Season Seven, New Co-Host, Bigger Vision

A fresh season needs a bolder promise: clearer answers, fewer buzzwords, and coaching that actually holds up under pressure. We’re welcoming Chuck as co-host to balance the lab with the fairway—Michael brings force plates, 3D motion, and years of tour consulting; Chuck brings a relentless curiosity and the voice of the committed golfer chasing real gains. Together we break down why modern golf is a different problem than the one classic books solved, and how to turn complex data into decisions you can trust.

We start with the shift from Balata to urethane and what that means for your swing. Less spin and a higher speed ceiling demand not just power, but brakes—how you load, post, and time ground forces so the shaft realigns and the face delivers consistent loft and start lines. Force plates reveal that “fingerprint” across driver, irons, and wedges. When one club’s capture goes rogue, it often signals intention or strategy, not a broken move. That insight leads to a tour story where the fix wasn’t mechanics at all: keep the fairway finder on tight targets and save the send-it swing for wide holes that match the pull-draw window.

We also get real about coaching. Michael draws a line between transactional fixes and transformative work that goes over the wall with you. Sometimes the best move is timing changes around the calendar, not through it—echoing lessons from top coaches about when to push and when to wait. For elite players, the hunt is a shot per round. For the rest of us, the win is a predictable pattern, a stock shot with breadcrumbs back to it, and choices that shrink double bogeys without grinding your swing into dust.

Expect more interaction, smarter use of tech, and collaboration over ego—calling in specialists when it helps you score. We’ll tackle listener questions, react to the stories shaping the game, and share new YouTube breakdowns that turn data into feels. Subscribe, share with a golf-obsessed friend, and tell us the one shot you want us to fix next. Your questions drive season seven—what should we dig into for you?

Website : measuredgolf.com 

Instagram : @measuredgolf | @theforceplateguy 

Contact Us : info@measuredgolf.com

Transcript

New Season And Co-Host Reveal

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where we have a new season, which means I have to have a new read-in because I can no longer say that you, the listener, are joining just me, Michael. Because while you are joining Michael, we also have a new person on the podcast, a new host, if you will, co-host, I guess, would be more the appropriate term. But this is the start of season seven, which is pretty crazy because I never in a million years driving in my old Honda Accord down the road, like waxing poetically into the voice memos app, thought that I would get to seven seasons or anybody would listen. Yet here we are. And in an effort to make the podcast better, make it more fun, make it more interactive, uh, we have brought in a very good friend of mine by the name of Chuck Hudson, who is the only kind of friend I have. He's a client. What's that say about me? But we'll get to that later. But we've got none other than Mr. Chuck Hudson joining the podcast as an official co-host. He's going to be here for the whole season. Uh, I'm really excited about it because Chuck is definitely on my podium of biggest golf siccos I've ever met in my entire life. So uh I'm excited to have Chuck. Chuck, I hope you're excited to be here. And uh yeah, why don't you uh kind of start letting people know what kind of golf sicko you are?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Man, I am just so humbled to be invited to do this. Uh when you pose the question of, hey, here's my thoughts. Um, I was pretty shocked. And uh, but but obviously excited and honored to be considered for this. Uh, you know, there's no co-hosting.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

There wasn't a big list, so don't get too excited. You were you were the only only one I I offered it to. So don't feel like you beat anybody out. It was just you.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Well, that's uh that's okay. I'll take that. But you're but you're the talent. I'm there is no co-hosting. I I'm just the little host. You are the talent. This is what everyone has come to hear is the great Michael Dutro, the force plate guy.

Why Add Chuck And What He Brings

SPEAKER_01 2:09

If you call me talent one more time and my wife hears this, she's going to get very angry at you because that's only going to make my ego worse. So uh yeah, I mean, but you know, we talked about this um when I kind of proposed, you know, to you. I got down on one knee and asked you to join the podcast. Uh, but we kind of talked about this, and I live in a coaching world and trying to fix golf swings and doing research with ground reaction forces and 3D motion capture and things like that. And I don't know that what I think is interesting is what the golfing public is interested in. And I think that's where you bring a very unique perspective because I mean, it's it's not only that you play a lot of golf or practice a lot, which you do both, uh, but it's also, you know, you're a member of a very nice club. Uh, I don't know if you want to share where that is or not, but you're a member of a very nice club, you play a lot of nice golf courses, you get around. Uh, and I'm not talking about your personal life, just your golf life. But uh, you know, I I think that you bring a really good perspective to this. And my goal for all of this is that, you know, maybe we don't make it so specific and so kind of what I'm interested in, and you can kind of let me know like where the golfers are at and what they're thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yeah, I think um before you ever asked me to do this, we were discussing podcasts, and we were discussing your podcast and then podcasts you've been on, and you were really downplaying these other, oh man, I went on somebody's podcast, I think it was terrible. And then I go listen to it. I'm like, no, that's awesome. Y'all are just having this dialogue and people are asking questions, and it's not um, it's not just a from a script. And I thought that those were always the best type of podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Is this the point we should tell everybody we don't have a script?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

There is no script.

No Script, More Conversation, More Interaction

SPEAKER_01 4:10

There is no script, nothing is scripted. Chuck was very nervous to start this, and he's like, What do you want to talk about? I was like, I don't know, man. We'll we'll just wing it and figure it out. But honestly, that's what the podcast has always kind of been. Like, maybe I have a thought or an idea as to what I'm gonna kind of start talking about. But, you know, screaming into the void, as I've termed it, um, you know, for an hour, you kind of hit a lot of different things. But that's where I think that this can really be a lot better, is it's way more conversational, uh, way more hopefully engaging for those listening. And, you know, at some point, and we're gonna figure this out. So if you're listening uh to this podcast, there we're gonna figure out a way to make this more interactive somewhere or another. So whether it's reaching out to me directly, reaching out to Chuck, uh if you have questions, if there's if there's topics that you want to hear about, uh, if there's some big golf news, we're we're gonna probably talk about it. But if it's something that you really want to hear us talk about or have you know more questions about, then please reach out to either one of us because we want to do this and make it to where people take something away from it that that benefits their golf game.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, I agree. I I think making it interactive is the way we want to go. That that's um listening to the questions and the uh comments that people have or what they want to hear. That's what I think these podcasts are all about. And they get access to you, uh you, Michael Dutro, that um uh I've been really blessed to have the opportunity to be around some uh some really great coaches that I have worked with, um Mark Blackburn, John Tattersaw, who uh really good coaches, great coaches that I'm still close with, friends with. Um but uh the way that you can explain things, at least for me, has been so eye-opening. And so I hope that everyone listening gets the same benefit that I have of just being able to pick your brain.

Making Tech Useful: Force Plates Explained

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yeah, I mean, luckily for you guys, I legitimately failed math 101 at a directionally named college four times. Like, I mean, I dude, I'll never forget um 2019 uh Bioswing Dynamic Summit with Mr. Mike Adams, Mr. Terry Rolls, Mr. E. A. Tischler, uh, some real heavy hitters. Uh, and I was sitting in the front row, man, just like super green. Uh I owned force plates, I owned a track man, uh, but I I didn't know what I was doing. You know, like I was kind of grasping at straws and and I like I'm I try to be somewhat aware and objective about where I am and what I know and what I offer people. And I just remember like sitting in the front row of that thing going, holy smokes, like this is wild. Um, you know, we're looking at graphs, we're we're looking at data sets, we're looking at all this stuff. And I just was totally, I felt at the time very overmatched and just didn't really understand any of it. And, you know, I I don't have I I like I said, I have a I have a four-year bachelor's degree, which took me eight years to get from a directionally named college. Um, you know, I wasn't the best of students, uh, which I I think I kind of understand why I wasn't the best of students now. I don't think I'm like a I don't think I'm an idiot, uh, but I think I have to be motivated to want to learn something. And when Mr. Adams told us in 2019 to invest in ourselves and ask better questions, I took that to heart. And uh, you know, for me, the journey has, you know, led me into learning a lot of things I would have never in a million years put on my bingo card as something that I'm I was going to learn. Uh, but because I don't have that background, because I don't come from academia, because I don't really have a formalized kind of way of doing this, you know, I've I've kind of had to figure it out and be able to explain it to myself. Uh and then being able to explain it to myself, you know, then I can explain it to other people. And, you know, I hit a I I hit a fair amount of golf balls on I've been actually practicing, which you'll be very proud to hear. But I'm so proud to hear that. Yeah, right. But a lot of it's you know, getting on the force plates and trying to make the graph do something else and and understanding what that feels like and understanding, you know, where the player's coming from. And I'm gonna steal one from Dr. Greg Rose. Uh, but you know, having the force plates and and obviously being quote unquote the force plate guy, having force plates allows me as a coach to understand what you're feeling when you're swinging the golf club. And if I can put myself into your shoes and understand what you're feeling, then you know I can I can come up with these drills. I can come up with stuff to get you to kind of feel it in a different way or explain it in a different way. Because, like you're saying, it's it's it's really it's not what you know, it's what you can explain. You know, I guess that's that's and and and the thing you got to realize too is you're dealing with different people all the time. You know, I I teach a pretty high volume of of lessons, and I get a lot of different personality types, I get a lot of people with different backgrounds, and I can explain it perfectly well to one person in a in a way, and then if I try to use that same explanation on the next person, it might not work. So you have to have a lot of different ways, a lot of different analogies. But I I do think that you know the industry at large, and then I'm not here to blast the industry, but I think the industry at large is is really trying to get more educated. I think they're trying to look deeper and use some of these advanced tools like force plates and 3D motion capture. But, you know, I think a lot of times these coaches get this tech, they want to see a return on investment, and they start using it before they're ready and before they can explain some of this stuff. And I'm not talking about any of the coaches that you mentioned, those guys obviously uh really know their stuff, really, you know, I've learned so much from John Tattersall and Mark Blackburn over the years. John, especially with his force plate work that he does. Um, but yeah, I mean it it's it's what can you what can you actually get the client to do in front of you? And if if you can't make the like if you're gonna point something out to somebody and you can't change that thing, like that's the worst place to be ever because now both of you are frustrated and feel hopeless.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah. Well, I think it also helps that you've you've played at a pretty high level yourself.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So at uh at Louisville, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. So I think that also is helpful that you've been there, you know what we're going through, the player, um, and you're also coaching other coaches. So you've you've got both you've got both sides of how how are we solving the problem. And I think you proposed the best. I never heard it this way, and and I've heard you say it a couple other times in a podcast, but the how the industry is advancing everyone's figured out that or starting to figure out that we're solving a different problem than the Balata golf ball. And I've I've heard you talk about that. Maybe you can just briefly hit how it's different now than it was then, and how this tech has really started to open the eyes of people that, yeah, it's a totally different equation that we've got to solve.

From Balata To Urethane: The New Swing Problem

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, we've talked about it at length, and you know, be visiting you and you being so gracious to have me down to your club and getting to work with some people. You know, a lot of people come to me and they go, Well, what about Ben Hogan and his Five Lessons? Or what about Harvey Peeneck's Little Red Book, or what about Jack Nicholas's Play My Way? And a lot of the golf literature, the golf books that have been written over the years, um, you know, that are kind of considered these holy grail, these holy artifacts within the golf instruction community, you know, they were solving a different problem. And what I mean by that is, you know, the technology that we play with has changed significantly. So kind of going back to pre-2000, uh before really the Pro V1 kind of came out, you know, we were playing with Balato Wound golf balls. I mean, I I'm you're a little younger than me, so you might not, you know, have had that experience. But when you were playing with a Balada golf ball, it just wanted to go straight to the moon. That thing spun so much it was crazy. Like it was you spent way more time back then trying to figure out how not to spin a wedge off the green than you do now. Um, and the reason for that was it was a Ballada wound golf ball wanted to spin a lot, and it had a theoretical limit in terms of ball speed of somewhere between 165 and 170 miles an hour. Now, the crazy thing these days is that I have 14, 15-year-old young men who can create 170 mile an hour ball speed. So that that's not world class, but that's all we could do back in the day because of the golf ball basically being this limiter in terms of how hard you could hit it and predict where it was going to go. So now we're playing with this Eurethane golf ball, and it has a theoretical and doesn't want to spin, right? We all we all know that. Like a lot of people see the ball kind of falling out of the sky. But we have this theoretical limit now of like 230 miles an hour. So we went from, let's just use round numbers, 170 miles an hour to 230 miles an hour. Well, man, now we can really hit this thing hard. And now, like the long drive guys are the long drive guys, and we see, you know, people on the PGA tour, you know, uh Potgeeter, I mean, he's like hanging out around 193, you know, trying to play tournament golf. So we see these guys hitting it so harder, so much harder. And, you know, when you when you kind of think about that and you think about the physics behind that, and you think about how speed is generated, you know, we got to kind of think about the engine of this whole thing, which is the human body, and we have to actually start paying more attention to it. And I'm not saying any of the books written back in the day are wrong or don't have good information in them, but they were trying to solve a different equation. And and that's why, you know, guys like Sam Sneed, Chi Chi, all like Lee Trevino, they had all this like kind of crazy action going on. And like you could get away with it back then because you didn't hit the ball very hard. So you didn't really need this advanced braking mechanism that we now kind of look at with the force plates and 3D motion capture and things like that. You just kind of only hit it so hard and you didn't really use your legs nearly as much. But now, as we know, because of the force plates and this other technology that we have, it's dude, that energy's got to come from somewhere. And more importantly, if you're gonna create that kind of energy, you have to be able to slow that energy down or get that energy out of the system. And that's where I think the game is just so much different now. And and I think that's why by and large, we still see so many injuries out there on the PGA tours, because we as an industry are a little slow to adopt change. I mean, in 2003, when the orange box came out and told everybody ball flight was wrong, I mean, that was a hell of a time to be alive. So, I mean, it's just we're very slow at and it's not golf specific, it's it's other sports too. But it's as we get more advanced, as we have better tools, as we have more data, you know, it's it's easier to flush this stuff out than it is to just look at it with your naked eye and go, that looks pretty good to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah. Well, as you and I have seen messing with with the force plates and looking at my own swing. I mean, now you've you're talking about braking and how you're using your legs. I mean, that's that's what's getting the shaft lined up. Like the the braking mechanism is getting all of that line back up to to put the the put the loft back on the club, get the ball flying in the air, unlike unlike the the older generation of golfers that like you're saying were trying to they're trying to lean that shaft like crazy. Well, yeah, you can you your body weight can be running out way ahead of you and doesn't have to have that snap to it.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah. Um I mean it's it's back in the day it was you know lean the crap out of the shaft, de-loft it as much as you could, because the golf ball is going to go up in the air no matter what you did because of the spin rate on that ball. So it just made way more sense to de-oft it to try to get it to go somewhere, uh, without a doubt. So I I definitely think you're right about that. And, you know, I think back to, you know, I really couldn't afford decent golf equipment, you know, probably until like my freshman year high school when I had a job uh and I spent it all on golf clubs um and other things, which is probably why I didn't do so well in school. But that's beside the point. But uh, you know, you'd go into a golf shop, man. It was like six and a half, seven and a half, eight and a half degree drivers. Like you, if you got a high lofted driver, it was nine and a half, and they didn't carry very many of those because only the like seniors would use those begrudgingly. And like you never saw a 10 and a half, 11 and a half degree driver. And now you go into these shops and you know it's ten and a half kind of starting out almost. You see the nine and a half still, but there's like maybe one or two eight degree drivers in the mix, and and generally if if you're going down in loft, like they got to order the thing for you because they're not even gonna stock it.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Right. And I I don't know if I'm jumping around, but that's jump all around, baby.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Let's do it.

Braking, Legs, And Loft Control

SPEAKER_00 17:37

I think you know, I think that's what um just how you and I got together and how how I found you was your proficiency with the force plates. And I was exposed to those um working with John at Tannersaw, and he is he gets it, like gets all the the forces. I mean, he was blowing my mind with information that I was like, that sounds so counterintuitive. Like shaft pulling the shaft up, it's gonna send the head down. There's your attack angle, it's not you know, all these different concepts. And we would we got on the force of plates, and I just my mind was open to this whole other world of oh my gosh, okay, there's there's an immense amount of information that I could do a deep dive on. And um I saw you um on a uh video with uh Parker, short game chef, and even in that, you guys were s were on the force plates and you were getting these measurements, and I thought, wow, that's really interesting that they're even using it. Because you see Greg Rose and the TPI guys, they you know, those little uh videos, those 45-minute long things that are cool. But I was like, wow, here's a guy that's using this with Parker. And if Parker trusts him, um, as he coaches uh a friend of mine, if if he trusts him, then okay, this guy must know his stuff. And then I go do this deep dive on the force plate guy and um listen to a couple podcasts and thought, wow, this is a lot of good information here, and reached out. Um, I was struggling a little bit with my iron play and reached out and uh shocked that I got a response back from guy with a blue check mark by his name, just just some some hack.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

But I'm not gonna lie, your friends at your club like told me about like you and how giddy you were that I'd responded to you.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

I was fired up because I I I'm I am this as you described him, this degenerate of wanting to search and find answers.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Um by the way, just so you know, we pay for the blue check mark. It's it it's not really yeah. We didn't seriously I think the biggest farce in golf is like all these golf coaches have a blue, and I do too. I'm I'm calling myself out here, but you pay a monthly fee for the blue check mark. You do so you not only that, but one thing I will tell you as well, and I've been tempted, I have, I uh full disclosure, I have been tempted. You can buy huge followings, so don't always be misled by the blue check mark and the big followings because a lot of times that's that's kind of a marketing game a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Look at this teaching teaching me the whatever generate. You do not seem the most Instagram savvy, just just so we're I'm not, I'm not either. Um I've I've lost my train of thought. Oh, uh, we were, but yeah, you you responded, and I I've just I was on this journey of just trying to learn more. Just this insatiable, gosh, there's there is so much to this that I want to figure out. I I didn't grow up playing golf, and um I was playing football, I was playing basketball, and um I get uh graduating high school, um Keith Mitchell's a very good, very good friend of mine. We grew up together and he was like, Hey man, you you're way too competitive. Like you gotta you've got to pick up golf. Yeah, you gotta try this. And so I put a club in my hand and we started messing around, and lo and behold, I got addicted. So I've been on this journey ever since.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

And you're an accomplished player too, man. Don't sell yourself short. Like I mean you you've played in some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Uh I it's taken a journey to get there, but it's been a fun journey to get to play in some some big events and and things that uh I didn't think were possible and have just kind of worked my way through it.

Equipment Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Um Yeah, but I mean like that's golf in a nutshell, right? Like you know, the thing that I I enjoy the most about golf, I think, is you can have an ugly swing and and shoot a low number. Yeah, you can have bad ground forces and shoot a low number. know like there's there's you know horses for certain tracks and if you find you know if you could have terrible ground forces not hit it very far but we put you on a short tight track and it might it might be your day right um and that's the thing is like I don't know you know even working and I love the fact that you said the word insatiable because that is exactly how I would describe your kind of journey in golf uh without a doubt. But you know I think that's the thing that really makes golf cool is that there's just a lot of ways to get it done. And I've always tried to keep that in the back of my mind that, you know, yeah, maybe we could make the ground forces a little better. Maybe we could make the golf swing you know plane a little better or whatever the case may be. But at the end of the day like you know people have different skills and you you kind of really sell your short but you have an ability to get the ball in the hole. And you know that's that's kind of a lost art in golf these days because everybody just wants to hit it so far and they think that if they hit it far magically their score will go down. Well it it's still it's still got to get the ball in the hole. So I I think that that's what makes it cool and I think that's what keeps guys like you and guys like me so interested with the game because there's always something to learn there's always something to refine. You know I've never played I mean I've played a lot of rounds of golf in my life and I've never once walked off the golf course like that's it. I got every single stroke out of that thing I could have you know and that's I think that's what makes it fun. I think it's what makes it so addicting to people like us.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yes. Yeah I once I once you responded and we had our first initial I mean I may have hit 10 balls in our first hour long eval and I uh I was just so blown away. You spent so much time talking about the body and talking about forces and how they're created and what happens if you get too you know your your hand path gets too far uh behind you and you know all the different cause and effects and I just knew after after that I said man this is it like this is this is the guy that is probably as crazy as I am and wants to learn but here's uh here's something that impressed me with you in this whole situation is and I think I'm okay sharing this and if not I'm sorry you can yell at me off the camera.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

But like you called me and we had like probably an hour and 15 minute conversation because you really cared about your relationship with the coach you came from and you really were looking for some guidance on that. And you know the thing and I've I've told you this um you know most of these relationships that we as coaches have with players they just end and and it's not like a ser ceremoniously it's not like ending ceremoniously it's it's just you don't hear from the person and then three months goes by if you're busy and you're like oh where's that person? Like they're just gone. They just vanish. So I mean I I think that says a lot about you uh and and the way you treat people and you've treated like you've been great with me you know hosting me and making sure I was taken care of and all that like you know I I I appreciate the fact that you know you're a golf nut and and that's obviously what we bond over but as big of a golf nut as you are you're actually a better human. So good on you. Well that's kind it it was that was a hard conversation um that you did help me through I because I was uh genuinely um was upset that I was going to have to tell this guy that I I just felt like I'd hit a wall with him and that I needed to make a change and that was that's and good on him because I told like I told you on the phone before you called that person I was like he's gonna tell you that you need to do what's right for you and I think that's more or less what he said. And good on him man because that's that's where golf coaching I feel like is really messed up and it and it's it's not so much the industry it's just since COVID. You know there's there's been such an influx in golf and there's so much more money in golf than there's ever been at any other point in time. And you know a lot of people you know are side hustling and teaching golf because they play golf or want to be a coach or whatever. But you know we as coaches man like we have to be fiduciaries. We have to do what's right for you as the client as the as the person that's trying to get better. And you know at the end of the day man like I I don't have all the answers um you know your previous coach doesn't like none of us have all the answers right so I don't I don't want to make it about him but none of us have all the answers and and sometimes you do man like you give it your best shot the intentions are good um you're doing everything you can to try to help that player as much as you can but you hit that wall and and you know I've I've had that happen to me. I I always joke you're not you don't coach on tour until you've been fired. You know like you you're gonna you're gonna have that happen. But you know I I have I had a ton of respect for that person um prior to that situation but then seeing how that kind of all played out like I had even more respect for him because it's like okay this is like a real coach that's in it for the and I'm I didn't assume he wasn't but like this is a real coach who's in it for the right reasons and at the end of the day man you got to let that baby bird out of the nest you got to let it fly.

Many Paths To Low Scores

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah no he he was um very gracious um and and the first thing you you said it he was like he just wants you to get better and that's exactly what he said he's he said Chuck I just want you to get better yeah you know whatever you need to do and he said look if you want to come back down the road come back down the road yeah um and as burn bridges that's a good lesson for young people out there don't don't burn your bridges you never know when it's gonna come back and and Chuck might hate me next week he might hate me after this podcast he might you might no but that was and and I've told Michael this that that he and Michael speak the same language. I I just wasn't hearing it and and to Michael's point earlier about how you say things to different people it it just had gotten I just couldn't wrap my head around it and for whatever reason Michael's able to say some things that that resonate with me um and that's been playing well it's been good yeah and been able to help so if if there is somebody out there that's like myself that is is information hungry and wants some help you know Michael is the guy and what what I have appreciated so much about Michael is that and I think I told him this he he caught like we'd had our second lesson or whatever and I'm at work and I get this phone call Michael Dutro look at it and I'm like I picked it up and I was like hello and Michael's like hey checking in what do you think you know it it was this I was blown away that like whoa this guy he's got a million other things going on I'm not at the top of his players list like I'm there's other people he should be talking to why is he calling me to check on me and um and I have have told him I'm very much a relationship person so that meant a lot that Michael was wanting to cultivate this relationship.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

You have to I mean I think if you're gonna do and look I think this is you know I've talked about this on on previous episodes of this podcast but you know there there's really two types of coaches when you get down to it if you if you really get down to brass tacks there's two types of coaches there's transactional coaches and there's transformative coaches. And I I'm I'm terrible at business. I'll be the first one to tell you like thank God for the people that have supported me because without that I would have been out of business years ago. I'm really bad at that part but I'm really good at being a coach and and getting in the trenches with my guys. And I don't take on clients that I don't get in the trenches with or don't want to get in the trenches with uh because you have to like if if somebody is you know not like I mean I just always think of like my dad right like my dad wouldn't ask another guy for help to save his life um you know that he was that type you know he'd be driving around lost for three hours and just couldn't ask somebody where something was like that was against his like moral code. So like I always understand that when you know and and generally you know it's a it's a male dominated industry most of the people I teach are male. And when older males are asking a younger male for help like they're there they're already down you know like this is a last resort for them. And I understand that right so I think if if you're going to you know take that on and you're gonna identify you know hey man like that this is this is wonky we got to fix this you know and and they're gonna try and they're gonna put in the effort I think you got to support them. Uh and I think you know for me and I've used this analogy with you before but you know we got to get to a place where we're in that trench together and when they call over the wall I'm going with you.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yeah.

Player–Coach Transitions Done Right

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Right? Like I I'm not I'm not gonna sit on the sidelines go, that's on you. Like I and it's it's a problem because you know it'd be a lot better if I only worked with professional players and I know they're putting in the time effort and energy to getting better and doing the work. Uh but even now like I work with a lot of gin pop and uh you know they they don't they they don't you know I have clients who I know never hit a golf ball in between our lessons especially this time of year when it's cold and crappy outside. So like I know that they're not doing the work but I still take it as I'm failing when they don't get better. And that's just that's that level right so I I would much rather be bad at the the transactional side of it and be good at the transformational side of it because I've I've had you know I've been at this just long enough now man to where you know some of my first junior kids you know are growing up they're getting married they're having families um and I'm still part of that man like I'm I'm not teaching them golf you know for the most part they they've long surpassed like chasing down their dreams with golf they're they got jobs they got work they got all kinds of stuff going on but like the fact that I'm still part of that journey and I still get invited to the weddings and you know I they still keep me up to date with what's going on like that means the world to me because this at the end of the day and this is what I always tell people no matter how much tech we get in golf no matter you know how nerdy this turns out being it's still a people business and you you got to take care of the people.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah I remember saying early on in our relationship that man I I love that you're willing to get in the trench with me and you were like no no no we got to go over the wall together. Like I'm not I can't just be in the trench with you. I gotta go with you and um that really stuck with me along with our conversations about um you know your guys that you've coached professionally and how many times especially recently you've gotten phone calls to hey I want you to come be the guy come come coach me and you're like you were like yeah I just don't want to do that. I've got all these other people I can help. And I just think that's um uh something that others should really pay attention to is that you know you're you really want to help a lot of people you really like the relationships you're you're not just going for the big paycheck somewhere and that fame that comes with it you know yeah I mean it it's don't get me wrong like you know at a at a point in my career you know I want to and we're doing it now but you know I want to chase down major championships and you know one of my weird crazy goals for what I do is I want to hold every single major in the same year.

Transactional Vs Transformative Coaching

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I want to be a part of that team that you know wins all four majors in a year on the men's side all five majors for the ladies like I want to have like nine majors in a year. I I I don't think that's ever going to happen but it's still kind of that happened with me to find somebody else other than me but uh you know I mean I I'm very competitive uh and I want my guys to play well and you know well you've coached the best of the best like the names on your in your list is strong yeah I mean I'm very fortunate I get to work with some amazing players um you know a lot of professional players and you know but for me you know it's never been and maybe it's because I had a little bit of it earlier on in my career but I don't I don't need to be the guy out there. I don't need to be known as so and so's coach. Like I'm way happier being this consultant in the background who like provides information. And and one thing that I love the most about what I do and I know this firsthand because I've I've been here and I've done this but it's you know you're you're working with a player okay let's say you're working with a PGA tour player and really what you're trying to do as a coach is not lose your job. Okay. Like that's at the end of the day we all have jobs we all have mortgages we're really trying not to lose our job but you know sometimes the closer you get to something the more blurry it becomes kind of thing. And I think a lot of coaches out there, you know, don't necessarily it's not that they don't know what to do. It's not that they don't have good ideas. It's it's none of those things. It's just you get so close to the thing that eventually you're like you know I don't know what I need to try next with this person. So what I really appreciate about what I get to do is that I get to make that coach look good because you know most of the people that I work with don't even know I exist because I'm I'm talking to their coaches and their coach is like hey you know we're kind of trying to solve this problem right now. These are the things I'm trying it's not really working like what do you think? And for me it's like well get me get me the force plate capture get me the 3D get me the every bit of data you can you know luckily if it's a tour player uh we have all this stroke scanned information that's provided by the tour like we can really dig in and for me it's like hey these these are the two things that are going to make the biggest difference for you uh these are the the two areas that you've got to coach this player through and you know sometimes I can leave it at that and the coach can take it from there. And then there's also been times to where the coach is like I don't I don't know how to get them to do that. What would you do? And then I kind of get to like quasi-coach through the coach which is really cool too. But at the end of the day man it's it's really about you know making that coach look good at his job. But I think that coach deserves to look good at his job because he was smart enough to ask for help. And that's where I think a lot of young coaches especially me as a young coach I never wanted anybody to see what I was doing. Like I was always like super you know trying to hide what I was doing and I didn't really want it out there because I I mean we're all afraid of like you know not doing the right thing saying the right thing but you know as I've gotten older man like Parker you brought up earlier Parker McLaughlin short game chef one of the freaking best people I know um I have no problem sending somebody to him like none. Like if somebody calls me up and they're like hey struggling out of the bunkers I'm struggling you know hitting this little four yard pitch shot whatever dude go Parker like he's the man at that like he's so much better at that than me it's crazy. Now you know I have strengths and he has strengths but when we put those strengths together we're just really doing what's in the best case scenario for that client and like I said I try to be a golf fiduciary so if I can line line it up for people and and and pass them off to somebody that's really good at that thing I don't ever think that makes me look bad I actually think that makes me look better in in the eyes of the client.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah absolutely I mean there was a you just did some consulting for a very very big name recently and and gave some information uh what did they send you force plate data and you were kind of reviewing that I don't know how much you can speak but maybe you can just speak what what you were doing slash looking at um for that person and the info you gave yeah I mean it's it's always like one of two things.

Consulting For Tour Players Without The Spotlight

SPEAKER_01 38:43

It's either the ball flight issue or a pain issue, right? So like that's generally when I get a phone call uh and I'm not sure exactly which case you're talking about but one of the cases um you know I had a had a player that you know probably was in trouble uh with keeping their card this year if things didn't turn around pretty quickly and basically what we figured out is he spent quite a bit of time uh last year kind of trying to hit it farther and harder and it really kind of bled through the bag in not such a positive way and and really kind of you know I I think the thing that people don't always understand is there's like a stock swing and then there's trying to hit one hard. And anytime we go down the hit one hard kind of road like we got to remember where stock is like we got to leave some breadcrumbs so we know how to get back to stock and hit that fairway finder. Uh and I think in this case, you know, it was pretty obvious in the force plate stuff that something wasn't right because generally when you look at force plate captures and you go from like driver to iron to wedge, what you tend to see is it looks pretty similar. The magnitudes are a little bigger but generally things more or less look the same. So and you and you mean look the same as the sequence looks the same as what the sequence is going to be the same but then the shape of the curves is going to be pretty similar as well. The magnitudes might be bigger but generally the sequencing and the shape of the curves is is generally looking pretty close to it's kind of a fingerprint almost in a way and the time and the timing of those when they happen yeah yeah and when they when they had sent me over the info um the driver just looked crazy different than the iron and wedge capture that they sent me like crazy different. So you know that kind of makes me ask questions and I'm like okay it was which you wouldn't have seen with the naked eye. I don't think so needed the need I wouldn't have I I can answer that that I wouldn't have seen it. Yeah um so long story short I I sent them back an email and I said you know hey uh next time you can get a capture with this player I don't want to say anything yet because I I I have these questions and I got to answer these questions before I can kind of offer any kind of input but you know I said next time you're with this player and you can get a capture for me and luckily they live pretty close to a friend of mine uh his facility where he has force blades so they can do this pretty quick. But I was like get him just to hit a fairway finder for me like with his driver and they sent me that and I was like oh okay cool like this makes sense now. So the big thing for this player was it's kind of like getting a new toy right like we want to play with it. So he has this ability now because of the work they did previously of swinging it six seven eight miles an hour faster um but he doesn't really have the restraint to not try to use it every single time. Oh yeah no I I get that why would you not want to hit it why would you not want to carry it 20 yards more right 100% I would I mean so you know the the the real fun thing about that was you know we could have chased technique we could have done a lot of different things that I think traditional golf coaching would have kind of told us to do but it was really just a conversation about strategy um and you know having a conversation with him uh and his caddy um and kind of just like hey you know when we kind of when we game plan these rounds out you know if it's a wide open kind of deal and you want to send one go for it by all means like take advantage of the extra distance you have but also understand like you know and it was funny too because the the extra speed not only does the ball go farther but it curves different so when he tries to send one he kind of hits more of like a pull draw a little bit so he kind of starts at just a hair left and it tends to fall left. It doesn't snap on him you know it's okay it's like a safe shot but it just kind of starts pretty straight to slightly left and falls left versus his stock driver which kind of matches more his irons as well to where they kind of fall more to the right. He likes to see the ball kind of work left to right. So you know if we find one of these scenarios on the golf course to where there's really no trouble we got a a wide landing area and you can kind of fit that shot shape into that hole then all by all means use it. But at the same time like if you find yourself on a tight hole you know I would recommend like let's hit the stock one that we know is going to fade and kind of play it down the left hand side and let it work its way back to the middle assuming we don't have to get on one side of the fairway or the other for the pen. So I think you know it's it's just interesting stuff like that that I don't think that we really I think we're a lot of times as coaches grasping at straws and and trying to solve problem after problem after problem. But I think with the analysis with the tools we have now I don't think that you always have to like treat every problem the same like sometimes there's a problem you got to like make a technique change with but then there's a lot of problems you can change just by having a conversation and and get the concept right in their head.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Mm-hmm and that is at least from my experience working with you you're the first thing you want you're like hey before we ever meet I need a capture of this and this on the force plates and um Um, I thought it was very unique and cool that the first eval where we sit down, you you've already looked at it. You looked at it, you've gotten your thoughts, and it's not me or the client sitting there for 30 minutes while you hit balls and you try and make an assumption. Like you've measured it. Like, hey, here's what I see. I've I've looked at it. Here's what the data's telling me, here's where I think we should go. And it was funny how quickly you pinpointed without me really even getting into my game, you kind of quickly pinpointed, well, here's what I think your shot probably looks like, or your miss looks like, or issues you might be having with your body. Um, so that was uh the the story you just talked about was a guy needing to keep his card. There was another one uh who was not at all in danger of keeping his card. What do you and the coach reaches out and he sends you this information? What what do you do with that guy where I mean he's striping it and they they reach out and they want to know and how what did you look at? Were you nervous to say much? Did um again, he's not in danger of losing that card.

When To Chase Speed And When To Club Down

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, I think I know who you're talking about now. Um yeah, I mean, it it's it's always tough because if they're not in danger of losing their card and they're playing at a high level, you know, do you really want to rock the boat kind of thing, right? Because, you know, even though you're telling them maybe something that's actually better and you're telling them something that makes more sense um than what they're currently doing, it's they're doing what they're doing at a high level um and pulling it off, obviously, and having success. So I think, you know, I I just always go, hey, you know, and I honestly, you know, whether they're ranked, you know, 10th in the world or they're ranked not in the world or they're gin pop coming in the door, like for me, especially at that level, you know, I'm just reading data. Like I'm I'm in the plates, I'm in some 3D if they have that available, I'm in the stats if they have that available. And it's like, where's the low-hanging fruit? Like, where's you know, for that particular player, it's like, you know, we're looking for really a shot per round. Like that's kind of what we're looking for. Like, that's how small it is. It's nothing glaring. It's it's just like, dude, what is it that makes that double happen every now and then or put potentially puts you in harm of making a double? Like, what's the the double cross? You know, like that's a very generic, generic term out there. But like, what is it that that causes this hiccup? And you know, I kind of consider myself to be a bit of a truffle dog. And once I have that information, like I I never just go unsolicited advice. Like that's that's a bad way to do business. But like if that coach in this case reaches out to me, he's like, hey, here's here's a particular thing we're trying to do. Now I'm like, I've got the scent. So now I'm gonna go find the truffles, and you know, I'm gonna dig into the the 3D, I'm gonna dig into the force plate stuff, I'm gonna dig into the stats and go, okay, well, it's it obviously is kind of happening here at this point, and this is the thing that I would change. But I always tell them too, it's you know, just like I said, just because we have the right answer doesn't mean it's gonna be the right answer for this person.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

So everything's a yeah, I think that's a a unique um look at it that you have of like hey, here's what we could do. Yeah, but I don't know that we should. And I think that's probably the sign of a really, really good coach that just because we can, should we?

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Well, I mean, and I guess kind of I mean it's public knowledge. Um, I don't I'm not talking out of school on this one. Uh, but you look back at, you know, you mentioned Mark Blackburn earlier, who's an amazing golf coach and has tons of tour players and is kind of the gold standard right now in the coaching world, you know, he kind of unceremoniously got fired by Max Homa last year. Right? Like there was a period of time there where Max and and Mark weren't working together anymore. And I I'm a I'm a freak. I like to read a lot of things. But when Mark put his book out, like, you know, I had I got it quick and wanted to read it quick and and see what the nuggets were in there. And he to I think he talks about it in the book. I'm pretty certain he does, but you know, Mark had things that he knew Max had to get better at. Like there were things that Mark wanted and had identified that needed to change within Max's game. However, it's in the middle of the freaking season, and Mark is like, I I don't know, you know, it's like this is the game we play as coaches. Like, should I introduce this here and now and see if it makes a positive impact, or do I want to wait till we have some downtime and kind of ease into this? And Mark made the decision to wait. And, you know, unfortunately, Max didn't play to the level that he wanted to play at. And, you know, as a consequence of that, Mark gets fired. But in the book, Mark kind of talks about like, I still don't feel like I made the wrong choice there. Like, I knew that that needed to be changed, I knew that that needed to be fixed, but I was waiting for a better time to do it. And that's where I'm kind of at with these coaches. I'm like, look, I think if we fix this, that solves your problem. But it also can lend or can kind of lead to these other areas too. And we don't want to solve one problem to make three more problems. Like that's generally a bad combo. So I'm always like, hey, here's what I see, here's what I think. I try to be as objective about it as I can with every every player, no matter who they are, what their pedigree is as a player. And I kind of put it in their court. Like, if you want to try this out, here's some ways we can try this out. If you want to abort on this immediately, I totally respect that decision. Uh, if you want to continue down this road because you see the benefit of that, okay, here's how we're going to reinforce this, and we put it on a timeline and and build a plan. And this is what we're working on for the next few months.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

You know, if if his book is on Audible, no one else but him should be the voice reading that. It's voices. I it's so it's not fair. Like, if I had a British voice, I'd be killing it. He does he may have that on you because that Brit the British voice that he has is just a different. I remember the first time being with him, and I was like just mesmerized by oh, that's the best thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

The British accent's the best accent of all the accents. I I will die on that hill. The British accent is the best accent by far in my book. Uh but hey, I think uh I think we have actually done our first podcast together. I think we're kind of at a good point.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Time flew. Uh like I if if if this is the end of the episode, the the time has flown by. Um again, I'm just so honored to be included. And I'm honored to have you.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

How about that? I'm gonna flip around. I'm honored to have you. I hope that's you know, here's the big reason I and I haven't told him this yet. The big reason that I've invited Chuck to be the co-host of this podcast is because we need to get the YouTube viewership up. And if you get a chance to watch this, you are gonna see the most amazing head of hair that you could possibly see. And I think it's gonna do a lot for our viewership because I I'm not getting any like sponsor endorsements from any like hair care products, but I bet we get one now.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

We do have the uh yeah, we do have that opposite that maybe no hair products for you, maybe for me. Yeah, we do have 100%.

Tiny Edges For Elite Players

SPEAKER_01 51:54

We do have well, I think it's been fun. Uh, I'm excited about this. You know, stick with us, give us a couple episodes to to kind of figure out the timing and the chops of all this, kind of working together on this podcast. But I think it's gonna be significantly better uh than it's been in the past, because like I said, uh Chuck is a very humble, nice gentleman uh and undersells like how involved he is with the game of golf. And I think he's gonna really bring the best out of me, which is what I hope he does. So uh, like I said, if you are unaware, if you're new to the podcast, if season seven is where you are starting your journey with us, we have a whole bunch of stuff. So you can go to measuredgolf.com, which is our website. Everything is linked there. So you're gonna find not only our website and ways to get in touch with me, to ask questions about the podcast or to ask questions about working with me, but you also find our Instagram and our YouTube link as well, uh, as well as the link for this podcast if you're having a hard time finding it, which if you're listening to it and have a hard time finding it, that's a little bit of a weird combo. But hey, we got you covered. But if you're interested in reaching out to us more directly, uh you can find me at measured golf on Instagram or at the forceplate guy, which tends to be a little bit more active. Uh Chuck, what's your Instagram handle? Do you know it off the top of your head?

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah, it's at Hudlow423. It's an old high school nickname.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

That's all right. I like it. So Hudlow423 is how you get a hold of Chuck. If you want to know how to make your hair look as beautiful as his or have questions for the podcast, uh, but the YouTube is gonna be a booming because as you've probably figured out, we're just gonna kind of tick right over into season seven with the podcast so you can continue to expect new episodes, uh, I hope on a weekly basis. And also, we have completed the content for the YouTube page uh for this little batch. So uh we got some new stuff coming out uh where I'm kind of in the lab talking about golf swing stuff, and a lot of people seem to really enjoy that content. So we're gonna have it flowing on the YouTube so you can find us on YouTube by searching measured golf. And uh I think that kind of does it for me. You got anything to add there, Chuck?

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah, I I hope that um people will reach out with questions. I mean, my hope is that I can just be this great facilitator of conversation. I know that there's plenty of times I'm listening to a podcast, and guys will talk about things, moment arms or all these different that that there's like a a touch of like they kind of go into it, but they don't really. And I'm like, I need that information to explain that to me.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

And I just hope that I can get questions, facilitate Chuck got a freaking golf lesson yesterday, goes out, beats himself to death on the driving range, and then I don't know, a couple hours later calls me and he's like, we probably did another hour. Like, trust me, if anybody's gonna get it out of me, it's gonna be Chuck because he is persistent when it comes to his thirst for this knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Yeah. I I just hope that I can be a great shepherd of others that when they have questions, be able to get Michael because he's great at explaining. And if I can just get the questions in front of him, get Michael to go, um, I think it's gonna be a great season.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Well, once again, Chuck is being much too kind as always, but I am super grateful to have him join. Uh, I'm excited that I think with having two of us, uh, you feel more inclined to interact with the podcast, ask us questions, give us topics. Uh, we're gonna hit everything. Um, I think we're gonna bounce around a bit more uh and and maybe be a little less kind of into what we're doing and what we're about, and kind of getting more into what we've seen on Instagram that we like, that we don't like, uh that sells better than what we like, uh, and kind of talking about the world of golf at large. And uh real quick, uh, I would be remiss because I don't think I brought it up yet, but I think Anthony Kim is one of the greatest stories in golf right now. And if you are not following that one, I think you're crazy. But talk about somebody who is down and out and has come back and come all the way back. So uh super excited for Anthony Kim. I know as somebody who's 40 years of age, I remember the belt buckles. I think Jay Lindbergh probably owes him a lot of money because I think they started selling belt buckles because of him. Uh, but yeah, it's a super cool story. But we will get into that and more things like that in the future. But as always, thank you very much for subscribing to this podcast, downloading this podcast. And until next time, keep grinding.