Speaker 1: If this thing imploded, some of that surely was a horrible situation you were in.
Speaker 1: But what about you?
Speaker 1: Like what did you contribute to that?
Speaker 1: Because why go do the exact if you only have the same patterns you just had?
Speaker 1: Why go do the exact same thing again if those patterns don't work?
Speaker 1: This is really hard to see on the inside.
Speaker 1: It's easier to see with a little bit of distance.
Speaker 1: Here's what.
Speaker 1: Let me just say it, guys, there's people that everybody's trying their hardest, man, everyone's trying their hardest.
Speaker 1: But there's people you're just not very good at marriage, meaning the skills it takes to do it.
Speaker 1: You haven't developed those skills because you didn't even know you needed to.
Speaker 1: You just watched other people do it and you're like I think this is probably fine, but like anything in life.
Speaker 1: I mean, just think about anything.
Speaker 1: If you want to be good at it, honey, I'm glad you got a lot of talent, but you probably got to go out and practice.
Speaker 1: You want to be really good at it.
Speaker 1: If it's important enough that this thing has to win, then you got to get skilled.
Speaker 1: This is what Kenzie and I needed at the very beginning of our relationship.
Speaker 1: Guys, we're at each other's throats.
Speaker 1: We're like cobra and mongoose and what it was.
Speaker 1: We had this dear friend who looked at us and she was studying to get her master's in marriage counseling.
Speaker 1: And she looks at us.
Speaker 1: She's like, wow, you guys are really bad at this.
Speaker 1: Can we just start meeting and can I teach you the skills you need to love each other well and to use your conflict to benefit the marriage?
Speaker 1: Guys, it was a game changer.
Speaker 1: I'm eternally grateful to God that he got us in that before we got married, because there's so much time to learn healthy patterns.
Speaker 1: So I'm not dissing anyone.
Speaker 1: I just want everyone to understand that could be a thing in your life.
Speaker 1: It's not that you don't have a great heart, it's just that there's actually skills about how to fight right.
Speaker 1: There's actually skills about how to think through the other person's perspective in a very helpful way that you just don't have yet and it's okay.
Speaker 1: But it's probably not okay to just be like nothing needs to change about me.
Speaker 1: That's probably not okay.
Speaker 1: To just be like nothing needs to change about me.
Speaker 1: That's probably not the wisest thing you're going to say this year.
Speaker 1: Okay, one more, that's yeah, we'll do this.
Speaker 1: One too.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is going to sound weird for a minute, so flow me.
Speaker 1: As a woman who is now the spiritual head of my family, am I required to submit to anyone else?
Speaker 1: But God, okay, meaning they're divorced, I'm no longer divorced.
Speaker 1: Am I required to submit to anybody?
Speaker 1: Like, do I have to still submit to my ex husband?
Speaker 1: Do I have to submit to somebody else?
Speaker 1: And the answer is no.
Speaker 1: Once that marriage is over, that submission interaction requirement is gone.
Speaker 1: You don't have to.
Speaker 1: I think one thing I would want to point out is, in God's ideal version, submission is a partnership.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: What that means is for those who might be new to this, and I don't want you to mishear this what that means is, in a Christian marriage, all parties are equal and at the same time, at the end of the day, if it comes to it and there's a disagreement about which way is God's will, and you've prayed together, you came together, you fasted about it.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, god says husband, I want you to lead and make this choice, and, wives, I want you to invite him to lead.
Speaker 1: And that's what submission means.
Speaker 1: And that is a kindergarten version of submission, I will admit.
Speaker 1: That's good, but there's a deeper version.
Speaker 1: There's a deeper version that includes that.
Speaker 1: But submission is a partnership, meaning there's a teamhood to the whole doggone thing.
Speaker 1: There is.
Speaker 1: We've got different strengths and different gifts and we're submitting to one another, trying to understand how do I serve this person the best so they can be the best possible version of God's will for their life, so we can get across the finish lines that God's calling us to get across?
Speaker 1: And that's a team thing and it requires all kinds of different kinds of submissions.
Speaker 1: I say that to say, yeah, wives, if you're divorced, you do not have to submit to that dude.
Speaker 1: In one sense, we all have to submit to authorities, okay, so you still have to.
Speaker 1: If you go to the amusement park and the security guard tells you to get down off the fence, you still have to submit to him.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Like that's a version of submission.
Speaker 1: That's not the same thing that we're talking about, but it's still a submission kind.
Speaker 1: What I would hate to see people without is the benefits of the counsel of others that would bring your life a lot of meaning and wisdom.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm going to be totally sexist for a second.
Speaker 1: Okay, so just go with it, and it's.
Speaker 1: It's a generalization, right?
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 1: In a lot of cases not all cases, a lot of cases guys would tend to be better at compartmentalizing ideas so that those ideas are not too tied together so that they can't make a helpful decision.
Speaker 1: Gals often they are super in tune with the emotions of the room, with their own emotions, but they also tend to get intertwined sometimes.
Speaker 1: That cause they can pick up on things that are important, but at the same time, they might feel shut down and unable to move forward.
Speaker 1: Now, just to be fair, it also works the exact opposite way.
Speaker 1: I know plenty of guys that are that and plenty of gals that are very much the other version.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is in an ideal team environment, both are interacting with one another and what I feel bad for is often I'll see a single mom who there's so many people that love her, but she's without the benefit of counsel, and it doesn't have to come from a husband, it can come from a brother, it can come from just guys and gals around them to say, hey, I'm about to make this decision, what do you think about this?
Speaker 1: Because those within a marriage that has the positive partnership of submission, they have it and it's healthy and it works a lot.
Speaker 1: I just hate to see people without it.
Speaker 1: Now that takes this is actually everybody else's problem.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's not that single mom's problem, it's all of our problem.
Speaker 1: It's not the church's problem, it's all of our problem.
Speaker 1: What that means is there is a necessity for us to go first and befriend that person, that single person, and say, hey, I just want to be, if I can ever be a sounding board, if I can help, if I can come, do this thing for you, if you are overwhelmed and there's some things that need to happen.
Speaker 1: Bros, you got to rise up, dude, and you I know you're uncomfortable with it because because you're used to the world beating men down but you got to go first and you just got to say hey, man, I'm here.
Speaker 1: Anything that we need.
Speaker 1: Let's do it together for your whole doggone life.
Speaker 1: As long as I'm alive, I can help, I can talk through, and that just might be a benefit to everybody.
Speaker 1: Amen, one more and then we're going to bring up a special guest.
Speaker 1: Does an emotional affair equal a physical one?
Speaker 1: This one's really important.
Speaker 1: Well, not yet.
Speaker 1: Does an emotional affair equal a physical one?
Speaker 1: Almost what an emotional affair is is it is a trap.
Speaker 1: Let's zone this man.
Speaker 1: An emotional affair is a trap.
Speaker 1: That means someone other than your spouse is beginning to meet the needs the spouse should be meeting.
Speaker 1: Okay, so maybe that's affirming you, maybe that's spending quality time with you.
Speaker 1: Whatever it is, someone other than your spouse is doing it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 1: It may be that you're just kind of sinfully off to the side trying to stoke that fire.
Speaker 1: It may be that your spouse genuinely doesn't even know how to meet that need.
Speaker 1: That is also one of those skill training things.
Speaker 1: But whatever it is, the enemy is luring you and saying let's destroy this marriage and I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1: I'll make a deal, let's have this person fill all those banks and you can just be done with this other one.
Speaker 1: Guys, there's a lot of marriages that are claiming irreconcilable differences, but what it really was was it was an emotional affair trap.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's everybody, I'm not saying that's everybody, I'm not saying that's you.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that is a thing, and so we got to watch out for it.
Speaker 1: Here's what I would recommend.
Speaker 1: This is hard and you got to come up with a strategy.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's like it's not quite as easy as just do this.
Speaker 1: You got to think about it, but you got to get out of it.
Speaker 1: You got to get out.
Speaker 1: Whatever you got to do, you got to.
Speaker 1: I've seen people move.
Speaker 1: I've seen people get out of the job that they're in.
Speaker 1: I've seen people change churches because they just discern.
Speaker 1: This is getting too important.
Speaker 1: This relationship is becoming too important to me.
Speaker 1: I've got to get away from this because it's really the proximity that is causing a lot of it.
Speaker 1: An emotional affair does it happen in every case?
Speaker 1: No, I'm sure it doesn't, but in the majority of the cases, think, think, think.
Speaker 1: Like you have an actual enemy that is trying to take out your family.
Speaker 1: Think about it that way.
Speaker 1: This is a trap.
Speaker 1: You got to get out.
Speaker 1: You got to get away from it.
Speaker 1: Okay, somebody say thanks for preaching to us, carter.
Speaker 1: What I want to do now is I want to bring a very special guest, shara.
Speaker 1: Many of you know Shara.
Speaker 1: She's been a part of our church for a long time.
Speaker 1: What I love about Shara, guys, I've watched this woman grow in the Lord so much.
Speaker 1: She's been through hell and back, but also I've watched this woman walk in victory Like I've seen her subjugate her desires to Jesus.
Speaker 1: I've seen her choose Jesus' voice.
Speaker 1: I've seen her do the homework, like do the work with God To.
Speaker 1: Was it painful, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Has she been leveraging it?
Speaker 1: Yes, and so I think she deserves a round of applause even again.
Speaker 1: But hey, shara, hey, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm super good.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me up here.
Speaker 1: You're welcome.
Speaker 2: But hey, shara, hey, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm super good.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me up here.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 1: Hey, what do you think are one or two temptations, whether they're internal or external, that divorcees are?
Speaker 2: going to experience.
Speaker 2: This is a great question and I know that rushing into things is something like right after a divorce or right after a separation is really hard not to rush out and try and find someone or something that is going to make you feel good.
Speaker 2: We should be rushing to God, we should be rushing towards Jesus, we should be rushing to get on our knees and pray.
Speaker 1: What are some of the things?
Speaker 1: Okay, so like there's an, maybe there's an internal voice that's contributing to that, what is the enemy trying to say?
Speaker 1: What is he trying to tell you when he's trying to get you to rush out?
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of times he is using the Bible and he's twisting it to tell us to go out and, you know, find that, that person or find that thing that's going to make us feel good.
Speaker 2: So I think he's just going to come in like a lion and he's going to come in and destroy you, and destroy anything that makes you feel like you are God's child and that you are loved and accepted.
Speaker 1: That's really good, I think.
Speaker 1: Sometimes, with lots of different kinds of trials, we wanna get onto it, we wanna get past something, and sometimes God does things immediately, but sometimes there's a waiting of like okay, I've gotta make sure that I'm hearing God rightly, and if we race out and jump into something new, we're missing the train he was gonna send.
Speaker 1: That was like way better for our life, way better for our family.
Speaker 1: So that totally makes sense.
Speaker 1: What about discouragement?
Speaker 1: I think that's probably a thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some of the discouraging ideas, voices, messages that are coming to you or you're thinking about or are being put on you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I have been.
Speaker 2: I worked when I was going through my separation and my divorce.
Speaker 2: It was hard to get out of bed, it was hard to face the day, it was hard not to feel like I wasn't worthy of God's love or of anyone's love at that point, and one of the things that I really was able to cling to was Lamentations 3.
Speaker 2: Lamentations 3 starts out.
Speaker 2: I'll never forget the trouble, the utter lostness, the taste of ashes, the poison that I've swallowed.
Speaker 2: I remember it all.
Speaker 2: Oh, how well I remember it, the feeling of hitting the bottom.
Speaker 2: But there's one thing that I remember and keep remembering and keep a grip on hope.
Speaker 2: God's loyal love couldn't have run out.
Speaker 2: His merciful love couldn't have dried up.
Speaker 2: They're created new every morning.
Speaker 2: How great is your faithfulness?
Speaker 2: I'm sticking with God and I say it over and over.
Speaker 2: He's all I have left, and that was one of the biggest things that was pushing me through every single day to get out of bed was God has given me mercies every single day.
Speaker 1: Yeah isn't that awesome.
Speaker 1: What about discouragement, cheryl?
Speaker 1: So I would imagine, every time you wake up, you talked about it a little bit.
Speaker 1: There's just this constant.
Speaker 1: What about discouragement, cheryl?
Speaker 1: So I would imagine, every time you wake up you know you talked about it a little bit there's just this constant.
Speaker 1: Well, that's over.
Speaker 1: You failed and you were owed better than that.
Speaker 1: Is there an anger enemy, like a resentment enemy, that you need to fight Absolutely or like?
Speaker 1: What does that look like?
Speaker 1: I was angry for a long time.
Speaker 2: What does that look like?
Speaker 2: I was angry for a long time, angry at the situation and angry at God in a way.
Speaker 2: Just know that God is bigger than your anger, so you can be angry with him and he's going to take it and he's going to say I love you regardless and he's going to turn that.
Speaker 2: I know that I was.
Speaker 2: I had to submit that to God every single day and I had to pray for my ex-husband and right now I would say that he and I have a really, really great relationship, especially for our kids because I had to let that discouragement go and let that pain and anger go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I remember that time very vividly and I feel like I don't know that I personally, or we as a church, loved you in ways that you needed to be loved.
Speaker 1: I don't know that it was intuitive to me.
Speaker 1: I remember loving you, but I don't know that that was clear or that that came out in as helpful of a way as it might've.
Speaker 1: What could the church do for a person in that position that would be read more as actively loving them?
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 2: So at the very beginning it was very difficult to face people and it was very hard to step out on my own.
Speaker 2: So I know that had someone reached out to me, it would have been a different story.
Speaker 2: I may not have kind of hidden away for so long.
Speaker 2: I did have friends and I do have friends that did reach out to me.
Speaker 2: That you know.
Speaker 2: They would invite me to say, you know, go to a small group.
Speaker 2: But I really needed someone maybe to come to my home to just say hey, I'm going to sit with you in this really hard space, we're going to cry together and it's going to be okay.
Speaker 2: I needed somebody to be in that space with me, not necessarily in a bigger space, so in the small quiet places.
Speaker 1: Is there ever a sense, cheryl, like that there needs to be, and you tell me?
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes that can look from the outside like, wow man, like they're just so sad they just, if I come around, I'm going to be bugging them.
Speaker 1: Is there an intrusiveness level that those of us on the outside need to kind of like I'm just going to do it anyway, just in case?
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I would definitely say step into that space, even if it's uncomfortable, because it's uncomfortable, no matter what.
Speaker 1: What about dudes in particular?
Speaker 1: Because I know that we don't know what to say to the heart, necessarily.
Speaker 1: What can we do?
Speaker 2: As a brother, I think that men can reach out to other men.
Speaker 2: Men can reach out to women and say, hey, do you have a female in your life that's able to help you with this situation?
Speaker 2: If not, I'm gonna help you find someone.
Speaker 1: Come on somebody.
Speaker 1: That's really good, I think.
Speaker 1: Even maybe guys just asking what would my wife need right now, like just practically, what would she need?
Speaker 1: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Okay, get a list and let's talk about those.
Speaker 2: I know that I've had people step up and help me fix my ceiling in my house.
Speaker 2: I've had people that have just kind of been there to, you know, take me out to coffee or, you know, help me with physical things that I just haven't been able to do.
Speaker 2: But it did take a long time for me to get to that point because I didn't step out for a really long time.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you've stuck with it, lady.
Speaker 1: Thanks.
Speaker 1: What are some examples of something that you wish?
Speaker 1: Okay, so like I would imagine, once you're divorced, you see yourself as different than people that aren't divorced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you wish?
Speaker 1: People that aren't divorced knew that divorcees now know.
Speaker 2: So this is a good question too.
Speaker 2: One of the things that really and this is kind of a controversial topic I felt like my divorce was a death and a lot of people don't understand that when you go through a death, you have that stage of grief and those stages of grief can be every single day, they can be over the span of a week and then you can be reminded of that person because I share children with them and that's going to start that grief process over again, because you see them standing and walking and breathing and it's a ripping of souls and it's a ripping of souls so it's very painful and with the opportunity you have to minister to a person who's going through a pain like death, it's important to have a lot of empathy and a lot of compassion.
Speaker 1: Thanks.
Speaker 1: What about one more question?
Speaker 1: Okay, what were some things?
Speaker 1: So I feel, cheryl, like you, it was super bloody, but you leveraged that season so, like you did things that were wise, spiritually speaking, what was helpful?
Speaker 2: I got into a group of four ladies who I still love very dearly One of them who is sitting in the back today and we were all either going through a divorce or going through separations at the same time.
Speaker 2: And it was interesting because everyone had different perspectives, everyone had different situations that they were dealing with.
Speaker 2: One of the women actually is still with her spouse.
Speaker 2: They were able to work things out, but each one of us were able to breathe life into one another and have community.
Speaker 2: Community is so important, especially in situations like this, because you need your people to speak godly truth into your lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like, also, as I've talked to you, just your life in the word also saved the day.
Speaker 1: Yes, multiple times, even having that lamentation scripture.
Speaker 1: Obviously you had to get that at some point in God's presence for him to be able to encourage you.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I definitely was just immersed in the word during that time.
Speaker 2: Anytime that I could get into it and anytime that I felt discouraged, I was able to pick up the Bible and just read something.
Speaker 2: Something through Psalms, something through Proverbs was able to just kind of lift my spirits.
Speaker 2: Jeremiah 29, 11, you know, those are things that you have to remember.
Speaker 2: God is gonna strengthen you no matter what.
Speaker 1: Guys, shara is going to have a small group for ladies who are divorcees coming up after this month, so I wanna encourage you, if this is the kind of thing that you needed or need, that might be the group to sign up for fiercechurchcom.
Speaker 1: Can we give a round of applause, didn't she do well?
Speaker 1: Thank you, cheryl.
Speaker 1: Thank God she is well-spoken.
Speaker 1: Jesus exalts marriage.
Speaker 1: He says this do this, do this thing where you're laying down your life for one another, where you are one flesh.
Speaker 1: Do it with all your might.
Speaker 1: Also because the world is real and people are really sinful.
Speaker 1: Sometimes people are gonna undervalue others and sometimes it's going to end up in result, and sometimes it's so devastating and so dangerous and so deadly that divorce is a space that Jesus says yes, that's.
Speaker 1: I want you to be free and I want you to live in peace.
Speaker 1: In any of those cases, what Jesus invites us into is to walk in freedom from regret, freedom from shame, freedom from feeling like we have like the second place sticker on us, freedom from forever thinking about all we might've done or could have done by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1: And it's because of him, it's not because of self-help tools, it's not because we just think better thoughts.
Speaker 1: It's because of the blood of Jesus Christ we really do have access to the real God and that God slowly heals up hurts that were put in.
Speaker 1: He slowly gives us back a sense of confidence that we can, despite all, keep moving on in his presence and, my friends, because of him, no matter how dark it is.
Speaker 1: I just want to encourage you don't stop here, like whether you got to talk to somebody, whether you got to let somebody know whether you have to join a group, whatever you got to do, don't just go away into your closet.
Speaker 1: Like Jesus works through his people, so like, come out and let's talk about it, and I'm confident Jesus can still do miracles in your life.
Speaker 1: Let's bow our heads, father, we want to thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your word, Thank you that you give us a bazillion second chances.
Speaker 1: Thank you that you teach us in the way that we walk.
Speaker 1: Thank you that, most importantly, you are with us in the deepest, darkest places.
Speaker 1: God, I thank you for Shara.
Speaker 1: I thank you for the wisdom you've given her.
Speaker 1: I thank you for the lessons you've taught her and so many others, as they did the only thing they could do, and that was hang on to the hem of your robe.
Speaker 1: I just want to pray for our church right now.
Speaker 1: I pray that we'd be a place that, like you, loves marriage, that defends it and also makes a space for the mercy and the grace of God, and also makes a space for there to be freedom, to not have to be enslaved to situations that are truly deadly.
Speaker 1: God, would you come and make us a space, make us a church that you can use more in the lives of hurting marriages.
Speaker 1: And, god, make us a space where marriages get healed and divorcees get healed.
Speaker 1: In Christ's name, amen.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for tuning in today If God has used the ministry of Fierce in your life.
Speaker 1: In Christ's name, amen.