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The Measured Golf Podcast
With so many amazing things happening in the Measured Golf Community, we have decided to start a podcast to discuss all of the amazing things that we are seeing have a positive impact on our athletes. Whether it be Ground Reaction Forces, Golf Biomechanics, or strategies for making the most out of your limited practice time, we hope that this podcast becomes a resource for you to finally become the player you know you can be!
Video of the podcast can be found by visiting our Measured Golf YouTube page.
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To learn more, or to visit the Measured Golf facility in person, please, find us on the web at measuredgolf.com.
The Measured Golf Podcast
Unlocking Great Golf Course Design: Insights with Mike DeVries
Can terrain transform a good golf course into a great one? Join us as we unravel this mystery with the acclaimed golf course architect Mike DeVries. Mike brings his profound expertise to the table, discussing "reactionary architecture" and how the unique characteristics of sites from St. Andrews to mountainous terrains influence the design process. We explore how creating enjoyable yet challenging courses involves understanding a golf course's nuances, often requiring close collaboration with superintendents.
Embark on a journey to breathtaking golf destinations such as Cape Wickham and Arcadia Bluffs. Discover the artistic challenges of designing coastal courses that harmonize with their natural surroundings and the emotional impact of these destinations on golfers. We also delve into the dynamics between private and public courses, celebrating notable restoration projects and the vibrant golfing community in Michigan. Mike draws compelling parallels between golf course design and sculpture, emphasizing the collaborative spirit needed to honor the land and enhance the game. Tune in to this engaging episode filled with expert insights and inspiring stories from the world of golf course design.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast. It's a new season with new guests and we are taking a slightly different approach on this episode and getting a little bit outside the world of golf equipment, instruction and maybe how we think about playing the game. But in the spirit of how we play the game, we've got somebody on here to maybe help us better understand what the task is. Mike DeVries, Michigan man the pride of Michigan, I think actually has decided to join us on the podcast and help the layman understand what makes a great hole of golf other than what score you made on it. So, without further ado, we're very, very fortunate to have Mike DeVries. Mike, how are you doing this morning? Great to see you, buddy.
Speaker 2:Great yeah, thanks for having me look forward to this. Um, it's always always fun to learn about, uh, another area of the golf industry or to impart knowledge, and, um, that's always a good day learning something new yeah, well, I think you uh, you gave me a good segue there without trying but impart knowledge.
Speaker 1:I think that that is something that our industry sometimes misses just a little bit, and we were talking just before. We actually have tried this a couple of times so far and we've had some Internet issues, but during the Internet issues and swearing, we actually kind of talked a little bit. Wearing, we actually kind of talked a little bit. And something that I think is really cool, mike, about yourself, is the story that you really I can't find anything about you that doesn't talk about you growing up at Crystal Downs and playing golf with your grandfather, and I think a lot of people your age or my age came to the game through our grandfathers teaching us how to take our hats off and repair ball marks and rake bunkers and like there was knowledge that was passed on, and I think a lot of that knowledge is probably not being transferred the way it used to be, due to so many people learning from YouTube how to play golf, which is a different experience not wrong or just different.
Speaker 1:But what I think is crazy interesting is I don't think anybody really has ever passed on this information in terms of golf courses and what makes a great golf course to the masses. It's always been kind of a hush hush secret and I'm very interested to hear you kind of maybe expound upon a little bit of one level like what why don't we play golf in a cow pasture?
Speaker 1:right like there's a lot of land available there. Like, why don't you? Like, if somebody was to ask you that question from mars mike, why don't we just play golf in cow pastures? What would be your answer? There's too many patties in the way. Oh, that's true, right, but it'd be boring, right, like nobody would come right but it'd be, it, wouldn't?
Speaker 2:you know that? I think the key thing is to think about um, sometimes it's not only like, okay, this is how you're supposed to play the golf hole, but I I talk about it in the way that I I call it reactionary architecture, where we're reacting to what the site gives us and every site's different. You know, it's not, this is not a tennis court, it's not. It's not x by x, flat, with a three-foot net, and you know, you hit a ball over and you got fencing around it's. It's not the same every time. So all those properties are really really different. From a mountain course to a links course. Um, you think about st andrews. It's basically flat, but it's really being up and down here and there and when you have a flat piece of ground and you have a little bit of movement, you know, one foot or a foot and a half, two feet, that seems like a lot. That feels like a lot. You got a big mountainous course and you move two feet, it looks flat. So there's a big variety there and you have to adapt things to the golf course to try and create something interesting.
Speaker 2:And the key thing for me is that we want to find ways to engage golfers, because not every golfer is the same either. Right, your site's not the same, your player's not the same, they're not doing exactly the same thing. And so and as good as you know, the best players are, they try and do a particular shot to get to a particular position, to have the best shot to, you know, get closer to the pin, etc. But how many times do we actually execute that shot just perfectly to get to where we want? And so, whatever error we have on that shot, now we have to adjust and then figure out, well, what's what's my best opportunity for the next one? So we have to, we think about that like. The golfer has to adjust and we need to find a way to make them engaged.
Speaker 2:So if they miss their target and they land in a bunker or something, is that bunker engaging? Or does it say, hey, I have a very, very small chance of hitting the green, or it's like I have no chance, just get it out, you know? And then what's the ego of the golfer? Are they like, oh, no, I can do this. Yeah, no problem, you know, three, three shots later in the bunker, they're like screaming at themselves and, you know, dropping four bombs and everything. So I think you know that's the thing that's cool about it is how can you make golf continuously interesting? How do you make it where someone is trying to find the solution but that solution's individual for them? And, um, it happens a lot of times when we go to like an existing course and and you're, you know, I, there's a lot of times I've been to a place, never been to the golf course before. I'll walk the golf course in the morning, usually like with the superintendent, because they know everything that's kind of going on on the golf course just from a. Um, you know anatomy basis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like you know, hey, there's piping here, there's just that here, stuff like that, and they they get, um, you know, they have the opportunity to tell me things that you know, give me answers about certain questions, and then we'll go into a meeting at noon and some I'll say something about the left side of the seventh hole or the right side of the 15 or, and there's invariably someone who's been there their entire life and they'll be like what are you talking about? Because they're not looking at what I'm looking at.
Speaker 1:You know, right, and that bunker or feature or whatever maybe doesn't apply to them, or very infrequently, right but so that's really interesting though, because, like you kind of have been dancing around it, right, but it's you're trying to make something that's challenging for somebody who's a skilled golfer Right and an interesting right Engaging, like. If it's not engaging, like a good player gets bored pretty quick, like it doesn't matter the golf course, so it's got to be able to be played in different ways. It's got to be engaging, it's got to be challenging. But then if Mrs Haverkamp comes out to play golf you know what I mean. If Mrs Haverkamp comes out to play golf, you know what I mean. Like she's got to still be able to get it around the golf course in a way that works for her but isn't so hard to, where she never wants to play golf again.
Speaker 1:So I mean it's it's kind of an interesting challenge, I think, for the architect to create that because, like you said also, you know that's easy to do in a CAD program. Like you can just make random holes all day long that are fun and interesting and exciting. But if you take that CAD rendering out to a site and the site it doesn't fit, you know that's not going to work most of the time. The only time I think something like that maybe that I'm aware of anyway has happened is maybe like a whistling straights to where it seems like that thing was just dead as a, as a doorknob, flat right, and they just said, hey, this is what we want and they built it. So I mean like it's kind yeah, that's well.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to bring that up because, um, because you know that was one of Pete Dye's, you know great works and stuff and they've held all these championships and you know it's a very successful resort and all that. And there there's, you know, this whistling strays Irish course and then the two courses that black wolf run, um, that are all really part of the same. They're not immediately next to each other but they're very close in proximity. So you know it's it's a four course um resort really essentially, and um Pete resort really essentially. And um Pete, you know he, he was the master of, you know, being on site and doing stuff and waving his arms and changing things. So he had a concept. But then he's like we need more dirt, just keep bringing the trucks, I'll tell you when to stop. So so um he, yeah, he, you know that's um.
Speaker 2:I never worked for pete and I only met him. You know, briefly, um didn't really spend time with him or learn about what he did, but you know he was on equipment. He was out there with boots on the ground every day. He wasn't, you know, behind the desk just drawing something. Um, it was more about building it in the field and that's what um it in the field and that's what um bill coore, tom doke, bobby weed those guys learned and they've passed that on.
Speaker 1:You know I worked with with tom doke 35 years ago, so um, you know that sort of emphasis on building it in the field and adjusting things, because even really good topo maps, there's stuff in the in between those that you just don't quite see the thing that's that's crazy, right, and like this is like maybe whistling is a good example, right, because I would say that's like extreme architecture of a golf course, right, yeah, so like I think the thing that's so interesting is we were there for the rider cop, uh, and I've I mean I literally walked my butt off, man. I mean you know how that place is. It's, it's up and down, there's not a flat spot on it, and like you get to where you're, I don't know, 45, 50 yards away from the green. You're nowhere near where anybody's ever going to play golf, right.
Speaker 1:Like I mean Mrs Haverkamp might find that place every now and then, but I mean like you're legitimately not going to find that spot on the golf course and there's like all of this intricate like spider web, bunkering kind of stuff, and it doesn't look like anybody would have done that intentionally, but you know they did. And like it's so cool how there is just a very chaotic natural nature made this feel about a place that is more or less kind of completely manufactured. It's just it's mind-boggling for me that doesn't understand the field nearly as well as you do, to see things like that that appear so natural and we know that they're actually man-made. Like I really think it's a tip of the cap to how much better the architecture is getting and it's so much less Mickey Mouse now, I feel like and neighborhood like lot selling driven and it's really getting back into taking a piece of property and trying to like accentuate it versus try to create something net new that kind of overtakes the actual property, like it's really cool man.
Speaker 2:I think it's awesome property Like it's really cool, man, I think it's awesome, yeah, yeah. And there's certainly um development. Real estate development has driven a lot of things for a long time and, as in in certain situations, um, golf's a business and you got to figure out how to, you know, pay for the shaping and and the greenkeeping and all that sort of stuff. So it is sort of a two-edged sword sometimes. I grew up at Crystal Downs and it's one of the great places in the world and that was the real estate development.
Speaker 2:Walkley Ewing, the founder, got into development and he just remembers when he was a kid walking the eastern shore of Lake Michigan with his brother all along one summer. They spent like three or four weeks and they walked from Muskegon all the way up to Mackinac and he remembers these two farms on this hill and overlooking Crystal Lake and Lake Michigan, where Sleeping Bear, sand Dunes and the Manitou Islands are. And you know he went back there in the mid-20s and it's like, hmm, wow, this place would be great, I could sell homes here. And you think about the 16th hole. It sits inland and then there's a row of cottages that are on the edge of the bluff.
Speaker 2:Well, what if the golf hole had been there? How cool would that have been? You know it's a great hole already, but it could have been even cooler, right? So, um, you know who knows? I mean it's um, there, there's a purpose for all of it and every canvas is different. So you know we're lucky, we get to, we get to play in the dirt and see stuff evolve and, you know, make things better. And you know, hopefully, you know, long past, you know our time being here, there's going to be other people enjoying it. That's kind of a. That's a really cool thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really. That's what's cool, man, is. You know, I think something that's hard to do is to you know, last pass, you know when you pass away, right, like how do you have a legacy? And I think what's really cool is we. We were very fortunate we met at the 150th open, I believe, at the cdp slash sounder party, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, um, and luckily I I don't know what it is, I still think this is true you and David are related, david, adele, like you two are so comically like Americana. It's unreal. Like you guys just are exactly what you would think of. It's just very, very weird.
Speaker 1:But I remember talking to you and I just I've always had this admiration for like this purity of whatever it is you do. Like I don't care what you do, just I want you to try to be the best at it that you can. And like listening to you talk about holes of golf and golf course architecture and like there's, there's always kind of like this I don't feel like you just go, well, I could build you the coolest hole ever and show you this amazing thing, and like I'm not trying to disparage it, but I could give you shadow Creek, like I could do that. But I'd rather like take something that's there and tweak it a little bit and get you to think about it slightly different and make it more playable and enjoyable and get rid of all the crap in the way that doesn't make any sense. Like dude, that sounds to me like we're actually going back to playing golf again, like I mean, I just it's gotten.
Speaker 1:I've been very fortunate, been able to travel a bit and played more golf in the uk and honestly I I think golf in the uk is spectacular and sublime in so many ways, not just scotland.
Speaker 1:I think scotland's great.
Speaker 1:But then you go over to the uk where the addington is, which is a project that you're part of, and I mean like that that's totally different than Scotland but also very similar in ways and it's just.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting to me how golf courses, when you play these golf courses that kind of, are a little bit different and not so tucked into a neighborhood and whatnot, that there's like a feel of home, there's a feel of sustainability, there's a feel of the spirit of the game, maybe call it what you will, but like it's just, there's a very real golf experience and I know that you get that at the Addington, I know you get that at Kingsley, I'm sure you get that at Crystal Dam. It's just a different thing, man, and I think that what you guys are trying to do at cdp is just very interesting, because I don't think you guys are trying to make as many golf courses as you can. I think you're probably picking and choosing projects where you think you can make a difference, and that's just a lot different way of doing it yeah, I think it's um.
Speaker 2:You know I, I mean, I've been in golf my whole life. That's really all I've ever done and you know I've been um. You know, starting from. You know, just learning the game from my grandparents and my uncle and then working at, you know, in the bag room for fred, at crystal downs and then going to the grounds crew and you know, mowing greens and cutting cups and raking bunkers and doing all that kind of stuff and just evolving in the game and, finishing college and trying to figure out what I was going to do, did something else and figured out that wasn't my mission, went back into golf and you know, then met, then met Tom Doak and um worked with him for about two and a half plus years and and um and we didn't have another project and so it it ultimately ended up where you know.
Speaker 2:I've, you know, learned from a lot of different people in a lot of different ways about golf, from learning the swing from fred and working in the pro shop and how you know the pro shop works and what that atmosphere is, and you know how do you service people and how do you. You know it's just, it's a great thing about golf. Industry doesn't do that. It doesn't, it teaches us manners and and the way to do things properly and stuff like that. So if you're working in the bag room or you're a caddy, it's like hello, mr smith, nice to meet, like nice to meet you. And you know, you make a, you know a firm handshake, you look him in the eye, stuff like that. You don't get that in a lot of things nowadays. It's like where's my device? How do I come you know community? No, like communicate with some person directly, one-on-one, that's really good. Um, so there's all these things that that the industry does, um, and then have you been to augusta, mike?
Speaker 2:uh, uh, I haven't played it, but I've been to a practice round, you know, at the tournament and stuff like that. Okay, perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1:So here's something I want to throw this at you. I think people miss why Augusta is so great. And I'm not even, I'm not going to get into the golf course, I'm not even going to do that, right, okay. But I think that people totally miss why Augusta national is so great. I really do. And here's what I think, and I don't think I've said this before and I'm excited to actually get to say this, because I I think it's true and I haven't heard anybody else say it.
Speaker 1:You know the big sitting areas over by the merch tent, by the range over underneath all the trees where the telephones are and everything. It's a huge area, right. When is that area not packed? It's always packed. There's always people sitting there, right, there's always people around all the concessions sitting. They make a nice, they do a nice job of providing just enough seating to eat your pimento cheese and move on right, so like. There's never an abundance of seating, but there's always a seat when you need one.
Speaker 1:However, you have to ask somebody to sit at the table, because they're not all little two tops and four tops, they're big tables, right, and that's something that young people don't do anymore. You would never walk up to a crowded table and go hey, can we sit and join you? Very common in Europe, not so common in the United States. But then you sit down at a table with strangers and you don't have a phone to make a fake call with, you can't blow people off and dude.
Speaker 1:People hate silence like human beings. Of all the things they can't handle anymore is silence. And like you start talking and like that's the thing that makes Augusta great, is like it forces you to be a human again instead of trying to communicate through a phone all the time. I mean it's the thing that makes Augusta great, is like it forces you to be a human again instead of trying to communicate through a phone all the time. I mean it's magic. Like you feel so much better when you leave Augusta, probably because you feel like a human being again, because you've been talking to people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, communication it's an amazing thing, right, like you can't avoid that person. And it's like when you sit down in the plane and you're next to somebody, how's your day going? It might just be super brief, you know, and sometimes you sit there and you talk to the person for a half an hour, like you know it. Just you don't know. I mean, you're put into situations where you have to be a human again and that's a really good, yeah. And the thing that Augusta yeah, my brother was my brother, was my brother's, not a golfer, and and he had a friend that was going down to Augusta this is like 20 years ago and he calls me up. He goes, chuck's asked me to go down, you know, and I'm like what are you talking about? He goes the masters, you know, but it's, it's golf, it's your thing, and I'm like we'll go. You're going to, you know, like the best run event in the world. It is not just golf. No, I go, you can't have your phone. He's like I can't have my phone. What do you mean? I can't have my phone. I'm like can't have a phone on site, so can't do that. You know, you can't run, you can't. You know it's and like everything is in place, I'm telling you eat off of the bathroom floor.
Speaker 2:And you know he got back and he was like that was unbelievable. I couldn't. It was like it was just like you said. It was awesome, like I think I think they were using like toenail clippers to like trim, trim the grass. He's like you know all these superlatives. And then he's like and you know what the import beer was was only $3. I got the imported, you know. So it was like um, you know just everything is like super well done there and there's this um, there's this energy there that um imparts everything that's good about golf and you get to see these great players and hit great shots. We will talk about the golf course a little bit. You know the greens are phenomenal and you know they're hitting these shots that you know move like the second hole when the guy's hitting a forward in or something, and you know.
Speaker 1:When's the last time?
Speaker 2:you watched Augusta. Well, you know I'm going back a ways. I still like to live in the past. I still like to live in the past. You know they're hitting a longer shot in and it hits that front left and rolls all the way back to the right corner. I mean, that's just really cool, right? And you don't see that on the normal PGA telecast.
Speaker 1:No, it right, and you don't see that on the normal pga telecast.
Speaker 1:No, it's a different presentation of golf. For sure, and it's you know they do a really nice job. I think they've they've definitely done the best job of kind of keeping who they are at the core of what they are, while also trying to evolve. And you know it's it's golf. Golf doesn't evolve very quickly, uh, which is probably a good thing in a lot of cases, but you know, I, as as many things as Augusta does right, they seem to be finding a way to do more things right year over year, and it is. It's exactly like you said, if you, I, I'm very fortunate at Ben every year since 2019. And it's just on flipping real at how well run it is. You, you might be in a line, but the line never stops moving, you know. And, like you said, like the bat, you can't imagine how clean the bathrooms are. It's unreal.
Speaker 2:Like all day, every day, like perfectly spotless.
Speaker 1:It's unreal, um, but the thing that the golf course does is, I think, what Augusta does really well is. It kind of makes you just a little uncomfortable from the course perspective, and I think the thing that's so amazing is, of course, the design is great. The way it's presented is immaculate. Always it's truly phenomenal what they do at the ground level. But I think, personally, what makes augusta special is the fact that you have those tall pines and you basically just have nothing but shoots on the side of a mountain to catch the wind and like that's the thing that I think is really missed, maybe a little bit at augusta national is what makes 12 so hard is not the shot itself, it's the fact that you have 11 coming in, you have 13 coming in, they're both shoots straight downhill and then there's a wall behind 12 that they have to walk up to get to 15 t and all that wind converges and creates this cyclone right above race creek. Yeah, then the problem is is now all of a sudden like how does that golf ball hit? That kind of tornado is how it's going to work out, which is why tiger is always aiming at the left side of that green, because he knows that cyclone works this way and if he gets it into the left side of that cyclone, it's going to shoot it towards the middle of the green, versus hitting that cyclone head on, where it shoots it down into the Creek, like you see a lot of players do.
Speaker 1:So I mean it's just I think, like when I see that and I see that they know that the wind is being used as part of the like, that just seems like very smart design to me and it seems like one of those places to where there's not one single thing that hasn't been thought about, and it's with the sub air and everything Like. It's just the place is really dialed in and you don't get that same experience, like you said, at any other event in the world. It's unreal. I mean, I haven't been to Monaco. I've heard Monaco is pretty impressive, but it can't be as well run as the Augusta national golf tournament.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I it's. I haven't been to. I mean, I've been through Monaco, but not there for the race or anything like that.
Speaker 1:So all the beautiful people you know a lot of beautiful people, a lot of boats, a lot of money. Oh, yeah, yeah, but no it's?
Speaker 2:yeah, it is it. You know it's phenomenal and you know, being in the Northern Hemisphere here it's the beginning of the golf season really. You know being in Michigan and you know, if you have a long winter and it's still sort of dreary in early April, it's kind of like you're getting fired up because the Masters is on. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, it's the kickoff to golf season.
Speaker 2:You know, that was like sitting there and seeing the, you know Jack coming down the back nine, you know on Sunday, and you know, is he going to do it? Is he going to do it? Yeah, he's going to do it. You know, it was always an event, it was really cool.
Speaker 1:I mean it's cool. So I mean it's, it's just a. It's a, it's so cool how it's. It's kind of like you know, I live in ann arbor and you're a michigan guy too and if you live in michigan, like thanksgiving is a detroit lions holiday, right, like it just is living in michigan, um, and it's, it's kind of cool that michiganders have that tradition and it's, it's really cool. But, like to your point, you know Michigan has that thing, but like the whole world has Augusta national right, like that is basically the kickoff to golf season for the United States and for most of the people, uh, that are big diehard golfers. It's just to your point, man, it's, it's become this American tradition. I think that the tournament by and large, is more about families coming together than it is even about the tournament anymore, because so many people get together with their family to watch it, because they've done that from the beginning of you know, their life. So yeah, I just think it's mega cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, it is Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I do want to ask you about something because I do have a favorite golf course that I've played. I can't tell you why it's my favorite golf course, but Kingsley club, I think, is just something that's really not what you would ever expect the golf course to be and it's just really a cool property, you know it's. It just really hits at a lot of things that I hold near and dear to my heart because I am very much a public golfer. So I know that you've shared that you grew up at Crystal Downs and I'm sure that I just can't even imagine what that would be like Because to your point, you're around excellence all the time and that just becomes the standard quota. But I actually come from more of a public background and like Kingsley club, even though it was a private club, makes you feel like it doesn't matter, like if you can get on the property here's the golf course and can you do it. And man, I really like that.
Speaker 1:I think it's so cool, the nuts and bolts, like just this is a golfer's dream and I'm just really curious to kind of maybe have you share a little bit about how I'm sure that had to be. Wild man, like you, you're a Michigan guy, you get this phone call like, hey, we want to do this mega. I'm sure it sounded pretty mega cool from the jump or you wouldn't have been on board. But like, just like not necessarily talking about what you did at the club at first, but maybe talking about like getting the phone call and what that was like and kind of what your initial thoughts were and maybe maybe what your original vision for this project was and maybe a change. So I just kind of would be interested to hear a little bit about that, because that had to be kind of a cool moment in your career. If I had to guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so I'd done Pilgrims run north of grand rapids, um, and that was a really unusual project, um, because there were six guys that quote, you know, co-designed three holes a piece and they were involved in various ways. Some of them were, you know, casual golfers, some of them were really hardcore golfers and they all worked for mr van campen, um, which is the van campen mutual funds, and they had this big property and they, um, they said, well, let's build this golf course, you know, and it'd be for us and clients and people that come in, and you know, and it would be a cool exercise. That's what mr van campen, you know, sort of looked at it as, and um, so that was really very different. And then, um, back to fred muller, my old boss at crystal downs um, he uh was friends with art preston, who was one of the members of the downs, and knew, uh, ed walker, who's a business associate of of arts. They had done, they were oil and gas exploration guys here in michigan, um, down and down in texas, etc. And all that. So they had known each other for a number of years and they're both big golfers and they wanted to, you know, develop their own club.
Speaker 2:And so, um, fred said, hey, I, you know, I want you to meet. You know, ed walker, and you know why don't you to meet. You know Ed Walker, and you know why don't you come over. And we literally, like, got a bottle of wine out and you know, and, and Ed sort of basically said, you know, hey, we want to build this great golf course. You know, we're not worried, we don't want to do development, we don't want to do any of that, we want to build a great course.
Speaker 2:And, um, you know, I found this piece of land. I don't know if this is the land that's going to work, and if it's not, we'll find the right piece of land. But so that's kind of how the whole thing started. And philosophically, you know, I didn't, I didn't know Ed. So you know, and Fred's vouching for me, he's known me for 15 years or something at that time and you know that was a big, you know it was a big commitment for him and for Ed and Art to. You know, put that in my hands and you know, give them credit. They let me do what I needed to do and they were involved, but they weren't saying, oh, we should have a bunker here and a bunker there or whatever and all that they were more about. You know they were buying into the whole thing and that the sort of the golf course evolved as we got to know the land better and what it could be and how should it play.
Speaker 2:And, um, you know, we really you know they love irish golf and you know british isles golf where the ball is running and all that. And so the way to do that is to do it with fescue, and fescue grows great northern michigan so and we have amazing soils there, glacial till that just drains freely. So, um, we also got. So you know they committed to kind of doing that and if that wasn't going to end up being the way they wanted, we could always overseed bent grass in there and you know have the typical bent grass fairway and stuff like that. So, um, you know that it was the decision to move things sort of in that direction. Keep that and to establish those types of things, did you like?
Speaker 1:in this meeting, Like I'm just curious, Like so there was a point where you kind of were probably told OK, it's your project, right. Like you just walk out to your car after that and just go, holy shit. Or like, how does, like, how do you I mean, the scope of one of these golf courses, man, like I just sit there and, once again, I'm not trained in this field, so maybe that's why it seems so overwhelming to me. But it would just seem to me like if I was you and they were like hey, man, we believe in you, we're going to buy in, we're going to do this thing that you want to do on this land, like that would just seem like this monumental undertaking for somebody like yourself. That's kind of more or less the point, man, to start this thing. You know what I mean. It's just holy crap, that's got to be wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it wasn't quite that definitive, it wasn't that simple, Like, oh, you've got the job, bing, bing. It's like, okay, we're going to go with you and we're gonna figure this out and and. But you know, if we get six months down the road and we can't figure out the problem, and this, this isn't the right piece of ground, we're gonna find the right piece of ground, you know. So, yeah, there was that commitment and that was, like you know, wholeheartedly, I could, you know, go into it and like this is, it's 25 minutes max from my house, so you know that isn't going to happen again.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, man, that's pretty rare, I would think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm either like right next to home or I'm halfway around the world in Tasmania so, which is literally halfway around the world from where I'm at. So so you, you know it is interesting how projects are always different. I mean, um, and I think it is, you know. Sometimes, you know, you find something and something clicks in really quickly, and sometimes it takes a while for it to sort of how was.
Speaker 1:So was kingsley the right piece of property from the jump was that, was that the course they, or the land that they that?
Speaker 2:was. That was just. Yeah, that was the property that ed ed had. He saw this is when he had ads in the paper he saw he saw it's 320 acres, um, you know, for sale and you know he and um his parents used me. His wife went down one Sunday afternoon after they saw it in the paper Sunday morning and like wow, this is pretty good and it had all been clear-cut like 15 years before. So it was a thicket. I mean there was a trail going through there but you couldn't see anything. You couldn't see in places you couldn't see 10 or 20 feet into the bush. I mean, it was just it was.
Speaker 1:So are you purely looking at like topography, like if it's covered right with trees and thicket and whatnot? Are you like when you're assessing a piece of property, are you kind of purely looking at topography and then kind of clearing from there, or are you kind of trying to clear where you think some holes would be and kind of looking at it more that way, all of that you're doing as much as you can anywhere.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, we had a, we had a topo map, um, and there's about 105 feet of elevation on here and the ground is, you know, it's heaving and moving and doing all different kinds of stuff, so you could get a sense of where things were. And, um, ed, you know the land was really cheap because they had sort of raped and pillaged the timber off of it. So you know you weren't going to get any money off of, you know, lumbering it or anything. So it was just kind of raw ground. And he said, well, if the golf course doesn't work here, you know this is great pheasant hunting. Because you know, you, if the golf course doesn't work here, you know this is great pheasant hunting, you know you're flushing a bird every 25 feet. So so you know he was looking at it kind of like that that you know it was an investment and and you know he could do something else with it maybe.
Speaker 1:So so, by the way, I hope we never hunt pheasants there, because that place is meant to be a golf course. Brother.
Speaker 2:Well, funny story. We were actually during construction and we were. Ed was giving some people a tour and I was. So he picked me up, I was on the dozer and and we're driving around he's showing the other land and it's it's hunting season, so and the dog's in his lab is in. You know, his hunting lab is in the car with us and he, he sees we're going around this trail and he sees him, pulls out the shotgun, bird's flush, bam, he hits one. The dog doesn't want to go chase it. So ed goes out there in his suit, takes the bird, throws it in the back and of course the birds it's dead. But you know, there's this reactionary thing and all of a sudden the bird goes in the back of the suburban. You know it just about freaks these guys right out. I was freaked out too, it was, it was hilarious. But he's like winston. You know winston's just sitting there. He, he's like I want to go chase it. You know he doesn't bird, I was, I. It was very humorous for me.
Speaker 1:So great time so so we got this amazing property at the Kingsley club. I mean you've got projects in Tasmania. I mean I'm not somebody in the know as much as other people would be, but it seems to me like all signs point to Cape Wickham links being maybe one of the better golf courses that you can actually play globally. Is that? Is that the reception that you guys are seeing down there? Cause it sure seems like that's the reception. It's getting online.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. So it's's. It's been open since 2015, um late 2015, and it's uh, it's always been in the. You know that they have golf australia and australian golf digest. Those are kind of like the australian versions of golf and golf mag. You know golf magazine and golf digest magazine, um, and so they've been in their you know their rankings, been in the top two, three, um ever since it really opened, um.
Speaker 2:The amazing thing is, a few months ago, australian golf digest came out with their new ranking. You know they do every other year and royal melbourne west is always the number one course. Only one time, I think in the last 40 years, did it. It was a really bad drought and they'd had a bunch of stuff going on or something was happening and it dropped to number two behind Kingston Heath, probably just because, you know there was a conditioning thing or something that happened. I don't know, but it came out this year and Wickham was number one, wow, so, yeah, that, no, that's what I said. I was like plates had sent me a, a text with the cover and, like you know, new number one, I'm like what that can't be. It's Royal Melbourne, so, um, so, and it was in. There was another Australian golf passport which is a podcast.
Speaker 2:These two guys do, scott and Matt, and they had the guy on there that wrote the article and he that guy has I can't remember his name offhand but he, um, he's written for both golf australia and australian golf digest for the last 20 plus years. Um, doing articles and you know, editor and things like that, and he was on there gave a very objective thing about how they do it and and royal melbourne didn't like it didn't necessarily drop in its standing. I mean, its scores were consistent. Wickham just jumped up this last time and they sort of explained it real, objectively. It was very interesting because these golf ratings are a very emotional thing for people. Oh, we're number one, we dropped three spots, now we're 13 instead of 10 or you know, and like it's in a fin, you know in a quintessimal little. You know data points is really what the difference is and if you think about courses and you just there's courses that are in the same class that you know that belong there and you could make the argument that I like this one better than that one, for whatever reason.
Speaker 2:Um, but Wickham is a, it's a very special place. It's ocean front dunes and you know it's a very diverse piece of property. Um, it's remote, yet it's only a 40 minute flight from Melbourne. It's not, you know, it's in the middle of the Bass Strait, on a small Island, but it is um, you can get there pretty easily. So, um, in Australia it's easier to get there than it is to get to Bandon. Bandon is difficult to get to.
Speaker 1:Bandon is difficult.
Speaker 2:Bandon is very tough. It's very worth it and everybody should go, because it's a phenomenal thing.
Speaker 1:So I just had my business partner, uh, in my facility, like reach out to me, and he was like, hey, man, we, uh we're overdue for a golf trip, where you want to go, and like he's had a really good year. Uh, on his side of the equation and he's like literally pick where you want to go and obviously the end the answer is bandon. Like I want to go to bandon. So he's like, all right, we'll call bandon, set it up and we'll go. So I called bandon. Dude you, I think until 2025 the I'm sorry, until the end of 2025 you can only book two days. Like that's the most you can get.
Speaker 1:You can only go out for two days and like go with your brains out, but like they ain't got room for you.
Speaker 1:So it's two days max and then you're done. And it's just like you look and it's hard. Right, like you said it very well earlier. Right, like it is a business, like we talk from a place of emotional, like beings and like passion, but at the end of the day it is a business. And you look at like how much a place like Bandon cost when you finally like total everything up. Look at like how much a place like band and cost when you, when you finally like total everything up and it's like man, it's, it's really really expensive and it's really really difficult to get to.
Speaker 1:But to your point, man, I mean we're seeing golf course architecture now to where it's really worth going to. You know, I think it's it's really amazing the experiences that you can have at some of these courses, like when I was, you know, looking up some stuff for this podcast so that I was a little more well-versed. You know, golf porn like that should be synonymous with CDP, cause if you go to CDP's website and start looking at the golf courses, you guys do. I mean you're talking about some of maybe the most beautiful places on the planet and and like the property that we're talking about, cape Wickham in Tasmania I mean, holy smokes, man. I mean it would be hard to stand there at sunset and not think you're looking at the prettiest thing in the world, I think so. I mean it's just a testament to how amazing golf is and what you guys are able to accentuate that nature already does. And that's where I think it's really different. The projects that we're talking about and what you guys are able to accentuate that nature already does. And that's where I think it's really different. The projects that we're talking about and what you do, it's more about letting the actual, the actual land shine than it is trying to make it something that it isn't.
Speaker 1:And I I think that's really cool, man Cause like you look at Cape Wickham and like I don't know what's great about that, I'm getting ready to ask you. But like you can tell that that is a golf course, that you're going to have a great time playing golf, like you can just tell it doesn't matter what you shoot, you're going to go out there, you're going to get challenged, you're going to hit some good shots, you're going to hit some shots that you don't get rewarded for. But man, that that's golf. But what I'm curious about is I get that feel. But now I want you to nuts and bolts this thing for me and tell me how or what Cape Wickham has from a architectural standpoint that makes it stand out Like what makes that place actually great. That's actually in the design that maybe we don't understand.
Speaker 2:Well, the sites, the sites really very different than any other sort of coastal site. Usually, when you think about Lynx, golf and the holes that are on the ocean, they have a very similar environmental sort of standpoint. So if you're at deal, it's you know there's a, there's an actual seawall, but you know it's low dunes and you know you're on the ocean like in that way, like we talked about saint andrews already, it's flat, you know, you don't really see the ocean. You get out to eden and you're like you get a little glimpse of the river eden and stuff, but you don't really have that much relationship. You're not right on the water like you are with the new or Jubilee when you get over there and stuff and you get a little glimpse of stuff you certainly do from, say, 1t, you look over from there, but you're not right on it. It's not that visceral.
Speaker 2:Pebble Beach is all you know. They're short cliffs really, you know. And then the little higher cliffs, but it's all cliffs and that's a very, that's a jagged edge which is a little different than a lot of places. Um, wickham has all of that, it's got. It's got, it's got big. You know 60 foot cliffs. Um, it's got victoria co know 60-foot cliffs. It's got Victoria Cove at the 18th hole, which is a sandy, you know, north-facing, so sun-receiving in the southern hemisphere, you know, it's like the Blue Lagoon down there, like you know. All you need is Brooke Shields down there.
Speaker 1:Okay, here you know we're in a movie set. I mean, your references are like really current. I really like your references, they're so current.
Speaker 2:There are some guys that will get that.
Speaker 1:Luckily I do, because I remember that movie very well for very obvious reasons.
Speaker 2:The 11th hole is like practically in the ocean. You know waves are just lapping up right right out. You're right on the shore and so it's very different in how you interact with the ocean there, because you're looking at it different ways or you're experiencing it from a different elevation, or viscerally, you know, you're feeling the heart, or however they say that in Scotland, you know that's kind of it's rolling in and this and that, and so you're experiencing it in so many different ways. And a lot of the best soils are actually away from the ocean. They're not necessarily right on the ocean. You know there's just great terrain there and the dunes and how they move and all that sort of stuff. So the diversity of it just in the landscape and how you are able to kind of traverse, and you know experience, that is one of the things I think that really makes it great.
Speaker 1:Is it because so here's a fun question on that point when you're talking about diversity right across the property, you know, I kind of have noticed there's like golf courses, maybe that kind of fit, that mold in my head a little bit when I'm kind of thinking back to some courses I've played. But it seems to me like when you play those types of courses it almost feels like it ends before you're ready for it to end. You know what I mean. Like, because you haven't been seeing the same thing time and time again. You're kind of like all right, we've seen this, we've seen this, all right time to go. All right, we've seen this, we've seen this, all right time to go. But like, is it one of those courses when you're out there to where it just kind of constantly feels like a net new experience because of the diversity?
Speaker 2:Yes, but not. I take it from that that, like you know, each experience is kind of one upping the last experience. That's not. That's not necessarily good golf, though Good golf is. There's a rhythm and flow to how. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um. So, at wickham, for instance, the first five holes are out on cape farewell, which is like this spit of land that like juts sort of north from where the clubhouse is, and then so one, two, three goes around that four comes back inland and there's this small lighthouse there, 157 feet adjacent to the golf course.
Speaker 1:What is it with michigan guys, and always like knowing where the nearest lighthouse is because we have more lighthouses than any other state in the country.
Speaker 2:We we're into lighthouses.
Speaker 1:I can tell 157 feet. You knew exactly.
Speaker 2:You know it's like nothing against. You know, down in Harbortown that's an iconic thing when they're finishing the tournament. There's the lighthouse right this thing dwarfs. I mean it's 157 feet, is a lot Like. That's no building on, it's just a tower. I mean it was built in 1861 and I mean I don't know how. You know, I mean they're, these are massive granite blocks that they, they quarried nearby and they had a little narrow gauge rail that like brought the blocks down there to build it. I mean it's like it's phenomenal from an engineering standpoint and they built it because there were all these wrecks there because of the Bass Strait and the winds and the rocks coming through there. And you know they had. There was a wreck there, 400 and some people died. Wow Thing only wrecked like a couple hundred yards from the shore.
Speaker 2:So it tells you how, like you know it was really dangerous. So, um, it's um, so like the diversity of the landscape is there that gives you all of these different opportunities to to sort, like, sometimes you're looking directly at the ocean, sometimes it's at your side, sometimes you're just right down at the level of the ocean, you know, and you've got waves, you know, rolling in on you. It's overwhelming. The first time I saw the site it's overwhelming. How you know powerful it is. And so the whole key to building the golf course is course is like well, you don't have to worry about the spectacle, right? You know it's gonna, people are gonna go. Holy shit, that's literally what they say the first time they stand there. Because it is, you know, it's that have you heard of the ride club.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you ever been there yeah I was fortunate and got to play it not that long ago and it's. Is it similar to that? Because I got the very. I got a very similar feeling to what you're saying right now, standing out there on the ride club and a very different way than what I understand, like topography and everything is very, very different, but like it is a overwhelmingly beautiful piece of property and you just kind of stand there for a minute and go, whoa that's a rise, scott, you know it's.
Speaker 2:It feels more intimate though. It's like, yes, and you know it's not, like there's nothing around Wickham except for the lighthouse, there's no housing. The closest house is like a couple of miles away. I mean, it's like, you know, it's in the middle of it's, it's at the edge of the world sort of, and and it feels that way. Right, yes, and it has that, but it's, you know, the focus for us was trying to figure out rhythm of how you experience the first few holes. You're right on this Cape Farewell, and then you go inland. Verse 6 through 9 and 10 brings you back to the ocean, 13 brings you back inland and then you finish 16, 17, 18 on the ocean. You can always see the ocean in some way or another. Sometimes it's a very, you know, distant kind of feel, but you have this expanse, just kind of how it sits out.
Speaker 2:So, um, trying to figure that out was really more about figuring out the gall and making sure that the golf was really good and um, a good friend of mine. He was out there early on the thing and this is a guy who plays the trans mississippi and you know he's a very good golfer. Um lives in america but you know is an englishman um spent over in the states for um, you know decades um, but you know he gets around and he understands different types of golf and and he went there. I didn't know he was going there, I just got this note from him. He said I knew it was going to be spectacular. I didn't know that golf was going to be that good, you know, which was like a high compliment because focus on it, like how can he play? And you know this guy is really good.
Speaker 2:So you know I think we hit all the marks there, which is, you know which is what you're trying to do, to and, um, how much dirt did you have to push? Um, not a lot, um, a lot of it's, um, you know, just incredible natural terrain and there's areas, like when you get into sand dunes, um, there are areas where you have to push things to make them just calmer, you know that, um to make it playable, because you just you run into some crazy stuff. The ninth hole, which is this super, it's a way it's it's got the highest point on the property. Actually, the t is sits up at the highest point and you're, you're as far away from the ocean as you possibly can be at that point, and so you can see the ocean in the distance, and it's this rollicking short par 5 that goes down. Now, if the wind's coming at you, you know it's three shots to get there If the wind's going forward.
Speaker 2:No, I've actually hit Three shots Me. I'm a short hitter, I'm a short hitter and I've actually hit a seven iron in once. Oh.
Speaker 1:I hate it.
Speaker 2:I like that. I think I made bogey when I did that, though.
Speaker 1:But you hit a seven iron in.
Speaker 2:You know, hey, you got to hit the shot, so I had a chance, I had a chance, I had a chance, you tell me so, um, um, but there was a big hollow in there that had sort of swirled out and we sort of had to, like, you know, we had to fill that in. It wasn't, it wasn't functional. Um, I don't think anybody would go out there and go, oh, that doesn't look like that belongs to you know. So you know, I have to literally go there and say, you know this, this, this was a 20 foot hole right here. You wouldn't, you wouldn't think of it that way, because it's going around like bigger dunes and stuff and and you know, that's, that's, that's the stuff. That's really cool. People think, oh, this is so natural. It's like, you know, I had to move a lot of dirt there, versus you know some other place where they go. Oh, I think I actually had to move a lot of dirt there versus you know some other place where they go. Oh, I think I see. No, that was exactly the way it was In Kingsley, we only moved about 30,000 yards of dirt total.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was all that, yeah, yeah, and that's incredible. That ridge was there and those mounds and like we just flattened them off, them off and like that's not dirt moving, that's just shaping. You know, that's just minor shaping. But the 16th hole, that green, is the most artificial green out there, because that was a, that was a big valley, just a little sort of gorge that went through there and we pushed all that dirt and, and you know, built it, built the green out of that so how, how many renditions of nine is there that you drew out and like before you designed that thing, like, how many times did you go?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, no, we missed it. We got to redo it again like it feels like nine might have taken a few tries at kingsley, the first green I built actually okay, I love. No. No, I'm not being no. No, I like the hole a lot. I don't know, it was one of the best holes out there. No, I'm just curious because it's a very interesting par three yeah very interesting well, it's a it's.
Speaker 2:It's the only green we built. It was one one time there. I mean that the concept of the hole was there and the landform was there, spitting out that little jut of land, um, and but the thing is is we were only thinking, really oriented from the left, the western tees, and then they're, you know the volcano t, which is the forward t fromes, and then they're, you know the volcano tee, which is the forward tee from the South, and then the further back, you know the 162 yard tee. You know that land was just there and we're like why don't we just build tees here? Cause it's a really different look and that's the only par three there's.
Speaker 2:You know, with five par threes too, that's the only par three that plays south to north in the orientation. So from a pure golf standpoint, you know, if I had to pick one and eliminate one, I would pick the south t orientation, because that's very different, and so that's going to play either with the wind or against the wind, basically with the way that our our normal northwest or southwest winds are. So you know you get something that you know you got to hit more club and it looks a lot more ferocious because you got the big valley in the middle of it. So it's like all carry to the green from there.
Speaker 1:So if you're standing on a piece of land, mike, and you're laying out holes. Okay, you're like kind of going out there doing your thing when you're sitting there thinking about this hole and you're like, well, I got some runway here and I could do a couple of different things and this could be a par four or par five, do you actually think about the wind and playing the hole and then kind of maybe let that kind of guide it a little bit as well? Or is it like, well, this looks like it should be a par four and we're going to make it a par four regardless of the win? Like, is there a lot of thought that goes into that kind of like we were talking about with Augusta National earlier, or is that just kind of a happy coincidence?
Speaker 2:a lot of times, well, um again, all of that they're very good.
Speaker 1:You should go into politics, mike.
Speaker 2:I'll vote for you don't want to do that, but, um, yeah, I mean, it depends. Um, you're trying to, more importantly than just that individual hole is how does that hole work with the hole before it, the hole after it, how? What's the rhythm? You're trying to, more importantly than just that individual hole is how does that hole work with the hole before it, the hole after it? What's the rhythm? It gets back again to the rhythm and flow of the golf course and if you don't have holes that connect together, well, if you have 17 marginal holes that don't connect to each other and you have one greatest hole in the world, you got a crappy golf course because it's not just the one hole. So, you know, cypress point isn't great because of 16, it's great because of all the other things that work together and, yeah, that's a highlight, for sure, but that's not the reason that you, the 16th hole isn't the only reason that it's a great golf course. No, so you think about there's.
Speaker 2:You know Donald Ross was very prolific and did you know in excess of 400 golf courses and some of them he spent a lot of time at Pinehurst. The course is up around. You know Boston and you know in Massachusetts, where he lived in the summer and you know he was in Pinehurst in the winter. So you know he had a lot of time on site with those. There's more detailing maybe in those things, but there are a lot of golf courses that he did. He got around and he imparted a lot of knowledge and wisdom on his people and some of the stuff. You know he didn't see much at all. It was a plan and they figured it out. But the interesting thing about a lot of donald ross course that I find is that there's this great balance to him and it's very playable and maybe it's not the most spectacular site but he makes great use of the land and there's this great balance about it. And you got to hit golf shots. Now they're not all Pinehurst number two, but it's always a pretty good test to golf.
Speaker 1:I think. So I agree 100%. I think Rosses are always. I always feel like you're going to play golf when you go to a Ross. You know what I mean. Like you're going to go out there. It's going to be challenging, there's going to be some easy holes there always seems to be that but like there's also going to be a couple of really difficult ones. And like it's you kind of know, and that's kind of the cool thing.
Speaker 1:Right Is like I think architects in a way all kind of put their, their thumbprint on things right and it's really cool and I'm sure it would be really awesome to know as much as you do because you've studied it so much. But like going back and kind of figuring out what those signatures are of these architects that have kind of become, you know, legends within the industry, but I mean that's that's what's really cool. Right is like you kind of know what to expect when you're going to a die versus a ross, a McKenzie, like it's. It's just cool how, like to your point, like it fits and it makes sense, but also, and not only, not only do the holes tie together, but like the portfolio kind of ties together too for the architect, and I always think that's kind of interesting as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there, that being said, there's a lot of things that they did that were different. You know they had different phases of their careers and stuff where, um, you can't just totally pigeonhole people into only one this style or that style, whether that's bunkers or greens or things like that. But I think when you were talking about, you know, okay, how do you put all those elements together and do that? And you know, sometimes it's a concerted effort that you're trying to do exactly this or that. Sometimes it just evolves. I think if you're just going through the process and you're there, good things happen. So sometimes that, you know, is purposeful. Sometimes it's like, well, if you're just doing good work, it's going to, it's going to work out and you're going to have a good product, and so that's a, that's a. You know that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a bit different as far as you know sort of. You know it's not black and white, there's a lot of gray, and how do you get it to where it's more black or more white or whatever? You know that's. You know that's the art of it. That's the thing of how do we meld into this, how do we get it to this position versus that position? Do we meld into this? How do we, how do we get it to this position versus that position and, um, how can we excite and engage every level of golfer with that? Because you know, mrs have a campus, she's engaged in a certain way. She's trying to make contact. Golly, I'm hot today.
Speaker 2:Oh boy. So you know, oh boy Versus. You know the really good player who's trying to hit. You know trying to hit a certain portion or get to a certain part of the green. So he has a chance at birdie or eagle or whatever, and those are really different.
Speaker 1:Those are really different needs or desires, but here's a fun question talking about exactly what you're talking about yeah 17 at the stadium course or, I'm sorry, 16 at the stadium course. What do you think good hole, bad hole, based off what we're talking about, like playability and people being able to be engaged, and do you think it's a good hole like the island green? What do you think?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, I mean, I think it's an experience, I'm not sure, or 17, the par 3, par 3, 17. Okay, they're different holes. I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing, good deal not enough coffee yet um, no, I think it's a good hole.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's a highlight of the deals. A lot of people are kind of like, oh, that's all the golf course is about and everything. Well, it's become this, it's become this thing, right, right. And should every golf course have an island green? No, shouldn't, you know I.
Speaker 2:You know I mean that, but you know that that was this accident, right, that that just evolved because there was all this really good sand there that they needed and they were just stealing sand. And Alice Dye said well, you know, there's your hole, so you know it sort of worked out. That was one of those things that just materialized and sort of you know happened and it happened to be like a great thing. So, you know, it's a short, it's a little nine iron wedge for these guys and but the tournament's on the line, there's 20 000 people around it. Um, it's maybe, you know, it's maybe not the greatest piece of architecture as far as like, oh, it's got this slope or that slope or whatever I mean, but it's, it's got everything in the right elements or the right amount and I think that the situation makes the whole.
Speaker 1:I don't think that the whole makes the situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you could put that. You know there are other island greens, other golf courses and they might not be at that point and they're not playing that tournament, which has a lot of meaning, and so that heightens it right, here's another fun question.
Speaker 1:So now we're just going to get you to talk about all the holes you didn't design? That's that's what we really do around here. We just disparage others.
Speaker 2:You're throwing me under the bus again. Thanks, here we go.
Speaker 1:I have a question, because I really think Arcadia bluffs the original one. I think it's a great golf course. I don't know that it's a nuts and bolts great golf course. I don't know that it's a nuts and bolts great golf course. But I think it's a great golf course because I've played it in weather. I've played it when it's calm. I've played it a couple of different ways. I've played it with people who aren't good.
Speaker 1:I've played it with people who are good and like at the end of the day, having a meal looking out on Lake Michigan from their clubhouse and being able to see the golf course in front of you again from their clubhouse, and being able to see the golf course in front of you, like that's special, like that's one of the best meals. Like the food's really not that great I didn't say that out loud but like that's a great meal just because of what? Is the scenery right? Like just got the chef fired, geez, yeah, shoot. But like I mean it's just.
Speaker 1:I think it's a great golf course because I think people go there. I think it's got one, of course, because I think people go there, I think it's got one of the most impressive pull-ups to a clubhouse you ever did want to see, because when you pull up, man, it feels special Just with it, overlooking the lake and everything the way it does. But I think people go there and have a great golf experience and I think that's what makes a great golf course. But I know a lot of people don't feel the same way as me and think Arcadia bluffs is not a great golf course at all. But I'm just curious as to what you're, and we're not trying to say it's bad or anything, but I'm just curious from an architectural standpoint, what do you think of Arcadia bluffs?
Speaker 2:Um, well, there there are. It is. It's an amazing experience, you know, because it's a spectacular vista and all that, and there's some really, really good holes there, and there's some holes there that I don't think are as good, just with, maybe, how they fit in. Or again, back to the rhythm and flow. You know, I would like to see more ebb and flow in the round. I would like to see more ebb and flow in the round, and I think I feel like they're like every hole is trying to one up the last hole, cause it is so spectacular, right, and to me that feels, um, you know that expectation that that hype is like you can't sustain that quite, you know.
Speaker 2:Um, you know golf, golf takes time and you have to be um, you have to be in the moment, but at the same time you have to be paid, you have to have a certain amount of patience with golf and you have to focus on things differently throughout that. Three to four hours, or whatever I prefer to play in like three hours, not four plus um, and so you know, for different people that that means different things. Um, I think it loses a little bit. Um, not that there's, it's not a great experience, but that just from a pure golf standpoint. I think there's some things there that don't fit together. Well, there's a bunch of different ways to route the golf, but this is one of the interesting things about it is that, because of the crossovers and things like that, like I'm always thinking about the original routing numbers, that I am about the where the routing numbers are now, because they ended up switching, like hole eight and I don't I can't exactly remember how it is.
Speaker 2:Um, now, that's kind of a cool thing because, like, if you have a private club and you have a bunch of different ways that you can play a number of holes, like from the clubhouse, you know you could you know if you're a member at this club or whatever you could. You know, let's say, you clubhouse, you know you could you know if you're a member at this club or whatever you could. You know, let's say, you can't, you know you don't have time for 18 holes. You can go out and you can buzz around and do this. Or it's late in the day and you know you've had a long day and you're just like, hey, I'd really need to just relax and chill out. I only got an hour and 15 minutes.
Speaker 2:I could play that four hole loop there, you, you know real easy, or that six-hole loop or something, yeah, yeah, and you know those things are cool and I think, like Arcadia has that at the Bluffs course, and then you contrast that with the South course, which is a really different feel and style, and they've. You know what Dana you know really did there is, he took this, he took this design style and this concept and this idea and he went 140% at it, which is cool and you know it plays, you know the conditioning's phenomenal. Jim Block does a great job there.
Speaker 1:I think that's some of the best course conditioning. I played it a year ago, south Course. I think it's some of the best course conditioning I've ever seen. I honestly say I honestly mean that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's like it's hard and pure, the ball's rolling, doing you know stuff I would never forget. It's like a really it's. It's very different. Those two, those, those two experiences are very different, which is super successful. They're building the third course now. They're building the 12-hole course right now.
Speaker 1:I think if you have a successful brand and I hate to say that, but if you have a successful brand like Bandon Dunes or Whistling Straits or Arcadia Bluffs or I don't know what you would call that group now, but Arcadia If you look at these established brands, dude, build as many golf courses as you can. Bandit's sitting there going. We can only give this guy in Michigan two days at a time. Well, we need to build more properties because he'll buy more than two days. You know, like I mean it makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's just my fear, my fear of it all really is like and maybe this is not a rational fear, but it's like I just hope we don't get to the point where we and I'm certainly not accusing CDP of this or any architect in particular of this, but it's just like it feels like it's at a race to a $10,000 green fee right now within the industry, like the first one to get to $10,000 around wins and like we're kind of building these monuments to try to create that and like, try to create this whole thing.
Speaker 1:And I'm just a little worried because the South course, um, for as an impressive property as it is, you kind of feel like do they know how good this place is, you know what I mean. Like it's kind of understated and it's not like this mega expensive, crazy ordeal and it's just, it's very, very, it's very good. But I am concerned, man, because, like you said, like you said, like you know, we're going to keep building golf courses, and if we already have the bluffs in the south, well, now we really got to build something spectacular. It's just like where is the? Where do we get to? Where we kind of lose our way.
Speaker 2:And it feels like it could go that way any moment right now, with the greens fees just going one way and one way only well, again, golf's a business, so you know, if there's demand, like you're, you know, uh, if you're going to, you know you're going to abandon and you can only get two days, they're going to charge you. Whatever they're going to charge you or whatever.
Speaker 1:Now, that being said, um what are you doing in detroit? What are you doing in detroit?
Speaker 2:that's have to be expensive. I mean, it can be moderate, you know, and it doesn't have to be like you know I was, my grandparents were members of crystal downs and I was fortunate to like live in the area and you'll be able to experience that and then start working there. But I think you know I played the nine hole, uh, or the um little you know nine hole executive, let's put. It was like it was par 32 or 32 or 34, yeah, anyway, frankfurt golf club, which no longer exists, unfortunately, which was like this great place because someone would drop me off, they'd, they'd pair me up with like other kids, some old couple, whatever. That was great, like you got nine holes here and you need to talk to somebody and you need to know how to mark your ball and not walk in their line and do all this stuff.
Speaker 2:That golf is more than just playing the game. You know, sure, and sometimes you know there wasn't anybody, I just played by myself. You know there wasn't anybody, I just played by myself. You know, yeah, and you know there are many times like my first birdie ever, I was playing solo by myself at Frankfurt Golf Club and it's sort of a blind drive up this hill and then there's a fence, because there's a road there and you have to hit across this little fence down and there's a pole there with number seven and so you can't actually, depending on where you're at, you can't actually see the green. You just, and I hit it there about four feet and made the putt. Now, it was my first birdie. Nobody witnessed it, it was still a birdie, you know so, but you know I have memories like that you know, I grew up on a par three.
Speaker 1:It was an 18 hole. Uh, it was like a par three course. It would be an executive course because I had two par fours but they were like 210 yards. They weren't really par fours but like all the par four. Yeah, but same thing, man, like you know, the driving range I worked at, which is how I got into the industry when I was like nine or 10. The driving range was right next door to this place, so like I could just kind of bounce back and forth and like, really, even as a young person 10, 11 years old you're having to more or less kind of deal with people and adults and figure out situations, and I think all that stuff is amazing and you learn so much from people just by having conversations. So you know, it's a great way to grow up.
Speaker 1:For sure, my concern isn't so much that, look, if you have something and people are willing to pay you what you ask for it, then it's worth that. And I'm not trying to say that it's not fair that these golf courses are expensive, because they have every right to be expensive and their overhead is insanely high. So I have no problem with that, as long as and I truly feel this this way if your greens fees for adults to go out and play are over 50, okay, during the week, I feel that kids should play for free. Like it's just like if you go to an event, if you're going to charge 18 dollars a beer, I don't care because I don't need a beer, but I might need need a water, and if you're charging $18 for the beer, I think we could give the water away for free. Mike, you know, like it's just like we need access and like that's what concerns me and like that's what really can makes me kind of like push back a little bit against the private club culture and all that Because I want young people and, like the story you just told, I want other people to have that same experience, because it opens you up to a whole world that otherwise you wouldn't be aware of, and like that's the amazing thing.
Speaker 1:Golf has this amazing transformative power for people that it allows you to do things I would never. Growing up, mike, I would have never told you I would own a business and do the things I'm doing and travel the world. But dude, it's all amazing and it's all because of golf and I just hope that more people get to have your story and my story. And it's a beautiful story because it's it's the story of maturity and growing up, and that's what golf kind of forces you to do if you choose to get better at it, cause eventually you just have to look in the mirror and go, hey, I'm not as good as I think I am. I need to work on these things and I'm either going to do that and get better or I'm not and I'm not going to get better.
Speaker 1:And like I kind of like the golf at the end of the day as a game. You can either play it or you can't. And I love the fact that, like, no matter how many access problems we have, if you can shoot 66, they can't keep you away, and I love that about the game. Like I love that there is a competitive part to it and it isn't all about, like, being able to get to the course. I love the fact that if you can play, you can play, and if you can play, then they can't stop you, and I think that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's. You know I work on a lot of private you know old golf courses and restoration and renovation type stuff and things like that and most of the time those are those are, you know, private private courses. Some of them are semi-private, things like that. But a lot of the new stuff I've done, you know Kingsley Club's the only one that's like purely a private golf course. Gray Walls is semi-private. I mean there's a big membership up there but you know you can pay to play there and stuff and it's still pretty reasonable. There it's 125 150 dollars, which is great, no problem.
Speaker 2:Really like a, like a very you mean you don't talk about you know crazy ground and like really cool stuff 60 foot granitefoot granite walls, 10 feet off of green. You'd think how does that work agronomically? Well, the sun angle and the morning light and the wind and everything. It works. Craig does an amazing job maintaining it. It's a very different experience. You can do that.
Speaker 2:The three golf courses around Grand Rapids are all public. I think the most expensive one is maybe $80 or something. And you can do that. But the three golf courses around Grand Rapids are all public. I think the most expensive one is maybe $80 or something. So perfect, yeah. So you know, good golf doesn't have to be super expensive. You can still have good golf if you've got good ground. And in Michigan we're fortunate because of the glaciers, you know they've churned up and there's a lot of sand and there's a lot of good drainage, and we have a lot of sand and there's a lot of good drainage and we have a lot of good clean water. So you know, we're, we're, we're really, you know, overly abundant in the things you need to create decent, decent golf courses. You just have to put a little time into it and you know and manage that and that you know, so that's a that's a very fortunate thing to have.
Speaker 1:So, before I run out of time, I am curious because I know you potentially have a project going on in Detroit. Detroit is my favorite city in the world. It's my adopted city, I love it to death and I'm very excited that you maybe have some news that's going to be very interesting to hear. So I would maybe love to hear a little bit that you can share with us about what maybe is going to happen in Detroit.
Speaker 2:Well, um, yeah, hopefully this is going to happen. There's a group that is um, that is looking to acquire a parcel and um and do it. It's not ready for you know, they've been, they've been trying to draw some interest and things like that, you know, through social media and all that kind of stuff and um, but yeah, but hopefully, and that's the sort of thing, it would be a thing that would have, um, some public play to it. They would have certain types of memberships that would, you know there would be sort of a core group that would. That, you know, would be there and, you know, have different events. It's a bit more of the UK or Australian type model of membership where members have a preference to times and things like that and they're sort of committed. They're like the core of the, but it also allows outside play. So there's a lot of different ways of doing that and that's a little, you know, the typical American one if it's a lot of different ways of doing that and that's a little, you know, the typical american one. If it's a private course, like nobody's allowed in unless you're with a guest or with a member with, you know, as a guest. Um, gray walls is a bit different, like that.
Speaker 2:You know they have this big membership. They have two golf courses there, um, and so you know they have. We call it the factory because that place does more golf than any other place I can ever imagine. And you know, late June they're at the far north and west end of the eastern time zone they're parking golf carts at quarter to 11 at night, I believe it, because they've done like the men's league. They've done 200 rounds after 5 o'clock Because everyone works the full day, they go out and do their men's league and like it's just a zoo, it's just like, and so, um, you know we joke about it. We call it the factory. How's the factory doing? It's like good, full sheet today again. So, um, you know, which is awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:People are, people are playing and they love their golf and they get out and you know they're the UP is. You know it's a lot of a lot of people that love the outdoors, whether that's golf, biking, hunting, fishing, camping, you know, yeah, everything. I mean you know it's it's full on, so, yeah, it's, it's super fun.
Speaker 1:I mean you know it's, it's full on. So, yeah, it's, it's super fun. Well, that's awesome, man. I mean I didn't even get to gray walls. And I mean there's a multitude of properties that you've touched and been associated with that we haven't even talked about, and I mean that kind of speaks to. You know your commitment to your craft, and when I think of you, I definitely think of a craftsman, you know, and I mean that in a very sincere compliment kind of way, and I think of David the same way. Like, david is one of those guys that can put his hands on something to build you whatever you think of, and it doesn't matter whether it's metal, wood, whatever plastic, like the man can, can make things happen with his hands, and you're no different. You just happen to need a little assistance with a dozer. So, um, I'm a?
Speaker 2:I'm a sculptor, uh, using a 20,000 pound machine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's just super cool, man, and like there's a there's an artistic integrity.
Speaker 1:I would say, you know, to what you do, and I would say that David, uh, david, adele, also shares that artistic integrity and I think that a lot of that integrity stems from trying to do the right thing.
Speaker 1:And you know there's a humbleness, you know, to you and to David and to other people that share this, to where kind of what you've alluded to multiple times today, what you've alluded to multiple times today. Yes, like I would love to sit on that tee box and tell you that I dreamt the whole thing up and it just appeared, but in reality, like I did a lot less than you think I did, like I tweaked it a little, but like, and that just shows, like that, that you're not trying to make it about you, you're trying to do what's right for that hole and for that property and for that ownership group, and I just I think that's really refreshing because I think a lot of people go out to put their stamp on things and don't really care about the shareholders in that situation for the most part. So my hat's off, man. I think you really do that stuff well.
Speaker 2:Thanks, I appreciate that. I think you appreciate that. Um, I think you know, um, you talked, you know, at the beginning you talked about cdp and so clayton, the recent pot, mike clayton, who's in australia and played the european tour, for you know, 20 plus years and australia asian tours, for you know, in excess to 30 years, when they used to have, you know, they have season in Europe and they had a season back home in Australia and he got into golf architecture kind of by. He was writing about golf and he had two, two, two guys that were superintendents, really good superintendents, john and Bruce, that you know could execute his sort of concepts and things.
Speaker 2:Like Clates has been around golf his whole life, growing up, caddying and a great amateur player and professional and you know he's the philosopher and then Frank's in the Netherlands and Frank was a civil engineer and then he was in finance and you know he just just he wanted to do what he wanted to do and so he got into into golf and stuff and he grew up on an old, an old harry colt course and called einhoven, which is like amazing and nobody ever talks about it. It's really good and um, um, you know, when we came together about five years ago. There's this synergy there that we don't work on everything together but we, you know we talk a lot and you know sometimes we work on the same project together or all three of us do, but sometimes it's just like. You know, I need feedback and I need this. You know, and you get this philosophy that comes from three different sort of experiences in the game, but with the same end goal is how do we make the best experience, like on a golf course, the best golf? How do we, how do we make that unique and special for that group of people, that client or you know, or just honoring that land and what we do? And that's been the thing that's been the last couple of years when I've been back down in Tasmania. So I did Wickham 11 years ago, but Seven Mile Beach, which is right next to Hobart International Airport, literally 10 minutes away and 25 minutes to downtown Hobartart, which is a quarter million people or something in the area you know it's this again oceanfront dunes, amazing sort of thing and then doing that with clates, where I was there every day and clates was there for two or three days every other week.
Speaker 2:He's seeing stuff that I'm not, you know, when you see something every day, you kind of like you know like it does help, seeing it evolve. But you also, like when you, when you go away and you come back and something's changed and clay, so you know, see something else, and you know it was just a constant refinement to get to the peak of the mountain, like, okay, how do we make this better? How do we squeeze out another one percent? You know, you know we got an a. I don't, I'm not satisfied with a, I want an, a plus. So how do we, like you know, how do we move that up?
Speaker 2:And that was you know, that's really cool. That you know working with those guys and all our other associates and other people the superintendent that's on the site and the you know just the crew. You know some kid that's got a rake in his hand like this is how you got to rake it. This is, this is what we need to do, because this is affecting how that. You know how that seed gets dropped, et cetera, or whatever, and that's awesome. That's really is like you know, every day. That just makes every day. You know, the perfect day for me is waking up before the sun rises and getting out of dozer as the sun's coming up and then getting off the dozer when the sun's going down, that's like the ultimate day.
Speaker 1:I hear you, man.
Speaker 1:I just want to teach golf, I want to wake up and teach golf and teach golf, so I can't do it anymore. And I mean, like I just think it's because, you know, I like to think that I'm coming from a place of passion with what I do, I know that you're coming from a place of passion with what you do and I just think that's what's fun, man, like when I, when I try to pick guests for this podcast, it's not necessarily about name recognition or what someone's contribution is, it's just I want to find people who are passionate and kind of share this passion of golf, whatever that means to them. I just want to bring more passionate people together, because we all have this, this very strong feeling about golf, and it means different things to me than it does to you, than it does to the people listening. But that doesn't mean that it's not the greatest thing ever for all of us, because it is, and I think that's what's great, right, yeah, so well, hey, buddy, you know what? I got some golf that I get to teach.
Speaker 1:You don't have a dozer to get on today, but you do have a wedding, so you got to make sure you get that hair just perfect for that wedding. So I want to give you plenty of time for that. The fro will be jamming. I like it, man. I like the fro. It's a good fro and I mean, look at me, I wish I had a little more, but LA looks strong. Hole number five took care of my hair for me, so now we don't have any more.
Speaker 1:So, anywho, thank you so much, mike. I really really appreciate you sitting down and talking to us, sharing your insights. It's been great. If you are really wanting to enjoy some beautiful scenery, please go check out DeVries Designs on social media as well as on his website. Then you can also visit the CDP website as well and see all of the properties that they are associated with. They are truly some of the most magical golf courses in the world and really, really awesome properties, because, as you heard from Mike himself, there's a lot of care that goes into making sure that your experiences match exactly what you expect. So thanks so much to Mike for taking the time to join us. If you haven't already, please make sure to subscribe to this podcast and download it, and until next time, keep grinding.
Speaker 2:Thanks, appreciate it.
