In this episode, Expat GYN/Obstetrician Carmen Brown, MD talks about how she chose to escape the disillusionment of her US medical practice for a lifestyle and family environment that supported work-life balance. In addition, Dr. Carmen discusses how she is able to align with her mission to support at-risk women and childbirths in the diverse environment of Melbourne, Australia.
Doctor Carmen's Bio:
Dr. Carmen Brown is an author, blogger, practicing obstetrician/gynecologist, and managing partner and founder of ExpatMD. She currently resides in Melbourne, Australia with her husband and young son.
Dr. Brown has been overseas for over eight years and has become passionate about helping other physicians realize their options to live and work overseas. After assisting several doctors to find jobs in either New Zealand or Australia, Dr. Brown decided to start ExpatMD, a full-service consulting firm dedicated to helping American doctors achieve their dream of becoming an expat.
She regularly speaks on a variety of podcasts and shows and writes a blog about life as a doctor mom with a child with Autism, www.autismdrmom.blogspot.com
Follow Dr. Carmen Brown
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/expatmd/
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/doctorCarmenb
https://www.twitter.com/autismdrmom
In this episode, Expat GYN/Obstetrician Carmen Brown, MD talks about how she chose to escape the disillusionment of her US medical practice for a lifestyle and family environment that supported work-life balance. In addition, Dr. Carmen discusses how she is able to align with her mission to support at-risk women and childbirths in the diverse environment of Melbourne, Australia.
Doctor Carmen's Bio:
Dr. Carmen Brown is an author, blogger, practicing obstetrician/gynecologist, and managing partner and founder of ExpatMD. She currently resides in Melbourne, Australia with her husband and young son.
Dr. Brown has been overseas for over eight years and has become passionate about helping other physicians realize their options to live and work overseas. After assisting several doctors to find jobs in either New Zealand or Australia, Dr. Brown decided to start ExpatMD, a full-service consulting firm dedicated to helping American doctors achieve their dream of becoming an expat.
She regularly speaks on a variety of podcasts and shows and writes a blog about life as a doctor mom with a child with Autism, www.autismdrmom.blogspot.com
Follow Dr. Carmen Brown
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/expatmd/
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/doctorCarmenb
https://www.twitter.com/autismdrmom
[00:01:44] Nyra: [00:01:44] Let's go let you start and introduce yourself. Tell us where you're from, how you got there. I mean, just, just start from the beginning.
[00:01:53] Carmen: [00:01:53] My name is Carmen Brown. I am originally from Southwest Atlanta born and raised in Atlanta [00:02:00] girl. I did all my training in undergrad medical school and everything in the United States. So I'm kinda new to this ex-pat game. I am a doctor. I'm an obstetrician-gynecologist by specialty. So I take care of moms and babies. And I did practice in the United States for quite some time before we made the leap to New Zealand first and then five years ago to Australia. And I say, we, because I am married, my husband is also from the United States.
[00:02:28] So we came together. A lot of people kind of assume that you've sometimes found love here. And there have been some people that have done that. But we came together, and we have a eight year old boy that has been raised completely and in New Zealand and now Australia. So yeah, so that's kind of in a nutshell who I am and where I am now. As far as our way that we got here, it was a very convoluted, kinda strange story. And that, the reason why I left was not necessarily pain, but it was all, it was mostly, we were looking for a better lifestyle.
[00:03:05] As physicians in the United States, there is quite a bit of stress and strain on us. Unfortunately, medicine in the United States. Is not as pure as it used to be. There are a lot of layers of mess I find between physicians and their patients and the ability to serve your patients to your full abilities is hindered significantly. I find by management, insurance companies and all those wonderful things. So because I was literally kind of younger in my career, I had only been out of training for, you know, six, seven years. I was being more and more. I was becoming more and more disillusioned and finding myself, wanting to have a lifestyle that I was able to, you know, have fun, have outside interests, be a good wife, be a good mom. Have hobbies have, and I was finding myself literally drowning and try to juggle all those areas of [00:04:00] my life.
[00:04:00]So my husband and I made the decision that we were going to try something different. New Zealand happened to be something we found out about well, we won a trip overseas and literally we decided, you know what, we're going to give it a try. That was in 2010 and the rest, as they say is history. So it's been, I've been an ex-pat now for 10 years and looking back on it, it just seems crazy because time elapses so quickly and you don't even realize it, but Yeah, I've been, I've been gone for a very, very long time now.
[00:04:33] Nyra: [00:04:33] That's amazing. That's a, you know, and I think it's really important to, to highlight, you know, just looking at how one's a life in, in such a high profession as being a physician that even you people think if you are a physician or anything that you know is looked upon as a money earner, You know that you would have a certain lifestyle that would be great and less stressful even, but no lots of people are just like you, that I've spoken to that have very high, stressful jobs and it leaks into their personal life and you can't have the quality of person, you know, personal life work, life balance is so it's such a big number one.
[00:05:16]Thing that everybody is looking to acquire. So I really appreciate you just talking about that. There's something that I've found really interesting that you said, yes, you came with your spouse, but you also decided to have a baby abroad. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I said, wait a minute, she's been out for 10 years, but her baby's eight years old. So I was doing the math. I said, Oh no. So tell me, what was that like? Is it, what was that birthing, you know, situation, especially your That's right up your alley? That's your specialty.
[00:05:44] Carmen: [00:05:44] Yes. So the funniest thing is, is that I should have done a disclosure. My son was actually born in the United States. That was kind of a mistake. We, he was born in Hawaii. So we had come back to the United States from New Zealand. And the plan [00:06:00] was, is to kind of tidy up loose ends to, you know, you have to sell your house and those types of things. And when we were home, I actually fell pregnant and ended up staying in the United States to give birth. Even though I actually had a job in New Zealand. So I ended up kind of staying put because unfortunately, like usually what does happen sometimes with a lot of us doctors had a nice complicated pregnancy. So traveling back overseas was not unfortunately an option. I wasn't allowed to get on a plane and had all kinds of complications that actually kept me hospitalized for several weeks.
[00:06:36] So he was actually born in the United States. He was born in Hawaii, actually at the same hospital as President Obama. So that's his, his little claim to fame. But you are right. It was still eye opening being on the opposite side type of thing. As far as, you know pregnancy having complicated complications and not in your quote home, because Hawaii is obviously not my home, but it's still in the U S . But then we did move shortly after. So my little one was 10 months old when we moved back to New Zealand.
[00:07:02] Nyra: [00:07:02] Wow. Oh my goodness. A little tiny thing coming back to a new environment and yeah. You know what I want to find out from you though? How, I mean, as a physician, I'm sure. You know, when you were in school, I don't, when did it happen that you learned that, you know, being an ex-pat could be an option for you? Did you have an encounter with someone? Did you read something? You know, tell me what your influence was.
[00:07:30] Carmen: [00:07:30] I think that as Americans in general, and not even just physicians, that we are kind of programmed to think that the United States is the end all be all. And that there's literally nothing outside of that. And I think that's one of the one of the most interesting things about American propaganda and I'm not saying that necessarily in a negative way, it's always good. I think for a country to feel very pride, pride feeling positive that they're offering, you know, their constituents, the best that there [00:08:00] is to offer.
[00:08:01] However, I also think that there should be some humility to that and understanding and appreciating that other people have. You know, some, you know, some nice lifestyles outside of what we have. And I did not know. And I think a lot of Americans don't know that people, other places have as high as a quality of life, if not higher than we do in the United States. And so I didn't know, honestly, anything about an ex-pat lifestyle didn't know that was an option at all until I started traveling outside of the United States and my finding out that I can actually work as a doctor outside the United States was literally by chance. I met a American family practice doctor when we were traveling in New Zealand and she actually told me, you know, you don't have to stay there and work like that.
[00:08:51] You know, there's, you could work over here. There is a better lifestyle over here. And that was the first time anyone had actually dropped it to me and said, you know, You know, we could do something, you know, different. And so that was when we first started investigating the option of moving overseas, working as a doctor overseas. And so started doing my research, found that there was a whole world out there of people that knew that option. I wasn't privy to it. And that's, that's when we started our adventure. So we moved literally, I would say six to eight months after I had that encounter with that young woman. We started our process and moved to New Zealand shortly thereafter.
[00:09:27] Nyra: [00:09:27] Now did you go through an agency or did you, did she give you a contact person? And what was that? What, how fast was that process? You know what did it entail?
[00:09:38] Carmen: [00:09:38] So she didn't have any contacts. It was literally just kind of one of those dream things at the time. So when we first did go, I did, we did go through an agency, but we did learn after the fact that that's not something that you have to do. And in fact especially for I would say English speaking countries where there's not going to be a lot of issues with translation and understanding documents, [00:10:00] you could actually do it on your own, which is what I did when we came back. So we did go through an agency the first time. There were some good and bad things about it is, as you can imagine, agencies can sometimes cause a decrease to the amount that you're actually offered because you know, the hospital has to pay them.
[00:10:16] And so they might decrease your moving fees or. Signing bonuses or something of that nature. So there are some not so good things about it. But we actually did go through an agency and then our paperwork getting licensed in New Zealand to be, you know, doctors working their visas and everything was not too difficult of a process. So, you know, some, you don't have a lot of things on your records and things are pretty straightforward. You can easily get licensed, I would say in four months six months, if things are drawn out a little bit. A little bit, but it's not going to be like a year or two years or anything of that nature.
[00:10:48] Nyra: [00:10:48] Right, right. That is important note to, for everybody to, to understand that you don't have to go through a recruiter, a headhunter. And it's important to note that if, especially if it's a English speaking country, that you can, you know, maneuver those waters, you know, with the right guidance and the right, you know, with the right. People to, you know, to talk to. And, you know, if you could work, if you basically, if you can fill out paperwork in the States, if you can go to DMV, you get a new license, then you would be afraid of philosophy, paperwork to go abroad, really, you know,
[00:11:21] Carmen: [00:11:21] And that's what I tell physicians. I meant like we do a lot of paperwork for credentialing, for hospitals, for state licensure. You do paperwork all the time as a part of our job. So it shouldn't be something that you know, instills fear in them. However, I understand people are busy and it is a daunting task to look at another country. And you know, after being over here for, you know, eight years, over that time, little by little people start finding out.
[00:11:44] Oh like, Oh, I heard so-and-so's over there. Well, let me put you in contact with Carmen, or I know you want to move. I know a girl from another girl you can, you know, get in contact with Carmen. And so I started helping other doctors that have put their hand up that were back home and [00:12:00] wanted to move overseas. So after eight years of kind of helping other people navigate those waters, I finally decided that I was going to start my own business to do that. so, I just literally started my own consulting company just a month ago specifically to help doctors who wanted to come to Australia and New Zealand.
[00:12:22] And it's been going really well. I didn't expect it to have that much interest for someone that started and, you know, went live on their website a month ago. It's been really it's been a lot. It's been a lot, which is good.
[00:12:36] Nyra: [00:12:36] So you have to build out a team now to help you out, huh?
[00:12:39]Carmen: [00:12:39] Yes. I was like, Oh, I didn't expect it to kind of blow up that quickly, which is good. So I am not complaining, but yeah, that's, that's my newest project. So it's called ex-pat MD. So that's what I've been doing. My new baby for the last couple of months.
[00:12:52] Nyra: [00:12:52] That's awesome. Let me ask you this now, as far as ethnicity, how many doctors, you know, can you, can you give me like a little breakdown? I think it would be interesting to know who is actually cause, cause I know you're, you're offering the services to anybody who's a physician, you know, and licensed and in good standing. But who is who's actually, you know, tell me about the, your ICA other than, than their physician? What kind of person are they?
[00:13:21] Amanda: [00:13:21] So most of the demographic of most of my physicians interesting enough there are quite a few black physicians that I've helped move overseas. So as far as. Demographics. Most of these doctors are between the ages of 30 and 45. And the reason why is because it is a little bit harder to make that move if you are younger in your career. And as most of us don't finish our training until we're like in our late twenties. Anyway, usually you want to have a couple of years under your belt. So most of us are between thirties and forties when we start making that, you know, that decision to move I would say probably about.
[00:13:58]35 to 40% of the [00:14:00] doctors that I've helped so far are black Americans which has been really nice. And then I would say as far as percentages, 85% are female. So I've only, yeah, I've only had a couple of the male physicians put their hands up so far. But yeah, so I would say it's. The interest, the people that sign up are usually about 50, 50, but as far as the people that kind of follow through, it seems to be more heavily female.
[00:14:28]Nyra: [00:14:28] With families and children?
[00:14:30]Carmen: [00:14:30] So I would say. I would probably split that half and half to 50, 50 as far as families. And when I say families, I also mean like partners. Like I have two physicians that I've helped that I've actually just had partners with them. So no children. And then I've had other physicians that actually have, you know, one, two, three children. And then of course there's single you know, Docs coming single.
[00:14:52]Nyra: [00:14:52] And so you have run the gamut already. And what kind of so I know you obstetrician and so what, what, you know, and I just think it's interesting because especially when you talk about healthcare, we'll get into that healthcare abroad. What is usually, you know, the background is it, does it just run the gynae, radiology, you know internist? What, what, what do you, what is the bulk, or can you give us a demo breakdown on that one?
[00:15:22] Carmen: [00:15:22] So interestingly enough I've helped doctors and a lot of different specialties, but there's a lot of specialties that have not been represented yet. So I've never actually placed things like radiology, ophthalmology, dermatology, those types of things. But I have helped on doctors from emergency medicine, internal medicine, psychiatry, obstetrics, gynecology pediatrics. So I'm pretty, I would say pretty much the whole gamut almost but there's quite a, you know, there's a huge, you know Mount plethora of different specialties that we have.
[00:15:52]But I'm sure that, you know, somebody might put their hand up one day and say, Hey, you know, I'm, you know, sports medicine, can you help me? So just [00:16:00] like there's jobs back home, there's definitely gonna be some jobs overseas.
[00:16:03] Nyra: [00:16:03] And is there a high need for physicians? Is there a shortage of physicians in the present, you know in Australia?
[00:16:11] Carmen: [00:16:11] Yes there is. And New Zealand and the reason is twofold. Number one is, is that specifically for Australia is there is a population boom, there's a lot of people immigrating into the Australia specifically over the last 10 years. And Australia definitely has a younger immigrant population. And so those are the ones that are, you know, having families, young families and needing those services, those different specialties. And then of course for New Zealand and Australia, we have a lot of doctors that are retiring. So that's the other thing. So we have some doctors in here like fifties and sixties who were, I'm looking at retiring. And so they're leaving spaces that are open and need to be filled.
[00:16:50] Nyra: [00:16:50] Okay. That sounds amazing. And that that's an important point to make fifties and sixties that even at that, around that age, Still opportunity for you with opportunities, you know, and I think any profession really that even though in this, you know, maybe in your present country You might have aged out, you know, but in another country, you know, if you're, if you still have everything, you know, your licenses and you're in your, you know, maybe early sixties, these days is young, you know?
[00:17:21]I mean, you know, people are just, yeah. You know, staying alive so much longer. I mean, that's true. And so why not be a service in another country that is seeking your expertise? You know? So I think that's great. I didn't ask you, what does your, your husband do?
[00:17:38]Carmen: [00:17:38] So my husband by training, he's an anesthesiologist, but he's actually currently he's a stay at home dad. And he's also working on another degree. So he's, he's doing a second career now.
[00:17:51] Nyra: [00:17:51] The MD wasn't enough. He said, you know, let me just go back to something else. That is awesome. Okay. Higher education. No, [00:18:00] never stopped learning, never stopped. Where has your now new lifestyle has taken you? Do you see yourself coming back to the States or is it a different relationship now with the States you just come to visit family? What is, what is your current lifestyle? Like? Can you go into depth about that?
[00:18:21] Carmen: [00:18:21] Sure. So we are we're, we're settled. So we don't have any plans on coming back. Oh, we've been gone for so long. I think it actually could be quite honestly, very difficult to come back as far as trying to insert ourselves back in like the quote American style of working. We have a very good lifestyle here, which is why I would not want to give it up. And the reason why I say that it has nothing to do necessarily about like you know, money degrees and things like that. But it has all to do about once again, the community and the lifestyle. We have, we live in Melbourne Australia, and we have a lot of little different, smaller neighborhoods throughout the actual city.
[00:18:59] And each neighborhood has its own kind of community hub type of feeling. And you have your like neighborhood restaurants and bars and you have your neighborhood school. So you know, in the morning, you know, all the parents are coming out and we're walking our kids to school because you walk to school. There's no buses. Right. Buses are not something that you really have because every community has their own school and everybody's within like a mile of their school. So it's just kinda like you see kids on their bicycles, you see, you know, moms and dads walking their kids to school. So having those types of experiences, being able to live in a way that feels.
[00:19:36] So relaxed and so less, like go, go, go than what I've experienced in the past. Makes me not want to give that up, you know having that work-life balance, knowing that my work hours are always going to be less than they were back home, because it's never expected for you to have that, that work time that you did in the United States. There's definitely a [00:20:00] demarcation between work and personal life. And even if you don't have children, you have outside activities and outside interests, and those are respected, and they are kept separate from your work life. So I really feel that. You know, having to break away from that and coming back home to where we don't necessarily have those strict boundaries would, would just not be something would be interested in at this point in my life.
[00:20:25]And I also feel that we've, we've landed in a very, a very lucky country in that we have excellent and very high rated public schools. So we're very blessed in that. You know, my son goes to extraordinarily, you know, highly ranked public school that happens to be right down the street from me. And I can walk him to school where we can ride our bikes to school. So having those kinds of benefits, being in a safe place, having free healthcare, having free and really good education, all those things. I just feel like this is a good place to settle and stay.
[00:20:59] Nyra: [00:20:59] Let me ask you this. What does diversity like?
[00:21:03] Carmen: [00:21:03] It depends on of course where you are, where I am is very diverse. So Melbourne is probably one of the most diverse cities in Australia. We have. It's very interesting. There's an immigration museum for anyone that visits Melbourne. I highly recommend you go visit there because it talks about the history of the city. And we have, if I remember we have like some of the largest populations outside of the native countries.
[00:21:26] For certain countries, for example, Maltese and Greek. So we have very large Maltese Greek populations here, huge Italian population here, Vietnamese Nepalese, Burmese, Chinese, East African West African central, African. It's literally a melting pot to the point where if you ask me where our favorite Ethiopian restaurant was, I could tell you if you asked me where the best Greek was, I can tell you where there's a Nepalese restaurant.
[00:21:56] There is such an amazing melting pot of cultures [00:22:00] here, which helps so much for the diversity and how are children exposed to these different cultures? Yeah, it's so it's a very diverse area that I predict, you know, I live in which we. Appreciate. Obviously, that's not going to be the same thing. If you go to some of the smaller, you know, smaller towns or that are further out. We also have a good large, I would say large, but we have a good number of Aboriginal people here in our area, which is beautiful. So that's given us the opportunity to make those connections to the actual first peoples that are here for, you know, this is their home. They were just living.
[00:22:34] Yeah. We're just basically interlopers in their home, but yeah, it's a very diverse area that I'm in. And so I feel very comfortable with my little one being raised in this area.
[00:22:43] Nyra: [00:22:43] I guess he identifies himself as being Australia because he is.
[00:22:47] Carmen: [00:22:47] Yes, he, so it's very funny. He's only eight, but if you ask him where he's from, he gives you this like random response. So you say Noah. Where were you born? I was born in Hawaii. Where are you from? I'm from New Zealand. I'm from New Zealand. We moved from New Zealand to Australia when he was three and a half. So he kind of semi remembers that part, remembers us talking about it for this, you know, first year here. And then, you know, and he says he lives in Melbourne, Australia and that's, that's it. So he has this, yeah, his understanding of like home and everything. He's truly a third culture kid. Cause he doesn't have any. Memory understanding of the United States. In fact, he calls it North America. Like he doesn't seem to like, get the whole demarcation kind of thing. So he's like, you know, it's my family in North America.
[00:23:40] And I'm like, yeah, the United States. Yeah. Yeah. So he has a very different understanding. It's a very different place. Like, you know, they're from the old country
[00:23:52]Nyra: [00:23:52] that is amazing, you know, what an opportunity and that he's not missing out on meeting different people from different , countries [00:24:00] are still getting a melting pot feeling, you know, it's not monolithic or, you know, homogenous in nature at all. Yeah. So I kudos. Have you had any adjustments that you've had to make in living there in the work environment with the natives there or people who are been Australian for a minute or New Zealand, but new Zealander for a minute, you know, has there been any kind of situation like that?
[00:24:29]Carmen: [00:24:29] Yes. I think that once again, whenever you go somewhere, you have to appreciate the culture. And that we are such a pressured go, go, go society. When we step outside of that, sometimes we don't appreciate, that's not the way other people operate. And when we came to New Zealand, I have to admit some things were really frustrating. You know, when you say, Hey I'll have this contract back to you, you know, next week. And then you're checking your emails next week and nothing's there. And, you know, 10 days go by and you're like, hello, where's the contract. It, it, it's not that these people are, you know, lazy or anything like that. It's just that they do not operate on that pressurized, you know, high, you know, stress intensity, like what we're used to.
[00:25:15] And so we had to take a step back and realize and understand that. Everything doesn't have to be. So, you know, hardcore do it now, you know, everyone's staring at, you got to get it done now type of, type of feeling so appreciating and understanding that, you know, things are gonna be done at the time they're going to be done. And that's all there is to like an Island time because, you know, honestly, these are both islands. And yeah, they, you know, they are, they both have very big business centers and everything, and yes, business is done, but it's definitely not at the level that we've seen. I do feel once again that people have a much better understanding and appreciation for personal time, people actually do take off sick time and are not apologetic about it.
[00:25:58] If you're sick, you're sick. [00:26:00] Whereas. Back home. You know, you got people practicing their sick voice because you know, they want to be real sick. You know, you gotta be really civil on your death bed. If you're gonna take that sick leave, these people appreciate the fact if you feel run down, take that sick day not the workaholic environment.
[00:26:19] It's toxic. It can be very, very toxic. But yeah, I think, I think coming here, we had to appreciate understand that you're not going to necessarily have that ready-made society, that 24 hours go, that we have. And we're used to, you know, we had to get used to the fact that, you know, if you want to go to the store, at nine o'clock at night, it's going to be closed. You know, it boggled our minds. That that was the thing. And that malls closed at five o'clock on a Saturday. You know, you're not going to go shopping at the mall at nine o'clock on Saturday. It's not going to happen. And you know, you just, you get used to, this is, this is the culture that we live in. Now you have to adjust your expectations.
[00:26:57] Nyra: [00:26:57] And that there are other things that are more important. Exactly. How has this experience really transformed you to use your passport, you as the living passport and then your actual physical passport? How have you used that for change?
[00:27:15]Carmen: [00:27:15] Change, I would say, as a living passport. I think what I've done is I've become a bit of a trailblazer. I am definitely not the first person that's come over, but in many spaces, I am the first black woman. So I feel that that's critical and I know this is a controversial thing, but I know a lot of people like hate when they have to quote, represent the whole race and have the, like the whole thing sitting on their shoulders.
[00:27:38]But I feel that that is what I have done. And I thought that was a critical part of me representing myself, my family, my people when I was in New Zealand and here in Australia. And having the ability to teach people about our history, what we've come through, what we've been through and how we [00:28:00] have you know, basically just proven time and time again, how incredibly resilient we are and how diverse we are as a people. I think that has been my biggest Mark that I, I want it in shoes to leave on this place. When I was in New Zealand, I was the first black woman there and I was the first black woman that almost most of my patients and even some of the doctors had ever come in contact with. So I just thought that was a really.
[00:28:26] Important role to see, you know, positive, you know, educated black seniors [word not clear] so that anything that they had previously learned and thought they knew was being, you know, possibly proven wrong. The other thing I felt that was important is because. I feel like one of the negative aspects about being here is as I am away from my people, I am away from what I wanted to do as far as helping with black, maternal mortality and morbidity.
[00:28:53] That's one of the key things that I've always been working towards. Wanting to have my career align with that. Being away from home makes me have to find other ways to do that. But also, has allowed me to see that we still have the same problems with women, indigenous women all over the world. And so being in New Zealand and realizing that Maori women have higher rates of, you know, poor outcomes with childbirth, poor outcomes with prenatal and postnatal care.
[00:29:23] So things like that impacted me. And even though these aren't my people, I still feel this kind of Kendrick like connection. So I've definitely kind of thrown myself in that, into that arena where I want to make sure that I put myself in those spaces that I'm able to help those women. So if it's Mallory women in New Zealand, if it's Aboriginal women here, if it's you know, immigrant women that are here that still have those poor outcomes, that's the kind of spaces I want to work in. And so I'm definitely. Wanting and choosing to use my passport in that way.
[00:29:52] Nyra: [00:29:52] Awesome.