Breaking the Mold: Redefining Masculinity Through Connection with Tyler from the STAG Podcast

Ep 636: **Breaking Free from Traditional Masculinity: A Journey of Healing and Connection**

Dive into a powerful conversation with Tyler, host of the masculinity podcast "STAG," as he shares his transformative journey from battling alcoholism in the people around him while growing up and in himself to creating meaningful spaces for male connection. This eye-opening episode explores how informal stag meetings are revolutionizing the way men approach emotional well-being and vulnerability.

Key highlights:
- Overcoming alcoholism and finding purpose through community building
- Challenging toxic masculinity and embracing authentic male connections
- The role of vulnerability in fostering genuine relationships
- Navigating intimacy, trust, and personal boundaries
- Understanding the difference between jealousy and healthy attachment
- The importance of emotional connections over superficial encounters

Through raw and honest dialogue, Tyler demonstrates how breaking free from traditional masculine norms can lead to profound personal growth and stronger communities. His story serves as a powerful reminder that true strength lies in our ability to be vulnerable and support one another.

Ready to challenge your perspectives on modern masculinity? Listen to this transformative episode that's changing the conversation around male connection and emotional well-being.

Timeline: 00:00:02 - Introduction to the Guest Podcast
00:02:35 - Exploring Modern Masculinity
00:06:38 - Respect and Vulnerability in Relationships
00:23:07 - Exploring Boundaries in Relationships
00:48:46 - Understanding Clit Boners
00:52:45 - Conversations on Pleasure and Generational Ideas
00:57:05 - Embracing Pleasure and Self-Acceptance
00:58:55 - Understanding Sexuality and Media Influence
01:15:13 - Exploring Pleasure and Spirituality
01:23:50 - Finding Balance in Self-Service
01:30:01 - Understanding Negative Reactions to Service
01:32:40 - Exploring Boundaries and Sexuality
01:55:13 - Enjoying Conversations and Podcast Insights

Takeaways: • Tyler's journey through alcoholism led to the creation of stag meetings, highlighting the need for structured spaces for men to discuss emotional challenges openly.  
• The dialogue critiques traditional masculinity, arguing that vulnerability and authenticity are essential components of healthy male relationships.  
• The distinction between jealousy and envy is explored, emphasizing the importance of trust and understanding one's desires in fostering deeper emotional connections.

STAG Podcast: http://stagpod.com/

Ruan's appearance on STAG: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5ySEOlaLuQtZCYX6nJCEmD?si=JC7vwcZ3SWS_4HVfOKFEvA

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6jGCcNSKckFA1ctC1cBQ8k?si=Mwec27LKTeSvQeu9ijYF

Transcript

This transcript was created by Cleanvoice ai and will have errors because it was not edited by a human being, so please excuse the typos. Email ruanwillow@gmail.com with questions.

Season 5, Episode 636. Copyright 2025 Pink Infinity Publishing LLC. All Rights Reserved. This is an 18+ conversation.

00:00:02 SPEAKER_04
Hello, everyone. This is Ruan Willow, and I'm super excited to talk to this guest. I was actually on his podcast not too long ago, and I did share it. But if you missed it, you got to check it out. And it's in a two -part series that was split into two different parts. We had such a fantastic conversation. I had so much fun, and I just wanted him to come on my podcast. and give his perspective. And I just am really super excited to talk to this person.

00:00:33 SPEAKER_04
And again, this is Ruan Willow of the Oh Fuck Yeah with Ruin Willow podcast. You can find me on all the podcast apps and YouTube as Ruin Willow Podcaster. And I'm in a lot of places, so I'm not going to list them all because it takes too long. But check me out wherever you listen to your podcast and check out Stag. S -T -A -G. That is the podcast of the guest that is on this episode. Welcome. I'm super excited to talk to you. That's so funny.

00:01:05 SPEAKER_03
you. That's so funny. I don't remember. Thank you for having me first off, but I don't remember if... Also, just before we actually even get started, I want to acknowledge that Freudian slip on the stalking comment there. That's so funny. I didn't want to interrupt you, but that's really funny. It was so funny.

00:01:26 SPEAKER_04
funny. And I meant to say the word talking and it came out as stalking.

00:01:29 SPEAKER_03
out as stalking. Yeah. Right. What is that? That's weird.

00:01:31 SPEAKER_04
Right. What is that? That's weird.

00:01:35 SPEAKER_03
That's weird. Maybe appropriate for the show. I have no idea. But I don't remember if we talked about my name. I know that I kind of operate on a kind of an anonymous platform. And that's like part of my deal with that podcast.

00:01:48 SPEAKER_02
like part

00:01:53 SPEAKER_03
I think it took about 11 episodes before somebody actually asked me my name on the, on the show.

00:01:58 SPEAKER_04
Oh yeah.

00:01:59 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. I had some friends that are like, Oh, you fucked this up. You should have just gone by John Doe and just kept the deer thing going. That's so genius. I should have done that, but I do go by Tyler.

00:02:04 SPEAKER_04
going. That's so

00:02:09 SPEAKER_03
do go by Tyler. And so we, yeah.

00:02:13 SPEAKER_04
Awesome. And so Tyler, nice to meet you. I've already met you. But I didn't know that particular name. I didn't know that particular label. So thank you for sharing that. And I'm just really excited to talk with you. Tell us a little bit about your podcast first.

00:02:33 SPEAKER_03
Oh, okay. Yeah. So the podcast is called Stag and it's essentially, I started as a show for men. And it really emerged out of this kind of need for me to answer some questions as a male and also kind of address this lingering social question that has been kind of prevalent in male circles. kind of like the what is it to be what does it mean to be a man and like how does a man actually operate in the world today uh and we're talking about like first world problems right because like people in yes and like the global south and stuff like they don't care about this shit like they're too busy doing like other stuff like living um and dealing with you know more important existential crises in front of them i i dealt with like alcoholism and stuff when i was younger

00:03:03 SPEAKER_00
a man actually

00:03:08 SPEAKER_02
yes and

00:03:15 SPEAKER_03
and dealing with you know more important existential crises in front of them i

00:03:24 SPEAKER_03
i dealt with like alcoholism and stuff when i was younger And so I'm like late thirties. And, um, and one of my favorite things was us, this meeting called the stag meeting for men. And it was just like me and like a handful of dudes and we'd meet at the park. Like every Sunday we'd bring our lawn chairs and we hang out in a circle and we just, it wasn't, it wasn't like AA driven, like specifically, like there was like Alcoholics Anonymous, like undertones. But it wasn't, it was more like just a spiritual coming together and, and like men being real men and like checking in with each other and,

00:04:05 SPEAKER_03
real men and like checking in with each other and, and like, Hey, like, are you okay? How's your life going? And that was it. And it was like one hour and we'd all go in a circle and we'd say, this is how we're doing. And this is how my week has been. And it sucks. And I would be like, okay, cool. And that was it. We'd pray out and everyone went about their day. And so Stag kind of emerged out of this wanting to kind of create that and offer my hand out to other men who might be seeking something in their life that is maybe a little bit in line with what I was seeking at that time. And that was part of it, right? And then the other part of that was, what does it mean to be a man in this? in this world because i as a male didn't really fit in with dudes and didn't get along with a lot of dudes and uh didn't really subscribe to you know the machismo it's just really like arrogant prideful male energies like and a lot of it really just stemmed from emotional adolescence and this refusal to kind of grow up And, or, you know, it comes with some other stuff too, right? Cultural stuff. But, um, I, I just never sat well with me. And, and ultimately I think as I got older and I started stag, like I quickly like understood what I already knew in that it was, it's, it's usually that, that a lot of that culture, not all of it, but like some of it, most of it is really just weak men perpetuating weak ideas. And trying to keep other men down because they don't have any actual fucking power, right? Yeah, yeah. And that's always been true to me. And for me, as an observer, and I never really subscribed to that. And so me and those men usually don't get along because those dudes don't really know what to do when a dude kind of stands up to them, right? Right. Right. puff their chest and you puff back and realize like, Oh wait, this is not actually how I thought it was going to go. It gets a little bit different. And, and like the, the tune changes and, you know,

00:06:18 SPEAKER_00
going to go. It gets a little bit different.

00:06:25 SPEAKER_03
get into the realm of like, you know, dudes trying to exercise violence. And then it's like, well, at the end of violence, you're still an idiot. So it doesn't actually matter. Right. Right. And so it doesn't matter. Right. So that's the long winded story of how that emerged.

00:06:42 SPEAKER_04
And to me as a woman, a lot of what you said is just kind of beautiful because it's not subscribing to what society perpetuates as a man. And that, you know, it's just it's really hard to swallow some of the stuff that society feeds us.

00:06:59 SPEAKER_04
of the stuff that society feeds us. And I don't like it. I think that we're all people. And some of this stuff is like they're just trying to divide us. And it's like. I don't want to be divided from men. I don't want that. And they're just kind of like, it's just like this horrible thing. And it's like,

00:07:16 SPEAKER_00
just kind

00:07:17 SPEAKER_04
just like this horrible thing. And it's like, we're all people. Why can't we just respect each other and just have a fucking good time instead of all this other BS like you said?

00:07:27 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. I mean, I won't pretend that I don't get lost in the mix of all the nonsense and the emotional adolescence sometimes and that I don't crawl into my lower self at moments. Or I find myself to be, you know, less than adequate for the moment.

00:07:38 SPEAKER_02
find myself

00:07:42 SPEAKER_03
But it's like, I tend to kind of operate from, you know, the perspective that you just laid out where like. The question of what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman or what it means to be this or what it means to be that, all these ideological LARPing suits that we put on. And it's like, it doesn't actually fucking matter because if you were actually standing in your power and your true self as an authentic human being having an experience on this earth, you would just do whatever the fuck makes you happy, right? Yes. And then it doesn't actually matter outside of that because everything else is just these terms and these ideas that we use to negotiate our standing in proximity to people that we want to be around. And so really a lot of that stuff is, is us kind of like almost burying ourselves in, in, in nonsense so that we can get along and kind of fill some selfish need because otherwise you don't need any of it. Like on, if we're going to be honest about it, it's all kind of useless.

00:08:39 SPEAKER_04
all kind of useless. It is. It is. And I think the basic thing that most women feel, I'm just speaking from a female perspective, is that a lot of men don't respect women and that they don't see them as equals. They don't. And so that right there already, you're fucked. You know, if you're not going to see your woman, the woman in your life as an equal, you're already fucked. Right.

00:09:04 SPEAKER_03
Right. Right. Somebody who I think that for myself, if I don't respect my partner, there's no reason to really engage with somebody in a more intimate level, just generally speaking. And so I can see from a female's perspective how even not being able to sit at the table on an equal playing field is just... It's a non -starter, right? And I think that goes, again, back to like for anybody, really, anybody who's really trying to find themselves in something that is worthy of being a part of is going to want some level of dignity, respect, and all the things that come with that. And really just on a very fundamental trust level, or like if I can't trust somebody. then there's no way that I would ever operate any kind of good faith with that person and any of my negotiations with them if there's no trust, right? Because there would be never a willingness to lay down my arms,

00:10:08 SPEAKER_00
would be

00:10:10 SPEAKER_03
willingness to lay down my arms, so to speak. And if you can't do that, then everything you're doing is kind of like in service of gaining something that is... in the realm of desperation and selfishness.

00:10:28 SPEAKER_04
And of course, I always talk about sexuality. I'm going to draw that into sexuality. Let's do it. You know, if you don't trust your partner, do you know how damaging that is and how much you're not going to be able to explore your sexuality together? And so, you know, I just, everything is tied to sex. Not that sex is everything. But everything we do in a relationship is somehow end up being going to be tied to the sexual part of the relationship. Because if you don't show respect, if you don't pull your weight, if you don't do things to show respect to that person, how are they going to want to open up and be sexual with you to the max? And isn't that what we all want?

00:11:14 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because. I took a lot away from our conversation the last time, and I kind of pondered on that. The next time I found myself in the bedroom with my partner, I was kind of thinking about where are the places where I'm being selfish or holding back or not being as honest as I can be in the language of the bedroom, so to speak.

00:11:43 SPEAKER_03
And I realized, and it was really weird because we'd been, we had been together for some time and it made me realize that like,

00:11:50 SPEAKER_03
made me realize that like, holy shit, like there are still places even in our intimacy that I was, I was hiding, that I was, I wasn't being completely vulnerable and that there was still some, some parts of myself that was unwilling to let go of the.

00:12:09 SPEAKER_03
maybe the some of my insecurities and stuff like that and with with her in in like the bedroom right and it's and it doesn't have to be anything more than like simply you know my head not being in the game right right right like just being distracted by something right that's that's that's insecurity that's dishonesty and that's um

00:12:13 SPEAKER_00
with her

00:12:23 SPEAKER_00
right like

00:12:23 SPEAKER_03
right like just being distracted by something right that's that's that's insecurity that's dishonesty and that's um

00:12:26 SPEAKER_00
that's that's

00:12:33 SPEAKER_03
lack of vulnerability, right? Because I'm somewhere else, right? Or something. And that's not to take anything away from her. She's an awesome partner.

00:12:37 SPEAKER_01
And that's

00:12:38 SPEAKER_00
to take

00:12:42 SPEAKER_03
And it's hard to contend with these ideas because it's like, oh, what if I'm being a terrible partner? What if they're a terrible partner? Or what if this is not supposed to work or whatever? And it's like, you don't know if you can't even be honest with yourself, right? And it's like the same things that we were talking about last time where we kind of saw these lines between, you know, the way that we dance in, in like the public sphere in our everyday kind of public reactions. And then the way we, we engage with, you know, our partners in, in the bedroom. And it's like, it seems to be like almost this constant, like creating attention and then releasing and then trying to like find a more. worthy boundary of who we are and how we shape that into how we negotiate with each other and whatnot and how we get what we want and and and on and how do we unfold that in an honest truth that you know might emerge you know the next the next moment for each other and um it's like i don't think anyone really pays attention in those like realms like as hard as maybe i'm even painting that picture as

00:13:54 SPEAKER_04
But don't you think we're missing out if we don't? I feel like we're missing out if we don't pay attention to that.

00:14:01 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but then I think there's also like a man can only eat so much ass.

00:14:07 SPEAKER_03
man can only eat so much ass.

00:14:12 SPEAKER_03
Do you know what I mean? You can only have so much indulgence. Even in the pursuit of truth, I think that you can get really lost in it. And I think the movie The Fountain is one of my favorite movies of all time. Oh,

00:14:28 SPEAKER_04
Oh, I have to watch that. I haven't seen it.

00:14:31 SPEAKER_03
Well, okay. So it's going to be a hard analogy. Okay. I'm sure somebody listening to this has seen it. And it's just like, it's the pursuit of something. some deep desire that you want so bad. It's like it in itself becomes this euphoric kind of thing that you chase and become a slave to. Right. And it's like,

00:14:45 SPEAKER_00
becomes this euphoric

00:14:50 SPEAKER_00
even,

00:14:50 SPEAKER_03
even in our partnerships, right. Where we want to be honest and open and free and, and, uh, encouraging and, and truthful and operating integrity and, you know, and oneness and what all these things. And, and it's like, even in doing so, right. This thing where you traditionally, um, we kind of started with like women don't feel respected by their male partners. And it's like, there is also this underlying notion that we are possessed by each other. Right. Right. Like, and, and, and if that doesn't exist for some reason, like if there is right, because even on the, uh,

00:15:32 SPEAKER_03
in the most honest ventures of belonging, right. If we call it not possession, but belonging, what is, what is belonging, but possessing. some truth of other, right? And oneness in some realm of that kind of nature, right? And so it's like, if I didn't feel some kind of heather or tie or entanglement with my partner. Sure. Be the point, right?

00:15:59 SPEAKER_04
Right. But there is a big difference between that and someone who tries to control their partner. Now, I'm all about the kinks of people who want to do the dom -sub and the orgasm control and all that stuff. But if you literally try to control your partner and tell them what they can and cannot do, that's a very different thing than belonging to them or tethered to them, having a connection with them.

00:16:23 SPEAKER_03
100%. 100%. I would definitely like... Anybody who's in those kind of situations, if you are in one of those, the fuck out. That's crazy. Get help. Right. I've known a lot of people in those kinds of situations. And I grew up in an environment where I had to watch my own mother kind of deal with something like that. And it's in watching her kind of find it difficult to crawl out of a situation like that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't wish that on anybody. And there really is a massive difference between what I'm talking about in the more consensual realm versus that, which is more in the abusive,

00:17:00 SPEAKER_03
I'm talking about in the more consensual realm versus that, which is more in the abusive, right? Yes.

00:17:05 SPEAKER_02
which is

00:17:23 SPEAKER_03
it's like the way that we approach it, right? Because it's, I don't see a difference between being tethered to a bad situation versus being tethered to a good situation other than the fact that you're tethered, right? And then there is that what you want and what you don't want. And there is and lies the difference between the two. And then you have that kind of like dichotomy of like the so above, so below kind of thing, as above, so below kind of thing.

00:17:47 SPEAKER_02
kind of

00:17:48 SPEAKER_03
And then it's like, But nobody wishes a terrible situation on another human being. I certainly would never want to find myself in a situation like that ever again. I know that I've been on the receiving end of a shitty relationship where the possessive nature is just in the realm of abusive, and it's not a really awesome place to be. No.

00:18:14 SPEAKER_04
I'm glad you pointed that out.

00:18:14 SPEAKER_03
glad you pointed that out.

00:18:16 SPEAKER_04
I feel like too, like, you know, there's a difference between, you know, I've talked to some people, you know, some people that are coaches on this and jealousy is a thing and envy is a thing and they're actually different. They're not the same thing.

00:18:29 SPEAKER_03
Oh, interesting. Yes, there's a woman that teaches on that and there is a very much a difference between them.

00:18:32 SPEAKER_04
there's a woman that teaches on that and there is a very much a difference between them. And before I interviewed her, I hadn't really thought about that, but there is a difference.

00:18:45 SPEAKER_04
And people who are,

00:18:45 SPEAKER_01
who are, it's interesting because I think the way she portrayed it was jealousy is coveting what someone else has and envy,

00:18:48 SPEAKER_04
interesting because I think the way she portrayed it was jealousy is coveting what someone else has and envy, maybe I'm mixing this up, but envy is like, you're envious that someone's going on a fun trip. Oh, you know, like you'd want to go, right? But there's a difference between them. One is more negative than the other. And I'm trying to remember which way she presented it, but. You know, there's a difference between being like, oh, that's really fun. I wish I could do that, too, versus I don't want you to do that. I'm going to possess you and you can't do that. Like, there's a control aspect to that. And there's a difference between them. And it really kind of was jarring to me to think about that there's actually a difference between those two and that the words actually kind of mean different things.

00:19:41 SPEAKER_03
yeah i think this is the realm of like the nuance of what i was trying to get to with like there is very clearly and this is like theoretical we're not talking about like real situations there like there is very clearly uh like a world where like everything is like happy and glittery and then a world where like everything's like shitty and dark and to me when we get into the nuances of things it's like if

00:20:09 SPEAKER_03
thing that you're chasing is produced by both, it's the same thing. It doesn't matter. And then everything else is just preference, right?

00:20:16 SPEAKER_02
just preference,

00:20:18 SPEAKER_03
And so if I'm unhappy because I'm jealous or whatever, and then I'm unhappy because I'm envious,

00:20:18 SPEAKER_02
so if

00:20:23 SPEAKER_03
whatever, and then I'm unhappy because I'm envious, then the common denominator to me is that I'm unhappy, in which case both situations are shitty and they are different because they're named different or might feel different, but they're the same because they're producing the same outcomes, right? I can't.

00:20:38 SPEAKER_00
can't.

00:20:40 SPEAKER_03
Right. And so you're talking about situations where jealousy might arouse something that is closer to sexual tension, right? Versus envy where you're being destructive, right? And to me, there's no difference other than the way that you play that out.

00:20:59 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, right. Right. It's actually, it's your behavior in response to those feelings that makes it different.

00:21:09 SPEAKER_03
Right. For the same reason that a sub -dom can be in a situation that's controlled, the way that they approach the behavior is an adult one,

00:21:21 SPEAKER_03
adult one, for lack of better words, right? Versus somebody who is in a similar situation. experiencing a more an abusive situation right and that right that is uncontrolled right and so one is consensual one is not and and like that's like those lines get kind of weird sometimes for me at least as far as like when we're talking about the theory of like what it means like to kind of explore uh and be honest with yourself right because

00:21:38 SPEAKER_01
that's like

00:21:40 SPEAKER_03
those lines get kind

00:21:44 SPEAKER_03
of weird sometimes for me at least as far as like when we're talking about the theory of like what it means like to kind of explore uh and be honest with yourself right because There's a lot of people out there who are in situations who don't want to be in those situations. And then when they're out of those situations, they find themselves in more consensual situations to deal with the trauma. And I think you and I talked about this last time.

00:22:14 SPEAKER_04
Yeah.

00:22:16 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with people that want to do, you know, role play and stuff like that. But that's communication. That's talking about it beforehand versus. Right.

00:22:28 SPEAKER_01
Right.

00:22:29 SPEAKER_04
Right. Like, I think the big key here is, is you have to communicate with your partner because if you don't.

00:22:30 SPEAKER_01
I think

00:22:37 SPEAKER_04
You're just going to end up in a bad place. And if there is jealousy involved, you know, for me, jealousy is a complete turnoff because it doesn't respect me as a person. It doesn't allow me to be able to, you know, enforce my own boundaries. You know, it's like. it's the other person enforcing their boundaries on me.

00:23:00 SPEAKER_04
I don't need your boundaries. I don't want your boundaries. You need to respect me. You know what I mean? Like, for instance, I've been in a relationship where someone, you know, the other partner was angry that I was talking with another man. Like, if you can't respect that I can talk with another man and not decide that I'm going to fuck him in one second, that's fucked up.

00:23:22 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. And again, for getting into the realm of like where it goes from like something innocent to something problematic and then something problematic to something abusive. Right. And this is the problem with these conversations that I usually have is that everything has to just be, it's easier to speak about it in such a generalized broad brush situation. And then there's so much like spectrum in between this.

00:23:25 SPEAKER_00
into the realm of

00:23:32 SPEAKER_00
to something

00:23:41 SPEAKER_03
easier to speak about it in such a generalized broad brush situation. And then there's so much like spectrum in between this. Right. Yeah.

00:23:51 SPEAKER_03
And I mean, something like what you're talking about is like wildly unhealthy until, you know, you're in a situation where a couple has actually put those boundaries for whatever reason for themselves. And they both live by that. And, you know, one seems to might actually be crossing their own boundaries. Right. And to your point, you'd probably be like, well, maybe you should explore a little bit more consensual sexuality.

00:24:13 SPEAKER_02
Right.

00:24:18 SPEAKER_04
So let me ask you a question since obviously my podcast is about sexuality. Do you ever find yourself in a place with your partner where you want to do something sexual and they don't? And how do you navigate that?

00:24:35 SPEAKER_01
That's a really good question.

00:24:39 SPEAKER_01
You know what's funny is sometimes I think about...

00:24:48 SPEAKER_01
Like just partners I've had in general and in a general fear that I'm like,

00:24:49 SPEAKER_03
had in general and in a general fear that I'm like, what if they ask me to do something I'm just like not into? Right.

00:24:57 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like,

00:24:58 SPEAKER_03
I'm like, what? And it like comes up sometimes like, and I had this, this one person I met one time on like a dating app or something. She was into all kinds of things, but she was really kind about it. She was really kind about it. You're really kind about it. You're just very open, honest, and just consent all the way through. There's no assumptions being made. Everything is like, let's talk. I don't think that up until that point that I met a woman who was like that. She was older than me at the time. I thought that was so cool because it made and it turned it into like play like for real and yeah and it was fun and it didn't it didn't feel weird it felt like i it opened the door to like feeling more safe and being willing to kind of maybe understand where my boundaries actually are um for myself right and um so like i don't i don't know how to answer that question outside of like well if

00:25:45 SPEAKER_00
yeah and it

00:25:52 SPEAKER_03
it opened the door to like feeling more safe and being willing to kind of maybe understand where my boundaries actually are um for myself right and um

00:26:05 SPEAKER_03
like i don't i don't know how to answer that question outside of like well if if we're just like talking about stuff and we're, and we're trying to figure things out, then it just, we just, you know, I don't know. You just kind of go with it. And I'm kind of boring, honestly, when it comes to like stuff, like I'm like pretty fucking vanilla. Right. And, and I don't,

00:26:21 SPEAKER_00
like pretty fucking vanilla.

00:26:26 SPEAKER_03
I don't, I don't, I don't get too like into the, like,

00:26:33 SPEAKER_03
i don't know maybe like maybe into the porn maybe i can explore a little bit but like it's like oh that's odd that's different but like even a lot of a lot of sexual stuff isn't like me it's not super arousing it's more like uh that's different like right it's it's a it's a i don't know how to explain it like i don't want to like trivialize it and say oh it's kind of like entertainment um but like i don't know different strokes for different folks kind of deal you know and um

00:26:38 SPEAKER_01
that's odd that's

00:26:43 SPEAKER_03
it's not super arousing it's more like uh that's different like right it's it's a it's a i don't know how to explain it like i don't want to like trivialize it and say oh it's kind of like entertainment um but

00:26:48 SPEAKER_00
right it's it's a it's

00:26:57 SPEAKER_03
like i don't know different strokes for different folks kind of deal you know and um I'm pretty boring.

00:27:03 SPEAKER_01
pretty boring. Do you think of yourself more as a demisexual?

00:27:11 SPEAKER_01
Kind of. Yeah. A little bit. I wouldn't particularly go out and say that.

00:27:15 SPEAKER_03
particularly go out and say that. But I think as I got older, yes. And I don't know what flipped. And I seem to be having this conversation a lot lately, and I don't know why. Something flipped at some point and having mental stimulation is what really engages me now.

00:27:32 SPEAKER_01
at some point and having

00:27:40 SPEAKER_01
stimulation is what really

00:27:45 SPEAKER_03
me now. I don't know why.

00:27:47 SPEAKER_00
why.

00:27:48 SPEAKER_03
I don't know why. Because it wasn't always like that. I was always... You know what it was?

00:27:56 SPEAKER_03
know what it was? It was... i i had somebody who i really cared for uh we were in a relationship and she passed away and i was pretty fucking devastated yes it was like i thought it was the person i was gonna spend the rest of my life with oh it's in like yeah and it's like i never i was never the type that was like i'm gonna i'm gonna get married i'm gonna have kids all of that i was never that person

00:28:05 SPEAKER_04
i was pretty

00:28:08 SPEAKER_03
was like i thought it was the person i was gonna spend the rest of my life with oh it's in like yeah and it's like i never i was never the type that was like i'm gonna i'm gonna get married i'm gonna have kids all of that i was never that person I thought I was going to, you know, I had like a rockstar dream. And like, I thought I was going to be like, it's rockstar. And like,

00:28:20 SPEAKER_00
was going to,

00:28:26 SPEAKER_03
I thought I was going to, you know, like just be single forever and like fucking party to my, you know,

00:28:26 SPEAKER_00
thought I was going to, you

00:28:31 SPEAKER_03
party my balls off. And like, you know, and glad that never happened. And I'm glad that I settled down and chilled out. And, but I think that had a lot to do with it. And she was one of those people that I, I played that whole tape out and I thought my life was going to change. And I thought. we were going to change together and grow old, right? And it was like, it was kind of like watching Sid and Nancy kind of decide, well, maybe we're just going to grow up instead and start a family.

00:28:31 SPEAKER_00
my balls off.

00:28:56 SPEAKER_03
And I thought that's what was going to happen. And then she ended up passing away. And I had a really hard time coping with it.

00:29:01 SPEAKER_01
time coping with it. And what my solution was to that was a series of terrible fucking relationships after that.

00:29:09 SPEAKER_01
my solution was to that was a series of terrible fucking

00:29:15 SPEAKER_03
relationships after that.

00:29:21 SPEAKER_03
And trying to live out that life with the next person who would be willing to stay long enough to try to figure that out. And for me to realize that it wasn't actually her. And then I was like, well, fuck it. Nothing's working. I'm going to try to, I made like this list of, it's like a sexual bucket list. Right. And I would show it to people every time I met somebody and I would have them sign their name next to it. Um, every time I accomplished something. So like, it was like super honest because that was the only way I knew I could operate in good faith with something like that. Right. And it was so stupid and it's such a fucking guy thing, you know? And, uh, it's kind of like a tally,

00:29:58 SPEAKER_04
it's kind of like a tally, right? Okay. I did this. I did this.

00:30:03 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. And it was one of those, like, almost like a cliche, like once I finished this list, I'm going to feel better. And, and, and I know you're probably getting your rocks off on this. Because I'm having this moment during like this, as I'm like,

00:30:14 SPEAKER_00
moment during like

00:30:18 SPEAKER_03
like, I didn't even get that far into the list, honestly. And which each person who like signed their name next to it, or I talked to about it and like told them the story, like I just felt fucking worse about myself. Like, and, and it,

00:30:32 SPEAKER_00
and, and

00:30:33 SPEAKER_03
it, I felt gross and like, you know, and, and even when things are like honest and consensual and.

00:30:39 SPEAKER_03
even when things are like honest and consensual and. everyone's having like a quote, good time. It's like, I, it, it was, it was like empty. It was really weird. And I feel like it was just,

00:30:52 SPEAKER_04
feel like it was just, it needed to be about the person. Like, do you feel like there was just the, the personal connection missing rather than just like a checklist of, Oh, I did a threesome check. Oh, I did this.

00:31:03 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Yeah. I mean like that stuff is cool or whatever. I don't, I'm not going to knock anybody who's like into this stuff. Right. And, um,

00:31:12 SPEAKER_03
But like, I think that you're right, that it was, it was about the person. And like, I was trying, you know, in those situations, I was trying to mask a lot of emotional,

00:31:20 SPEAKER_00
you know, in

00:31:25 SPEAKER_03
intimate pain with sexual energy that was only making it worse because the sexual energy and euphoria and just everything that comes with like orgasm and connection and intimacy, that was all actually driven by

00:31:29 SPEAKER_00
was only

00:31:37 SPEAKER_03
everything that comes with like orgasm and connection and intimacy, that was all actually driven by by emotional connection like strong emotional connections right right and and that can only be really really found with this is like circling back to the original point where we started right that can really only be found when you're like being honest with yourself being honest and vulnerable with another human being and and like exploring that and and it's like it's i don't know how to explain it it's like a different realm of being with another human being and uh i say it all the time but it's like it's it's when you find yourself so god religion or god into it but it's like whenever you find yourself closest to god is when you find the the most truth and and and uh energy that is worth uh living in and um you know that was just the path that i took but it it helped me kind of understand that like i was just a fucking silly boy fucking around doing stupid shit that wasn't important and

00:32:19 SPEAKER_00
yourself closest

00:32:26 SPEAKER_03
living in and um

00:32:30 SPEAKER_03
know that was just the path that i took but it it helped me kind of understand that like i was just a fucking silly boy fucking around doing stupid shit that wasn't important and Even though I was being honest and open about what my goals were and what I was trying to accomplish, it left me far shittier of an emotional mess that I had to clean up, by the way. I had to contend with all of those feelings. Right.

00:33:00 SPEAKER_03
I think in doing so, though, I was able to really open up.

00:33:09 SPEAKER_03
These areas that I had locked up in my intimacy and the way that I was willing to explore myself with other human beings and vice versa. I became less selfish because I was so selfish. That selfishness actually came out of anger and pain. I didn't know that until after I looked at that.

00:33:29 SPEAKER_00
I looked

00:33:31 SPEAKER_03
There was this book and I recommend it all the fucking time and I can't remember the name of it, man. Oh, bummer.

00:33:32 SPEAKER_02
was this

00:33:39 SPEAKER_03
It's in, it was called, it's called Love Addict. And I think it's, it's called, I remember the author. It's got like, like a cartoon sticky figure person on the front. It's got little hearts. And I think it's like, her name was like, I think it was sure Meredith. I don't remember. I'll have to find it. I'm still, I just recently recommended it and I can't find it anymore. So I have to like look for this, but. If I do, I'll let you know so you can tag it. Oh, absolutely. It's basically a book that I found at a thrift shop.

00:34:10 SPEAKER_04
absolutely. It's

00:34:19 SPEAKER_03
And though I didn't consider myself a love addict, sexual addict, I found myself trying to bury parts of myself, other people, with emotion. And I was avoiding that. So I thought this list, right? And it was only with like really kind of just looking at that self in the mirror that I was able to really kind of unpack a lot of that stuff.

00:34:49 SPEAKER_03
of unpack a lot of that stuff. And that book, I don't know what it was about that book. It just made such a profound impact on my life. And I think growing back to like the mom thing, growing up and watching people in abusive relationships, I also exhibited. some of those, uh, like codependent behaviors. Right. And, and so I went, I went from like being this alcoholic, selfish, alcoholic person to being like this super codependent person. And then finally landed somewhere in the middle. Right. Right. Sober at it, conscience, conscious. And, uh, right. And now we're into like, well, I don't know why intellect and stimulating conversation turns me on. And it's like, well, because exploring answers is kind of how I got here.

00:35:35 SPEAKER_04
Oh, for sure. You know, and what does everybody say? One of the biggest sexual organs that we have is our brain. You know, like that's, that's just it. You know, like you, yes, you can get stimulated by touch. Right. Of course. But that doesn't mean that your brain is engaged. It doesn't mean you're going to reach that.

00:35:49 SPEAKER_00
Of course.

00:35:55 SPEAKER_04
You kind of need all the. areas touched to to reach the max and i've been in different relationships too where it's like not all the parts are touched and it's limiting yeah yeah no it it really is um i i think there's something important about like and it's like i i know there's dudes out there who are like say this and be like that's so lame

00:36:10 SPEAKER_01
no it it really is um i

00:36:15 SPEAKER_01
i think there's something important about like and it's like i i

00:36:21 SPEAKER_03
know there's dudes out there who are like say this and be like that's so lame i know i get it i get it i thought so too but like it seemed like something i would see in a movie and it might have been romantic so i tried it and it's like like there was a point or period where i explored foreplay with partners partner particularly and um it wasn't like

00:36:33 SPEAKER_03
seemed like something i would see in a movie and it might have been romantic so i tried it and it's like like

00:36:41 SPEAKER_03
there was a point or period where i explored

00:36:45 SPEAKER_01
foreplay with partners partner

00:36:50 SPEAKER_01
and um it

00:36:53 SPEAKER_01
wasn't like

00:36:55 SPEAKER_03
we're just sitting there going down on each other, blowjobs or whatever the fuck. Right. Like it was none of this stuff. It was, it was like, Hey, what if,

00:37:02 SPEAKER_01
what if we just like touched like for real?

00:37:09 SPEAKER_03
real? Right. Like, and you're just kind of like sitting almost in silence. And then it's all like, I don't know how to explain it because it sounds stupid, but it's like,

00:37:18 SPEAKER_03
don't know how to explain it because it sounds stupid, but it's like, it's like like even like literally just holding someone's hand in darkness and like you're just holding your partner's hand or like and it's like at some point you realize that when you're holding somebody's hand your hands are interlocked and you're you know you're kind of like touching their skin with your fingers or your palms or whatever you realize like that's another human being yeah there's a part there's a part of me

00:37:25 SPEAKER_01
and like you're

00:37:31 SPEAKER_03
it's like at some point you realize that when you're holding somebody's hand your hands are interlocked and you're you know you're kind of like touching their skin with your fingers or your palms or whatever you realize like that's another human being yeah there's a part there's a part of me when I'm touching that like I end and they begin and I'm, I'm touching them and that skin, that skin, that's theirs. And, and more than so than that, they're not that skin because the connection I feel to that person is beyond that somewhere way beyond that.

00:38:01 SPEAKER_01
so than

00:38:04 SPEAKER_03
the connection I feel to that person is beyond that somewhere way beyond that. And that the only thing I'm touching is some, some receptor that's going to tell them that I'm here.

00:38:08 SPEAKER_00
And that

00:38:14 SPEAKER_03
Right. And remind them that I'm in proximity to them and that. or sharing is only kind of like an exchange of communication with these like bodies and like it's it's fucking weird dude like i don't know how to explain it but like at some point all of those things kind of like toss your mind if you're like really paying attention and and then it's almost like just being in proximity to each other can become hyper stimulating

00:38:45 SPEAKER_03
And I've noticed that you can't just do that with anybody. That has to be with somebody that you are really close to. Right. And it's fucking wild that you can be so close to another human being like that.

00:38:58 SPEAKER_04
Well, think of the difference between people that maybe would use a sex doll versus being with a person. The difference between that, not that you can't get off with a sex doll, not that you couldn't.

00:39:11 SPEAKER_00
you couldn't.

00:39:12 SPEAKER_04
But it is so different that it's just, it's mind -blowing to think, you know, and I always wonder about these people that spend all this money on a sex doll. Like, they're like, you know, I don't know, thousands of dollars, right? Do they not? You know, and I have sex toys. I have tons of them. I have like, I don't know, probably 70 sex toys. Yes, I get off with them. It is a lot of sex toys.

00:39:35 SPEAKER_00
I get off with them.

00:39:38 SPEAKER_04
Yes, I get off with them. Yes, I love them. And I love my alone time. it's still not another person so how you know is that ever enough for people yeah i mean i don't like i i'm like the biggest introvert in the fucking world and like i talk to people all the time right and so like people like there's no way and i am i really am and uh even even when i'm out in the world like i talk to people and stuff but it's like as an introvert like all of the social skills like

00:39:46 SPEAKER_01
know is that ever enough for people yeah

00:39:51 SPEAKER_03
i mean i don't like i i'm

00:39:56 SPEAKER_03
like the biggest introvert in the fucking world and like i talk to people all the time right and so like people like there's no way and i am i really am and uh even even when i'm out in the world like i talk to people and stuff but it's like as an introvert like all of the social skills like They're just social skills. Yeah. But I identify as somebody who really likes to be alone. I enjoy my alone time. I do too.

00:40:22 SPEAKER_04
too. Yeah.

00:40:23 SPEAKER_03
And even with the wildest of my imagination, I like to pretend that I would be okay on some deserted island with nobody around and that it's just me and God out there having a conversation about whatever the fuck.

00:40:36 SPEAKER_00
that it's just me

00:40:40 SPEAKER_01
the fuck.

00:40:44 SPEAKER_01
But I think even though I think I might be okay with the notion that it's just me and God out there,

00:40:50 SPEAKER_03
I might be okay with the notion that it's just me and God out there, that it would get lonely.

00:40:57 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Yeah. There's just no... Even when you're just sitting there thinking about your wildest dreams and just masturbating, it's not the same. That's not the point. Right.

00:41:13 SPEAKER_04
And there's nothing wrong with masturbation. I want to say that I like I masturbate all the time. I think it's a wonderful thing. It's a it's a way to learn your body. It's a way to, you know, feel pleasure. But yeah, it's different. And you can't pretend that it's the same thing because it's not.

00:41:31 SPEAKER_00
You also have to have the right partner,

00:41:31 SPEAKER_04
also have to have the right partner, right? Like if you don't have the right partner, like I've been, you know, where, you know, being with myself, masturbating is better than being with my partner. and that's a weird place to be let me tell you i'm just kidding let me tell you a story no no it really it really is a really weird place to be and um yes since since we're on the subject i think there was after coming out of that that uh that cliche guy movie of of like a bucket list like that whole thing coming out of that there was a period where i kind of

00:41:46 SPEAKER_03
tell you i'm just kidding let me tell you a story no no

00:41:49 SPEAKER_04
no no

00:41:50 SPEAKER_03
it really it really is a really weird place to be and um yes since since we're on the subject i think there was after coming out of that that uh that cliche guy movie of of like a bucket list like that whole thing coming out of that there

00:42:05 SPEAKER_02
like a

00:42:09 SPEAKER_03
was a period where i kind of Like I was like, I'm done. I'm fucking done. I'm not talking to another human being. It's just me and Pornhub and, and whatever the fuck. Right. And then there was a period where I was like, that's actually probably not really cool. So I'm just going to be complete abstinent. Right. That's, that's my, right. And I went down that rabbit hole as well. And all of those things taught me a lesson, but like there's,

00:42:30 SPEAKER_02
down that

00:42:32 SPEAKER_03
of those things taught me a lesson, but like there's, there's a happy medium somewhere. Yes.

00:42:40 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, because the whole like preferring the masturbation to preferring to to the partner thing.

00:42:41 SPEAKER_04
the whole

00:42:43 SPEAKER_03
like preferring the masturbation to preferring to to the partner thing. Yeah, that's. What do you think? Not to flip the tables here, but like, what do you think causes something like that?

00:42:58 SPEAKER_04
I think it comes from the partner being very selfish and.

00:43:05 SPEAKER_04
The not me.

00:43:07 SPEAKER_01
That's hilarious.

00:43:10 SPEAKER_04
If you're in a relationship with someone who very rarely pleasures you, very rarely pays attention to your pleasure, and it's more about them getting off, this is where I was. You're going to get to the point where you'd rather actually masturbate and pleasure yourself alone than with the person. And you don't care if you don't have sex with the other person. And that's a really hard place to be because we're humans. We're relational, right? And I want to be relational. But if I'm with a person who doesn't give a fuck about me climaxing, I would rather do it myself because, number one, I can do it better myself. I know exactly what I'm feeling moment by moment. And I'm not going to have to feel like they're more important than I am. Like there's not this sort of like... you know, plastic box or mold put over me where I have to pretend like they're more important than I am. And this is what societies often will deliver to women that their sexuality, their pleasure is less important than the man's. And so I've been there, I've done that. And I just, in those kinds of situations, I'd rather just fucking fuck myself.

00:44:27 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, because then otherwise it feels like pulling teeth and like it's a chore or something like that. It's obligatory,

00:44:37 SPEAKER_04
obligatory, right? It's obligation.

00:44:39 SPEAKER_03
That sucks.

00:44:41 SPEAKER_04
That sucks. Right. That's not cool. You know, that's not collaborative. That's not, to me, that's not even being in a real relationship. That's being in like a, I don't know, a slave situation. And yes, okay, there's kinks about slaves. I totally get that. But there's a difference between it being a role play, conversational, consensual slave situation to being more abusive situation.

00:44:45 SPEAKER_02
know, that's not collaborative.

00:45:06 SPEAKER_04
They're completely different.

00:45:09 SPEAKER_03
Right. Are you talking about like, can you give me an example? Because I think I might be misunderstanding your analogy right now.

00:45:15 SPEAKER_01
now. You mean about like the witch part?

00:45:21 SPEAKER_03
I was imagining a situation where maybe a partner is not so into the other partner for whatever reason. And it was unclear to me which partner was dissatisfied with the other partner. But one partner found themselves masturbating more versus the other one just kind of like whatever.

00:45:44 SPEAKER_03
And it's still, you can kind of flip -flop which one might be the satisfied, dissatisfied one. Kind of go both ways.

00:45:50 SPEAKER_02
of go both

00:45:52 SPEAKER_03
And then we got into slaves somehow, and I have no idea where that turn campened.

00:45:57 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, I guess I was thinking of me being not satisfied and the other partner being satisfied. They're climaxing and I'm not. Oh, you gotcha.

00:46:05 SPEAKER_02
you gotcha.

00:46:07 SPEAKER_04
Right. So then I'd rather just go off and do it myself. And this can also play into a situation where a woman... might fake her orgasm just to get it. That's what I was going to say.

00:46:18 SPEAKER_03
That's what I was going to say. Yeah. Yeah. Classic like, oh yeah, that feels good. Yeah.

00:46:22 SPEAKER_04
good.

00:46:24 SPEAKER_02
Just go fucking go away and I can fucking take care of my fucking self.

00:46:24 SPEAKER_04
go fucking go away and I can fucking take care of my fucking self. Yeah. That's a bad situation to be in, right? Like that's, that's not collaborative. That's not a good relationship, but I've been there. So I get it. But at the same time, I've been there and it sucks. You've been there.

00:46:38 SPEAKER_03
at the same time, I've been there and it sucks. You've

00:46:40 SPEAKER_04
You've been there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.

00:46:41 SPEAKER_03
Oh yeah. Oh, for sure.

00:46:42 SPEAKER_04
for sure.

00:46:43 SPEAKER_03
It's harder to be in that situation as a dude, by the way. For obvious reasons. Yeah.

00:46:50 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. You guys have a little bit easier time.

00:46:57 SPEAKER_01
Being.

00:47:01 SPEAKER_03
The lying situation, right? Like the, oh, shit, I'm going to. Yeah, it's easy to face. Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:04 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, it's easy to face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a better word to use.

00:47:07 SPEAKER_03
I think that's a better word to use.

00:47:09 SPEAKER_04
Well, yeah, because we get clit boners, but it's not visible. Right. You know, for men. a bone or an erection is visible. You can't fake it. Mine's barely visible,

00:47:13 SPEAKER_02
You know,

00:47:18 SPEAKER_02
barely visible, but yeah.

00:47:25 SPEAKER_04
There's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, it's true because we can fake it because it's inside our bodies. You know, I went most of my life not realizing that the clitoris could get hard, that it was an erectile tissue, that it was something that would get hard and, you know, ejaculate just as a male does. because i didn't see it and so many women don't realize that this happens and you know you always hear about the morning wood right well women have morning woods too we we climax we get hard on i'm not climax we get hard all throughout the night sleeping and i talked to this one doctor who talked about how how many you know erections you have during the night actually tells you how women but women have them too and so i would say probably

00:47:52 SPEAKER_00
have morning

00:48:00 SPEAKER_04
talked to this one doctor who talked about how how many you know erections you have during the night actually tells you how women but women have them too and so i would say probably I don't know. 96 % of the population don't know this.

00:48:18 SPEAKER_03
Do you guys get more boners than males in sleep?

00:48:22 SPEAKER_04
I don't know the numbers, but I don't even think that most people realize that women have them because it's not visible, right? Yeah,

00:48:29 SPEAKER_03
it's not visible, right? Yeah, I'm starting to suspect that this is why you guys steal the blanket in the middle of the night. Yes.

00:48:38 SPEAKER_03
Trying to hide the boner.

00:48:40 SPEAKER_04
Right. And it's crazy to me, like, to think about, like, my entire life I've been having clit boners while I'm sleeping, and I didn't even fucking know. Like, this is, like, disturbing to me that I've, because, you know, the morning wood is glorified, you know? Like, oh, you know, he's got a morning wood. You got to fucking use it. It's hot. And it is hot.

00:48:49 SPEAKER_00
is,

00:49:01 SPEAKER_04
But at the same time, it's like, I went. the majority of my life not even knowing that I was getting clit boners. That I ever got clit boners. That it was even a thing. That disturbs me that I didn't know until recently that that was a thing that was happening to my body. That's annoying and that pisses me off.

00:49:20 SPEAKER_03
annoying and that pisses me off. You know what's funny is after our episode aired on the Stack Podcast, I got text messages from buddies who listened to that episode like, fucking boners, bro.

00:49:35 SPEAKER_03
Seriously? It is what it is.

00:49:37 SPEAKER_04
So they were mad that they found out that women have boners? They were mad about it?

00:49:41 SPEAKER_03
I don't think they were mad. They just brought it up. It was like the first thing they brought up. The clip boners. I thought it was pretty funny.

00:49:49 SPEAKER_04
was pretty funny. And I guess to me, it's just kind of sad that people don't know that this happens. There's such a divide between men and women that they think that it's different. Like, no, it's happening to women too. It's a thing.

00:50:06 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. No, I mean,

00:50:07 SPEAKER_01
I'm not surprised.

00:50:13 SPEAKER_03
I mean, I'm just trying not to be a fucking dick and bring up like mustaches here. But like,

00:50:18 SPEAKER_00
I mean, if we're going to open that door,

00:50:18 SPEAKER_03
mean, if we're going to open that door, I mean, it happens. Shit happens. I don't know. Anatomy is fucking weird and people are wild and complicated and bodies are bizarre and surprising and amusing and everything in between. I think there's this special naivety that comes with not knowing or pursuing knowledge for knowledge's sake or exploring certain things and it helps kind of engage the world in a

00:50:55 SPEAKER_01
a And I don't know.

00:51:01 SPEAKER_01
I think it's better to not know shit.

00:51:02 SPEAKER_04
better to

00:51:03 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:06 SPEAKER_04
So you'd rather not know that women get clip boners.

00:51:10 SPEAKER_03
I don't care either way. Honestly, it doesn't bother me, but like just generally speaking in, in, in a lot of things in this realm and other, you know, just engagements in the world. It's like they, there seems to be. And this is the trouble with fucking dudes, just generally speaking, right? And this is like the type of dudes where it's like the machismo is like reigning supreme, right? And it's like, there's a special like avoidance of responsibility and the emotional essence that comes with engaging in that realm and like just,

00:51:31 SPEAKER_00
And it's like, there's a special like

00:51:33 SPEAKER_03
of responsibility and the

00:51:40 SPEAKER_03
emotional essence that comes with engaging in that realm and like just, right? Like it's, I mean. you're it's fucking man child the syndrome right and like that kind of all helps you kind of just stay in a certain like world and it's fun if you're in that world i guess right it's like that the whole frat boy thing and all this shit and it's like you don't have to learn that like chicks have boners in their sleep and that may or may not be why they steal the blankets at night and also that like

00:51:52 SPEAKER_00
of all helps you kind

00:52:03 SPEAKER_03
don't have to learn that like chicks

00:52:08 SPEAKER_03
have boners in their sleep and that may or may not be why they steal the blankets at night and also that like How do you feel about that? And then have a conversation about that, right? You never have to go there. And I think that a lot of dudes get comfortable there.

00:52:22 SPEAKER_04
a lot of dudes get comfortable there. Why do men not think that's hot? Why would men not think that's hot?

00:52:27 SPEAKER_03
That chicks get boners? I have no idea. I don't know. I mean, I don't find it particularly hot. I don't think... You don't find it hot that women get turned on?

00:52:34 SPEAKER_04
don't find it hot that women get turned on?

00:52:36 SPEAKER_03
That's different, right?

00:52:39 SPEAKER_04
But it's the same. So now we're convoluting words. It's like... Right.

00:52:39 SPEAKER_03
it's the same. So now we're convoluting words. It's like... Right. If we mean boner as in like women get turned on. Yeah, that's cool.

00:52:48 SPEAKER_01
cool.

00:52:48 SPEAKER_03
Right. And, and then there's like the anatomical situation that I was talking about where it's like the,

00:52:58 SPEAKER_03
the, like the idea that like women have this whole thing that happens with inside of them that resembles something that dudes go through. And it's like from a anatomical scientific perspective, that's fascinating. But I don't approach cancer with sexual arousal either.

00:53:17 SPEAKER_04
Right. Science versus arousal. Yes.

00:53:17 SPEAKER_03
Science versus arousal. Yes. Right. Way different. Right. Like I don't.

00:53:20 SPEAKER_04
I don't.

00:53:21 SPEAKER_03
So in that sense, I think they're separate, but I compartmentalize almost everything in the world. Right. So like to me, I can have the conversation about it and not be bothered one way or the other. Most dudes hear boner turn on anatomical clitoris boner erection. You took my blanket.

00:53:28 SPEAKER_00
can have

00:53:40 SPEAKER_03
And they're like, this is fucked. Right. And I mean that it is what it is. And it's unfortunate that like there's room for people to be kind of like silly.

00:53:51 SPEAKER_03
there's room for people to be kind of like silly. And then there's room to also have the conversation that's important to have. And I think people choose to remain in the world of silly, not have the important conversations because the people that should be having the important conversations are also like. you know, parents who should be having important conversations with their, you know, young peoples and like, right. And, and so there's like this generational fuckery that happens where bad ideas are being perpetually passed on. Oh, for sure. Right. And it's like, there is a line where like a parent should have certain conversations with their child. And I, as an outsider, like if not my child, not my problem kind of thing. To a degree, right? Unless children are being abused, that's a fucking way different situation. Everyone has a fucking moral ethical obligation to step in and to stop stupid shit.

00:54:44 SPEAKER_00
has a fucking

00:54:48 SPEAKER_00
shit.

00:54:49 SPEAKER_03
Putting that to the side. Everyone has this obligation to do the best that they can to raise their children and have whatever conversations they feel comfortable having with their children about whatever. As long as it's in the realms of the law and whatnot. Outside of that, it's hard to not point out the fact that there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers handing over dumb motherfucker ideas to multiple generations. And this perpetual dumb motherfuckery is unfolding.

00:55:16 SPEAKER_03
to not point out the fact that there are a lot of dumb motherfuckers handing over dumb motherfucker ideas to multiple generations. And this perpetual dumb motherfuckery is unfolding. Exactly.

00:55:25 SPEAKER_04
perpetual dumb motherfuckery

00:55:28 SPEAKER_03
Right. It is.

00:55:29 SPEAKER_04
is. It is really annoying. And the bottom line is we should be focusing on pleasure and connection. and not this other shit right like that's to me what is most important is the pleasure that you can give each other and the connection you have and you know like that's more important than this other shit but yes you're right stuff gets passed down over and over again bullshit that's just fucking stupid shit is getting passed down from one generation to another unless people stop it in it but it only can get stopped if these people are like enlightened somehow they're they're they're you know a lot of people are closed off and they're not going to listen to anything else than what they think is right right yeah and then like there's also like and i know you you emphasize and lead with with the idea of you know seeking pleasure and and um and exploring and and being open and all this do you do you find i don't know for me i get burnt out on this stuff

00:56:17 SPEAKER_03
and then like there's also like and i know you you emphasize and lead with with the idea of you know seeking pleasure and and um and exploring and and being open and all this do you do you find i don't know for me i get burnt out on this stuff Like there's only so much like hedonism I can kind of like take right before it's like, well, I'm so stuffed on chocolate ice cream that like I could not possibly have anymore because it's just grotesque.

00:56:48 SPEAKER_04
possibly have anymore because

00:56:51 SPEAKER_03
Right. And do you ever find you find that boundary for yourself?

00:56:56 SPEAKER_04
I do not because I went most of my life not. ever tasting the chocolate ice cream. So now I'm like, give me the fucking chocolate ice cream. I'm fucking overload because I went decades without enjoying, without finding pleasure, without, you know, accepting that I deserve pleasure in seeking that. So for me, I'm all the, you know, and I think part of it too is being a woman. Like when you're young, when I was young, there's this whole attitude of, Oh, you know, young boys, they're going to go in the shower and they're going to masturbate. Like it's acceptable. Right. But for women, for young girls, it's like, oh, no, it's like taboo is not supposed to happen. You're not supposed to touch yourself. You're not supposed to get off. But young men, oh, they get off.

00:57:40 SPEAKER_02
happen. You're not supposed

00:57:45 SPEAKER_02
get off. Yeah.

00:57:47 SPEAKER_04
Right. It's like glorified and clapped and like, hey, that's fucking awesome. Way to go, bro. You fucking came, you know, and like. Girls are like, oh, no, you're not supposed to touch yourself. You're not supposed to enjoy your body. You're not supposed to cum. You're not supposed to have these amazing hormones that make you feel amazing flooding your body. So for me, I'm coming from a starving situation. So I am not tired of the chocolate cake, the chocolate ice cream. Sorry, I switched the thing.

00:58:02 SPEAKER_00
for me,

00:58:11 SPEAKER_04
I want all the...

00:58:11 SPEAKER_02
want all the...

00:58:13 SPEAKER_04
Give me all the fucking chocolate ice cream. Choke me with it. I want to fucking marinate in it. I want to fucking roll in it. My naked body touching every fucking spot because I was so denied for so long. So no, I do not get overloaded. I do not get turned off. It is give me fucking more.

00:58:14 SPEAKER_00
the fucking chocolate ice cream.

00:58:26 SPEAKER_02
no, I

00:58:34 SPEAKER_01
Gotcha. Yeah.

00:58:36 SPEAKER_03
As soon as as soon as I come, I'm done. I don't touch me. Sure, sure, sure. I'm done. I'm tapped out, guys. It's enough when Elijah can confirmate.

00:58:48 SPEAKER_04
But a lot of men can't come. Women can come multiple times. And this is something I've spent the majority of my life not being able to do. Now I can come in the fucking double digits, right? But I spent the majority of my life not being able to do that, not understanding it, not even understanding for the majority of my life what it means to climax. Do you know what it feels like? to go your majority of your life to not understand what it means to orgasm like can you even like fathom that you probably can't because most i think i don't think most dudes can though because i think most dudes yeah it's like they look at a pair of titties and it's over right right and so this is like a total this is like apples to oranges to the max right yeah yeah i mean and there's no there's no comparing the two right like no

00:59:18 SPEAKER_03
think i don't think most dudes can though because i think most dudes yeah it's like they look at a pair of titties and it's over right right

00:59:26 SPEAKER_04
and so this is like a total this is like apples to oranges to the max right yeah

00:59:33 SPEAKER_03
i mean and there's no there's no comparing the two right like no There's not. And not even close, right? And I think that you bring up an interesting point. And I think we touched on it last time we spoke. And it was about the cultural norms,

00:59:47 SPEAKER_03
was about the cultural norms, the traditional cultural norms as exhibited probably in your generation,

00:59:56 SPEAKER_03
exhibited probably in your generation, my generation. I don't know how old you are.

01:00:02 SPEAKER_04
I'm older than you. Yeah.

01:00:04 SPEAKER_03
I know you can tell that.

01:00:05 SPEAKER_04
know you can tell that.

01:00:07 SPEAKER_03
and and so like it's i don't know if that actually is like how it happened and how it unfolded and how like that that norm was actually perpetuated or if it was just like a story that was told or just my experience was wildly different because like i know people who who kind of existed in that like like uh

01:00:14 SPEAKER_03
don't know if that actually is like how it happened and how it unfolded and how like that that norm was actually perpetuated or if it was just like a story that was told or just my experience was wildly different because like i know people who who kind of existed in that like like uh you know boners are funny and like masturbating's fucking laughable and you know everything dick and fart jokes was just you know comedy and like it was you know high fives bro and like whatever the fuck and like women needed to be like pristine and like you know perfect princesses like and that whole nonsense too and like i know that those existed around me but like i kind of grew up in a more like

01:00:44 SPEAKER_00
you know high fives

01:00:47 SPEAKER_03
like women needed to be like pristine and like you know perfect princesses like and that whole nonsense too and like i know that those existed around me but like i kind of grew up in a more like

01:01:06 SPEAKER_03
like small c conservative household right like um it like for anyone who doesn't know what small c conservative means just like conservative in values not in political nature um and so like for me it like anything sexual like even like tv any like beavis and butthead was too much like it was just too much right okay yeah and so and so like anything sexual was like a no -go zone

01:01:12 SPEAKER_03
for anyone who doesn't know what small c conservative means just like conservative in values not in political nature um and so like for me it like anything sexual like even like tv any like beavis and butthead was too much like it was just too much right

01:01:29 SPEAKER_04
right okay yeah and so

01:01:30 SPEAKER_03
yeah and so and so like anything sexual was like a no -go zone Uh, you can, cause as immediate,

01:01:35 SPEAKER_04
you can, cause as immediate, like, no.

01:01:37 SPEAKER_03
Right. Yeah. We never even talked about sex. Like we pretend like it didn't exist. Like it was,

01:01:43 SPEAKER_00
it was,

01:01:43 SPEAKER_03
was, it was fucking bizarre. Um, and I think that had a lot to do with like my own kind of like engagements in the world of like sexuality and stuff and,

01:01:46 SPEAKER_00
and I

01:01:50 SPEAKER_03
own kind of like engagements in the world of like sexuality and stuff and, and like being willing to kind of like open that door to, you know, is there, hello, is there anybody out there? Like what is going on?

01:02:02 SPEAKER_02
on?

01:02:03 SPEAKER_03
And, um, I guess you can only find that kind of adventure coming from like a super fucking prudish family. Cause that's really what it was. And it was for everybody. Like everyone kind of operated in this and, um,

01:02:20 SPEAKER_03
I don't know. And then I, I, I know I wasn't the only one. Right. And so as a male, it was kind of weird, not, you know, cause I'm watching like American pie. And yes, it's all fucking nonsense with the boners. Right. And like sticking your dick and stuff and like high five and like, you know, the goofy dad. I didn't have any of that.

01:02:37 SPEAKER_00
like, you know, the goofy dad. I

01:02:40 SPEAKER_03
Right. Just simply watching that movie or talking about it was fucking weird.

01:02:40 SPEAKER_04
Just simply

01:02:44 SPEAKER_04
Right. Right. You know, and I actually was I had an interview this earlier today. We were talking about that. The media influence of movies, of popular movies and how that influences our sexuality. Whether we fucking like it or not, those movies do influence our sexuality and it influences what turns us on. And I talked about how, you know, that can sometimes make people angry. Like, I don't want to be turned on by that. How dare the media put that in my fucking face when I was vulnerable and influence my sexuality to this point? Like, we're kind of victims a little bit, right? So we have to figure out how to deal with that shit.

01:03:26 SPEAKER_03
Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, you bring up a good point, just generally speaking. And you did this last time we talked too, and I hate to just keep bringing this in, but you're really good at highlighting certain things that I, for myself, have never really drawn parallels to into the world of sexuality because I keep it kind of vanilla. And I really like stimulating conversation and talking about broad topics and in -depth exploration of those topics. This is a place that I don't dive into so much. This idea that cultural media influences have pernicious effects in the world of sexuality, it's not surprising.

01:04:08 SPEAKER_03
effects in the world of sexuality, it's not surprising. We do it. we're constantly in this weird Plato's cave of like nonsense. And it's just like interchangeable with whatever kind of like media digestion we're like producing here. So like the idea that like sexual content is coming into a person's mind and it's shaping the way that we kind of emerge as people through cultural influences. It's like, it's, it's, it's almost like, well, duh. Right. But there is this other part of this where, unlike plato's cave where you're shackled to the floor in this case there is almost like a personal responsibility to uh to participate or not participate in this case right because right for something like american pie it's like i i get where you're coming from 100 then there's this other part it's like like millions of people watch that and they paid money to do so so like how do how do we like Right. Like, so like where are those lines at in, in whether like as a whole, we're accepting this kind of nonsense because it's pervasive throughout our cultural norms or how much of this are we adopting as new as some kind of like teaching that we pass on. And then how much of this is damaging as, you know, you know, gender roles go and, and so forth. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, there's so many questions about this. Yeah.

01:05:39 SPEAKER_04
questions about this. Yeah. Yeah, I sort of feel like I was a victim to the movies I saw when I was a younger person. Like, for instance, did you ever watch Revenge of the Nerds?

01:05:52 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I vaguely remember that one, but I've seen it probably a couple times, yeah.

01:05:56 SPEAKER_04
Right. Okay, so that's one movie I saw as a younger person. And for me, it was all about what turns men on. What, you know, like, for instance, like her... That was 80s, right?

01:06:08 SPEAKER_02
80s, right?

01:06:10 SPEAKER_04
Right. Like Betty was in Betty's picture of her topless was in the bottom of the fucking pie. Like you eat the pie and there's fucking Betty with her tits. Right. So for me, so for me, I was exposed to a lot of exhibitionism, women being a sex symbol. And to me, that ended up turning into that being hot. Like that was something that turns me on. And it still does. And so I sort of sometimes feel like.

01:06:39 SPEAKER_02
like.

01:06:41 SPEAKER_04
No, Betty. It was not Betty White. Betty White is much older. I thought her name was Betty. I can't remember. Maybe I don't remember it right. But anyways, she her picture was in the bottom of the fucking pie. And so like it was her topless at the bottom of the fucking pie. You eat the pie and there's fucking.

01:06:54 SPEAKER_00
so like

01:07:00 SPEAKER_04
Okay, woman. I won't say Betty because I can't remember if that was her name. It was woman with titties, right? Like, and she's naked. And so like, you know, people were buying these pies and they ate the pie and then she was at the bottom of the pie. And so for me, some of the stuff I saw was, you know, the male gaze, the male like, oh, you know, it turns him on to see titties. So for me, it ends up being. Seeing titties is hot. And so like I internalize that. Like people talk about internalizing misogyny or patriarchy.

01:07:24 SPEAKER_00
it ends

01:07:34 SPEAKER_04
Sometimes I get pissed off that that kind of shit turns me on. At the same time, I like that it turns me on. So there's like this weird dichotomy where I'm trying to like figure out what turns me on.

01:07:43 SPEAKER_00
turns me on.

01:07:45 SPEAKER_04
Like what turns me on.

01:07:46 SPEAKER_00
turns me on.

01:07:48 SPEAKER_04
Right. But at the same time, I can't like unsee it. Like I've already seen that movie. It already impacted me. It's already impacted my sexuality. I can't unsee it. I can't erase it from my fucking brain. You know, like there's pathways in my brain that have already led to that. Like that's sexy. You know, and so it's hard to like separate between what do I find sexy and what has society put in my brain as sexy. In the end, it all ends up being sexy and I have like kind of a little to no control over it.

01:08:23 SPEAKER_01
over it.

01:08:30 SPEAKER_01
Right. So then my question is, if you were brainwashed, could we not just rewash your brain?

01:08:33 SPEAKER_03
just rewash your brain?

01:08:37 SPEAKER_04
How do you do that? So to me, it's still sexy to be sexy in the visual realm, right? Like to find other people finding me sexy is sexy to me. So how would you possibly even do that? Psychologically, I've talked to people who have been like sex coaches and relationship coaches who say you need to just reframe that,

01:08:56 SPEAKER_02
who say you need to just reframe

01:08:58 SPEAKER_04
that, right? You just need to reframe it.

01:09:00 SPEAKER_02
You just need to reframe

01:09:00 SPEAKER_04
just need to reframe it.

01:09:02 SPEAKER_02
And you reframe it and you own it and it is how you want it instead of it being you being a victim to it.

01:09:02 SPEAKER_04
you reframe it and you own it and it is how you want it instead of it being you being a victim to it. Yeah. Right?

01:09:11 SPEAKER_04
But how does one erase their sexual influences of their youth? I don't know that it's possible.

01:09:21 SPEAKER_03
Let me call Freud one second.

01:09:25 SPEAKER_03
I mean, it's a good question. I have no idea. I don't, I don't, I don't spend a, I mean, I know that I have, I have my own things from, you know, that kind of carried on and like, it's like you're, you can become aware of them. Right. And then it's like, Oh, well that makes sense.

01:09:46 SPEAKER_03
And in most cases, it's like if they're not destructive, most people don't actually do much with them anyways. And that goes for anything, any habit or any taboo or any what have you.

01:09:52 SPEAKER_00
goes for anything, any

01:09:54 SPEAKER_03
habit or any taboo or any what have you.

01:10:02 SPEAKER_03
And so, yeah, I don't know. I'm the wrong person to ask because I think that if a person really wants to change things about themselves that aren't even physicals like it depends uh that if you really want to do something you can do it um and and including your sexual preferences and engagements and likes and dislikes and that um and i don't know if that's because it flipped for me at some point and i don't know why it flipped specifically i haven't i haven't taken enough time to actually explore that maybe i should um but

01:10:38 SPEAKER_03
i haven't i haven't taken enough time to actually explore that maybe i should um but

01:10:46 SPEAKER_03
I have no idea.

01:10:47 SPEAKER_02
idea.

01:10:49 SPEAKER_02
I love your answer because I don't know either.

01:10:49 SPEAKER_04
your answer because I don't know either. I don't know the answers to this stuff. And I think it's really interesting. But I also think that if something gets me off, I'm still going to fucking use it. And the other way to think about it is, okay, yes, you're this impressionable young person and you're exposed to all these sexual things. Maybe you see a porn video. Maybe you see... revenge of the nerds whatever the fuck you see it will shape you okay so then at some point you need to decide am i gonna shy away from that and shame myself for liking that or am i just gonna fucking use it and get off right like and i feel like we should fucking use it and get off because we had no control over that you know we didn't i didn't say i want to watch your friend of the nerds and see that it's hot that a woman is naked in the bottom of a fucking pie. Like I didn't decide that that was hot. Right. But it was given to me in the form of a piece of media that I watched. And I didn't ask that. I didn't give consent to being like, this is going to be something that I find sexual, but it was fucking fed to me. Maybe force fed because we're watching these movies. And what are you going to do? You're watching a movie. You're going to run away. Even if you run away from the movie, it's still in your head. You already fucking saw it. It's too fucking late. To me, it's to the point where you just, if it turns you on, fucking use it to get off. Because the most important thing is that you find pleasure and you get those amazing hormones to give yourself pleasure. If you don't give yourself pleasure,

01:12:16 SPEAKER_00
the point

01:12:26 SPEAKER_04
yourself pleasure. If you don't give yourself pleasure, you're going to be in a bad place. Pleasure is our birthright and it is important as a part of mental health.

01:12:38 SPEAKER_03
a part of mental health. Immediately my head goes to, well, because like there's a ton of things that you like. a lot of good points you brought up. Um, and then there's, there's the arguments that could be made. Right. And so one thing that I think you highlighted that,

01:12:49 SPEAKER_04
And so

01:12:50 SPEAKER_03
thing that I think you highlighted that, and, uh, it seems to be kind of like a thread and a theme that kind of keeps emerging as this dichotomy of like, fuck, I like that, but I'm not supposed to what is going on. Right. Like you spoke about like the male gaze and the, and the, and the patriarchy and like this kind of thing. And it's, and we, we talked about that earlier and how it's like, well,

01:13:03 SPEAKER_00
Like you

01:13:08 SPEAKER_00
of thing. And it's, and we, we talked about

01:13:12 SPEAKER_03
It's to feel like they're a possession or an object, but it's like, if you don't feel like,

01:13:16 SPEAKER_04
if you

01:13:18 SPEAKER_03
you know, that's my babe, then like, what the fuck?

01:13:22 SPEAKER_04
Right, right, right. Totally. Those lines are kind of like blurred when it's like,

01:13:22 SPEAKER_03
right, right. Totally. Those lines are kind of like blurred when it's like, wait a minute, we both consent to this game we're going to play. Now let's play this game. Yes. Right. But there's a fine line. Yes, yes, yeah.

01:13:32 SPEAKER_00
there's a fine

01:13:32 SPEAKER_04
line.

01:13:36 SPEAKER_04
It controlling versus not. And that's where I think the fine line is. Are you controlling and it's about you? Or are you going to be like, this can be sexual and this can be fun for us both?

01:13:48 SPEAKER_03
Right. And I think that some people are very aware of that and some people are just not.

01:13:53 SPEAKER_01
are very aware of that and some people are just not.

01:13:56 SPEAKER_03
And the ones who are aware of it, I guess, are having hopefully a good time. And the ones who are not are not having a very good time and they should be aware of it so they can have.

01:14:02 SPEAKER_00
having a very good time and they should

01:14:05 SPEAKER_03
better times um and then there's this other part of of this whole thing where i i like where do where do paraplegics fall into this right right you know and and i have actually interviewed a few people that have been in this situation in their life and in a lot of them that's cool i mean not not for their situation but no but right but and a couple of them have said to me

01:14:09 SPEAKER_03
then there's this other part of of this whole thing where i i like where do where do paraplegics fall into this right

01:14:20 SPEAKER_04
you know and and i have actually interviewed a few people that have been in this situation in their life and in a lot of them that's

01:14:27 SPEAKER_03
cool i mean not not for their situation but no but right but

01:14:30 SPEAKER_04
but right but and a couple of them have said to me you know, things like BDSM or things that are really sensational play to them are what does it for them. And, but yeah, I mean, you know, think about that. These are people that can't do what you and I can do.

01:14:54 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. And how that impacts their quality of life, their sexuality, their sensuality.

01:15:04 SPEAKER_01
yeah and i think that i don't know if like my my vanilla nature i guess or lack of super i don't i don't even know what to say here um the way that i kind of approach this stuff i don't know if that comes from you know this can't be it it can't just be all pleasure for me like it

01:15:12 SPEAKER_01
vanilla nature i guess or lack of super

01:15:20 SPEAKER_01
don't i don't even know what to say here um

01:15:24 SPEAKER_03
way that i kind of approach this stuff i don't know if that comes from you know this can't be it it can't just be all pleasure for me like it This world, for me, this can't be all - Your pleasure or your giving pleasure?

01:15:39 SPEAKER_04
pleasure or your giving pleasure?

01:15:41 SPEAKER_03
Any of it. It can't just be the flesh. There has to be more in this earth.

01:15:46 SPEAKER_00
this earth. I hope there is because I don't know.

01:15:47 SPEAKER_03
hope there is because I don't know. It feels too superficial even in the most awesome day. It just feels like that can't just be it. And so I don't know if I'm, I'm seeking something further outside of the realm of sexuality. Um, even though like there is something to be said about the way that you can reach certain spiritual like heights through sexuality and especially with partners. Um, and, and not to mention like the healing of trauma and how powerful that is with, with partners. And like, we haven't, I don't think we've even touched that, that ever. Um, and it's like, So I don't know how much of that journey for me is like kind of stunts my understanding or maybe my intuitive feelers in the realm of sexuality.

01:16:44 SPEAKER_03
feelers in the realm of sexuality. I feel like I'm pretty in tune in that world anyways, just generally speaking. I know that I'm kind of like down talking myself a little bit about like. uh how i connect with partners and stuff and that's just because it's such an intimate thing for me that it i don't know i don't i don't feel like i've ever really had a problem in those spaces um in you know example being able to explore with my partner further after our last conversation it's like but like am i missing something right like is it is it like should i just be seeking pleasure 24 7 and like that's it That's my question. Am I, did I get this all wrong? And should I just be having orgasms?

01:17:26 SPEAKER_04
Well, do you feel like, okay, so let me ask you this. Is there a difference for you between thinking of what pleasure is and what an orgasm is?

01:17:36 SPEAKER_01
Yes. Okay. How so?

01:17:42 SPEAKER_03
Well, an orgasm is just a physiological response to stimulation, right? And pleasure is, a sensational response to external stimulation. They're both responses to external stimulation, right?

01:18:00 SPEAKER_01
One's physical, and the other one doesn't necessarily have to be.

01:18:07 SPEAKER_04
I think it's really interesting because it's very different than the way I view the world. Because to me...

01:18:18 SPEAKER_04
pleasure is tied with my mental perception of pleasure so like orgasm is tied to pleasure and and maybe you know and it's really hard to compare you to me and it's hard to compare women to men because of the whole cultural difference in the way that we were we were raised right so we're generalizing pretty hard but yeah yeah

01:18:40 SPEAKER_03
so we're generalizing pretty hard but yeah yeah

01:18:46 SPEAKER_04
Definitely. I mean, you know, how do you talk about pleasure and not generalize about it? Because pleasure is different for every person, right?

01:18:54 SPEAKER_02
Right.

01:18:57 SPEAKER_04
It's subjective. It's not objective. So, you know, for pleasure, one person might be something totally weird to another person. It's not even close to being pleasurable.

01:19:08 SPEAKER_03
Right. And then we're into what you stated as the... yucking the yum right somebody else's yum yes which is such a solid way to put that and and so like the question remains though right like for me because i i'm able to see them as different things and they like it's not a primary pursuit of mine and so like maybe it's also the idea that i'm i'm a male right and yeah

01:19:37 SPEAKER_00
yeah

01:19:38 SPEAKER_03
Right. And so I'm trying to understand your perspective in the sense of pursuing with the pleasure perspective and the goal of pleasure.

01:19:50 SPEAKER_04
And, you know, for me, it's kind of the difference between being denied it culturally and societally versus being OK. And I'm really curious what other women think about this, because, you know, we're very. we're all kind of raised culturally different. And for me, you know, for me, it was always, oh, it was okay for men to have pleasure. And for me, it wasn't. And so my pleasure has always been downplayed. So for me now, I'm like all about my pleasure. In midlife, I'm like, fuck you, fuck everything. I'm having my pleasure, finally. So it's really hard to compare my experience to perhaps Man, because it's been so different, right? Yeah,

01:20:43 SPEAKER_03
like Mother Teresa.

01:20:45 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, or none, right? I think that that is like a just total fallacy just to deny your humanity and then be like, I'm not going to have sex. I think that's just bullshit. That's like saying I'm not human, but I am. To deny your humanity is ridiculous. ridiculous and how are you ever going to reach anything attainable if you deny your humanity i don't i don't even understand that sentence right well i mean i think that like i mean you would have to ask every individual who has ever right gone gone through that right and and on on a fundamental level it's like there there is something like to me that the highest thing that you can do in this world is to be of service right and i think the reason that i understand a lot of like

01:21:10 SPEAKER_03
well i mean i think that like i mean you would have to ask every individual who has ever right gone gone through that right and and on on a fundamental level it's like there there is something like to me that the highest thing that you can do in this world is to be of service right and i think the reason that i understand a lot of like the things that you put down and understand it, not fully like I understand you or that I know you or in that sense, but that I can appreciate your perspective is it's very clear that you lead with some kind of service to others. And you say that when you're talking about sharing with a partner and being vulnerable with a partner.

01:21:46 SPEAKER_00
when you're

01:21:53 SPEAKER_03
It gets very clear that there is a theme there. And so this is why I was really fascinated to talk to you. Um,

01:22:02 SPEAKER_03
and I often look at things through the lens of service. Um, and, and how much of that is, you know, in mother Teresa's case, right? Like it, it may be bullshit from a perspective of everything, uh, should be led through the lens of pleasure and, uh, uh, sexual, sexual freedom and expression. But from her perspective. Maybe it's the sacrifice, right? And the sacrifice is what leads to some kind of a spiritual orgasm. And then we're arguing, well, which orgasm is better? That which is pleasurable because of the flesh or that which is pleasurable because of God. And then it's like to each their own, right? And so if you're pursuing the same outcome,

01:22:46 SPEAKER_03
you're pursuing the same outcome, which is maximizing pursuit of happiness in proximity to what is attainable to you, through whatever medium of expression that you choose to partake in, then what's the difference? And so my question is like, why pursue it the way that you do? And why don't I pursue it that way too? What am I missing? I spent my entire life serving others until I hit about midlife when I decided I was important enough to pursue.

01:23:11 SPEAKER_04
missing? I spent my entire life serving others until I hit about midlife when I decided I was important enough to pursue. my interests, my desires, my pleasure. So you talk to someone who has spent decades taking care of others, putting others above herself, okay? So I started this life as a young person, you know, 18, 19. My pleasures were important, sort of. I was a young person. I did not have children. I did not have a husband. I did not have a partner. My pleasures were a little bit important, but not so much because society told me they weren't that important. Okay. Then I entered a relationship. My, I completely lost myself. I completely lost my pleasure. I completely lost who I fucking was because I was serving everyone else or myself. Okay. That went on until about midlife when I realized what the fuck I was doing. And so. It's really, really hard to compare what I've gone through to what other people have gone through. Unless you've lived decades serving others and putting others above yourself. This is a very different situation.

01:24:37 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Right. We're back into this. I mean, at least the way that I see it is that those lines between serving.

01:24:49 SPEAKER_01
Others because of something higher, a higher calling, right? Serving others as a bondage, right? Because in your situation,

01:25:04 SPEAKER_03
your situation, it's very clear that it comes from that servitude was painful, right? Where in a Mother Teresa situation, not to just keep bringing Mother Teresa up. It's just, I don't know why that's my thing right now. In a Mother Teresa situation, it's like, Her servitude is to something like an ideological thing, right? And so my point was the same, that I really do believe that people ultimately pursue that which is most selfish and most pleasurable. And for Mother Teresa, it manifests the way that it did, right? And so for you, it manifests the way that it does for you. And for me, it manifests the way that it does for me, right?

01:25:48 SPEAKER_04
Well, and I don't regret any service I've done to those I've helped, except for the people that didn't respect me back. So, you know, I definitely still enjoyed servicing and helping raise people. And so, you know, and you can't really, I mean, I guess I don't know Mother Teresa's entire life. I don't, I'm assuming she never had children. She doesn't know that realm. So it's pretty hard to compare even her to me who has had children, who has children. So it's again, you know, I don't regret helping people. I regret losing myself in the process. And I think that's the big thing for women to not lose themselves in the process of. serving others and so for you it sounds like service is a big issue or you know it might be sort of a turn on or a pinnacle perhaps for me i've done that and ignored myself so i think there needs to be a balance there needs to be a balance where women are not ignoring themselves while also servicing others yeah and this is the the yeah

01:26:58 SPEAKER_04
me i've done that and ignored myself so i think there needs to be a balance there needs to be a balance where women are not ignoring themselves while also servicing others yeah

01:27:04 SPEAKER_02
balance where

01:27:10 SPEAKER_03
and this is

01:27:10 SPEAKER_04
this is the the yeah

01:27:13 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, I think the point got lost somewhere like forest for the trees kind of thing because it wasn't really like about gender ideologies or gender roles or anything like that. And it had more to do with maximizing pleasure from doing something in service of self. And my point, my overarching point on that, I guess I should have just wrapped it up,

01:27:24 SPEAKER_00
had more to

01:27:34 SPEAKER_03
was that serving self is ultimately... like how it plays out and the maximum the most maximum good you can do for yourself and others and like your community and such and which is in like the box of service is to do what makes you happy and that was the point right and so what i meant was like that manifests for everybody differently very clearly sure right and when somebody is like doing something artistically and being themselves authentically they are service to the world in some fashion when they're doing it right and so in a situation where like i would find myself in a a relationship where i'm being used and abused and i am like quote being like in service to whatever it's like yeah but like i can also be in service to the devil and i'm not gonna feel awesome right

01:28:09 SPEAKER_00
doing it

01:28:22 SPEAKER_03
quote being like in service to whatever it's like yeah but like i can also be in service to the devil and i'm not gonna feel awesome right So if I'm in service to the wrong things, and this is back to the dichotomy, where it's like there's these lines where you can do and say or act or feel or be or not in a certain way. And there's also a spectrum of that. And if you find yourself in the wrong side of that spectrum or misaligned with what is morally...

01:29:01 SPEAKER_03
balance with your like, but through your compass and your values and your, your ideology and all of this, then you're going to find yourself in, in like in disharmony with, with what's going on around you. Right. And that quickly unfolds into situations where like abuse happens and maybe, you know, addiction or, uh, you know, you lose yourself in a situation because you're not there. Right. And I've, I've been in all of those situations and they all fucking suck. And I've seen people, I've seen women go through it and I, you know, women that I care for, like, you know, family members go through it. Some are still in situations like that because of service. So service can be like,

01:29:45 SPEAKER_03
like go down a bad path for sure.

01:29:50 SPEAKER_04
Right. Which is so interesting to me because when you said that I had an immediate negative reaction.

01:29:55 SPEAKER_03
Oh, I picked up on it. Yeah.

01:29:57 SPEAKER_04
Which is really interesting, right? Like that I had a negative, even though I have been in service and helped and I've loved helping, right? It's still maybe because I've had too much service that I haven't had enough of my own focus, you know, so then it becomes negative for me. But to me, that's really fascinating.

01:30:13 SPEAKER_00
so then it

01:30:18 SPEAKER_04
I had this conversation with this woman earlier today in a podcast interview, and we talked about how the body doesn't lie. Oh,

01:30:27 SPEAKER_02
facts. Yeah.

01:30:29 SPEAKER_04
Right. Like if you have a physical something, you can't fake anxiety, right? Like it just is. Right. You can't fake fear. It just is. You can't fake these, you know, goosebumps. Especially the pheromones.

01:30:36 SPEAKER_03
Right. You

01:30:41 SPEAKER_03
Especially the pheromones. Yeah.

01:30:44 SPEAKER_04
Like this is so interesting to me. And so like when you said that my immediate reaction was negative. And again, like I should be negative. I've enjoyed noticing people, right? No, totally, totally. And I think this is something to examine in ourselves to be like, why did I negatively react to that?

01:30:56 SPEAKER_00
noticing people,

01:31:06 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, no. And like I picked up on it. I'm sure anybody, like if this airs or not, I don't know. But like if anyone listens to it, if anyone listens to it, they're going to pick up on it too. And I think that I appreciate it because when you're honest about it and you quickly picked up and a lot of people can't do that.

01:31:12 SPEAKER_00
anyone listens to it,

01:31:17 SPEAKER_03
think that I appreciate it because when you're honest about it and you quickly picked up and a lot of people can't do that. A lot of people can be like, hey, I just had this thing and I'm going to talk about it. And I think that the power in doing that falls on deaf ears,

01:31:31 SPEAKER_00
think that

01:31:36 SPEAKER_03
deaf ears, so to speak. People don't understand that the minute you do that, you've taken all the power away from it and re -controlled your situation and gained all your power back from that. And so I'm a person who lives by the idea that no good deed goes unpunished and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So when you tell me service has actually fucked me,

01:31:38 SPEAKER_00
the minute you do

01:31:59 SPEAKER_03
has actually fucked me, I get that. That book that I can't remember, I'm going to find it, I swear to God. That's one of the biggest lessons I took away from it. And it gave me the power to say no to people. And it's incredibly powerful and how uncommon it is for people to be okay and comfortable with saying, no, I'm not going to do that. Right. That's not in my best interest. Right.

01:32:23 SPEAKER_00
that.

01:32:26 SPEAKER_03
And it feels selfish to say that when indeed you're doing the most maximum good of service by saying, no, I'm not going to do that for you. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. And that goes right into the 100%. And how does that translate into the world of sexuality?

01:32:40 SPEAKER_01
right into the 100%.

01:32:42 SPEAKER_03
And how does that translate into the world of sexuality? Right. Boundaries are important.

01:32:48 SPEAKER_04
are important.

01:32:49 SPEAKER_03
Yes. Yeah.

01:32:51 SPEAKER_04
Oh, 100%. That is so fascinating. And, you know, and I think that I love that I can, you know, and I guess I'm kind of an open person. If someone says that to me, I can be like, oh, wait, you know, what did I, you know, I don't want to assume that service is negative, but my experience has been that often it is. So like, I need to re, I need to like reframe that instead of it being colored by what I've done, but yet it's still colored by what I've done. So I don't know. What is the answer to just think about it? Like open, being open and being like, okay, wait, why am I feeling this? Is this a normal thing?

01:33:36 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. What's normal anyways?

01:33:36 SPEAKER_04
What's normal anyways? I hate the word normal. I think normal is just a stupid word anyways.

01:33:38 SPEAKER_03
I think normal

01:33:41 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. A median of what's healthy out there and find that picture. And then honestly, I think sometimes it's easier just to find something that isn't where you're at and kind of strive for that. Yeah.

01:33:51 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. Yeah. That helps you build a boundary.

01:33:52 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. That helps you build a boundary. Yeah. Yeah. Find something that's attractive out there and just kind of like, I want to live like that. How do you do what you do? And then just ask questions and then try to, you know,

01:34:03 SPEAKER_00
ask questions

01:34:05 SPEAKER_03
know, live like Romans do as they say or whatever.

01:34:10 SPEAKER_04
Is that what they say? Yeah.

01:34:13 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. But I don't, I don't know. I mean, it really is acknowledging that, you know, I don't know. I had a lot of codependent behaviors, so I acknowledge them when I see them. And it's hard to kind of undo that and kind of correct those behaviors, especially when you want to be nice, when you want to be of service, and it's genuine.

01:34:36 SPEAKER_03
Fortunately, that shit can go bad sometimes. I don't know. I don't know how you reframe that. And your particular situation is obviously rooted in the relationship, right? that caused that behavior to kind of manifest. And it's like, I don't know what's there. Right. Only you do. And I, I, I'm a person who like in, in all realms, whether, whether it's spiritual,

01:35:05 SPEAKER_03
it's spiritual, emotional, whatever, what have you, it's like, if something scares the shit out of me and, or makes me react a certain way, I kind of explore it because.

01:35:17 SPEAKER_03
one thing that i i mean there's boundaries here too right but like i don't want to die a coward right i don't i don't want to be on my bed and say oh thank god i always avoided that thing that made me feel like shit right like step step up to your fucking bullies man and like like those situations that like scare you that aren't in the realm of stupidity at least um yeah and and just kind of like explore live life you know

01:35:25 SPEAKER_00
my bed and

01:35:32 SPEAKER_03
step step up to your fucking bullies man and like like those situations that like scare you that aren't in the realm of stupidity at least um yeah and and just kind of like

01:35:35 SPEAKER_00
like those

01:35:44 SPEAKER_03
explore live life you know

01:35:46 SPEAKER_04
Oh yeah. But you know, our experiences kind of lead us to that. Like I had this entire realm of being of like literally petrified to turn 45 because that's when my mom died.

01:36:05 SPEAKER_04
Right. Like, and I was like, I'm not done.

01:36:05 SPEAKER_00
Like, and I

01:36:09 SPEAKER_04
I'm not done. I don't want to die at 45. So like for me, it was this big giant thing. to surpass 45 because she died at 45 and like what didn't she get to do and like do I want to be that no you know like that's a hard thing to to be but you know for me in my in my 40s was when my sexuality exploded when I was like recognizing myself when I was like

01:36:28 SPEAKER_04
a hard thing to to be but you know for me in my in my 40s was when my sexuality exploded when I was like recognizing myself when I was like okay, I can have pleasure. I don't have to be X, Y, Z. I can be for myself. I can have pleasure. And when we talk about these things, you know, to me, I think it's fascinating to talk with you because you've had such a different experience than I have. No, no, 100 % not. Because you've had such a different experience than I have. So I, but I'm one of those kinds of people that I want to know your experience and I'm not going to like.

01:36:56 SPEAKER_00
a different experience than I have.

01:37:04 SPEAKER_04
I'm one of those kinds of people that I want to know your experience and I'm not going to like. be pissed at you because you had something I didn't have. I just want to understand you. And I think that's the difference between people who are angry at the sexes and people who are just like, I want to understand you because I want us to like mesh, right? Like, you know, and I obviously I'm older than you. So we've had different experiences in our culture, but I still want to understand you. And I still think.

01:37:31 SPEAKER_00
still want

01:37:35 SPEAKER_04
I'm interested in that, right? Like I'm interested in, in, in how your sexuality developed versus mine, but I'm not going to like shun you. And I think that's the difference in the not yucking your yum.

01:37:47 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. And I think there's also this other part where it's like,

01:37:50 SPEAKER_01
like as a person, maybe like there's also responsibility for somebody to like,

01:37:57 SPEAKER_03
also responsibility for somebody to like, there's like room to have a conversation and then there's like room to also just like not give a fuck because it's outside of you right like it's something outside of your control right and and there's a lot of people in the world who kind of just go around fucking being really upset and just kind of like kicking dirt kind of like being angry at fucking everything and like everything's a problem and like yeah and they like and usually those people don't actually contribute or do anything productive anyways and when right and so i think

01:38:06 SPEAKER_00
outside of your

01:38:07 SPEAKER_03
and there's a lot of people in the world who kind of just go around fucking being really upset and just kind of like kicking dirt kind of like being angry at fucking everything and like everything's a problem and like yeah

01:38:13 SPEAKER_00
dirt kind

01:38:16 SPEAKER_00
a problem and like yeah and they like and

01:38:18 SPEAKER_03
and they like and usually those people don't actually contribute or do anything productive anyways and when right and so i think to your point it's like one thing i appreciate about having conversations with you is that you know what we just experienced a moment ago so you're not a coward you're not afraid to kind of explore it like oh shit that was a thing what was that and oh that's different why what like and you you sit at the table and you're willing to have the conversation and a lot of people are not and it it's beyond me why that is such a rare

01:38:48 SPEAKER_03
sit at the table and you're willing to have the conversation and a lot of people are not and it it's beyond me why that is such a rare thing now and i think that's probably a lot to do with why i i value conversation and put an emphasis on intellect and stimulating conversation just generally speaking or ideas and stuff right because they're right they're they're they're not a cheap orgasm right they're not it's not it's not i don't go to pornhub and grab that i have to i have to work for that

01:39:15 SPEAKER_01
not a cheap orgasm right they're not it's not it's

01:39:18 SPEAKER_03
they're not it's not it's not i don't go to pornhub and grab that i have to i have to work for that Right. And I have to spend some time with somebody and it's not, I'm not just going to get a cheap hand job under the table. Right. Right.

01:39:35 SPEAKER_03
It costs me something and I have to give something up for it also.

01:39:41 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. So there's that.

01:39:46 SPEAKER_01
So interesting. And you know, and it,

01:39:49 SPEAKER_04
I think it's interesting that. You find it intriguing to have more.

01:39:58 SPEAKER_04
have more. Like, I feel like that's, my fear is that there aren't a lot of people that want that. And then I hope that's not the case. Like I,

01:40:10 SPEAKER_04
my hope is that people find people interesting and people find each other sexy. And there's a reason for that. You know, like there's more to it than just, The fucking sex machine, you know, like not that there's anything wrong with that. Again, we'll say there's nothing wrong with using a sex toy to get off. There's nothing wrong with.

01:40:32 SPEAKER_03
No, there's not 100%. Right.

01:40:35 SPEAKER_04
But there's also something more. And to cheapen it to just being only about that thing. You know what? I think I just we just need this. We need this vast experience and we need to not shame each other for having this vast experience, whether it's alone. Or with your partner.

01:40:52 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. And the reason I kind of lead from that perspective usually is because it's like the idea of what if the thing I love is taken from me,

01:40:56 SPEAKER_01
usually is because it's

01:41:02 SPEAKER_01
the idea of what

01:41:05 SPEAKER_03
if the thing I love is taken from me, right? And it was. It was, right? It was for you.

01:41:10 SPEAKER_00
for you. Yes. And then does the world stop and does my life stop?

01:41:12 SPEAKER_03
And then does the world stop and does my life stop? Right. Right.

01:41:18 SPEAKER_03
If this thing is taken from me, I will never find happiness ever again. That's not true.

01:41:23 SPEAKER_04
No, it's not.

01:41:24 SPEAKER_03
not. Not only did I find happiness again, I found a new appreciation for a different kind of happiness that I didn't know was possible, nor would I have ever found if that which I loved was not taken from me. And it's hard because if I was a parent, it's like, what if it was your child? And it's like, then that's the situation and it's outside of my control, right? So if something happened to you where... Hey, sorry. I almost don't even want to say this. I'm not wishing this on you. Hey, you can't have orgasms anymore. You have some random thing and it's like, now what? Right? Right. Now something that is so embedded in where your identity is so embedded in is no more. Now what?

01:42:10 SPEAKER_03
more. Now what? Are you still you? And to me, the answer is yes. It's just now you're forced to find a new version or a version of you that you didn't know, not a new version of you, a version of you that you didn't know existed. Right.

01:42:18 SPEAKER_01
just now

01:42:18 SPEAKER_00
you're forced

01:42:28 SPEAKER_03
Right.

01:42:28 SPEAKER_04
And I think this is really a valid, interesting, like because people approach or people are gifted, presented with opportunities at different points in their life. Okay. Yes. So for instance. young men are presented with masturbation and climax in their teens. Right. I was not afforded that. I was not allowed that. Right. But I'm fucking taking it now. So for me, I feel very immature in my sexuality. Right. Like I feel like I am doing something that perhaps a lot of male humans did when they were teens.

01:43:02 SPEAKER_02
I feel like

01:43:07 SPEAKER_04
did when they were teens. Yeah.

01:43:10 SPEAKER_00
Have you ever said that to anyone before?

01:43:10 SPEAKER_04
Have you ever said that to anyone before? Um, that's a good question. I don't know, but I really feel like that. Like, I feel like this is my time to do what, what they did back then. And I'm going to shame them and be angry that they got to do it back then a little bit, maybe, but I'm kind of past that. And I'm kind of like,

01:43:29 SPEAKER_03
of past

01:43:31 SPEAKER_04
okay, no, I'm just owning it for myself. Okay. So maybe I'm hypersexual.

01:43:37 SPEAKER_03
Fine. I picked up on it, but like, I don't, you know what I mean? Like,

01:43:42 SPEAKER_04
to do that and finally it's okay for me to do that in my life this is my time to do that and anybody who shames me fuck you because i never got the chance to do it until now right yeah and i mean it's like one of those things though like it it's kind of like no one's business until you put it out there and if you put it out there then i mean it is what it is and also i don't give a fuck what they say so this is the beauty this is the beauty of being a woman in midlife i don't give a fuck

01:43:56 SPEAKER_03
and i mean it's like one of those things though like it it's kind of like no one's business until you put it out there and if you put it out there then i mean it is what it is and also i don't give a

01:44:01 SPEAKER_04
i mean it is what it is and also i don't give a fuck what they say so this is the beauty this

01:44:04 SPEAKER_03
say so this is the beauty this

01:44:07 SPEAKER_04
is the beauty of being a woman in midlife i don't give a fuck

01:44:11 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, because I mean, now you're in the realm of like, well, I'm going to do this and you're going to judge you for it. And I'm going to put it out there and you're going to judge you for it. And I'm still going to do it.

01:44:19 SPEAKER_00
And so I'm not going to give a fuck.

01:44:19 SPEAKER_03
so I'm not going to give a fuck. Right. Right. And it's a it's a very like punk rock approach to the way that you're kind of. Yeah. Right. And yeah.

01:44:27 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. Right. And yeah. Yeah. I like that. Right.

01:44:31 SPEAKER_03
Right.

01:44:34 SPEAKER_03
No, I mean, it's it's valid point. Right. But like, you know, somebody like me, I didn't. I mean, that stuff was like,

01:44:42 SPEAKER_03
like the whole masturbating thing was like around. Right. But like, I was also like, like I knew there was a thing, but it, there was like this shame of like getting caught and more, more so not even just getting caught. Like it was like, particularly like you, what are you doing? Right. Like, what are you doing?

01:45:06 SPEAKER_04
doing?

01:45:07 SPEAKER_03
And it's like, Oh, and there's like,

01:45:09 SPEAKER_04
you shouldn't be doing that kind of a thing.

01:45:11 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. But then, you know, to the, to the other side of that, it's like, I had a buddy who, I don't know why, but like everyone, all of our friends used to, we were older at this point, right? We're adults, but like he had, maybe he was on purpose. He had this terrible habit of like masturbating at the wrong time. Um, and like people will always walk in on him and he had a, he had a very fascinating approach because,

01:45:31 SPEAKER_04
had a, he

01:45:32 SPEAKER_03
had a, he had a very fascinating approach because, uh, he would make you feel like you did something wrong. What are you doing? Get the fuck out of here. Like you invaded his space?

01:45:41 SPEAKER_04
out of here. Like you invaded his space? Yeah.

01:45:43 SPEAKER_03
And like, it was, it was always, it's always awkward when you kind of, you know, find yourself in a situation like that. But like,

01:45:51 SPEAKER_03
this is going to sound really funny, but I appreciate his approach because, you know, as somebody who grew up like, oh shit, I'm going to get caught. Like, or doing something shameful.

01:46:02 SPEAKER_04
doing something

01:46:04 SPEAKER_03
Seeing that was kind of like, Good job, bro. Good for you. Yes.

01:46:07 SPEAKER_04
Yes. You took your fucking time. You took your pleasure. You owned it.

01:46:12 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. Yeah. I'm busy. Defended it. Yeah. Yeah.

01:46:13 SPEAKER_04
Defended it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:46:15 SPEAKER_03
It's pretty funny. Yeah.

01:46:17 SPEAKER_04
Oh, I totally identify with that because that's where I am now. But this is the first time in my life I've been to that place.

01:46:17 SPEAKER_03
I totally

01:46:26 SPEAKER_03
Right. Yeah. And I mean, I know that there's a lot of like from a dude's perspective, there's a lot of dudes who kind of just go through the normal. Or fuck, I don't even know. Like I, we could be totally wrong with this. Right. Like, like the idea that there's these generalizations and these stereotypes out there and it's, it's completely wrong. Like we can't,

01:46:40 SPEAKER_04
completely wrong. Like we can't, we can't assume everybody's opinion or situation or experience, but in generalizing, we can generalize because there is, there is generalizing.

01:46:53 SPEAKER_03
Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I didn't have a traditional like, you know, quote. dude journey as far as like emergence into sexuality i didn't get laid until i was 18 right i i was like you know i was i wasn't looking at at chicks like most of my other friends were looking at chicks until i was an adult like right right it was weird to kind of objectify women in that sense and and do that all that nonsense right um and it it was there was a particular type of shame that came with it and

01:47:07 SPEAKER_00
like you

01:47:08 SPEAKER_03
know i was i wasn't looking at at chicks like most of my other friends were looking at chicks until i was an adult like right right it was weird to kind of objectify women in that sense and and do that all that nonsense right um and it it was there was a particular type of shame that came with it and That was, you know, because of my upbringing, my weird ass upbringing. And it wasn't that somebody like, or maybe I don't remember, but like, I don't remember anybody saying you don't do that. It was just like that. Oh, you don't, you don't stare at titties or like, you don't, you don't, you don't, you don't talk about sex. You don't like none of this stuff. And I think when I, when I kind of emerged out of that as an adult, there was never a really gnarly backlash of.

01:47:57 SPEAKER_01
really gnarly backlash of.

01:48:02 SPEAKER_01
you know well now i can so fuck you guys it just kind of i don't know i was distracted by something else i think and it could have happened i don't know i have no idea i could be fucking listening to like andrew tate and trying to get a bugatti and like you know fuck a million women and you know but thank god that wasn't my story but unfortunately that's a story for a lot of fucking lost ass dudes which is why stag happened right um and i love that you you started it because

01:48:05 SPEAKER_03
i can so fuck you guys it just kind of i don't know i was distracted by something else i think and it could have happened i don't know i have no idea i could be fucking listening to like andrew tate and trying to get a bugatti and like you know fuck a million women and you know but thank god that wasn't my story but unfortunately that's a story for a lot of fucking lost ass dudes which is why stag happened right um

01:48:27 SPEAKER_04
stag happened right um and i love that you you started it because your perspective is important. I just feel like it's just, you know, yeah, I think like people are just, I don't know, they need another perspective. And yeah,

01:48:46 SPEAKER_04
I don't, I don't, I hate that, that there's a divide between men and women, you know, like, I feel like, does there really have to be?

01:48:56 SPEAKER_03
No, there doesn't. But I also think that there is,

01:48:58 SPEAKER_01
also think that there is,

01:49:06 SPEAKER_01
I think that there needs to be a difference.

01:49:09 SPEAKER_03
There is a difference. I agree with that.

01:49:09 SPEAKER_01
is a difference.

01:49:11 SPEAKER_04
with that. If there wasn't a chasm in the Grand Canyon,

01:49:12 SPEAKER_03
there wasn't a chasm in the Grand Canyon, would it be the Grand Canyon? Right. No,

01:49:18 SPEAKER_04
No, and there is a difference. I do think there is a difference. I definitely will acknowledge it. The thing that I think that needs to be stressed is that there just needs to be respect.

01:49:30 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and I think that those bigger questions are... their individual journeys and and i it really is i'm gonna find this fucking book i swear to god i gotta find it because i i gotta plug this thing every every now and then because it's so good and it was absolutely and and i bet you anything it was like one line that said stop being a fucking retard and you know whatever sorry i don't know if i'm supposed to say that or not i understand yep

01:49:45 SPEAKER_03
gotta find it because i i gotta plug this thing every every now and then because it's so good and it was absolutely and

01:49:51 SPEAKER_00
was absolutely and and i

01:49:52 SPEAKER_03
and i bet you anything it was like one line that said stop being a fucking retard and you know whatever sorry i don't know if i'm supposed to say that or not i

01:49:57 SPEAKER_04
sorry i don't know if i'm supposed to say that or not i understand yep

01:50:03 SPEAKER_03
I'm on the spectrum. I think I'm clear. And it was like one of those things where it's just like reading the right thing at the right time, right? And it's like,

01:50:13 SPEAKER_03
I think ultimately those bigger questions are like, what does it mean to be happy? Or what does it mean to be respected? What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be in a respected, loving relationship? What does it mean to be? And a relationship where you feel useful, where you feel like you belong or you feel engaged or even in the bedroom stuff, right? Like in sexuality, what does it mean? All those questions I think are really very much an individual journey and that there's this broad guidelines of if you don't know,

01:50:45 SPEAKER_00
what does it mean?

01:50:52 SPEAKER_03
you don't know, maybe navigate this way. But if you're adventurous, just don't get lost. Right. And, and I don't think anybody has the answer. And I think anybody who is truly navigating their journey and in life with something higher than themselves, with some bigger goal, that is their guiding star that isn't made of like nonsense and is truly aligned towards that, which is good. Then I think that they won't get it perfect, but they'll be better off than most people. Yeah.

01:51:30 SPEAKER_03
100%. I mean, I don't have the answers for sure. Like I don't, and I make mistakes all the fucking time.

01:51:37 SPEAKER_01
Oh, I do too.

01:51:39 SPEAKER_03
Yeah. But I mean, I think that I try to, I try to find myself in less and more,

01:51:44 SPEAKER_03
try to find myself in less and more, more places where I feel respected and feel like a contributor and it feels meaningful and purposeful than, than not. Right. And in places that I'm not welcomed for. legitimate reasons or even illegitimate reasons right and i don't feel like i'm sitting at the table in good faith with people and agents and players and whatever who aren't also operating good faith so i just fucking find another table i don't complicate it anymore yeah yeah right like if you're gonna be an adult and you're gonna be especially with dudes like if you're gonna be an alpha stop asking for fucking permission man and just live your life and like people with respect man like that's it

01:52:15 SPEAKER_00
anymore yeah yeah right

01:52:16 SPEAKER_03
like if you're gonna be an adult and you're gonna be especially with dudes like if you're gonna be an alpha stop asking for fucking permission man and just live your life and like people with respect man like that's it Right. And and just be of service to something greater than yourself and like not in a toxic situation. Not that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like doing good for others and honoring yourself and that which is good. And that's it. It doesn't have to be complicated.

01:52:46 SPEAKER_04
You're always welcome at my table. I'm totally interested in your perspective and what you have to say. But I do want to ask you one question. This is something you asked me at the end of our discussion.

01:52:54 SPEAKER_03
is something

01:52:55 SPEAKER_04
the end of our discussion. Oh.

01:53:00 SPEAKER_03
Top or bottom?

01:53:02 SPEAKER_04
Do you like women?

01:53:04 SPEAKER_03
Do I like women?

01:53:08 SPEAKER_03
Did I ask you this?

01:53:10 SPEAKER_04
You asked me if I liked men and what I liked about men.

01:53:13 SPEAKER_03
what I liked about men. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I do like women. I think, honestly, we didn't get into it too much, but my whole life revolved around women.

01:53:19 SPEAKER_04
think,

01:53:23 SPEAKER_03
whole life revolved around women. It was all women. And that led to a lot of problems between me and men. But it also, I think, made me a stronger man than being guided by the lost men that I was around. Because the women didn't have it all together, but they worked as a team. So they were better off than the fucking nonsense the guys were perpetuating. Right. But that also came with, you know, I had to stop. I had to learn to stop being codependent because a lot of the women that I grew up with were very codependent. Right. And a lot of the men I grew up with were very addiction oriented or alcoholism oriented.

01:54:04 SPEAKER_01
of the men I grew

01:54:08 SPEAKER_03
oriented or alcoholism oriented. Right. Yeah. And so I was stuck in this, this world of, you know, you know, kind of choose your poison.

01:54:11 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. And so

01:54:21 SPEAKER_03
And instead of. hiding from both of those realities i kind of leaned into them learned the hard way and then learned it to unfuck myself um that's but i i yeah i do like women and i think that there's a lot to especially as a male um and i don't think that this male

01:54:39 SPEAKER_01
um and i don't think that this

01:54:49 SPEAKER_03
female game is really necessary.

01:54:52 SPEAKER_00
Right, right.

01:54:53 SPEAKER_03
I mean, we're just people,

01:54:54 SPEAKER_01
just people, man. Like, fuck.

01:54:56 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.

01:54:58 SPEAKER_01
Yeah. I agree.

01:54:58 SPEAKER_04
I agree.

01:55:00 SPEAKER_04
That's very fascinating. You know, I've had so much fun talking with you. I seriously feel like it's been like five minutes. I know we talked for like several hours.

01:55:08 SPEAKER_02
hours. Yeah, yeah.

01:55:10 SPEAKER_04
It's been about two hours,

01:55:11 SPEAKER_02
about two hours, yeah.

01:55:12 SPEAKER_04
Right, like, I know we need to end, but I seriously feel like it was like super short. I had a blast and... I love hearing your perspectives. I will never, you know what? Even all the negative experiences I've had, I've still loved all of the experiences. Okay, my computer is saying I'm running out of energy, so we better end before I lose this. It wouldn't though, right? It would go to Zoom.

01:55:35 SPEAKER_03
I have no idea.

01:55:36 SPEAKER_04
Okay, I don't want to accidentally.

01:55:37 SPEAKER_03
to accidentally.

01:55:39 SPEAKER_04
No, I'm like terrified of that. I'm like, shit. Okay, I just got the notification that my energy saver is on.

01:55:46 SPEAKER_02
Oh, yeah. That's time.

01:55:48 SPEAKER_03
time.

01:55:48 SPEAKER_04
Do you want to say anything else? Tell people where to find your podcast and that kind of stuff.

01:55:50 SPEAKER_03
kind of stuff. You can find us at stagpod .com or just search Stag, S -T -A -G, podcast on wherever you get your podcasts. Spotify usually is probably the best place to find us. Yeah, that's it, man. Just be a good person. Just keep your side of the street clean and try not to be... If you're not going to be a good person, at least the bar should be, do not be a shitty one. That's it. Try not to be a shitty one. That's it. That's all I got for you.

01:56:19 SPEAKER_04
I got for you. Thank you so much.

01:56:20 SPEAKER_03
you so much. I appreciate you.

01:56:20 SPEAKER_04
much. I appreciate you. Oh, I appreciate you. And I had an absolute blast talking with you. I think I could keep talking to you for like hours. Anytime. We can do it again.

01:56:27 SPEAKER_03
We can do it again.

01:56:29 SPEAKER_04
Let's do it again for sure. So everyone check down in the podcast show notes to check out Stag Podcast. And we had a great time. I hope you enjoyed it as well.

01:56:40 SPEAKER_03
Always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

01:56:42 SPEAKER_04
Thank you so much. You have a great night.

01:56:45 SPEAKER_01
Have a good night. Okay. Bye -bye. Bye.