EP116: Cartography & Collective Dreaming as Resistance

In this episode of the Dream World Podcast, I sit down with dream worker, storyteller, and researcher Andrusa Lawson for a deep conversation on dream recall, shadow work, lucid dreaming, collective consciousness, and the sacred nature of the dream space. We reflect on the importance of finding spaces where dreamwork, vulnerability, and collective exploration can exist safely and authentically. Andrusa speaks on the challenges of doing deeply personal and transformative work in a world shaped by survival, inequality, distraction, and systems that often overlook or silence marginalized voices. Rather than rushing to expand dream technologies or communities, he emphasizes the need for environments rooted in trust, care, inclusion, and genuine human connection — spaces where people can engage with the dreaming without fear of judgment, exploitation, or having their experiences dismissed.

Andrusa shares his experiences growing up in a family that actively shared dreams, how dreams became a tool for navigating trauma and connection, and why he believes dreaming may be one of the most accessible gateways into self-awareness and healing. We explore his concept of “dream cartography” — mapping recurring dreamscapes and navigating the dream world through lucidity, symbolism, and intention.

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Transcript

Anrusa: A number of people that feel that they have low dream recall or have low dream recall assume that they don't dream because they can't recall.

Amina: So welcome to the Dream World podcast. I'm excited to have you. Today I'm joined by Andrew Psilocin. He's a dream worker, storyteller, creative. A lot of his work is focused on dream sharing and how traditions revolving dreams can help people whose voices voices have been silenced. So I went to one of your workshops in the conference in the Netherlands, and then I saw your presentation when it was online on Dream Cartography.

00;00;46;02 - 00;01;12;20
Unknown
I really enjoyed that one. And I want to talk, you know, about all these topics and all the things you do, but I want to hear it from you first, like what's your story? And like, how did you get interested in dreams? Okay. My my soaring. So I wouldn't say that there's a, there's kind of like a, a real kind of linear line of events that led to an interest in dreams.

00;01;12;22 - 00;01;44;14
Unknown
When people ask me and my family about our relationship to dreams, we always just kind of recount that. We come from a family of dreamers. We've had shared experiences between the five of us and between my parents, and there's a long history of what some might call synchronicities or coincidence, but of shared space and archetypes and things of that nature showing up in our dream space.

00;01;44;14 - 00;02;05;21
Unknown
And as we were growing, growing up in the inner city Washington, D.C., in Baltimore, a lot of the tools that we use to kind of cope with the different complex traumas of being people of color, you know, in the inner city, were related to dreams. Obviously we had some of the things that we were doing as well.

00;02;05;21 - 00;02;30;21
Unknown
But the idea was that, you know, in the beginning of the day, it was very common for us that we had shared dreaming experiences for us to come together and, and to kind of cross-reference and share with each other. And it seemed to allow us to build a more complete understanding and picture of what each of us may have been getting fragments of individually.

00;02;30;22 - 00;03;05;13
Unknown
So when I got connected with IAsd by the Powers That Be, I've kind of leave it at that. When I got connected up to IASD, the International Association for the Study of Dreams, one of the things that really kind of stood out, or at least that people that I've kind of connected with were telling me was that, you know, the level of lucidity, the frequency of dreams, you know, born from kind of the hypervigilance of growing up the way that we grew up.

00;03;05;13 - 00;03;41;11
Unknown
And my high level dream recall is, is not actually common. You know, I had you know, we didn't have the context. It was, you know, it's just always been part of our family, part of our culture. So just the idea that, you know, that, you know, we we were at least presenting in a way that seemed to draw some attention and seem to have some value to other dream workers who had been, you know, working in the field in various capacities.

00;03;41;13 - 00;04;06;19
Unknown
You know, things started to click. I don't know if that's exactly what you're asking for, but that's what it is. Yeah, I'm just asking for, you know, whatever's on your heart and whatever, you know comes to mind when the question pops up. It's really cool that you are so connected with your family in the dream realm. I think there, you know, I wish there was more studies on, you know, dream, recall or lucidity and, you know, genetic predisposition.

00;04;06;21 - 00;04;26;27
Unknown
I'm also the one in my family to kind of encourage everybody to listen to their dreams. So that's really cool that you guys had that as a tool and a way to connect. So how like what is your main like work around now? Do you have any projects or. I know you wrote a couple of books. Like what's your passion within within this field.

00;04;26;29 - 00;05;12;06
Unknown
So I so I'm, I haven't written any books yet. Well, actually, that's a lie. I've written books. I just haven't shown them to anybody to yet. So. So, yeah. So I guess if I were to kind of sum up where my real kind of passion and focus is, it's around dream recall, lucidity, particularly shadow work, you know, integrating those fragmented parts of, you know, our day, our emotion, our psyche in such a way where we experience some level of catharsis, and then we're able to take that energy that we were dissociating and put it back into our lives in a way that allows us to be productive.

00;05;12;07 - 00;05;54;28
Unknown
So I'm really interested in shadow work in that way. And. I would say that right now, primarily, my primary focus is on what I gave my presentation on that, that dream cartography. I have a number of projects and research projects that are surrounding this entire program that I've, that I have laid out with, you know, the development of that application, you know, being just one tier in a multi-step kind of pathway to, you know, to do, to do give my my bit of contribution to the dream work community.

00;05;54;28 - 00;06;07;29
Unknown
So, you know, I'm interested in dreams as, as a means of accessibility. And what I mean by that is that.

00;06;08;02 - 00;06;50;09
Unknown
People and from different social, economic backgrounds, a lot of times lack access to some of the different disciplines that might allow them to feel as though they're kind of expanding themselves as individuals, really kind of caught up in our basic needs of survival. And, you know, a lot of those, these practices that may be seen as, you know, expansive or, you know, to help people with their awareness of, to grow, there really is a barrier to entry when you can't afford your groceries and you don't know if you can keep your lights on this, you know, there's no way you're going to make it to the bet and, you know, sit with a dream

00;06;50;09 - 00;07;23;07
Unknown
yoga dream Yogi. So the the idea is that, Even though there are other avenues into this extra sensory experience, this, this direct connection with these more subtle dimensions of our reality, a lot of times they get sensationalized. It's associated with things like psychedelics and things like that. But I but dreaming is something that we all do.

00;07;23;10 - 00;07;50;22
Unknown
We all have access to it. You know, we're we're all kind of innately gifted and blessed in that way. And we have just been kind of moved in such a way where we do it through our lives and we lose access to this, this really kind of connective, this connective tissue, because it's something that all of us have in common, not just with ourselves or with animals and things like that.

00;07;50;22 - 00;08;32;09
Unknown
So I'm interested in what it would take to map the collective unconscious. I believe that, or even the subconscious, to to take kind of a snapshot of what that will look like. And I believe that dreaming is the most versatile, potentially appropriate and accessible tool. And accessibility is just really big for me because, you know, in order to get a more complete picture of of who we are as human beings, the data has to be more representative of, you know, a diverse set of demographics.

00;08;32;11 - 00;08;56;14
Unknown
And, you know, empirically, just just as the data is now, that's not the case. It's about the case. Yeah, very much so. I've noticed that as well. You know, I think it's so important to bring more diverse, not just voices, you know, to the conversation, but in the data, you know, in the research. So like you were mentioning, you know, a lot of people live in survival mode.

00;08;56;14 - 00;09;18;12
Unknown
Maybe they have a lack of sleep or, you know, they don't even a lot of times remember dreams. You know, it starts with the recall. If you have trauma or you're stressed or you don't have time to focus on dreams, you may not even know that you dream at all. So what are some ways that people can connect to that part on themselves and join the conversation and, you know, study that part of themselves.

00;09;18;13 - 00;09;55;25
Unknown
You know, do the shadow work, you know, in a balanced way, in a way that supports them instead of just adds more stress. Yeah, I would say the first thing to do is just kind of we have to get back to that place of like childlike curiosity. You know, we have to suspend that disbelief. Like just the just the statement you made where which I think is absolutely true, where people, a number of people that feel that they have low dream recall or have low dream recall assume that they don't dream because they can't recall.

00;09;55;27 - 00;10;30;12
Unknown
And and when we, when we hold that as truth, you know, that that belief, then what happens is we, we kind of lock ourselves down and we create less opportunities for recall. So, there's a there's there's some, I guess, exercises or just like thought exercises that I usually do what people that are curious about dream work and maybe just getting into it and or have the issue of not having very high dream recall.

00;10;30;12 - 00;11;12;23
Unknown
And, and part of it is just to have them start to write in journal, you know, writing and journaling is really central to a lot of awareness practices. But I have to write in journal, as though that as though they, they've had they've had the dream. Right. Just accepting even if the only thing that they put down on the paper each morning is accepting that, that they know that they have had a dream, you know, just from a mechanical, mechanical perspective, you know, just as human beings, you sleep, you dream, you go through those cycles, you know, and so doing some physical practice that reinforces that even though they're not remembering what it is,

00;11;12;25 - 00;11;41;21
Unknown
that they're changing that belief of if I'm not sure if I can't remember what it is, it must not be happening. It's happening. I just can't remember. And generally, you know, if people kind of move through just that thought exercise with consistency, I usually kind of get the call or the email that says, I remembered one the best feeling, I love that.

00;11;41;24 - 00;12;15;11
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I think it's great. And I, I believe that this innate intelligence and the dreaming, and that when we put ourselves in a position where we actively show that we're reengaging with, with the dream, because really it's a relationship that we've neglected. And when you're reestablishing trust, you know, with that part of yourself and potentially with information that that is maybe non-local or very, very subtle.

00;12;15;14 - 00;12;34;22
Unknown
Sometimes we have to we have to extend the olive branch first. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I also agree with you. I think everybody has these abilities. It's just it's not always easy to tap into that part of ourselves. But once you get the ball rolling, you know, you open up that relationship with our dreaming mind.

00;12;34;24 - 00;13;14;25
Unknown
And how do you think that like doing this type of work on an individual level, like how does that ripple out into society, you know, is everything going on in the world and just in general, you know, humanity? Do you think it's more beneficial and it has that effect? Well, I would say, okay. So I guess we're getting into an area where I have a bit of tension right now because I understand the the idea and the principle that on an individual level, if we're doing our work, there's this residual effect that kind of spreads via association.

00;13;14;27 - 00;13;49;00
Unknown
But there's this part of me that wonders about whether or not, just doing that individual work is enough, whether or not there is a need for us to really take ourselves, take this practice, this passion that we all have surrounding dream work and say, okay, it's time for us to start. Start thinking about dreaming. Collectively. It's it's time to start thinking about how all of these things weep together in such a way where we have a larger impact.

00;13;49;01 - 00;14;09;02
Unknown
There is just like dream work and shadow work and and mindfulness practices there, like contemplative, right? Like we are like it's a it's a lot of stopping thinking, feeling through it. Right. And the speed at which.

00;14;09;05 - 00;14;40;14
Unknown
Other volatile vectors of thought and emotion, expand in our world today. I'm not sure if it's enough to simply take it slow and do it for yourself anymore. Yeah, you know, that's a good point. And I ask myself these things all the time, which is why I bring it up. So what does collective dreaming mean? Like, to you?

00;14;40;18 - 00;15;38;21
Unknown
I think that it's important for me to establish that. I guess my relationship with the dreaming is somewhat uncommon compared to some of the mainstream dream workers. I intentionally, throughout my practice, have have worked to kind of blur the line between my, my dreaming and my waking experience. And so when I consider some of the impacts of dream work and some of the impacts of adjusting my worldview and perspective to, to to move through this lens of, of almost mystical relation with, with the dreaming.

00;15;38;23 - 00;16;02;28
Unknown
The meaning is not necessarily separate from the actions that we do and where we're awake as well. You know, a lot of dream work in and of itself is done when we're awake. We dream, obviously, when we're sleeping. Depending on your level of lucidity and some of the practices you have, maybe you become engaged and aware in your in your dreaming.

00;16;02;28 - 00;16;58;19
Unknown
But dream work happens when you're awake. The journaling, the recall, the meaning making, and all of those things. A lot of that happens when we're awake. So, when I think about dreaming collectively and what that means to me, it is indicative of of us living collectively. And I think that when a very difficult space with that right now with our current political climate and, you know, you know, the global climate, so to speak, with moving towards living collectively and thinking and feeling and acting collectively, I think that we're, a bit more fractured than maybe we we were a few years ago.

00;16;58;22 - 00;17;27;15
Unknown
Yeah. Thank you for that. Definitely. You know, it's it's tough when not the whole world's not on the same page, you know. So I wanted to kind of segue that into your cartography work, mapping your own dream world. It was funny because right around that time that I saw your presentation, there was also some like mainstream trends online about people talking about their different dreamscapes and what it looks like for them, and a lot of similarities, you know, online about that.

00;17;27;15 - 00;18;07;23
Unknown
So what was that process like for you? How did you begin to notice what types of environment show up in your dreams, and do you feel like it's something that other people relate to? I guess the first thing would be that what I found so far is that, a number of people that I've engaged with in, in, you know, this kind of dream work niche in the dream work community, actually are a little less concerned about location and more concerned with narrative with, with, you know, symbolism and characters and interpretation.

00;18;07;25 - 00;18;43;05
Unknown
I became very. Very interested, were concerned with location when my, my dreaming practice really kind of expanded for me. And, you know, just with the level of lucidity that I have and, you know, multiple I, you know, recall at least 2 to 3 dreams a night. I would say at least at least 3 to 4 times a week on an active dream.

00;18;43;05 - 00;19;37;11
Unknown
I'm, you know, I understand that I'm dreaming. I come lose it. And I got into and I, you know, I have been studying Peruvian shamanism and Tibetan dream yoga, and I started to recognize some patterns and some associations that by virtue of becoming lucid, becoming aware and remaining calm enough not to pop the dream bubble, not to get too so excited, I wake myself up, that when I was when I was in certain dreamscapes or dream spaces and engaging with certain narratives, that the way that I chose to respond to those narratives would often lead to a set of events that will lead me to another, another dreamscape.

00;19;37;11 - 00;20;16;11
Unknown
And when I realize that, for me, that jump between this dreamscape a or dreamscape be based on my decisions and this is an oversimplification with something replicable for me. Right? So here I am in my dream. Let me come into my awareness. Here is this inflection point. And if I behave in this certain way. Here's the next space that I generally move to in this narrative.

00;20;16;13 - 00;20;20;13
Unknown
What came to mind was.

00;20;20;16 - 00;20;45;03
Unknown
What what is the feasibility of navigating from dreamscape to dreamscape? If I'm in a space where I'm aware and where I have an understanding of what I will encounter, or that expectation of what I could encounter in those spaces, which in its own way, kind of cements the symbolism in the space. Right? Kind of collapse collapses that quantum waveform.

00;20;45;05 - 00;21;21;00
Unknown
It's it's less potential and it's and it becomes more structured. But maybe that that's the cost of being able to, to move from one node or one space in the dream to another in search of experiences that I'm seeking. So in, in a lot of our dreams, or I know we've all had had these experiences where we have certain dreams, where we had visitation from ancestors, or we feel catharsis and rejuvenated afterwards.

00;21;21;03 - 00;21;53;28
Unknown
Or, you know, maybe we encounter something that we feel is is dark and something that we need to move through. My my assumption, my thesis was or my hypothesis was what if I really needed need a night of catharsis, and I know where I am in this tapestry of associations between dream spaces, and I can navigate to the space where I'm most likely to have a cathartic experience, I'm most likely to shapeshift into an animal.

00;21;53;28 - 00;22;21;12
Unknown
I am most likely to have a visitation from, you know, an ancestor or some type of compassionate embodiment that that I can positive question to. And wouldn't that have an innate value to it? That's really cool. So do you have any specific ways that you change the dreamscape? If you're trying to navigate to a different section of that elaborate tapestry?

00;22;21;15 - 00;22;54;22
Unknown
Okay. So the idea of ways that I would change the dreamscape, I think, kind of implies a level of control that I am, I am less of an advocate for in dream work and a lot of and a lot of kind of the, the, the training of different Dreamworks that I've encountered. There seems to be this push towards, you know, how do I become more in control?

00;22;54;23 - 00;23;29;17
Unknown
How do I do the thing that I want to do? You know, I want to fly in a dream, I want to I want to do A, B, and C, and I have encountered the dreaming as a cooperative experience, a dialog and interaction between and, and intelligent presence. And so I don't say avoid trying. I avoid changing, changing the dream or trying to actively incite change.

00;23;29;20 - 00;24;17;12
Unknown
I would say that it's, it's more, it's more about while being in a conscious space and a receptive space, behaving or making choices or directing my perception in a way that aligns my energy with a specific outcome. And then allowing the dream to take me somewhere close. Right. So I would say to that, because of the amorphous nature of dreaming, you know, even though the space and the locations that that I moved between maybe recognizable, it's always fresh and it's always new.

00;24;17;13 - 00;24;23;26
Unknown
Right. And I feel that.

00;24;23;28 - 00;24;47;16
Unknown
Of forcing or expecting a change sometimes limits the possibility and the richness of the experience. Yeah, definitely. I love that perspective. So would you say you're more of like an observer and kind of just go with the flow of the dream versus, you know, having that lucid control? I would say that there are there are spaces and places for lucid control.

00;24;47;18 - 00;25;23;25
Unknown
I, I have had and understand that I can have the ability when, when I am moving through this navigation process in a lucid way, to completely rearrange, dismantle or construct within the space of the dream. But it feels very rude because because I'm, we're having a conversation and I don't, you know, I don't want to step on anybody's toes.

00;25;23;25 - 00;25;57;16
Unknown
I'm speaking about the dream right now. I want to step on anybody's toes, and I don't want to speak over you. And if you are making a point and, you're using the language that is most appropriate to you, you know, who am I to correct those words if I understand that meaning? That being said, there are some spaces in some places where sometimes the desired outcome in the dream or that sought after experience is the ability to craft, dismantle, disrupt.

00;25;57;16 - 00;26;25;08
Unknown
And there are specific scapes that that I recognize as places where that type of dismantling is appropriate. I love that that's a deep respect for the dream space that I really appreciate as well. So I think, I think that's a really good lesson for people. Do you have any like, specific things you like to use your lucid dreams for, or certain things that you kind of plan for during the waking state?

00;26;25;08 - 00;26;54;22
Unknown
So I guess I would answer that question by biopsies, highlighting some of the sought after experiences that I sometimes try to navigate to my dreams. So one one thing that is really, really big for me, and I know that a lot, and that's an assumption, but I feel like a lot of people would think, you know, maybe like ancestral visitation and things like that.

00;26;54;22 - 00;27;20;02
Unknown
But for me, it's actually shapeshifting. That is the most rich experience for me. The I think that there's a, there's I think it's a Buddhist proverb, and maybe I might be misspeak, but it's just the idea that, there's value to to taking a look at the world from the peak of the Malcolm, even if you can't stay there for long.

00;27;20;03 - 00;27;52;11
Unknown
Right. Because it's cold and it's frigid and you can't breathe or whatever the situation is. The point is that by virtue of understanding, you know, by getting up above, you know, the tree canopy and being at that peak position to understand that there's more than what you see in, in your, in your daily life, it enriches you, you know, it allows you to, to, to maybe allow yourself to dream about more than, than where you are right now.

00;27;52;11 - 00;28;35;25
Unknown
And the richest experience of that is the experience of taking the shape of another, another animal. Just because, when I have dreams, when I shapeshift and to a bear, when I'm a bear or I'm an eel or I'm a snake, I can't be a human if I'm going to be a snake and there's there's merit just to slithering on my belly and smelling with my tongue, just by virtue of really letting go of all of my assumptions of how, you know, I would perceive and engage with this world and, and a human form where I'm bipedal.

00;28;35;28 - 00;29;22;27
Unknown
I when I, when I come back from the, from those dreaming experiences, I feel a deep like a very, a very deep empathy. It's usually, it's usually also very cathartic. You know, sometimes it brings me to tears. And I mean, like any and every experience outside of this human form, I think that human beings innately are kind of shapeshifters at least, you know, spiritually and mentally, like, where I feel like it would wouldn't be too far of a jump to say that we are creatures that dream about being something different.

00;29;22;28 - 00;29;47;24
Unknown
We dream about different jobs or different spaces or different places or different people. And, you know, I'm not sure if, if if a deer ever dreams about being a bear, I'm not going to put it past them. But I know that there's there's something in us, the richness and a curiosity for contemplating those experiences. And what better vehicle.

00;29;47;24 - 00;30;11;20
Unknown
And this is that whole idea of accessibility. What better vehicle to explore those questions in those sensations then in the dreaming, where you know all of your senses can be engaged? So yeah, that's usually what I'm looking for in dream. I don't know if that was the right question, but that's the right answer, I think. Definitely, yeah. There's no wrong answers here.

00;30;11;21 - 00;30;32;26
Unknown
That's really cool. I love animals in general and connecting to, you know, the different essences of of all the things on earth, you know, that that co-create this space we live on. So that's really cool. So what about in contrast to cool, powerful lucid dreams? What about like, mundane day to day dreams? How do you connect with those?

00;30;32;27 - 00;31;08;01
Unknown
You know? Because like you said, a lot of people aren't super powerful, lucid dreamers like that. Okay, well, I would so take us a step back again. So I guess this this goes back to my purview when when it comes to how I engage with my dreaming. I was asked a similar question in an interview last year. I was asked to share prior to the interview a number of like or, you know, a very powerful or substantial dream that we could talk about.

00;31;08;01 - 00;31;47;06
Unknown
And I think my response they I think they published it and, and one of the dream journals or whatever, but it was just like, I don't make that distinction, you know, like, like every, every experience, every dream experience, anything that you recall, if it's a if it's if it's just a light, a color, a sensation, you know, it is just as potent and powerful and, and meaningful as, you know, constructing a universe.

00;31;47;08 - 00;32;28;28
Unknown
And I believe that really the, the draw to kind of make the distinction or to look for these moments of, of kind of sensational experience is, is part of that kind of Euro western valuation of, of, of life like something something has to be, you know, big or powerful or bright or beautiful or super, super dark. Whatever it is, it has to be more in order to, in order to have value.

00;32;28;28 - 00;33;04;04
Unknown
But, you know, I, I have I understand that there is meaning in the dreaming in every dream before I go and start to assign my labels to it and try to interpret it, interpret it, it has value before I try to wrap my monkey brain around it. So, I guess I'm not sure. Again, I'm not sure if that answers the question, but but just that idea of like, you know, nothings mundane.

00;33;04;06 - 00;33;49;05
Unknown
Nothing's mundane for me, I love that. Yes. That's so true. You know, I think all our dreams are important to and deserve, you know, the same level of respect and, you know, all. So I kind of take a similar perspective. I would love to hear the dream you mentioned. Or, you know, if you want to share whatever dream comes to mind that was an important or a standout one for you, I guess a relatively a relatively unimportant dream was revisiting this this dreamscape where the world is, is kind of covered in, in turbulent dark waters.

00;33;49;07 - 00;34;19;19
Unknown
And there was a tower. There was a tower in the stream, and I was climbing into the into the tower from the water and realizing that the space that I was climbing was actually like the tallest room in the tower. But but I didn't understand that the rest of it was under the water because, whatever that whatever the storm is in this in, in this particular dreamscape is just something primal, something old.

00;34;19;19 - 00;34;52;14
Unknown
And I went into this space, I shared this with my with my dream group. I have a I have a regular dream group that I been meeting with for a couple of years now on Thursdays. But I came into the top of this tower and in the water that was actually in the tower, there was a, like a almost like a kraken, you know, tentacles that were obscured and you couldn't really see, you know, its face or whatever it was.

00;34;52;14 - 00;35;17;26
Unknown
And the rest of my brothers and sisters were also climbing into the tower around the same time. And as, like, lightning is striking the tower and the rain is just pelting and and and everything is chaos. And these tentacles are reaching up, trying to grab us and pull us down into the water. And we're hanging on to these ropes and kind of swinging because we're getting buffeted back and forth.

00;35;17;26 - 00;35;40;15
Unknown
We all just start laughing because it's like, oh, it's the first time we've been together in the same place in a in a good long time. And so it was it was just the most terrible, awful experience you would expect. But we were just happy to see each other. A not so important dream that sounds awesome, so vivid, and it sounds very wholesome.

00;35;40;17 - 00;36;05;27
Unknown
I love the balance of like the fear, but the the happiness to to be around people you love. That's interesting how dreams can do that. That's cool. Thank you for sharing that. How does modern culture. Do you think that we lack a healthier relationship with our dreams and waking life and the shadow like, do you feel like generally the world needs more dream work?

00;36;05;28 - 00;36;51;06
Unknown
I guess the world needs more stuff. Yeah. I would say that the modern human generally is uncomfortable with self-analysis or evaluation or sitting still and reflecting. I think that it's easier for us to kind of stay in our lower chakras, so to speak, and, you know, kind of stay in our bodies and in some of those baser impulses, because life is hard and in the world super crazy, and everybody's hungry, and a lot of people don't have homes.

00;36;51;06 - 00;37;23;10
Unknown
So it's it's easier. It maybe, maybe easier is oversimplification. You know, it may even just be necessary at this point right now for us to be the animals that we are, because we're not having those basic needs met. You know, we're in fight or flight or in survival mode, you know, and, you know, again, how can you expect somebody to, to elevate when they're not having any met?

00;37;23;10 - 00;38;04;03
Unknown
I don't think that we have a healthy relationship with the dreaming because we're distracted. And I think that it would be very tone deaf or just short sighted to think or to assume that that distraction is completely of our own making. Right? Like that. We want to be distracted, that, you know, we don't want to expand, that. We don't want to ask questions and and find meaning and relationship with others.

00;38;04;06 - 00;38;41;06
Unknown
I think that whenever this iteration of society and systems is at the moment, it feeds off of our apathy. So and it wounds me deeply to consider that, yeah, I resonate with that as well. And, you know, sometimes I struggle to continue, you know, doing the podcast and like just finding that intermediate, you know. But I do it anyways, you know, even as much as I can.

00;38;41;07 - 00;39;00;28
Unknown
And one of the things that, you know, motivates me to keep going is the importance of just, you know, getting more diverse voices and not just, you know, racial and cultural, but like, geographic all, you know, in every sense of the word into dream work and into the research. So hopefully I'll be able to go down that path.

00;39;00;28 - 00;39;28;01
Unknown
But, what are what are some ways that you think we can, you know, invite, you know, Bipoc community and just in general more people to to not just ized, but to start thinking about dream work? I would say first, I guess let's talk about let's talk about Bipoc. And then and we'll also kind of expand it to just like diverse demographics based on kind of reaching a location and things like that.

00;39;28;01 - 00;39;55;24
Unknown
I don't think that the current dream work landscape is ready, capable or safe for people of, of of color. I really don't, you know, I'm not going to say, believe it or not, but just I, I've encountered, it's not resistance throughout my.

00;39;55;26 - 00;40;54;26
Unknown
My career of trying to engage with the established dream work community. And I think that there's a, a natural and warranted hesitation in communities of color to divulge and to share into spaces that don't feel safe because the nature of the dreaming is sacred. I also believe that in many communities of color the same way I think it is like in many different regions around the world, there's a difficulty with really holding the dream in the regard that it deserves because of all the stress and the anxiety and, not having needs met.

00;40;54;27 - 00;41;36;23
Unknown
Right. So I think, you know, it's not like I wouldn't say that, like there's this larger community of of people of color that are all, like, secretly, like, like, like secretly communing and connecting very strong with their dreams. I think that, like, the way that the system is set up, that everywhere in every space, whether it's mainstream or these marginalized spaces, it is really, really tough to incorporate the type of time care energy ritual that's needed to cultivate the relationship with the dream.

00;41;36;23 - 00;42;17;25
Unknown
And so I think we're we're all just kind of suffering from that. I think that and I hope to kind of show this in some of my work, my research work, and eventually my thesis for, well, I don't I don't want to give away the baby with the bathtub water, whatever the point is. The point is that I think that when it comes to when it comes to research and it comes to gaps in the data based on like culture and race and things like that, a lot of times right now, researchers are in the mind state that f the at the data is not there.

00;42;17;28 - 00;42;46;29
Unknown
Then we need to find out a way to get into these demographics and and collect that data. And what I'm finding is that the withholding of data, the withholding of sharing is a data point in and of itself that needs to be represented, that needs to be represented in tandem with with the data that shows, you know, these are the demographics that are that are sharing, these are their stories.

00;42;46;29 - 00;43;16;19
Unknown
But, you know, we're not actually actively visualizing the the reason for for withholding as a valid data point. We're just leaving it as a gap because we don't have it yet. And I think that it also speaks to, you know, who has kind of like sovereignty or control over the the information, the narrative, the data that is produced and compiled.

00;43;16;21 - 00;43;53;08
Unknown
There's a there's a very well documented history of the work of people of color and other marginalized people being co-opted. And this just not enough concerted energy to try to repair the that that lack of trust. And I think that we have to also consider one of the things that I brought up in my my presentation, a lot of people saw my presentation for ISD last year.

00;43;53;08 - 00;44;18;11
Unknown
And, you know, we're really interested in in the dream mapping part of it. But for me, that was actually not the largest question. The largest question there is, is it appropriate for us to be creating these type of tools, doing this type of dream work, when people are not getting their needs met, when you know, diversity is under siege?

00;44;18;13 - 00;44;53;04
Unknown
Like, you know, the the idea that we are we're still here and, you know, diverting so much of our energy, attention and capital into the dreaming. Not that it doesn't deserve, you know, attention and resources. I worry that that may be a little tone deaf as well. Right? And I don't think a lot of dream workers want to think about that right now.

00;44;53;06 - 00;45;28;00
Unknown
Doing dream work can can feel very rich and rewarding. And wrestling with the idea that, maybe we have to find ways of stepping back from some of the things that we, we think we should build or be doing, because there are other uses of our energy and our time that would also honor the human experience and the collective experience.

00;45;28;02 - 00;45;51;05
Unknown
Like I said before, you know, the dreaming kind of bleeds into my physical waking reality as well. You know, a lot of what we don't integrate during our day, a lot of our experiences, our anxieties, it shows up in our scapes. So sometimes, or a lot of times the dream work happens when we're awake. What are we doing when we are awake?

00;45;51;06 - 00;46;20;16
Unknown
To, to take the edge out of the dreaming, to take the nightmare out of the dreaming. To take the, you know, to take to, to to lower those moments of kind of hurt, pain and loss. And it's not that the dream is not dreaming is not equipped for those type of emotions and sensations, but it's like it's all that we're feeding into our collective psyche right now.

00;46;20;16 - 00;46;48;08
Unknown
So I'm interested in what we can do while we were awake, so that we can kind of take pressure off of the off of that, that dreaming experience. I think that makes sense. So yeah, definitely makes complete sense. I think, you know, we have the Western scientific view on dreams, which a lot of people think is like, you know, the ultimate say.

00;46;48;08 - 00;47;19;26
Unknown
But there's so many perspectives and different ways to look at dreams and work with dreams. And so I think that they're all just as valid. And, you know, I don't encourage people to try to fit into a space or, you know, framework that doesn't feel safe. You know, I think creating communities and, you know, finding ways to work with your dreams and share dreams with with others that does feel safe is important, whatever that looks like, you know, to, to each person.

00;47;19;26 - 00;47;42;26
Unknown
So, yeah, I'm curious also, what your work in terms of like your brand and, and what you do, you know, where can people find you that kind of stuff. And what is that about? Nobody's ever going to find me. Well, yeah, I know your website, so I found. Yeah. Well, yeah. For, for for the moment you did.

00;47;42;28 - 00;48;07;02
Unknown
Okay. I'm going to share another dream with you. Is that okay? Great. I would love that. Yeah, I'll be brief with that. No need. Take your time. So I was with my. I was with my dream group, and I was sharing this dream with them. And so in the dream, in the dreaming, the the land is scarred.

00;48;07;05 - 00;48;54;08
Unknown
The world, as I understand it, is just black and ash and the the trees are just wailing and, there are animals of all types that are coming together. And the smallest of them, the rabbits and the chipmunks and the squirrels, they begin to dig into the ash, into the earth, as the world is set ablaze and everything starts to burn.

00;48;54;10 - 00;49;36;00
Unknown
And the larger animals, they pile over top of the smaller ones as their flesh crackles, and they're shielding them for as long as they can to buy time for them to dig down into earth, towards this one seed, this, this mote of light. And I realized the dreaming spoke to me. And when I used that word loosely, because a lot of times in the dreaming, it's not like a big ominous voice.

00;49;36;00 - 00;49;56;07
Unknown
It's annoying. You understand the context, and there was a choice to be made. Whatever was happening f those animals made it down to that seed. It will burn.

00;49;56;09 - 00;50;18;12
Unknown
And I had to choose whether or not to take this. All. I had to choose whether or not those animals were going to make it down to what they thought was their salvation. And I chose to let the animals burn.

00;50;18;15 - 00;50;47;29
Unknown
And in my heart, I felt that if all we can do is preserve whatever that small mote is, and it has the opportunity at some point to grow out of the ash and the bones that were piled on top of it, then it was worth the sacrifice.

00;50;48;02 - 00;50;53;04
Unknown
So.

00;50;53;06 - 00;51;05;26
Unknown
I, I bring that up, that that particular dream, I bring that up to say that,

00;51;05;28 - 00;51;09;00
Unknown
I.

00;51;09;02 - 00;51;54;07
Unknown
Am not sure at this time in our human experience is the appropriate time for whatever that bit of grace is that is supposed to to bless and spread and expand in this world from the type of dream work that I'm positing. And if I don't get to do this in my time, if I have to pile my body on top of that seed to keep it from burning, then I will fall away into obscurity.

00;51;54;09 - 00;52;06;08
Unknown
I don't. You are. You are my last stop for.

00;52;06;11 - 00;52;40;17
Unknown
Quite some time. Okay, I, I have a number of dream workers or people that have casts and things like that that, have become somewhat familiar with my thoughts, my, my presentations and things like that that have asked for me to, you know, to do what we're doing here. And I feel like the badger in me, needs to go underground for quite some time.

00;52;40;19 - 00;53;15;15
Unknown
I plan on cementing some of the research that I've been doing. You know, I just completed a year long longitudinal study. And I have some other things kind of in the work. And all these things are, are aimed at fleshing out this dreaming app, this dream cartography app, not as a product. Right. Like a lot of dream workers that are considering building apps or like, you know, it's like dream journaling.

00;53;15;15 - 00;53;56;18
Unknown
How do we how do we market it? How do we get it's this is an exploratory tool. It's for meaning making and visual association. And so my goal is to continue some of this work that I'm doing underground for a while, and to really remove myself from the larger dream work community for some time. And then depending on where we are, where the world is, where this community is, is whether or not it'll be time for me to express it or contribute.

00;53;56;20 - 00;54;11;25
Unknown
Yeah. Well, first of all, let me say I appreciate you so much for coming on the podcast. You know, that's an honor to me, just to be able to get to know you and chat and, you know, see what you're up to. I look forward to that research when it does come out or when you're at a place to share.

00;54;11;28 - 00;54;30;07
Unknown
But I guess that brings up one last question that I want to ask you, which is what does that future look like to you? I mean, you can be as positive or as cynical as you're feeling, but what does the appropriate time look like? Where do you see this all heading? So there's this two important things I guess I want to give out here.

00;54;30;09 - 00;55;07;10
Unknown
I think that it's not just for me a matter of time. It's a matter of appropriate space. I honestly don't see myself staying in the US to do this work. I've been, you know, some of the academic circles that I run in and, you know, some of the professors that I'm, you know, speaking to as I'm in school and I'm doing my writing, my publishing and things like that, a lot of, a lot of the academics that I throw myself with are not 100% sure if the United States is the place to be doing the type of work that we're doing.

00;55;07;11 - 00;55;42;27
Unknown
Right. So, you know, for me, maybe the timing is also the place as well. And I need to be in a place physically where I feel that the expression of the work that I plan on doing, is not going to be mislabeled or disappeared. There's a lot. I'm sorry. Just I hate to I don't I'm not going to get super political, I promise.

00;55;42;28 - 00;56;40;06
Unknown
I'm just saying that there's a lot of information that is disappearing there. There's just they're they're literally, literally some things that I've cited in papers that I've written that I can't find a citation anymore because it's been disappeared from, you know, from government, from the governments fights from, you know, and things of that sort. So, I need to be in a place where the work will be, will be insulated and able to exist beyond me, and where it's not necessarily going to be curtailed, by people that don't want to have a discussion about diversity or equity or inclusion or race or gender, I don't know, or any of those things.

00;56;40;08 - 00;57;04;00
Unknown
So. More details to come, I guess. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I would love to stay up to date with your journey. You know, when you do find that space, place, time, people, whatever it is. Because I think it's important and I think people that listen to this episode, you know, think deeply about it, you know, beyond what they do and on a collective level and beyond.

00;57;04;00 - 00;57;25;22
Unknown
So, yeah, thank you for that. I will include all of your links and whatnot in, in the notes, so you don't have to repeat them unless you want to. But any any closing thoughts? Don't give up hope. Just don't give up hope just yet. It's things. Things are good, but they've never been great. Things have never been great.

00;57;25;22 - 00;57;42;13
Unknown
And it's all it's all the work, you know. So let's just do what? Work. Yeah. Agreed. I'm there with you. And I appreciate you just coming on, sharing some of your your energy and your dreams and a little bit about yourself. So yeah, I really appreciate that. And hopefully we can stay in touch.