Have you ever wondered what it takes to become a guest on a radio talk show? Have you ever been tasked with placing a guest on radio? How do you go about doing it? And beyond that, what is the true value to you and your organization to be on radio? Hello again, and welcome to Speaking of Media.
0:00:22
The podcast where communicators and the media come together to consider the world of mass storytelling. I'm Keith Marnoch, former journalist turned corporate communicator, and I'm hoping that you, as a communicator, or perhaps someone who speaks on behalf of your organization, will join me for each episode to learn from industry experts on both sides of the media microphone about the most effective ways to share your positive stories and messages, and also, perhaps more importantly, how to avoid getting caught in a negative media storm. Throughout I will be drawing on my professional communication experiences that have spanned more than 30 years. On this episode we speak to Lisa Brant. She is someone who has been on the radio airwaves, in both smaller and larger media markets.
0:01:08
She's also the author of Make the media Want you an insider's guide to creating persuasive pitches. Lisa shares with the Speaking of media audience some great stories about the realities of producing radio over the years and throws in some insider tips that all communicators should consider when it comes to telling their story over the air rather than simply online. OK, so it's my great pleasure to welcome to the Speaking of Media podcast.
2 - 0:01:42
Lisa Brandt. Lisa, a self described veteran broadcaster. You've been in the trenches and on the front lines for a long time. DJ Newscaster, journalist, Reporter, voice artist, author. You really done it all and you've had an amazing career and it's really great to welcome to the show. Thank you. Good to be here, Keith here on the Speaking of Media podcast.
0:02:06
We do try to give people a better sense of how to connect with and get the most out of connecting with the media in terms of reaching a public audience. Maybe you could just give people that just a little snippet of your early career and maybe the biggest changes you've seen overtime throughout through their career that you've
4 - 0:02:28
had. Well, it's you know, I started without wanting to be a journalist and but I got my first job as a DJ as you say. And I ended up doing that for a long time, but I also got to do a lot of interviews and that's where I really found my fun. Ann. My Ann. My meat in my job.
0:02:43
You know, you can say you can intro song six ways to Sunday, but it's just not the same as meeting somebody who's done something cool or wants to talk about something interesting, or a celebrity. I mean, I can. I got excited about celebrities too. Sometimes depending on who they work, but with the changes I've seen. Have a lot of course to do with technology.
0:03:06
When I started out we were cutting tape with razor blades in grease pencil's. And I've always been the one in the room when they say software is changing or something. I'm the one that goes yay when everybody else like, Oh no, no, I don't want to do this. I just I just grabbed ahold of everything new and love digital editing and the other thing, of course, is the shrinking sound bite. You know, we used to have long form interviews and there used to be a lot of room for that kind of thing.
0:03:32
In fact, the RTC. When it came to broadcasting, demanded it, we have to have hours and hours of what was called foreground programming, original programming and that usually meant interviews. And you know that got caught and I work with Brian Linehan years ago to know if you know the name, but you probably do. He was the guy who would do the five minute question and you know, I saw his ERA come to an end. I was working with him when he was shortly before he was let go because he would not do sound bites.
0:04:04
And Brian was just an amazing man. I loved him dearly. It was a good pal, but you know he didn't evolve with the times and that's something that you have to do. So yeah, the sound bite, which is everybody now knows exactly what that is. But when you were from the era I came from, you know, shortly after The Big Bang.
0:04:30
It was a totally different way of working. You don't let people go on and on and on or your listen for that one little tiny phrase ago. That's what I'm going to use,
3 - 0:04:43
you know. So Speaking of you being an author, so you do have a book out there and will give people an opportunity to find a way to get to it. Make the media want you so that really outlines a lot about what we're trying to talk about with our audience here on this podcast and trying to get a sense of you know how to make that relationship between the media person and the person who's trying to connect with them.
2 - 0:05:04
A little bit easier to understand and hopefully come up with ways to make that relationship a little bit stronger a little bit more valuable. I always point to with my audience storytelling and using that as a basis for trying to,
3 - 0:05:19
you know, make whatever message it is that you're trying to deliver work harder.
4 - 0:05:25
Is that something that you're thinking about on the other side of the microphone? Absolutely because anyone can spew out facts. Or, you know, statistics or whatever, but that's just. You know it's not compelling. It doesn't connect with people. It might inform, might inform them, but if they're not interested in it, it's just blather. But storytelling is the basis of all of our communication.
0:05:45
Don't you find? I mean, when you're sitting across from somebody at dinner and you're telling them something that happened last week, you're thinking of how am I going to make this person? Even if you're not doing it consciously? How am I going to not make this person's eyes glaze over? You want them to be interested?
0:06:02
You want them to be to react to what you're saying, and that's all in the way you frame it the way you tell your story, so I think. That's the most important thing right there.
2 - 0:06:13
Absolutely, when I'm talking about messages with people, I'm always trying to impress upon them as well,
3 - 0:06:19
even in the shortest of interactions like you're talking about that you have a beginning, a middle and an end. Whether it's 30 seconds or 30 minutes. And again, how are you managing that from an interviewer's point of view? If you're finding that they're not quite getting that, is there a way for the interviewer to, you know, on the fly,
4 - 0:06:38
make it work? You knowing how much time in what context you got what you're trying to deliver as a product? Well, that comes down to prep really, because ever since my very first celebrity interview when I ran out of questions, I was very young and very naive. I have over prepped to an amazing degree and I find that I would rather throw out half of what I've got or more than half of what I got then then be left unprepared. So that's where over preparing comes in. And if you know your subject inside now, which. Uhm? Is more difficult to find these days in media because of all the pressure and all the work that media people are expected to do.
0:07:14
But you can lead the person you can feed them things that they you know that prompt them to get where you want them to go, especially if somebody is a little bit unsure of themselves and or where they're going. They're a little more easily LED sometimes in their grateful for it. You know I've had some very nervous interviewees who are quite great. People that I fed them stuff because I've known about their book or about their project or research or whatever and giving them a place to go. And you're a nice person so you would do that.
3 - 0:07:56
But the goal there really is that you need to have a decent enough product to present or offer. You know whether it's live or taped. You're looking for an outcome obviously, and that people need to understand that it's a two way St in terms of what people are trying to get.
4 - 0:08:11
You know what both sides of it or trying to get out of it. Well, it's being a nice person, but it's also wanting to make a great product. You know, I'm aware that if I I'm on say I'm on radio with somebody and their faltering, it doesn't do anybody any good, including my personal karma to let them continue to flounder. So it's always kind of been my philosophy to that were both there for the same purpose. I know that other people in media have a more adverse aerial roll and it also matters who I'm talking to. I'm talking to a politician who's just.
0:08:45
You know, created some sort of scandal. I'm not going to give you the big warm hug, but generally I think of us as being, you know there for the competent, common goal. I don't like to work too hard to feed somebody their own material, but I have done it. So when you're talking about sort of celebrities versus politicians,
3 - 0:09:10
I often have to breakdown when I'm talking to people about the difference between proactive from the interviewees POV. Proactive as you're as if you're trying to promote something, perhaps a celebrity or someone who's got a book or something that wants to be pushed versus a reactive. The interview is being, you know, critiqued as being pushed, and so on. Let's talk a little bit about the you know person under fire. Who needs to be on your on your Airways and knows that they're bringing you know a message of. You know. Perhaps defense or explanation.
0:09:44
Can you talk a little bit about that? Or think of a time when you had sort of, you know, a big news story? Or someone who's in the public eye? And being criticized that that you've had to kind of really think through or decide how you're going to go about approaching a sort of a delicate or a controversial
4 - 0:10:05
topic. Yeah, and there is a great example of that with a Toronto newscaster. That's an example I've used. I won't use his name, but he had somebody come in and he hit. He hit this politician right out of the gate with the very first question thinking he was being hard hitting the very first question that everybody wanted him to work up to and the guy just got up and walked out. So there is a finesse to it where, you know, that may not necessarily if you're in a scrum. And you're a journalist. You're throwing a microphone in their face.
0:10:35
That's one thing. If you're sitting down on a couch in a television studio and talking to them, it's quite a different one. You you'll get there. The reactive. Somebody, the subject of a scandal somebody doesn't want to be.
0:10:52
There is really more. The onus is on you as the interviewer to pull that out of them. The celebrity is if you know anything about their album or whatever it is that they're doing. I mean, that's what they're there for. They can talk about themselves for 15 minutes if you just go, you go and you know, walk away, file your nails, do whatever else so they're two completely different animals.
0:11:17
In their own way, I'm sure if we're talking to people and we kind of are in this in this space who support or prepare people to go on the
3 - 0:11:33
air with you, preparation is going to very simple sense. It must be obvious to you early on whether someone is prepared an whether or not someone is savvy in terms of the way that they answer questions. Have you ever been outsmarted or, you know, have been sort of like situations where? You been surprised mid interview about what's going down and can sort of see what someone's trying to use you for. Or usually, or a format for.
4 - 0:12:02
Yeah, and when I was doing a talk show, I just shut them down. But you know, as far as somebody being prepared. That reflects back usually in my opinion, to the media person who is there, you know. Working with them, their communications person or whatever I hold that against them. More than I do, the subject usually take again depending on who they are.
0:12:27
Politicians don't get much of a pass, but if they don't know, you know what it is. They're there to talk about. I guess I've got all these people swirling in my head right now. I remember a cookbook author coming on, and I'd ask her question. She go.
0:12:48
That was the interview and I went to commercial a couple times and tried to tell her off the ledge and it was quite clear this woman couldn't put a sentence together. She just saw a microphone and was scared. You know, and then there I've had some. You know I've had run the gamut. I've had jerks I've had.
0:13:06
I've had people create fake fights I've had. You just name it, but when it comes to preparation again, generally I would hold that against their communications person, not against them. Well, you know one thing,
2 - 0:13:21
if you were able to talk to someone generically that you know you would say to someone who's trying to be that go between for you.
3 - 0:13:28
Someone who's trying to either find somebody for you or connect somebody that you want to get.
4 - 0:13:33
What's the biggest? What's the biggest plus someone like that can bring to the equation? Confidence. Does the person I'm talking to confidences in in themselves and what they've got and in the person that they're being interviewed by the you know, there's a telltale sign among people who are either not confident or not ready, and that is they project all of their worries onto the interviewer. They act as if they're about to their lamb going to slaughter, and they keep reminding you everything that you should be doing instead of being concerned about themselves. That is a telltale sign of someone who is not ready, and as soon as I get somebody in the studio and they start saying, well, are you going to do this, and are you going to do that? And what about this? And what do they start telling me how to do my job?
0:14:22
I just go OK. This person is no clue what they're doing.
2 - 0:14:29
They have no confidence in me in my job and they are not ready and should not be here. And would you say that you know success in a radio format at least really can be measured when you get to a point where you're getting both sides are
3 - 0:14:43
getting good value, but you really are having let's call it a strategic conversation like it feels like to the audience that there's a conversation is that should that be
4 - 0:14:53
the goal of people. I yes, absolutely. It's the conversation an informed conversation and strategic as it's going somewhere. It's not just you know, out of the blue, but they're saying enough to prompt questions off the page, so to speak. They they're interesting. They have energy.
0:15:14
There's you know they have to have a passion for what they're talking about, or at least an interest in it, or knowledge about it. To keep that two way conversation flowing. If it's, you know, if they don't like their, that's obvious to everyone. So I don't know is an OK answer. Yeah, I would rather hear.
0:15:40
I don't know unless it's the main subject to what you're there talk about. I would rather hear I don't know. I'll find that out or something. Then somebody trying to be us through it too and I think that's important because we're all human. Nobody knows everything. We make mistakes and who knows what somebody is going to come out of left field with.
0:15:55
It might be something arbitrary and ridiculous. But instead of saying that you can just say you know what I don't know.
2 - 0:16:09
I think that's an important one. Are you affected by the way that the interaction goes before hand to set something up? I'm thinking about people who are trying to do shortcuts or feel the need to like in your book you talk about in your book, make the media want you. Talk about bribing people, and so I like things that just kind of really make people stick out in a way that is awkward from the start and you know it. It eventually affects the interview itself.
4 - 0:16:36
Yeah, or if it even happens, if the interview even happens, you know. Journalists are like elephants. We never forget and you know, there was a very famous author, Canadian author who's now Gone. But he then his company, his publisher, booked an interview with me and he. Ghost and he didn't show up and because he was so well known I thought OK and I was live on air and you know, and I have to figure out what to do with that and because of what he was so famous, I thought cable give him a second chance.
0:17:13
He did it again and after that I just decided you know this isn't going to happen. We're going to be going to be doing things differently I thought because he was so famous, but he thought because he was so famous that he didn't have to lower himself to do radio interviews. This I did not know. So, you know, we never forget. We never forget if we've been misled or stood up,
Anyways, you've worked in big markets and small markets, but you always have to fill the time. You always have to fill the space. How do you balance? You know the need for content against deciding. Who it is that you kind of go after I'm speaking?
0:18:10
I'm asking a question because, you know, there might be people out there don't have a communications Department or there might not be someone who's got a publicist or whatever. Sometimes you know small businesses I think of in during the pandemic. Who have actually a story to tell you know, a new way of doing business or something that might have an interesting human-interest type of angle on something? Open to those and you know I'm speaking generically, and are those stories that you feel you can make use out of, even if you're literally talking to celebrities or politicians on a regular basis.
4 - 0:18:50
I think so, because an especially you know during a time like this, which is you know everyone says unprecedented, but I can think of many different times when a story was ongoing and 9:11, or, you know, just some big ongoing story in you. Always, always, always looking for some different ways, some new angles, some fresh approach, something that people are doing to cope it. Right now, everything seems so negative. If there's a glimmer of positivity somewhere that can be useful. Balancing the act between getting content and deciding you know, deciding what goes on. It's always been difficult.
0:19:30
You know, I can't think of a time when I've ever said. I just have to fill these 5 minutes. Let's just throw this piece of crap on or talk to this person who's got nothing to say but we need to fill time never. I don't. I can't think of a time and I've done that so there still has to be quality and value there.
0:19:49
But I do think. Here's a little like example, a small business that I know of. They are. What do they do? They moved or something. Anyway, they're very small and they moved and thought that was a story, and that's not a story, but if they had a story, I would have been willing.
0:20:13
Definitely willing to. Entertain that, I mean if they moved and they saved heritage building and they blah blah blah, you know there we've got something. But there was nothing to it. So those value judgments are still on the stories. But yeah, nothing is off limits and nothing is guaranteed on limits.
0:20:32
Really, it's all. It's all about in radios about the listener and newspapers. It's about the reader and then TV is about the viewer.
2 - 0:20:44
I mean they all come first, talk about newsworthiness in this. In this discussion, group that we've got basically online here. And yeah, it's always fascinating to get different people's perspective on that. So, what is the very tangible approach for someone who either is in a sort of a good size organization? Or maybe not? You know, something smaller. They think they've got a story.
0:21:04
Generically speaking, in a newsroom setting or in a radio or TV set up, what would work? What would someone could someone actually do? Or how could they go about bringing a story forward for consideration?
4 - 0:21:23
Well, it always depends on, you know. It depends on you. It depends on the market. I always tell people to use any connection they have. If you have a cousin who's married to somebody who works at the TV station, make that phone call. Because it may be an unfair advantage, but that's your advantage. And I say go for it and ask them.
0:21:41
At the same time, that doesn't mean corner them at every family gathering, and you know, let's just like the poor Doctor Who's in your family. And I got this mole, you know, but use that sometimes phone call to that assignment desk. Sometimes a media release. If you have an idea of what you're doing there, you know it. It's it varies depending on the size of the story who you're approaching.
2 - 0:22:16
Yeah, some people take a DM on Twitter and it ends up in a story you know is we talk about in this space A lot around trying to reflect greater themes or larger stories that can be talked about at the local level or in a more of a microcosm in a more personal way is that sort of a, you know, is that an ongoing good way to, you know, make an entree into something?
4 - 0:22:40
I think so. I think it is. You know, I routinely would take phone calls after the show. Emails. I prefer emails personally. Emails from people with ideas. You know there, there's always the person who's sending me something every two days who I start to know is crying Wolf, but every once in a while.
0:23:01
So this is the whole idea of behind what we were doing when I was doing radio was, we want to talk to people we want to talk to people who are doing interesting things. We want to talk to people from our community. We want to talk to people that people know and other people will listen to. You know, it becomes a lot of sort of being in a batting cage and hitting balls back sometimes but that that contact one on one is very valuable and you can find out pretty quickly if there's anything too. To what you have to say by the reaction you get.
2 - 0:23:42
So someone starting from Ground Zero they don't know you there in the community. They send you an email. What would be? What would be the characteristic of an email that would catch your eye that you would act on versus ones that probably aren't going to go very far with you? Well, the ones that.
4 - 0:24:02
Basically, say I owe them something because I'm on the radio and I have to do something. I don't get a lot of attention, but somebody who just sends a don't says Anan maybe has bothered to look up. What the show is, you know. Like for example, Ken Eastwood an eye on CJBK and they you know. Hi Lisa, maybe you and Ken would be interested in this. Here's what we're doing. Again, it's succinct. Don't give me your life story and don't bore us.
0:24:30
Get to the chorus so tell me why this is going to be a value to my listeners. One of the things that I would like people to know whether that whether they're working at the Free Press, whether they're working at CTV, whatever, everybody is doing 5 jobs. Everybody is coming into a mountain of emails or trying to get through. Everybody is. Too busy to stop for lunch and it's that way in media relations.
0:24:59
It's that way everywhere. So just you know, whatever the perception might be. If somebody who sounds relaxed or looks relaxed on the air or whatever know that they're running around with like a chicken with their head cut off. Up until that red light goes on. So, think about their time and treating it as valuable and you'll get that back.
2 - 0:25:22
And that really works. Whether you're in Wingham or Toronto, correct? Like it's just it's across the board. Absolutely, absolutely. And yeah, it's just you know people would be surprised when they would be a guest on our show.
4 - 0:25:38
CJB K as an example, and Ken or I would go and let them in like. Well, where's your letter in is? Well, you know what we're skeleton staff. Now this is how it works in media and you know I also had the joy of working at 680 news in Toronto for 10 years. Where when I started there, we had our own chef who made us breakfast every morning to order.
0:25:59
So you know that it's different in different places but most of the most of the cases are, you know, we do a lot of our own stuff. We don't have somebody handing us questions. Or skimming the book and you know, giving us the highlights, we do all that ourselves.
2 - 0:26:24
So I think a lot of people have this great vision of, you know it being almost untouchable or hard to get through. But what I like to talk to people about is that if you're bringing quality and you're talking to the right people, are you finding out who you need to be talking to most directly? But you can have success in terms of trying to make the connection and again, whether you're big or small, that probably holds true so.
4 - 0:26:49
No, you know, take a second on the website on CTV for example, and find out you know who's two. Who takes news tips or how do you go about it? I'll just you know, call up and ask to speak to Julie Atchison because you want a picture. A story. It doesn't work that way and things get lost and things get misplaced.
0:27:03
And you want to make sure that you're doing the same with the newspaper. Whatever else, take a second and look into it. Don't not just because you know you happen to read Joe Balaji that you think he wants to know about. Something related to his beat. It takes a little bit of work and it makes you look like you're serious and you're you've taken the time to figure it out, so most of its right out there for the taking,
2 - 0:27:33
right? We talk a lot about you know again, so it's great to hear preparation on both sides or hard, you know, no substitute for hard work. That sort of an approach is really great and then trying to build that connection with you. Sometimes debate around whether or not you acknowledge a person's name. You trying to make a connection on that? How do you feel about that?
0:27:55
What's your point now? What's your take on somebody who would use your name? Say you know well, he said blah blah blah, is that something that you warm up to? Is that something that makes a difference in an interview to you to show that they are actually present in the interview? Or do you feel like it's better, you know, from a interviewees POV, to kind of keep it distant.
4 - 0:28:20
I find it personally to be a little bit cloying and manipulative. That's my take on it. I know I worked with a guy who he used to cut up his interviews and replay them and smaller bits and he always kept everything that where the person said his name, because it made him feel big and important. I don't think I'm the point. I'm a facilitator of the story I'm helping to get it out. The story isn't about me, so I kind of feel that it's a little bit too much.
0:28:51
You know, if it happens, it happens, but if it happens repeatedly, it makes me uncomfortable. Yeah,
2 - 0:29:02
so again, you having authored make the media want you. But what's been the reaction of make the media want you? And has it been, you know? Taken up by people who are in the biz or what's not positive, it's a couple years old. I think. Now how you use that or how do you leverage that book?
4 - 0:29:24
Well, it's been. It's been really good. I've actually. I've been asked to speak a lot of places that I can't go. Which is fine, but what I've found the people who have embraced it the most are independent artists who can't afford a person to gloat and flog the media for them. And they're trying to figure out how to get a little bit of attention. For the record, their book, or whatever. That's been a really big part of any success.
0:29:50
This book has had an I didn't anticipate that, but it makes perfect sense. It makes absolute sense. It's just not something that I would have thought of as far as colleagues go. They like it because it's cathartic. You know there are a couple little stories in there about.
0:30:10
You know people called like one woman calling up and saying I want to be on your show. I'm like great do you want to have a show about? Well, I don't know. You figure that out. OK, that's not my job,
2 - 0:30:25
so it's been cathartic for them and I've gotten good reactions so, well, you know I appreciate all the content of that particular book, and you know, I pushed it too when I have an opportunity to. Make a reference to you know places where people can look to get sort of a. Again, I think that there's a lot of talented people out there. I think there's a lot of people who can do a good job, but there really is a bit of continues to be sort of a bit of a mystery as to how you make it happen and how you actually engage with media and so will make this book obvious to our listeners and find a place for them to be able to do that. And yeah, but hey Lisa, it's been great talking to you and I really appreciate you taking the time. And I appreciate the value that you bring to these kinds of topics, and you know, thinking about you know how to how to make media work and I appreciate also your you being one of those people who have been added a long time and have sort of seen a number of different.
0:31:22
You know, evolutions of how, how media works and someone who embraces the new and trying to keep things moving forward. It's great. You've been the host of my life's soundtrack. Whether it's been, you know, sitting on the beach in in Bruce County or lose in Toronto, you've always been a voice at the other end. And it's a real thrill to have worked with you more directly on some projects in Southwestern Ontario.
0:31:47
And people should be aware of their, not if they've only sort of seen you in one of your iterations. You know how devoted you are to this craft, and again, I really appreciate you taking the time today to speak with me.
4 - 0:32:07
I really enjoy the key. Thank you so much and thanks for mentioning the book.
1 - 0:32:10
I'd appreciate it. And so, some great takeaways from Lisa, the importance of storytelling. A recurring theme, certainly here on this podcast, and actually having a story to tell. This needs to be uppermost in a communicator's mind and their process making sure that you or the person that you're supporting is well prepared for a radio interview. Getting on mainstream media is not beyond your ability by any stretch of the imagination. However, you do need to know the types of outlets that will let you reach your intended audience most directly.
0:32:36
And you do need to have your act together both to pitch and secure the interview opportunity, as well as knowing your messages and how you will tell your story while being interviewed. You then need to know who produces the radio show that you're pursuing more and more. It is the host of the show, but not always. Learn how their production is put together and determine the right person to connect with to make your pitch. If you can relate your specific story to a larger theme in the current news cycle, well, that's even better. If not, make sure you are demonstrating your stories newsworthiness and whether you are communicating via email over the phone or more broadly through a media release.
0:33:13
Understand how busy producers can be respect their time and make the value of your story easily evident to them, right from the very start we will be speaking to more broadcasters on future episodes. If you have a favorite, let us know who it is and we'll see if we can maybe get them on the podcast Lisa Branch book. Making the media want you. Is available through links that we're providing in our episode notes. And so, as promised through the eyes, an experience of experts on both sides of the media microphone, this time with Lisa Brandt, I hope you've learned some new ways to effectively Share your story and message while this episode was focused on selling your story proactively.
0:33:56
In future episodes, we will be speaking about the ways to avoid getting caught in a reactive negative media storm. For now, thanks for connecting with Speaking of media. We're now available on all podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts. Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher and TuneIn Radio also, you can ask Alexa or your Google Echo device for Speaking of Media by name. Please consider joining our Speaking of media communicators discussion group on Facebook.
0:34:29
You'll also find us on Instagram, LinkedIn, and on Twitter at Media speaking. I'm Keith Marnoch. Through other episodes. I look forward to our next time together when we will be Speaking of media.