What Augusta National Reveals About Smart Scoring

Masters week flips a switch for golfers, and being on the ground at Augusta National makes the lesson impossible to ignore: the course does not reward vibes, it rewards decisions. We talk through what the broadcast can’t show, from the scale of the slopes to the “dinner plate” targets on firm, fast greens, plus the weirdly refreshing impact of a no-phone environment that forces real conversation and connection.

We also go deep on coaching and mentorship, because the relationships are the real currency at major championships. Pete Cowan’s name comes up for a reason: his record with elite players is unmatched, and his standards are brutally clear. We share the famous Brooks Koepka bunker story and unpack what it reveals about world-class skill, feedback, and how great coaches push without breaking the player.

Then we get practical for your game with modern golf analytics and course management. Why doesn’t raw speed automatically win at Augusta? Because angles, shot shape, wedge control, and predictability decide everything. We cover wedge flight and distance control, why ball fitting matters for amateurs, and the simplest scoring truth most golfers avoid: good golf is boring golf. If you want to drop your handicap, protect par, avoid big numbers, and make the safe miss.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the show with a golf buddy, and leave a review if these episodes help your scoring. What’s one “boring” decision that saves you strokes?

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Transcript

Masters Week Kickoff

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listener, join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And it's here. It is officially Master's Week. Just literally got back to Ann Arbor, Michigan from Augusta, Georgia, where I've been all week soaking in the sights, soaking in the scenes, enjoying some really high-level golf and some high-level people. But it is officially round two of the Augusta National Invitational, we could call it. You might know it as the Masters, but it did start and still is an invitational. So great event. Awesome to uh to be there. Really enjoyed it. The weather, as you're probably seeing on TV, is absolutely sublime. Uh, a little chilly in the mornings, warms up quite nicely in the afternoon. And I think this is going to be the year Augusta exacts its revenge for being a little soft due to the weather the past couple years. And uh, personal mentor, personal hero, personal deity of mine, Pete Cowan, probably with the quote of the trip saying that the greens were going to be purple by the end of the week. So uh looking forward to the carnage that will come with firm, fast greens. Uh, but yeah, I I mean it's probably uh the open always holds a special place in my heart. I really enjoy the open, but I would say Master's Week being kind of the kickoff to the spring, uh, kickoff to golf season is probably my favorite week of the year. What's yours? Is it is this your favorite week of the year, Chuck?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

It's probably pretty close. Uh just because it is such an event, and it's one of those where you can watch something at work on your computer that like is kind of like you should be working, but it's the master, like, okay, like yeah, you've got it on your computer in the back. The boss walks in, he's not unhappy that you're watching.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

He's like, Oh, how are they doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah, he's like that, everybody's like, Oh, what's going on? Like, it's not uh what are you watching? It's how are they doing? Yeah. Um, yeah, no, this is one of my favorites. It's right up there with NFL draft weekend and um college football opening weekend. It's it's right there.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah, you you love your football. I always forget that. I do, I do. Yeah, I mean, I I think it just represents a lot of things for a lot of people, you know. I mean, like I said, it's it's kind of the kickoff to it's kind of the unofficial kickoff to golf season, I think, kind of across the country by and large. Uh here in Michigan, we're we're kind of getting there. Uh, but I I mean the golf courses will be packed this week and people are inspired. Uh, it kind of makes you want to pick up like there's not a tournament that I can think of that makes you want to go hit balls after watching more so than the masters.

Why The Masters Feels Universal

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah. And I think that it it gets everybody involved. Like, people are having it, it's a lot like Super Bowl. People are having Masters watch parties, and it's it's just it's an American holiday almost, where even the wives, oh, it's masters, like who may not be that interested in golf. They they're like, Oh, I kind of get what's going on. Like, I'll watch some of this.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Um, I think that's where the Masters is really brilliant in a lot of ways, because I know you've been there. Uh, I've been every year since 2018, and it it's almost like a fashion show for the wives and girlfriends when you're there. Like, it's it reminds me a lot of the Kentucky Derby being from Kentucky. It's an excuse to put on your Sunday's best to steal one from the South, um, and and play dress up. And it it's it's wild, man. But you're right. There there kind of is there, there's something there for everybody, right? It's it's not just the hardcore golf fans are into it. Um it definitely brings everybody, it's it's definitely interesting to be there early in the week. Uh, you know, you you see it's just this cross-section of people that you wouldn't normally see together. And there's no boxes, there's no VIP areas other than than Breck or Berkman's place. Um so I mean, everybody's kind of out mingling. I mean, I was standing there yesterday morning up by uh one in 10T, and I'm looking at an individual and I'm like, I think that's I think that's so and so. And I'm like, I don't I don't know. And I I look at him a little bit longer, and sure as sure as could be, it was Zach Brown, the team principal from McLaren Racing. And you know, I'm a big F1 fan. So uh like I walked up to him, shook his hand, and joined the break, you know, talked to him for you know, it was brief. I'm not gonna say like we were yucking it up or anything, but it's just you know, then you turn around and there's Jason Witten and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Uh, and then you know, it's you just you see all these people, and then there's people there that have have saved up and uh you know, they they got through in the lottery or they they got through however they did, or and there's a lot of people uh locally that that have ways of getting, and you just you see this really cross-contamination of people. I think it's I think it's really cool. And then my absolute favorite thing about it, uh, my favorite thing to do at Augusta, next to spend time with Pete Cowan, as we'll probably talk about later. Uh, my favorite thing is to see, you know, fathers and sons and fathers and daughters and and family units having these very emotional moments there. You know, they've watched it for years on TV, they finally got to go. Um, I I think it's just awesome to see. And and I know every time I I go with somebody for the first time, uh, I really enjoy sharing that that sharing that way because you just, you know, they they talk about this all the time, but it just couldn't be more true. TV does it no justice. And like you walk into that place and you're just like, holy smokes, what is this? It's it's Disneyland for the golfer, man. It's it's just so unreal, and they do such an amazing job. And and the the way you're just not gonna go to a more well-run event. It's it's off the charts.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

There's uh that whole getting to experience it with someone for the first time. There's a couple things, but the masters being one of them, getting to take somebody for the first time or be there when somebody sees it for the first time. It's almost better than you seeing it for the first time because you're getting to relive that excitement. Um and as you said, there's no way that people can understand watching it on TV when you get there and you're at one and ten. If you want to go to 16, you're walking downhill the entire way. And if you want to go back from 16 green to 10T, you're walking uphill the whole way.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Um and the slope on some of these greens and the um I mean, I'm I'm physically not going to be right for uh until I see you next week. So I mean, it's my legs, and dude, I this is what I do. I I walk a lot of holes, spend a lot of time on golf courses, and and even you know, being a veteran, compression socks, big squishy shoes, the whole bit, you know, I mean, it just it it not and it physically it wears you out. Um, but then I was kind of thinking about this, and I was talking to some people about this, but it's it's so it's so visually overwhelming when you're out there on the property, and it's so there's so much stimulus and there's so many things to look at. It's just it it just burns your brain out. Like it's try it's overloaded. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

And uh you know, let's get into it. We both had pretty good golf weeks. You were there, walk us through yours. You flew out Monday morning, right? Yeah, yeah, you flew out Monday morning. Um was on property by 1 30. And for those of you that don't believe him, I can attest to it. I received a text message one morning at six something in the morning. He's parking his car. When I spoke to him again, it was nine something at night, and he had just returned to the Airbnb. So he's there all day. And it's not just uh Michael's in the industry, he's going like he's been talking about Augusta for a month. He's been talking about getting there, the excitement. And um, why don't you give us um the coolest part of the trip? You brought his name up a minute ago, but but give us the cool part.

What TV Can’t Show At Augusta

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah, I mean, it's probably not the coolest part for the listeners, but for me, it's hands down. It's going to be the coolest part. Yeah. For me, it it's 100%, you know, getting I let's start here. I I would say when I go to Augusta, and and a lot of people are probably gonna kill me for this, but I I I don't watch a lot of golf. Um I'm not sitting in the bleachers, I'm not, I'm not there to watch the golf. I'm fortunate I get to work with a lot of these guys, I get to go to a lot of tournaments. Uh I I know what these shots look like, I know how they play these shots, but I'm by and large there to network, and it's very much like a homecoming. So I have more friends when I go to Augusta National, what I would consider friends when I go to Augusta National than I do here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where I live. Uh, because my friends are all coaches. Uh, those are the people that I talk to on the regular basis, those are the people that I spend a lot of time with. And that's kind of like I'm very one, I'm not very multifaceted, I'm very one-dimensional, and I kind of live this world of golf performance, and I'm constantly talking to other coaches and things like that. So for me, it's very much like a homecoming weekend and getting to see, you know, in some cases, you know, I only see some of these guys at Augusta or uh at major events. Uh, so it's really cool to uh to get to see everybody. And I've got a laundry list of of people I could name drop and talk about, you know, spending some time with. But there's one name that is on my Mount Rushmore, and I say we put his portrait up there four times. I think he's that good. And that man is Pete Cowan, uh, who is quite the famous golf coach worldwide, uh, has the winningest record of any golf coach known to man, including Butch. Um, and I I just think he's the the best. I think he's the B's knees. And you know, every year that I go to Augusta, if there's somebody like I spend a lot of time on the driving range. Uh, if if I'm watching a coach do his thing, I'm watching Pete.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

And for those who maybe don't know, give us a little background, Pete Cowan, not American, uh, European coach. Give us a couple guys that the uh listeners would know.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Rory. You know, he was the the formative coach when Rory was about 13 years of age, uh, has worked with him as recently from like 22 to 24. Um, you know, doesn't get a it doesn't get a lot of name drop on that one, but he's been with Rory. He's had periods with Ro, Justin Rose, he's had periods with Tommy Fleetwood, had periods with Graham McDowell, Podrick Harrington. Uh the the list goes on. I I I should have been more prepared, but like I don't know that our listeners know this. I literally just got back uh from the airport.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

So um you texted me in the Uber of when you'd arrive and when I needed to be ready. So yeah, you're you've just returned. But to sum it up, he's coaching the who's who the rider cup European team. I mean, we're we're getting the best of the best um players and has done it for you know 35-40 years.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

And did you say Brooks? Brooks is uh who he's there with this week. I think he's got three or four guys in the field, but Brooks being his primary guy in the field this week. You know, he's my favorite Pete Howan story, and I think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I'll share it again. But uh Brooks was uh kind of famously, you know, didn't have your typical run up to joining the PGA tour and played golf at Florida State and and didn't didn't have it or didn't feel like he had it or just couldn't find a way directly from college to the PGA tour. So he went over and spent some time on the challenge tour in Europe. And when he was there, he was trying to you know develop his game and and get to a place to where you know he could he could become Brooks Kepka. And you know, being over there in Europe, everyone was like, Well, if you want the best of the best, it's it's Pete Cowan. So Brooks um rings up Pete or or however it worked, and Pete decides to take a look at him, and you know, Pete kind of goes out there and watches him hit balls and and looks at his short game, and Pete's very old school. Pete coaches all facets of the game. And I I don't want to discredit Pete in any way, shape, or form, but I almost view him as probably one of the best short game coaches out there. Um, but Pete is uh is kind of kind of giving Brooks the rundown and and seeing what's going on, and they get to the bunker. And Brooks uh hits a few bunker shots for Pete and Pete goes, that won't do. And Brooks is like, What you what are you talking about, man? Like I grew up in in Florida, like I I know how to play out of sand, like this is what we do.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

And Pete goes, very European way of saying that.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, like that won't do, yeah, right. And I'm sure Pete probably did say it just like that either. So Pete's Pete's a little ornary, as they like to say over there. Um, but literally um tells Brooks it's not good enough. And and Pete goes, look, I want it to land on the green, and then and he likes told him exactly where he wanted to land, and he goes, What and I want it to release, I don't want it to spin. I want it to release and I want it to roll end over end like a putt, and I want it to go in the hole. And Brooks tries a couple of them and and just doesn't have that shot yet. He hasn't developed that shot. He, you know, like a lot of young college players, they they really like to spin the the the daylights out of the thing coming out of the bunker. So, you know, that's kind of what Brooks knew how to do. And Pete's like, no, no, no, you got to develop this shot, you got to have this shot as well. And and you know, Brooks is in the bunker trying to hit this shot, it's not going well. And, you know, from the little bit of time I've been around Brooks, like I can imagine like Brooks, Brooks doesn't like to not do well with things. Brooks is a competitor and and likes to kind of get after it. So my favorite part is Brooks goes, hand me that. And he takes the wedge from Brooks and literally hits the exact shot, lands it on the exact spot, rolls end over end, and goes in the hole. And Brooks somehow, and this is this is I've heard alternate versions of this, but Brooks essentially called fluke, and Pete does it again. And this story's out there. Brooks has told this story a bunch. Uh, this is not this is not hearsay. This this is a well-known story. And if you're a coach, you know, it's the best story we have. A coach getting in the bunker with a world-class player like Brooks and being able to kind of one-up them in a way. Uh, and I just think that that's the the coolest story that I know about Pete. But um I I I want to say that you know, I've been around a lot of these uh these Mount Rushmore golf coaches, and and Pete has always treated me with respect, has always been incredibly kind, uh, has has always been an open book with me. And I just I really appreciate uh how amazing he is and and the the time that we get to spend. It really is as amazing as being at Augusta is, and as much as I love that experience, my time with Pete uh at Augusta is always my most cherished part.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

It's always the relationships, it's always no matter where you are, it's always the relationships that are the most impactful. You want to tease anything else about Pete?

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Pete's a busy man, and I I'm not trying to put him on the spot, but I do think there is potential that we may have a special episode of the podcast coming up in the near future, uh, where I sit down and talk to Pete on camera, uh, and we're able to share that. So I'm hoping that that comes to fruition, but I also understand that Pete's a very busy man. Uh travels, he I found this out, travels over a million miles a year flying. Delta lesson. Delta absolute. They don't have a category for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

You're you're you're being humble. Yes, he is busy, but when y'all talked, it was like, Well, duh, Michael, I will come on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

He was very nice about it, and didn't didn't put me through the ringer, which was nice.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

No, yeah, that that's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

It took a lot of courage to ask that question, I will tell you that.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Well, that's uh clearly he thinks a lot of you to want to like, yeah, call tell me, text me, tell me when you want to do this. So it's interesting, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

I I tell young coaches all the time, you know, reach out. Like, you know, I I've been at this, and my wife reminded me of this yesterday, but you know, these things that are kind of happening uh from from the the me growing, you know, whether it be our YouTube, our podcast, our social media, my coaching business in general, you know, I've been at these things for quite a while now. And you know, every year when I go to Augusta, I'm hiking up and down those hills. Um, I'm I'm really looking at the T sheet, who do I know in this group? What coach? Go find them in the crowd. Um, and really have been working at this and have built a lot of amazing relationships. But that's that's the advice I always give young coaches is, you know, if there's somebody you look up to or or this is your dream and you want to go and and coach at this level, you got to spend time with people. You gotta you gotta learn the lay of the land, you gotta learn how this works. So um, yeah, I I I definitely have been at this for a long time. I think Pete recognizes that, you know, you know, first off, like I treat Pete as a human being, which I think he probably respects. And I try not to be a total fanboy, even though I am. Uh, but yeah, I I I definitely think over time and persistence, I've kind of earned a little bit of his respect. And and that means the world to me because you know, he's somebody I really admire. Like I said, I I would put him four times on Mount Rushmore golf instructors, uh, hands down. And uh yeah, if if we get him on the podcast, that's great. And if we don't, that's okay too. But uh I think that would be great. And I just I hope that coaches realize, you know, coaches here in America realize that there's a lot of amazing coaches that aren't necessarily here in the United States. And I I think sometimes we we think that all the great coaches are here because of the PGA tour, but there's a there's a ton of bangers across the pond for sure.

Networking And Coach Friendships

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, John Tattersaw used to talk about uh Pete Cowan every other time I saw him. Um he thinks the same about him as you do. Um and touching on your for the coaches listening, I was in the football coaching, college coaching world for a while, and that is so true. Just the every touch point connection you can make, and you never know where it's gonna lead you, and and even being a little uncomfortable and reaching out or or being persistent like it, it's worth it. I've seen it change guys' lives. I mean, there's two or three guys I can think of that just from a connection they had at one point ended up getting a job somewhere that boom, they're in the SEC. So it yeah, I think that's a great point that just go reach out and learn to have thick skin.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, you know, I I mean, you know, one thing that that I remember early on, the early years of Augusta, like trying to figure it out and trying to kind of learn, you know, how how to approach these guys and stuff. You're you know, they're busy, they're working, you know, especially on the golf side of the thing. So, you know, be respectful of their space, be respectful of them having a job to do while they're there. But at the same time, you know, some I've had a lot of guys, man, just blow me off, uh, still to this day. Like, you know, I've I've fallen and failed a lot more than I've succeeded. And that's that's always the case. That's the way life goes. But it's just, you know, if if one door closes and that coach doesn't want to talk to you or kind of brushes you off or whatever the case may be, you know, that's fine. Like get out your get out your listings and and go find the next group where you know a coach and you know, track them down and and talk to him because maybe that one will be good. It's I just think for so many young coaches, you know, A, they're intimidated, and B, when they're when they're met with failure, uh, or they're met with a coach that doesn't want to give them anything or doesn't want to talk to them, you know, they just kind of pack it in. You you gotta you gotta be persistent you gotta you gotta keep saying hello you gotta keep putting your putting yourself out there and and that's the way that you're going to to finally have that breakthrough and have that moment where you know hopefully you develop some of these relationships and you get something you get something out of it you learn something or you make that connection like you were talking to and it leads to something down the road but for me it's it's just really I don't chase the getting something out of it anymore. I just you know hey how's how's the wife how's the kids um you know just try to have a normal relationship with them and and and we end up talking a lot of shop but that's never never generally what I start with it's you know keep in mind people have lives outside of this this is their job so yeah I think it's good though I think you should definitely reach out to as many people as you can and I was blown away at how many people came up to me um came up to me at Augusta and and yeah that was is wild that that was the other thing uh that I was gonna have you talk about was the um the uh Deutro disciples that were out and about and noticed you yeah um and uh I'm sure you're wearing a hat so you you weren't like Scott Van Pelt bald head that you're easily spotable so these people I did I did rock the measured golf logo though I I did a little selfless promotion there. Yeah that's good that's good but people still had to know who you were yeah and there were a lot of people coming up to you you had some some fun encounters yeah it was really cool man I mean it's I was I was I can't recall where I was walking at but I think I was over by eight uh because there's a there's a new um concessions concession spot there on eight I think I was near there and and this uh older woman very nice lady uh approached me and and she asked if if I was the force plate guy uh and I begrudgingly said yes not because I didn't want to tell her but just the force plate guy title always cracks me up a little bit but she uh she pointed to her husband who was sitting over there uh having something to drink and she goes my husband uh listens to your podcast and watches your YouTube and you know even I've heard your podcast because he he listens to it in the car and he's a really big fan and would you mind saying hello to him and and you know I I really appreciate that stuff man like it means a lot to me it's not lost on me. Um I try to you know do this podcast with you and I try to do the YouTube stuff and the social media stuff just trying to put good information out there and and I know a lot of people reach out to me and and tell me that it's helped their golf game a lot and uh whatever the case is but you know it it's for as much negative stuff as we get on the internet it's it's wonderful when you're out in the wild and you get a little bit of the positive it makes you feel good and I'm glad that I'm I'm able to share stuff that helps people play golf a little better and makes them feel a little better about life.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Well just like anything else the the 95% encouragement uplifting things don't get noticed as much as the 5% negative in any walk of life news related anything um and for those that don't know Michael does not have a team behind him doing I mean he is he's doing the YouTube he's doing the podcast he's doing like this it's a full full time job um so I think that's gotta be really fun for you when that hard work is then appreciated by others and they're they're going out of their way to say hey I really enjoy your stuff it's got to be cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Yeah for sure and I mean it it's just you know I I one of the things that I I don't really hear people talk about um that I think makes Augusta special is there's no phones right and it's funny to see people in this current day and age without a phone because they're looking up so with as many people are as at Augusta national people aren't running into each other because they're looking up they're not looking down at their phone. And the thing that I always enjoy uh and I always try to do this at least a couple times while I'm there is you know the main concession area there uh up by the practice area uh there's this nice big shaded area lots of tables lots of chairs and I'm sure they've done the math on this but there is enough chairs to where you can always find somewhere to sit but there's not so many chairs that you can find your own table. And it's very interesting because you know I'm there by myself so you know I find an open chair and I ask the people that are sitting there do you mind if I do oh sure join us that'd be great. And and the thing that's interesting about this is you don't have a phone to be distracted by or you can't pretend to be distracted by a phone. So you you wind up in conversation with people right and oh you know is this your first masters or where are you from or blah you know you you end up having these conversations and I always feel like Augusta has a unique way at least for me personally of restoring my faith in humanity and seeing people behave and act act accordingly and having conversations with people it's just it's really great. And and to your point you know the the the few times that I'm recognized or whatever you know it it's nice to to realize that you know I I see the comments on social media I see the comments on YouTube and the podcast and and for sure that the negative stuff sticks out way more to me than the positive unfortunately that's just the way excuse me that's just the way that my brain is wired and our brains are wired but to be out there in the wild and to have a real connection with people and have a real conversation that's not a comment uh it's nice you know it it definitely makes me feel like the work uh that I do in terms of producing the content and getting it out there and and all that stuff it definitely makes it more meaningful and uh it makes makes it makes me want to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah. Maybe that's where I need to go to find a wife because they can't ignore me with their phones. They they will have to engage with me.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Lots of pretty women at Augusta National lots of pretty hats and sundresses and yeah it's it's it's weird it's it's like a fashion show breaks out in that regard. You know it's you've got everybody done up everybody's wearing their favorite golf shirt everybody's got their new threads on um a lot of Malbon a lot of Malbon this year I they're they're definitely they're doing a good job over at Malbon because there's a lot of that out there I was a lot of the birds um it seems seems like they probably sold that collection out if I had to guess because I saw a whole lot of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Oh cool I I really haven't even come across much Malbon um or like any even in a store to try it on or like feel it or I'm one of those old school people that can't order anything offline. I have to try it on.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Yeah I mean not only that but you work at a club that seems like they've got the merchandising down pretty well and and do a pretty good job keeping you looking good. Um they they have too many things in there. I have to like I've never seen so many visors in one golf shop. Like that might be the visor and you love a good visor. And as I've said before I normally don't trust a visor but you are my exception to that rule. And with that hair I would definitely never put it under a hat either so uh they definitely take good care of you with the visor selection there at the honors.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

They keep me well stocked they make sure that I will never want for a visor that it always stays clean.

Pete Cowan And Elite Coaching Lessons

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Well let's uh let's talk about where were you at by the way we we talked about Augusta where you had a nice little trip this week too maybe not maybe not as nice as to Augusta national but I think you still pulled off a pretty nice trip yourself Mr. World Traveler golfer guy.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

It was a good it was a good trip quick uh little trip up to DC um and got to play one of my favorite courses um burning tree very very exclusive membership um all men's club uh if your wife comes to drop you off at the golf course she cannot pass the guard shack they'll send a cart out for you um but she cannot come past the guard shack um it's a dying breed there you don't see many of that wild wild um and it's a uh it's a uh uh McKenzie and you see a lot of what you're seeing at Augusta where it's not super penal off the T and you but you get these greens that are incredible um and it was kind of fun playing a golf course with some ties to Augusta and and you're kind of getting some feels the same thing. But yeah it was a great trip and great weather love getting that invite to go up and um had some uh had some guys on the trip that that you teach and um we were all enjoying some Michael Dutrow stories at dinner um but yeah it's great sounds like you played pretty well too played well yeah played well um to the point that there were a couple guys on the trip that weren't didn't know who you were before the trip but they now know you not as my swing coach but as my life partner um and they are uh looking forward to you being at the honors next week as am I and uh getting to jump on with you um my dad is jumping on with you Mr. Hudson coming on down Mr.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Hudson is gonna get on the plates and gonna let Michael look at swing and figure it all out um it's funny though like I was thinking about this because you had mentioned some of this to me uh either yesterday or whenever we talked sorry I'm it's all a fog right now but um you know I I have I have clients I have people I work with um that have had amazing success you know I've I've been I've been part of you know a few wins here lately on the Asian tour which is yeah one guy just won again yeah one again yep uh so exciting stuff there but I I've had I've had you know definitely a a fair amount of success with my clients and and whether we're talking about professional golfers or amateurs or whatever the case uh people that you know had never broken 100 and now shoot in the 80s you know the wild things uh I've had a lot of success but you know I think and I've said this before and I I got absolutely murdered for this on Instagram but you know coaches coaches get too much credit not enough blame um and I feel like with these particular cases that I'm that I'm referencing you know I get a lot of credit for for being this golf kind of guru kind of swing guy that can figure it all out and I don't have all the answers I I don't pretend to I'm I'm constantly trying to learn more I like to think I have uh you know better answers than most but I don't have all the answers and like the thing is I think a lot of people that are at the honors have have seen you kind of progress nicely and and get better at golf and you know like you said they they saw a lot of good things the past past couple days out of you but you know it's a testament to you man um you're one of the hardest working students that I have that doesn't I mean you work harder than some of my pros do to be perfectly honest. And that's the thing is like you know and I I talk to Pete about this a lot is you know we can give you good information we can give you the right answer we can tell you you know what needs to happen over the next three months for you to play better golf but at the end of the day man you you got to go out there and you got to do it. You got to put the work in you know you've got to you've got to make your peace with being uncomfortable from time to time you know it's funny I I think a lot of outsiders would would from the outside kind of look at what we've accomplished and and the amount of time we've worked together and kind of kind of think it's all been smooth sailing.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

I mean we've we've had a couple lessons man that were kind of rough I was about to say uh give you a big compliment that one of our last lessons that led to a massive breakthrough but it it was rough there for a minute like I was not going well all over the plate to the point that you like you ended up clearing your next hour out and you were like we're not we're not leaving like this like I'm not gonna leave you this way and um I just thought that was a a big testament to you as a coach and that that's probably a story for the other coaches listening that um you know you sometimes you you need to go that extra mile and cannot leave a player hanging because I was I was looking for the uh toaster oven I was looking for the bathtub I was looking for all of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

If Aaron had been watching that one she would have been she would have probably drove down to to check on you. Yeah yeah it was it was rough but you know it's like I like I've said since day one man like you've got to build a relationship with people so that you can push them like that and you know I I guess this is going to be a a Pete Cowan fanboy kind of uh podcast but you know Pete talks about this man and he's like how'd he say I'm trying to remember exactly how he said it but he said he never I think I forget how many majors he's won it's a bunch but he said six different majors that he's won he didn't win those majors with a great golf lesson he won those less or I'm sorry he he hadn't won those majors with a great golf lesson he had won those majors by tearing their tearing his players a new ass uh that week and he calls it a a bollocing uh and they're like this is a well known thing like it was it was out there not that long ago where I forget JT or somebody they were driving into the golf course and Pete had Brooks in the bunker just giving him the third degree um and and he's talked about that with with multiple players that have won majors that that week uh he he mentioned graham mcdow and and you know that week he had really he called he called it a boxing and and a reality check that he had you know the week that Graham won I believe the US Open he said that he had uh he had really given him the business uh that week and graham told me he's like you know I got a big one in me you know I got a big one in me and Pete was like show me like do it um and Graham went on to win that week and you know I I think as much as we we like to be X's and O's kind of coaches and and I definitely look at myself that way and and kind of hey we got to get this swing to to behave a certain way we got to get this this motor pattern to work a certain way you know it it it's a people business and you you've got to know where your person's at you got to know what you can and can't say you got to have good timing with some of that stuff but you you've got to be willing to to push and you've got to be willing to to stick it out man. I mean you know I remember being a young coach and lessons aren't going well and you're looking at your watch and you're like oh my God like how many more minutes do I have to survive this um but that that's just not a way to do it. That's not a way to help people grow. It's not a way it's not a way forward for anybody. You know Pete talked about you know language in a golf lesson and and this is the big thing that I learned uh from Pete this week was you know you talk about you talk to players and you're like we're gonna change your grip we're gonna change your your stance width we're gonna change change change change is a very difficult thing for people it doesn't matter what you're talking about but if you talk about you know maybe improving things or you talk about why you want to why you want to quote unquote make that change you know now all of a sudden they can kind of get their head around it. But I think for you and and and where things have gone well for us is you know I try to tell you why we're pursuing this thing before we pursue it. And you kind of want to go to that place. So as long as I've done a good job of kind of telling you where this is going to lead then generally we can kind of get through the ups and downs that go along with getting there.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah and on the player side you gotta you gotta be willing to you got to be willing to to take like gotta be uncomfortable. If you're not uncomfortable you're not making a change and if you're serious you got to be uncomfortable and you gotta know that it may be uncomfortable for a time. I mean there's there's a couple guys that that we both know that really don't want to be all that uncomfortable and you know that's fine but to make the change you got to get uncomfortable to the point that you might have to go all the way into a lesson that's so bad that it's like okay Chuck intentionally hit a shank now intentionally hit it off the toe and then we then we work back up from there. But I think I think you're right that if you have that relationship with somebody you're able to you're able to to push them or say things to them that um they know is coming from a place of love and not from oh I just want to be an ass today to this person.

How To Build Connections As A Coach

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah like you know I I don't think it's fair I don't think it's fair the way that people have looked at you know historically great coaches you know Bobby Knight I'm kind of dating myself a little bit but you know Bob Knight the famous Indiana basketball coach you know was just a a terror a absolute terror on on the bench um you know throw chairs got in some trouble but you know we we focus on that and for him to to be able to behave that way and act that way I can't imagine I can't imagine the respect and the love that he must have shown off camera because you can't be that way all the time you can't just be a taskmaster you can't just push people all the time you can't that that that's a recipe for disaster and and honestly I went too far for a long period of time to where I would just push push push push push um and you just drive people away and you make people frustrated and and they lose their love of the game but you know I I think you're you're on to it there you you really have to build build that relationship you have to put you have to start there you have to have that relationship and then it's like when when times get tough then then you can kind of get out the disciplinarian and disciplinarian or you can get that taskmaster kind of guy out that's like hey like Pete said that's not good enough that won't do uh and and then they they they kind of they can take that but you've you've got to have that set in place before you start rolling that out with people because if if that's where you you lead from and people don't know how much you care you're in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yeah if we're if we're switching gears going back to uh a little bit of what we talked about last week and the week before getting into how to put some better rounds together I think a a great um Augustus is such a great case study for all things like analytics of golf or new age versus old age old age um and you and I touched on it before coming on um and a little bit this week the third hole is so unique. So let so my my kind of thought was we get into third hole and you and kind of what we talked about last week of are we pushing it up there? Are we laying it back? Are we getting into one of those unique yardages? And then we've talked about before yes speed is great in golf and uh and I don't neither one of us want to throw him under the bus but it's just an example. Aldrich Potgeeter is probably going to finish last and I don't know if anyone else has his ball speed uh maybe Bryson. I don't know who's longer here Bryson and and not that Bryson's going to going to do well either he's on the cut line or one off of it.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

So in fairness to Aldrich he has turned it around a little bit but currently with one hole to play he is five from the bottom so let's hit that first tell explain to me because we've heard Brian

SPEAKER_00 44:00

And talk about it. Oh, this is a par 67 or par 60, whatever he said. The unique quote. Tell us, in your opinion, why these guys with so much speed. There's no rough to speak of. Like you can push it as far down as you want. Excuse me, it's the first cut. First cut, you're right. I better start saying first and second nine and not screw that up either. Yeah. No Yoji about that stuff. I know. So give us your thoughts on speed. And uh when you've got a guy in the field like Patrick Reed, who's probably uh what, a 114 clubhead guy? I mean on the tour, I don't even know if that's average. I don't even know if 114 is average anymore.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

It's it's right around average, if not slightly below. Right. I think the average right now is like maybe 117.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Give us your thoughts. Tell us about this speed is king, but it if it was, Bryson would have three green jackets and Aldrich would be at the top of the leaderboard.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah, and I mean I I I know where the the comment section is going with this. They're gonna point to Rory, and and Rory has a lot of speed and is at the top of the leaderboard. And and I'm not saying that that speed can't be an advantage, it can. Um but you know, I think Augusta's unique in a way to where for one, you gotta be able to work it both ways with the driver, which is not as much as people think that they're doing that weekend and weekend, they're not. They're not working it both ways with the driver. But at Augusta National, you do have to work the driver both ways.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Because the thing now is to play your best golf, it's it's mainly let's get one shape with the driver, correct?

Fans, No Phones, Real Conversation

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Because it is so difficult to play it both ways, it it makes it creates bigger misses, right? The old dreaded double cross. So I think you see on a weekend and week out basis on the PGA tour, you see guys typically hitting a shape uh versus Augusta National, where you got to hit both shapes, right? I think the other thing that's very interesting is is the green complexes, like you were saying with Dr. Alistair McKenzie, are so severe, and you're literally hitting it at dinner plates. And you know, that's hard. It's it's distance. I I swear, I I've said this for a long time now. I truly believe this to be true. I think it's it's no longer the driver is no longer the hardest club in the bag to hit, like it used to be. It just isn't. It's very forgiving. The world of 10k, you know, it's not hard to hit a driver in a functional kind of way. I'll tell you what's hard is hitting a wedge. Because if you're Aldrich Potgeeter and you have this insane amount of speed, or you're Chris Godderup, who has this insane amount of speed, or you're Rory, hitting these dinner plates, these targets that you're trying to land it on becomes tough. What do you do with all this speed that you just naturally kind of make? Now, the second part to that is okay, let's say you figure out, because they do, let's say you figure out how to get rid of some of that speed and how to hit hit your number. Okay, well, how do you control the spin rate? How do you control the trajectory? How do you control the land angle? It gets more difficult when you have more speed. And the problem with Augusta National is hitting it as far as you can, which may be an advantage at certain tracks, isn't always really the advantage at Augusta National. It's more about creating angles into these very difficult greens and being able to like have a better access point to that dinner plate that you have to land it on. So, you know, I think as much as it, and don't get me wrong, like Augusta is not a small ballpark, it's not a short golf course, but at the same time, there's a real premium on getting the ball to the correct place. There's a real premium on that there. So I think getting the ball to the correct place to be able to kind of create a better angle into the green is huge. You know, I I think you know, there's a lot of places at Augusta where you're not necessarily sending it, you're trying to create that angle and you're trying to be on the correct side of the fairway, and you're trying to do a lot of these things. But then Augusta's, you know, it's unbelievable that the design there because you get to a hole like 15. And we all know 15 because of Rory last year hitting the shot of his life, uh, hooking it around the trees and somehow getting it to stop on the green there at 15, which I don't think they'll be able to do this year. But with that being said, 15, if you go for it, I mean, best case scenario in all honesty is you're in that right bunker. Like if you could if you could get it to land in that right bunker, you're probably pretty pleased with yourself. But the thing that's so interesting about that, and and the the comment section will love this because it it kind of blows me out of the water. But let's say you decide to lay back to a number on on 15, that shot's even harder. I mean, there that is such a hard hole because you're on that down slope, there's nothing to hit it at. And I literally watched Davis Riley, I think yesterday hit two in the water from from a layup position. Uh, and I and look, I know Davis is off his game, but I you could sit there, like if you want to be really entertained and like chant one of us, if that's your thing, you know, go down there to 15 in the landing area, just past the crosswalk, and just watch guys hit little short wedges into the water all day long. Yeah, that's what you see. It's unbelievable, or send it over the back. Yeah, it's just unbelievably difficult, and the design there is just mesmerizing and great. But you know, that's that's one of those holes that you just really have to hit, you know, two or three really big boy shots. And I think that's why so often 15 really becomes kind of the hole that you have to get through on Sunday to be able to win that green jacket. You know, I think that's why I think that's why we make such a big deal about that shot Rory hit. Um, because it it really is, it's you know, Bryson hit it in the water, and Rory hit it on the green, and that that was kind of the ball game.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Because if Rory carries that ball too much further, and we saw it today um with Scotty on 15. Scotty hit the back of the green and it's gone. Like not, and when I say gone, it's over the back, it's through the the first cut and into the water of 16. Um and Scotty did that today. Rory was able to control his to not do that. Um but that is an incredibly hard shot. That layup is just brutal. Like, I mean, it's really hard. And walk us through are you?

SPEAKER_01 51:14

By the way, interesting story that I heard. Uh forgive me because I cannot remember who told me this or where I heard this. Um but interestingly enough, uh last year, 15, when Rory hits the hero shot, that was the first time all day that Rory had outdriven Bryson. I didn't I didn't even realize that, but somebody was walking me through this. And I I forgive me if if you're listening to this and you're the person that told me this, then let me know and I'll make sure you get your due credit. But uh Rory had outdriven Bryson on 15 for the first time all day. And Bryson pulls eight iron and hits it in the water, as we all remember. I was told that Rory seeing that immediately went to the bag and he had eight iron out in his hands, ready to play. And he saw that and went and grabbed the seven iron, and we know the rest of the story. He hits it on the green and all that, but there's a very high likelihood to where that that could have been inversed if Rory didn't outdrive Bryson on that haul. Yeah, it's amazing. The cat I I love the I don't think the the average viewer or the average fan really realizes how aware and how much these guys learn from one another uh in the cat and mouse game that kind of goes on out there.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

And he he probably doesn't know the exact, I would assume he doesn't know the exact club because they're not close to each other on that. I assume he doesn't know the exact club he's hitting, but he does know whatever he hit came up short. They misjudged.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

And so is that him turning to to his caddy and saying to Harry and saying, I don't know what he had, but they missed they clearly misjudged it. We cannot be in the water.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, I think you know, you get to the back nine. Uh Justin Rose, I think I was falling asleep last night watching live from because I'm a sicko that way. Uh, but I was watching live from and I believe Justin Rose was talking about it. But really, like the first you know, three and a half rounds at Augusta National, you're just trying to it's it's kind of like a horse race, right? Like you're just trying to get into a position uh to where you're gonna potentially be able to win this thing, but you're really not playing against anybody, you're playing the golf course, and then you get to that back nine, and it's okay, like now who am I playing? What's going on? And it becomes a little bit more situational golf. Uh, and I definitely think whether he knew the the exact club that Bryson had hit or not didn't really matter. I think it was more of a Bryson's in the water, and we cannot be short, right? Like you just you're basically playing heads up there, and you your guy just busted. So you you got to make sure whatever you do that you don't bust. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

The um the wedge conversation, if we wanted to deep dive on that, because there are so many factors to good wedge play, and it's become um even more dialed in now with uh track man launch monitors. But you're looking at for your wedges, you're looking at um you kind of named them a second ago with launch, spin, land angle. What's a good wedge? What are some numbers for you, or generally some numbers for you, that you're kind of wanting to see with the high-level wedge play to make things and and the reason you're looking at these numbers is to make this wedge shot predictable. I'm I'm assuming that's what you would say is you want to hit these numbers, and it's important to hit these numbers because we want to make this shot as predictable as we can. So if you could deep dive for us that.

Burning Tree And Golf Travel Tales

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Yeah, I mean, Parker McLaughlin McLaughlin and I talk about this a lot, and you know, I don't think there are perfect numbers that just kind of lay out across the board for everybody. But, you know, in kind of a general sense and kind of getting a little deeper into it, you know, one of one of the big things is you know, there are shots, and then there's a lot of shots out at Augusta National where you you do got to launch them fairly high and you do got to kind of loft it up into the air because no matter how much spin you put on it, it's it's it's tough. And you know, I just presented uh in New York City a couple weeks ago with some of the guys from Track Man. And I I get it, we all think of spin as being the great stopper of the golf ball. But to this day, the easiest way to stop a wedge on a green is to drop it from high. So land angle really is important in terms of creating you know stopping power. Now, can you match up a high land angle with a high? Of course you can, like that can be done. Um, but I think when we kind of get into you know less situational maximum stopping power kind of conversation, um, and we get into like, hey, you know, how do I hit better distance wedges? How do I control the distance um in a in a better way? I think what you really kind of start talking about is you start talking about the apex of the shot. And you know, the the thing that I see that drives me crazy is generally speaking, a golden rule of thumb is that you want to hit every club in your bag at the same trajectory. So if you hit your driver 110 feet in the air, you want to hit your 7 iron 110 feet in the air, you want to hit your pitching wedge 110 feet in the air. Like we want to see that trajectory the same across the entire bag. And and any any good fitter will tell you that. But when we get into this distance wedge conversation, we're not taking a full cut at it, and we're, you know, maybe laying back or whatever the case is, we got to really lower that trajectory. And, you know, for me, inside of 80 yards, and and look, I understand there's situations to where we need to stop it quicker or whatever, but generally speaking, for me, I'm I'm wanting to see these wedges inside 80 yards at like a peak trajectory of let's say 40 feet, right? So we're really bringing that that ball flight down, which you you can get there a lot of ways, but generally speaking, we're gonna have to lower the dynamic loft than than what we traditionally would have on a full swing. We're probably gonna have to get the launch angle lower. And the big thing is we need to understand that that's going to be very difficult to lower that trajectory if we're spinning it at 8, 9, 10,000 RPMs a spin. That ball's gonna want to go up. It's like the old Ballada golf ball, just spinning out of its mind. So, you know, I think so many people, and I see this here because I own a facility in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Uh, people come in and practice all the time. They're like, hey man, come look at this. I just hit this 80-yard wedge shot and it's spinning 11,000. I I get it, it's a cool number to look at, and you're like, oh wow, look at that. But being able to get that to behave consistently when it hits the green, it's it's gonna be tough. It's a lot of spin. So I think generally speaking, we we want to kind of figure out on a case-by-case basis, like, hey, how do I hit this shot, you know, and get it to that 40, 50 foot apex, and then still have enough spin to where I'm creating that land angle that's like 40 plus. And if you can kind of figure out that formula for you based off those kind of end or those outputs, you know, you can really get good with controlling the distance that you're hitting these wedges.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

I think that also brings up the importance of if you're if you're trying to play some some competitive golf, you better have gone through a ball fitting. Um I actually just did one the other day just to check, it'd been a couple years, just like check, make sure I'm still in the right ball. But you could be hitting, you could be needing to play the black, but you're hitting the red, and you're spinning the hell out of it, and you can't control any of that. And it's and you might be doing all the right things, but it's not the right ball for you, and so you don't get that predictability.

Coaching Through Discomfort

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

But that's interesting to hear it's a long conversation about getting the right ball in people's hands, it really is, and it it's not as simple as well, titleist is the number one ball in golf. That's a tagline, okay. Like I hate to tell people, but that's a registr, I think it's a registered trademark of theirs. Um I I mean it it's I'm and I'm look, I'm not saying that titleist isn't the most played golf ball out there, uh, because it is, but at the same time, like we, and I'm gonna get killed for this. We are not tour players for the most part, people listening to this podcast. We are we have a completely different set of needs than than the tour players do. And I think a lot of people go out there and and tidalist is the ball, and look, titleist makes a great golf ball. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it should perform well being the most expensive golf ball in the marketplace, and it always is. So I think that there's a a value proposition there for a lot of people uh to where there's cheaper balls out there that maybe perform better for them. But I I think taking the the cost cost benefit conversation out of it, I just think that there's more than likely a chance that there is a golf ball that performs as good, if not potentially better for a golfer than a titleist. But most people would never even explore that option, never even look into that option. But there's a reason that they make so many different golf balls, and it's and if titleist was really a clear-cut favorite and one of the best balls out there, which it is, but if it was such a clear-cut runaway favorite, these these other balls wouldn't exist, they wouldn't be in the market. Um, there wouldn't be anybody to sell them to. So, you know, I I know personally I I've hit some of the new Bridgestone balls that came out this year. It's unbelievably good. Um, it actually did test out better for me on a track man uh than a titleist did. Uh so I think the bridge stone is definitely worth exploring. Uh I'm still playing a Maxfly golf ball. I freaking love it. Uh, I love the brand Maxfly. I grew up with Maxfly. Um, but you know, I pay for my golf balls. So, you know, it's the the value there for me is A, it performs at a really high level, maybe not as well as that that bridgetone potentially could, but just as good, if not, it's right in that conversation. I mean, you're splitting hairs. And then for me, it's like, well, I got to pay for these things. Would I rather pay 30 bucks a dozen or 50? Give me the$30 dozen.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

So, you know, it's it's I just think people, you know, we obsess about numbers, uh, we obsess about these these details, but then when it comes to equipment, when it comes to their ball, when it comes to their shoe, you know, people just don't look at this stuff. They think it's it's all swing swing dependent. And in reality, everybody has a unique action, everybody has a unique swing. Uh, and and you're gonna have to figure out which ball works best for that for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

In the keeping with the wedge conversation, let's take a look at number three. I don't know the exact name of number three.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Um, so that probably gives me a we need like somebody else, like we need a producer. Like you know, Joe Rogan has like a producer and he'll like start talking, and then like the producer gives him the answer. Yes. So what yeah, we need one of those. By the way, we're taking applications for this position. If you're listening and would like to be the fly on the wall and do the research for us so that we look smart and take all the credit, uh, it's it doesn't pay either. Like it's a non-paid job, but we're hiring a producer.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Be great, I would love to have that. Um so number three, and we talked about it. Um, I actually had several people reach out to me to say how insightful and they they had never thought about our conversation of Tiger never playing to a certain yardage. And people reaching out to me that they were like, wow, I had never thought about that, especially on a par five. Oh, bang it up there. Well, I may have 30 yards, but it's a bad angle, you know. All the all the things that we we talked about in that episode. Well, number three at uh flowering peach, please. Flowering Peach. Great name. Three at Augusta is a great um case study.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:30

It's we were talking about it before we came on, like briefly. Uh that's gotta be one of the craziest like shot dispersions that I've seen in a while. I mean, it's unreal. Like, not only side to side, but front to back. I mean, it it's you see so many different people trying to do so many different things, it's unbelievable. And like you said, people hit it in the freaking bunker.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:53

There were, I think there were like seven or eight golf balls in the bunker, and I'm thinking these are the the people playing at Augusta are the highest ranked players in the world, and we've got eight people that hit it in the bunker, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Um, so I think it's so unique. But I think that's what you're seeing, right? I I think the guys that they hit it in the bunker, or I think the the guys that are laying back a bet, you know, I think they're trying to get to a number. If I if I had to guess, like why else, why else would you do that, right? So I think those guys are actually trying to get to a number, and then you know, you've got guys like here we go getting killed again, you got guys like Patrick Reed that are top 10 all time with a wedge in their hands, and they're like, Hey, I'm gonna bang it up there and and you know, I'm good enough with the wedges to where I can take this on. Um, but yeah, I mean it's if you're Scotty and and you can hit your cut and you can keep it on the right side of that thing and and get it to kind of careen down towards the hole and and knock it on the green yesterday, I think he did. Yeah. Um you know that that's an advantage right so it's it's definitely it's not a pushover hole you know it it's there's a there's a high amount of risk and reward on that hole I mean I don't think once again TV uh I don't think people realize like how big those mounds are around that green and how much that green is pushed up from where the fairway ends. Like I happened to be out walking with uh Rick Sessinghouse who I love to death great guy uh Kala Morakawa was coach and on three you know Colin had banged one up there just short right of the green and once again you know was it a number he liked was it a number he didn't like I I don't know I I can't sit here and say that I unequivocally know the answer to that question but he doesn't hit the wedge very well uh it was called a chunk I'm not trying to put that out there but he essentially chunked it it lands into one of those mounds and then kicks dead left and is on the front of the green and I can't remember if Colin was able to two putt that or three putted that one um but you know it it's once again was he in a position there he had a he had an angle I'll give him that he had the angle but once again like did he have a number that he was really comfortable with did he have a number that maybe he had already been kind of hitting on the range prior to going out knowing he was going to have that shot and and kind of had that that recent like history with and and recent success with I don't know the answer to those questions but you know I I think it's I think it's interesting you see people you know try to lay back to a number and make birdie the old fashioned way and then you see people bombing up there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

I mean heck I'm sure God or up could probably hit three wood onto that green if he really wanted to so here was the uh the the laying up versus going for it I did see uh without a producer I did go look this up yesterday the going for or or not laying up group was 0.44 strokes under par. The laying it up group was like plus six or plus six strokes over par. And um I thought that was really unique that um and to what you were talking about earlier that makes Augusta so great the the tabletops that you've got to hit. And and there's certainly no other green that is uh demands that more than that green of tabletops and being in the right spot in the angles. But I think the pushing it up and this is kind of what I wanted you to talk about. So we've let's say we push it up there. At what point do you think when you're trying to make a a score say you like today they've kind of got that pin back middle. So all those guys you know a lot of them are we're pushing it up there because there's a good angle to hit a shot up that can release back to the pen or that you can put enough spin on to let it skip back. But let's say you get that Colin situation from yesterday.

Speed Versus Precision At Augusta

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

How disciplined do you need to be to be like I don't have an angle or I don't have a number I like I I can't make a five like I've got to almost just take the ego out like we've talked about what are your thoughts on that like are are we playing away from Tigers record is so good at Augusta. I mean it is like you know there's been a a ton of people that have talked about it there's been a a ton of of discourse about it but there's a lot of times at Augusta national man where 20 feet is sublime if it's 20 feet on the correct side of the pen. Like with the way those greens are there's just there it there's a lot of and I don't want to say this because I'll probably get banned forever for for saying this about Augusta national but it's a lot of sucker pins out there. You know like you're you're looking in the you're looking at your approach shot and you're going oh that's not so bad. And oh yeah we can make this work and you hit one in there man and it winds up you know rolling off the green 60 yards and coming back at you and doing all those types of things. So you know there's there's a lot of times I think when and once again I I don't know if I've not played in the masters um but there's a lot of times where you have to understand that like hey as tempting as it is as much as I want to make a birdie as much as I feel like I have the capacity to do this hitting it to 20 feet uh on the correct side of the pen is big it's really big it it's going to give you a chance to make birdie but more importantly it's gonna give you a realistic chance of protecting par. And you know that's that's the thing with with number three is you make a five there man and you you've given almost probably what a stroke and a quarter to the field oh yeah that's that's super penal. Um so yeah I mean the other thing too is is you know your group that's that's going for it you know because they're getting so close to it or onto it they're chipping they're not really hitting a shot right so you know that I I can protect par with a chip like I can yeah I can get this thing to 25 feet with a chip. Yeah for sure so I I think that you know that that's an interesting case in point just because you're you're talking about going from potentially chipping pitching the golf ball to where you're hitting a little bit more of like a distance wedge shot or what have you so yeah I mean I I I think it's where where are your strengths what do you feel the best with um but once again you know laying it back as as we can see in that shot pattern laying it back is no guaranteed um success either because you know you don't have complete control of the golf ball even when you are gearing down and and like you said you know there's like eight guys in the bunker or whatever which is just absolutely crazy that that you would even hit a club that potentially could be in the bunker. So yeah I mean it it's it's very interesting. It'd be it'd be really interesting to kind of take a deep dive on that after the tournament's concluded and look at the four pins for the four days and then look at kind of what the field did and then kind of look at those scoring averages based off where the pen is because I I think it I think it'd be very interesting to see because yesterday the pen was back as well right it's like back left am I remembering that right be honest I can't remember I think it was back left yesterday um so I'd be really interested to see like the going for it versus laying up group I'd be interested to see what the metrics look like when it's like a front pin. I think that could be really interesting and maybe inversed from where it is on a back pin.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:28

Well you um good segue you I was thinking about last year's Masters and I was thinking about I think it was the Sunday pin if I'm thinking about this correctly that front left pin and which is diabolical by the way yes and you had you had Rory down there like short sighted and I um want to get your thought on he the best player in the world arguably didn't try and fly that on the green he bumped it like his his thought process had to have been the ball cannot end up back at my feet. Yeah what to to the 15 scenario with Bryson ball can't end up in the water on three ball can't end up back at my feet and he looked like to me I'm gonna bump this I'm great with 20 feet like I'm I hit it up here with driver trying to give myself a chance to make a birdie. I didn't end up in the best spot that's okay I've still now given myself a club that as long as I protect par I've got par. Yeah right I mean I would I would love to hear what you think of like and he happened to hit it.

Wedge Control Plus Ball Fitting

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

I mean it reminds me of yesterday I think it was and I could be wrong but I think it was like number five um actually you know what I think it was number it might have been four no four's a part three five I I don't think it was five either five's a long part four yeah uh six is the I can't remember where it was but it was it was earlier in the round and uh Brooks was like way down below the green surf way below the surface um and like you're looking at that shot and I I was there with Pete and we were kind of talking about a little bit and you know I asked Pete I go what what do you think here and he goes well you could really he goes you could really go either way with it but the safe play is the bump. And I mean this is a severe slope that he's kind of bumping into and I mean he hit one of the the best touchiest shots I've seen in a long time but to your point he didn't even he didn't even consider flying it on the green. Like there was no no chance that he was going to do that. He he bumped it into the hill and it released beautifully and I hit it to maybe a couple feet but I mean it was an exquisite shot and and in all likelihood one of the better ones I've seen in a while um but yeah I mean I I I think I think that's where we get in trouble sometimes is you know we we we think we can get the ball to stop a lot quicker than we can and especially at Augusta national being firm and fast uh and only going to get firmer and faster you know I I think you're gonna see more of that this weekend you know being out with Rick and and watching and Colin on the front nine you know he was putting from everywhere you know when he was missing green like it's not a bad play right and one thing that I thought was so interesting standing up there uh next to the kind of the the warm-up green there between one and ten before players went out almost every player went over to like the fringe and putted a few from there right before they went out almost every player did that and it's it's one of those things you wouldn't I don't think you would normally see that and I haven't seen that at other tour events that I've gone to but almost every player would throw a few out in the fringe and kind of roll some through the fringe because it's it's just one of those things to where you know attacking and flying it close to the hole and trying to spin it like that stuff's cool and whatnot but it's it's really you're rolling the dice at Augusta national and you start flying it onto those surfaces. And would you say that um you know if we go if we don't have a great number let's let's say we're on three and we don't have a great number and we don't have a great um angle uh it's probably time to we gotta make four like it doesn't matter what we do however you want to make four like play away from it and I think that that comes into play for the typical golfer uh playing you know let's say you go for a par five and two or uh yeah let's say you go for a par five and two something goofy happens you're at a bad number you're at a bad angle I would you I would assume you'd say man if you if you just get this on the green at 25 feet like you you can't bogey the par five like that that's one of the tiger five you can't do so how do we not do that and it's be okay with 25 feet actually the best players in the world are doing yeah it goes back to ego you said it earlier it's you know if you're a 15 handicap right like that par is invaluable to you like if you want to get better at golf and you're a 15 handicap you got to make more pars not more birdies like you got to make more pars and it just it it never ceases to amaze me i it reminds me of a story um I was playing with another coach this is years ago and we're playing in this um this scramble thing for some charity I don't remember what but the it's just a really bad hole it's like literally like a horseshoe uh and and then in the middle of this horseshoe is just really tall trees it's it's it's it's just a a zoo uh so you kind of have to play around kind of the zoo and it it literally is almost like a horseshoe but we were looking on Google or uh yeah I think we're looking on Google Maps and we figured out that it was like a 310 carry to the green if you could take a direct line at it but you're gonna have to launch it at like 1516 right like it was just stupid uh like you would never in a million years try this shot so long story short uh Scott was was the other coach's name great player played at University of Michigan was a captain uh but but hit it pretty good hit it pretty far hit it farther than me for sure but he uh we get to this hole and he's like Mike get us one out and play so I do I I put one out in kind of position a uh from where you'd want to be and he pulls out he he he he's a he's a big golfing machine guy uh and he pulls out like a super long tee out of his bag and I'm like you gonna do it and he's like yeah because we're already in position a right we're playing a scramble it doesn't matter and he literally trot I mean he did he he hits it over the zoo and literally he doesn't get it on the green but he lands it on this bank uh just short of the green there's a creek there but he lands it on the bank uh we we we thought it was lost we ended up finding it um but and played from there but the funny thing and the reason I bring this up is it it was one of those scrambles it's a very unfortunate event but you play as eight sums because cheating is really rampant in this thing right so the other group that we're paired with well we got a team of killers like I'm the worst player on this team we got a team of killers and this other team is the opposite they are just out there for a good time they've been drinking their faces off there's not one guy that's better than a than a 15 in the group like they're just not great nice guys but just not great golfers. Yeah wouldn't you know it and I swear this is true every single one of them tried to hit the same shot as Scott and keep in mind they hadn't been within one of Scott's drive they hadn't been within 50 60 70 yards of one of Scott's drives all day long and every one of them just tees it up and tries to hit it over the zoo and then we're shocked when we got to the other side and they couldn't find one of their walls. And there's like a lesson there right like I mean it's we have to realize what we can do and what we're good at. And if you're a 15 handy there's no shame in that but if you want to if you're a 15 you want to become a 10, you got to make more pars. So quit trying to you know if you do find yourself in an advantageous position on that par five and you do get it up near the green you know in two shots or whatever the case is you know instead of trying to force the issue and trying to hit a shot that you're uncomfortable with or whatever the case is, you've got to find a way in that moment to make par. Now hopefully we we do a little better than we thought and we get it close and we sneak a putt in or whatever the case may be and make birdie. But once again the the the issue here isn't making the birdie the issue here is making sure we don't make a bogey because you're gonna make plenty of those so every every par we get on the scorecard is a huge win for that 15 handicapper.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:41

I've got a a really good friend of mine um who loves golf he is a legit 20 handicap like he it's legit it's he's not we don't need to get yip strickler on him um and last year he and I played in the member member together at Chattanooga Golf and Country Club so I said I love that logo the train yeah the the train logo is great and I said you know what this could be a cool experiment. We're gonna team up the zero with the the 20 and see how we do and I just uh I I'm he well he asked me to play and I said okay I'll play we'll we'll do the experiment you just be willing to have me coach you around I'm I'm gonna coach you around on every shot are you good with that he's like yeah yeah good with it because he's basically going to get a a dot a hole and we've got to take advantage of like the 5-4 is not helping me but the four three is and um it was incredible how many times and I think I think we improved his scoring average like people were upset because he was playing he was scoring better than he typically was and um we ended up being a great pairing but we were taking so many strokes off his game by like hey we're gonna be really really boring on this like and just thinking in the sense of like how boring can we make this and um we ended up we finished like the first 18 holes and I want to say that I was I was under par and he was he was having a great day for him and one of the other teams came up to us and they were like man like we kind of looked up like y'all didn't do anything special all day and you just beat the hell out of us. And it was like yeah I I handled the par fives didn't make any bogeys I lucked into making an 18 footer here or there and my friend whose nickname is danger because you if you're in front of him you are in danger so it's a great nickname um he he was just keeping it as boring as we could and like hey we're gonna hit this like I'm okay if you like chip this over there to 25 feet like you're you're you got this bunker in the way and he finished and was like wow that's the one of the lowest rounds I've shot in a while and it was all of how boring can I make it and the biggest problem with golf on TV man that good golf is boring golf.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:32

It's so boring. Good golf is boring golf like you like if if there's a compliment like and this had and look I haven't been playing as much in the in the past couple years but you know when I when I was still after it and I was still practicing a bit and and trying to stay sharp you know it I can't tell you how many times because I play a lot of public golf and I just get paired up with people and that's fine with me and I don't have a problem with it. But I can't tell you how many times I would go out and play golf at a public golf course and get paired up with public people and we'd get done with a round and they'd be like what'd you shoot 73 74 I'd be like 68 69 how'd you do that I don't know you watched me you know it it's it's really boring golf is where you want to be and I I get it it's not exciting you know I I think that was the the allure of Phil Mickelson you know we all think about him hitting the shot from the pine straw at Augusta national and we think about these crazy short game shots he pulled off uh and I think that's how Phil built built a fan base is because people looked at that and went oh yeah I got to do stuff like that. They didn't do it like Phil did it but you know they they recognize like oh he's in danger right so you know I I think though if if you think back to you know tigers dominance man it was boring they get a lot of fairways a lot of greens like you said made the putts he was supposed to and then rolled in a couple extra ones and now he's you know six under par seven under par and when you start stacking those rounds up and and stacking up the boring golf you're gonna win a lot of golf tournaments the one of the better examples of it go play go play a four ball match against someone and go play against them and they're a team that both guys are in the fairway and both guys hit the green and they and and they don't even have to hit it that close like you know 20 feet and in and be the other team there's a lot of pressure like they're not even flagging it but you are feeling the pressure as that other team and they've done nothing special.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:42

They all they did was hit the fairway and hit the green and and immediately you're like well they've got a chance to score well yeah they do have a chance to score and it puts immense pressure on you and I one of my good friends that we play in um we play together in a lot of four ball things Our mantra is always two the fairway, two on the green, and like let's just see what happens. And it's never even even if one of like one of us would have to be really tight, but even if one of us is like 15 feet, it's never like oh I'm gonna get super aggressive. It's still like I may I may tighten my my aim a little bit, but I'm still I've still got the same boring process going. And it is you get worn out playing 18 holes against a group of guys that make it look really boring.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:36

I remember being a young man, um I probably wasn't more than like 10 or 11, and I played a lot of golf, uh, and there was an old guy, and and this story will trigger memories for most people listening, I think. But there was an old guy, man, and he had always played golf with me, and he hit it nowhere. I mean, he hit it nowhere, he didn't get hit out of a shadow, and he would hit it down the middle, and then he hit it down the middle, and then he knock it on the green, and then he'd make a spot. And like, dude, trying to it it took me so long to beat him, and I I legitimately, and look, I wasn't a long hitter, I would legitimately hit it a hundred yards by him, and I couldn't figure out a way to beat the guy. I mean, it was just absolutely crazy. Um, but there's a lot to be said for boring golf, there's a lot to be said for you know, understanding your skill level and what you can. And look, this is the problem, right? Our ego tells us we can we can do every anything once, right? Like, yeah, you you probably can, but statistics exist for a reason, right? And and what are the chances that you are going to do it right here, right now? And it's not as high as we probably think it is. So it's it's one of those things where I think, you know, knowing your game, knowing how you play, knowing, you know, what's gonna be easier or more difficult for you, and then playing to that, and and to your point, just keep it boring, like be the most boring guy out there. Um, and you're gonna you're gonna shoot a lot better scores than you probably think. And you know, once again, going back to the 15 handicapper, man, get boring. Like try to figure out a way just to to really keep it dull uh and don't get too excited about things. And and like I said, stop stop thinking you got to make more birdies, start thinking you got to make more pars. Um, that's huge. Like that's that's where so many people I think really lose the plot, especially the higher handicaps, is they're convinced they got to make more birdies, they got to hit it closer, they got to hit it farther. No, you got to quit making big numbers, right? Like that's that's how you're gonna lower your handicap, that's how you're gonna get better, that's how you're gonna see improvement. So yeah.

Hole 3 Strategy And Boring Golf

SPEAKER_00 1:30:52

And that that ties it back to to those guys, you know, when they get out of position at Augusta, they they know or or they know that they don't have a good number, like on three, like they're making the play, they're making the boring play that gets them to 20 feet. And if they happen to miss it and they get close, like great. Um and last story to wrap us up, I was literally playing in the group with a 15 handicap this past week at Burning Tree, and there's this pretty gettable par five, one of those that if you don't make Birdie, you feel like you've kind of lost a shot, but you last thing you can do is is make a six. And um he's you know, 100 yards out or whatever, 115 yards out, and the caddy's like the pin is on the left, and there's a bunker on the left, and the green all runs away from this bunker. So the only place you can't hit it is left in the bunker where you can't stop this ball coming out, and it and these greens are lightning and undulated. This ball's going off the green on the other side, and the caddy says to the 15 handicap, oh yeah, just just hit it like at the pin or a little left, that way when it hits the green, it'll kind of go towards the the pin. Um and I turned and I was like, Um, Judge Ashley, hit this ball aim right. If we miss this thing right, we're fine. We can get this thing up and down. And he aims and and misses it right and gets up and down um from right of the green to make an easy par. Whereas the day before, he had missed it in that same bunker on the left and made a whatever because it went off and like couldn't get it out of the bunker, and then he did get it out of the bunker. And I'm like, you who like we can attempt to make a score from over here, we can't from over there.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:44

No, you're scrambling, things get fast, uh compound mistakes, whatever you want to say. Yeah, keep it boring. I think it's uh it's good. I mean, I it's kind of funny. This this podcast went everywhere, but I I honestly I'm sitting here thinking this might be the best podcast we've done so far together. This has been good. As long as you're happy, I'm happy. I'm actually really happy. Normally, Chuck calls me after the podcast and he's like, What'd you think? How was it? And I normally don't I like I tell him, like, I the reason I brought Chuck in in the first place is because I don't I don't have my finger on the pulse in terms of of what people want to hear or what people are interested in. And I think Chuck does an amazing job of of kind of getting me to some of these points that are are relevant in the golf space. Um, but I I think this this one's been pretty good. At least either that or I'm just so tired that I I don't care and I'm just happy that it's coming to an end. Yeah, you need to go go home, get some sleep, see the wife, see the dogs, also importantly. Uh um Walter's been singing to me every night when I call my wife. Uh Walter's in the background, like singing, like Daddy, where are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:49

Yeah. I'll be excited to see you. Uh I'm excited to see you next week. I'm looking forward to a really cool podcast and hopefully um getting some content that perhaps you'd share on the YouTube. And um yeah, but there's uh we'll be going live from next week. Uh like we're gonna get in a trademark problem on that one, I think. That's right. Um, but looking forward to seeing you next week. Um awesome time that you had at Augusta, and thanks for sharing that with everybody. And yeah, send us out.

Closing And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_01 1:34:29

Yeah, man. Um, yeah, an amazing week. Uh, if if you're listening to this, uh hopefully you're catching this. It comes out Saturday morning at 8 a.m. Uh, which means you have two whole days of Augusta to enjoy. And I sincerely hope that everybody uh is able to watch the tournament, enjoy the tournament. Uh, I hope you have your traditions, your master's traditions. Hopefully you're watching it with uh a family or a loved one. But yeah, I think that's the great part about Augusta and kind of the springtime and kind of our renewed faith that we can go out there and play like a scratch, even though we're a 15, because we see these guys do the do the impossible at Augusta National. So, like I said, the podcast drops. Uh, if you haven't figured this out, the podcast drops Saturday mornings at 8 a.m. And there's a video component to this that comes out on our Measured Golf YouTube channel. And then the podcast is available anywhere you download your favorite podcast. And if you would like to reach out to either Chuck or myself, you can find me at the Force PlateGuy or at Measured Golf on Instagram. And you can find Chuck and his amazing hair at Hudlow423. And lastly, if you have not remembered any of this or you're trying to write it down quickly, you can always go to the website at measuredgolf.com where we have all of that linked. You can reach out to me if you're interested in doing some coaching or getting some work done on your golf game. Uh, you can reach out to me there and we can get things rolling for you and hopefully get you playing some of the best golf of your life. So thanks so much for listening. I really appreciate it. Let us know uh ideas for future episodes, things you want to hear about, whatever. Uh, but you can let us know in the comment section, or you can let us know uh by reaching out to us on Instagram. So, once again, thank you for tuning in. And until next time, keep grinding.