Discover the allure of tradition blending with innovation as Todd Demsey from Todd Demsey Golf joins us to unravel the timeless beauty of persimmon golf clubs. Our conversation meanders through the craftsmanship of these classic tools and their resurgence in a sport dominated by power-hitters and metal woods. Feel the passion as we venture into the nostalgia of brands like Powerbilt, and reflect on a strategic shift in golf where finesse is often overshadowed by brute force. Todd's insights will leave you contemplating the finesse of a well-placed drive, the art of club making, and the pure joy of playing a game that's as much about history as it is about the scorecard.
As the fairways of tradition meet the tee boxes of modernity, we cast a light on the cultural shift within golf. From the communal charm of your local Hill Park to the social buzz of Ocean Side, we celebrate the sport's return to its more accessible roots. We recognize the growing appeal of simpler times while acknowledging the invigorating pulse of contemporary twists like Topgolf. Stories of personal resilience, the camaraderie of a round with minimal clubs, and the joy of a casual wedge choice underscore the diverse paths to fulfillment found within the world of golf.
Finally, we embrace the harmony between the artisanal heritage of the game and the precision technology of today. Delve into how data and tools like launch monitors and force plates can refine your swing and safeguard your health, all without losing the essence of golf. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a weekend warrior, join us as we explore how technology and expert coaching can elevate your game, ensuring every swing you take is one step closer to that perfect round.
Discover the allure of tradition blending with innovation as Todd Demsey from Todd Demsey Golf joins us to unravel the timeless beauty of persimmon golf clubs. Our conversation meanders through the craftsmanship of these classic tools and their resurgence in a sport dominated by power-hitters and metal woods. Feel the passion as we venture into the nostalgia of brands like Powerbilt, and reflect on a strategic shift in golf where finesse is often overshadowed by brute force. Todd's insights will leave you contemplating the finesse of a well-placed drive, the art of club making, and the pure joy of playing a game that's as much about history as it is about the scorecard.
As the fairways of tradition meet the tee boxes of modernity, we cast a light on the cultural shift within golf. From the communal charm of your local Hill Park to the social buzz of Ocean Side, we celebrate the sport's return to its more accessible roots. We recognize the growing appeal of simpler times while acknowledging the invigorating pulse of contemporary twists like Topgolf. Stories of personal resilience, the camaraderie of a round with minimal clubs, and the joy of a casual wedge choice underscore the diverse paths to fulfillment found within the world of golf.
Finally, we embrace the harmony between the artisanal heritage of the game and the precision technology of today. Delve into how data and tools like launch monitors and force plates can refine your swing and safeguard your health, all without losing the essence of golf. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a weekend warrior, join us as we explore how technology and expert coaching can elevate your game, ensuring every swing you take is one step closer to that perfect round.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measure Golf podcast where I, Michael Dutro, sit down with amazing people from the golf industry and talk all things golf performance and generally. When we think performance, we tend to be led to believe that new is always better. But today I think we're going to take a slightly different approach to performance and kind of talk a lot about you know, what is it that people truly value in the game and why do people love the game of golf? And yes, at the end of the day, we want to shoot low scores, but there's a lot that goes into shooting those scores. So one of the biggest things that we talk about generally when we talk about performance is clubs and equipment, and today we're really, really fortunate because we have not only a phenomenal player in his own right, but also a guy that is really putting the art of club making back in the game, and doing it with quite a bit of style, I might add. So we're very happy and honored to have Todd Dempsey with us.
Speaker 1:From Dempsey Golf. You're probably familiar with his name. He's been a heck of a player, playing four years at Arizona State, winning a national title and managing to do all that while roommates with Phil Mickelson, I think. So I mean the guy obviously has got some game played well with a professional level and recently he's got some publicity for you know, getting out there and mixing it up with guys and playing with some persimmon golf clubs. So I think it's unique. I think it's great. I had the opportunity to meet Todd down at the PGA show and I said hey man, I got to have you on, so without further ado, we got Todd. Todd say hello to everybody.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me. I look forward to talking to you about. You know whatever clubs golf swing, so thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, let's just start where we kind of met, right. So you did some. You did some persimmons for Powerbill, which is kind of a old school legendary brand in the game of golf that we're all familiar with, all the gear heads anyway, and they had you there, which I think probably had to be kind of weird for you to be standing there at a trade show and everybody's there to buy the latest and greatest and you're standing there with some persimmon. But what was the reaction to the clubs? Todd?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was pretty positive. It's a, you know, a company like Powerbill. I grew up in, you know, playing golf in the 80s and they were huge at the time. Fuzzy Zell or Jody Mudd, you know guys, miller Barber, who actually my college one of my college roommates was his son, Larry but yeah, just love the brand and they're looking to get back into the scene and persimmon seems to be a good fit for them and so to make some woods for them was a treat and I think most people liked them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it got me to stop, for sure. You know, I saw the Powerbill name and I was curious and drawn to it because they've been known to kind of sometimes go against the grain a little bit, I would say, as a company and I was curious to see what they had. And then, walk in by and seeing your persimmons, I was like man, like these, these aren't your grandpa's persimmons or these aren't the ones that you find, you know, at the Goodwill. Like, these things have some class, they have some style and, most importantly, they I think they have a different CG, if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do a few things differently than the old ones. The old ones were designed for a lot of balls, so when it's pretty frustrating to take one out of the attic and try to hit today's low spin hard balls. Oh yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look at that.
Speaker 2:I got a few of those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll tell you what man. Hang on to them, because they're worth their weight in gold. I'm not even going to tell you what I paid to get a brand new dozen of them.
Speaker 2:I bet yeah, but yeah they, I put a little more weight in the back of the club to give it. I don't know the science behind it, but I just tried different things. And that's what's interesting about Powerbilt they were the only ones that put a big brass weight in the back of some of their woods, so yeah, I'm doing the same thing, but it's hidden under the under this whole plate.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, they're designed to play. They're not designed to look at, they're designed to go out and enjoy the game the way I grew up playing it and I, I think a better way, but everybody's got their own own ideas on that. But I, yeah, I just I think it's changed a lot. You know, we're having to make 8000 yard courses now and that could have been avoided if we just stick stuck with, you know, solid clubheads.
Speaker 1:Once you start making hollow clubheads, it could change things, obviously, I throw something at your Todd and I think it gets overlooked a lot, bud, and maybe I'm wrong and you tell me because you were a player during this period of time but I think when you were growing up there was a premium placed on getting the ball in what we would call like a good drive scenario, meaning that it may or may not be in the fairway, but we have like a clear shot on the next one, right Like we're hitting good drives that are in play that don't affect our next shot, that much like maybe a little rough, but nothing too crazy. Right Like we really put a massive, massive emphasis on that and because of that strategy kind of led to hey, I want to be in the short stuff, not the long stuff behind the trees. That's really at a premium here and instead of like trying to hit over that where I might mess that up and it might overspend and it comes up short and lands in the trees, I'm just going to play short of that. So I think really that big distance thing is kind of lost in the sauce a little bit, because people are looking purely at data and they're not thinking about well, now, with a modern club, that's way more forgiving now, instead of worrying about those same trees because I might miss hit it now it's so forgiving.
Speaker 1:I just hit it right over top of the trees and I never think about hitting a two iron off the tee or a driving iron because I've got the equipment that's forgiving.
Speaker 1:So I think if you think about some of the actual ballistics and the dynamics that are at play with club speed, like you've been on record saying, if you hit the middle of the face, todd, you're per semen drivers within five or 10 yards of anything you could play right. If you hit it right on the screws, you're within 10 yards of whatever the latest and greatest thing is. So where the disadvantage is for you is that when you don't hit it on the middle it's probably a little more like 20-25 behind right Because it's over spinning and there's not the forgiveness there. But now we're talking about there being more skill placed on hitting the middle. But at the end of the day I don't think the ball is purely responsible for the massive distance gains and I think a lot of the massive, massive distance gains on paper actually come from strategic changes, not equipment changes, if that makes any kind of sense to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right. The huge heads now allow you to swing as hard as you can swing with that huge sweet spot. So I agree, it's not the ball, it's not the club head, it's the combination of everything. But I mean, I definitely think if you put a limit on the size of the head and made it have to be a solid head, you can use whatever material you want, but just no hollow heads. Baseball doesn't allow it. I guess they do in, not in the pro level at least. So I think if we had solid heads, they would have to be smaller because it'd get too heavy and yeah, I mean it's too weight, obviously, but it seems simple and I think it's a weight thing too.
Speaker 1:Right, I think weight really factors into it To your point. By the way, fresh from Japan, just got it like two days ago. I'm super pumped. You might recognize that shaft I'm trying to get in the camera there for you. That is an original Fuji Korra Motor F1. You probably recognize that. Yeah, I know that you recognize that the Taylor made R9 Super D.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Look at that. Oh brother, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, dude, this thing is great, it is awesome, like this is. A lot of gear heads consider this to be one of the Holy grow heads and the thing is is I can go out there and I can swing it just about as fast as I swing my current driver just a hair slower, but when you look at the smash factor it's not putting up a 150. It's just not doing it because I can't swing it that way because of the way that the weighting is in the head and the thing that I think we've kind of lost sight of. This is all metal, this is all metal everywhere, right, it's not fiber, it's not carbon, it's none of that stuff. So the weight all of a sudden gets a lot harder to shift around and move and kind of, what we're talking about is this, forgiveness, right? So when we start making the frame carbon and it weighs next to nothing relative to metal, now we can put a big CG weight plug in the back, like you were talking about with power belt doing with some of their persimmon drivers and having that big kind of block in the back. It's exactly what the club companies are doing now with these tungsten weights.
Speaker 1:So you know, I don't think that you're. I don't think that you're really gaining an advantage on the fact that you still got to swing it fast, to hit it hard. I just think that you're gaining a massive effect when it comes to the forgiveness and I really, unfortunately, don't disagree with you. But I think it takes a lot of the skill away from the game of driving the golf ball. Because I grew up in a time, and you grew up in a time, to where hitting the driver really was the hardest club in the bag to hit. Like that thing was hard to get right, man, and it was never real consistent day to day, like you kind of hit some different shots and you kind of learned to make your piece. But now anymore, man, it's like you show up and optimize that thing from the first hole to the last hole and you just kind of hit the same shot time and time again because what we can do with the engineering now it's just, it's a different game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right. I mean it's it's Probably too late to change it, but there's there's no doubt that I agree with everything you say and for me I'm not trying to change anything, I just do what I know. When I was done playing professionally, I was either gonna do something totally different or I was just totally wanting to get out of the game because the just turned off by well playing for a living and not having a ton of success at times was was difficult and Hard for an athlete man.
Speaker 1:I mean I think that that really goes over. Look right, like I mean Don't get me wrong when you're one of the top 20 guys on tour and you know, seemingly you're getting all the breaks right and like things are clicking, you know it is a good life man, but for the other 130 guys, whoo, I mean it's, it's rough out there, man.
Speaker 2:It is, yeah, I did. You know I was out there about 15 years and I Wouldn't trade anything. You know I got to travel the country in the world and play golf, so I can't complain. But I Was just kind of turned off by the game, the commercialization, the equipment. I mean a lot of the reps will Agree, I know I was always playing stuff. You know, five, five years old and come on, play the newest thing, man.
Speaker 1:Come on, we need to hit numbers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they, I mean They've been so good to me and that's why I don't. I'm not here to Complain about anything that the equipment companies have no right, but but I'm just, you know, for me, and then anybody else that's interested in playing the game the way it was played, you know Hundreds of years ago that that's what I'm here to do. I guess the shaft, this I don't, I'm not into Hickory shafts. I think I know Ted Moore is has got that figured out.
Speaker 1:I've got stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't, I don't know much about it, but, but I guess to truly go back to the way the game started you'd have to do that. But I just kind of go back to when I loved the game in the 80s and, and thankfully, a lot of people feel the same way and love the sound and feel of persimmon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't disagree, man, and I grew up. I'm a little bit younger than you, I'm 39. So I'm more of like that kind of 90s, early 2000s kind of golf era guy and I kind of always think of that as kind of being like tailor-made sweet spot right, like they kind of own the woods market then. And I love that old tailor-made stuff. I have a ton of it. We have our seven super quads and our nines and I got all that stuff, man, and I appreciate it for what it is and I can understand like what the engineers were trying to do. And then if you go and I'm kind of a golf ball weirdo too I have a bunch of old golf balls stock piled away and it's like you kind of go and look at those balls and then you kind of see where the engineer was coming from and what they were trying to kind of mesh up and produce. So I think it's beautiful that you're kind of putting some of that back into the game.
Speaker 1:And the thing that I'm really curious about, todd, is I would imagine you're more popular than ever. I would imagine you're getting more popular day in, day in, day out, and I think there's more people that are thinking more along the lines of you are and wanting to maybe pump the brakes a little bit on the equipment and the commercialization and the $800 green fees, and maybe you want to take it back to a time when it's a little more simple and a little more pure, and maybe you were playing for a Diet Coke and a Snickers. You know, I mean, I just think it's. There's a lot of people that are in line with you, a lot more so now, maybe, than ever before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you see it, with golf courses like Hill Park and Ocean Side and they're popping up everywhere where it's just a more of a low key, less presumptuous atmosphere. You know, just there for the game and not all the. I don't know how to describe it. But I just like I live here in North Florida and I could go to TPC as a tour member but I find myself going to Jack's Beach Golf Club, which is a muni down the street and I just feel more at home there and the tour has been good to me. But but it's I, yeah, just kind of turned off by the some of the, the way the game has gone. And again, I'm not. I'm glad others are interested in the way I, you know my, my clubs and the way I approach the game. But everybody's got their own relationship with the game and they're all.
Speaker 1:The game just really needs bifurcation. I mean, if you really just get down to it, the game just desperately needs bifurcation, and it's already happened. Like I have a very opinion that if you're going to talk about the greatest golfers ever, they've already come and gone and tigers started a new era. Like that Every everybody that was playing golf the same time as tiger was belongs to the era of old right and like we started something new now. But when you look at, like what Jack and Arnie and Sam and Lee and Sevi and all these guys did with the equipment that they had, with the ball that they had, with the course conditioning that they had and the scores they still shot relative to par, it's flipping wild man and and you know that and I know that, and anybody who's ever played with a super spinning ball to golf ball knows that like, and a lot of these guys weren't even playing with the good balladas at the very end of it right, they were playing with real junk. So my point is is that when you look at the scoring relative to par, I truly believe that those guys were the greatest golfers of all time. Now, what we have now is athletes playing golf, and this is a completely different thing and it's it's literally turned into a sport instead of a game. And anytime you have commercialized sports, you know dollars always kind of drive everything and as it gets bigger it gets more kind of bottom line and unfortunately it's the way it goes, unfortunately it seems like. But I definitely think that the guys of old I mean that's that was the skill man and it's.
Speaker 1:We need this bifurcation because so many of us, 99.9% of people that play golf, can't do what the guys on TV do. But the guys on TV set the standards for everybody and that's why there's not enjoyment in the game and I really, truly believe that. So I think that the bifurcation is already common. You're seeing it where there's a lot of people who are showing up to golf course. We have record numbers on the golf courses since COVID. There's record numbers of people showing up Todd that aren't there to play golf. They're there to like hit a golf ball and like have a party and enjoy being outside and like.
Speaker 1:I think that's cool. I'm not here for it, that's not necessarily what I want to do with golf, but there are people finding joy in golf again and the minute that people start having fun on the golf course again, here come the no fun police and it's just like I think this is finally going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back and we do get some bifurcation. And I think it's going to be great because we can look at basketball through the eras now and have conversations about who is the greatest of their era, and now we don't just constantly run into the Michael versus LeBron debate, and I think that that's what we need in golf and we need to go to like hey, this is when everybody played the same equipment. Now, this is when the tour guys played what they had to play to keep the ball on the planet, and this is what the amateurs had to play so that they could still have fun and enjoy the game. I don't understand why that's such a bad deal for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I think. Whatever, however, anybody wants to enjoy the game, go for it. Me, this is kind of the persimmon blades the softer balls. I try to. Always am trying to track down softer, spinier balls and actually found a good Wilson ball. That's really pretty good. Right, did the duo? Yeah, that's what I used to play. They have a newer version and I'm forgetting the name of it.
Speaker 2:But it's the next generation of the duo, and so for me, this is how I enjoy it, just trying to bring me back to the days when I was attracted to the game, and so yeah, but whatever, the top golf and all that stuff is great, I don't go there, but anything that brings people to the game I'm in favor of.
Speaker 1:I mean I think it's rad Like you march through the beat of your own drum and I don't know how many people that are listening to this would know your story. But I mean, it's not only that you have this unrelenting, authentic personality and you stick to yourself, but you've also overcome some pretty serious health issues while battling through the golf ranks too, man. I mean, you're one of those guys, man, you just keep coming and that's a beautiful thing and you keep coming your own way, which is even more remarkable because it's tough to do and there is a lot of pressure to change. But I mean, dude, coming back from two brain surgeries, I mean that had to be really tough just to even find some of that feel that you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was kind of right. When I was getting going I got my tour card right out of college and lost it right away. But as I was getting my way back to the tour on what's now the corn fairy tour, I had some pain in my left sinus and turns out it was a brain tumor, had two surgeries, basically about two years off out of the game Kind of right when I needed to be progressing my career Then had back injuries. It was kind of a lot of things at once. But again, I have no regrets. I'm happy I was able to travel and play golf, so no complaints. But yeah, I was either going to do something when I was done playing professionally. I was so turned off by pretty much everything related to the game that I was going to do something else. But that didn't last more than a couple of weeks and I was back at it making persimmons and coaching high school kids, which got a few off to college scholarships and yeah, I just love the game.
Speaker 1:But I flip this around real quick. So, ok, me and you are going to grab our golf bag and we're going to go play golf. All right, let me ask you this when we're on the golf course, instead of what turns us off and what we don't like, what does turn you on on a golf course, man? Like what? What is it out there that keeps you coming back for more right now? Like, what are you into right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it starts with walking and carrying my bag. That's probably probably the most important to me. I would really rather not play in golf than playing a cart. So I again, I have nothing against carts or Bluetooth, we're not anti-carts.
Speaker 1:here, we're just, we're just.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just do whatever. Whatever keeps you enjoying the game. But I, yeah, just going out, you know, with my kids or my wife and just walking nine holes late in the day with equipment that I feel a connection to, and is it always?
Speaker 1:different clubs every time you go, like are you constantly like throwing different stuff in the bag and messing around, or do you leave stuff in for a while and kind of build an opinion slowly, like how does it work with you, with the clubs that you build and play?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I keep it pretty consistent. I do take out clubs. I try to see how few clubs I can play with that. To me that's fun. You know, a short set with seven, six, seven, eight clubs, yeah nice. You know, my my woods are takes so long to make each one that I don't have a ton of options. I have a couple, you know, maybe a couple drivers, couple, few fairway woods that I have that are mine. So I I don't really have a ton laying around so I just stick with it.
Speaker 1:What about wedges? Are you a wedged guy or you kind of a freak? That way too?
Speaker 2:A little bit or no, Not really I've always yeah, as long as the loft is right and the bounce looks OK, just kind of a normal looking bounce, nothing crazy.
Speaker 1:You're a Florida guy, so imagine you like a little less bound.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am, and I've been here about 10 years I still haven't figured out the Bermuda. I just, but I, yeah, I'm not not really into the to the design of wedges, but I, yeah, I'm still, but still trying to figure out this Bermuda. I think I finally got something that works.
Speaker 1:I kind of chopped down on it and yeah, I got to show you some cool stuff. I think honestly I don't. I know that you're not the, the guy that's like following all this stuff. That's, it's not your scene, but Joe Mayo, who's a really famous swing coach, goes by the moniker a track man maestro back in the day but has had a lot of success helping Victor Ovlin kind of fixes, wedge play around the greens and all of that fun stuff.
Speaker 1:And one of Joe's big things is that for in Victor's case and I don't want to put words in Joe's mouth, he doesn't tell everybody to do this, but in Victor's case like he's like 10 degrees down with his angle of attack now, which sounds ludicrous, but people really don't understand how the map is calculated and all of that. And like for Bermuda, that's really about what you have to do, because the way that the root system grows, versus like a bent grass does or Kentucky bluegrass does up here. So like getting way more steep with an AOA is really the only way to do it down there, because you have to sever the grass, because if you don't, it kind of wraps and grabs. So there's definitely some truth to needing to be a little more choppy down there with the Bermuda, especially, especially the public place that you're playing at right.
Speaker 1:Like getting the championship or Muda over TPC right. So it's really kind of thick and grabby.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I kind of stumbled across that and then playing with guys from here that kind of know what to do, but that makes sense this is a beautiful thing, man Like I look at you and I just see an artist Like I don't really see like no offense, I know you can play dude, like that there's nobody questioning the fact that you can get out and get after it. But like you're the guy that's like the savanna there, man, like in the flip flops and the T-shirt I can still play with seven golf clubs and that's a beautiful thing. And what I've really appreciated is the more people like yourself, the craftsmen, the artist, the more of these people that I meet, the more we share kind of notes, the more I feel like I'm able to kind of jive and show you like how some of the technology proves what you feel is real. And that's really where I think that we kind of get lost with the technology and golf. And we can talk about technology and golf club design and engineering and construction. We can talk about the launch monitors, we can talk about force plates, we can talk about any of the technology you want to talk about.
Speaker 1:But at the end of the day all of this really boils down to does it prove what you guys have experienced as some of the best players in the world during a period of time.
Speaker 1:And if the answer is yes, then I think we're onto something Right. So, like I think that you know, do you understand trackman data and all that stuff? It's probably not your forte. It doesn't mean you don't get it, but probably means like you couldn't give me a definition of every number that the machine spits out. But if I said, hey, show me what works for you, and then I could show you how your attack angle gets steeper, like now we're seeing correlation in the real world, right. So that's where I think the magic is and, like you know, like we got to move this center of mass around this golf club for a modern golf ball. You might not know the ballistics and the engineering behind that, but as a player you figure that out over time, right. And I think that that's where we got to use the technology to actually make the game more enjoyable, not just make it more confusing and more expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. I know that the stuff that you do that I've looked at it absolutely is in line with what I've found over the years playing golf. So it's fun to see. You know sometimes I'm, you know I try to avoid a lot of numbers and stuff like that, but when but you do it, you know responsibly where it's it makes sense. It's not just this jumbled mess of of of it's like it, it's presented in a way that that makes sense in the real world.
Speaker 1:So I uh, well, we play a game right and like here's what drives me nuts, and you know this right when you were playing high level golf back in the 80s and correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part you guys were all hitting it into the greens on par fours and par fives from the same place. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, so the reasoning that I have been given from multiple people that I've asked about this very topic is that the reason that all the guys back in the day pre-urthane golf ball we'll call it so pre 2000, the reason that for the most part everybody hit it to the same place was because at about 169 mile an hour ball speed, what we found is that the ballada golf ball became incredibly erratic after that and you couldn't really predict what it was going to do. So everybody was kind of beholden to 169 miles an hour. That's all you could put into the ball, because if you did any more than that the things spun like crazy and we couldn't control it. So that's where I think people don't realize how much golf has changed, because now we're not limited to this 169 number. We've got guys out there on tour that put up 200 mile an hour ball speed during a golf tournament. So it's like, okay, now we can't just like create a good looking golf swing that is suboptimal yet produces 169.
Speaker 1:So it's okay, now we've got to produce everything we can produce If we're really talking about competing and competitive and trying to gain an advantage. We got to hit it off the tee as far as we can. So we got to optimize everything, and if we're not using our body correctly to achieve that, we're going to have failure in the body which looks like injury. And that's where I think what we're able to do now is prevent injury, because I don't think that we're telling people all that different information from what we used to say. I just think now when we say it, we know that it works for that player, and now you don't go out and do the wrong movement for a month trying to dig it out of the dirt, only to wind up with an injury.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. With the technology Now, you're able to find the right answers without having to trial and error and hurting your body Like if we go out right and, like you, say, hey Mike, can you watch me hit a few balls on the range?
Speaker 1:I feel pretty confident at doing that. But I'm going to be honest with you. If, like, pete Cowan is standing right next to me and, like you go, hey guys, what do you think? I'm not going to say a word and I'm going to let Pete Cowan talk. And here's why, when it comes down to who's got the best set of eyes, I really can't compete because in my mind, a golf coach's eyes really have to be trained like very, very, very, very well. And that means that you got to see a whole lot of golf swings to learn, kind of, how to see it. So there's nobody who's better at that, in my opinion, than Pete Cowan. He's been doing it the longest, he's been doing it at a high level, he's got probably the most major championships one of any coach as far as I know. So I would default to Pete. But if you said, hey guys, I'm going to come out and see you both at your place, I'll go ahead and step up, man, like I'm good, because if you're going to, let me bring all my toys to the table.
Speaker 1:Look, we can debate application and how to get somebody to do something all day long, because humans are really messy and it's always hard to figure out what gets somebody to do something. But from a diagnostic perspective, I got it Like we can't really met. Like I'm reading data now I'm not forming opinions based off what I think, I'm literally just connecting. And that's where I think it's gotten really good man, and that's where I think that, like this next generation of golf or I think that's why they're showing up so much more refined in a better place, because they know who they are, they know what they do and they just go out there and do them. And I think it used to take us a long time to figure that out out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good point. It used to be nobody won on the tour before 30 years old. A few did.
Speaker 1:But you know, you're not going to make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now they come out ready to win 20 years old, so it's definitely changed. But I like what you're saying about your method and your way of looking at it. Numbers really don't lie. I kind of play golf by feel and Of course you do, but yeah, with your data to be able to make it eliminates the need to go out there and beat your head in the ground trying to figure it out. If the answers are there, so that's pretty great.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have a conversation briefly, but I look at guys like you as massive opportunities, because I'm looking at you through a camera and, as good as the camera is, it's still not showing me everything, but I can still see the intensity behind your eyes, just like I saw that same intensity when we were talking down at the PGA show. And you're still a competitor and the problem for you is that you're Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're 51. Is that correct? That's correct, okay. So, 51 years of age, you have two amazing kids, you have an amazing wife and, generally man, you've got other interests in life outside of golf.
Speaker 1:So I really believe that, by using the technology, I can quantify those feelings. So it's like, hey, you come in. And it's like, hey, I got an hour. Man, I got to go pick the kids up later. We're doing surfing later, it's going to be sweet and I don't have time for this all day. So what can we get done in an hour?
Speaker 1:And I'm like, well, hey, we need to get these four numbers between these ranges and if you can do that, we're good today. And it's like, okay, cool. Like yeah, I got that. I feel that. And like now, all of a sudden, like we quantify your feelings, you know what to chase and as soon as you have it, okay, man, you're 51. I don't need you putting the wear and tear on yourself and, more importantly, I need you going out and enjoying your life, because that's when you're always going to play your best golf. So that's where I think it gets good. And I can also keep you from getting hurt, because I can promise golfers what hurts them the most is their golf swing, and that's relatively concerning, given the fact that a golf club only weighs 13 ounces.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mean what? And I've tried to to make changes at 50 years old, even small changes, and I find that I can't. I can barely hit the ball when I do that. I'm curious with with you, like when you say, try to reach these numbers, you get to those numbers however you want. Right, it's not. I mean, for example, my people always tell me my, my left wrist is, is copped. You know, everybody else is, I mean, crazy with people with their left hand. Yeah, and I've always played from here and whether it's right or wrong, I mean I kind of know where it's going and I've had had people you know good intentions, say now you got to at least be flat here, and I honestly can't. I wouldn't break 90 if I did that.
Speaker 1:Well, you absolutely cannot break 90 doing that, and I've I've seen a couple of your golf swings. So I think that if we put you on force plates, we would see that your vertical force is really late. You don't get it to happen and that's why you've always had a hard time getting what feels like left at finish Right.
Speaker 1:And for you that's always been a big struggle, but that matches the era that you grew up in and what we were trying to accomplish with a golf club, which was keep it out of the air instead of get it in the air. So, generally speaking, we don't have enough breaking force with you to act on the kick point of the shaft to get the loft back on the face. So you more than likely are going extension at the top Sorry, kind of like that extension at the top and then you kind of more or less back out of it and that's how you hold your face open so that you don't hit it left, go and left. So that's what I would kind of think of, given what I know about you a little bit and from your swing and honestly, I think where your back issues come from is what's happened over the years is that golf pros have been given technology without any training. So everybody got a camera right. You remember this.
Speaker 1:We all got our little yellow briefcases, our JC videos and like, ran out to the driving range and started filming everybody and we started drawing a line on people's spines and set up right, right down their back. Well, the spine has a dent or a curve in it and it's not straight. But everybody was taught to keep that back straight. The thing is is when you do that, you actually lock out the facet joints in your low back. So now your spine can't extend and that's why you can't create any depth. So if I all of a sudden flatten your left wrist and don't give you more thoracic rotation, you have zero depth into your point. Man, you're probably hitting it off the hosel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I just can't square up the face at impact. I know how to square it up, you know from here. But um, but, yeah, like.
Speaker 1:Here's what we try to do, right, and this is what you do in a fitting. I imagine is like, at the end of the day, man, I try to just show you how to get to that position because you can get there. Like I'm not saying you could get there consistently right now, but like, with the right queuing and getting in different positions, we can get you into some of these new positions and let you try them out. And then we have you like hit a couple shots from there, and then we can look at the data and go, hey, like does that seem doable? And the answer, hopefully, is yes, because it should be. And then it's like, okay, well, look at what this does relative to what your old thing does.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, here's what our ceiling looks like now and here's what our floor looks like now. And basically, what I have to do with guys like you is just keep you improving by 0.0000001% Every single day, because what golfers tend to not realize is that if you continue to improve over a long enough period of time, you eventually will wind up on the PGA tour. The problem is that most people stop improving somewhere around, depending on, like, what levels of golf they play at most, people really kind of struggle to develop much past 18 if they play before that and then if they pick it up later they really struggle to develop much past 40. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes sense. I feel like I've had a hard time making any changes. Well, probably before 40, but you know, I just kind of feel like I'm stuck with what I got and it does work, but I know there's there's a better way to do it, Really hoping that we revisit this conversation because I'm hoping at some point we do get this together.
Speaker 1:And I would be curious, man, because I don't think you're done and I love your story. I find it very inspirational. You know, I don't think that you know Gary Woodland right now is getting nearly enough praise for coming back so quickly after a brain surgery. Tiger, I think, just actually quoted that and they kind of asked Tiger why it was Gary that got the sponsors exemption into the Genesis this week and I think he said something to the effect of I don't think people realized like how hard it is to come back from a brain surgery and Gary's out here relatively quick and JB was out there in a very similar situation. You, I mean, when you start talking about the noggin man like that, that's that makes it tough to play golf when the noggin's not feeling right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's true, and back then it was a whole different at a craniotomy. So they basically took, took me apart and I think it's different now. It's a little less invasive, but right, but still, it's yeah for him to be back competing again. It seems like it's only been six months or I don't even know, but it hasn't been that long right.
Speaker 1:Like I think it's been like maybe a year ish, but not more than that. I mean it's incredible, I mean it's so. I mean I just cannot imagine like not being 100% and being on the tour, because and nobody's ever 100% Right Like I know that I saw your head start like kind of nod and like, yeah, man, I wish I was 100% when I was playing on the tour, but like, right, nobody's at 100%. But if you're out there and you know and let's be honest, like people know where they fit on tour right, if you know like you're a guy trying to make cuts out there and you're feeling like 85% out there on Thursday afternoon, I mean, dude, that's got to be pretty defeating, I would have to imagine, because you know you got to play pretty well to make that cut.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a hard enough game when you're, when you're healthy, so when you're fighting something which I think most of us are much of the time. But but yeah, it's, it's, and that's where I think a lot of the training that people are doing now has been is help them be at a higher level more consistently. I sometimes wonder about the weightlifting and the bulking up. I don't really see. I mean, you probably know, well, definitely know more than I do about that, but I just here's what I'll say about that.
Speaker 1:There's what, generally speaking, in my opinion and I'm not speaking for anybody other than me and what I've seen and measured most swing it faster of club head speed than what they get in output in terms of ball speed. So most people actually have way more in the tank than they think they do, even when they hit one on the middle, and they think that because they hit it on the middle, that's as good as it can be. Like they actually could still do better than that because of launch conditions and things like that. Right? So like I truly believe that where people go wrong is simply trying to put more gas into the tank, because they already have all the gas in the world but they don't have any break to get it to work. Does that make sense? Yes, so at the end of the day, like I think that having the DPTs and the PTs and all these strength and wellness and stretching coaches on tours a wonderful thing. They're looking at it from their lens, which is I have a human being who's an athlete. His job is to perform at a very, very high level, as close to optimal as possible. Okay, do that, but there's no real consideration by that person into what skills does he actually have to accomplish today as a golfer, right?
Speaker 1:So like, let's say that you have a guy that you stretch out really, really well in the morning and he goes out there, and because he's really stretched out and feeling good, he goes out there and he hits his driver to an apex of 120 feet, okay. But then you got a guy that you go out there and you don't stretch him out the same way. You do something a little bit different. And now, because you don't have a spine feeling as good and stretched, now he apexes the driver at 100 feet. Okay, well, as long as he's not getting hurt at 100 feet.
Speaker 1:That would seem like a pretty good strategy for like, hey, we're playing in the British open and we don't want to hit our driver way up in the air, right, and I know that that's a really goofy example, but my point is is that these players have these incredibly large teams now and nobody on the team communicates with the other people on the team, generally speaking. And now it's like, yes, we're in, we're creating all this speed and all this force, but is it actually like helping the player accomplish their task and keeping them healthy? Or did we just give them more speed with no training, and now not only can they not find the fairway, but they also are getting hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and that's where I was playing in kind of the era when people were starting to build these entourages and when you got so many people chiming in, I don't know how, how you can play, but I mean people have obviously made it work. I know I could not function that way, you know, unless they were really everybody really was on the same page. So I was always amazed by, you know, people got to tee off, you know, and final round of a tournament, you got three people watching him and telling him what to do. I mean, at that point I feel like I'm kind of, I mean, I just got to go with what I got. There's no, no time to make any changes. But so I never really understood that. But, and being there.
Speaker 1:I like a lot of these guys need that support system right. Like I get that they've grown up in a different era and they're different psychologically than in their profile and their personality profile types than we were back in the day. But like when I'm standing there with a player before the final round, we're not talking golf swing. Like the only time I'm ever going to talk golf swing with them is if they turn around to me and they go hey, man, it kind of feels like this today is that still okay? And I'm like, yeah, man, that's totally fine. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like a little awareness goes a long way with you guys.
Speaker 1:Like you guys are super hyped up, you're super critically aware of everything in the environment and like that, like that's what I think that people sitting at home don't necessarily understand is that it feels completely different throughout the round to you because of pressure. Like I love Nick Dunlap talking about his legs going numb and he thought like he was going to fall down when he was hitting that puck because he couldn't feel his legs. Like that people don't realize what's going on in those moments for you guys in terms of the feels right and at the end of the day, we all play with feel. Because when you're standing there in the middle of you know, let's say 17 fairway, right, and you've got to like stand there and hit one to 10 to a tucked right left pen, you know all you have are your feelings. Man, you don't have a launch monitor, you don't have force plates, you don't have your coach. You know your caddy can maybe say a couple positive words to you, but at the end of the day you got to feel that shot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I've had that feeling where my hands I don't feel my hands and I mean I feel like I played pretty well under pressure but but yeah, there were times where I just like I don't know, it's like I'm going to hit the ball and it somehow it always kind of worked out decently. But yeah, it's weird what your body does. I like 16 at that at the Phoenix Open a couple of times. Just, you know about to hit that shot, just a simple eight iron or something, but just the weird feelings. You know you haven't missed a shot all day and you're like just just don't shank this. Or you know it's just weird the stuff that goes through your, your mind and your body.
Speaker 1:So yeah, but it's a trip right, man. I mean it's like and I think that that I think that's not. I get so frustrated man, because, like you get mislabeled. And when I, when I say you, I shouldn't put it all on your shoulders, but I feel like this retro golf scene let's call it right, like it gets mislabeled is trying to make golf simpler. And I don't think it's trying to make golf simpler. I think it's trying to focus on different aspects of the game, right, Instead of being so focused on hitting perfect golf shots and that's all that matters. There's people out there that are more in love with, like, hitting one in the woods and having to get it back into the position and having to try to score with seven clubs in the bag instead of 14. And you know, I think those people were way more focused on, maybe, the human skills when it comes to playing golf, versus this super technical kind of freak mode to where everybody's a gearhead and like.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's helped golf. It didn't help tennis. You know, like I don't know how it was when you were growing up, but I specifically remember, like my parents I didn't grow up wealthy but my parents played tennis nonetheless and like we would play on public courts and you literally could not find a tennis court to use anywhere. Like, you just could not do it. And this is in the late 80s, early 90s, right, you just couldn't find a tennis court open anywhere. And what happened? We went from wooden rackets right that were small to big, oversized titanium rackets that were crazy expensive. And now every single tennis court's been abandoned for the past 20 years and is only now being used because of pickleball.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. I mean I am. That's a good point about the game. It's not. It doesn't. It does the opposite of making it simpler. It makes it just so much more. You're right, you know guys, they hit it as far as they can wedge it up there, try to make the pot, where now you know you're having to deal with with miss hits, you know being able to play your miss hit and the strategy you're hitting, you're actually hitting mid irons into par fours, which is unheard of now, and tour golf, you know it's. So it's a good point. It makes it more fun, more complex, more way, more thought and and skill. I, you know, and, yeah, it's, it's what I, what I like to do. I don't not trying to sell anybody on it, I don't know, but I'm like man, like I've got a you know my bag right behind it one of them.
Speaker 1:But you know I've got three sets of irons. I kind of rotate between. I've got two sets of national customs that are made for me, and then I got a set of mirrors that I'm pretty fond of. I've got a set of 501s that I've been playing for a few years, but you know I'm playing, you know, a very traditional head, but then I'm playing arrow tech steel fiber shafts in them right, which are pretty darn good. So it's like I kind of bounce back and forth and I've got like mirror wedges but I've got stability shafts in them. And then, you know, I've got a modern driver, but like I'm, I have no problem putting that R nine super deep in play either, and that's probably what I'm going to do and I go to London here in a month or so because it's a low spend bomb baby, so like that works real well over there.
Speaker 2:But no, no, per semen you're not going to bring.
Speaker 1:If I can get some from you in time like that, that's really my big of course, those courses are definitely designed for to play per semen.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we need to get to get this.
Speaker 1:I don't tell the story very often because I don't think very many people would appreciate it, but you will. So I was over. I was very fortunate I got to go to the 150th Open Championship. People over here call the British Open but that's not correct the Open Championship over in at St Andrews in Scotland. It was incredible and I just had the trip of trips. I got so lucky and I ended up staying just a little like maybe 10 minutes outside of St Andrews and I stayed across the street from a golf course named St Michael's Golf Club. I have the scorecard right here. So St Michael's Golf Club over and St Andrews, scotland.
Speaker 1:And because it was the summer, it was staying light to like 11 o'clock at night and like normally for me, like you know, it's long days when you work on tour and you're getting there at like five in the morning, so you know if you can get out of there at six, seven o'clock at night, like you're going to bed, but it was light until like 1030. And I was like all right man, that's it. I'm going to go over there one night and play golf. Like I'm in Scotland, I have to play golf here. So I one night go across the street, walk over there. It's a very, very public golf course. Right, it's nothing fancy at all, it's very municipality style. And I go in and I said do you have any rental clubs? And she says I'm sorry, hon, we don't. And I said OK, would you have a lost? And found she says it's out back.
Speaker 1:So I found a ping rapture six iron with like a senior flex graphite shaft. I found a Taylor made rescue driving iron and I found a wedge that didn't have any markings on it but I wish it had also didn't have the grip, because the grip was the worst thing about it. And those are my three clubs. And they let me go out and play with three guys that were just showing up after work and whacking golf balls. And, dude, like these guys were not good golfers, they could not hit a golf ball to save their lives.
Speaker 1:But once we got within like a hundred and fifty yards of the green, dude, these guys start hitting these little punch runners and like all these crazy little shots and they get in the bunker and they hack it out and like, dude, these guys got game from one fifty. And and like, I'm out there playing with them, dude, with my three clubs and like we had a blast and like I tell people that story all the time, like oh man, that must have really sucked. And I have your golf clubs and I'm like it's better because I didn't. I had so much more fun like having to work shots and like you know what it was a blast yeah that's what golf is right.
Speaker 1:It's like just showing up and making friends and getting getting it done, and I think I shot 80 with three clubs, by the way, so yeah yeah, no, no driver to right no driver, no putter. Yeah, yeah with the wedge yeah, I like putting with wedges.
Speaker 1:I don't like putting with like the, the fairway woods or anything like that. And I hit all the tee shots with the rescue and this place, dude, if you remember the one fifty, if they were talking about how hard the ground was, all the gravitas because like it hadn't rained over there, so the place I was playing was even faster and it was like I mean, so you, I was hitting this rescue like 300 yards easy because I was just hammering it as low as I could and it would just run forever. So it was good time yeah that sounds fun.
Speaker 2:That's, I think, kind of why I like the half sets and just hitting shots. You know, it just makes. It makes it a lot more, a lot more thought goes into it, a lot more feel, and yeah, that sounds like a fun, fun round there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my goal for my goal for the pod dempsey persimmon setup is I'd love to have a driver, three within a five would. And the reason that I want both the three and the five is because you got to kind of learn, like, which time use which one of those right, like that's. That's kind of the persimmon game, like that's when fairway woods actually mattered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot of guys that play with half sets. They have me make them like a fairway sized head with about 11 or 12 degrees loft. So I can, you, can. You need just one, would you know? You can hit it off the team to it low and then it can also be a fairway would. And so it's yeah, you're only only have one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I played this driver. Yeah, but the old thing tie a sigh. Yeah, I played it because it got me an extra long club in the bag because I didn't hit it very far. So it got me an extra like driving iron that I could use because I couldn't hit my long irons far enough. And then I didn't need the three would because I could just rip this thing off the deck.
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah, I know that's, and now the heads are so big you can't really hit them up.
Speaker 1:The problem is is like you literally have to choke all the way up on it and then you literally have to teach yourself to take a divot with your driver because to your point they're so tall that the center of the mass is not sitting on the ground of the golf ball or the club. So you've got to figure out a way how to get that center of mass more down underneath the ball and with the modern drivers because they move the CG so far back and down Without forward shaffling- yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I know that's. That was a great. You know, with persimmon people would hit him, hit him off the fairway all the time. They're such a smaller head. It's a shot that was lost like about Florida golf actually is.
Speaker 1:I love the Bermuda fairway because you can just rip drivers off the fairway all day long, like the whole time we were down in Florida, like I don't think I hit my three would off the fairway once. I just like literally rip driver every time because it just kind of sits up on that Bermuda.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, I know it's not. That was a big part of my game growing up and it kind of disappeared with the, with the huge heads.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just. It's just heartening to watch these all these like driver off the deck videos on like Instagram and stuff, because it's like that used to be, just like you had to have that shot in the bag it was. It's not a fancy shot dude. I guess just a shot we all grew up having to have, because, I mean, most of us, like I, couldn't afford a three would, so I didn't have one, right, I was lucky to have the driver.
Speaker 2:Any kind of lie in the fairway.
Speaker 1:Everybody was hitting, hitting drivers but the now the rough like light rough you like. That was the time to hit the driver, because the ball feet up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, for sure, my last thing are you aware?
Speaker 1:I don't know if you've seen any of this Are you aware of any of like this urban golf movement stuff going on where, like people were playing golf in the streets?
Speaker 2:I've seen that? Yeah, I don't. I don't know much about it, but I do kind of a similar thing here in my neighborhood. I got a school across the street so I can hit up to a four iron. When the winds, the normal wind out of the northeast, I can hit up to about a four iron and and then I go to the beach and stuff. But I city that sounds sounds scary, hitting it with cars and windows and stuff.
Speaker 1:But so they play different balls. So, like the guys over in the UK are using like they call it I'm going to get this wrong I want to say they called it a squib a ball and it's some kind of it's. It's pretty springy, right, but it's not so springy that where it's like it just won't stop going once it bounces. You know what I mean. So what they're saying is that it tends to fly kind of soft, so it doesn't like have a penetrating flight like our, like our modern ball does. It kind of floats, so when it lands it tends not to like break windshields and stuff like that is what they're doing.
Speaker 1:But it's crazy and I think it's cool, because they're out there with like super old blades, like they're out there with the old spulting and you know what I mean like the McGregors, and they're out there with a bunch of old persimmon because, dude, that you're whacking it off concrete, you're not out there with your set of mirrors and I just dude. I think it really helps with the access problem. I think it Once again, another cool way for people to get into the game at a really low price point. Have some fun with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I tend to avoid cities, but I I'd like to try that sometime. I got to track down some of those balls.
Speaker 1:I'm going to talk to I'm going to talk to when I'm over in London here next month and one of the organizations over in Europe.
Speaker 1:They have like a World Cup and it's wild like you can. I think it's called the European Golf Union or Golf Urban Union, something like that you can look it up. But they have like literally like a World Cup and people come from every like, from all the countries, and they play and I mean it's it's really kind of like a beer fest meets golf kind of situation a little bit, but I mean it's wild, man, and once again people are having fun and not to get into a subject that we don't need to, but you know people want to blast. You know the live golf thing and I've been to two events and once again there's young people there having fun and I'm all for it, man, if it gets young people involved and it gets them outside and it gets them doing something to where they can express themselves and be competitive and learn you know some amazing things about themselves at the same time, I'm all for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't. I mean, I'm kind of a traditionalist and history you know, so I'm still having a little trouble with it. I don't, I don't blame anybody for playing it. I do it myself probably, but I just, you know, I I don't know how, in 30 years from now, if anybody will care who won the Las Vegas live event, but maybe that doesn't matter as long as people are springing people to the game and that's one thing I've really noticed is I talk about this a lot with parents, with the youngsters that I work with, but it's like we have this like real linkage to history like we do, that Young people don't.
Speaker 1:They're not really into antiques, they're not really into old stuff, they're not really like they think it's cool, but from like a commercial application, like they like a vintage edition you know what I mean like they don't actually like old thing and.
Speaker 1:I think to your point, man. I think it's heartbreaking because those records and those memories mean so much to us. But I think, by and large, man, I think a lot of that's going to go with our generation and I think that you know, it's not really about what people are going to remember 20 years from now. I think it's what do people think of you now? And unfortunately I don't necessarily agree with that way of thinking, but that does seem to be kind of the standard issue way of thinking right now, to where it's about fame and money and everybody's trying to get theirs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely different, different world that live, but it's. I got plenty of friends, I don't blame them. Looks like.
Speaker 1:Ever shown up here and offer me 600 million. If they do, I let you know how good my ethics are, but for right now, like I can say whatever, but you know it's just, it's I've. I've not made a million dollars in my life and I probably never will. But at the end of the day, you know $600 million is life changing money and you know I have a hard time Like thinking to myself that, as a provider and as a person that's married and has a family and those like you have the opportunity to like ensure that your family never wants for anything.
Speaker 1:And I think that would be a really hard thing to say no to.
Speaker 2:I agree. I mean, a lot of these guys think we're, we're pretty set anyway, so I guess how much is enough.
Speaker 1:but I, yeah, I agree, yeah, I mean unfortunately, I've never met a human being that told me they had too much money. So I don't think enough is ever. Enough is kind of the problem with money, apparently. Yeah yeah. So, man, this has been great. I really enjoyed it. Todd is an amazing person. I love the story, the tenacity, and what I really love is just, you know, an unwavering kind of sensibility and doing it for the reasons that he loves and not letting those reasons be changed by anybody else. So, todd, thank you very much for joining us. I really do appreciate it. Thanks, mike.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been great and, if you're interested, he's got a really cool. I think it almost looks curated, but it definitely isn't. It's just he's a cool guy. But if you go over to Todd's Instagram page Todd Dempsey golf you can check out some of the amazing work that he does with the persimmons. I highly recommend you get one. I will definitely be playing one in the very near future, for sure, and hopefully playing right alongside Todd as well. So thanks so much for listening this episode. Make sure to download and subscribe wherever you get your podcast and, as always, until next time, keep grinding.