Embark on an enlightening exploration of the greens with Michael Dutro, joined by the esteemed Salima Musani, former pro golfer and the current head coach of Team Canada's women's team. In a narrative woven with personal trials and victories, Salima opens up about her transformative journey from a competitive player to a coach with a mission. Her tale is not just about golf swings and tournament wins; it's a story that goes beyond the fairways, delving into the heart of resilience and the art of nurturing future champions.
As we tee off into the technological revolution within golf, we debate the pros and cons of data's dominance in shaping athletes. I share firsthand insights from the PGA show, reflecting on how modern tools are sculpting the game and whether they're restricting the creative spark that is essential to the sport. Together with Salima, we ponder the balance of embracing tech to refine skills while preserving the raw, intuitive essence that makes each golfer unique. Listen in for a candid discussion on the delicate dance between embracing innovation and maintaining the authentic spirit of the sport.
Rounding out our discussion, we take a mental approach to the game, considering the strategies that separate the casual player from the seasoned pro. Salima and I navigate through the psychological landscapes of golf, from the quiet focus needed to outmaneuver challenges to the discipline young minds acquire from this age-old game. Whether you're a golfer seeking a competitive edge or simply a fan of the game, join us as we connect the dots between mental agility, strategic thinking, and the pursuit of excellence both on the course and in life.
Embark on an enlightening exploration of the greens with Michael Dutro, joined by the esteemed Salima Musani, former pro golfer and the current head coach of Team Canada's women's team. In a narrative woven with personal trials and victories, Salima opens up about her transformative journey from a competitive player to a coach with a mission. Her tale is not just about golf swings and tournament wins; it's a story that goes beyond the fairways, delving into the heart of resilience and the art of nurturing future champions.
As we tee off into the technological revolution within golf, we debate the pros and cons of data's dominance in shaping athletes. I share firsthand insights from the PGA show, reflecting on how modern tools are sculpting the game and whether they're restricting the creative spark that is essential to the sport. Together with Salima, we ponder the balance of embracing tech to refine skills while preserving the raw, intuitive essence that makes each golfer unique. Listen in for a candid discussion on the delicate dance between embracing innovation and maintaining the authentic spirit of the sport.
Rounding out our discussion, we take a mental approach to the game, considering the strategies that separate the casual player from the seasoned pro. Salima and I navigate through the psychological landscapes of golf, from the quiet focus needed to outmaneuver challenges to the discipline young minds acquire from this age-old game. Whether you're a golfer seeking a competitive edge or simply a fan of the game, join us as we connect the dots between mental agility, strategic thinking, and the pursuit of excellence both on the course and in life.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the measured golf podcast, where I, michael Dutro, sit down and talk all things golf with some amazing guests. And today we are very fortunate because not only has this person had amazing success being a coach, but also amazing success as a player as well, including winning not only at the junior level, but also at the college level and professional level. So this person, without a doubt, is no stranger to doing amazing things with a golf club in her hand, and she has done an amazing job helping a lot of young golfers out there as well with being the head coach for the Team Canada women's team. So, without further ado, we've got Salima Musani from Team Canada today and we're very fortunate. Salima, would you like to say hello?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no problem, thanks. Thanks for having me, michael, and yeah, excited to see where this conversation goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's going to be fun. I mean, I was kind of introduced to you through some of the players that you work with at Michigan and some of the influence that you have from Team Canada's perspective, and I've really kind of been blown away since I got to know you. I think it's really cool what you do and I think your story is incredible. I mean, it's never easy to achieve and it's even harder when you have other obstacles in your way, and I mean you've just kind of really had this cool career to where you've had success at just about every level. That's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's part of the journey. I feel very, very fortunate that golf entered my life and the places it's taken me Obviously never would have thought this is where I'd end up, but it all makes sense at the end of the day. Yeah, as a player, as a junior golfer, the dream was obviously the LPGA and I got a little taste of that through my playing career. And now, you know, circumstances have brought me into the coaching world and, yeah, I haven't really looked back.
Speaker 1:Have you got to the point yet where you're ready to say whether you enjoyed being a player or a coach more, or are you still kind of figuring that out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's moments, I mean, I definitely miss playing. There's definitely moments where I wish I could still be playing and be out there with doing what these girls are doing. But I know my health kind of holds me back from that and I have tried. I did quit coaching the first time when I was in Stanford to go play again and I had to swallow that big pill and really get the. I was like that's fine, it's like you really just can't do this anymore. But I tried. I gave it everything I had and I fought through the highs and the lows and I brought all that wealth of experience and all the things I went through into what I'm doing today.
Speaker 1:It's really tough, though, right, I mean, I think what you're talking about doesn't get talked about enough with athletes and it's like you know, we all have the dreams of winning majors and like making millions of dollars and all of that. But at the end of the day, very few of us do that and most of us unfortunately kind of have to retire before we're ready, if you will, because we can't keep the skill level up or the output level where we need it to be to compete. And it's really tough, I think, I mean especially if that athlete doesn't know what the next thing is going to be for them. So I'm kind of curious did, at the end of that second stint of your playing career where you kind of knew like you were done for good this time, maybe did you kind of think about going into coaching slightly differently than you had before and like, hey, now I'm actually going to like devote my time to being a coach, or was there really no thought to that and you just kind of changed roles?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually, once I stopped playing I didn't go directly to coaching. I actually went down a couple other avenues. I went and did some business development at a startup, I became a financial advisor, I worked in the hotel business, I did a few really random things and I was just teaching on the side because people knew I was a golfer and I obviously had been coaching at Stanford. So I was just teaching in the evenings for fun, and then it's all. I got back into it by the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just doing it for fun, to satisfy a few people basically, and I quickly realized that, like this is where my passion is. I mean, I've invested so much of my life into like getting myself better. I know what it takes, I know the steps and, yeah, just the balance kind of just shifted. The lessons were here and the financial advising work was heavier and then it just slowly tipped and I was having way more fun being at the driving range and I was getting a lot more referrals. I didn't have to do those cold calls, I didn't have to chase people to like sign the documents and make a deal. Yeah, it was kind of a in that way.
Speaker 2:It was a slow but quick transition. I did that other stuff for a couple of years before I just gave it up fully. But yeah, it's been so. To answer your question, I didn't really think about it, it just kind of happened. But I have, in the process I've definitely grown a lot. I've learned a lot more. When I first started teaching, I was very like teaching kind of just my own ways and what I when I knew and thought. Since then I've learned a lot. I watch everything, you pick up bits here and there you learn from different people and kind of create your own style.
Speaker 1:How much of you the weird question maybe, but like how much do you think you've grown personally, as you've kind of grown as a coach, and what I mean by that is I'll use myself as an example I kind of had my thoughts about myself and everything as a young man and then, as I became more competent at coaching and learned more things, like that growth mindset kind of bled into my personal life too and like I really was able to find myself and find my happiness through coaching, kind of like you're describing. I'm wondering if you didn't kind of have a similar experience that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think definitely the growth mindset is I mean, never mind as a coach, but as an athlete, as a human having a growth mindset is absolutely necessary. But yeah, I think that I've definitely in my personal life, I am always learning, I'm always trying, I'm trying. I was growing. I do a lot of volunteer work with my community and, yeah, definitely having a growth mindset, I have to work with a lot of different people. You have to come up with lots of ideas, strategies, put on events. But yeah, it's definitely something that I kind of incorporate in my whole life and it's important to have that, just as a human trying to get better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and that's what you know, I just got back from the PGA show a couple of weeks ago and you know you know me, selima you're probably talking to one of the biggest golf geek nerd guys out there and I love data and I love all the tech and I use it nonstop.
Speaker 1:But at the same time it's like I kind of feel like that growth mindset is almost getting stripped out of the game a little bit, because so many people are trying to force so many young players into these boxes and like hey, you got to produce this data set to be a good golfer and we know that. You know, at the highest of levels there's so much variance and there isn't truly one way that they all go about doing it. So I'm just kind of curious, like you know, what do you see looking at it? Because you kind of get to look at it from a lot larger viewpoint than most. You know, working with Team Canada. But like, where do you kind of see like golf development going right now, selima? Like you, do you think it's moving in a positive direction? Do you think we're actually having a positive impact or do you think we're using the technology in a way to where maybe we're not helping as much as we could be.
Speaker 2:That's a really good question.
Speaker 2:I think if we just look at golf in general and golf growth and development, it has changed a ton, even from the time when I was a junior right If we go back 30 years, you know we didn't have Trackman, we didn't have Bushnells, we didn't have, we had to trust the sprinkler heads on the ground.
Speaker 2:We had to look at our ball flight, we had to make the adjustments and figure out what to do, not based on club path and attack angles and face angles and spin rates and all that good stuff. You know low points, but we had to figure it out on our own. And so I think a lot of the learning is lost with the Trackman and I think for us as coaches, it's our duty to, you know, continue to make our players learn, the ones who are becoming successful to be honest, I like to call them, like, the expert learners and then you know, the key ingredient to being an expert learner is again coming back to the original question is growth mindset, I mean being flexible enough and knowing, and so I think some of the onus.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're right. I mean you got to have some failure mixed in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean our men's national coach told me this quote while back, Derek Ingram, and he said success leaves clues, and I mean you can use that at all different levels, right? Success by winning a tournament, success in hitting the shot you want, Success in carrying out a habit? I mean there's ways in which we get these things done. Everybody has their own way, and I mean sometimes for some players the box approach might be the way and it might get them, you know, to the level that is the highest for them. But I think that there's a. There's definitely some onus on us coaches to challenge our players and to let them fail, like you're saying. Let them fail, let them learn the hard way, let them challenge them, make them frustrated. But you definitely have to think outside the box a little bit, because if the girls are not learning and you're just telling them what to do, you're going to hit a plateau at some point where they become too dependent or they don't have a way to make those fixes on their own.
Speaker 1:What I see a lot of. I see a lot of dependency on the tech to tell them what went wrong, and I think, maybe stealing a little bit from what you just said, I think the reason for that perhaps is because, to your point, they don't have to dig it out of the dirt, so like they get that instantaneous feedback oh okay, this is how I do it. And because they didn't have to figure that out on their own and go through that process of learning, they don't really they're not nearly as well adjusted for when it goes a little awry, maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean look the track man and the data.
Speaker 2:It makes practice more efficient, like let's be honest, right, Like I don't have to go and spend an hour hitting balls to figure something out and five swings I mean, you don't need to really hit more than five balls to know what the pattern is, and especially for an elite player. So I think that efficiency is definitely improved and I think that's why you're seeing more and more good golfers, because they're just learning quicker. I mean, they're getting better, faster because of technology, agreed, but yeah, I think when it comes to high level, elite performance, you need to be able to make adjustments. I mean, on the PGA Tour, lpga Tour, the players that are winning are the ones that make the best adjustments the quickest, and you have to. Golf is not a game of perfect. We all know that. You're not going to go out there and hit all every shot exactly how you wanted to, and so being able to, you know, create shots, being able to make those adjustments, those are all things you have to do outside of the technical. You know, machine.
Speaker 1:That's what I think it gets lost in the sauce coach. And what I mean by that is like I had Kevin Rhodes on who's the men's coach at Harvard and we were talking about his players and we were kind of talking about how, like because they're people that are at Harvard like there's certain things you don't have to tell them. Like you don't have to tell a kid that goes to Harvard to study Like they, that already comes with the territory right. So like he doesn't have to necessarily, even though grades are very, very important at Harvard, he doesn't necessarily have to tell those kids how to make those grades because that already goes. Like that's just one of those core competencies that you have to have to be there and at your level, I would imagine and I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth, but when you're looking at players and evaluating, like I can't imagine that you're like leaning over to see the track man.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine that you're wanting to see the force plate graphs, Like you're out there watching them play, and I think that that's really what's getting lost right now is there's a million kids out there that can go out and shoot. A million shoot even par. I see it all the time If you look at AJGA fields, there's always like a ton of kids right around par but then they don't really learn how to take that next step per se right To where they start breaking par pretty regularly. So I'm just kind of curious like where is the disconnect and where are? Where are we as coaches needing to elevate our games to where we can change this narrative with junior golfers, to where it's not about having perfect data? That's great, Like we need to see some good stuff there, but we also need to learn how to go out and play and be creative and be responsive and being able to like emotionally regulate on a golf course, Like I think that skills kind of overlooked a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, sending your players out to play is key, whether it's just in practice or playing competition, especially at the junior level.
Speaker 2:It's definitely, definitely important. And you know the work that we've done with Ian Highfield and Zach Parker with the game, like training and like pushing the girls and challenging them, putting them through things that are frustrating, things, that are hard, things that they don't want to do or that they're like you know this is too much or you know it's that's part of it. Right, forcing them to have these emotions and forcing them to feel these things is part of the growth. It's part of the plan not making them want to do it, but this stuff is all important, it's all like it's necessary for growth, it's necessary for learning and that's where the transference comes, because when they're on the golf course and they're playing for their National Amateur Championship or they're playing at the US Open, they're going to have feelings and they're going to have sensations that they haven't practiced. But if they have an idea of how to handle these and manage these, then you know they're one step ahead of the next person.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, kind of like we were talking about earlier, salima, you know so many kids I think especially in my space, to where I'm indoors you know they kind of know what they want these numbers to be and when they, when they create those numbers right, because we're in a simulated environment and they're calm they get the result that they're expecting. But then they go out onto the golf course, right, and they more or less feel like, hey, I did everything I was supposed to do and then the shot didn't work out and it's like, okay, well, there's more to playing golf than just hitting a golf ball, right. So you know, what is it that we can do to try to simulate better transference of skills and better training that leads to better tournament results? Getting them onto the golf course, I mean, how do we go about doing this, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a great thing. This is what affects the transference and being able to meet the moment, so to speak. Right, that's what we're doing is training our players to meet the moment. We don't know when that moment's going to come, what it's going to be, but we can help to prepare them for those moments, and a lot of that's going to come through creating the spacing effect, creating context, the psychological pressures. These are all things that if you don't have the context Ian Highfield once gave the example of you're training for a triathlon you're not going to practice swimming in a bathtub. That's not the context, right? So through giving them these game-like training simulation situations, they're able to feel we can set it up where they're competing against each other, you can set it up with a time limit and have a goal. But it helps them to just get off the driving range flat, lie same condition over and over, and it forces them to move around. It forces them to create spacing.
Speaker 2:So hitting 14 drivers on the driving range in a row is not transferable, because we don't ever do that, we don't ever get a chance to hit the 14 shots. So their principle of learning is all about losing a feeling and recalling it. So, as you're doing, let's say you have a player, you want them to do a combine on Trackman, instead of just doing the combine and hitting 10, 12, 15 iron shots, spread it out, set the Trackman up, have them hit a driver through a gate that you create. Come to the combine, hit the approach shot, go hit a chip or go hit a putt. Come back, hit the drive, go hit your second shot on the combine. So now, when you get your final combine results, it's a little more realistic of what they would do in a tournament versus.
Speaker 2:Okay, I've now hit 15 iron shots in a row. I have a feeling I'm just going to keep recreating this over and over with my four iron, my eight iron, my wedge. It's forcing them to lose it and come back and recall it, which, as we know, is what they have to do on the golf course. So for us that's been a game changer, just introducing this into their practice. Some of them love it, some of them hate it.
Speaker 1:I'm. You know, I'm fortunate enough to be a Trackman master and I own several Trackman units and I've always been dead set against the combine. I don't like it, and the reason I don't like it is because it puts the target score out there. That's not achievable and I don't like doing something to where the failure rates 100% of the time. So for me, like we've created combines but we create a free to individual player based off how far they hit it, which, in our opinion, is way more transferable than just, you know, having kids do a test that they can't. You know, for some of my kids to hit a shot 180 yards, you know they're hitting a freaking hybrid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, or a free one.
Speaker 1:Or they're a driver and it's kind of wild. So at the end of the day, I like what you're saying there and the thing I'm the most curious about is you said something really cool there, which was meet the moment, and I think that that's a really a really big thought. But I think it's a thought that really doesn't get enough daylight with. Training athletes right is preparing them for what's going to happen. And we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know the experience and the emotions that they're going to have. But if we give them ways of learning how to manage these things, then they can meet that moment and adjust to that moment. So I'm kind of curious from a playing perspective. You've played on some pretty darn big stages and you've won a lot. I mean, were you prepared for every single moment out there, selima, or did a few things?
Speaker 2:sneak up? Absolutely not, absolutely not. I mean I could tell a story of you know, my win on the Epson tour back in the day. It was the major. I definitely was not ready for it. I lost my breakfast on the driving range. You know, I actually did my caddy like dragged the pyramid of balls and like just covered it up and was like, okay, let's keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, you know that's what happened right right before you threw up Selima, like what was going through your head. I'm curious.
Speaker 2:Like I was. I was feeling I don't remember exactly. I was remember us feeling like unsettled, Like normally for me. I'm nervous. I show up at the golf course. As soon as I hit a putt or hit a shot, I'm settled. I'm like back in my element. I'm like, okay, I know how to do this.
Speaker 2:All the thoughts and dreams of like I'm never going to, I'm not going to know how to hit a golf ball when I get out there, you know, like all these things used to cross my mind. I remember very, very clearly and then, as soon as I'd hit a ball on the range, I'm like, oh yeah, I know exactly what I'm doing. Like what, what was I freaking out about? But that morning in particular, it was the fourth round. It was a, the only four round tournament. It was the major on the back. Then it was the futures tour, but on the Epson. And, yeah, I remember going to tee up the first ball, Like I'd been scraping irons and warming up. And then I went to tee up a three wood and I, like you know, bent over to tee it up and boom like that was it.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I felt much better after and I just kind of moved on. But I wasn't like I wasn't psychologically ready to meet that moment, like I didn't have a sports performance person, I didn't have anybody helping me. My coach at the time, sean Foley, had actually left a voicemail at the pro shop basically saying like you've worked your whole life, you're not going to lose your skills overnight. You still have everything you've ever had, like go do your thing.
Speaker 1:And that was kind of the I'm like Sean. I mean, that sounds pretty much spot on like Sean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the validation that we need. I need it Right.
Speaker 1:I know what I'm doing during the round.
Speaker 2:Just another day.
Speaker 1:Did you think about that message from Sean?
Speaker 2:I don't remember specifically, but I'm sure I did. I remember having one swing thought out. I still remember that swing thought I had that day and I, yeah, I just kind of went out there and did my thing and trusted, and you know, you kind of I don't even remember telling myself like, oh, you're, you've been preparing for this whole moment your whole life, but it just kind of happens. It just kind of happened and but now, now we have all the parameters right, like we know, we can kind of set them up, we can recreate them, we can help the girls to to find these ways of excelling. But like I remember seeing Nick Dunlap's interview a couple of weeks ago when he won, and I think he said like I couldn't feel my feet, I couldn't feel my hands, I couldn't feel my face, like how you can't prepare for that. You just, you just cannot prepare for that and all you can do is have routines and have strategies you know to to get back All you had out there.
Speaker 1:Slema, was you right? Like I mean, you found a way. Like, yeah, you're right, you didn't have any of those things, but yet you still somehow found a way, and it's. It's not because you weren't prepared. You didn't know exactly what you were going to have experienced, but at the same time, like you had all these other experiences to draw off of right, and that's what kind of prepared you to get you through that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean back, the way we prepped back then and the way we're preparing now is different, but it was a way of preparation, right. It was getting yourself ready and getting yourself. You know we used to do the here's the putt to win the US Open, and you know we still do things like that. But we can, we can create more energy around it. But back then that's what we did. Right, you play a chip with your, your dad or your friends and it's like okay, this is for this. Or you know the old school, let's play for lunch.
Speaker 2:Something that means something to you is really important. If you're, if you put that on the line and it means something to you, you're going to experience things inside of you that you wouldn't if you were just. You know playing for bragging rights. So you know, whatever that is for each player, whatever that, whatever we can do to kind of extrapolate that and have them feel that and again, it's a it's a good balance and mix of like frustrating the heck out of them, making really hard depending on the time of the year, the time of the week relative to a tournament, and then also, you know, making it easy and achievable at times where you know it's. We're getting ready right to peak and we want them to feel confident, we want them to be successful, we want the goals to be achievable and all that kind of stuff. So you can, you can vary the challenges depending on the time of year and, yeah, we just hope that when they, when they reach that moment, they're able to perform.
Speaker 1:That's. I mean that's awesome, it's not surprising. I mean there's so much good stuff that you're putting out there. And I hope my big goal for this is that some parents of some junior players kind of hear this and kind of hear what we're trying to say, which is there's nothing wrong with going out there and playing a bunch of golf and failing a whole lot and not winning tournaments, because you've got to do those things before you can win tournaments. There's really, in my opinion, no shortcut to it. I've been very fortunate and worked with some children who won a lot of things at an early age and they didn't continue to win. And sometimes it works that way and sometimes young people that don't win early on win later on. But I think the important thing that you've talked a lot about is like kind of understanding who that player is, understanding what their motivators are. You know everybody and I know you know this, but everybody's completely different. Not everybody can go out there and be completely stoic and perform very well, right? Not everybody has that Tiger gene.
Speaker 2:So I mean high performance. High performers are unique.
Speaker 1:That's the way it is my favorite thing I always hear. I forget who said it. I want to say it was Brett McCabe, but I don't think it was Brett. But somebody said that every person on the PGA tour that plays golf is at least two clicks off standard deviation in some way. And I believe that because I've worked with just enough of them now that they all are very eccentric in their own way. But I think that you kind of have to become very eccentric in a certain way to kind of understand yourself enough to perform at the level that these men and women do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think there's just on our national team. I mean you have all different personalities, you have all different styles of learning, you have all different ball striking types. You have, you know, the bombers, you have the shorter hitters. They're all successful. I mean there's no, there's no one recipe as to what's going to make somebody. You know, have that secret sauce and, like you said, it doesn't. Really there's no set recipe Like if you have this ball speed and you have this, this, this, you're going to be successful.
Speaker 2:The intangible stuff is the stuff it's hard for us to teach. We can help to bring it out, but I can't, I definitely can't teach self motivation. I can't teach their own value systems right, Like that stuff is all built into who they are already. So it's, you know, harnessing those things and trying to figure out what are, what are the pieces that are going to move them to the next level. Everybody has their own style, Everybody has their own comfort levels. Pushing boundaries sometimes can be dangerous, but we have to just figure that out as we go along.
Speaker 1:That. I mean, I think that's true, right, but the figuring it out part you said a great quote earlier, right, success leaves clues. You know it's. It's not on this linear line and it's not on this upward graph either. It's somewhere in between that. And I think that if you, if you periodize with your players and you actually put things on a calendar and then you actually start tracking things, like you can actually begin to understand kind of where that player is, because you know, as you know, you know one week's a great tournament, we hope the next week's a great tournament, but sometimes it's a bad tournament. And like, how do we differentiate those two things? Like how do we actually take away learning from the bad performance? Do we just like try to protect, you know, their confidence at all costs and say, hey, let's not pay attention to that, or do we kind of try to get out a little bit ahead of that and kind of dig into the data and try to differentiate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, one of the biggest skills that's also lost these days is that skill of reflection, journaling, reflection, stats. It's so key like stats are one thing, but the journal and the reflection on their part, the debriefing after around, you know being able to be a little more objective than subjective. You know if you walk off 18 and you just three putt, you might think you're the world's worst putter, when actually it's, you know, could be your approach play that day that left you with all the 50 footers that that pushed you. So you know taking the time and effectively debriefing around, effectively journaling, spending time. You know whether it's a great day or a tough day. What were your emotions? How did you handle them? Would you have made some different decisions? You know there's so many different ways. You can go kind of down those octopus tentacles to answer those questions, but really digging deep, because a lot of players will debrief and just say, yeah, I had a good day. It was, you know, I hit the ball. Well, I'm going to go work on my putting.
Speaker 2:It's like, okay, that's great You're reflecting, but like dig deeper. Like how deep can you dig? So pushing the girls to really like, reflect and think about what's what's going to actually make them better. And, like you said, like taking the good rounds and really really like analyzing the heck out of those ones and the rough ones. Yeah, you have to set some of it aside, but there's always learnings. Like, if you can't take something away from every experience, it's kind of lost in the matter, right? So, and I'm a big believer that like process, process, process, like what we do every day in and out, that's where you get your confidence. You know shooting saying, oh, if I shoot like under par, I'm going to be confident again. Well, that's just not going to happen. Um, you got to. You got to actually do something to get there.
Speaker 1:So, uh, the process is super main tape, I mean.
Speaker 1:I call them with the kids, because the thing that drives me nuts and it happens all the time and I know you know this went real well. You get a, you get a young person out there, or even just a person playing golf in general, and they get to where they're having a really great round. There's six, seven, eight holes into this thing. There may be a couple under par, maybe they've never done that before, but like, they get to that point and then all of a sudden, like the entire narrative flips in their head and they end up shooting like 76, 77, right.
Speaker 1:And it's like when you teach people that everything they do is a process and then you get them to actually practice those processes and understand them, then you kind of realize in that moment, when you're seven, eight holes into it and you're a few under par, hey, my processes have led me to this position. It's my processes that I'm doing right now that are creating all the good results. This is great. I just have to keep doing my processes and I'm going to be fine. And now all of a sudden, like you're positive instead of being fearful of oh my God, I'm going to lose this at any moment. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Cause you don't start thinking of outcome. Right, that's the problem. They start. Oh God, I'm four under, five under now.
Speaker 1:What now Right but?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean that's. That's a whole nother side of it, right, learning how to separate and not think of outcome and again be so, so entrenched in what you're doing that whatever happens at the end of it is just the result. That's a whole nother skill set.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard, it's hard, it happens to the best of us, I mean, even if you're Tiger Woods or whomever, like it doesn't matter, Like it's going to, the thought's going to creep into your head. Um, and then how? What you do with that, whether you put up the shield of armor or you welcome it, like you know everybody, everybody's going to manage that differently, but you have to have a plan for both right.
Speaker 1:Like you have to be willing to go either way with it, because some days maybe the one option isn't available to put up the armor and not think about it. And I strongly disagree with the idea that, like people you know can't think about their score. Well, they told me that for years and then every time I would think about my score I would feel shame and like that didn't help either. So, like you know, it's like you're going to think about it probably. What do you do about it when you think about the score is the score.
Speaker 2:I mean a strategy that I use, and I've done this for a long time. What I'm not watching my players when we're just practicing, I just use numbers. So there's no. The word par, birdie, bogey never comes out of my mouth. I've done this for so long that it's just the way it is. So if I'm watching a girl play I was just in Florida watching one of my players and she makes a birdie on a par three I just be like great to nice, to. Sometimes you make excuse me, sometimes you make a good six. I mean, sometimes I made a bunch of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, they're just numbers. As soon as you attach a word to them, there's negative connotations, there's negative emotions, there's judgment. A number is a number. You add numbers up, they're just numbers. So that's something that I've always done. I don't even know that my players maybe realize it or notice it, but it's just the way I've always been and I think it's important. I think that's one step in, like detaching from. The result is it's a number and, like I said, you might hit an OB on a T and make a five on a par four. It's a great five. It's a great five. You don't have to worry about the OB, you just made a great five, move on. So there's a lot of different ways to think about it and I don't know. It's just strategies, right, mike? At the end of the day it's having strategies, trying them, practicing them, see what works, what's the stick? Yeah, what helps you to kind of quiet the noise in your head in those moments that you can perform. But you got to have strategies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean I think that the thing that kind of frustrates me is I think so many golfers can hit one out of a thousand right, like they can hit a shot that kind of looks good and kind of feels good and all that stuff. And they assume with the types of players that you deal with that it comes so easily to them and that's why they shoot these crazy scores, but it's like it's really really difficult and they make it look really really easy. And the reason that it appears to be easy is because they practice these skills and these systems so much that, to your point, it just kind of becomes processes that they learn how to do. So I think that that's really the thing that people lose sight of sometimes is the fact that you know to make it look easy. There's a lot of work that goes into it. Golf is not an easy game.
Speaker 2:You're going to lose in golf more than you're ever going to win, and you have to know, behind every person that wins that week, there are a lot of learnings that happened before that. There's a lot of failures, however you want to call it, there's a lot of detractors, there's a lot of backward steps, there's a lot of upward steps. I mean, we know how this is Like behind every win, there's a wealth of experience and, as I'm saying, like their ability to reflect and learn from all these. That's the quicker you're going to get these successful results. If you're not journaling and you're not learning or reflecting and you're just going week to week, it's going to be a longer span, most likely.
Speaker 2:If we were to, you know, test case a bunch of people to where they have success, versus those that are actually taking the time to dive in and see what's going on and actually work in a way that's productive and efficient. So I think that's like to me, that's kind of the secret. Part of all this success is taking the time to look at it and to understand what's going on, to then, you know, strategize what you do, moving forward. But it's kind of a lost. It's a lost art, because we have all this tech and we have all this other fun stuff that they'd rather be doing.
Speaker 1:I always tell them like the notes thing, like my players take a lot of notes after lessons, which I think is good, but I always tell them I'm like you know that's really worthless if you never read it again. You know what I mean. Like, if you're a point, like we need to be reflective, we need to be looking back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's no good for me to write them for my player either.
Speaker 1:You know, I never write my notes.
Speaker 2:I'm like no, I want you to write the notes and then.
Speaker 1:I'll go in, I'll go word preferably, and play it back to me.
Speaker 2:Because what you feel what you feel when I give you something is not what I'm feeling. I don't feel anything when you're hitting the ball. So you got to write down for you what it means and what it feels like and what's going through your head in competition. What's I'm not in your head to know. I can see, you know you look like you're walking faster and you look like you're you know quicker in your routine, but I don't know what's happening inside. So that's on you to like. Sit down and think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's definitely something that I feel like.
Speaker 1:You know it's weird because I've worked with people and I have them on a program and you know I'm seeing them regularly and I'm doing the practice, planning form and things like that, and it's funny because I feel like so much of the time that I devote to them is in the planning stage of things because they just golfers don't think that way.
Speaker 1:Right, like a lot of people treat golf the same way they treat Monopoly, right, like you get it out every now and then you go out there and you throw some dice and things happen and what do you know? There's winners and losers, but there is a strategy that you could apply to Monopoly and you could learn how to play the game. You know more to your advantage and you could like, if you wanted to devote your time, you could. And that's the same thing with golf. And I just think that so many people, unfortunately, instead of, to your point, digging in and figuring out what they need to do, moving forward, they tend to rely on data points and numbers which don't actually equate to playing better golf. Correct, correct, call me crazy.
Speaker 2:It's well. It's the difference between you know teaching on a driving range and like coaching Right.
Speaker 1:So, I just think we need more of a blend, right? I think obviously it almost sounds like I've been negative tech this whole time, but I'm very pro tech, just like I'm very pro coaching and I'm very pro being on the golf course.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of validation, there's a lot of benefit to the tech, look like we talked about. If you have somebody who's kinematic sequence is totally off and you just keep sending them out to play, I mean, you're not really, you're not going to. Yeah, it's not going to help. There's certain things that you need the tech and you need the time to solidify. But as you, you know we're talking as you're kind of cranking up these levels of performance. The focus has to change and the focus will change.
Speaker 1:I just think that the focus needs to be on the low hanging fruit, right, and it's always easier to clip that before the crazy complex and technical and like I just look at so many young people going into college golf and it's like, okay, you know golf wise, they have the skill. But then you look at the other pieces, right, and you start wondering like where some of those skills are. And it's not hard, skills like learning how to breathe a little better, to regulate, to do some of these things, like it's just a practice of a skill. It's not hard to learn, it's just word me, I'll take the blame. Us coaches, you know, unfortunately sometimes are just a little bit of a problem and unfortunately sometimes they're just a little too lost in launch monitors and things like that to kind of notice the human standing in front of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, Mindfulness training is an integral part of what we do with the girls. You know whether they're doing it or not?
Speaker 2:is on them. But it's such an important part because they're all super talented. Let's be honest, like none of them need overhauls, none of them need, you know, major swing fixes. They can all play at the end of the day, you know where are they in their head, where are they in their confidence, where are they in their belief of themselves and all that, and where are they in the in their approach to managing all the things that are going to thrown at them that day, the surprises, right. Like there's always something that's going to show up all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:You go and you're hitting like a hook and you're a fader. Like you got to manage that, you got to be able to manage that, and that's all stuff that you're trained through. Situational, like you said, playing and playing in tournaments nothing can replace that. There's no pill to say here's 20 rounds of tournament golf and now, boom, you have that like wisdom inside of you. You got to just do it right. Practice is the art of doing, and so the art of going out and playing, the art of competing this is all different forms of practice. Like you mentioned, I think it's less sexy to practice your mindfulness. They'll go out and practice bunker shots from wet sand, soft sand, uphill lies, downhill lies, but who's actually going and sitting and meditating for 30 minutes?
Speaker 1:and training. I mean their mind.
Speaker 2:Their mind is what's hitting the golf shots. That's the part we have to get them to understand, like my hand is not doing what it's doing because my hand wants to do that. It's doing it because my mind is, my brain is telling it what to do. So I think really hammering that and trying to get them to understand like the actual effect of what your brain is doing on a daily basis is talking about young people, man. I mean, they're so distracted, mike, like they got like iPads and phones and TVs and smart this and smart that, and they're so distracted. They're so distracted and so they'd rather be doing. I'm gonna get you to sit.
Speaker 1:So bad, like I, honestly I'm so glad that I grew up without a cell phone, like I really am. Yeah, because like they're just hyper conditioned to see everything at full scroll speed and that's just like how the world existed, them right, and that full on scroll mode and it's like, man, if we could just slow this down a little bit, like how much better would you do, how much better would your decision making become, just by getting you to like look at a post every now and then instead of just full scroll. Like just slow it down a hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, our minds are so busy and so distracted that we like this. Dr Izzy Justice said that we're all. We would all be diagnosed as like schizophrenics back in the 1950s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great, because of all the activity in our brains on a regular basis and we keep training it right, like we just addicted to the phones and we just keep doing it Our mind is constantly wandering.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, getting them to focus for 10 seconds. That's all you need is 10 seconds of focus, clear mind, execute your shot, then you can go do whatever you're doing.
Speaker 1:I mean, honestly think about whatever you want, if you made me really sit down and think about, like, some of the positive effects of golf on young people, I would say it's the fact that it is like the one thing maybe where they're. Actually. You pretty much have to be outside if you're playing at least competitive golf, right, so like they're outside and they don't have a screen in front of them and they have to interact with their environment and socially.
Speaker 1:Yeah people like I think that does so much for a young mind that they don't normally get, because normally when they communicate in a group it's like through their phone.
Speaker 2:Yeah so I think it's rather playing video games with you know, 10 people on the other side of the world. Yeah, I mean, it's great that we're so connected.
Speaker 1:I sound like such a good off my lawn guy and like such a such a homer but at the same time, like you know, I feel like as as good as the technology gets and as good as we get at making our lives easier. You know, a lot of our joy and a lot of our happiness and a lot of our self-belief comes from moments when none of that stuff was present and we were just out doing things and being creative. And that's what I always try to challenge my kids with is like never get painted into a corner on the golf course. You know, always leave yourself out, stay creative. You know, yeah, it's stupid to try to punch it through that hole in the trees, but know that hole in the trees is there in case you don't like this shot and you all of a sudden decide you like that one. But just stay open to what can be done instead of being forced into a position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the more, the more your mind is quiet, the more options you'll see. That's scientific, like if you're in a bad space and you've hit a bunch of bad shots. You're going to see one option, but if you're clear minded, you'll see all sorts options.
Speaker 1:Well, you've seen this and I'm so glad you said that because I really want to bring this up to you how many times have you been standing next to a parent of a player and they hit it in the water left of the hole and the parents like, oh my god, how did they not see that?
Speaker 1:Right, they like kind of freak out that like the player hit in the water when obviously like the one place you can't hit it's in the water, and like they make that comment to me and I'm like they literally couldn't see the water and the parents are like what are you talking about? It's right there. And I'm like, well, when we over stimulate, our peripheral vision shrinks and literally that child is so overstimulated that they're looking through a hole that's just big enough to see that flag and they literally don't see the water. And you're exactly right, like kind of what we've been talking about throughout this is, I think, is is trying to be aware of the decisions that we have to make on the golf course and unfortunately, I think a lot of our players are out there and they can only see a flag at a time and that's why the decision-making is so poor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we can. We can sit and break this down for for days really. But yeah, you have players like that. Go for a par five, let's say, and then you know they're not actually looking at, oh, where's the place I can leave it, where 70% of the time I'll be able to get it up and down right. And then next you know you hit it, they hit it, they go for it too, which is what you wanted them to do. And then they short side themselves in a place where, like, are you going to make five now? And did you? Did they actually think about it? Is the question right? Like, yeah, we're going to have mishits and you're going to have this, that the other, like that's golf, right, but did you actually?
Speaker 2:What was your intent? Um, you know, that's the stuff I get at the end of the round, kind of. If I'm there watching. You get to ask, like, what were you actually trying to do? That's the first question. It's not a. Why would you leave your ball there? You know, like, what was your intention? Look like, I said you're gonna, you're not gonna hit everything perfect, but you got to set yourself up for the percentages and, um, understanding that and setting them up and helping them to understand. That is, you know, that's my job, your job, um all the other coaches is to help them.
Speaker 2:You know, like you said, they have very they're they're flag hunting. They just see the flag. That's what they want. It's our job to you know, whether it's the decade system or dispersions or however you want to address it, but helping them to understand, on certain flags, certain wins, certain conditions. You know they got to look elsewhere. You have to look elsewhere and make your focus something different than the pin, um, to have your high, highest success rates and, um, that that just comes from getting to know your player, learning, um, spending time, uh, and investing right. So, um, I have the, I have the privilege of being able to do that, getting to spend so much time and and watching these girls. But at the end of the day, it's still a challenge, right, they have their personal coaches, they have their college coaches, they have their parents, um, but it's still. It's still fun. It's still fun to to be part of this process and be part of these girls's journeys, um, and help them get to that next level. Uh, it's definitely a privilege. So awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can tell you know how much honor you feel in the role that you're in, um, and I think that that's great and I definitely think that the girls are super helpful for you. But I also think that the girls are super fortunate to have such great leadership in you, and I'm really happy that Team Canada has put you in the role you're in, because I think you're great at it. So, um, my hat's off to you and what you're doing, and I really appreciate you taking the time because I know that you are under the weather, but, uh, once again, it's been a real privilege to have you on. Uh, I really hope that a lot of people have listened to this and take away that you know, even at the highest of levels, you know as as X's and O's as you may think it would be, it really is about the overall human quality and development of that person. Over time, they kind of put them in position later on down the road.
Speaker 1:So I would strongly advise parents listening to this. If you have a junior golfer who loves the game of golf but isn't winning every tournament they play in, that child isn't failing. That child is learning and there's a very good chance that they'll eventually learn enough through loving it that they're able to compete at a very high level. So, um, I hope that that's the message it gets taken away. I really appreciate Salima joining us, and if you've enjoyed this conversation, please make sure to subscribe, and we'll make sure to keep having great guests on for you to always tune into. So thanks again and until next time, keep grinding.