The Measured Golf Podcast
With so many amazing things happening in the Measured Golf Community, we have decided to start a podcast to discuss all of the amazing things that we are seeing have a positive impact on our athletes. Whether it be Ground Reaction Forces, Golf Biomechanics, or strategies for making the most out of your limited practice time, we hope that this podcast becomes a resource for you to finally become the player you know you can be!
Video of the podcast can be found by visiting our Measured Golf YouTube page.
Upcoming Guest and announcements can be viewed by following the Measured Golf Instagram page.
To learn more, or to visit the Measured Golf facility in person, please, find us on the web at measuredgolf.com.
The Measured Golf Podcast
The Psychology of Golf Performance
What if your biggest obstacle in golf isn't your swing but your mind? In this illuminating conversation with clinical psychologist Dr. Michael Klein, we uncover the powerful psychological elements that separate elite performers from struggling golfers – regardless of physical ability.
Dr. Klein brings a unique perspective as both a trained psychologist with over 18,000 therapy sessions and an experienced golf mental coach working with players from juniors to tour professionals. His central message? While not everyone can move like a pro, anyone can learn to think like one.
We explore how anxiety manifests on the course through two primary channels: future-oriented worry ("don't hit it in the water") and past-focused grief over missed opportunities. Dr. Klein offers practical strategies for regulating emotions, including breath control techniques, walking rhythm adjustments, and accessing feelings of gratitude to flush out negativity.
The conversation delves into the critical importance of pre-shot routines – how professionals perform the same sequence every time, creating a dependable framework that allows them to execute under pressure. We examine the concept of "agency" – the psychological feeling that you're capable of the task at hand – and how selecting shots from your actual repertoire builds genuine confidence.
Perhaps most revolutionary is Dr. Klein's perspective on finding your authentic golf identity. Not everyone needs to adopt the stoic Tiger Woods approach to succeed. Some players thrive with more emotional expression, while others perform better with quiet focus. The key is discovering how you function best rather than forcing yourself into someone else's model.
Want to transform your mental approach and experience more freedom on the course? This episode provides the roadmap to thinking like a champion, regardless of your handicap.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf podcast, where we sit down, have guests join us and talk all things golf and golf performance and golf courses and just about everything to do with golf. And this week is going to be a special one because we are really going to maybe try to get a little bit closer to the spirit of the game and understanding why we behave the way we do on the golf course. So when we start talking about behaviors and we start talking about how we are reacting to the environment when we play golf and maybe having difficulties overcoming that, the person you'd probably want to talk to in that situation would be a clinical psychologist. And we're just so lucky to have a clinical psychologist on standby who is willing to be gracious enough with his time to take zero dollars to hop on a podcast with myself and kind of nerd out for maybe a bit of time. So, without further ado, I'd like to introduce Dr Michael Klein.
Speaker 1:Doc, we're happy to have you. Thanks so much for joining us. This should be fun, man. I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 2:Me too, yep Clinical psychologist by trade and, since 2020, marrying that with my extensive golf background as a player and a student of the game, and really fortunate to have linked up with some great coaches who've referred a lot of players to me. I now coach players at every level elite juniors, collegiate, regional pros and some tour professionals now. So it's been, it's been an amazing run and I'm really excited to talk to you because I think, actually, I just I just was watching one of your YouTube clips and I was like I have to talk. I mean, I was, I just messaged you. I was like I need to talk to you. The passion that you had in your desire for coaches to do, do the best they could for their students and have everybody enjoy the game was so palpable to me and I think I bring the same passion to the mental coaching work I'm doing. It's been amazing. It's been so rich that I'm actually very far into writing a book. I'm most of the way through with a manuscript. And's so much to talk about and let's get started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's, you know, like you said, the, the passion, right, and I think that you know, whether it's golf or whatever walk of life you're in, you know people.
Speaker 1:Some people are fortunate and find what it is that they're passionate about and then really fortunate people get to go on the journey that just they kind of do what they love every day and and it kind of shows through and I definitely think you have that and I like to think I have that as well.
Speaker 1:But I think the Genesis for some of that and what connects us is, you know, for me it was going back to 2019 and meeting Mr Mike Adams and I know we share that in our lineage and you know Mike's big, big two things at that summit were you need to invest in yourself and you need to ask better questions. And I really feel like you know, obviously I've made the investment Everybody that see my facility and all that stuff. That goes without question. But the asking better questions part, and that is, you know, kind of being that four-year-old and perpetually asking why, and that's where I think you know you and other doctors and other disciplines, you know, coming into golf really allows for people like me who kind of more or less coach golf, to kind of start understanding the bigger things at play versus it's just hitting a white golf ball through a field and adding up the totality of it with a single number, like there's a little more going on than that and right that lineage to mike.
Speaker 2:and really someone I've I've I've worked closely with is Danny Harcourt, who's now Director of Instruction at Fiddlers, and Terry Rolls and others who I've presented at Mike's conferences. I've done a little bit of presenting for Mike Doyle at Five Iron and gotten to meet so many other people in the field. I went to the PGA show this year and so asking better questions is a great place for us to start, because let's dive in, the student's going to ask you why did the ball go left? Why did the ball go right? Why did I fat it or chunk it? And for the mental coach-.
Speaker 1:I wish they asked that question.
Speaker 2:You're so many steps ahead. I wish they asked that question.
Speaker 1:They don't ask that question. They just sit there and do the same thing over and over again and wonder why they're constantly shooting scores higher than they think they should and they're not wrong, they should shoot lower scores but they never adapt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's right. So adaptation is something that's so interesting. We can really get into that, the thing I tend to work on. I also work with club players, right. So that's what's really interesting. And let's just also state one of our basic premises that everybody may not move like a professional, but they can think like a professional For sure. Agreed, let's start there.
Speaker 2:So what does an elite player do different than a player who's out playing casually or even is competing at their club championship or against their friends, or just wants to get the best out of their game? And the number one thing I end up going over with them is what shot are they hitting? They have to select a clear target. They have to match the club to the shot they're hitting. And a fun thing for us to discuss is when I cue a club player, an amateur, what's the intended shape of the shot? They'll often fight me and say I'm not good enough to do that. And I say, when you play, well, what's your stock shop? Because the joy of knowing people like you and knowing Mike is I've really been a student of the way he teaches and some of the biomechanic assessments, and I know, and you know, that bodies like to move how they like to move. So if they take advantage of their basic you know movement patterns and produce a shape that their body wants to produce, like a small fade, and they say, well, when I play, well, I hit a tiny fade. So I say, could you say I'm going to hit a small fade right at the tree behind the green. It'll fade a little to the right and land just next to the even on the pin, if the pin is center. And then they sort of get a little bashful and they say I said could you produce that shot? And they say yes. So I said, okay, now get up to it and tell me I'm going to hit a little fade at the tree. It's going to peel off the tree and land right in the middle of the green and then they can produce it. And so that often starts a cascade of exploration to elevate their mental game, where they realize a light bulb goes on which is naming the shot, and say I'm going to which are my three favorite words I'm going to link that to target and an intended shape that they can produce. And I'm telling you, mike, I've seen people the next swing, the next hole, elevate their whole game because then their mind is working more like a professional's who always does that right. They would, I caddy for people like Danny and Luke Wells played in the U S amateur.
Speaker 2:These guys have a clear picture of exactly what they're doing and they don't like the shot they're hitting. I know you're going to love this. They love the shot they're hitting. The second I see, love. I snapped the bag and I'm off loving the shot that they see within their repertoire total commitment, getting over it and pulling the trigger on time. I actually get a little bit like chills saying it. It's so beautiful watching a player do that and let's offer this to everybody today. Everybody can do that if they're picking shots from a repertoire that they can produce. I want to peel shots from a repertoire that they can produce.
Speaker 1:I want to peel the onion back on that just a bit. Cool. I saw the most amazing thing that I've probably seen at a professional tournament and I can't remember. I want to say it was 23. I was at Augusta national Right and it was late in the evening and I had just kind of like parked right there at the very end of the driving range next to the caddy shack and was just kind of watching some players like do kind of some you know late evening kind of session stuff and was just kind of didn't have a didn't have a real reason to be there, but also like had every reason to be there.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So, um, I'm sitting there and I see Randy Smith uh, scotty Scheffler's coach and he's kind of sitting front row and I'm kind of in the back row. So I just kind of see Randy sitting there and I was not going to go talk to him or bother him or anything, I was just going to kind of see if anything happened. And this young man came up to him like really small, young young man and I was like, and he's wearing a Nike hat, kind of looks like Scotty, and he walks up to Randy and obviously Randy knows who he is, like it was obvious that maybe this was one of Randy's junior students or something of that effect. So this young man pulls out this little notebook right and starts showing it to Randy and Randy opens it and he's going through each page kind of thoughtfully and I have no idea what was in that notebook. I have no idea. But I thought about it long and hard because I really respect Randy a lot as a coach. Like I think he's world-class but he's unreal. I've met him a few times. He's unreal.
Speaker 1:But I will say this what I took away from it was what I now do with our juniors. So when we're very fortunate, we have the rocket mortgage classic in Detroit and it tends to be kind of a off, off week kind of event. So you have a lot of players in the field that maybe aren't household names, right? So what we do is for our junior players is we assign a random player. Wow, they have to go and follow that player for the day oh my God, that's amazing and they have to write in their observations for what that player does well, what they need to work on. Da, da, da, da da, because in my mind that's what I think maybe Randy had that kid doing.
Speaker 2:Right, that's so awesome. It's like your fantasy of what it was. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Here's what kills me. Okay, here's the layer coming back on what we're already talking about.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Nobody ever writes the obvious. If we watch the tour players, if we watch the best amateurs in the world, if we watch collegiate players even good high school players they have a routine, absolutely they do the same thing every time, every time, every time, every time, every time. They do not break these routines for anything and that always gets missed. And going back to you saying everybody can think like a pro if we give them organization as to how to hit a shot and create a process, then there's time to actually go through that mental thinking. But I feel like most people are so busy and preoccupied with a bunch of nonsense that they never even have a chance to remember what they were supposed to remember.
Speaker 2:That's right, mike. Let's spend the next eight and a half hours talking about routine, because I think we could, I couldn't. I mean it's it's absolute magic mana from heaven the way you're describing that and it's something very exciting because, under pressure, what I've discussed so much with the tour professionals that I work with is the courage to pull the trigger on time. Keeps them on that internal clock in the routine. Their body is ready to hit the shot like a stopwatch within a quarter second probably, it's probably less. And when you know my only job is to follow my routine, stay committed to the shot, get over it and pull the trigger on time with courage. Courage is the performance skill to play elite golf an. You see, you're with a clinical psychologist who's done 18 000 therapy sessions and now hundreds, or who knows how many you know mental coaching sessions and the idea that you, your job is for that club to move on time and that's your only job, is how we start to play free and liberated golf and it's very exciting when you can get somebody. One guy would say I'm on a tightrope, doc, I'm on a tightrope all the time, and we're talking about like expanding that tightrope to like a beautiful, concrete foundation and he's starting to embrace this idea that his job is to follow his routine, which is fairly tight actually, and then pull the trigger on time. And that's why watching golf is so beautiful, like it's almost like dance, like your brain expects the club to move and it does, and all the people listening and everybody playing can develop a better routine. Let's talk about it right.
Speaker 2:I'm a huge proponent of Vision 54. I love defining that for people. They don't have to have read the books. Everybody knows when I say the decision box is that space where you're assessing your lie, you're getting a number, you're selecting a shot, and I love this language. I think you'll like it.
Speaker 2:Once you cross the threshold out of the decision box into the play box, your job is to get in there and routine that's why I do on coursework is as a clinical psychologist, I am a expert at observing human behavior and so my specialty is the unconscious. I'm a psychoanalyst and down to the bodies like waggles and Mike, the number of looks matters when you're playing well, and you're just one nice relaxed look down and go. So then I'll say only take one look each time. It can get a little fussy initially because they're thinking about it. But the confidence that you can take from I'm going to get over the ball, I'm going to take one look, I like to say drench my brain with only target as the last thing, and then pull the trigger. My God, it is liberating.
Speaker 2:It's the best, and it's the best part of what makes it so fun is that feeling of freedom.
Speaker 1:It's. I want to dive into this a little bit. So it's interesting that you bring that point up, because what I can tell you from firsthand experience, and what I work with my players on, is absolutely everybody feels emotions on the golf course. Right, you can choose to label them how you choose to label them.
Speaker 2:We'll get into that yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, but at the end of the day, there are energies that you're going to have to manage throughout a round of golf. So, with that being said, what's really interesting is that everybody is going to have these things happen to them during a round of golf. There's too many shots, it takes too long, there's just way too much time spent for you to be able to just walk through this thing without taking any kind of traumas.
Speaker 2:Right Like this is this is going to happen and when? When we get there I'm going to define it very easily for the listeners uh, in two timeframes future and past. So let's keep going and then we'll. I want to give people something beautiful to take, especially in this realm, yeah, but here's the magic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here's the true magic, in my opinion when you start having those thoughts and you start getting in the way and you start getting uptight that's right when these things occur, instead of immediately feeling shame and panic. So, instead of feeling shame and panic, the real skill, in my opinion, is being able to interject with your active thought, with your active voice, and being able to say hey, hey, hey, hang on. If I forget how to do me, then, yes, those things may happen, yeah, but and I like this, but I normally don't like a butt, but I like this but but if I do my routine and I follow my process, I'm so good at doing that that I can do that, yes, right Now. Here's where it gets crazy the minute that we decide to focus on our process and our routine and be in the present versus out in the future, or out in the past trying to figure out which way it's going to go. We put our Superman cape on and now nothing can touch us.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's the freedom of competitive play, is being able to step in and go. I'm not a loser. I'm not going to come up short. I don't care how many times I've not made this happen. We're going to make it happen right here and right now.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful man Like there's not. That's a human thing.
Speaker 2:We bonded on, which is the aesthetics of good golf. It's beautiful to see people conduct themselves in this way and we we said we're going to get deep. I would say oh watch goes, we're going to hit this in the water Like that offends the golf gods. Let's talk about these golf gods. The golf gods are offering you a chance to be your best self.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get in trouble. I'm going to get in trouble, you. You brought it out. I don't care, I'm going to say it. I just got in trouble for not being myself on this podcast, so I'm going to be myself. I am not attacking religion in any way. I think it's beautiful, I think it's great, I'm all for it. But you, michael klein, yes, our god, I, I seriously sure I. Michael dutro, yeah, I'm god. Yes, you're listening to this. You're god. You are God of your own world. You are God of your own life. Only you have all the infinite wisdom about you. Now here's the kicker. Golf, in my opinion, is a human being's strive for a higher self. Absolutely, it is the gateway to you learning how to access a higher plane. Yes, and golf has a really nasty habit of bringing out people's lower self.
Speaker 2:That's what I mean by personifying it as it's. It's it's you, we just got. We just got canceled, by the way, why I think we're just getting started. We just got canceled, by the way, why I think we're just getting started. The reality of it is, it's everything you just said. And what's so interesting, when you talk to people in sessions, right, you give them the space confidentially, privately, to talk about themselves. They have their golfer self that they relate to, which is what we're talking about. They get a chance to actualize that every time they hit the ball and we have a relationship to golf itself. Right, they'll say golf hates me, or this or that.
Speaker 1:right, and so they do. They believe that. They think they're cursed. They legitimately think they're cursed. Well, it's great, or you think it's?
Speaker 2:cursed or the well, hopefully we'll get into into this is they feel they're entitled to make every 15 footer right. They're offended by it, but what I would say is, yeah, is. It doesn't want you to be a sad sack loser. It wants you to actualize yourself and developing a solid routine and following it and hitting the ball when it's time to hit it with courage, instead of thinking about where it's going to go. That that, really that's that leaves an indelible mark on people, um, and it, it creates.
Speaker 1:You know I'll to be a little bit personal. You know I've had some things happen in my life to where, you know, I lost my dad 20 years ago. Um, you know, I I struggled with alcohol. Not struggled, I was an alcoholic.
Speaker 1:I haven't drank in 15 years but uh yeah, I mean just, I've had a lot of things happen that have really had me down and out, including, you know, having some housing situation issues when I was younger and things like that. Yes, because I had won so many golf tournaments yeah, I know this sounds crazy, but because I had won so many times at that age, I just kind of knew like hey, I know that things are down right now, but like I'm going to pull through because I know how to close, I know how to get this done. You know, and it's like that that breeds confidence in all walks of life and and kind of lifts our spirits. And I think you know the highs in golf.
Speaker 1:If you're a golfer and I know you are like, if you're a golfer man, I I know that, like having children and marriage and those things are wonderful and good and great. But I swear, if you're honest with yourself, some of your highest moments in life happen on the golf course, just like. So do the lowest. But I mean it's you have to realize like there's a balance and for every high there's a low, and that's that's what golf kind of hopefully teaches us is a little bit of regulation.
Speaker 2:Regulation and I think what we're trying to do today is expand people's minds about the motivation to play and what you can get out of it, which it can be to break 80 for the first time, it can be score, it can be to win titles and you know sort of the competitive, sort of outcomes and markers of a great player. And I think one of the things I wanted to do with you is explore this is why do we play? And why we play is to get a chance to actualize ourselves on any given shot and to make these memories that we'll never forget. And that's why non-golfers don't get it. But it's so funny when I open an initial consultation with a player, I say I do it just like a therapy session, but I just asked them about their golfer self. I say tell me about your game. Everybody uses the same word. It's so funny. I say when did you get serious about the game? They're like okay, so I was 18. And then I say tell me about memorable or pivotal moments in your golfing career. And this is interesting, it's worth stating.
Speaker 2:As a psychologist, I'm also a well-trained research psychologist academic. I've published papers, so I really follow the literature on motor learning, peak performance and there's very, very valuable stuff out there and I'm writing about it in this book. And there's very, very valuable stuff out there and I'm writing about it in this book. And you get as much or more mileage for development from successes, as well as the traumas or that scar tissue. So I always ask them tell me about your triumphs also, because this isn't only about the times you three putted on the last hole you know to not win, or you lost in a playoff or something like that.
Speaker 2:So the funny thing about golfers is they remember the yardage, right. They remember it. It's just amazing. But it also is that the way an organized mind works when you're a bit of an expert, right, if you've done this for years and thousands of hours, it's not that surprising. It's context, specific, right, you have all these cues.
Speaker 2:You know what event it was, what course it was, what hole it was, and yet people can say it was 152 yards. The middle of the fairway pin was tucked right, there was a little bit of breeze coming out, but it was, you know, 14 years ago, and so they know it perfectly. So in the sessions I can ask people to tell me about specific events and shots and so they know it perfectly. So in the sessions I can ask people to tell me about specific events and shots and that's how we sort of get to work through the emotional side of it, including the scar tissue. That's not, it makes a deep mark, but you're, you have me on today and I would say I can work through those, those sores, those wounds, with people in the sessions.
Speaker 1:I don't think. I mean I'm constantly bombarded with you know, little Timmy's a great player, but he doesn't get it done.
Speaker 2:I have four text messages right now from him, yeah, and it's just like. I think it's a skill set right. It's a skill set that we don't emphasize.
Speaker 1:It's just an unrealistic connecting but it's an unrealistic expectation on little. Timmy to win.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Like yeah. Who gives a shit if little Timmy wins something when he's seven years old, like we care about what he wins when he's 21. That's right and but it's just. I feel like so often, man, you know, I just got back from a trip over to the UK and played some golf over in Scotland and at the, at the old course of St Andrews or whatnot. Yeah, and it's just, it's such a completely different game and spirit in which it's played yeah and like nobody.
Speaker 1:And this is the craziest thing yeah and like nobody. And this is the craziest thing when you walk off that golf course, if you try to tell somebody from that area what you shot, they just look at you like what's wrong with you, like the fact that that's the first thing that comes out of your mouth when you just walked off of. That it just kind of shows you like the almost kind of the how would I want to say it the the ego that golfers have developed to where we've really become narcissistic and it's all about what we think of the golf course and how we played the shots and it's. It's really I feel like and I really have worked on this and thought about this a lot since this trip but I feel like I play golf through this little pinhole to where I'm just trying to figure out my thing and my way, and it's like when I can get wider and when I can see the whole course and I can see the hole next to this one and I can like take in more of the picture, it's just so much easier for me to hit those shots I want to hit, because I'm so much more aware of the environment and the things that go missed.
Speaker 1:But it's just like I think, like you said earlier, like why do we play golf? And that's really I don't think we're doing a good enough job asking people that because, yes, we want to win trophies, yes, we want to play well, yes, we want to do our best ever. Of course, those are all great goals, but they're goals. They're not reasons as to why we do this. If those are the reasons and we know that you're going to win very, very rarely, you know you're going to fail a lot more in golf and you're going to win.
Speaker 1:Then, like that's probably not the endeavor you want to get into, If that's what you're seeking, Maybe get into playing like you know, I don't know Candy Crush.
Speaker 2:Yeah and look, we're basically at the doorstep of the it is. So it's not an empirically researched thing, but the thing we're talking about is flow. A lot of people may have even heard of that book or that concept. I'm writing an entire chapter about this and it's very specific about what it's like and I love this. I'll give people something. So beautiful is when the challenge meets the capacity, there's the opportunity for flow. Isn't that beautiful? When the challenge meets the capacity and skill, there's this check, because it has to be. If it's too easy, like candy crush, you don't get into flow. Like crushing candy, you get into flow. You know, holding a little wedge shot from 72, because it's so exciting to execute at such a high level and it is a challenge, and it's still a challenge to hit the driver's big.
Speaker 2:But we all know, hitting it right in the middle, right up the middle, is very difficult to do and it's very satisfying. And so flow is about being totally immersed in what you're doing and executing within your capacities and having opportunities to continue to do that. You just want to keep doing it, so you just keep hitting golf shots. You're going to be proud of me, you're going to be proud.
Speaker 2:The point becomes continuing to hit golf shots and you know and I know, but let's not lose the importance of competition and elite players. They'll say I had no idea how deep I was right. You lose sight of the score and where you were because they were so immersed in the process and so excited to just get up there and roll another one in and get up and hit another t-shot because the, the, the flow state, is a feeling of I could do this forever and I want to do this forever. Right, I'm concentrating, but I have like endless energy and all I want to do is keep doing it, and so the score becomes relevant, it goes into the background. So I want to be proud of you Go.
Speaker 1:It's funny. So Rick Sessinghaus is a friend of mine and obviously Rick does a lot of work with Sergey and the Flowcode team, so I've kind of been in this for a little bit and I my job at a high level. If I could get a player to walk up to a short-sighted terrible situation, bad lie, nothing's working for you. And instead of walking up and hanging their head and going, man, this shot's tough and I'm going to have a hard time. I need two things to happen here. Yep, one, I need them to change the narrative and I want them to go. Hey, I've got an amazing opportunity here to show off how good I am.
Speaker 2:We call it watch this. Yeah right, my pro turns to me in the bunker and says watch this. And I know they're going to hold it or almost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, no doubt. So that's number one. And then number two is I hang on one sec Number. And then number two is I hang on one sec. Number two is I need them to be in a place to where we're at six breaths per minute. I'm sorry, six breaths per minute. Yep, I said that correctly, interesting. So there is some hard research on this, okay, and what we know is that a lot of golfers out there are breathing just like every other human being is breathing. It's somewhere between 15 to 20 breaths per minute, I see.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And what we know is that through poor breath, because of poor posture, because of poor diets, because of poor everything, but because of this poor breath, people are already entering into fight, flight or freeze, or pre-entering their parasympathetic or sympathetic system.
Speaker 2:Yeah and let yep.
Speaker 1:Right. So, with that being said, we have got to get to this place, to where we're creating this box breathing. We've got to create this place to where the body is able to regulate itself and we can't be already triggered up for, oh, something bad's about to happen.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So, with that being said, the biggest thing that I need is I need us to be calm, focused and then using our breath, and then I need us to go hey, watch this. And if we can get those things to occur I'm not saying that I guarantee we're in the flow state in that moment, but we're at least setting the stage for that to have the opportunity to occur, because the hard research suggests everything that there is about flow nobody has a way of getting into it, but we know that at about that six breaths per minute, that's where that happens or has the opportunity for people to slip into it. So, by creating the opportunity, by creating the narrative and the self-belief and the confidence, like you said earlier now, we're at least going to see their best, and they're likely not going to just, you know, leave it short and do something dumb.
Speaker 2:It's great and I, you know it's really exciting because I fight, fight or freeze. You know this is language that's taken from trauma research and I've treated people with back. You know histories of trauma and psychotherapy for 22 years, and so the underlying principle of flow code and what you're describing is, you know, self-regulation right, we have to be and also a good term is within the zone of tolerance. We have to be within a zone where we're not too stressed out and breathing shallowly and frankly, panic-stricken and anxious. And what's really interesting is we can also have hypoarousal, which is a sort of withdrawal, and you'll love this. The spiral sometimes looks like this lie sucks, this course sucks. I hate being here, but you see how you're sort of withdrawing and this comes up with players all the time in the sessions. It's very interesting that hypo arousal and hyper arousal are sort of bookends and neither are sort of within the zone of tolerance where you can perform highly.
Speaker 2:Now, breathing is a very good option for self-regulation, but I think part of what I do in my sessions, because I've so much experience talking about people with their emotions for so many, you know, for decades is there's more than one way to regulate into those six breaths. And I've even had people say don't teach me to breathe, because what they're saying is I have another sort of proclivity or style, and that's why I'm called character, sports psychology with a K, because it's the individual. That's the Greek. The Greek etymology of character is individuality. That's the greek. The greek etymology of character is individuality. And so another beautiful thing to regulate the breathing is using the body. So I say use your walk, use your walk to regulate. So because the body starts to mimic the fuck, this I don't, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that I don't want to be here. Another bad line the bunker. So if they can start to slow their body and get back into the rhythm of when they move, when they're playing beautiful golf and in the zone, their breathing changes.
Speaker 1:For the record. You see that all the time on the golf course. You see it all the time You'll see somebody make a putt and they will grab it out of the hole and they'll quick step a couple of times and then they, like, throw the brakes and start walking at a more even pace. You see it all the time.
Speaker 2:So what's exciting about my work in individual sessions with individual players is some people are discussing their breathing and box breathing with me and there are infinite other options for how to do this. You know it's a really moving one and this is some serious stuff. Like you know, I have a confidentiality, like I can't disclose some of the people I work with, but this is a person who's winning as a professional and what we discussed is gratitude, is a very powerful emotion. What do we mean by gratitude? It's not just I appreciate, it's really feeling into. My family has sacrificed. I actually will get tearful if I do this. My family has sacrificed so much for me to be here. They are so loving and so supportive of me that you actually feel inside the internal tie to, let's say, grandma, who taught you to play. And I'll say, gratitude overrides any negative emotion and one of my player, one of my player's superpowers she's never going to tell anybody that she does this is she accesses gratitude to flush out all the stress and negativity and then she moves on with her. Because it's very hard, let's go from the positive side. It's not very hard. It's very powerful to get connected to how, like, almost like you feel indebted and so fortunate that you're out there chasing your dream. That's the other language we have. She is playing professional golf. No fried, no buried lie in a bunker is going to override if she can get back to that channel of appreciation and real gratitude, which is the sacrifices other people have made appreciation and real gratitude, which is the sacrifices other people have made and it really can flush out enormous amount of negative emotion. So we put this together, what you and I are talking about, that it must be so to play good golf and not to make light of this idea that we just want you to follow your routine to manage the emotions, everything from box breathing and getting it back to six, or using your walk, or using gratitude. And I'll tell you, the reason people work with me is I got many, many more tricks up my sleeve for that, which is how do we develop your style of self-regulation so you can weather the ups and downs of a round? And let me, I'll give you another beautiful, like I'll just give you a softball.
Speaker 2:The main emotions is the past and the future. What do I mean? The future is a don't, don't. Don't chunk it, don't, leave it short. Don't is worry about a future negative outcome.
Speaker 2:My dissertation, one of my variables was anxiety. The components of anxiety empirically are the physical sensations and worry. And worry is always in the future. This is what I want everybody to hear. I'll say it again Worry in the future. This is what I want everybody to hear. I'll say it again Worry.
Speaker 2:By definition, the structure of it is it's future oriented. Don't go long, don't hit in the bunker. So if you can catch yourself in the future and coach yourself back into what's my lie, what am I doing? Go back into your routine. You're managing the future. You're managing your stress. The past is about you're going to love this lost opportunity. The past let's go deeper is about grief. It's I just missed the green with a wedge. This is what kills the elite junior when nobody cares at the elite level. Let's give people a secret. Nobody cares about missing the green from 174 yards, from a fairway bunker. It's the easiest shot to commit to in the world because anything near the green clearing the lip, it's very easy to accept the outcome. But, boy, if you're in the middle of the fairway on a par five and it is infuriating. And so what are we saying is you've now missed an opportunity and I swear, mike, I'll be like and that makes you feel how I'm being serious and I want them to get to. It makes me feel sad. I know you're laughing.
Speaker 1:It's true.
Speaker 2:It's true, it does, because missed opportunity is what makes people angry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're missing out.
Speaker 2:Anger is a secondary emotion to sadness. So when they can say I felt sad that I missed the green, they're going more towards acceptance acceptance that I missed an opportunity. I had a 14 footer. I mean everybody knows this three putting from 12 feet. When you hit the green and regulation, you want to die because you've just squandered an opportunity. So let's give people beautiful stuff today, which is the future is worry, and we want to coax ourself back to the present. And the past is a missed opportunity which feels like a loss, which you have to accept that you're missed the green with a wedge and you can see and and coach yourself back to but watch this, I'll hold the bunker shot. So we coach ourselves back to the present.
Speaker 2:Primarily, managing worry and loss and missed opportunity and I got chills, like that is powerful, like how do you get it done is the primary, foundational way I speak to players at every caliber, because this is emotional language that is human is through the future oriented nature of worry and the past oriented nature of opportunity missed. And think about the cliff right, you're in the middle of a fairway, you got 92 yards and you just catch it one groove thin, a puff of wind and, by by the way we could talk strategically. Uh, back pins with wedges in the hand is a is an important thing for professional and elite players to be mindful of, right, because it's it's like set up to seduce them, to chase those pins, and often long if you have a hole that has a wedge in your hand. Long is often no bueno, it's not very good. It's not very good.
Speaker 2:So um, except it is an opportunity, so watch that but but you go watch this, but you go from, you go from. I have a great opportunity here to the oh, I'm short-sighted that cliff of opportunity, to loss, to recover, to watch. This is what elite mental performance looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean it's just so funny though the waves we go on as golfers. I mean I specifically remember I'd played really really well at the um at the new course at St Andrews and you know, I'd hit one drive that was just a little pulled and my caddy thought it had gotten into the gorse, bush, all right. So we're walking and I'm just like in the pit of despair. Oh, I hit one.
Speaker 2:Despair is the best word.
Speaker 1:Right, the pit of despair, right. Just, I hit one bad drive all day. It's like the 16th hole or whatever, like you know, and it's maybe in the gorse. Bush, maybe my caddy's like, it's probably in the gorse, that's what I would guess. So we're walking up there and I'm in, like the pit of despair. There's my golf ball.
Speaker 2:And then, yes, right, but this is us, we're doing our job right, we are capturing the spirit of the emotional right, the waves right.
Speaker 1:So like I hit the shot and then like play the hole out, and I'm on the next tee box and I specifically remember just like what's wrong with you, man, like why are you going on that kind of?
Speaker 2:ride like, why even?
Speaker 1:even enter like, and it's like I'm a junkie for the ride, Like I like the roller coaster. Um, you know, I, I think I just like the highs and lows so. I don't know, call me crazy.
Speaker 2:No, you're not crazy. And again, this is why I talk about style in my work with people and that's it's. Character in the sense of each player is different and people idle like a car at different levels, and I like to be playful, like you have the bookends of DJ and Bryson. Bryson is like what's the barometric pressure? Like he feeds off information, right, and you'd be like I would be exhausted walking off the first tee and that caddy must be a saint. No, and I would love to meet. I mean, I think he's a genius because he, he loves that, that intensity, and he feeds off it For sure. I don't know Dustin Johnson, but I feel like he's like I want to tell, give me a number and tell me where to hit it right.
Speaker 2:He, he just keeps it that's exactly correct right and it's like a pull, like he's barely alive, but it's not exciting that they're both major champions.
Speaker 2:So my job is to draw out what is that person's style of play to get it done.
Speaker 2:There's no one correct way to do it and if you're a junkie and you realize I play better at sort of like a narrower amplitude of emotional, like a nice word valence. The valence is positive or negative, the intensity is the sort of amount quantitatively. So if you're saying if we want to sort of idle lower, right, we start to try to get them off the roller coaster, but if they turns out that they love, like they feed off the information and a lot of emotion sometimes that keeps them interested and motivated, and so that's where it really becomes fun for me, where we're sort of eliciting and developing their style of play and one of the things we decide that's never talked about, though it's never talked about, doc, like nobody talks about that and like, if there's one thing that I would like to hammer real quick, I'm sorry to cut you off a little bit there but this is important, but the the idea that for a junior player to be elite or successful is they have to walk around like Tiger Woods.
Speaker 2:I like everybody should. Every one of those should give me a call and it's. It is so thrilling for them.
Speaker 1:So here's here's why I bring that up, though yes I have seen dustin johnson outside of golf. Yeah, dustin johnson outside of golf does not match dustin johnson inside of golf. I'm not surprised and I think honestly it's why he doesn't connect and love golf, because I think it's like taking somebody on add and giving them add meds, like they don't like that. Like I think that's kind of what's happened to dj over the years is that he was kind of told to, if you go back to early dj yeah like we all.
Speaker 2:I want to show my. I am a player and a fan, right Hitting big slings hooks right Before he started hitting fades, hooks, hooks.
Speaker 1:DJ Like dude. You want to talk about an engine and where it idles. Yeah, DJ's idled all the way at max.
Speaker 2:Really, oh my God, you are killer. This is so interesting Wow.
Speaker 1:Dude, go back and find old DJ. He's bouncing up and down the fairways and, dude, he's like making either a birdie or a triple Like it's nowhere in between and he's having the time of his life. Yeah, oh, wow.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think they crushed his spirit. Man, oh man, you just like I've been around that guy enough like enough, and I, I, I like to pride myself on thinking I have a good, good idea of what good looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean I think Dustin Johnson should have won 15 majors. I mean he was the elite athlete on tour for so long Once he hit those wedges, man yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's just like I think they took the fun away from it. You know what I mean. Like I don't think, because, dude, the only thing that guy does is is ride around on his, on his boats and fish. But if you watch him fish, dude, he's emotional, he's spirited, he's idling high Like it's engaging for him. And then he has to go to the golf course. It's walk row. Okay, where do I hit it? Okay, like I just think it's real. And I I don't think that that's the only situation where the way they're forced to behave doesn't match them. And anytime we're put into an environment to where we have to pretend to be somebody we're not, nobody likes that feeling. And if that becomes your daily life, like what a rough I'm going to blow your mind for me as a player and I play.
Speaker 2:I'm 52. I play in New Jersey state events. You know I'm not really. You know I'm not really good enough to play against the college kids anymore, right, these are all Division I kids in, like the New Jersey Am, but I play and nobody wonders why I'm there. It's fun. My event is the pre-senior right. That's my age cohort. There's a lot of really good golfers in New Jersey and so I played really well in that last year. And one of the things I've learned is I'm high. I'm high energy enthusiasm Hopefully you're getting it today and so are the listeners.
Speaker 2:But when I play, I think it's fun for me to dial it down and almost like methodical, because I'm exhausting myself all the time because of who I am. So I get to be a different version of myself and I talk to people, I listen, right, so that this is my time during the tournament. I mean I'm social but I don't have to be paying attention to their shots Like this is my day to compete and it's my time and I focus only on myself, on my game. I a good, you know, I know the etiquette and so a more plodding, quieter doc is. I find it so pleasurable because I get an outlet to myself where I play better too, because this is funny if I, if I get enthused, if I start playing well, I go oh my god, golf is so fun, golf is the best thing ever. I love life, I want to live for like, I'm in the like, why do I have to die? So I'm like, so I swear. So it's also showing. Zone of tolerance is valence.
Speaker 2:You can get too positive, you can get too high, yeah for sure I want to call my daughter right now and tell her how much I love her. And they're like dude, you got to hit this tee shot, so I go off the rails. So I actually find that frustrating that as soon as I start to get into the zone I go off the rails. Positive, but this is so fun. We're getting back to you wish everybody heard this which is you don't have to be Tiger Woods and a k-hole steely. You need to figure out who you are as a golfer. What makes it fun, how can you compete and succeed? I actually think we should go to confidence next, because the confidence thing around Tiger is, you know, it's like walking around like I'm great because I'm Tiger Woods, which is a great feeling. You know, and I know not every person playing on tour naturally has that sort of alpha confidence and that doesn't mean Very few. So does that mean you can't compete at the highest level? No, but you have to know what makes you great. You have to. So that's what I talk about with my players I'm great because and it's I love you. It's not everybody can say I'm great because I'm me right, like they're, like I'm great because I'm I'm me right, like I'm Tiger Woods or I'm whoever, and we're not picking on him. It's a wonderful, it's, it's the most powerful thing to have in the world. But what I get my pros to start to discuss is I work hard and often the person who's not like alpha confidence.
Speaker 2:By the way, this is true in the women's game too. Some women just walk around and say I'm amazing because I'm the best player who ever lived and it is a shield for them to some extent, for sure. But the idea that I'm also very honest with myself, I'm introspective, right, I'm self-aware. I'm great because I'm going to notice when something important happens on the course and I can bring it into my sessions and I can make use of this in my game. So I love expanding the platform. I call it the mountain of confidence, even at self-belief. I have a tour player. She loves this idea that it's her job. I'm a professional golfer and I go about my business like a pro. I get up, I do my workouts, I go to the course, I execute my shots, I do my preparation, I do my practice rounds. You'd be like well duh, like no, no. That's a source of pride and identity, which is I go about my business like a tour professional Cause. That's what.
Speaker 1:I do.
Speaker 2:That's what I do. And golf for her, golf is life, right she's. She's one of these people where it's, it's, she's chasing her dream and it's in her marrow, like at a very, very deep level. Done it since she's a like at a very, very deep level. Done it since she's a girl, and so she loves this, that I don't have to walk around and pretend I'm not who I am, which is, I'm great because I'm me, but I can be great for all these other reasons. And we're building this platform of confidence for her. She knows her routine, like we've done so much work together on different parts of her game, so her confidence grows because it's the way she goes about her business and what she does. She loves this.
Speaker 2:So we are just opening, hopefully, a bigger conversation, which is you don't have to be DJ or Bryson. Oh, this is what we wanted to get to. Which is, you, asked me, like, how can we help people be themselves and not play with fear? And we got there, we did, we got there, isn't it beautiful? The message we're sending is you have to be who you are, which is like actualization, right, you have to be who you are and express yourself at your in like the best ways you can to play your best golf, and that is both, I think I say, exciting and, in some ways, challenging, like maybe we can, we're going to keep talking about this. Which is how? And mike what I love about mike and I owe a debt of gratitude to him forever. Which is how? And Mike, what I love about Mike and I owe a debt of gratitude to him forever is he's saying you have to swing like yourself, yeah, which I love and you love it.
Speaker 1:I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1:I do, At the end of the day, like.
Speaker 1:This is like going back to confidence, a little bit Like where I struggle as a coach and where I fail my players routinely is that they believe and they won't be honest and they won't tell you this, but I know they do but they believe that they have to go out and execute flawless precision and play perfect golf to win.
Speaker 1:They believe that and the simple truth of it is and you've played enough good golf and I've played enough good golf and we've won golf tournaments and yada, yada, yada We've done these things and I can promise you we can both pick those rounds apart and we didn't hit every shot perfect, Absolutely. So at the end of the day, it's like you have to create the belief that you can win without your best stuff. I think we're seeing Scotty really start leaning into that now. You know, I think that's where he is and I haven't said this. I've been very reluctant to say this, but he is starting to learn how to become Tiger and he's starting to do Tiger things, and when Tiger learned how to win with his C game, it was lights out.
Speaker 2:Think about your confidence level. If you can win when you're not playing your best, that's when your confidence is at the peak, not when you're flushing every shot. I agree and I talk about this quite a bit with players which is embracing they love this. Most people have already said said embrace your inner seve like hit it all over the planet. I I was working with a very, you know, elite college great saying in?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was in. I was very, very a world-ranked college player. I said how do you feel when you flush it all day and the other girl slaps it around and like beats you by one? And she says I hate that girl? And I said, what if you were that girl? And she was like so one of the things I do with elite players is differentiate.
Speaker 2:This is important for good players. They conflate, they equate how they hit it with how they played. So the first task to become Tiger-like, to win without your best stuff, is to separate ball striking from how you played from how you played. And so I even will often open sessions Look, this is with players that you know, elite players and professionals to help them see that we want to understand. I love when they flush it and we we aspire to hit every shot good for the rest of our life. That's, that's from the book simplicity, that it is possible. You have to believe that you can hit every shot. If you see it clearly, take it from your repertoire, pull the trigger with courage. For the rest of your life you can hit perfect golf shot every time, because it's true. And how did you play is a separate question, because that also gives them space to. How did you play? For us is how did you do with your mental game?
Speaker 1:when I think about amazing things that I've heard yeah this is up there. Oh, you like that this. Yeah, I'm going to tell you when I think you're really going to like so, sean, I was talking to Sean Foley about my favorite player in the world with Justin Rose. I love Rosie, I love.
Speaker 2:Justin, I have a picture of keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love Justin Rose. But I was talking to Sean and we were talking about Rosie. Yeah, and he said that they were working together and Rosie had just come off the golf course and was like really demonstrative.
Speaker 2:Nice Ready, do I like Rosie? This has been printed and I want to frame it and look at the look on that man's face.
Speaker 1:He's got the best face in golf. Man Just steal the focus, I mean come on I love it.
Speaker 1:yeah, so sean says rosie comes off the course like super kind of unhappy with things and he goes straight to the short game area and he's like chipping it. And sean goes over to like see what's going on and Rosie's like I'm the worst effing chipper in the world. I suck at this. I'm so bad, like and just is like really un-Rosie, like and being very demonstrative about his like chipping and pitching Right. So anyway, like Sean was like I didn't think it was that bad.
Speaker 1:So like he went over and pulled the strokes, gained report right, because you know, back in the day they just printed them off for everybody. So he went and pulled the strokes, gained and found out that Justin Rose was the number one chipper and pitcher of the golf ball in the world. So he walks over to Rosie and he goes hey, rosie, you're kind of good at this man. And Rosie looks at him and goes, huh, I'll be damned. And. And Rosie looks at it and goes, huh, I'll be damned. And I just kind of went back and like he was fine after that, like it wasn't an issue anymore.
Speaker 1:Like but it's just like we have such an emotional connection, Right, and like let's say that you know you're trying to, you're trying to shoot under par on 18 and you hit a good drive and then you just kind of chip it. I'm sorry you miss it, Just a short side, Right, but it's fine. You can get it up and down Pretty straightforward chip and you just kind of flub one. You're going to think you're a terrible pitcher and chipper of the golf ball for the next six months. Yeah, Right, and it's like that's just not true. You maybe you pitched one in earlier in the round, whatever, Right, Like at the end of the day, like people have emotional reactions to golf shots and they generally base how they feel afterwards on those reactions, I think.
Speaker 1:So, long story short. I think that you know one of the things that really bugs the shit out of me and I've talked to Lou Stagner a lot, Um and and one of the things that I don't understand and nobody's been able to give me an answer on this about, is I don't think there's a single golfer on the planet who would disagree with the idea that if they kept some stats, it would help them get better at golf. I don't think anybody would disagree with that comment. However, Arcos has to give away their sensors for free to get people to even try it, because nobody will keep stats about their golf game Nobody. You have to bribe the juniors.
Speaker 2:One of the things you see in elite players is enormous discipline and passion. That's true. Seeing elite players is enormous discipline and passion and that's true and I'm just saying what you do see in junior golfers who one of my guys just shot 67 in his county, beat he beat, he had the lowest round, obviously right in the entire county by like five shots, but he's so disciplined, he's so passionate like he keeps his stats right there. They're very hard workers in different ways and one of the things you see is enormous determination and work ethic in in great players I mean duh but it's not the, it's not the simple stats either.
Speaker 1:We're not talking about fairways at green. No, no, he logs every, he logs every shot after and but it would be wonderful if we could broaden that to people to not have to spend an hour.
Speaker 2:you know he logs every shot and here's why that's helpful though, if we could broaden that to people to not have to spend 30 minutes logging every shot.
Speaker 1:It takes five minutes. There's some great stuff you can use. Now. It's really gotten powerful. It does all the analytics for you. It gives you all the information. It's wonderful, but here's why I say this yeah, the thing that I love so much about this data analysis okay is one of the ones I like to use is Clipped. It's a great platform If you're interested in keeping some information. Clipped is very good. But Clipped gives you basically five scores okay. It gets you an overall player quality score. Okay. It gives you a driving approach off the tee, I'm sorry, around the green and putting, and those are your categories. So your overall score, let's say, is a tour average, 100. But then when we look at driving, let's say you're a 110. Okay, well. Then when we look at approach, maybe you're a 90. Okay. And then when we look at, let's say, chipping and pitching, you're an 87. And then you're like 112, putting whatever Right, you're an 87, and then you're like 112 putting whatever right.
Speaker 1:But that's how we get to who you are, yeah, and now the thing is it's like okay if you are a hundred tour player average right, but you're a 90 driver of the ball and then you miss four fairways that round and come in and say I'm a terrible driver of the car. Like that's not accurate.
Speaker 2:Right, and one of the things I would do in sessions is I help people see that. That's a feeling. I felt like I played badly today. I felt like I drove it. Feelings are emotions and emotions feel true. It's you're in the grip of an emotion. I suck at golf, I'm the worst chipper Feels true and what you want and I want is for people to be know good care of your game and yourself as a golfer. You can conclude I suck at chipping for six months and that's a tragedy, right.
Speaker 1:Here's what I want you to do. I have a research project for you I want you to do.
Speaker 2:I got it ready. Yeah, here's what we're going to do.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to go to like three or five or how many ever we want to go to, but we're going to go to PAT sites. Now, you might not know what a PAT is.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know what a.
Speaker 1:PAT is. You know what. It is Okay, of course. It's the only time in golf that I think it exists where the golfer actually knows before they tee off what they have to shoot, and I would love to study the effect that that information has on people.
Speaker 2:Wow, Wow. I thought you were going to say you and I are going to clip to our our a few rounds and come back.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, I want to literally I want to go to a PAT.
Speaker 2:How are we? What are we? How are we going to get the data?
Speaker 1:I don't know. But I'm saying like I want, like here's what happens. You show up to the golf course and for the first time in your life, somebody tells you you have to shoot 78, 75 or 78, 77 to become a tour or a tour or a PGA member. Sorry, right, that's that's what happens. And people just absolutely lose their minds because all of a sudden there's a number in front of them. That is a problem, because if you are using stats, or if you have a handicap, or if you have any information or have even seen yourself play golf before, when you go to a golf course, you should establish like, hey, if I go out here today based off what I know about me today, and how I slept last night and how I feel right now and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:I should be able to shoot between this score and this score. I should be able to shoot between this score and this score. Yes, like we should have defined targets for what's going to happen and so many people just go out there and it gets going really well or it gets going poorly and they just kind of go for the ride and like that's where I think so many golfers really struggle is that they kind of take it as it comes once again, versus kind of being prepared and maybe having a plan and maybe like going and doing a little bit of a debrief and then kind of understanding how we performed in totality, versus just basing it off of how we feel about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean the PA too. I mean we really this is a great. It's really a fun idea. Maybe we could brainstorm offline about it.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things you're pointing to is for the competitive player college player and beyond into the professional game is in my work as a mental coach. I'm often helping club players establish, at the shot level, a better routine that looks more like a professional golfers. And so they they play better golf, right. They they do execute shots better, and most elite players are elite players because they are good athletes, right, they're gifted in some ways, and what we're saying is their routine is very clean, they visualize shots very well, they pick shots, they can execute, and so that's fun. And one of the ecosystems I have is it's right over the course of, you have at the golf shot level and then you have the golf round level. So that includes the self-regulation of loss and worry and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And so when people get going well or poorly, a phrase I really love to anchor people is you're there to play the architect, play the architect. The score doesn't even exist. Am I five under? Am I five over? If this is a hole? And this is golf IQ. This is wisdom. It's very interesting and you know, this hole cause I did my practice round is begging you to hit driver and it really is asking you to hit five iron. So the discipline to to lay up and let's use decade, let's say it really isn't enough room to hit driver. Your job is to play the course. What is the hole telling you to do to make the best score that eliminates the field, that eliminates having to play flawless golf and pretend you need to shoot 63 every day, which nobody does. I love that. People love this idea that you're you're it's like oh, golf's you against you, it's you against you is part of the skillset, and then it's also about your wisdom and strategy to play the architect and so for sure, if I get so four you still have.
Speaker 2:And I do like a lot not allowing encouraging people, cause this is what great players do. I call them field marshals. They love knowing they have a par five on 10. There's a wedge in their hand on 13. Another par five there's a reachable par four right. So they see opportunities and they're sort of plotting their way through the course, not trying on the other holes, but it gives them that way station that oasis, that trying on the other holes, but it gives them like that way station that oasis, that I have opportunities coming up and I can make up some ground and I have to be really sharp and disciplined on these tough holes, and so it lengthens it and it makes it more like chess, which is I'm here playing chess against the architect and I think that it helps people to have a style of managing a round and not just a shot level?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, there's a difference between hitting a ball and playing a shot, right?
Speaker 2:Like a massive difference. Hopefully we've hit this. You know we've run that cord many times today.
Speaker 1:So it's, you know I think it's funny because you know I think so often, you know, maybe you go to the driving range and you have a warmup session and you know you get your stock shot kind of working for you Right, and you're like, okay, cool, I got what I'm going to do. And then we kind of march over there to the T yeah, where I think, where I think maybe things go a little amiss, for a lot of people is in the process of, you know, getting from hitting the ball to playing golf. They never really flip that switch, yeah, and they, they kind of go out to the golf course and forget the lie and forget where the pen is and forget the wind and forget everything. And I'm just going to force my thing onto this target and like, so I can't come off of it because I'm just in love with the whole situation over there. But you know, when I went out and played the new course, uh, I had this like really old gruff scottish caddy exactly what I wanted.
Speaker 2:He was so awesome like it's a big part of the experience over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but he didn't like this was a real one like he didn't play around.
Speaker 2:He knew what he was doing yeah, like a real gruff one.
Speaker 1:So we're like maybe four, five holes into this and I'm playing just fine and he's happy that he's not in the gore. So you know, everything's going fine and I I miss this screen. I just kind of, like you know, it kind of hits a little knob that I didn't see and it gets a little off the green. I got this little like pitch shot. So I grab a hat, he's got my bag and I take the uh sand wedge out of the bag and I kind of lay the face open a little bit and I'm getting ready to kind of fly it in there with some spin and kind of stop it near the very Americanized golf shot. Right, yeah, right. So I'm kind of sitting there.
Speaker 2:What are you doing, lad?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm kind of sitting there and I'm thinking about it and I'm kind of going through it and I go, hey, come here and he comes back and I grab my gap wedge and I play it back in my stance because I kind of see like I could hit this shot, that I know how to hit and want to hit. But want to hit but like there's a way, easier shot, just bump it and run it in there. Man, like you don't need to take on the chance that that doesn't spin and catch the green the way you think and like, and I just kind of hit this little bump shot. That was really nice. It almost went in just kind of foot from the hole in the caddy at like literally we're walking to the next team. He's like I lad, that was a smart decision, like you know, like and gave me like the rub and like actually is that like the?
Speaker 2:best. Is it not the best feeling in the world to get a compliment from a caddy overseas?
Speaker 1:yeah, because they know my own version of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I just I really hit it nicely in very windy conditions in ireland. The guy put his hand on my shoulder I didn't put very well that day and he looked me in the eye and he said you hit a nice ball, michael. I was like I'm not. I want this feeling to last forever, okay.
Speaker 1:I wasn't going to say, I wasn't going to tell anybody this, but I'll tell you.
Speaker 2:Your psychoanalyst is drawing out your deeper.
Speaker 1:Draw it out so, believe it or not, I kid you not. We actually had the flights booked. We were supposed to go to himenji, japan, in april. Wow, and the reason we were going was to tour the mirror facility. Nice, so like it's very old world. It's unreal. It's like a of all the places that I would like to go in the world. This was it right like. This is my little dream.
Speaker 1:I've watched a video of the place 15 times, so so in my mind when and where I, I practice like hard for like three months and I'm thinking to myself like if I get into that room with Mirasan and he's just having me hit, like I'm not going to dishonor my family, I'm going to get the blade and I'm staying in the blade, I'm not letting them take me out of the blade. So like I just had this, like I want to get to this moment in time where I'm there with Mirasan in that room and he's just crouched and he gives you nothing. You know what I mean? Just nothing. And I just wanted to do that so bad.
Speaker 2:And then not even an eyelid nothing.
Speaker 1:And then unfortunately, obviously you know, the trip got canceled, Uh, and then obviously he just passed away, which is terrible, Um, so we're not going to get to do that to your point like yeah real, you know, I, I kind of like this, you know, saying real recognizes real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and and when, when you get that rub from somebody that you respect, it's like there's not a better feeling and and definitely I think, for our souls as golfers, having an old, you know, grizzled caddy from from the motherland give you the wink is like makes you feel pretty, pretty good.
Speaker 2:It's better than good. It's better than most. I mean, it's not as good as it is. Yeah, it makes me think of something real recognizes, real. This really is a thing.
Speaker 2:Let's say you're an elite junior player, you're, you're, you're, you're, you know you're. You're on your way to play college golf. You're known in your community, right, you're known. Of course I'm, I'm gonna say it and I know, you know this is true. And you're, let's say, you're just practicing at the range, some like dad who's to help. But can you believe? Remember, I'm a therapist times 20 years.
Speaker 2:I end up, what is mental coaching? You're saying what do you do? I said I help people politely but firmly. Tell this man that they have an instructor. They appreciate that he wants to help, but you know they're gonna. They're gonna gonna carry on their practice session, right, it's like they need to know how not to get drawn into a conversation for 32 minutes with a grownup giving them swing advice and this guy's like a plus four handicap at 17. It's really fascinating.
Speaker 2:So what I'm saying is I go wherever we need to go and the the management of your, of the social environment, or some I often will. This is actually gospel when I go into a session with an elite player, I always first say how are you? This is important and it's intentional because they're a person first and a golfer second. And once you, what, if what's the only thing? People say hey, sammy, what'd you shoot? All the matters? And they. I think it's a very important signal that I'm interested in them as a person first and that obviously we're there to get into everything. And they themselves can sort of reduce themselves to the last thing they shot. And there's lore, right, even Rory, saying for too long I carried around what I recently shot.
Speaker 1:But we talk about compartmentalization a lot with that right and it's you know I always use the analogy of your head is kind of the attic, and in that attic is a lot of years of boxes of things from you know the past and one of the things that I think is important with the young people and I really don't think you can teach this skill early enough to your kids. But you have a big treasure trunk up there in that attic and it's locked and it's like the box and that box inside of it contains your self-worth and you have to keep that box in its own corner in the attic. And then the box that says golfer, the box that says brother, sister, mother, whatever right.
Speaker 1:Don't remove all the other boxes, right? Nope, they stay in their own little corners, right, and we keep the boxes separated. But we can blend some of the boxes from time to time, but the one we can never blend and never open is that self-confidence box. Like we have to hang on to that and like I always tell players I don't give a shit how scared you are on the golf course you need to be able to tell yourself in the moment that you've done this for a long time, you're not going to forget how to do it all of a sudden and you know how to hit a golf shot, like hit the golf shot right, the only way that do it.
Speaker 2:Talk about mental game. We're talking about mental game today. What's great mental game includes? You can do this, telling yourself you can do this, you Telling yourself you can do this, you've done it a thousand times is elite mental game. You know why? Because the best model that I have found so far is called Optimal by Gabrielle Wolf out of UNLV, and she's extensively studied what variables actually matter in peak performance across motor learning pursuits, and that includes golf. It includes golf, tennis. She's tested everything, and so the variable that comes out is positive expectancy you can do this.
Speaker 2:People say right, because they're so scared. What we're talking about today is how do you perform under real conditions? And they are terrified and saying you can do this, you've hit a ball, done this a thousand times, I'm going to pick my target, I'm going to see the shape and, by the way, everyone sees shapes slightly differently, which is also fun. In the sessions. There's individual style in terms of that and I'm going to try to get to that right. It's really fun to discuss and that telling yourself I can do this and then do it the way you do it and get over it and do it, is excellent. That's a very good way to manage pressure and nerves. You say state the obvious. How much more obvious could it be? I'm asking myself to do something. I'm very good at that. I've done a thousand, 10,000 times and now I'm going to do it. And that's really powerful stuff. It's not just positive thinking, it's affirming a positive expectancy. It's bigger than positive thinking.
Speaker 1:And so I love. I love auto racing, I love any kind of sports competition, I love ballet, I love gymnastics, I love it all Like yeah when I look at performance, performance is performance, is performance.
Speaker 1:You can play a musical piece that's a performance. You can give a sales presentation that's a performance. You can do a job interview that's a performance. Like performance is performance is performance to me, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So the thing that I always find interesting is I'm really a big eye guy, like looking at somebody's eyes, right and where they kind of seem like they are and I was really drawn to this considered still to be the most dangerous track and the players are fairly aware that, like of all the tracks that something might go bad, suzuka is kind of the one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so long story short. Uh, prior to the suzuka race, you know they were showing all the drivers getting ready to get in the cars and like lando norris always kind of looks, kind of like child not not I don't want to say childish, but childlike in terms of like he doesn't like if you saw him on the street you wouldn't assume he's an f1 driver, but like he downright looked afraid. Oh, like, actually looked afraid, and a few of the other like just nobody looked confident. Yeah, but the funny thing is and this is why I love auto racing so much and football and anything to where they put on a helmet. Yeah, when they show the same people's eyes 10 minutes later with the helmets on and them inside the car, there's no fear.
Speaker 2:Right, cause they're doing the thing they're meant to do. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like they've recognized that there's fear and there's potential for things, like they've already. They're done with that. We're into performance state and now we're focused on winning this race and nothing bad is going to happen because I'm going to execute, I'm going to get to that corner first, like and I think that they talk about that a lot and so many of these race car drivers and so many like NFL players are relatively nice guys with no helmet, relatively nice guys with no helmet, but then you put a helmet on them and they turn into something completely else and that's accessing that ability to be in that performative state, however that looks. And I always say you got to fake it till you make it. If you've never won something and you're trying to win something, you can't say, well, I've done this before, that's not going to work because you haven't. But you have to kind of be a little delusional, I think, and kind of fake it till you make it, if you will.
Speaker 1:And that's where I think a lot of young players, you know oh, I don't have my perfect swing today, oh, I just made a bogey, oh, it's just not going to work, no, no, no, no, no, we got to. I'm going to turn this around. I'm going to hey, let let's get it it's. You got to keep kind of prodding yourself to do better. You can't, you can't to go back to what we talked about in the beginning. We can't kind of delve into that lower self. We got to keep trying to access that higher self and perform at a higher level.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you know I would be remiss if I didn't go over something because it's a bedrock of of how I'm doing coaching with players, Because the weird thing is, once you're in that car it's still very dangerous but you're doing your thing and it's in this like continuous right, you know. And golf is weird because you have all this time between the shots you have to sort of reinitiate. I'm capable of that performance mindset and that's what makes golf kind of cool, right, but it's difficult to do. And so for me the best definition of confidence in golf comes from a simple psychological construct called agency, and agency is a feeling that you're up to the task that's before you, so I'm capable of executing what's before me. That that's meaningful, right, like I'm capable of walking. That's not what we mean. We don't have to deal with confidence around walking. But the reason it's so important to select a shot from your repertoire that you can actually execute is it spikes confidence because you have a feeling that you can actually execute that shot. And so, down the stretch, if they have to be delusional or fake it, I love giving them this thing, which is it's a playful thing, but it I mean it how to shoot 65 every day for the rest of your life. Well, I'm going to go through it with you and this is a playful adaptation of like tour stats.
Speaker 2:It's not hit every fairway, it's the first. One is put it in play. If it's in play, a good player can make a birdie from anywhere. Second one is, statistically, anything more than a wedge in your hand. A shot on the green is a good shot. Anything on the green with more than a wedge is a good shot. Wedge it like an assassin. You have got the difference.
Speaker 2:So everybody knows the difference between a professional golfer and a very good golfer is they hit their wedges inside like 12 feet, right and so, because you can make putts inside 10 feet, it's a ball rolling on a regular surface. They don't go in once you get past like nine, 10 feet. That often you got to roll it very well from 10 feet and in right If you hit it close, you got to make them. And then if you miss a green, keep it tidy. Right, you got to get up and down.
Speaker 2:So then when you say down the stretch, when you remind yourself playing great golf involves five tasks Put it in play, hit greens, wedge it close, make short putts and keep it tidy. I then say are you capable of doing those five things? And they say yes, and then I get to make my joke, which is no, you're one of the best, you're at one, you are among the best people in the world. You are so fucking good at those five things. Down the stretch, remind yourself I am so good because there's nobody blocking you from. I always say, if LeBron James was guarding you, you wouldn't call agency, but there's nothing stopping you from doing something you are so good at.
Speaker 1:We talk about this all the time.
Speaker 2:That helps people. I don't want to overstate what I've done so far in my career, but I have helped people get that first win at multiple you're not, you're not overstating something there, because that's that's.
Speaker 1:What people don't understand is that in our minds there's always a gatekeeper, there's always a reason like we have to protect our ego, right? So there's always this gatekeeper that's keeping us down and not letting us live up to our potential, and, in my opinion, the only competition anybody actually has is their own potential. So, with that being said, what keeps us from that potential is this gatekeeper mentality and, like you're saying, there's nothing in the way.
Speaker 1:If you have set reasonable goals that are obtainable. There's no gatekeeper situation. It's on you to find a way to live up to your potential, and it doesn't mean that you have to do anything perfect. It doesn't mean that you have to do anything better than you're already on pace to do it. You just have to keep doing you and living up to your potential.
Speaker 2:So I feel like what helps with the. It's true, you have to fake it until you make it, which is more at the emotional level, You're going to feel uncomfortable outside your comfort zone, but then, connecting them to you have to keep doing exactly what you've done your whole life and you're really, really, really, really, really good at. I said can you hit a ball on the green from 157 yards in the middle of the fairway? They say yeah, and so the trappings of if I you know, if I par here, by the way, if I par here future, so they also train themselves awareness of, awareness of the future, which I talked about with worry. So if that's an important thing for elite players, if I just par in, I shoot 65, I win by two. No bueno, no bueno, Right.
Speaker 2:That's a risk averse style of mindset which is not in the present anymore. You know that. But but. But this is what like. Why do people have to come to me more than once? Is that's a skill?
Speaker 2:Noticing, if I par in, I'll shoot 67 is sort of a skill that experientially needs to be done and practiced, and done under real conditions and so fake it until you make. It is about, I would say, is the emotional reality is very stressful. But then saying, are you capable of hitting a ball on a green with a stick? And they smile, they say that's your job. So that spikes agency, which is they're capable of doing the thing that they need to do, and then their confidence goes up. So it's a fun sequence of developing their I call championship mindset for how to get it done early on.
Speaker 2:Like you don't this, you know the old idea that well, you got to be there a lot of times. I would disagree and I have a little bit of evidence that I've helped people get it done faster. And, and the main I would say, the two prong thing is right is the emotional regulation that have to keep it within a zone of tolerance and really driving mindset through agency, which is I feel like I'm capable of doing the thing, I'm equipped to do, the thing I need to do to achieve my goal, which is hit a ball on the green and, you know, roll it into or near a hole. Talk about stating the obvious and keeping it simple has really helped people go further with their ability to finish events or rounds and tournaments faster, um, than you might think. Oh, they haven't done this a lot and it's been very, very exciting.
Speaker 1:And I think it's interesting too right. It's like we've talked a lot about a lot of the different skill sets that go into. You know this elite performance when it comes to our mental um, our mental performance on the golf course. But you know there's things that happen right, and you know I think a curious case that I'm kind of keeping an eye on is Nick Dunlap.
Speaker 1:You know Nick has come out on tour and won as an amateur and nobody had done that before. And then he went to the professional in his first rookie campaign and he's got two wins on the PGA Tour and then goes out and fires. You know hadn't been playing well prior to that but then fires, you know, at 90 at Augusta national and it's. You know, I look at that kid and I I feel bad because I see somebody who isn't going through growing pains. I see somebody who looks defeated and looks lost. And that's where you know the ability to regulate and to separate his identity from Nick Dunlop. You know, sensational start to a PGA tour career and, like 19, 20 year old kid from you know that went to Alabama trying to figure out tour life for the first time.
Speaker 2:Amazing. He got it done that first time. It's funny you bring him up because I presented on him to a coaches summit where I gave a talk and I used him as the sort of counter example to Tiger, the sort of steely mask, you know, sort of just controlling oneself and the moment. And I even like transcribe what he said afterwards. And you know, I think this is very interesting, that I would say he had more of like a Eastern philosophy style, which he was very like accepting of his vulnerability and the fluidity of the moment. And I have, I can bring it, I mean I could send it to you. It's beautiful.
Speaker 2:He says he was really embodying this idea, that it was the most nervous I've ever been. I didn't know what was going to happen but I was just going to keep sort of trying to do the best I could and no matter think about agency, no matter the outcome he's already accepted any outcome no matter the outcome, I'm going to learn it's going to be an amazing experience. You see how you're sort of saying he said you know, a lot of people don't even get this chance. It wasn't like I'm the best I'm, you know, patrick Reed, I'm the, I'm a top five player in the world. I love that.
Speaker 2:I present on that too, because confidence and narcissism in golf is complicated, because we want you to be humble but then we want you to say every time I tee it up, I want to win.
Speaker 2:So I write about that contradiction and have presented on it. But with Dunlap this, I sense that like I don't really. He kept saying I am aware that I'm in such an extreme moment here and I was accepting of that. He was like pliant and vulnerable and receptive to it and he managed to execute and I thought it was such a fascinating counterpoint to something that's more like you know, assertive and I'm the master of my domain, him and through him. I thought it was very beautiful and very often not emphasized that this guy won a PGA Tour event the first chance he got and when they interviewed him, he was so candid about saying many other guys are great players, I don't know how many chances, rather than saying he said I don't know how many chances like this I'll get. There's something so remarkable about that vulnerability and trust there that I was really very moved as a psychologist, to be frank, and I presented about this, as this is in the realm of high performance.
Speaker 1:For sure, no doubt about it, I mean it's who talk in that, but we would.
Speaker 2:That is not what is taught or what has right. So, to widen what is possible.
Speaker 1:Well, I think Scotty hits on that some too, man.
Speaker 2:Managing the level of pressure and stress.
Speaker 1:Well, I think Scotty also like he's never demonstrative in a, in a press conference, and he's never like I'm the man or we're working harder than everybody else his style is so fascinating.
Speaker 2:I mean I have a take on it. If you want, sure hit it, okay. So, like dj, they said he used to be fun, he said he was hot tempered and scheffler has said I used to get really upset and you know my emotions and partially I think, through his spirituality and his you know his, his religious affiliation and faith I really think he means it, that he's not. Golf is life. It means everything. It's not quite that, it means nothing, but when he looks you in the eye and says I don't care if I shoot 60 or 80 today, because when I go home my wife's going to kiss me and my baby's going to be happy to see me, he means it. So how do you beat a guy who, paradoxically, is a fierce competitor and enjoys, I see, like it's very, it's new, this is new. So people want to know, in my opinion I've thought about this a lot how could he be Tiger like? But he's Scotty Scheffler individuality, he doesn't care and he is going to fight you to the death.
Speaker 1:It's unreal. I'll tell you right now. Go back to the Olympics. It's the 13th or 14th hole. He makes a birdie and him and Ted Scott say something to one another and you can almost see Scotty change right then and there, and something for him clicked and Ted said the right thing, as Ted's been known to do.
Speaker 2:I don't know, Ted. My sense is this guy probably is one of the greatest caddies who ever walked the planet.
Speaker 1:I think so too.
Speaker 2:And I think he should get more credit. I don't know what that means exactly, but let's say it this way that team is magnificent.
Speaker 1:With Randy. Like here's the thing that gets no credit. Okay, scotty has been with Randy since he was a child.
Speaker 2:I think seven years of age.
Speaker 1:He's so loyal.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Right but hang on it gets better. I know a lot of coaches who have developed players to the point where they get to play on tour. They are hyper protective of their kids because it's literally like their kid, and I would say the greatest downfall in this particular situation typically is that the player needs to continue to get better. The coach doesn't have better skills to give them and then the player doesn't get the help they need. Wow, in this particular case, mr Scheffler needed some help with his putting. Yeah, randy didn't sit there and go. Well, I know what I'm talking about and you just need to pop better. None of that happened. They went and got Phil Kenyon, by most considered to be the best putting coach in the world. They put Phil on the team and here's what I'll tell you that I've observed with both my eyes Right. I've personally observed this yeah.
Speaker 1:Anytime, and I mean this, yeah, anytime, and I mean this anytime that I've ever seen Scotty out on the putting green with Phil Randy's right there. That's right, and it's not dominating the conversation.
Speaker 1:Just trying to make sure that he's understanding what Scotty's hearing, because Randy knows at the end of the day he's the primary coach. He's got to be able to triage whatever is going on between Phil and Scotty to Scotty, should he need to Dude. There's no ego. Randy didn't sit there and go oh, he's going to leave me now. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've talked to Randy about that. It shows unbelievable leadership by Randy, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:I wrote down the word. A great instructor at that level is a leader and, as it can delegate and that is beautifully said I, I, I love that and I think that it takes enormous trust in the relationship and, like you're saying, like a, you know you're coaching the best player in the world and he says the guy needs not needs to, would benefit from seeing somebody that maybe even matches his style, who will help him with the putting. There is something very beautiful about that.
Speaker 1:It's unreal. So well we went, we've talked, we've covered performance a whole bunch of different ways and this has been fun. I'm glad we did this. This is great. Yeah, so how do people find you on social media and the internet and all of that fun stuff? Should they want to learn more about one, dr Michael Klein?
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, they. If people are interested in seeing me for a consultation and coaching, uh, they can just email me at Michael Klein PhD at gmailcom. That's all one word and I'm sure that'll be in the. You know, I'll get in the notes. Hello, yep, and uh, my website is care. Okay, this is fun. It's charactersportcom, and my wife is like nobody's going to know how to spell it. I was like it's so off that everybody will remember. So it's character with two Ks, so it's K-H-A-R-A-K-T-E-R, sportcom. And again, that comes from the Greek about individuality. And on Instagram and I'm doing more with that, I'm just going to make sure I get the handle right, because that is, they can reach me there at character, underscore sport, underscore psychology.
Speaker 1:That's a long one.
Speaker 2:Underscore sport, underscore psychology. That's a long one.
Speaker 1:Underscore sport, underscore psychology back in the 160 character day, like most of the message would have been just your, your tagline there so the social media, it's coming along.
Speaker 2:We're doing some fun stuff. You know, the the nice thing is do more of it.
Speaker 1:You're great at it, man. Like you've got such a great passion and you're so excited about what you do. You definitely don't work a job like I don't work a job, so do the social media. Point a camera on yourself and this is maybe where you can like really let it get over overstimulated and overregulated. Instead of doing that on the golf course, you can just do it on a, on a social media platform. So I want to thank you so much for like just taking the time. Man, like I don't think you've held any punches. I don't think I've held any punches. Uh, so it feels like it's been a great episode. I'm so thankful for everybody who's listened. Uh, thank you again for the support. If you are interested in watching the video of this, you can find it on the Measured Golf YouTube. You can also find this podcast anywhere you download podcasts by searching Measured Golf and, as Dr Michael Klein said, you can find him through Character Sport with 2Ks. So thanks again, Thanks for listening and until next time, keep grinding.
