In this episode, a mathematician from Athens, Greece, Andreas Xeroudakis talks about the plight of the #Greek intellectual, being an only child, and gives us a bit of Greek employment history including the migration of the Greek worker. Also being a Passport for Change, Andreas merges cultures through his NGO. Andreas addresses employment issues in his home country and what propelled him to charge cluelessly forward into finding work abroad. You don’t want to miss this conversation!
To connect with Andreas
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andreas.xeroudakis
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/my_andreas/
In this episode, a mathematician from Athens, Greece, Andreas Xeroudakis talks about the plight of the #Greek intellectual, being an only child, and gives us a bit of Greek employment history including the migration of the Greek worker. Also being a Passport for Change, Andreas merges cultures through his NGO. Andreas addresses employment issues in his home country and what propelled him to charge cluelessly forward into finding work abroad. You don’t want to miss this conversation!
To connect with Andreas
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andreas.xeroudakis
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/my_andreas/
Nyra: [00:01:49] I want to know about, Andreas . First, tell me where you're from and, you know, tell us, tell me a little bit of your journey from your home country. What's your home country?
[00:02:00] [00:01:59]
Andreas: [00:01:59] I am from Greece. I was born and raised in Pireos, which is the part of the Capitol Athens. But I, I studied at another city called Patras and I stayed there 17 years so I have lived more or less the same amount of time in Pireos and in Patras. My father is from Pireos and my mother comes from a small town, two hours outside of Athens. So. By the sea and there we have a summer house and I spent all my summers and my parents retired now and they, and they moved there.
[00:02:42]I wanted to be a math teacher since I was 12. Yes, I'm one of the Wierdos. Maths Teacher since I was 12. And I managed to in Greece, the system, our SATs when you are accepted at the university, you are not accepted only at the university, like the U S and then you, you choose what to major. In Greece, you have to decide before joining the university and you cannot, and you cannot change.
[00:03:20] So when I have my SATs and I applied, I applied to various Greek universities for becoming a math teacher. And I was accepted at one, but I could only finish a math teacher is the way that our university system works. You declared your major and you are being picked up because of your major, not just as a student at the university. So I, so when I, it was accepted that the university, I knew that I would become a math teacher [00:04:00] because that's why I was accepted. When I was at university, I met my first deaf person. And I fall in love. I fell in love with Greek side language. I started lessons and when I finished my bachelor, I had my masters on deaf education.
[00:04:23] And then I started working as a math teacher in Greece. Mainly for sense [word not clear], students. Dyslexia, mental retardation and deafness. In Greece, 85% of the schools are public. And then the rest 15% are Greek language, private schools, and we have very few English, German or French language schools, like the one that they have in the UAE, but English, we have very few.
[00:05:00] So if you are a teacher in Greece, most likely you would have worked at the Greek public system. So, this is how I started my career. I taught for around six years in Greece and in 2012, economic crisis came knocking on Greek, on Greece's door. And then we had huge salary reductions in the private sector, even bigger salary reductions in the public sector. And then after so many years of, as a student or, or the first years that I studied working, that, you know, I always had to have a second job on the side, you know, something to cover my expenses after [00:06:00] many years of doing that I was three years only working as a teacher.
[00:06:06] And then suddenly with the reductions, I found myself looking for something to do during the summer of 2012. I will never forget about it because my money was not enough. I couldn't, you know finish that summer, that summer I work as a night hotel receptionist at the Greek islands, 12 hour shifts 61 days, without any days off. Then I came back and that was my final year teaching in Greece. And I decided that I will immigrate. 2012 to 2015 are three years that Greek people starting to immigrate by the thousands. We have in Greece, three majors, let's say three major immigration, season periods. One was beat between first and second world war.
[00:07:25] Then the first went to other countries, us, Canada, Germany, Sweden, Australia. Those are the countries that you will find millions of Greeks. The second period of immigration was between fifties and seventies again, U S Canada, Sweden, Australia. But now you can find Greeks in Argentina or South Africa or Ethiopia everywhere. Those two [00:08:00] immigration let's say waves were for people without even a high school diploma. I mean, the workers. We Were exporting workers, factory workers, farmers, whatever, and those people went abroad. And now most of them live there and they are considered to be Greeks from abroad. But my immigration period was with people that they had degrees and a very specific skill set. Yes. The only us we were able to immigrate because and we lost so many. I have friends that they are doctors, engineers, teachers, university professors, and they left, and now they're working across the globe. So, and then I said, okay, I will try my luck abroad.
[00:09:10] And I was Nyra clueless. I had no idea about international schools. No idea whatsoever, because even if now, if you go around the world except the UK and you look in K-12 IB American curriculum, British curriculum schools. The Greek teachers that they're working there we are. I don’t know, maybe even less than 15 across the globe. The Greeks that they only have one passport. Okay. Because if we have Greek Americans or Greek Australians or Greeks South Africans, have [00:10:00] other passports.
[00:10:01] Nyra: [00:10:01] Okay. Right. Isn’t crazy? Isn't that crazy same person. You got two different passports. I just feel a little bit better about this passport. So therefore, we're going to create a whole scenario, whole narrative because you have that passport.
[00:10:17] Andreas: [00:10:17] And this has to do because international, for example, I will tell you something which is really very annoying. If you are a university professor, your research, your studies are first, and your nationality comes second. If any, if it comes at all, I have so many Greek friends that they're university professors everywhere. Yeah, but if you try to teach at a middle school or high school, then it doesn't matter what your qualifications are. The first thing is if you are a native English speaker or if you have studied in a native English country. So I had. Nothing of that. So I had many problems, but I didn't know that from the beginning, I thought that it was like university because we don't really export teachers from Greece.
[00:11:25] So I didn't know. We export university professors. We have so many everywhere, but teachers, no. So then I started applying. This is a really funny story. My first year I applied to 176 countries.
[00:11:45] Nyra: [00:11:45] Oh my gosh.
[00:11:47] Andreas: [00:11:47] Countries that I didn't even know where they are on the map. They received a CV from someone from Greece. They didn't even know where Greece [00:12:00] is.
[00:12:01] Nyra: [00:12:01] Yeah, getting introduced back virtually by paper and try to figure it out. You have to research it that's the country you live in.
[00:12:08] Andreas: [00:12:08] I was really, I wanted so much to leave because I didn't have any choice. I am an only child. My parents are not educated, retire workers, factory workers. So even the retire benefits are very low. After the financial crisis, they became even lower. So not only I couldn't help myself, but I couldn't even help my parents. That's why I decided to leave because I was 42. I had my dream job. I had my life, my friends, my social surrounding my relatives. I didn't want to leave.
[00:12:57] I mean, I had my life, if I was five, I wouldn't mind, but when you're on 42, your life is already set with the things that enjoy doing weekdays weekends, Holidays. But. I couldn't support myself and my family. So I left anyway. I applied to 176. I got back almost all of the replies negative. You are not some of them, you are not a native English speaker. Some of the schools, you don't have qualifications from a native English-speaking country and some of the schools. Well, you have only taught in Greek. How are you going to teach in English, even math anyway? Three except four countries. I was accepted in a other school in Cape town, South Africa, [00:14:00] Kuwait, Sharjah UAE and Indonesia.
[00:14:10] Ooh. Yeah, in Indonesia, I will tell you I was only hired because the principal of the school, when he was younger, he was a teacher at an American school in Athens, and he had work with Greeks and he wanted Greeks at his school.
[00:14:34]Nyra: [00:14:34] Isn't that wonderful. Isn't that like, like there it is, right. That's he had a connection with Greek people, and he said I had a great experience. So whatever narratives that they created for, you know, when they see a Greek name and Greek university and qualifications, he bypassed all of that. He's in love. There's some value there. I want to bring this person here. You know, that is great. Tell you, I mean, that's, that's why I think that's also highlighting the importance, even though sometimes it can be uncomfortable for a lot of people to go and stretch their wings a little bit.
[00:15:13] And. You know, and travel and even work in and live abroad because people need to have an experience with you. If you give somebody a good space, you don't know how that is going to multiply. You don't know how it's going to benefit somebody else.
[00:15:26] Andreas: [00:15:26] Also for me, what you need to do is go out and what can I say? Try get out of your comfort zone. I mean, I applied at schools that they said only native English speakers. I applied everywhere whenever they wanted the math teacher, I applied with a resume and a nice cover letter who said who I am and what I have accomplished and what I can do as a teacher and it worked, I mean, One funny [00:16:00] story was when I was hired at that school in Kuwait. Yeah. I had an interview with a British lady. And because, you know, Kuwait was like the UAE, they work Sunday, to Thursday. So the interview was Sunday morning. But for Greece, Sunday's a day off. The previous night being out with friends, partying until three o'clock. I was also hosting some of my friends at my house.
[00:16:30] They were staying over the night. So like we do now our discussion. I was in my office and next to me on the bed that you cannot even see now, there were those two friends of mine sleeping, and I had that interview with that lady from Kuwait. He was so rigid [word not clear], he did not, even blink because when I do interviews, I sometimes say, okay, good things. Sometimes I try to be myself because I find that important. So I say something silly. I try to laugh. She was like, when I finished, my friends told me you will never get that job.
[00:17:18] Sorry. And 10 days later they offered me the job.
[00:17:27]Nyra: [00:17:27] Really? That is funny.
[00:17:29] Andreas: [00:17:29] So now I come from zero offers to 176 applications to four offers. Wow. I have to decide where to go. That decision was easy because I had a friend from university that she was working in Dubai. So I said, okay, from all of these countries, [00:18:00] I don't mind wherever I go. I mean, they're all new to me. So I said, what the hell? I would try UAE? Because at least I have my friends Stella there. So if something happens, I have a person there, you know, to help me support me or whatever. And this is how I came to the UAE. In Sharjah for my first two thirds of the year, because I resigned and I returned back home because I couldn't stand the system, not the country, but the international school system.
[00:18:45] The other thing that is very important in our schools is that although in our political system, we are awful as people in a democratic environment, Greek schools are very democratic, meaning that you want to take your students on a field trip. Okay. If 50% of the teachers, the last one wants to go there but the principal says, no, you go because the majority of the faculty is pro field trip, and everything in our system is being done through voting. Of course, we cannot do something illegal. Okay. The principal is there to say this you cannot do because it's illegal, but. We do. We, we talk together, and we do. For me when I was working two years in Dubai and my first year in Abu Dhabi, two years [00:20:00] ago, I stayed at school until even six, seven o'clock.
[00:20:04] I finished everything at school and then I went home. But when I went to the, when I came to this school last year yeah, for reasons unknown. I wanted to leave 2: 30, although I love my school. I don't know why I wanted to leave probably because I moved into a nicer apartment. I created, you know, a nice area for me to work. I have a nice view for my balcony. I have a pool, so now I live 2:31. I clock out. I go home, eat, go to my pool. Nap a little bit, but of course I work at night to finish my work. But if I have a meeting with someone, we do it at school. I mean, if it, if it needs to, for me to stay until 3:30/4, I have done, you know what I mean, priorities what you have to do.
[00:21:04]But I think that in the UAE, I agree with what you said before, because we have so many nationalities, mentalities and ways that we work from our countries have so many rules, regulations, and control, someone cannot really keep up with what is going on.
[00:21:26] Nyra: [00:21:26] Here's the next question I'm going to ask you. I want you to talk about your travels. your travels tell me some, one of the amazing travels that had a great, significant impact?
[00:21:40] Andreas: [00:21:40] No, here, I don't have a lot of things to say. I told you before that I come from a really poor family.
[00:21:53] Nyra: [00:21:53] Okay, go ahead. Sorry.
[00:21:55] I come from a very poor family. And my [00:22:00] parents were able only to build half built, a very small house in my mother's village.
[00:22:08] So my father was very anxious because in Greek culture, it is a custom for the parents to leave a house for the kids. And if parents cannot do that, it's a big pressure on them. So when I came to the UAE, I use the big, my, the majority of my salary. I used it. And in four years, I bought renovated and furnished a small one-bedroom apartment in the center of Athens. And used to see my father, when I signed this apartment, he was so proud because he knew that at least now I have a place of my own. It's very important for Greek culture to have that. So now that I finished with my house, because my parents told me that first you will be finished with your house and then you will help us now. I'm helping them to finish their own house, which of course, after they pass away, it will be mine. So I'm just finishing something that it will be mine in the future. That thing is in the middle of nowhere in a small town and it needs everything, the other one in Athens, it was an apartment.
[00:23:47] So I only have to buy the apartment and do the apartment. Now this is, this is a townhouse with a yard. So I have to finish the house and then finish [00:24:00] the yard, which I want to put also a swimming pool. It's not very common in Greece. It's considered a luxury. It's very expensive. So why I'm saying this is because as a teacher, I have many days off as you know, three weeks, Christmas, two weeks, March, and around seven weeks in the summer. Well, every summer I go back home, because I spend it with my friends. I go to concerts, to the movies. We go to the Greek islands. Then I go to my mother's village with my relatives and we have summer there. So summer, I don't feel going anywhere else now, March. I always stay in the UAE.
[00:24:53] Oh, okay. I didn't know that. All right.
[00:24:58] Andreas: [00:24:58] One Christmas. I stayed to the UAE and the other Christmas I go to Greece. And the only reason that I do that is because when I go back home, I spend a lot of money and at least for my first 10 years in the UAE money saving is the priority. So I still have four more years after that I will travel like a normal expat I have been three days to Kuwait and I will go three days in March to Oman. Have you even been to Omen?
[00:25:42] Oh Omen is Lovely!.
[00:25:44] And I have been one week no, no one month to Qatar. So those are the trips that I have done, but I can hear with a different purpose. So when [00:26:00] I finish this 10 years, six past four more to go after that, I will travel like any normal expats, but only March Christmas and summer I will always go home.
[00:26:17] Nyra: [00:26:17] Well, you know what, but you have a plan though. And so because of that, that's a plan, you know, it, to complete the home so that your parents can feel more at ease, that they left something to their kid. And you're the only child and everything falls on you. I understand if you had a sibling that you can share in the responsibility or something like that, but I understand it. And it's wonderful that you have an opportunity. Like this is where you have to speak your gratitude. Like. You know, for UAE having a place that's really fairly comfortable to live in. You see what I'm saying? And and you know, you have an employment you're in a nice apartment. You have friends, you know, and we're going to talk about our artistic endeavors
[00:27:02] Andreas: [00:27:02] In my living room. There is a small place on the wall where I have put the seven It's not really landmarks is an, I don't know the word in English is the seven emirates things that represents you know, one, every emirate right?, like one cock, other one is a fish you know, them, the sign that represents us. I'm talking of my appreciation to discount that because I wouldn't have my flat, we if I wasn't working here, so, and I was so proud when I renovated my flat for the two years, I didn't have money to buy furniture. I renovated. And for two years, My first summer, I stayed there with a water bed, a small hotel fridge and fan because it was summer. I [00:28:00] spent the first summer there. Then I bought a bed and an AC for two years.
[00:28:07] I stayed every time I went back home in my apartment with one bed, one hotel, fridge, and one AC. I stayed like that two years, but I didn't mind it was my place and I didn't care. Now I have bought everything. And when I, when I went this summer was the first time that
[00:28:28] Nyra: [00:28:28] fully furnished. You just bashed in all of your glory. We just felt it was home.
[00:28:34] Andreas: [00:28:34] That's why I'm saying, that's why I'm not really. I love to travel. Okay. When I was before the economic crisis, I have traveled. I've been to Germany, France, Sweden, Turkey, Cyprus, Taiwan Bulgaria, what else? Austria? I mean, I traveled, but now I came with a different purpose, so I can wait for 10 years as I told you. And after that I am free because I'm not planning of leaving of returning back home for the next 20, years
[00:29:12] Nyra: [00:29:12] . Okay. So you plan on staying in UAE.
[00:29:17] Andreas: [00:29:17] In the Greek. , if I go back home now, I told you our schools are 85% public. So in order to work, you have to follow some specific rules. The basic rule is the more you work the more points you get to work again to being hired based on the point system, the six years that I am abroad people that they were behind me in the point system I had. So now I cannot work in the three biggest cities of Greece. Now, if I go back home, I will go [00:30:00] to a small town. If I stay four more years. Then I will be sent to an, a remote area or something like that. which, if I'm 25, I don't mind working in a remote area in Greece when you are 50, you don't go to that kind of place to work. So the moment I left Greece, I knew. That I could never return back because of the way that our educational system works.
[00:30:31] So what I'm going to do is stay abroad. If I can stay in the UAE, I will stay here. If an opportunity occurs somewhere else, I will go somewhere else. The only reason that I will return back home is if I work. an American curriculum school in Athens, I am in some discussions with two American curriculum schools that we have in Athens, but not for now, maybe in five or 10 years, you know, we will see, we will see, but I don't mind. I'm okay with it. Now, the first two, three years, it was really hard. Because when I left, I didn't really realize that I left. You know what I mean? I mean, my first year as expat and because teachers have a lot of days off and I returned back home, I didn't realize that I'm leaving abroad. And because now with the internet and Facebook and Instagram, you are in total communication with your friends. I mean, I know whatever they do and they know whatever I do. It's like I'm being there with them and because I go twice a year, we arrange to do things together. So it doesn't really feel that I
[00:31:58]Nyra: [00:31:58] unattached or whatever. Yeah, [00:32:00] yeah, yeah.
[00:32:01] Andreas: [00:32:01] Yeah. So one of the reasons that I, I okay. Even if I had the money, I didn't want to save, I want to go home because it's not that I miss Thailand or Malaysia, which of course I want to visit at some point, but going home for 10 days and going to a restaurant with a friends or go for a drink or for a coffee or play with my nephews. This is so much more important to me, so I don't mind if I don't see Thailand, or Malaysia. I don't know if you, if you can understand what I'm saying. My people back home is much more important for me than.
[00:32:46] Nyra: [00:32:46] And that's just the stage. That's the stage we are in I'm the same way. Like summertime's I looked, it was all about family. It was all about friends. It was all about trying to reconnect, you know, physically be in the same space with these individuals, you know. Cause it is important, you know? So like my mom, like, well, you know, I am at my mother's house and This is the first time since the age of 21 that I've been with her this long. Yeah. So it was an adjustment, a big adjustment, but you know, because of the pandemic, I, wasn't not going to be here because, you know she's a senior citizen, you know, she's in that age range I didn't want her to be in harm's way.
[00:33:30] She needs, she needs supervision because she wants to hop out there and act like nothing is going on. And I'm like, yes, sit down, sit down. Yeah, this is hyper hyperactive. I see where I got my hyperactivity from. I got it from her, honestly. That is amazing. But you've given so much wealth of information. It's been unbelievable, like the contracts, [00:34:00] you know, the cultural clashes in the workspace work ethic. You know,
[00:34:07]Andreas: [00:34:07] I don't know if we ever discussed when we were in Dubai, but I work. I work, I volunteer for many, many years now in different NGOs back home. Okay. My first NGO was a cultural one. It had to do with tradition Greek tradition, how to preserve and and spread into the youth. My second one was an NGO that focused on Offering activities to teenagers during the weekends. So as not to spend the weekend in front of a screen, but to and it had games, theater, dancing you know arts and crafts, you know, things like that.
[00:35:04]This, it was in the city where I was studying. I stayed there. I told you 17 years when I return back to Athens. Before I come to the UAE, I started working to an NGO that helps people. H I V positive and their families. I was the volunteer for three years. My duties were when someone was at the hospital. Because either he was rejected by his or her family or the family didn't know about the HIV. I was there as a liaison with the doctors or support with them. While they were at the hospital, it was really difficult, but very I don't know, very. It felt it [00:36:00] felt good. And then I, I, I'm a volunteer since 2008 to Athens prides. I'm the stage manager there, even from the UAE I traveled for the weekend.
[00:36:21] When we have the pride [word not clear]. It's at the beginning of June, I take one day off Sunday and I fly Friday to Greece and I returned back home Sunday. This is this is an expense that I do. I mean, although I tried to find the cheapest flight, then I spend hours in transit. I go and I will always go. And because of this call of the LGBTQ community and I am a Sen teacher with two friends of mine, we created Three years ago and NGO LGBTQ people with disability the first and only so far NGO that connects those two words.
[00:37:09]And we got our first money from And the institution this year to create something. Anyway, although I am in the UAE, I am very active with these NGO also, this is also something that keeps me related with Greece. I mean, when I go, I always visit. The NGOs that I have volunteer tweets, I'm very happy that they still consider me a volunteer, although I'm far away and I may only offer them one day or two days a year. So this is something that I I have in mind. So I keep in track. . I tried to help as much as I can from abroad now with technology, you know, you can do so many things from the other side of the world. And [00:38:00] so this is something that I do apart. I mean, apart from being a teacher, I'm also volunteering in various NGOs that have to do with youth and human rights since I remember myself.
[00:38:17] Nyra: [00:38:17] Oh, that is amazing. All those wonderful non-profits and giving a service and going back home, you bringing, I think there's, would you say like, you know, what you cultivated in, in UAE has come with you also too? Those non-profits is some way. Cause like I was talking to some, a friend of mine, you know, she's Irish. And we worked at a school together in, in Dubai and we talked about how we're ambassador is we've become a little bit of an ambassador back in our home country because everybody has an idea about our people, Muslim people, you know, and , and so we feel like we have to re-educate there, their perspectives and shift their perspective. You know,
[00:39:07] Andreas: [00:39:07] the first thing that I did, and I was very proud when I came here, my second school was going to throw the old Arabic and Islamic books. Yeah, no, because they were having new ones. So I asked the principal if I can take them. And then I shipped them back home because you know that after 2015 since, now we have thousands of immigrants coming study from Syria and then Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, but they want to go to Europe for a better future. Right? And they are now blocked in Greece. The last six years, we have many people in there. We don't even know how to support them anymore. We have big problems with that. So when I first came here, I spoke with an [00:40:00] NGO and I sent them books. So as the kids the Muslim kids that they are in camps in Greece, they can still learn the language and things like that.
[00:40:12] Nyra: [00:40:12] That's wonderful.
[00:40:13]Andreas: [00:40:13] And of course, this is something that I bring back home. Now I have, you know, Greece is a 95% Christian country. And out of these 90, we have 5% Muslims. Out of these 95%, more than 85% are Christian Orthodox. Then we have a small percent that Athens. So we are very United in our religion. Also, we are one of the very few European countries that we haven't separated church from Spain. There are only three European countries. So church has a big saying. Even in the government, hopefully in the future anyway, so you can understand. And also, I come from Greece and Greece was 400 years. I'm their automatic occupation, which were Muslims.
[00:41:16] And we have abandoned now, but so many mosques in Greece that we have turned them into museums. Now. So I was brought up as a child and through our educational systems that the Turks/the Muslims are the enemy, the bad people. They came, they slaughter us, the enslaved us. They tried to make us forget what we believe. And many people in Greece still have a thing with Turkey. And they stretch it a little bit generally with the Muslim world. But when I [00:42:00] came here, you know, it really changed my perspective of some things about Muslims and Arabs. So especially when my, when my parents came, which I told you they were uneducated people, they don't. Use the internet. They only know what they know or what they hear from Greek TV or from their relatives. When they came here, I introduced them to some of my colleagues that they were Muslims and some of them were also covered. And I tried to explain to my father that don't feel offended, but don't give your hand to the lady.
[00:42:43] unless she does it first. Or if you want to have a beer, even at my house ask If she does have a problem, you are having a beer, you know, I think my father was a big thing.
[00:43:01] Nyra: [00:43:01] I, to hear him say, this is my house, I should be able to drink whatever I want.
[00:43:05] Andreas: [00:43:05] He was really open into it and very respectful, but I'm just saying now my mother, I have heard my mother in conversations in the family saying. Stop saying this crappy people about Muslims. I have met Muslims and they are, I don't see any difference with us. You know what I mean? And because this is what I say to my Muslim friends here. In Greece and apparently in a non-Muslim country ISIS because it's presented by the media, people completely identify ISIS as the mainstream Muslim you know, identity or something like that. So they want to kill us. They want to make a same [00:44:00] religion.
[00:44:00] They hate us, blah, blah, blah. And I see that in Greek media, you know what I mean? An idiot does something out of billions of Muslims. And then the Muslims are killing the people. You know what I mean? That's changed my perspective a lot. And I try as much as I can with Facebook groups and such when I read something ridiculous, I try to reply some of my friends say, why do you bother? And then I say, because you know, many Greeks or what do you know about Muslims, blah, blah, blah. Then I reply that not only I live six years in a Muslim country, but I have friends and acquaintances from Muslims from 17 different countries. For example, I don't know. How do you know from your living room? And the update, the outdated Greek history books about a war that happened 200 years ago, whatever. And my friends say, why do you bother? But then I say, if I don't try to say something that I have a different opinion, then how are things going to change? But yes, living here has changed a lot. My way of thinking.