What If The Swing You See Is Not The Problem

We’re recording from Chattanooga, Tennessee, and the setting is perfect for a conversation about what golf instruction looks like when you stop guessing and start measuring. After watching members and staff react to a live force plate presentation from Michael , we dig into why ground reaction forces and pressure data can change a golf swing fast without the usual spiral of positions, planes, and swing jargon. When you can see the pressure, forces and torques, you can coach the real problem.

We break down two foundational concepts that drive everything else: point of application and line of pressure. If you’re fighting early extension, inconsistent contact, or a swing that feels like it has a thousand moving parts, this framework gives you something simple to audit right away. From there, we connect the dots to speed: why the backswing is essentially “done” by P3, how the kinematic sequence works (pelvis, torso, arms, club), and how timing and braking forces create the conditions for a stable face-to-path relationship.

Then we apply it to real shots. Chuck shows up with a driver that’s leaking weak-right even though the path is already right, and the fix isn’t a grip change or a wrist cue. It’s a better brake, better pressure into the lead side, and letting the clubhead work on the arc. If you want more clubhead speed, more reliable ball flight, and fewer swing thoughts, this is the roadmap.

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Transcript

Live From The Honors

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where we are coming to you live from the Boyd House at the Honors Force in Chattanooga, Tennessee. It is glorious. I've dreamt about this for close to 15 years, I think, and I finally got to play it with my friend Chuck, who is actually here. This is not AI. This is not any kind of trick. We are actually here together as advertised, uh, enjoying a nice evening after a long day. The facilities here, what can I say? They're amazing. Uh, the honors has rolled out the red carpet for me. Chuck has rolled out the red carpet for me. My new pemp, ho, pemp, ho. Uh, it's been phenomenal. I can't say enough amazing things. The golf course, absolutely amazing. Got to play with a great friend. Uh really enjoyed it. So it's been a great week, but we're here.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

The golf channel didn't have live from Trademarked, we'd be making that the name of this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

But we're not because they do. We will get to so uh yeah, it's been fun. Been down here on the road as I tend to do, coaching. Uh, got to spend a lot of time with Chuck. Uh, a lot of the the hooligans that I know from the online space, but getting to be here in person is is really venture. So I can't can't take any credit for this. This is all Chuck's doing, and I am most appreciative.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

No, this was this week, it's been like golf camp to me. I feel like a kid. We got you here Tuesday, you came in Tuesday.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Going Tuesday, played golf Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Yeah, played golf Wednesday morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

We worked uh Tuesday camp on Tuesday afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

We had uh all live food. We just hung out, um, hitting balls and talking golf swing and short game and grabbed some dinner. Um and then Michael, who famously does not like to hit golf balls, not his thing. We're about to leave dinner, and he's like, Hey, they have some lights out there, like, yeah, they got lights. Can we go chip some more? Chipping's not hitting balls for the record. All right, well, he was excited to go back. I said absolutely, and played Wednesday morning with another Blue Trope disciple, Wayne Brantley, friend of the show. Uh, we had a blast with great caddies that morning. The caddies here are awesome. Fun guys, yeah, fun guys, smart guys, another stuff. They are the I've played a lot of places, been very fortunate to do so, that also have a caddy program, and the guys here there's a difference though.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

There's caddy programs, and you look past a lot because it's like tied into having scholars, it's tied into a lot of different things, and you're like other kids, and you let it go. Like these guys were pro jobs.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah, the this this place does it so well. The guys that are unbelievably well trained and a pro, and they're gonna get you around the golf course, they know what they're looking at, um, and great guys, and we had a blast, and it was fun. You hadn't played since October. Correct. And that's correct, and played awesome. We got to see some awesome wedge shots, basically hit every fairway. He was down playing like um thing I can play in. Well, demo clubs. Demo didn't have his own clubs, didn't even have golf balls. I had to buy him golf balls, play needed one, needed one golf ball on a 155 slope rated golf course. Yeah, it was fun. It was it was a treat for me. Uh, and I know it was for Wayne O too. I had a good time. I actually had a I I will go on record and say I had fun playing golf. It was a blast. There were a lot of laughs, a lot of good shots were seen.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Um yeah, it it was the dog shot at 73 and beat everybody's ass. Well, like 73 with a triple.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah. Just the shank triple that showed up.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah, I'm not claiming any responsibility for that shot.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

But no, but the rest was the rest was all all deutro lead and bread.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah. The short game, the short games were on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, that was fine.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Well, we're gonna get into that tonight because he has vastly undersold his short game skills and teaching ability. So we're gonna touch that. Um, and then Wednesday night. Um we had a full day Wednesday. So Wednesday was off early. We were balls in the air at 8:30. And then uh Michael had a presentation to our members, like a good group of members, uh, that evening. And um he's had a full day of lessons today. You got a full day tomorrow. Um the reviews have been off the charts. Been good, yeah. Um everybody wants you back.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Um you hear that in our word, you better show up. Yeah, I've got offers now.

The Force Plate Presentation Setup

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Yeah, he everybody's loved it. Uh, why don't you why don't you walk us through um what it was like for you Wednesday evening, um and your thoughts and your presentation. Um we've had the at the at the honors, we've had the plates, the force plates for about a year. And um that process, I have been on them previously, and um one of the pros here, Skyler Thompson, he was he was jumping on them um and got interested in them and the club bought them, but we've not had not had the knowledge base here to do what you do to to use them to to fully go in depth with harness the power. Yeah, I mean we had we had a Ferrari engine, but we were treating it like a Honda. So um was that a good racing term?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Uh Michael loves F1, not yeah. We'll we'll let it go. Honda's not doing well on F1 right now. But they are an F1, they are an F1. Okay, they're an engine supplier, they don't have a team, but they are an engine supplier. I was close, yeah. And and nothing against Honda. If Honda wants to sponsor this podcast, we will we will gladly promote Honda's. You could have an H right there on the I could have an H. We could do it right here, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Um, and I think this was super informative to our staff here, plus the membership of seeing you at work, and it was so fun. So we also had a dinner afterwards with everyone, and we couldn't get to dinner because the members were like all out on the range, like hitting and trying to do the thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was so cool to see, and well, I'll let you tell you you give your perspective of it.

Watching Swings Change In Minutes

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Well, I think before we get into that, you know, there there's a lot of places I get invited to, it's very nice. Uh nobody rules out the right part but like the honors. Um, and when you talk about the honors, you know, I think you have to talk about Henrik, I think you have to talk about Skylar. I have, I think you're obviously a member, but you know, it's rare that it's not so territorial that they'll bring somebody like me in. And that shows their maturity, that shows their generosity, that shows their willingness to do what they can do to help their members. And I think that I'm very appreciative and very thankful for Henrik and Skylar and the whole staff, uh kind of have not all kind of having me here to be able to engage with the membership and to do what I do. And as I said, and I'm gonna say repeatedly, they've been amazing to me. Uh, but you know, the thing that I've the only thing that actually made me nervous in the presentation was Henrik was there. And like he was geeking out. Like he really was invested in that, really cared about Skylar the same. Um, but just having those guys there, I think that shows a lot. Like, not only are they making this something that's available to you guys, the members, but they're also like in the front row seat. Like they want to learn how to get better at this, they want to continue to educate themselves. Like they're constantly professionals that way. So I think it was really cool and a huge honor for Henrik and Kai and Skylar and everybody to have me. Um, but getting to the presentation, I choked with you kind of while we were playing golf the morning of. I'm like, uh, what do you think I should talk about tonight? Uh and we kind of landed on just um opening it up, right? And I got my little stew out because I was tired from walking. It's a big property, a big walk. And I'm I haven't recovered fully from Augusta Nashville yet. And I just I really didn't have I have things I can fall back to. Obviously, I present a lot, I talk about this stuff a lot, but I thought it was really fun because being able to sit there and you know, kind of get it rolling and then just kind of open it up. I thought that was really fun and really cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah, it became uh quickly a QA, not right, but a discussion. Like it became this very cool open discussion, and you've got our pros chiming in with questions, and you've got members chiming in.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I was shocked at how educated the membership was. We've got some golf nuts here. Yeah, I was really impressed by that. I mean, I got some fantastic questions.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, it it was very fun for me to sit back and watch and and uh Chuck was like a proud dad sitting there.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, it was very like, look at me sharing my favorite toy with everybody. Yeah, show and tell. I I brought Michael to you got some credit for that, which good on good on once again Henrik and Skylar for recognizing like Chuck's kind of the one that found him, and we like him, so we're gonna keep them.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

And and and Henrik has said multiple times today how excited he is about what that looked like and getting Michael back, and he's gonna take a lesson in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Um, for me, but it was um it's a hell of a player. Uh you played with him this afternoon, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Sounds like and he and he was geeking out because he was only thinking about what you had discussed, and we're playing a 7100-yard golf course and nearly 7200, and he shoots the easiest 68 I've ever seen. Um the guy nearly had two all-in-one. Um, he can play. Um, but the discussions were great, and it was um out in the teaching center, and and so we had the plates set up.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Which is cool. I mean, like you're a national club, and for those of you who maybe are listening and not familiar, how many local members are there, Roughland?

SPEAKER_00 11:22

I bet we're only I bet we are 70, 30 national.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

There's probably only 30 percent of our so 70 percent of the membership leave lives at least 50 miles away from there. I'm I'm assuming that's kind of the geography breakdown of a national. 80, 80 or 90 miles becomes national. So most of the the members that are here don't live here. Yeah, they're not coming out during the week and practicing and playing every weekend. They're coming in, they're staying in one of these amazing cottages that are here, and they're spending a weekend, but then they're going back home. They're not living here. And the the teaching center is just something you don't see at a national club. You don't see that. And it's not just a learning center to where they build a building and that's nice, and it's like somewhere to hit balls when it's raining. I mean, you guys have got two track men in there, you have the force plates, you have the well pot table, sand putt lab, uh, full fitting. I mean, it it's really an amazing facility, but it was really cool. Um the setting was great because we're in this. You're in my environment. Yeah, this is where I like to be. I like to teach.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yeah, and Michael's just kind of hanging on the stool right in front of everybody and um taking all comers. Yeah, and the questions kind of we we were an hour in and people kind of flew by and people jumped on the plates for a minute, and it was fun because you could show, like, hey, everybody, look, here's what we've done. And the what I think bought every bought a lot of people in, and and this is this is what got me initially of wanting to work with you that and I'm not trying to say anything poorly about anybody that I've ever worked with before because I've I've loved to, I've worked with, and yeah, as I've said, still success with everybody. Still close, like still would be friendly and friends with them. Um nothing against them, but it is the here's what it's telling you and measured, and I'm not I'm not guessing, I'm not and and and you're like I'm not telling you one way or the other, I'm just reading what it tells you. Yeah, I'm just reading this back to you. Yeah, and what was so cool is that people kept asking questions of, and this is what kind of led to you jumping on plates, people kept asking, well, how would you teach this or like this plane, that? And you were like, Well, I really don't touch your swing, like I don't give you any swing uh thoughts. Like we just get on the plates and we start moving pressure and we start applying forces differently, and it was incredible to see, and I think that's when the eyes were opened. Uh, we get a guy up on the plates and in two swings, he visibly does something different. And people could see it, and they could then see it on the iPad of like, oh my gosh, he only had 65% pressure in his rear. Whoa, he just went to 93. The ball did something different, his body did something different. And the swing was completely different. And and you never said he had his, he had like some some long, he's got long levers, he's got the highest arms I'd seen in a while. Yeah, really high arms uh in his swing plane, and you said nothing about that, and in two swings, it looked totally different.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah, I mean, I think that's always interesting, right? Is you know, doing this a fair amount and coaching a lot, you know. I I to be perfectly honest, look at golf swims very little. Um, what do I think it should look like? That it once again, that doesn't fit into that objective world that I like to try to be in.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

And someone asked you that question about watching golf swims, and then you were like, oh, well, today on the golf course, I don't know if I watched Shuck swing once, but I watched his lead leg because that's what we work on.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah. Like, I mean, that that's just it, right? I'm I'm very interested in, I think, probably different things than a lot of golf coaches are. And there's guys that aesthetically like this, there's guys and girls that aesthetically like that. I I don't know what's right for you. I I couldn't, you could hold a gun to my head, I wouldn't answer the question because I I don't know until I kind of look at what are you doing, and then how is that influencing what we're seeing? So for me, uh, and that was that was really, I couldn't have had a better person get on the plates in front of everybody because like he clearly has a somewhat unique looking swing to begin with. And you know, having Henrik there, I think maybe Henrik's worked with him a little bit. Like he kind of commented on some of that stuff that we were seeing, and then for Henrik himself to step in there and be like, Whoa, how'd you change that in two points? Yeah, right. Like, and I did, I didn't I didn't change that. Like, I 100% did not change that. Gentleman did what he needed to do with the new motion, and I I I was flapping at him a little bit, right? And trying to get things to move a little quicker. Um, but it is really interesting to me how how many places I've been. And generally, like when I'm coaching, there's normally people who are observing, or there's other coaches there, whatever the case may be. But it's funny because, like, wow, man, like you really totally overhauled his backswing, or wow, his transitional. I I didn't do any of it. I just literally got this person thinking more about how they're trying to create that energy, how they're trying to use those forces and torques, and then trying to get it to happen with better timing. And for the example we're talking about, this person very high arms, and like their pressure loaded okay. I wouldn't say it was great, but it was very, very below your threshold, below where I would like to see it, uh, and was very, very late, was like loading it completely at the top of the swing. And it's just like he was, in my opinion, and I don't know because I'm not him, but in my opinion, it's just like he's trying to create some leverage, he's trying to create some speed. And it's like, well, yes, you can create some leverage or some speed that way, but there's a way more efficient way to do this. And the minute that we showed him how to start using his body to do that and and creating the leverage against the ground, he immediately he abandoned this very quickly. I didn't tell him to.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, yeah, there was no incentive for him to want to. No, he didn't have time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Right. So once we had the timing kind of in place, we get the point of application, the line of pressure, we get the sequencing in place, which he already had, but the timing was off. Once we had the timing kind of go, he just doesn't have time to mess around back there anymore and and try to create all this leverage. So it was funny because his speed went up, the other gentleman's speed went up, and I mean it it's like you said, it's it's within two to five swings, and everybody I worked with today, I think, gained at least five miles an hour of club speed, not ball speed, but um, so yeah, it's it's it's monumental, it's trans, it's transformative uh for the people when you kind of and and one of the comments I heard a lot today too was you know, my last guy was a hoot, right? Sports medicine guy, awesome guy, really enjoyed my time with him. Uh, thought he was amazing. Because it's it's fun for me to throw my hat in the ring with somebody way more intelligent than I am and actually formally trained on the things that I talk about. Because I can just kind of throw things out. I don't have to come up with analogies and and kind of ways to say it. Because if I look at you and I go, let's talk about your ass to tabby, I'll be like, what? Yeah, right. But if I tell him ass to tab, I'm just like, oh yeah, yeah, good one. You know, I break your radio. All right. Yeah. So like for me to A, make sure that I'm saying things correctly, B, be able to kind of fact check myself against him, because he's gonna tell me if I'm I'm being stupid or I'm just making things up. But having him like come in and see some pretty significant change and be very good happy. By the way, everybody's happy, but seeing him see that change, be very happy and then make the comment, it's like, you know, it's this is a lot easier thinking about this than it is like all this positions and where I gotta be at this point and what like we don't want to think our way through this. We want to be reactive, we want to be an athlete. Like it's way what makes golf very hard is the fact that you got to sit there and look at it and pull the trigger. Like, I think that for a lot of golfers is what gets in their way is like, how do I pull the trigger? Well, if that baseball gets thrown at you 95 miles an hour, you're either gonna swing or you're not. So you you're a little more reactive and a little less kind of thinking how you do that. And that's what I kind of like about the ground reaction forces it allows us to be more reactive uh and a little less kind of thinking and methodical and trying to plan this whole thing out.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Uh and that is perfectly summed up where my journey has been of You were a nightmare when I met you.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Like, not a not not because you didn't know things, in my opinion, you knew so much. And you're like, well, what about this? And what about this? And what about this? And what about this? I'm like, Chuck, that's wonderful. You can do all those things if you want, but I just need you to focus on this. Yeah, and like being able to kind of redirect you, and and you have an athletic background, you've played sports at a decent level in the past. So allowing you to to kind of just quiet the monkey banging symbols in your head and go, hey, let's let's just do this one thing, and then we'll we'll get there if we need to. But like we can start here and stay here for a little while.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, here I you know, I come in and I know that I have an inside takeaway, roll the club. I know that it can get slightly steep in transition, that my ground reaction is terrible. So, like here I am thinking, well, I've got to manage all of this to produce the ball flight that I want to see. And it's until you get someone on the plates, no one understands that when they ask me um when people that see me play and see how well it's going and they secret it out, by the way. A lot of people are talking about how you're playing and they add. And they say, you know, well, what are you guys working on? And it's hard to explain to them like, well, I'm really feeling the pressure to react to a uh a draw or a fade or a strength ball, or like I'm just kind of feeling this, and oh well, you're backsling. Yeah, I'm not even thinking about my takeaway because I'm applying this force to create this move. And it was, I think that was the eye-opening moment, as I've said, for the the group out there last night. And I think that people were finally understanding the journey that I've been on of I've I don't have the answers yet. It's out there. I don't have it. I'm gonna keep seeking and find you. And it's like, oh my gosh, this is this is the the answer that we've been searching for, and and um that it isn't this how do I get in this position? Because there were a lot of those questions, and it finally took like, hey, why don't you jump up here? I'll and I'll show you. And um I think that's such a unique piece about this that it it is breaking so many molds and so many widely held um that's the word I'm looking for, just widely held in the golf community. Yes, I mean it yeah, it kind of cuts through it all.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah, I mean, even Henrik. It also exposes something that's a universal truth about golfers trying to get better. And like one thing I noticed today a lot, and and this isn't indicative of just the people that I worked with today. This is common everywhere I go in my facility in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Um I really like kind of cutting to the white meat, if you will, if you will. And what I mean by that is, you know, as you've seen a bunch of times, I've done it with you, I've done it with people you've watched me work with. I have a process for how I break down this information. It starts with line of pressure, it starts with point of application. If we don't have that, I don't even look at graphs.

Point Of Application On The Feet

SPEAKER_00 24:32

So why don't we start us there? Right. So if if if we're you know, episode whatever we are on of season seven, uh break down for someone listening from you kind of what you did last night, uh start us with point of application and line of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

So we're on the balls of our feet.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah, we have to.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

That's the point of application. That's the point of application.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Meaning that is where we feel like we're in the ground.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

We were to get in the uh somebody used this, and I'm stealing the amusement and all that. If if you get in a swimming pool and you get out to get a drink or whatever, and you walk across the concrete and your feet are wet, when you look at the wet pavement where you walked, you don't see your whole foot. Right, you see the outline or the part of the foot where you actually pushed and walked from. So I like that a lot, but I want you to imagine only seeing the ball of your foot like you're walking like this, versus trying to put your heel down.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

I think the an example you used was you would if you're gonna do a box jump and we're gonna grab a rebound. Well, you're not gonna be in your heels, you're not gonna that point of pressure isn't going to be in my heels or in my toes, like it's going to be in the balls of my feet. I'm I'm ready to spring.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

And so that was the point of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Mr. Hudson said, I'm out of track meat, ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

And then I took a lesson today. Yeah, which was great. I really enjoyed your dad. But we we've got to get this basic, and and I think point of application, line of pressure, we're talking about the same thing. It's just we've kind of got a macro and a micro kind of viewpoint of this. So the macro viewpoint is we've got to be on the balls of our feet, period. Uh, that's a non-negotiable for me. Uh, we haven't measured anybody that has good ground reaction forces or good movement setting up on their heels, don't see it. Uh, I've talked to God knows how many body mechanists about this. It's balls of feet, it's balls of feet in every sport. And even though golf has been labeled as being an unathletic, leisurely activity, we know with the ball speeds or the club speeds we see players making now, it's obviously very athletic. So balls of feet, point of application, it's huge. Gotta see it. That is the first place I look at. And if you're listening to this, and I told Chuck this yesterday, I would say probably 80% of the people in attendance last night probably were thinking to themselves, uh, that's not me. I know what I'm doing, I know how to set up. But what I see is that 80% of the people that I work with are not getting that point of application correct. I mean, almost every person that stepped on the plates last night. It was an issue.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

It was an issue.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Um, I think I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

And mostly the people were on the arches of their feet. They're just kind of like finding the middle of their foot and just kind of standing there, yeah. Kind of like we would if we were to standing there having a conversation with them. But they're not in an active and ready position, right? So point of application for me is huge. And then if we want to take the micro or if we want to enhance kind of what we're talking about with point of application, then that ties into lunch pressure. So the easiest way to think about that is if I'm standing on the balls of my feet, which are back here behind the toes. If I'm standing on the balls of my feet, even though I'm on the balls of my feet, we want to get a little bit more on the front part of the ball of the lead foot. So just behind the second toe, ideally, kind of towards the front of that ball. And then in the tro foot, we want to get a little more towards the back side of that ball. And what that's creating is that's creating a way for me to create torque very easily, quickly in the backswing. Because as you know, we got to get a lot of things done by P3.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

And for anyone listening and not watching, you would feel like I think my dad said it today, you feel a little close.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

If you were to close your eyes and create a positive line of pressure, I think that you would swear that I've somehow like very sneakily closed your saints.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yes. So you're so that that should be kind of your feel. And I know that that for me feels like I'm a little close. But I'm not draw biased.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Look, this is not a conversation about how do you hit a draw. This is whether you want to hit a fade, you want to hit a draw, whatever shot you want to hit, it does not matter to me. But when it comes to creating torque, we've got to get our line of pressure to where it is positive or closed or pointed to the right relative to the target line, because that's going to allow me to create that torque very quickly in the backstone.

Line Of Pressure Creates Torque

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Because if it's the give us if it's the opposite, what what happens if if it's opposite?

SPEAKER_01 29:39

So if we think about this, let's say we're we're lined up squares square it can be relative to our target line. If we get that line of pressure negative, which means or leftward, right? If we get that pointed, let's say negative or left, or you could say open, okay, that would get a feel, right? It's very open feel. What ends up happening is that line of pressure is now pointed the opposite of the direction that you want to initially move. And when it's pointed the opposite direction of where you want to move, this is where it gets very interesting because when we think of pressure, we have to think of why is pressure important. Well, pressure is important because pressure is the predecessor to where mass is going to want to move. So for so many people that we see early extending, I saw it all day today. For people who are really struggling with early extension, one of the telltale signs that they are going to struggle is that the pressure under their right foot kind of gets tracked up there forward towards the toes, towards the ball of that foot, and they don't get that pressure to move towards the heel. So why does that happen? Why does it get stuck there? Well, I've kind of got myself feeling open. My line of pressure is turned the opposite direction of how I want to move. So now I almost have to work against myself to try to create that torque early enough. And as we know, the torque has to happen super early. So they're just eating up all their time trying to like turn through this invisible wall that they've created.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

And if you're listening, you should stand up and have sort of a closed stance and an open stance and try with the open stance to turn into your back swing. You immediately feel that mask go right into the toes.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

And if conversely, if you close it and you start turning, you feel it go into that heel where, oh, I could push pretty good from here.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

I can't push the other one up in my toes. Right. Like I can't, I'm not creating any torque. And I think that led us right into okay, once we've got those two things and we we're now set up to produce some forces. It was interesting for people to see how quickly once that and and for me too. I I've I've I work on this of how quickly you need to get the mass or the excuse me, you need to get the pressure into that rear side, and then how quickly it goes the other way.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

It's not static, it's not hanging out on that right side.

The Backswing Ends At P3

SPEAKER_00 32:24

And if there was one example of uh the gentleman that was on, and you were doing the clapping to try and get him to engage the downswing faster, but it was at P3, so P3 being club parallel or arms parallel, that he needed to be moving the other direction. And as you and I have talked about my golf swing, it's not a we're rushing every like I hear what people can hear, hey, you get in and out of it, and you need to be moving the other direction while your arms are still traveling, and it almost feels like, oh, I've got to like pull the arms down, and I'm I'm bad at this, I'll pull them down early. Where you started to show people that, hey, your pressure can move into that spot and then move out of it while those arms continue to go, which creates this stretch without thinking about creating this. So again, we've done something without thinking about being in that position.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, and I think, you know, for the people who are listening who are familiar with golf instruction, you know, Jim McLean has talked extensively, written books about the X factor stretch. Um, and I I don't disagree with the concept that there's definitely a separation between the pelvis and the thoracic spine in terms of rotations. So we definitely want to get the club going back while my pelvis is going forward, which is really going to kind of almost wind that rubber band up and stretch that out. Um, but it also ties into what we've been working on most recently, which is we've kind of got the kinetics in a fairly decent place with you. Uh, you've worked your ass off to do that. Um, but we've kind of got these kinetics in a in a better place to where you have a foundation now. And that's kind of how I think of it, right? Is is we got to get the pressure, the line of pressure, the point of application loading into the trail side, which is generally the next thing we look at after point of application, line of pressure. But once we can kind of load and do these things, you know, as you've said, we don't really have a whole lot of thinking to do about the backs. That is the backswing. Point of application, line of pressure, that's set up. And then the backswing is loading into the trail side. Okay, it's not where you get with your arms, it's not what positions you're trying to accomplish. It's getting loaded into that trail side. That's what the backswing actually is. Now, the minute that you load, as you kind of alluded to earlier, we're loaded at P3. That's the end of the backswing. And I say that to people all the time, they think I'm crazy. But that is the end of the backswing. Everything, and look, I'm not saying that's where the club stops going back.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

And that's keep going because this is if you're listening, this is where I was lost, and that Michael had to explain, like, look, you've got to give up a little control here. Right. You've got to let these arms go right and let them go where they want to go.

Kinematic Sequence For Club Speed

SPEAKER_01 35:41

And that could because I was totally dictated on. So if we're talking steep or shallow back swan, that that's not a choice, it's not an option. That is, and I'll give uh Mr. Mike Adams' fair credit because I learned this from him. But if my wingspan is greater than my height, so I have long arms, right? If my wingspan is greater than my height, I am going to have a more upright backswan. If my wingspan is shorter or less than my height, I'm gonna have a flatter back swan. It's not up for you to try to put it on a plane, one plane, two plane, three plane. I don't know, but I do want to understand the relationship between your wingspan, your height because that's going to give me a very strong indication of kind of what to expect to see. So to your point, we get to P3, arms parallel, backswing's done. The rest of the time is this transitional phase. And this transitional phase is key because we get to arms parallel P3, and what we know from the kinematic sequence. So now we've moved from talking about forces and torques in the ground to now we're talking about what we see visually moving. Okay, so we're talking more anatomy now. So we're getting into this kinematic sequence, and we know that the sequence that we want to see for maximum efficiency when it comes to creating club head speed is we want to see the pelvis rotate towards target first. Now that starts as soon as you get to P3. So literally, you're taking the club back, you're only at arms trailer, you're you're still going, and you're already kind of starting to create that stretch with that pelvis rotating back towards the target. So it goes pelvis, then it goes torso, then it goes arms, then it goes club. But what that creates for you, the advantage that that creates is kind of like the analogy that I used with you the other night. And I'm sure somebody that knows way more about physics than me is going to probably comment on this and bust me. But if we just think about this simply, if you're driving, you're on the correct side of the car. So in this country, anyway. So if you're driving the car 80 miles an hour and I hang out the side window and throw a ball at 20 miles an hour, how fast is the ball moving? Well, it's moving 100 miles an hour. So, how do we get the arms that only move at about 20 miles an hour, max speed, to like create all this speed? Well, it's they ride and they gather speed, like if I was in that car traveling 80 miles an hour. So let's say I get the body moving at 80, and then I add 20, the last little piece to that. Now all of a sudden I've created all this speed, but trying to make the speed at the top and stall the body, that's like slowing the car down to 30. I throw it at 20, all of a sudden I made 50. I've got half the velocity on the ball that I threw as I would have if the car would have just kept going 80. So so many people that I see, you know, are really stalling out this kinematic sequence in order to try to deliver the club. And not only does it it really costs them a lot of speed, but then it also requires really precise timing to point the face where we want this ball to go.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

And that's uh I like the way you described that there for the listeners that backswing done by P3, and then there's a transitional phase because we I kept getting lost with us of you're like the backswing's done at P3, you gotta be moving the other way. And I'm thinking, I'm like pulling the arms also, like I'm thinking everything's moving, yeah. And we finally got it, and it happened on the golf course in like the second hole, and he was like chill out with your arms, like quit doing make them less be passive, and I think that's a great that's the giving up control to kind of gain control. And you explained it so well with that analogy of the car, and I'd not heard it that way until the other night, and that I'm trying to create, or in the past, I'm trying to create all the speed with my arms, like how fast can I move my arms? Well, that like you're saying, you've got to something's gonna stall for that to move then fast, and that really clicked with me, and I think it clicked with a lot of people in the in the um I think we all feel that.

Braking Forces And Shaft Myths

SPEAKER_01 40:16

I think we feel the arms, you know. Mr. Hudson, you know, himself was like, Yeah, kind of swing my arms. And it's like, all right, well, let's let's work on this a little bit. And and a lot of people I talk to today, I'm like, you're kind of arms eating. They're like, Yeah, I feel that, I get that. And it's like they just don't know how to get out of that, right? And I think the big thing once again is understanding that everything's kind of went by the time the arms go. So the arms are just kind of riding, if you will, in my opinion. And the way I think about it is vertical force is kicking in early. It's so early, people do it, it just blows their mind. But generally speaking, vertical force is kicking in somewhere between the club shaft uh uh vertical and the downswing, between club shaft vertical and the downswing and club shaft parallel and the downswing. That's where that's no, like we're nowhere near the ball yet. Yeah, so that's the point at which you're like, okay, I've used my vertical force, which is acted as a part of the braking system that we use to actually get the body to stop rotating. And now all of a sudden, like we've made all this energy, we've got all this momentum, we've got all this, whatever you want to call it, at our disposal. And all of a sudden, it's like that car that's moving 80 miles an hour hits a wall. Well, what happens to the trunk? It goes forward into the backseat, right? It gets smashed and compressed. That's us acting on the kick point of the golf club and getting that thing to finally release all that energy, hopefully, into the ball. But I need time to transfer that energy. And I think that's where people really get lost in the sauce is that I'm kicking the vertical force early, but keep in mind vertical force is my leg in the ground interacting. That has to transfer all the way from my foot through my leg, through my torso, through my arm, through the club, and finally to the ball. So I need time for that to transfer out to the ball. And that's where I think a lot of people, you know, don't really have much breaks, don't really have any mechanism to kind of finally get those arms to go and get that club to release. And generally, you know, we've seen we've seen this now for a long time, but you know, I disagree with it a bit. But you know, AutoFlex kind of came to market. Uh, and it was kind of the first first, and it wasn't the first of its kind, but it was the first one that people really kind of grabbed a hold of to where it's like this super lightweight, super whippy shaft. And it's like they're they're saying, hey man, like this thing's gonna help you hit it farther. Well, it's super whippy, and the thing is, is like people take this thing back, and because it's light and because it's whippy, you know, it really bends, and we get a lot of energy into the shaft. Well, the thing is, is that if you don't have a break and you put all this bend into it, now it's even harder to line up. So I don't know if you've ever used an autoflex shaft or not. I have. And when you kind of finally figure out how to kind of load it and get it to unload in time, man, you can you can gain some speed. There's no doubt about it. The problem is, for me at least, was when you know, I have to figure this thing out, and then I go to my irons, you know, let's say I'm playing a part of four, and all of a sudden it's a different profile altogether. It's a different kick point. I'm like, man, I just feel like I gotta make two completely different swings. You went from Gumby to a two bottle. Right. Absolutely. So I think the big thing that people that want to gain speed have to kind of realize is. You need a break. And I see Instagram videos all the time. It drives me crazy. People are talking about like doing this stuff with their hands and arms to break the club. That ain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

I think excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

I think you had an interesting one tonight when we hit one or two balls that um I finally one or two with this guy is like 200 just.

Fixing A Weak Fade Driver Miss

SPEAKER_00 44:26

We had a we've been getting what I feel like is really close to getting this thing dialed in. My swing kind of dialed in. And um the you talk tonight, because we've been kind of on this like we've got to let the arms do what they do. And a lot of what you're talking about um of that finishing the back swing, starting down, and having something to part of that break that you're talking about that I hadn't really understood fully until you've explained it several times to me, that we've got to have something to torque against. And that that's where you see the spin out, the lead leg, and that hip go early and get out of the way, and you see the the the pressure get into the the uh heel of the lead leg, and that lead leg gets really straight. Well, now there's nothing, I don't have anything to turn against and and stop me. And I think that two pieces to that are once the you get that stretch that we're we're talking about, and we want to transfer this energy. I felt it tonight of I'm gonna, you know, fight, I'm gonna push this leg into the ground and make it a post so I can fling these arms, and then I'm rot like at the same time that I'm rotating, and I've got something to turn against. And you were like, throw the club head and start to turn at the same time so that this club head is thrown out and that force is pulling that head through. And it was like a kind of a light bulb moment, and a little bit of what you're getting to with the members of again, you you didn't say anything about positions, you you were just talking about here's how we need to operate to see this motion.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yeah, because you know, full disclosure, you didn't have your best best stuff on the golf course today.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

And it's been a minute since I hadn't played well. Yeah. So Chuck sends up the smoke signals to 911. Uh and luckily I'm here on demand for him. Uh, and you know, you just came in uh hitting these like weak right shots with your driver, yeah. And which my driver's a weapon of mine. By the way, uh fun little tidbit. Was it the second hole yesterday? Oh, the crap, yeah, yeah. Bust his driver uh on the second hole because he hits it so hard. So hard. Okay, bust his driver on the second hole. That was that was a fun one, and it's busted.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Like I said, is this a crap? And you were like, Oh yeah, that's that's it's that thing's gone.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah, that thing is toast. So busted his driver on the second hole, but you know, you've had a you've had a day, which means Chuck's played 50 holes of golf and and hit 500 golf balls to to get used to the new driver. Um, but you know, you you came in. I was like, something's off. Something's off. This is not much at the kind of these weak, yeah, right, not very attractive drivers.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I must started right and went right there.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah. So the you know, the thing that you said to me that I thought was interesting is you were like, Oh, I I just can't, I can't get it going right to draw it. Yeah, I I felt like I couldn't get it. You felt like your path wasn't to the right. Yeah, and the funny thing was I at that point probably seen you hit 10 drives, and every single one of them, the path was right. Every one. So by the way, I also don't think golfers, this is why I think track man, a launch monitor that gives you a club path is a great tool. We don't really interpret path very well. Yeah, we don't feel path, that's for sure. So what you actually had going on was you had your path, you know, two to three degrees right, and then your face was another degree open, and then unfortunately you were kind of catching it out of the heel a little bit, so we get some gear effect on top of the ball that's already starting right, wanting to fade right. We give it a little gear, and now it's kind of really moving too much to the right. And we talked a little bit because I knew that the path was already correct. Um, because we had track man running and we could see it. I was kind of paying attention to it. But, you know, we did some stuff to kind of clean up the diagonal push, right? Because we create this positive line of pressure, and then we initially are maintained, we're increasing that line of pressure during the backswing to the right, and then we're kind of following that line with that pushing of the mass via lateral force to the toe box of the lead foot.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

And that was that was a bit as I pause you there, once you pick that back up, but that was the oh yeah, that's the path, like that positive pressure. There's my path, there's my here's where I'm about to get that ball started, right? Sending it right. I and that was that again is the importance of the setup and that line of pressure, line of pressure and point of application, getting everything set for you to be able to apply that pressure at the correct time. So it was like, okay, I'm gonna now apply a pressure going towards the target, but at an angle to the right. So keep keep going.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

So we we did that, and in fairness, I already knew that the path was right, and I knew that wasn't gonna solve our issue. But I knew that we needed to clean that up because, like we said, from a kinematic perspective, pelvis, torso, arms flop. I knew that you already were kind of getting it, we just needed to tweak it a little bit. But the the missing ingredient was you weren't really getting into that toe box enough to, like you said, you kind of hit that post, you kind of find that anchor point to finally turn. Yeah. So what was kind of happening to you is that even though we had the path a bit to the right, there was not a stop point on the arc for that face to kind of find square and then start to work close. So we want to kind of, in a way, I'm not entirely sure that this is McBregone, I think it is, but we create a lot of centrifugal force with that club head traveling around this arc that we create. So where the the real sauce for you was was getting you to kind of plant and then not spin out, like you said, because I think that's kind of what you were doing a little bit of that was kind of not creating enough break to get that head or that face turned in time with centrifugal force. So we were able to get you to set that break and then turn aggressively, and that's what kind of throws that toe of the club head around that arc and gets it closing enough for you to where, yes, you can start at a touch right by getting the path and getting the face open relative to the target line. Okay, so I'm not saying that we're hitting it with a closed face, but the face does have to be closed relative to the path while being open to the target line to start the ball to the right, assuming that you hit it off the middle. So I felt like it was really important for you, instead of trying to strengthen a grip or instead of trying to tweak some wrist angles or what have you, it was important for me to get you to kind of feel more of that let go and let the club head travel on whatever arc it's on. And once we kind of got that, and you hit honestly, I think you hit some of the best drives tonight that I've seen you hit.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

And it was it was fun because it was a it was a quick fix, but it was it was a lot of just pressure and timing. It wasn't like you just said, oh, strengthen the grip, or oh you know getting a little laid off.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Getting a little laid off, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

There wasn't any conversation of these golf buzzwords. Right. And um, you know, you can tell our our listener, I may have gotten the sequence wrong, but when um to correct me, but to recap that one, it was a as as the backswing finished, and what we've been talking about of this backswing finishing at P3, it was then that stretch happening, and and as the backswing was finishing, I was going ahead into this positive pressure kind of torquing into that with the legs to set up kind of that closed feel. Um, and then from there I was even kind of feeling like I was and and you may have to help me explain it, but almost throwing like almost I'm afraid to say the word cast, but it may be that so I think of a cast, because this came up a lot today in my lessons.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

I think of a cast as like somebody throwing the club towards the ball out of it, right? So that like when I hear cast, I don't I don't think of this like on the plane. Like I can take the club from here and throw it down the plane.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

For those listening, he's showing like a backswing and then working his arms down the plane, down quote down the plane. When I think of a cast, I'm thinking more like this more towards the target, not down the line, but towards the target. Towards the ball. Yeah, towards the ball.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Right. So that's kind of how I think of a cast.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

So because you wanted me to get this club starved, yeah, get the club head out.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

So, like we've said, right? So if we're working down from the top of the swing, very quickly the shaft is, you know, gonna be vertical and or get to parallel. But that's happening very quick. Yeah, we got to let this thing go. We want to create the stretch within the arm, right? So we got to throw that head out to create tension.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

And for the people listening, are you do you want to see them go? Because you see, some people do that whole like, oh, you you push it behind you, but yeah, I think that's true.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

I think, but once again, we're we're trying not to throw it forward. We're not trying to throw it towards the ball, we're not trying to throw it forward towards the target, we're actually trying to throw it behind us. So you do like that. You do like that, right? We're trying to throw it out, and then I've got some extension in the arms, I can actually load fancy word, brachi radialis of the arms, which is this muscle that kind of connects the lower and upper arm. But now I got some tension in here, and now instead of trying to like chicken wing this thing to get it to low point or what have you, now it's like I'm here, I'm planted on my lead side, my arms are all the way over here. The only thing I got left to do is turn the chest. Yeah. And now all of a sudden I have this nice wide arc at the bottom, and I have tons of face stability. And that's where life starts getting really good for people uh when they finally don't have to time up the face, they don't have to time up or try to figure out the path. Rather, they just have this big long, wide arc at the bottom, and now the face is staying, it's not constant, I don't want to say it is, but the face is the face-to-path relationship is staying in a manageable window for much longer.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Yeah, and it never felt like, and and again, we didn't talk any positions, we just were talking pressures. When I threw that clever out and and got that thing moving. Yeah, sorry. When I got it going behind me, yeah, yeah. When I threw it out, I could feel my lead leg go ahead. Like it's gotta stabilize, like for you to throw move something, it's there's gotta be some stabilizing happening opposite of the side you are 100%. So it was like, oh, I feel that, I feel this stable base, and then you're trying to shut that against one, and then yes, then that's where I'm not opening the hip, I'm not moving my knee, I'm not doing anything with my pelvis, but just turning into it and letting this thing all go and all kind of your previous conversation, right?

Why Measurement Beats Guesswork

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Like, what is a torque, what is a rotation? You know, I think so many golfers kind of treat from kneecap to shoulder as this like singular block or singular unit. They just think it turns and turns and turns raising my hand because that was me for sure. You know, we turn back, we turn through. Excuse me, but the the thing that you're alluding to there is the pelvis is done turning when you apply vertical force, when you get that pressure into your lead side, that stabilizes that lead femur. That's what that does. So if you think of the big bone in the top of your leg, that's your femur. And if it stops moving, now you have this like post, if you will, or this rod, and now all of a sudden, like the pelvis that's on the top side of that can't really do anything, and now it's like, oh, well, wait a minute, I've thrown this thing out, I've got to turn the corner. Yeah, what's the next thing? So if I can't go here, I'm gonna go here. But now I'm able to really feel how that twist and stretch and torque against the leg. We're not trying to turn the hip and the thoracic region, I'm sorry, the hip, the abdomen, and the thoracic together. We're trying to stabilize that pelvis, we're trying to stabilize your lumbar spine. If you're having back pain, this is problem. I think we're gonna see way more back issues with so many people spinning out, but that's a conversation for another time. But the lumbar, the lower lumbar is not designed to twist, it doesn't happen that way. The above where your diaphragm is, this is the thoracic spine, this is what twists. So it's the only thing you can't twist. Yeah. So if we can create some stability with this lower body, now we actually have the potential to create some torque and some twist with that thoracic spine, which is something that if you talk to the guys at TPI or if you talk to any of the guys in the medical community, what do golfers not do? Well, they don't create thoracic mobility. Well, why not? Well, they can't transfer the forces through the body quickly enough or in the right sequence to kind of get this last gear to turn. And that's kind of how I think of it. I think of the body, I don't know that I've said this to you before, but and I used to say this all the time, I should start saying it again. I think of the body in terms of a sequence, like a watch. So if I was to take the crystal off this watch and take the uh what are the dial, look at that. I know a little bit about watches. If I took the the crystal off, I took the dial off. When I get that off of there, there's gonna be a bunch of tiny little gears. Tiny little gears, because I've got like you know, multiple things going on. So I've got all these tiny little gears. But if I start stripping away all the tiny little gears, I start finding bigger gears and bigger gears. And then if I get to the very bottom of that watch was a really big gear, right? So it's kind of big gears, and then little gears, and then smaller gears. So I kind of think of the ground forces and the line of pressure and the point of application. That's my big gear. Like, that's the gear that I really got. Like, if that one doesn't turn, none of the other ones are gonna turn. So I've got to kind of get this point of application, line of pressure, ground reaction force, whatever you want to call it. I've got to get that big gear kind of working correctly. And now that gives me the opportunity to take the mid-gears or the the middle gears, right? Which let's call those, you know, the the legs, the pelvis, the torso, the trunk, all that. Now all of a sudden I can kind of get that turning correctly. But then that last little piece, these tiny little gears just underneath the dial, though that's gonna be when we start getting way up here in the chain. And that's gonna be like your thoracic spine. And that's the last little gears to turn. So if if we kind of think of sequencing as I've kind of described these gears, you know, there's a lot that can be fixed because these little gears are gonna start turning awfully wonky if the big gear starts to missing a beat. So it's, you know, do you want to kind of go from the tail uh of the cat to the mouth, or do you want to go from the mouth to the tail? Which one's gonna be more effective? You know, I think for a long time we've kind of talked about all this stuff that we could see, but like I said in the presentation last night, we've we've been able to look at golf swing since like the 1400s, right? So golf is very old, uh, goes back a long way. We've looked at this forever, we've written volumes about this, we've written multiple books about this, but largely it's been based off what we see. The thing about the ground forces, the point of application, the line of pressure, uh, these things is that we can't see them. They're invisible. So, you know, I get the question all the time am I am I an effective coach without the force points? And I like to believe, and this is probably my ego, the answer to that is yes. I do teach a fair amount without the aid of the force points.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:42

Yeah, because the the lessons you had today and and the lessons we've had, you you use it for two or three, you just get some data. Yeah, and then you're like, okay, this confirms what I think, or maybe it gives me an opinion on something else, and then you're ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

Yeah, it's not like you're on it though. I'm back to coaching, yeah, right. So I'm looking at it going, where is this wonky? And where do I actually need to put my focus and coach? Now, with that being said, point of application, line of pressure keeps saying how important this is. You can't visually see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Can't visually see it or measure it, or I mean, not without the plates. Like you can't measure it, see it, do anything about it without plates.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Right. So for me, it's like I can do some things, right, to kind of manipulate that and kind of almost guarantee that that's happening. But I really like having the confirmation. I think the force plates are an invaluable tool. And I and I always answer the question the same way. Yes, I feel like I'm an effective coach without them. However, why would I ever choose to do that if I have them available? Why guess when you can imagine? Why guess when you can imagine?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

And you um you can show the player, you can sit there in live mode to show them, like, hey, here's your like, let's go ahead and move that that line of pressure, or let's move that point of banification. And they can feed, they can immediately get this feedback of, oh, that's not enough. That's not enough. Okay, there it is. They're like, wow, I'll never how would you have ever had a player feel that for?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Yeah, you know, I don't even think I was aware of it, to be honest. And it's it's such low-hanging fruit, and it has such a big, it has such a big effect on the overall outcome of things. And I I mean, I literally, uh, Dr. Tyler Standerford out of Utah Valley State, um, kind of the I don't think he's the head biomechist, but he's the one of the main biomechs for smart to move. And we talked about we talked about this a lot. And it's man, like we should have caught on to this way sooner. We've we've had pressure mats for quite a while. Like, that's not a new technology. It's not nearly as new as the force plates are, not as readily available. Maybe it's a better way to say that. And we we should have been looking at this. We just, you know, it's like anything, man. Like, you know, pressure was the thing, it kind of went out of style, people didn't really understand it. People still don't understand it. People don't understand that center of pressure is not where your center of mass is. Um, they they don't really understand those things, but you know, man, like we kind of had to go like almost full circle and get into all these forces and torques and moment arms and impulses and things like that. Before we were like, man, is there not an easier way? Yeah. And now that there's this easier way, it's just man, it's so much more fun to coach because what I enjoy, kind of going back to the presentation last night, you know, it's fun to be me. And the reason I say it's fun to be me is I remember early on in my coaching career, it was like one up. One down, one up, one down. Like I would teach 12 lessons a day, six days a week. Like that's what I did. I worked at an academy, my calendar was full all the time. I had one hour with this person. I had no relationship with them. It's like, man, you better figure this out because the next one's coming. You can't, you can't slow down progress, you know. Like you got to stay on time. I've always believed you start a lesson on time, you end a lesson on time. Uh sometimes I don't end them on time, but that's that's that's on me. But, you know, generally you got to start these lessons on time. So, you know, I remember the stress of not having force plates, not having track man, and you're 45 minutes into a lesson, and the next person's warming up, and you're like, oh god, we haven't hit a good one yet. Like, you know, it's it's difficult to teach a golf lesson. It's difficult to get people to make a change. People and change don't go hand in hand, so that's tough. Um, but with the plates, with what I understand now, it's so much fun, man, to like you said, just be like, hey, I don't really have any opinions on the matter, but here's what I measure. And then it's like so much fun to get people up there. And look, man, good on the people that got up on the plates last night, the front of in front of the yeah, you know, like it's like we all hit golf balls on the first T in front of people. It's like the most uncomfortable feeling ever. So these people got up there on top of the plates.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

We don't have the best setup, but you've got the plate setup you're on, and then you got to hit off this turf math. Like it's it's an uncomfortable bit of a smoke, it's not super comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

No, 100%. And to be able to go, hey, here's the issue, here's what we got to do, and here's like an like to be able to call your shot, like point to the outfield and hit a grand slant, like it's so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

And the the questions that were had early in the evening, you know, you had the oh, those two planes and the swing you you had all the golf jargon going, and questions it died the minute people got on there and started hitting it, and people were seeing, and the nice thing is from our teaching center, you can also see you hit out into the rain, so you see this ball flight. Yeah, it's not like looking at the screen, and you could visually see like, oh, that ball flight was different than when he first got up there. And you like the ooh, like you everybody could then like, oh, that looked different, or oh, that sounded different. And it was uh you know, the questions and the the uh uh skepticism immediately dissipated. It was just like foop gone, and everybody was when it's my turn.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

And it's fun. I mean, it it's so much fun. You know, I coach because I care about people, you can't coach if you don't care about people. Um, and it's like you know, those people, like you said, they're excited. And you know, obviously, I think if you're a member here, you're a golf nut. I don't think you could be here and not be a golf nut. You know, this is a a a very pure version of what the game is supposed to be. Um, but to see those people who have seen a lot, have experienced a lot, um, you know, have a lot of things going well in their life, like to give them the intrigue back, to give them the excitement back, to give they didn't want to come to dinner, they wanted to go. Yeah, right, it's right hit balls. Yeah, right. You know, to get people excited about it. Like that's me being able to share the thing that I love so much and have kind of devoted my life to. So I just I think that's the best. Like, I really enjoy, you know, and once again, like I don't want it to come off as I like to show off and prove how right I am. It's not about me. It's like you said, I'm I'm just the conduit of the information. Like that's that's what I'm here to do. Like, you have questions, and I'm gonna get you the answers. And I just feel like a kid cheating on a test because like I feel like you know it's a take-home test, uh, and the teacher trusts me not to use the internet, and it's like I got qualified disposal. So you know, I'm I'm getting this right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

But I think that's what makes what you're doing different. That you're you're very humble to say it's not me. I'm just interpreting to you what this information is saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

And um you know, that part is the truth, that's a true skill. And also the skill then to give feedback of or drills of like, here's how we can uh change what's what we're not seeing done to the level that needs to be done.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Um, but that is what's different about you and and how it works of just like I'm not I'm not giving you an opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

Yeah. I am how we're gonna get the how we're gonna get to the the end answer, uh yeah, there's some opinion in there. There is the art of coaching there, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:19

Yeah, there's the art of it. Right. But the the issues and the the things that are flawed and that need to be fixed, that isn't the opinion. There is no yeah, I think it could be this. So we're gonna spend three weeks do ah man, that didn't work.

Better Coaching Through Fast Diagnosis

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

Like, I mean, it it's not any different, really. And look, I I'm not a medical professional, but you know, if the doctor, if you could walk in and the doctor actually knew unequivocally what's wrong with you, guess how much better his treatment's gonna be of you, right? So for me, you know, I I think a lot of golf coaches struggle, and I think it's the vast majority of golf coaches struggle, but they don't struggle because they don't care. They don't struggle because they don't want to help you, they struggle because they don't know what I have to do with this person to help them play better golf this afternoon. Yeah. And when you can get the diagnosis part correct, now all of a sudden you can really help them because I've got a million ways to say these things, I've got a million analogies, uh, I've got a whole bunch of drills. I come with the some training aids that I know are kind of good for these certain situations. And it's like today, I mean, I had a very basic issue with somebody to where they their their point of application wasn't very good, their line of pressure was really not good, uh, and they couldn't load. And I mean, I literally spent probably out of the 90 minutes, I probably spent an hour and 10 minutes just working on those things. And I would try something that didn't work. Okay, let's try this way, that didn't work. Okay, let's try it this. Like, there are as much as it sounds like it's point and shoot, the diagnosis part is very point and shoot. But once again, like how we're gonna fix this for this person, and fix isn't the correct word, but how we're going to improve this for this person, that's gonna take some finagling, that's gonna take some work, that's gonna take some like reinforcement. And if we are just patient and stay focused on the real problem and don't get distracted by, oh, well, that didn't work. Let's try this. Oh, that didn't work. Let's no, we're gonna stay on this problem. Now, we might try some different ways of getting there, but we are going to spend our time fixing that. I'm not moving forward, I'm not passing go and collecting$200 until this gets sorted out.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:55

And it's easy to gain the credibility of the person you're coaching because you just get to turn the iPad back around and say, here's where you were two swings ago, here's where it just moved to. And they're like, Oh, okay, yeah, I did that. And or hey, I've I'm feeling this well great, but you haven't moved the needle yet. Right. So that I think you gain some credibility quickly, and that also I would imagine helps move the lesson along when you get the buy-in pretty early. Yeah. So now it's like, okay, tell me what you need me to do instead of this back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

Yeah. Well, let's hope this thing he says this time works. Yes. Yeah. Like that's it's a rough place to be as a coach. You don't want to be, you don't want to be just, you know, point and shooting all over the place. Like you you want to you want to be as minimally invasive as you can. And I think that's the key because people only have so much time, people have busy lives, they have kids, they have a job, they have different things. Like they want to play golf. Like, why do people take golf lessons? What they want to enjoy the time they have to play golf more. So I think it's important that, you know, and one of the things I enjoy the most is, and this happens a lot. I give somebody a lesson. Uh, it happened today, actually. It gave somebody a lesson. I think they went out and played nine holes. Um, or me, I'm sorry, this is the other day. This isn't yet, this isn't today. Uh, but I had given somebody a lesson. Uh, they had reached out to me that they went and played nine holes. Man, I did it great. I put like that to me is like, hey, we're we're doing the right things because they're able to own it, they're able to go out there, replicate it, and they're seeing positive results. Like that, that to me is a successful golf lesson. Is are you gonna be able to do, like, are you actually gonna be able to do this today? I think there's a lot of people, I think it's a sales tactic, but they're like, hey, here's the plan for the next three months. Yes, I have plans for development for people, but like, I'm not gonna take three months to solve an issue that can be solved today. Yeah, like we are going to identify the issue that we are gonna solve right here, right now, and we're gonna get you back out there, hopefully playing some of the best golf real life.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

And I think that um I have plans to go into so many other things. We we should hold off until next week. I feel like we've we've gone uh because there's a whole other short game element that I wanted to get into because you vastly undersell one, your ability around the greens, but two the knowledge base that you have uh of technique and and things to do, which a lot of it does fall right into the camp of what we were just talking about of how the swing is working and the kind of the torques and the forces that we're applying to get there. Um how we're really not trying to apply. Yeah, and really, yeah, you said it best the other night of like, hey, here's here's every here's the recipe to add ball speed in the full swing. We've got to essentially do the exact opposite to take every bit of ball speed away 100%.

Practical Recap Plus Short Game Tease

SPEAKER_01 1:17:11

And um like I just saw Parker had a had a cool post, he's doing a smash factor challenge. Oh, it was uh yeah, right. What's the lowest? Yeah, what's the like and if you're unfamiliar with Smash Factor, um it's essentially a multiplier. So, you know, if if you swing it at 20 miles an hour and you have a smash factor of 1.5 zero, the ball is traveling 30 miles an hour. That's kind of how the math works, right? So what they're essentially trying to do is they're trying to just to use the same example, they're swinging it at 30 miles an hour and seeing how slow they can get the golf ball to go. So they're trying to get, let's say, 0.5 smash. That would be unbelievable, right? If they could, if they could pull that off out. I haven't seen what kind of numbers they're putting up yet, but with Parker, God knows, because he is a magician. But let's say they put up a 0.5 smash factor and they swung at 30 miles an hour. Well, now the ball's leading at 15 miles an hour. So that thing is really kind of floaty and spinny and doing all those things that we like to see in the short game. But yeah, I mean, I I think short game, there's probably another episode. Uh pause it there.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

That'll be our that'll be our lead-in for next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

Uh and a recap with the full swing for people that hopefully they're gonna go out and kind of attempt some of this.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

Um we have a you know, that's the amazing thing. If you're watching this, you're already at our YouTube channel. Um, and if you're at our YouTube channel, we have a ton of videos to kind of talk about these things. Yeah. So, and and we're gonna be announcing something pretty cool here soon to where we really get in the weeds of this stuff. So if you're a coach and you're wanting to help your clients in a more effective manner, if you're wanting to learn how to use this technology, if you're wanting to learn, you know, how how do I get to this place, uh, we're gonna have something for you very soon. So I'm looking forward to announcing that as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:13

But that's uh and we're both really excited about what you've got coming. And um, you're right. If you're watching this or if you're listening, you can go to the YouTube, start to dive in just to a lot of you kind of going through all these clips of what we're talking about. But uh to recap and to finish us off, we want to get we've got point of application, line of pressure, gotta be the for the people that are gonna go out that don't have force plates, they're gonna go on the range tomorrow. A little closed is kind of feeling yeah, it was a square stance, yeah. Right, you know, square stance, you're feeling close, you're feeling close, and then obviously you're on the balls of your feet. You get that club moving in the backswing, and that backswing is done a lot faster than you think. Get moving again into a closed um so when you're I think the the way to kind of phrase that is you know, there's so much talking about getting left, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

And and if if we were set up to a golf ball and we have you know neutral orientation of the feet, and we're parallel to that target line, as they like to describe it. You know, I think so many people get to the top of their of their swing, wherever that may be for them, but they kind of get to the top and they think about trying to kind of slide, you know, parallel to that target line. And I think what Chuck's saying is feeling closed when you're you're moving left, you kind of want to feel like you're sliding towards the toe box of the left foot, towards the ball of the lead foot. A little towards the ball, and a little towards the ball. And that really scares the daylights out of people. But you'd be amazed because keep in mind, this is all happening well before the club is getting there. So we're gonna move that way. So guess what? We can move away. Yeah, and that's where we can really start getting that club head to kind of get around on that arc and kind of turn the corner and square up for us versus wanting to hang open, which is kind of the problem that we described with you earlier today.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:28

Yeah, and that when you when you start in towards that ball and you're shifting towards the target, but in that closed manner that that club is still traveling behind you, you know, still traveling, start starting to come out, and you're throwing the head, you're throwing that the opposite direction of the target, the opposite direction of the target, you're gonna feel that lead leg go ahead and engage. Yeah, there's your brake. So everything's getting locked in so that as that club goes out and uh and it gets thrown away from the target, man, here comes that here comes that upper body that's that's turning because that big gear, it's locked in, and now these the knee gear and the hips, they're all getting locked in. So the only thing allowed, here we come with this upper body, with this upper body. Um, and then that club is boom hitting at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:21

Uh, I think speed's going up, ball speed's going up. Hopefully, face stability is going or getting more consistent, and yeah, a lot of good things are happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

Yeah, so this is uh this has been a fun episode. We're we're finally in person to do a pod. And look at the setting. Yeah, setting's great. Uh, we got Michael on the golf course. Uh first round of the year in the boats. First one posted I posted pretty well with the wedge, too. Oh, yeah. He was like, I hate this putter. We're going wedge the rest of the way. The caddies loved it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:53

And Wayno cannot believe how well I rolled it. Yes, with the wedge. He was very he's like, Well, you got a belly it. I'm like, no, no, it's not what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

Um but make sure you post that, post your score. Yeah. Um, but we will be back next week. We'll get Michael talking some short game and technique. Uh, I think this has been great. Michael, send us out.

Subscribe Follow Virtual Coaching Options

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Yeah. So, you know, once again, I can't thank Henrik, Skylar, the honor staff, made me feel right at home. Food's been amazing, staff's been amazing, facilities are amazing. They've put me up in style, rolled out the red carpet. None of it would have happened. They wouldn't even know who I was if it wasn't for this guy. So I also owe Mr. Hudson a uh a big thank you uh for being such a tremendous host. And he's kind of put his life on hold, entertained me this week, which has been very kind and very thoughtful of him. But yeah, it's been a great episode. We hope you enjoyed it. As I mentioned earlier, if you're watching this, you're already on our YouTube channel. Thank you very much. Hopefully, you're a subscriber. If not, go ahead and subscribe to this, please. That really helps us out tremendously, allows us to keep creating this content for you. If you're interested and following along on social media, you can find me at the forceplate guy. You can find him at Hubload423, and you can also find Measured Golf at Measured Golf on Instagram as well, where we typically post the clips from the podcast uh and are going to hopefully be announcing something very exciting very soon. If you cannot remember any of that, or you blacked out while I said that, you are welcome to always go to our website at measuredgolf.com. You can send me an email. You can sign up for a golf lesson, whether virtually or in person. I think that's something that Chuck keeps reminding me that I don't talk about enough. If you are interested in working with me, I do a lot of work virtually and I feel pretty comfortable saying this because I've had so much success with it. I really like the virtual coaching. I would say I am leaning more that way. I want to be able to service more people from a greater area. I really like the virtual coaching. I would definitely say Chuck has been a virtual client of mine by and large.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:03

We've only been in person two times.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:07

So of working now six months or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:10

Right. And it it's a lot different, I think. Um, most of my virtual clients definitely feel like this is not what other people are doing virtually. Uh, it's an hour session. It's not just me sending you videos and you sending me videos. Uh, it's a lot more interactive. We spend a lot of time together, we get to know each other, and we figure out what we're gonna do to help you play better golf. So if you do have interest in working with me, uh please reach out once again at measuregolf.com and we can set up the initial swing analysis and kind of get things moving forward in a positive direction this golf season. So once again, please make sure, reach out, uh, share content ideas with us so we can steal them and pass them off as our own. Uh, if you have questions that you want to ask, uh, you can reach out to me or Chuck uh or through the website as well. But please engage, please let us know what you want to hear. We're eventually going to run out of things to talk about, maybe. Uh, but until then, please make sure you let us know what you want to hear so that we don't. So until next time, keep grinding.