In this episode, US Expat Ben Jones steers us down a less traditional pathway that starts with the interest in activism that led him through developing his own political astuteness across Asian land. He presents some alternate routes in finding ways to fill your altruistic endeavors while becoming debt-free.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jentleman.jones
In this episode, US Expat Ben Jones steers us down a less traditional pathway that starts with the interest in activism that led him through developing his own political astuteness across Asian land. He presents some alternate routes in finding ways to fill your altruistic endeavors while becoming debt-free.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jentleman.jones
Nyra [00:02:09] No, I'm always asking them, always inquiring. I always want to know exactly what gets a person to make the decision. What circumstances surrounded you that made the decision that you made the decision it's time for me. To move abroad and work abroad.
[00:02:29] Ben: [00:02:29] Right? Wow. That is the question. Isn't it? Yes. All right.
[00:02:33] Well, for me, you know, I had grown up as a kid who just always read every national geographic he could get his hands on and loved documentaries and I know that you are very much the same way. So you and I for your listeners really bonded. It became friends the very first time we met, I remember in Dubai and I always had that in my mind and it, I, I didn't become what you'd really call an ex-pat I guess, until I was 30, which was when I finally finished my bachelor's degree.
[00:03:06] But before that I had Several times saved up money and taken pretty lengthy trips abroad, and just always had that bug to see the world was really fascinated with society and culture around the world, particularly in the developing world. And, and also was very. My life really revolved a lot around political topics, particularly regarding US foreign policy in, in the middle East, in particular, in the developing world. So I had a previous ex-pat life, I guess you could call it where I would go abroad whenever I could afford it and do volunteer work and things of that nature. But those were shorter trips a couple of months at a time. So when I was 30 years old and I finished my bachelor's degree finally, having obviously taken an untraditional route being 30 when I graduated.
[00:03:54] But for the record I wasn't working on it for 12 years. I didn't start.
[00:03:58] Nyra: [00:03:58] Fuck. I miss no [00:04:00] judgment here. I graduated people who were like 60 something getting their bachelors for the first time, so whenever right time it gets the right timing, you know,
[00:04:08] Ben: [00:04:08] that's right. That's right. I didn't start till I was like 25 and had been doing other stuff before that. And like I said, really involved in activism and things of that nature. So when I graduated and was 30, I that's, when I guess I became what you could call an ex-pat and started taking overseas teaching contracts in English as a second language education. And did that for probably 12 of the following 14 years.
[00:04:36] And, and just less than a year ago now came back to America from you know that series of assignments or contracts around the world. So that, that was the bulk of my ex-pat life was from like 30 to 43, I guess. Yeah.
[00:04:53] Nyra: [00:04:53] But you, you know, when I met you, which was in Dubai among friends, mutual friends it was Dubai. Now I was with you during the course of. You know what, before I get into that, you mentioned something that I thought, I think I didn't realize that I would be hearing from you, which is that before you started college, you did all your, your need to your desire to be politically astute. In the world led you to taking all these voluntary volunteer jobs, you know, broad or stints, you know? And so I think, you know, some people who are just not quite sure would you say that would be a great way? Not necessarily, you know, if they're interested in politics, but in anything because I've met people who were. I don't know if it was for teach, not teach for America, but peace Corps like that, you know, people who were involved in that and they were there, you know, for arts or education, there were different aspects of the peace Corps, depending on [00:06:00] your interest that you could, you know volunteer and just have this experience to see if this is something you want to go further or, you know, Just have the experience, you know, altogether, would you say that would be a good entry one entry point?
[00:06:15] Ben: [00:06:15] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So, so two parts to that. I would encourage anyone to go do volunteer, work in the States or abroad if, if you know that. Their heart was in that and they wanted to do that. And a lot of those are self-funding things and that, that can be tricky, but if a person's in a position to do it, I mean what a great opportunity to learn a lot and hopefully contribute in some small way to whatever cause or country or area that that one has chosen to pursue for me, that largely revolved around Palestinian refugee issues in the early two thousands, when that was still the lead story every night on the news, as it was through our entire youth.
[00:06:56] I know you and I are about to say that was still the case then less so now, but that's something I got very into interested in and, and particularly because the more I learned about it the more, I saw the degree to which the U S funded what I saw as those injustices towards the refugee population there at the hands of the Israeli power structure.
[00:07:16] And the fact that we were funding it and protecting it at the UN level and stuff, diplomatically motivated me to feel even more indebted to perhaps try to contribute. And, and certainly I learned a lot more over there than I probably gave to them. And I think that's often the case when people go abroad to do volunteer work or something, we, we might benefit from it more than those.
[00:07:37] We hope to help, but hopefully that's a two-way street. So I would certainly encourage to do anyone to do that. And, and in terms of the peace Corps thing, I had loads of colleagues over the years. Once I became an ESL teacher who had started that route. Via the peace Corps ESL teacher, like if you had any bachelor's degree, I think a lot of the people would non-specific skills.
[00:07:59] Like if they're [00:08:00] not an agriculture or medical background and they're joining the peace Corps, a lot of them get funneled into ESL and a lot of those people go on to careers in ESL. So, yeah. And I would also say joining the peace Corps or if one could get an apprenticeship with, I don't know, the united nations, high commission for refugees or whatever their particular passion was that could certainly lead to a career at the, at the diplomatic level, at the aid level. Whether it was through the UN or international NGOs, including the large ones, like, you know, save the children and I don't know, Catholic charities and they exist all over the world
[00:08:33] UNICEF. Yeah. Right.
[00:08:35] Indeed, indeed. So that, I would say if people have a passion for these topics, there actually is a way to even make a living while doing it. And in retrospect, I might've pursued that option had I, you know, no regrets, but that, that would be a perfectly good route for someone to contribute to the things you care about while, while still making an honest salary that allows you to move home when you're ready to and not be. You know, moving home at flat broke when you're 50 or something, that's a great route
[00:09:07] Nyra: [00:09:07] I want to move into, because I think you're so interesting. Like what I was saying, what I was starting to say before is that when I met you, you know, obviously you were working in Dubai, you were a teacher, blah, blah, blah. But you made a decision based off a friend, a friend you had that worked for, worked at NATO compound in Afghanistan, and you decided to apply and move towards working what you knew. And I want you to describe, first of all, how you came to that decision, why was that appealing for you? What was some of your incentives in doing it? You know? Yeah, I guess there.
[00:09:50] Ben: [00:09:50] All right. Well, I'll be happy to do that. Yeah. So I was in Dubai for four years when I knew you, I was a. English as a second language teacher at that point, [00:10:00] I'd done a master's degree. So it was pretty well up in my field and getting pretty good jobs. My boss there had once worked for NATO in Afghanistan as part of the NATO and you know, really American, but NATO effort in Afghanistan teaching English to Various Afghan civilians and military people who needed to learn English in order to receive training and whatever their job was going to be from European or American trainers.
[00:10:28] So when he told me about that, I was very interested because I was quite ready to move on from Dubai at the time and knew that I was probably coming relatively to the end of my at least that chapter of my ex-pat life, like I said, it was basically 14 years and thought that would be a pretty exciting way to finish it up. And that also, it was a chance to contribute to something that, again, my country was very much directly involved in, I was never in the military or worked for the government. So I had not made those sorts of contributions or however one wants to look at that, but I like the idea of it. And to be honest, it was quite lucrative.
[00:11:11] And I was doing all right in my field, but not saving a lot of money on the idea of moving home and trying to buy a house or any, anything, you know, I'm 44 years old. It's not a crazy thought to be trying to do that. Right. You know, essentially to buy my freedom as it were. So the lucrativeness or the paycheck was quite appealing as well. Although that wasn't the whole thing, but due to the hazard and hardship and the danger of being in a place like that, it played, it paid like more than triple what my job in Dubai did. So I knew that it would be a cloistered and intense and pretty in many respects unpleasant experience, which, which I'll certainly.
[00:11:51] Proved to be true. And but it, it was a, for a, for an English teacher, a pretty life-changing amount of money and a chance to help out what are [00:12:00] probably at this point in terms of nation, state, citizenship, the, you know, most oppressed people in the world. I mean, it's the weakest passport in the world. It's probably the worst amongst the very worst economies in the world. Public safety, physical safety civil society I mean, it felt good. The idea of making some small contribution to that. So that was a rare opportunity for me to do good. I hope while doing well fiscally, and that's probably the only time in my life. I ever really found that balance and managed to do that. So I, I it took 17 months to get hired. It's really hard to get a job like that. You're going through all these medical and government backgrounds and security clearances and things like that. Because once you get there, you're ultimately going to be living in a barracks alongside soldiers and expected to, you know, not carry a weapon or anything, but to participate the way you're told to.
[00:12:52] And for example Armed motorcades and things of that nature and be ready to stay in good health and to listen to the instructions of your bodyguards, who in my case were US military for the first year and a half. I was there not like I had personal bodyguards, but our team was guarded by what we called guardian angels, that small team of US soldiers. And then the last year I was there, we had Czech special forces from the Czech Republic. For any of your listeners who aren't sure what NATO is. It's essentially liked a United nation of Europe that was created after world war II to stand together in opposition to the Soviet union's encroachment into Europe.
[00:13:30] So you're talking about the wealthier countries of Western Europe, America and more recently the newer democracies, like the Czech Republic and places like that. So I managed to get that job and well, I'll just wait for your next question then before,
[00:13:47] Nyra: [00:13:47] Yeah go ahead, like, you know, like the, so what I hear is like the intention was you want it to have some financial gain and be able to buy a house and, and get out of certain debt and student debt. [00:14:00] You know, encroaching on all of everybody's pockets.
[00:14:04] Ben: [00:14:04] And I remember you and I have been some long talks about that.
[00:14:10] Nyra: [00:14:10] And, you know, I almost feel upset that I didn't follow up, you know but it was it's. Okay.
[00:14:17] Ben: [00:14:17] You know I tried to get you; you remember that?
[00:14:21] I know , I
[00:14:23] Nyra: [00:14:23] know it was just like this whole trying to make a decision that in another track that I was trying to stay on, you know,
[00:14:32] Ben: [00:14:32] I think you've done very well.
[00:14:36]Nyra: [00:14:36] I think so, you know, probably not as great financially as you have, but you know, well,
[00:14:41]Ben: [00:14:41] there's a lot of trade-offs there. Believe me. That was a long two and a half years.
[00:14:46] Yeah.
[00:14:47] Nyra: [00:14:47] So but you know, it's so crazy to, to hear you talk about that and, and watch it go through that process and actually actualize on your goal. You know, you are debt free. That should be. And yeah. And you have a home, it's not two homes in Austin.
[00:15:09] Ben: [00:15:09] That's right. I have two and I rent them both out. I mean, they're more like investments, but that was like the big financial move I was able to make with that NATO job in Afghanistan over the course of two and a half years. So I'm very grateful for that. Yeah. I mean, not very many years ago, less than five years ago, I was drowning in student debt. Really worried about my future and you know, I'm not a materialistic person or a money person, but the reality is we all need some. And I just wasn't getting to where I needed to be at that rate. And you can do the math and see where you're going to be three or four years later and wasn't adding up. So I was ready for a radical move and I was lucky that that opportunity as challenging.
[00:15:46] Excuse me challenging and often unpleasant as it was in Afghanistan. There are just times where you're ready to go through about anything to realign yourself and live the life that you want. You know, [00:16:00] so it was well worth it to me, not for everybody that's for sure. But I was. Grateful for the chance. You know, it was like going to work on the Alaska pipeline in the seventies or something. Nobody thought it was going to be a lot of fun, but if they could go out there and tough it out for two or three years, they'd go home and buy a house. So it was kind of like a white collar Alaskan pipeline or something.
[00:16:20] Nyra: [00:16:20] Having had all the experiences. If you had abroad in different work environments and stuff, what would you say you would take? What's the one thing you would take with you or you've probably have taken with you? If you were to come back and work in your home country.
[00:16:36] Ben: [00:16:36] Oh, you mean like some sort of understanding or asset or skill that I might've attained.
[00:16:43] Nyra: [00:16:43] It could be a skill; it could be an understanding. It could be, you know, a philosophical takeaway, you know. Yeah.
[00:16:50] Ben: [00:16:50] Wow, what a good question. I don't know if I've ever thought about that in terms of trying to think of a singular answer, but I'm sure it would be the privilege and the just internal benefit of having what I, what I hope is perspective of a global citizen and a thriving intellectual life within my own mind. All of which has benefited from and been fed by these various experiences. And it is, you know, I just talked about how Afghanistan was, was quite challenging. And I'm sure that surprises no one, but the larger message I would have about ex-pat life is how fascinating it is. And not everywhere as Kabul, Afghanistan, where you have to live in a barracks. You know what I mean? It's fascinating. Series of interactions seeing the way that other societies might do something better. And as we referred to earlier, appreciating how we might do something better back at home and, and having a deeper appreciation for my own home country. [00:18:00] Although I am still a critic in a.
[00:18:03]Poker of the bear [word not clear] for sure. And I always will be, but there's no doubt about the point you made earlier about the gratitude one feels for personal freedom when they come home. So yeah, I guess having the perspective of all those experiences, being able to pretty seamlessly do a project or have a conversation on an airplane or whatever with people from all walks of life. I mean, that, that comes pretty effortlessly at this point. And I'm sure it does for you too. So what, what a great thing to carry into life and, and if some of my friends or family in the States ever benefit from some of my thoughts that I gleaned from those experiences. Then, then all the better, you know I sure gleaned a lot from those experiences and I'm always grateful for it.
[00:18:48] And there's something to be said just for the spirit of adventure and youth, and going to see the world. I mean, that's as old as timely [word not clear] memorial and, and I will never regret having sort of rolled those dice.
[00:19:02] Nyra: [00:19:02] I want to ask you kind of a unconventional, even though you've kind of loosely talked about it, but I'm gonna be more specific. So I consider you a global, we talk about global citizen citizenship. I have global connector, and I want you to think of something, a situation or an experience you've had where you had a global connecting experience and your interpretation. I give it too much definition.
[00:19:34] Ben: [00:19:34] I have the perfect example. And I think I wrote about it on Facebook when it happened. So another great part of ex-pat life is great vacations, as I'm sure you've enjoyed a lot too, because when you're already in the neighborhood, it's pretty cheap to go to some of these places that would seem and not just seem, but maybe be an achievably expensive to get to from home for, for normal folks.
[00:19:56] So living in Dubai, you can get to [00:20:00] half the world for like three or $400. And that's when I explored Eastern Europe and a lot of the former Soviet republics and really enjoyed that. So I remember being in Armenia late at night at a bar with a couple of kids from the hostel one was Australian and one or two were from Northern Europe and we ended up having drinks and talking the whole night with Armenians.
[00:20:24]That's where we were and Iranians who you don't meet much for various diplomatic reasons and limitations out on the sort of backpacking or traveling trail. Iranians don't have much access to that. And we are not allowed to go there. And these Iranians were you know, probably from upper class families or something spoke good English and, and we talked the whole night about well, the relatively obvious topic of hostilities between our countries and the frustration of them as they just really wanted to be part of the free world and be able to go around and do whatever we wanted. And for them, it was quite a cool, just to have gotten, to go to Armenia and go to this bar.
[00:21:07] And the females were in the group as well. I mean, that's a lot different from their life at home. So I just remember us having solved all the world's problems that night over quite a few drinks. I mean, people from Europe, myself as an American and Aussie, Armenians And Iranians all sitting together as pleasant as one could be and what a profound reminder of the obvious, but often overlooked reality that people around the world are fundamentally the same. And that the complications that divide us are more often than not political machinations from our ruling classes that don't work to anyone's benefit besides their own. And here I was with these perfectly lovely [00:22:00] Iranians are our big, scary enemy having, you know, drinks in a smoky bar in Armenia. And that, that, that was a moment that I always really appreciated among many others.
[00:22:09] I mean, that's the beauty of ex-pat life, especially in a city like Dubai, where 90% of the people are foreigners that might shock your listeners. That's a real statistic. 90% of the people in the city of Dubai are foreign workers like us. That was pretty common to go out to the bar on the weekend and, and meet somebody from Palestine or other parts of the middle East, or certainly people from East Africa. Folks you might not always rub elbows with and, and what a humanizing and beautiful thing. I treasured that about all those years abroad and especially in Dubai, because it was just a clearing house of people. From anywhere you could imagine. I remember knowing a woman there from Papa, new Guinea places that you just would hardly ever hear from how fascinating that is
[00:22:54] Nyra: [00:22:54] That is it, right? Like just having closure and that people are the best passports and, you know, we bring. We bring it all, you know, and that's why I think even black Americans, need to travel even more just because they changed it, they'll change the narrative. They'll change the dialogue. You know, that, that people are not resting on a narrative that was given to them, which is how a lot of us, many people, even in the United States are also.
[00:23:26] being educated, you know, by one source that has an agenda instead of going out there to acquire their own knowledge and, or connecting with somebody that says, you know, that is just not it. You know? So like when that whole thing happened at Iran, I went on Facebook. I was like, let me tell you, Iranians are the most giving and hospitable people I've. Ever ever met, they couldn't stop feeding me. Right. They couldn't stop talking. They're [00:24:00] very, very social social group, you know, and they have some of the most beautiful calligraphy, you know, Arabic. You know, and I said, you know, please do not believe because somebody out there is grabbing hold of that information and moving on, you know, on the information.
[00:24:21] Ben: [00:24:21] Oh that was for Sure. True. I couldn't agree more. And I, I know that you made the point originally in reference to African Americans. I would say that's probably pretty true for other groups of American, any group of Americans, how much they might benefit from a twist in the narrative. You know, even though we come from a pretty free country, we to have our own misconceptions and national myths, I would say national myths is a big part of it.
[00:24:44] That, that even pretty reasonable people in our country believe in perhaps to the detriment of moving the ball down the field in terms of human freedom and political success and liberation and, and we are no exception to that. And not my place to speak, particularly to the point of African-Americans, but I will say in my years, abroad. I was very pleased to see more and more black Americans in that life and teaching at international schools abroad or working in banks or whatever they were doing in Dubai. And the same was true for the three years I spent in Korea. And I think that's super cool. And I would, I would hope everybody could, regardless of their background or race or whatever, could See this as a valid, a valid option for themselves, which it is because despite our problems where we're all quite privileged to have an American passport and things of that nature, and that does allow us pretty easy access to the ex-pat life.
[00:25:39] That is the focus of your show. I mean, it is very doable and that would be less true if we were from Bangladesh or something like that. So an American passport and is a great asset to all of us. I'm sure. And people might not know anybody that's ever done it, not having an example to follow, but that's where your show [00:26:00] comes in and, and the, the options are real.