Have you ever peered into the mind of a coach who shapes Ivy League scholars into golfing masters? Kevin Rhodes, Harvard University's men's head golf coach, joins us for a conversation that's as much about the swing as it is about the strategy behind crafting well-rounded student-athletes. With a heritage steeped in golf and a dual role at the storied Country Club in Brookline, Kevin imparts wisdom that strikes a chord not just with those aiming for the green but anyone seeking balance in life's pursuits.
Amid our candid discussion, we navigate the complexities of collegiate time management, uncovering how Harvard's golfers juggle the demands of academia and athletics with finesse under Kevin's tutelage. Mental fortitude takes center stage as we reveal how leadership, developing a critical yet nurturing coaching voice, and embracing technology can galvanize an athlete's growth. But it's not all about the digital; we also pay homage to the timeless virtues of patience and presence in the quest for personal and professional excellence.
In our final strokes, Kevin and I celebrate the intrinsic joys of the coaching journey, from the revelatory impacts of biohacking on performance to the simple pleasures found in refining a skill or mentoring a willing pupil. Leadership anecdotes and high-performance insights are par for the course as we recognize the Harvard men's team's influence on the golfing world. Tune in, get inspired, and discover the lessons from the fairway that apply far beyond the 18th hole.
Have you ever peered into the mind of a coach who shapes Ivy League scholars into golfing masters? Kevin Rhodes, Harvard University's men's head golf coach, joins us for a conversation that's as much about the swing as it is about the strategy behind crafting well-rounded student-athletes. With a heritage steeped in golf and a dual role at the storied Country Club in Brookline, Kevin imparts wisdom that strikes a chord not just with those aiming for the green but anyone seeking balance in life's pursuits.
Amid our candid discussion, we navigate the complexities of collegiate time management, uncovering how Harvard's golfers juggle the demands of academia and athletics with finesse under Kevin's tutelage. Mental fortitude takes center stage as we reveal how leadership, developing a critical yet nurturing coaching voice, and embracing technology can galvanize an athlete's growth. But it's not all about the digital; we also pay homage to the timeless virtues of patience and presence in the quest for personal and professional excellence.
In our final strokes, Kevin and I celebrate the intrinsic joys of the coaching journey, from the revelatory impacts of biohacking on performance to the simple pleasures found in refining a skill or mentoring a willing pupil. Leadership anecdotes and high-performance insights are par for the course as we recognize the Harvard men's team's influence on the golfing world. Tune in, get inspired, and discover the lessons from the fairway that apply far beyond the 18th hole.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measure Golf Podcast where I, michael Dutro, have fantastic guests on and we talk all things amazing golf performance things that we can possibly come up with in about an hour.
Speaker 1:So this week is really special.
Speaker 1:We took a little time off for the holidays and whatnot and this guy's been traveling a bunch because he's a busy man this time of year because it's college golf season and we're very fortunate to have none other than Kevin Rhodes, the men's head coach from Harvard University or from the Harvard University, and we're very, very excited to have him on because Kevin kind of has a very long track record with the game of golf. Not only is he currently the men's coach, but for a very long time was both the men's and women's coach at Harvard, and not only that, also kind of hangs around a pretty cool place it's got some history and golf lore called the Country Club and Brookline Massachusetts. So Kevin is fortunate enough to be the lead instructor out there as well for that membership and does a fantastic job as well as helping the men and women of Harvard and generally it's just good for the game of golf and has like lots of fun stories. So we thought we'd have him on, so without further ado, kevin, you want to say hello to everybody?
Speaker 2:Michael, thanks very much for having me on. It's a true honor. I met Michael at the 2020 US Open at Brookline and have felt fortunate to keep in touch ever since, so thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just showing Kevin an old picture of us with. He's definitely a mentor and a hero of mine and I would imagine Kevin would probably feel the same. But I was showing him a picture of the three of us at the Country Club and it was Pete Cowan was the third and we were fortunate enough to get to spend some time talking to the man in black himself and I just thought it was really cool man Like he is. Just I don't know how he strikes you but like, when I think of Pete Cowan I think of a pro's problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the best. I mean to have someone that has the knowledge base that he does, the playing ability that he does, to be able to like truly relate to best players in the world and then, to you know, have the teaching passion, skills to be able to like help other people, like become great, you know, completely extraordinary.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I saw Pete at the past year's Open Championship and obviously things were going on, but Henrik Stinson happened to be there hitting balls on the range really late at night and he wasn't playing in the field. But I guess when you're Henrik Stinson they let you do that kind of stuff, right? So Henrik Stinson's at the range at the open late I think it was either Friday or Saturday night and all of a sudden Henrik's young son pulls a golf club out of Henrik's big staff bag and like starts hitting golf balls too. And I thought it was the wildest thing I've ever seen in my life. Kevin. Like I'm like what is going on here? Like this is at a major championship, right, but, dude, nobody does anything about it, nobody says it's awesome, it's the coolest thing ever. They're just letting the sun hit the ball together. It's like a thing of beauty.
Speaker 1:And Pete's down there with Thomas working with him and kind of wraps up with Thomas and Pete walks over and starts talking to him a little bit and the next thing, you know, pete walks over to the kid and I thought, oh man, pete's going to like give him the runoff and be like hey, kid, you can't be doing this right now and this isn't the time and place. He didn't do anything like that. He like spent 20 minutes working with the kid, showed him a couple of things. The kid noticeably hit the ball a little bit better, like it was amazing. And it's like that, in my mind, is like what it's all about. Right, like you know, the title, the ego, the mystique of Pete Cowan and that moment met nothing and all he wanted to do was help somebody else hit the golf ball a little bit better, like how cool was that man?
Speaker 2:Golf. We're very lucky that we have a bunch of people like that in our sport. You know, not anyone that's like him, necessarily, but a bunch of people who the game is the important thing and they'll pass it on. And he's got the juice and he's got the you know awareness to know whether that would work then or not. So, like I don't know, we're just, we're very lucky, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:It's amazing man, and you know another instructor that I don't know that I would say that a lot of his swing stuff is stuff that I kind of use in any way. But something that's always struck me about David Leadbetter is, if you meet anybody who's ever worked for lead including lead himself they are pros, pros, they're utmost professionals. Andrew Park, gary Gilcrest, I mean, these guys are just solid, solid individuals and honestly, it's what attracted me the most to you is that you're a really solid guy in your own right man, and I I don't think that there's any qualms about that, or I don't think you would be the person to lead the group of individuals that you're leading right now.
Speaker 2:Well, that's very nice of you to say it the way that you did, but I come, I'm lucky. Excuse me, I come from a family of golf professionals, so my dad dad.
Speaker 1:By the way, I don't think that people know this. I didn't know this until I did the research. Where are you from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a West Coast guy, grew up in San Francisco Bay Area, california. Just yeah, I mean my dad. My dad grew up in Southern California. He played the tour, went to USC, was an All-American there, played the tour for seven years and then came off the tour straight into the job that he held for 41 years. He was the head professional at San Francisco Golf Club for 41 years.
Speaker 1:What was it like growing up there, Kev? What was that like?
Speaker 2:Well, we didn't, you know, we weren't members there.
Speaker 1:So we play a little bit right, like you got out on a Monday every now, and then Monday.
Speaker 2:Monday's, yeah so, but you know it's this extra special place with extra special members, extra special golf course and you know, a true respect for the game and reverence for the game. They just they're all people that like, love the game and know it really, really well. So I think my dad felt very, very fortunate that he was, that that's the place that he went and that's why he stayed as long as he did. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean that's a long career at a club. I mean people don't realize like that's a really difficult thing to do because when you work at a high end private club they tend to be managed by the board.
Speaker 1:And the thing is is that the board comes out of the general membership and the chances that you upset a member are pretty good in the private golf business. So you know, every year there's or every couple of years there's some turnover and it's hard to keep everybody like kind of in your corner man. So hats off to your dad. That's not an easy feat.
Speaker 2:There's all these things that I kind of you know, we there's some Mark Twain quote that said something about. You know, when I was a kid of 16, then, you know, I thought my dad was the most ignorant man in the world. And then, you know, by the time I was 21, I was amazed at how much he had learned, but I never thought that about my dad. And yet, you know, when I went away to UCLA and was not recruited, was trying to make the golf team there, and then was reading as much as I could from best players, and then you know best sports psychology and listening to interviews and just observing as much as I could, I got a much greater sense of how correctly my dad did things. You know, because every time a good player would say, well, I think about it this way, or whatever, I, you know, come to this conclusion. I'd be like, oh, that's what my dad says, and that just happened over and over and over again. And then you know that's on a playing side, and then to be able to transfer that into a club side and a teaching side.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm 20 years in at the same place and you know it's the greatest place in the world and I'm the most lucky. Well, both places, both at the Country Club and at Harvard I work around great people all day, every day, and it's a huge reason why I'm, you know, not back on the West Coast where a lot of my family is, but, you know, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. And yet I look at that and I'm 20 years in and my dad did more than double that in the same place and I'm like how do you have the energy to keep on going? The consistency, the value system, you know all that stuff, and so you know for me to have that as my primary example and then to continue, that the Director of Golf at the Country Club is Brennan Walsh and he's, you know, tied for the best in the business. Director of Golf at Harvard is Fred Schoenacker, and he's an unbelievable mentor, and you know. So I'm just, I'm incredibly lucky. So, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1:That's kind of wild man, I mean. I always tell people I think golf is this incredible gateway for young people.
Speaker 1:And the reason I say that is because I look at like my background and where I come from and definitely had it better than most, and I'm not trying to paint any negative pictures, but I definitely was exposed to things through golf that I wouldn't have otherwise been exposed to and I really do not believe that I would be as successful or feel the way I feel about myself if it wasn't for golf in my life. So I just think that it's interesting to hear, like you know, growing up not necessarily at San Francisco Golf Club and I understand what you mean, I've worked at private clubs. You're not a member. You get to kind of like see it a little bit better than most, but you don't necessarily get to like play with all the shiny things. So I get what you mean.
Speaker 1:But at the same time you're still around those people and, to your point, right, like those are really motivated, highly successful people. That's why they're at that club. And when you start hanging around those types of people you start picking up on their habits, right. So you know a lot of people. They are going to be a little better read than maybe at the public university or the public school. So I mean you just kind of pick up on these habits and, like you said, man, you've always kind of been in these positions to where it's like such a great spot to be. If you can kind of like maybe slow down the ego a little bit and go, hey, let me sit back and learn a little bit, like you're going to really take in a lot, it's one of the hardest things I think you know when you're younger, which is if you, if you, you know, have some faith in yourself and you know kind of what your aptitude and abilities are.
Speaker 2:you know it's like I shouldn't have everything right now, and it does feel that way and it does take a long time, kind of, to find your way to find the right people to be around to. You know, for awesome people in front of you to kind of like let their careers run their course and then, you know, eventually have space for you. So but, yeah, that that balance between patience and also still working as hard as you can, to know as much as you can, to be as good as you can, that's a I think that's a hard balance, but anyway, sometimes we get lucky and sometimes we find that.
Speaker 1:Part of mentalization and time management skills that you have to possess must be off the charts, because I mean you're not doing anything. That's kind of easy, man. You know what I mean. Running a golf team is difficult, like I mean. I work and consult with several. You know Division One, division Two programs, and I mean the commitment on the kids is off the charts relative to a normal non-athlete.
Speaker 1:You know, student going to school, and when you and I'm not trying to say that Harvard does it better, harvard does it different or anything like that, but it's just there are expectations that are different when you go to the Ivy Leagues, especially when it comes to academia, and I mean the load that the young men and women that you've coached in the past have at Harvard is unfathomable and you're expected to lead these people.
Speaker 1:And what most people don't realize about college coaching is there's never any time to do anything because of breaks and because of you know there's a calendar and you know you can only do so much. And then you're going from there and you're like, okay, well, let me have a little downtime. I just spent all my day with these future leaders and achievers. Now let me go take a little downtime and you cruise over to you know the country club and now you're teaching a bunch of high end, expecting to be achieving adults and like they expect results and you're able to go and deliver an amazing coaching experience for them and then do everything else that you do, man, I mean like that's no small feat and I think that that's really overlooked by a lot of young coaches. In terms of the time management you need to be successful in this industry.
Speaker 2:Well, as as always, you say things extremely well, nuanced. You're able to put yourself in other people's positions unusually well. So, that said, it's all that is very kind to me. Like I said, I just there's a lot of things going for you know the situations that I'm in that really I just feel very fortunate for. So, for example, the academic stuff. You know, balancing academics and and trying to be the best players that we can be. You know, first, if they, if you're not eligible, you can't do it.
Speaker 2:But our kids are very much. You know, not every place is unique and the big hope is each person finds the place that's the best fit for them. You know the kids that we are very fortunate to get and that I'm very fortunate to work on. One thing I never have to do is tell them to study or like do what you need to do just to be eligible. They are, it's so who they are that they would never not work as hard as they could to get the best grades that they could in school, and so you know that's just. That's not an issue. What that does do is it does make it interesting to try to then balance how do you also be as good as you can be, you know golf wise. And again, we're very fortunate to recruit kids that are really good competitive players before they come here.
Speaker 2:And I think the biggest challenge that we have is we get every once in a while someone who wants to turn professional and kind of pursue that and occasionally that that happens for sure. But we, most of the kids, are kind of, you know, going to turn pro in something else. And I feel like absolutes are easier to pursue when you're like I put everything into being the best student I can be, or I put everything into I'm going to be a professional golfer. Those are, you know, not that it's an easy road in either direction, but it's easier to say oh well, all my decisions are made for me because I'm all about this.
Speaker 2:When they're trying to excel at both and they have to kind of be nuanced about, as you said, time management and also kind of how do I prioritize? And when you know the message we always send is is academics first and then golf is a close second. That's, we're looking for people that have alignment in their value system in that way, but that's, it's easier said than done. It's hard to go to, you know a big D1 college tournament for our kids with players that a number of our kids have competed very well against in the past and they go there and we've been spending it's something like, you know, between two thirds and three quarters the amount of time on golf that they are, and yet we want to. You know our guys want to and our gals want to kick everyone, you know, but just like the other kids want to kick, our butt, yeah, so anyway, for the most part, I mean you've had from that's.
Speaker 1:the thing that is wild to me is like you have had very high levels of success, kevin, like this this is not the reason I wanted to have you on. It's not a normal college coaching job. I mean, as much as your humility shines through and you try to minimize that, you're just doing what you do and I respect that Like it's not a normal job Like we're talking about. You know golf in school, these kids also were. You know college aged right and want to have social life too. So we got to fit that in there and the thing is is to your point. It's very difficult to do and your, your kids that you're working with, are not only doing that, but they're also having success in both, in both lanes, and I think that's a testament to leadership always.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks, I, you know I, I just I keep coming back all the time too. I'm very lucky because my you know my dad I was around it early but my dad never forced it I would. You know, when he came off tour he was still invited to play in the Crosby every year. Being Crosby was a member at school golf club and stuff, so we'd go down and watch him compete in that and like I thought that was what golf was for a long time. But then when I started, you know, really it's like mid high school, when I started trying to get better at the game and then deciding, I think I want to try to play in college and then, like I kept at it my first couple of years at UCLA when I wasn't on the team, and I think, just because I continued to have such strongly positive experiences with the game, then I I don't know and my dad just kept on doing it at such a high level over and over again that I just have, I have very high passion for being around it at whatever the highest level is that I can be, and so I hope that that's, you know, one of the big things.
Speaker 2:We go in and out and I'm sure that our kids have felt. You know more or less of this for me over the years, but for the most part I really like being around people. I really like trying to get people to be as good as they can. Well, I like them to. I like to try to help people get what they want, whatever that is. And if I'm with some high performing people and I can keep things in a positive, healthy, controllable, as much as possible light, you know, that's, that's what I'm lucky, that that's what I enjoy doing.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean that's, that's just general life rules, right? Like you know, you know you can have an amazing impact on so many people just by like saying their name to them.
Speaker 2:It's kind of one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Speaker 1:Right, like I, you know, stop wherever I stop in the morning and get like a coffee or something. And it's like you know, they got pretty high turnover because it's a stressful, crappy job and like nobody wants to do that. And it's like I swear to you, man, sometimes, like I always look at their name tag and I always call them by name and the looks you get from some people just for like recognizing the fact that like they're just the human being, right, it's, it's crazy man. So I don't disagree, but I still think it's amazing, like what you guys do. I mean it's, it's just really high performing culture.
Speaker 1:And that's one of the biggest things I wanted to talk to you about is, you know, you've seen it from the playing perspective, you've seen it from the club perspective, you've seen it from the coaching perspective, right, like, and you kind of know, like there's some like just non-sartors you've already kind of alluded to that right, like, I don't have to tell a young man or woman at Harvard that they need to study, like that kind of. You know, we don't even bring that conversation up, they already know the rules. But, like, what are some of those things you think that really stick out in these high performing cultures that maybe you notice when you go, and you don't have to. I'm not asking you to bash anywhere, sure, sure, and then you can just stand out at other facilities. You know, like man, I don't. I don't know how this is going to work without having this thing in place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no. So again, my mentors that I've had, and you know, between my dad and my uncle, and then Rick Martino, who was the director of instruction for the PGA of America when I worked for him for a year and a half, coming from Oakmont he was coming from Oakmont and then Brennan Walsh and then Fred Schoeniger. You know, at all these places I these are super high performing individuals and they care about people and you know it's both as simple or as complex as you want to make that, but you know I continually Not have to remind myself because it is somewhat who I am. I do like people and I care about people.
Speaker 2:A lot of times people say, you know I'm too nice or what it is, but that's balanced with, you know, really badly wanting to do well. Also, because I think if you know, if I'm only nice and I don't try to help people and we don't and we aren't successful, any of the stuff that we're trying to convey to them Starts to ring hollow and it doesn't really, you know, give the impact. So, or that's gold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is such gold right there man.
Speaker 1:You are absolutely right. You cannot just soft out of it all the time with people, man, because yeah, never learned. That just becomes the norm and it just yeah, right, and it. I think what you said there, man, and so many people miss, miss that to where you know, I, I kind of, and I run a facility, right, so I'm around the people that I work with a lot more common than most coaches are around their clients. You know, maybe for the weekly lesson or whatever, I'm seeing my players two, three times a week if they're coming here to the facility.
Speaker 1:So it's really interesting, though, how people are like man, I can't believe they ever come back here. And I'm like why? And they're like, man, you just ripped them a new one like that. That didn't seem fun at all, like I wouldn't come back for that. And I'm like, yeah, like I get it and and you're right, and that's why I would never rip you that way, because if I rip you that way and you don't have that wanton, that drive, you're just gonna fold up and think I'm a jerk and like, think I'm taking a bad day out on you.
Speaker 1:But with my youngsters, like when I rip on them, right, they go out and they figure it out and, and, and most of my kids, because this is what I recruit, you know they're kids that need that. That fires them up and they come back harder at you and and what I'm looking for them to come back right and go hey man, thanks for giving me that because I needed that, because I wasn't doing my job. And when you can get kids to start thinking that way and start being able to handle some constructive criticism, dude, it changes everything. Because then when you are nice with them, they know it's sincere and they know that they're doing well because they know that you'll tell them when they're not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's super well said and you know I, it is a challenge that I will Run into sometimes with, you know, if we have limited time to work on golf and I do think Confidence is something that I try to protect at all costs for sure and then I have to be careful and right and ride a line, because if I'm always boosting confidence, then when are they learning and when are they getting anything of value? So but if I'm, you know, always ripping, that doesn't probably work either. I think a lot of times our kids effort is never an issue with them. I think, before I started, you know, college coaching here, if I had any conception of Harvard it would be oh, it's all just a bunch of brilliant people and they, like, don't even have to work. That's not, you know, they're just, they're gifted and you know, sir, certainly from an aptitude standpoint they're very, very high aptitude. But I would say the thing overwhelmingly in, you know, 19 or 20 years of working here, is the effort level is Just sky high all the time. So most of the time I never need to Correct because, you know, I don't need to yell at them like ever, because that would be if they weren't trying or if they needed a Different motivation. And that's never a problem. I have to find ways to kind of convey a message based on I know you're trying as hard as you can, but still we need to be correct in this way. And I Read a thing it was just an article about reflections on Saban this week and one of the things that one of his you know coaching staff said about him is so I don't know, I've never met coach Saban but but talks about you know, if you're not coaching it Then you can't expect it. That really coach, you know, tell them what you want and why it's a value and stuff like that. And I do find Sometimes In my, in my lesser good moments, when I'm more tired and more less patient and stuff like that, there are certain things that I might consider like base, foundational things and they maybe don't do it and I'm like what are you doing?
Speaker 2:You know, in my, in my bad space, I'll get mad at him, at least to myself, and say why aren't you doing that? And then I think about it more and say why haven't? I guess I haven't clearly asked for that yet. They don't know why it's a value, they don't know that they're doing it or not doing it. So just tell them and Tell them why.
Speaker 2:Most of the time our kids, if I tell them why and what's behind it, the value behind it, they'll get behind it. If they know why, it's either going to help them or it's going to help our group. So I think that's one of the other things that I in my better space. It's always like you need to coach what you believe and what you think is important and then don't be surprised if they don't know it. Yet I kind of think more and more. I think common sense doesn't that much exist. I think you know Everyone's coming from, it's more global and you know different experiences and stuff like that. So don't be surprised if someone doesn't know something. Just explain why it's a value.
Speaker 1:So I think that's gold too. I mean, I'm gonna take it a slightly different way and I agree with you right, like as a coach man, you know. Like, for example, in the weekends you know I'm slamming coaching all weekend. It's wild, but, like you know, I'm standing there and it's like maybe the sixth person that's hot that day or whatever. And I'm like to your point, like I'm a little tired, I'm a little cranky, and it's like you know I see him do something. And it's like man, like I know you know better, you know what I mean like I know, and you do want to walk over and like slap them upside the head and be like what, why don't you get this? But at the same time, man, like there's been so many times to where I've walked out there and just Flipidly made a comment to somebody like, oh my god, you've never said that before.
Speaker 2:I've ever said you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And like they. Just they receive it a different way. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I think one of those things that you have to remind coaches is like you just have to keep coaching what's in front of you. You know, it's not about what you coach before, it's not about what you're gonna coach six months from now. Like you just got to show up and coach what's in front of you. So one of my big rules that I try to have is like I have amazing technology, have the best technology that there is. I have it all, whatever you want. So like I know that, like if I show up and I'm present, that I'm not gonna get this wrong, like I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not gonna be rude, I'm not gonna be disrespectful, I'm not gonna say anything and put my foot in my mouth. If I can just like show up and be present, this golf experience is gonna go really well for this person. So that's all I got to do, man.
Speaker 1:And it's like it's so hard to do that. And like the modern aid when you're running around and doing this and doing that. But, man, it's like it's it's refreshing to hear somebody else say that, because it's so true. Man, like you just really have to keep. Like that's the thing about being a coach man it's. You're never done being a coach. You're always coaching until you go out in a wooden box. So you know you just got to keep doing it.
Speaker 2:I love everything you said. That I think it's right on and it does remind me again I have, I'm very lucky, I have 11 year old twin girls and you know certain things it's like and they are phenomenal kids and I'm so lucky and but you know, we need, as humans, we need constant attention, we need constant reminders, we need this and and if, if we keep on doing that and can remember that that's what it takes to kind of develop, help develop a human, then yeah, then we show up, be patient, be present, and then a lot of good things will happen over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's wow, right, I mean I, I find it hilarious, man, it's. You know, we're really fortunate that. I really think, like you're an agent of calm, you know, I mean that's that's what I would refer to you as and that's kind of like what I, the college coaches I advise, like that's what I always call them. I call them agents of calm Because if you kind of think about it, man, like, in certain situations, you know, the coach tends to be at the facility a whole lot, right, like that's kind of like their little nest and it's like these birdies are just flying in all day and like dude, everything in their life is crazy. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like you know, and we're not talking about men and women of Harvard Maybe have it a little more put together we're talking about maybe this kid's making a two, five GPA and hanging on by a threat. So I mean you're, you're constantly the one place that these people are going. That's consistent. And like the, the trick for a college coach, I think, is you can kind of be a little over the top, negative, you can be a little over the top, you know, positive, but you better be consistent with it, right, yeah, because, like, if you're not creating that sense of calm in that nest, then these kids aren't gonna keep gravitating towards you and then you're gonna have a real hard time getting all your hands to want to fly in one direction. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:And a great reminder, because it's true, they take so many cues from us. You know, either on purpose or not, and Totally so, if we're, if we're ramped up and stuff like that, about you know a shot didn't go well or a round didn't go Well, then they, you know they're justified and also feeling that way too, because that's what they saw modeled. So I love your calm in the middle of the storm An analogy, I think that's. That's that's right.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, like I just did another podcast the other day. I was invited on and they asked me they're like what's the one thing that you do now that you wish you would have been doing, like when you started coaching, right like what's, what's the big thing? And I really think they thought I was gonna say something about ground reaction forces or something like that and kind of get they wanted. But actually I gave him my honest answer, which is neuro peak, pro Right and teaching kids how to breathe.
Speaker 1:And I think it's been, without a doubt, the single Number one thing that if you improve your breathing, you improve performance Is a lot of things. And it's like, once again, you know, do we want these kids to perform Well? Of course we do. We want these kids to perform better than anybody else. Like, we're invested in this, we've spent money, we've got time, we've got feelings, we've got all these things invested in these kids. We want them to do so well and we push them so hard and I'm not saying you do per se, but I'm just saying in general society pushes them so hard and then it's like, oh, we're over simulated, we have absolutely no room left to like, take anything on, and that first shot that goes crooked out there. Man, it's like the world caves in on their skull because they cannot internally regulate. So in my mind.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's just what it's all about in life is being able to Absorb what's coming at you and make good decisions and hopefully not have the same thing keep happening. So you know, breathing, I think, is kind of important and when I, when I talk to these, these teams, man, and you see the teams that are having success, it's just funny to me how much it's less about the X's and O's at this level, kevin, and way more about the, the human factor, if you will.
Speaker 2:So kind of two quick thoughts about that one that just I'm again from the San Francisco Bay Area, so I'm a Golden State Warriors fan and and a Celtics fan, but Totally so, but but awesome in all ways. And Steve Kerr, I'm a big fan and someone, yeah, kind of sent a quick, a quick hit that he did. And he was talking about kind of what you know what he experienced when he started coaching and went to go see a lot of different coaches, one of them, which was Pete Carroll, and Was in a camp with him and like the end of the second day called him into his office. So he and Pete Carroll is like what are you gonna coach? And he's like, well, like what do you mean? What offense am I gonna rent? And Carol said something like you know, no, no, no, that doesn't even matter, it's like what are you gonna coach? And and Kerr said I didn't know what he meant, but eventually it got to like you know your value system, what do you truly believe in? And that will set Kind of the tone for what the players are going to experience day in and day out, and if we kind of know ourselves and know what that stuff is and then try to model it, then I think you know that's that's going to be super helpful.
Speaker 2:And I love a couple that you know. One of them was competitiveness but another one was empathy and another one was joy. And you know I I don't know I've gotten that from that team and watching that for many years and it's pretty fun to watch. But the other thing that made me think is that the thing that made me think in the breathing, in the space, to take what comes at you and kind of thing, I had a player at the club asked me to read a book, to vet it, that just came out like not that long ago, but it's by Dr Raymond Pryor and it's called Golf Beneath the Surface. Maybe you've read it or not, but I really like it. I think it brings a lot of different things together that I think you know We've heard, or heard snippets of, for for a long, long time, but it kind of, yeah, brings them in under one cover and I'd I'd recommend it to a lot of people. I think it's pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1:So right there, you have to look that hard. So this is the mindful athlete with George Mumford Awesome and like this is. This goes back to what we're talking to me, right, this is like hot topic, right, like you go and look for mindfulness and any of that, like I mean, you can't get more like on topic and on brand if you try. But when you read this book, george Mumford was brought in to work with the bowls During their run we're going back to the 80s, brother, and like that once again.
Speaker 1:Like this breathing, this mindfulness, this, you know, getting to a creative space to where you can slow down the stress and kind of see plays unfolding before they do. This all goes back to like breathing and it's not something that's new, like I, I know. Like we bring up, I say neuropeak problem, they're like oh, that's, you know, that's all witch doctor stuff. And like it's all new. No, it's not new, it's just, once again it's taking technology Right and applying it to concept that maybe is very old and then using that technology to show somebody how to apply that Concepts. Like that's that's all it is training for right.
Speaker 1:So I think that you know there's a lot of those things that go into these high performing cultures that have been around forever.
Speaker 1:But I think the great thing about social media is like guys like you know, you and me could have conversations and we can compare notes now and it's like I think a lot of you know Our best secrets are really the, the basic stuff that just kind of goes into being well-rounded and being able to perform at a High level. You know, obviously recovery is a big one, you know. I, I, I cannot stress enough and I'll say it to you, and I don't I'm not sure if you guys do this or not, but you know, for college athletes, I think the single best thing you can do with them is a whoop strap, and I don't think it'd have to be an athlete, I think, just for young people in general, and I'm not saying that like I necessarily think that the whoop strap is the most accurate or any of that stuff, but what it is is it's consistent onto itself and now at least that person can understand what's going on with them. And like when these young people start seeing like how much this sleep really screws them up man Like they kind of course correct themselves.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:Isn't that great. Yeah, god, I couldn't agree more. I think it's fantastic, and you don't have to have it on for that long before you start to know your way of doing things and knowing what you're doing. I don't have one on now in full disclosure.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know somebody's gonna get on the internet and kill me. I don't have mine on right now I haven't worn it in about a month but I know my numbers are pretty much set, like I know exactly what I have to do and that if I'm not in bed by 10, I can't get my sleep score to 70. And I need my sleep score to be at 70. So my recovery is at 92 or 93. So I mean, like just knowing that stuff, man, if I can get my recovery in the green and I show up to play golf, man, I'm going to play better, or at least feel better playing at a 92 than I am a 65.
Speaker 2:And who knew, alcohol didn't make you sleep better?
Speaker 1:Wow, it's weird, right, Like I think that's why whoop has such a hard time with adults, because they just hate seeing how much that beer really hurts.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1:It's crazy though, man, but I mean I really think you know, I've spent less and less time kind of traveling and doing education, like taking in education. I've been doing more education myself, but the education I am taking in, man, I keep finding myself like these biohacking, like conventions, Because I really once again to kind of drive this home. You know I'm talking to a guy that's achieving a lot at a really premier program that has really high standards. But, once again, what are we talking? We're not talking like swing plane and all that. I mean I really think it's more about the human element as you go up in levels.
Speaker 2:Incredible. Yeah, I agree, and I again the more I know, the more whoops here, there you go. Yeah, the more. I know the more I agree with what you just said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I can't imagine like you, can you imagine going back to your playing days, like with the information that you have now? Like it's wild, isn't it? Like I mean, I'm sure you think that way, just like I think that way right. Like if we had force plates and track man and like actually understood, like that we were breathing like idiots because we were 18, and you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Like man, what's so good?
Speaker 1:Crazy.
Speaker 2:I know. So I know we do the best we can with what the available info is and we know a lot now, which is it is really fun. We feel I feel very lucky to be teaching and coaching at this time. It's awesome.
Speaker 1:Your favorite. I'm curious you get to wear a lot of different hats which I'm jealous of because I get forced and just a couple of them but, and you get to see the sun, which I never do, as you can tell.
Speaker 2:That's why you look way better than I do.
Speaker 1:My curiosity is like where's your happy place teaching? Like if you had to go and teach today. Ok, you can be at Harvard with the men and women, or just the men. You can be at Brookline. You can be wherever you want to be, like where's your happy place? Coaching Like if you had to give one golf lesson the rest of your life. What are you coaching and where are you coaching at?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, my answer is going to be a hedge, of course, because it really is that I like all of the different things that I get to do, because they're different. The commonality is that I generally get to spend time with people that are choosing to spend time with me. Nobody's forced to, it's all like by choice, so they're kind of bored.
Speaker 1:They're even paying sometimes, isn't that crazy? They even pay you a little bit, like that's what you want to do.
Speaker 2:Well said, but so they're relatively open, they're relatively like, happy to whatever, but I love all of it. So at the club I'm very lucky that we have driving range and we have practice putting great in a short game area. But there's also a third nine, the primrose nine, where I love being able to get out on the golf course and actually take things, see what's presenting when they're out there, letting them talk me through things, observing what they're doing. That might be different than what's on the range, deciding whether we just stay out there longer or whether we take what we learned out there and then go to a place that's a little bit more efficient and do that back in the practice area. But that's another thing that I do feel very lucky about.
Speaker 2:The college coaching is, which is instead of an hour, half hour, 15 minutes, where I get to spend with someone, usually in a practice area. In the college coaching I get to watch them do all of it. I watch them practice, I watch them play for fun, I watch them play for qualifying, I watch them compete and I get to also cross-reference all those things and say, well, wish things really are showing up when they're under pressure or they're playing in a competitive round and then work my way back to all those other areas which might be the best place to help them work on those things, to get them ready to go back out and do it again. So I love the variety and I marvel every year that both the club and the school let me do both of those and that my wife and my family also let me do those things, because I really like all of them.
Speaker 1:That's awesome man. And I think one thing if you're still listening to this podcast to this point, you may kind of get a feeling that Kevin has to be fake, that this can't be real, he can't be this happy, he can't be this joyful. But I can assure you, every time I've ever talked to him, he's this way and I honestly try to live up to that standard that Kevin presents, because I feel the same way Kevin does. We have the greatest jobs in the world. We do them at completely different places. He could tell me a laundry list of reasons why he's right and I could tell him a laundry list of reasons why I'm right. But at the same time, we both legitimately feel that we have the best jobs in the world because I believe I do and he believes he does.
Speaker 1:So we're very fortunate because we both know what we enjoy doing and that's obviously helping others right, and there's a lot of different ways that you can help people, and I think one of the things that I enjoy the most about golf is that it is so closely related to life. There's a lot of life lessons out there and I love golf. It's very challenging and complex and I love the fact that I can go out there and play with somebody that knows technically a third of what I know, and he goes out there and beats me, and that really doesn't sit well with me, but it happens and that's just the way it goes. Man, it's one of those games to where you never can stop learning, because you're always going to find something new. And it's one of those games where you can never stop improving because the courses just keep getting harder and harder, so you kind of have to stay at it.
Speaker 2:That's funny. I don't know, Early on I probably had a preference for not stating that stuff as overtly, Just because I don't know it sounded wrong, maybe how I was growing up or whatever to golf as metaphor for life and stuff. But it's totally true and the more I go, maybe it's more age appropriate now that I can say things like that a little bit or sneak it in there a little bit. But it's true. All the things that you said it's hard, it's fun, it's you never, you certainly never master it, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you get to compete some, but I definitely, again, with my dad as my model. My dad's still working on his game and still competing and loves it. And, luckily, when I can do it, I do it just because I think it's fun. And I think when I stopped playing, that was the first thing I wrote down, which is don't forget what it's like to be a player, Because I can sit on the other side of that and tell people what to do or try to coach them up the right way and stuff. But trying to continually relate to what that's like, I think is really really important, at least for me.
Speaker 1:Let me throw this one at you. You might like this. I made a decision late last year. I was over in London with some of my good mates that are new friends of mine over there, and they were nice enough to take me out and play some golf and I really fell in love with golf, again thanks to a guy by the name of James Day.
Speaker 1:And James has a golf club collection that would make you blush and I mean he's got all the cool. It's nothing, that's like crap, it's all like really cool stuff like from back when we were younger and whatnot. So I got to play with some old pubs that are really cool golf course called the Addington, and we had a real blast. But I kind of I had a weird experience we played.
Speaker 1:The weather wasn't great, it rained. I didn't have golf shoes, I was in tennis shoes and my feet were soaked. And like I'm one of those super prepared guys, like I've got the full Galvin green rain. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like and like.
Speaker 1:I'm so out of my element here and I should be miserable, I should just be fuming. I'm not playing overly well, like nothing's going right. But I just had this amazing experience because we were playing golf. It didn't matter like what the shop did, like we were just playing golf, man, and like I was like there's something there because I've been a miserable golfer for a long time and I'm just no fun to play golf with. I know that. And it's not because I like throw a temper or anything, it's just I'm pretty quiet because, honestly, I'm just kind of like frustrated and disappointed in myself. Sure, no, I just can't make myself do it all the time.
Speaker 1:So, like I coach golf for a living, and I coach golf at a high level for a living. So in my world it's all about perfects and like trying to make everything right and that it minimized this, and so you're going to love this. But I'm going vintage man. So I've got a bunch of old golf clubs on the way and I have a new found friend named Todd Dempsey who makes modern persimmon woods and we got some balladas and we're going to start like playing golf again, man, because that's where I think this industry is losing it, man, because it's all decimal points and X's and O's, and like graphs and like I don't know about you, man, but most people I think got into golf did not have to learn graphs. So like I'm just trying to get back to having fun, man, and like play golf for what it is, which is, I think, a social game, and I think that that's why we're happy, man, because we're social and, you know, we get to share what we're passionate about with a lot of other people.
Speaker 2:Dude, that's badass. Like yeah I, I, I'd like Todd. He was a couple of years ahead of me at Arizona State and he wouldn't know who. I was, but I know what he does and I just I can't believe it. What he did in in Q-School last year, right Playing with those, I don't, even I don't. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:I have a sickness. I got deliveries today.
Speaker 2:That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, it's going to be great. But I mean that's, you know, I think I think back to San Francisco Golf Club, and I don't I've never been there, I've never stepped on the property, but I have a vision in my head, right, and it's black and white and it's grainy and it's it's old man, and it's like I think back to that and I just nobody knew anything, like people didn't even know the world was round, right. Like I mean like people knew nothing and people were out there still perplexed by the same problems that we're perplexed by, and like to me, like that's what golf is about and I get it, man, like I've got a QI 10 with a graphite, I got all the cool stuff too. But like there's also like another way to enjoy golf, man, and I think what we've talked about today is just about every way to enjoy golf except like how to swing a golf club.
Speaker 2:Awesome. And that's a sort, that's a source of enjoyment too. You know you, you find in it what, what's good for you, and then do that as much as you can whenever you have time to do it.
Speaker 1:So but you're, we're all just like addicts at the end, right, Like we're all just like degenerates and can't get enough. I mean that's.
Speaker 2:That's basically what it boils down to my wife would absolutely agree with that. I'll I'll finish teaching after a full day and then I'll come home and I'll eat something and either you know if a major's on, I'll start watching that, or after I spend time with the girls and they go to bed, then I'll like pick up a pattern and start working on it. What are you doing? I don't know. It's a different thing when I'm trying to do it versus other people, and all of them are fun. All of them are great.
Speaker 1:So yeah, exactly so I thought. Last thing, here you brought up something really interesting. You brought up Nick Saban, and I'm a huge Nick Saban fan. I was freaking heartbroken when he retired and I mean, I get it, man, like the guy is way ahead of the curve and he understands things much better, and he definitely understood that the nil thing was a new thing that he wasn't going to figure out in his time, that he had left.
Speaker 1:But you know, I think if you look at, if you look at Nick Saban and you look at Bill Belichick, one thing that really stands out to me is, like coaches like and I'm including us in this conversation coaches like always demand discipline. We always demand it Like you got to be disciplined, you got to do the right thing when that time comes, like you got to perform. Like we expect all this discipline, and the one thing that coaches generally do not exhibit is discipline. Right Like. You think to a lot of college coaches on the sidelines, man, like, think about the way that they're leading their team, like they're going nuts, they're brats, they're throwing things, they're cussing, they're kicking, they're screaming, right Like.
Speaker 1:I really think, though, when you watch Saban, unless it was just like a really bad call and he only did it every now and then like pretty common collected, bill Belichick, pretty common collected. And when we're talking about like ultra high performing, you know teams or communities or whatever you want to call them, right, like you're talking about two of the best to do it in their sports and leadership, remain calm. And one thing that I'll say about you is that I think you have a very calming presence, right, and it's like I think that when you talk about like what do high performing places things do, it is create calm, right. It's manage the noise, it's control the controllables, it's really putting a plan together, right, but I think that that, at the end of the day, is really what it takes to be a high performing kind of person and facility and to lead people to the high performance.
Speaker 2:I think it was in a podcast with maybe with Gio Valiente, that he was talking about kind of have your stuff together, because if you're asking other people to do it and you don't do it, it's not going to ring true as much. So I hope I'm attributing that correctly. But I liked that. When I heard that and I definitely try to do that and I also going to UCLA, my whole family except for me kind of went to. My mom, went to Cal, but everyone else went to USC Southern Cal and so I, when I went to UCLA, I became I was disowned from the family, not really.
Speaker 1:I figured.
Speaker 2:But one of the great gifts that I got when I went there which is unfortunately it wasn't on my radar before I went there but after was John Wooden, and I've read a lot and so has everyone else that's coached and stuff and he just said I kind of I'm not specialized, just a guy who tried to live up to his beliefs as well as possible, but but he was also all about preparation and doing everything to prepare his team so that once you get to the games there's not a lot of yelling and that kind of stuff that needs to be done. Someone told me I met a Patriots player that played on the Super World team where they played against the Falcons and they were down big at halftime.
Speaker 1:And it was 23 or something. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So, and you know they said I don't know, I'm speaking out of school, but he said something like you know, what Belgics said to the team at halftime was not this crazy fiery speech and pump up or whatever. He said something like if you play better, you can win. So I don't know, I mean the fire motivation right.
Speaker 2:There's a time and place sometimes, but there's also a time and place, as you've been saying really well, which is to stay calm and let people know. You know we'll make adjustments, but you can do this if we've prepared correctly. You know, have faith in yourself and believe in yourself and then go out and operate the practice has to be harder than the competition or you'll never have success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, one thing that I always remember is a friend of mine told me that he once noticed Brooks Kepke was like looking at a calendar and like there were dates circled. And like he was like, what are you looking at? And he's like, oh, just like looking at my off days, he's like, are those the days circled? And he's like, yeah, and those are like tournament days. And like Brooks looks at tournament days as off days because like he worked out so much harder and everything else during the week to get ready for that, but like by the time he gets, that's the easy part, he already did the work.
Speaker 2:And I mean I thought we need to practice like that. That's like he gets nodged.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what man, that dude. I've seen him practice and like he doesn't need to practice because one of his practice sessions would last the average dude about three years. Like I mean, it's pretty, he gets the work, man. But you know, I think that once again, like he, he doesn't look at it the nerdy way, right, he's not going well. Let me chalk it up with you guys, x's and O's. He's going like hey, if I get my body right, my mind right, I'm going to come out here and beat the math. And that's just kind of how he sees the world right. And I think you have to have a little bit of that warrior spirit. But once again, to use the great John Wooden, you know, if you're not prepared, man, it doesn't matter how much bravado you got, you don't have what you need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh man, happy for Brooks that he you know he showed it again last year and then he can do it now as long as he wants to. So it's pretty impressive.
Speaker 1:I'm not the nathayer. I think that you know there's a lot of people in the golf industry that have hurt feelings over what's been going on and, honestly, anytime the business comes to the forefront, people kind of get, you know, less interested because it's not raw, raw and about feelings anymore. But I think golf's in a great place. I think the performance you're seeing at the signature event is unbelievable. I mean, you got to go out there and you got to shoot 30 under man and these aren't easy setups and what you're seeing performance wise, pretty incredible. But, with that said, you are a busy man and I do not want to keep you anymore. And, dude, I really appreciate you coming on. This has been fun.
Speaker 2:This is as always. I don't get much of it, but I enjoy my time with you very much. Thanks for your questions, thanks for everything you do. Thanks for focusing. Like you said, I do think golf's in a really good place. For sure, I know the other stuff will die down at some point not that far in the future and we'll just get back to focusing on the amazing things that are going on.
Speaker 1:So well, that's for sure. And Kevin is always out there doing stuff If you're interested in kind of keeping an eye on him. I don't think he does very much on social media, if anything, but you can kind of pay attention to the men's Harvard team, see how they're playing, see where they're going to be at. One thing real quick before we go I have a couple of kids that play at Villanova, and one thing that we've always talked about is the team at Harvard man. They are professional and they're a good group of men, and the way that they go about representing the game is second to none.
Speaker 1:So once again, thank you to Kevin for leading them and helping them become the best they can be, and it's been a real treat because it's very rare that you get to talk to people who have lived a truly incredible life and have really been around some great people, and to share some of that wisdom has been great for all of us. So thanks so much for tuning in. Please make sure to subscribe and share this with anybody that you think would be interested. So thanks again to Kevin and until next time, keep grinding.