In this week's episode, I talk with the Founder of TheBlackExpat.com, Amanda Bates, who offers us a point of view that only a Third Culture Kid can give. From balancing out the racism conversation to using the main stage for Diversity and Inclusion discussions to addressing the mid-career expat dream struggle. In addition, she affirms her mission in amplifying the black expat voice by presenting it as an everyday human experience shunning the novelty idea that it is a rare occurrence.
Website: https://www.TheBlackExpat.com
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/theblackexpat
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theblackexpat/
In this week's episode, I talk with the Founder of TheBlackExpat.com, Amanda Bates, who offers us a point of view that only a Third Culture Kid can give. From balancing out the racism conversation to using the main stage for Diversity and Inclusion discussions to addressing the mid-career expat dream struggle. In addition, she affirms her mission in amplifying the black expat voice by presenting it as an everyday human experience shunning the novelty idea that it is a rare occurrence.
Website: https://www.TheBlackExpat.com
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/theblackexpat
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theblackexpat/
Nyra: Take us from the beginning, the beginning of where you're from.
[00:02:25] And you know, what landed you outside of your native country? Yeah,
[00:02:30] Amanda: [00:02:30] I mean, for me, the story has to start like way in the beginning, like birth and I'm not, I am not young anymore, but I, you know, I'm also, Oh, I've got some years on me. And so yeah. First of all, thank you for having me on here. I love talking about. You know, life abroad and international lives and kind of these connections, but I have an interesting story in the sense that, so I was born in DC. So, grew up in the mid-Atlantic. I had parents who immigrated or expat ed, depending on who's wielding the political term from the country of Cameroon, which if you know anything about Africa, it is to the East of Nigeria.
[00:03:11] So if you look at the fat part of Africa and then it has that, you know, that corner and it drops down Cameroon connects that fat part to the rest of it. So it's, it's kind of the start Central Africa, but still very much West Africa. And so my, my family is real interesting. They came to the U S in the seventies and they are Anglophone.
[00:03:32] And I always mentioned that because most people who know Cameroon know Cameron is a French speaking country, but we're actually part of the English minority. And so they moved here and, you know, like a lot of folks post-colonialism opportunities, education, all of that stuff. But when I was at the age of nine, they decided they wanted to repatriate. And so when I was nine years old, my family for them, they moved back for me. I moved for the first time to Cameroon. And [00:04:00] what was fascinating in that experience is that, remember, I just said, my family is Anglophone, but they moved to the capital city, which is Francophone. So nobody, in my family had lived there.
[00:04:10] So when I was about nine years old, my family moved up. You know, decided to repatriate back to Cameroon first time for me living there and they moved to the French speaking spot. So it was new for all of us because none of us spoke French. None of us had lived in the capital city. I had lived in Sub-Saharan Africa. And that was my first major, I would say, major international move because I had made moves as a kid, you know, and I was still a kid domestically in the U S but I'd never really lived outside the country. And so. I lived in Cameroon until I was 17, graduated from high school and came back to the US which is a whole other story, kind of transitioning back.
[00:04:53] And then like a lot of folks who've kind of grown up as a third culture kid, you know, did a lot of international travel was really interested in that. But then later on in my career, I decided to move to the middle East for a bit, just to get a different experience and go to a part of the world that I'd never lived in. So I got to Doha in a really interesting way. And. And I always like to say this, because I think when people think about going abroad, there's always this one way they think of, but I always think there's so many ways that you know, that weird adage, there's so many ways to skin a cat. I'm just kind of gross to say, but there are so many ways to get abroad.
[00:05:32] And so I had been working with college access for about nine years and I, during that time had gone back to school, got a master's in business and then decided to get a master's in ed with a focus on counseling. And I had, you know, obviously it had an international bent love, travel, love, diversity, and basically said, you know, found an opportunity to go and, and finish out what I was doing in my master's degree. And still [00:06:00] work and get experience. And so I moved to Doha to launch a career counseling center program at the, at the Qatar campus of the university. I was getting my degree. So they had a campus abroad and it took a lot of finagling and a lot of working and like getting all the details straight.
[00:06:23] But I took that opportunity to go to Doha and, and part of the reason I was excited about it, as it, as I said, I had never been to Asia at all as a continent. And then I certainly had never been to the middle East. And it just presented the opportunity. It was like a good transitional opportunity for me, if you will, because I think I was at that place in my career where. I had, you know, I was director of, of a program. I had been there for, like I said, almost literally, I left two weeks short of being there 10 years. Right. Which is a long time to be in a spot. And I just felt like, okay, I need to figure out what's next. And this is a really good way to sort of use what's happening in my education as well as what's happening in my career to go abroad.
[00:07:11] And so I went there, and you know, I like to say Qatar was like familiar and not familiar in a lot of ways. Because when I grew up, you know, growing up in Cameroon made a lot of parts of the world, familiar to me, even though I hadn't been to those places yet. So when I went to Brazil for the first time, there were things that I could relate to things I'd seen in Cameroon and right. And so when I went to Qatar, for example, it was the same way where, you know, Cameroon has a very large Muslim population, so that Cameroon does it here to Muslim holidays as well as Christian holidays. So being in Qatar, there was some familiarity having grown up. Around, for example, Islam. Right. In, in the community I was in, like, there were certain things that were not different to me.
[00:07:54] Right. Like was not foreign. Yeah. Yeah. Like call to prayer. Right. That was super [00:08:00] common. Right. I didn't anticipate like being like literally next door to a mosque where
[00:08:06] Nyra: [00:08:06] like my friend who had literally had the mosque, the oh, my God. Good God. Oh my gosh. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Her part was literally open up a window and touching the building. It was all super close. Yeah. So she was like call the prayer with a microphone or a speaker. The speaker was right there. She did. She was like, man, Oh my goodness. She's like
[00:08:51] Amanda: [00:08:51] Qatar. But then in, in so many ways Qatar was different because, you know, I had known Islam predominantly through a black lens, like a full lot being, living in an African country. Right. So I knew it through a black lens and I knew through an African lens, I didn't know it through an Arab lens. And so that, that was unique for me. And then just even. I mean, it's, it's different, right? I mean, desert everywhere, fight. I've lived in the desert before. I'd never lived that kind of desert. He like, I'd never known. And just even culturally, you know, the relationships between men and women were different, but it was, it was a nice, sometimes you need a knife jarring experience to what's going on to them and not live life. That's I think that's what Qatar really said it for me. And, and I, and I'll back up and say, Part. So the black ex-pat kind of also came out right before the season, because I told you I was working in college access working with first gen students.
[00:09:54] So first ones in their families to go to college or go onto some kind of trade school, which [00:10:00] 95% of them were black and Brown. And I was going, and I said, Hey, y'all should study abroad when you get to college. And they would all say, but miss Amanda, I'll look at it. I don't know anybody like me who studies, who lives abroad and listening to the military. And I kept thinking, how can you, cause I grew up around black people who traveled and did all this stuff. Right. And so I'm like, what do you mean? You only know black people who are in the military. And so. Part of the reason the site came about was to sort of answer that question of representation, right?
[00:10:28] Like when you see yourself, then you see the possibilities. And so I kind of built it and then it's funny. I started building the site and then I also started figuring out maybe I should go to Qatar at the same time. And so that's, that's how those both kind of came about.
[00:10:42] Nyra: [00:10:42] Is that the only country you lived at, where did you go from there?
[00:10:46] Amanda: [00:10:46] I came back to the US. And so it was real interesting. I was ready to go to a couple other places and it wasn't working out, which is, I also talk to people about stuff not working out. I was really looking really hard to go to a neighboring country and it just like the opportunity. Wasn't working out. And so, but here's the thing about me and I think it's also kind of important to know. Is that just because I came back though, remember international experiences have always been part of my story. So I'm never far from being in a different country, right. Whether it's travel or whatever.
[00:11:30] And so I ended up coming back. And I was just trying to figure myself out. And I was looking at a couple of other places and at this time I'm working in higher ed and I was trying to figure out, well, what's a really good fit for me. And so I'm doing that and I'm also simultaneously running the black ex-pat. Right. Which is really interesting because I'm not an ex-pat, but I know way too much about the ex-pat experience. And so I ended up coming back to the Southeast, which is where my family's in Virginia. And [00:12:00] then ended up coming back to North Carolina, where I am currently,
[00:12:04] Nyra: [00:12:04] you started to talk about the black ex-pat, which I love. And thank you so much for letting me write on there and have a platform. I believe the work you're doing with the black expat, but I want to know the origins of that. What made you start that and when and all of that?
[00:12:19] Amanda: [00:12:19] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing about me is that I. Like, I'm always about the underrepresented. Right. And I'm always about the possibilities. And, and when the black ex-pat started, there was kind of this merging of two things. And one of them, I learned, I alluded or mentioned earlier about how I'm working with black and Brown kids. And I'm saying, I want you to study abroad when you get to college and for them, because they hadn't had access, they didn't, they couldn't see themselves doing it. And, you know, and I think back about that moment, I think about all the time, how, when we see media and we see people going abroad, we don't see black and Brown folks. We see the young white woman who goes to Paris for a holiday. Or Germany or goes backpacking somewhere or eat, pray, love, right? Cause there, you know, a white woman who's changing her life or whatever.
[00:13:20] Occasionally we'll see white men, you know, who go to South America wherever, but we never see in media, a black person who leaves Canada and goes to Melbourne Australia or Accra Ghana, right. Or Stockholm. So that was the first thing is that we. We aren't represented. And the only time you often see black and Brown people leaving and, and we are very inclusive in our blackness. So it's not just black American, but any time you tend to see black people leaving in a movie internationally it's centered around pain and conflict. It's generally around war. [00:14:00] Right or it is, they had to leave. There was some kind of tension or conflict and they had to leave it. It is not the lighthearted choice that often shapes the white story.
[00:14:12] And so, so that was a big part of it. The other part of it was that I thought about the generation that was like my mom, my mom, who was part of those generation of black folks who left their countries during post-colonialism. And so for many Africans, that's their story for many folks from the Caribbean, right? When you think about the Windrush generation and you think about, you know, people leaving the islands, going to New York, right. Going to Jersey, go into to new England, going to the UK. Right. And, and, and starting their lives. I've thought about how. As much as we right now here, black travel movement and whatnot.
[00:14:54] I kept thinking, man, there were black people moving before there was internet and before it was cool and before it was even safe. Right. And so really starting to, and that's something that I hope that we start to even do more of is the stories of our folks who been doing this right. And who who've been doing it when there was no internet to shout it from the rooftops, they were doing it to reinforce this idea that it was completely normal, completely typical. And that our migration stories are not always rooted in pain. And so that's, that was what the backdrop that I started with, which is why I tell people there's a big reason why you see a lot of photos right on the front, on the homepage. Because as you know, it's February, it's almost the end of February.
[00:15:43] We launched in February of 2016. So this is our fifth year unintentionally launched in black history month in the US . But you know what, here it is, right. Frederick Douglas, birthday, and our launching. But anyway, you know, we launched and [00:16:00] part of the reason. I have those photos is that it's true. Like people are visual creatures. And so people always note when they go to the homepage, especially when they look at it on the desktop, they're like, Oh my gosh, people ask me all the time. Where did you get all these black people? And I said, guess what? A good majority of these photos are not stock.
[00:16:25] These are actual people that I have spoken to and they have shared their visuals. And so just even, you know, when you look at the site that alone for some people was enough, it was just normal like,
[00:16:40] Nyra: [00:16:40] Oh my God. Yeah, we exist. We're out here.
[00:16:45] Amanda: [00:16:45] So there's a reason why the site is particularly clean. There's a reason why. You don't see a crazy amount of, of, of things kind of flashing well, part of it's tech, but you see a lot of stuff flashing because I don't want it to distract from the narrative. And the narrative is that we do this irrespective of where we start in the world. Irrespective of why we're doing it. We do this.
[00:17:11] Nyra: [00:17:11] Right. Exactly. That's it. And we, we are existing and and I think, and still not in droves. But enough to make a, to make an entrance. You know what I'm saying? Like w w we're there were, you know, it's not like, you know, like one person here and two people there, like the token expat black ex-pats like, no, there, we were actually spread about enough to make you know, we've made an appearance, you know, now whether you actually. Paid attention. That's a whole another thing.
[00:17:56] That's the part that's always so funny to be with people. Go number one, like [00:18:00] first of all, I, I have a joke. I was always, always hear this from the Nigerians, right? If a Nigerian ate bear [word not clear] that aint a place, you as a black person, or try to go and Nigerians are everywhere. So that's the first thing, because I'm like, Hey, you know, somebody in this random country, I'm like, all right, then we can make this work.
[00:18:23] But the thing is that. The truth of the matter is, is that we've never historically no one's ever really focused on black people moving. So they don't even know they, they don't know how many black people have moved from all kinds of places. And then the other part is once again, this fact that our narrative, like, I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that the narrative, like if we look at black America right now, I get asked all day long on articles. Like, you know, well, especially with what happened with George Floyd, right at his murder are more and more black Americans leaving because of racism or are they leaving because of this or leaving because of, you know, it's always around racism and I'm like, well, first of all, here's the thing. Racism exists everywhere.
[00:19:09] And most black people are smart enough to know that. Right.
[00:19:12] Amanda: [00:19:12] But the racism is very different.
[00:19:14] Nyra: [00:19:14] So I don't. So, so here's the thing, when I say that racism in terms of racism, absolutely. The way it's melted out completely different than it is in other places. Right. We've I mean, we all see this on television at this point. I think people who didn't know now they know. Right. I think especially after this last year, but it's this narrative though, right. As if that's the only reason, it's certainly a factor for some black Americans. But for other black Americans, they really were like, you know what? I want to go somewhere because I really want to learn German.
[00:19:47] And that's what I want to do. And so that's what I mean by our narrative. Why does it always have to be met, like married with pain? It's never just, we went somewhere for whatever reason, right? Because no one ever [00:20:00] asked white people why they left. They could have valid reasons. Right. And it could have been married with pain. Right. But no one ever asks or makes the assumption. And that's the part where I, where I feel the tension is that you assume to know why different white, different groups of black people move based on some of the information, you know, or you've heard, or you assume, but it's not necessarily the case for everyone.
[00:20:23] Amanda: [00:20:23] I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's just not the case. And I think. It's always, it's the perception. It's the, again, it's the, the old narrative that just been able to hang around for a very long time. And even with the, the progress of different. You know, I mean the many different pro we don't even have to go into there with all the many different, you know progress and accomplishments of, of, you know, black Americans, just, you know, black people in general around the world. It's still kind of like this, you know, but they're the exception or it's not the norm. You know, and the point that you made about no one ever asked that, you know, it's like, why are you out here? Why are you here? No, it, you know, that we're fearful group and we don't go out of our community. Like in any ethnic group, you will find a group of people who do not leave their community.
[00:21:20] You know what I'm saying? It's just, it's just a person. It's, it's just the human, you know what I'm saying? Like some humans just don't want to leave their comfort zone. It's not a black thing. Right, right.
[00:21:32] Nyra: [00:21:32] It's a human thing. . I love the fact that you said. Intellectually curious. Right? Like I just, I think the thing that always the thing that ultimately bothers me is often just this assumption about what black people will or will not do. Right. And why they do it. And I think when we look at. Black communities around the world that have suffered under [00:22:00] colonialism and imperialism and anti-blackness and racism. What, right. It's always a system of, well, this is what, whoever the majority privilege does. Right. But this is not something that's afforded to you. And so. This idea that I love, like, you know, this past week was Valentine's day, week, right. And Valentine's day. And, you know, we, we, we, you know, I said, let's just do a little quick, let's feature, a couple of folks who are black, who moved abroad and either found love abroad or moved.
[00:22:32] Or moved abroad because of luck. You know what I mean? Like their loved paths, right? Because truly, truly who talks about the black love path? Nobody like the fact that's my bad even said that term. And people looked at me and went, wait a minute. I said, It happened. Like I seen this all the time. Once again, I read it right away, too many ex-pat circles, but I see this all the time in white spaces, but now all of a sudden it's like revolutionary that a black person moved abroad for love or found love abroad.
[00:23:02] Amanda: [00:23:02] Like these, these are also white people move abroad. It isn't just, they didn't necessarily plan it. They met someone. And so for me, I think it is, it is super important and it's super key that as a site, we continue to show these diverse experiences because by showing these diverse experiences, what we allow people to do is see that blackness is not monolithic.
[00:23:32] That's probably my biggest takeaway from this whole thing with the site is that if you can understand that the black experience is not monolithic and black people are not monolithic and that they make the same different choices that other groups make. Then I think we're getting somewhere.
[00:23:48] Nyra: [00:23:48] . I want to dive into, because we, we kind of loosely talked in our initial conversation about the professional, the black professional. And you said there was this demographic that, [00:24:00] that you that moves through the black ex-pat, who are curious, he's the people who are not expats yet, but have a curiosity around it
[00:24:09]
[00:24:09] Amanda: [00:24:09] Really interesting time where. You know, because of social media, because of the internet, a lot more things are more visible to everyone and. One of the things I think we're seeing in the black expat is I, you know, I've been in this thing long enough, I've done a lot of different things and it's fascinating where I'm, you know, in terms of, if you're a young person, so, you know, I'm putting you in that 18 to 25, 18 to 27 range, you're seeing a lot of resources and a lot of conversations for them. Right. Just go abroad, teach English, do all of that. And that's totally cool. And I support that. I think where, where we're not seeing as much conversation is those, those folks who are in their prime working years. Right. So they're not at the retirement level. They are anywhere between, and they could be in their late twenties at this point, but they're firmly established in whatever careers they are creating for themselves.
[00:25:04] Right. And so thirties, forties, fifties, right. Especially where. They have a very particular career identity. And, and I always gravitate towards that because full disclosure, I'm also a career counselor. So I spent a lot of times talking about employment, but they have a particular career identity. They are very firm in knowing what their skills are. And quite frankly, they may be at the stage where they could be singled or partnered up. They may have dependence. Right. And they are the ones who, I think. Really need a lot of the ex-pat guidance and the coaching, because you know, this it's a little bit easier when you're 25 to pick up and say, all right, I'm going to go be a digital nomad in Bali, right?
[00:25:49] Like everyone's doing, but, but to be 35 with two little kids and both you and your partner are established in your industry, those are the ones [00:26:00] where I think they think about it, but they're not necessarily sure how to go about it. And they're not necessarily sure how to go about it in a way that makes financial sense for them. So they, at that point have an established way of life. Right? Cause once again, I'll know your twenties where mine were kind of raggedy. My life looks very different than I did when I was like 25, 26, 24, whatever. And so I think that going abroad, if you can make it work has been completely life-changing and has been.
[00:26:35] Amazing for that category of people, but they're often the ones who don't get, they don't get all their questions answered. Right. Because they they've got questions like, okay, what schools do I put my kids in? How do I still make sure I have retirement? How do, how do my skills, you know, if I'm in the, in Canada or I'm in the States and I'm going to like Switzerland, you know, how does this work? And so they're the ones that's often really need the help and the guidance and getting the pieces together. So I think the challenge is that. It's just it's an any person's game, but the marketing is just really hyped towards young people, because to be honest, it's really easy to have a conversation going abroad with someone who's young because they haven't started their career.
[00:27:17] Right. If you actually. They have it, they are, and they're still in the try and explored whatever. But when you're old, when someone has started to kind of build roots or kind of build a foundation to their career and their life personal professional, it actually, I think it takes people who understands. But you kinda, you have to understand two parts. So you have to understand sort of the professional person and you also have to understand the personal right. And so professional is the very base, just from a basic level. What is it that you do? What is it that you can’t do? What is the industry you want to be in?
[00:27:54] And then what are the opportunities that can take you to take what you do? And so, one of the [00:28:00] things I always advise with my folks who, who honestly already have a career. Is a big thing is start with your professional associations? So if you're an engineer, if you're a type of engineer or you are a type of, I dunno, you're a chemist or some type of an exec or whatever, actually start with that. Like, it's amazing to me, how many people don't really think about that, but I'm like, well, If you're in a professional association and especially if you're in an industry that has a, quite a reach internationally, you're either going to find an opportunity that is, you know, in your industry somewhere else.
[00:28:36] Or you may even find if you start with your HR office, if you've got offices around the world, you may find opportunities within an ecosystem professional ecosystem you're already in, because remember I got to Qatar because I was already at VCU. And then I, I was learning about the fact that VCU had a presence in the middle East. So that's how I was able to get over there. And so a lot. Yeah, a lot of times that's, you know, we, we, we think about it doing domestically. If so, if you live in a country where, you know, there are multiple offices of whatever you're doing, right. So you think about, okay, I'm in. You know, I am in DC. Right. But I think we're going to relocate to LA, right? Like we think about that within a company, but we don't always think about doing that internationally for whatever reason with
[00:29:20] Nyra: [00:29:20] I agree with you there. You know? And I think there are so many outlets that, you know, the, the professional does not think about, you know, that, and you know, it was on you know, clubhouse was the new thing and we were in one room and but you know, you had a diplomat. Black diplomats. It was a black diplomat and it would, you know, discuss how one gets into that own getting UN job. And, you know, there's all these, you know outlets that one can, you know, venture into that will not throw a monkey wrench in your professional trajectory. You know what I'm saying?
[00:29:53] If anything, it will enhance it because, you know, if you're, let's just take, [00:30:00] if you are a social worker in the States, And then you decide you want to go to another country to do two years and do social work for a particular project or company or whatever the case may be. Right. And this is, you know, when you come back to your home country, you have that on your resume. You got; you have a whole other skillset that you're going to be. You could command top dollar. How have you used your passport for change? I'm thinking the black
[00:30:31] Amanda: [00:30:31] expat yeah. So, you know, I was thinking earlier today, how. I was having a conversation with someone and it was related to the black expats, something that, where I'm working on. And she had said to me, you know, Oh my gosh, thank you for all the work that you do, black ex-pat. And she's a total black expat known her for years. She's been an ex-pat for years. And I thought to myself, you know, there's really no point in having privilege if you can't help people with it. That's just my thought. Like, I don't understand having any kind of privilege and not helping people with it. I have had so far, a pretty ridiculous life in terms of the intersections that have happened, right?
[00:31:17] Yes, I am first gen, but I'm also American born, which has given me a passport. And I see that up close as someone who came from a family that absolutely did not have that. Right. I speak English. I'm highly educated. I have had all that, those weird, crazy educational experiences that I alluded to earlier. I've been at university I've been to grad school. And so I think about all the stuff that I know and that it is my role to sort of share what I know if it's going to help and better people. And so the black expat is part of it, right? Because the black ex-pat in many ways, it's a hub. [00:32:00] Like you think, you know, people see a site.
[00:32:03] There's stuff that we do on it. Right. But the conversations and the request and the things that come out of it, there's a lot of stuff that people don't see on the backend. So for example, I talked about international ed and we were talking about global citizenship. And then, you know what happened with George Floyd? And, you know, there were a lot of international schools, for example, we're thinking of ourselves, we got to do better. We got to adjust racism, we got to do D&I work. And so I started getting, I started getting emails from them. And I, I, one of the things I could do was say, Hey, believe it or not, I actually don't do D I D I work.
[00:32:38] Like, I know I'm black. I know I run a site called the black expat, but in terms of study and like I do, I do their literature and all this. Yes, I do all of that, but it's not my main focus, but guess what? Here's a list of five black and Brown folks in international ed who counselors and coaches are who do this work, run them, their checks [word not clear]. You know, and so I'm able to use what we do and actually introduce people to other people who are doing a lot of the work and further their work.