Are You Practicing Skills Or Protecting Ego

Your short game doesn’t fall apart because you “need more touch.” It falls apart because the lie changes, friction changes, and most golfers keep trying to hit the same shot anyway. We bring back the energy from a great golf trip, talk through the Masters hangover, and then get brutally practical about what actually helps you score when conditions are real and time is limited.

We start with the stuff that quietly shapes your whole season: public golf pace, why walking often speeds things up, and the small habits that keep rounds moving. From there, we zoom out into why so many players avoid golf lessons, even though they want to improve. Bad diagnosis creates bad trust, and the old “get worse before you get better” sales pitch doesn’t hold up when you’re paying for results. We also explain why measurement tools like force plates can reveal the invisible parts of the swing that guessing can’t.

The main course is short game. We break down how dew and wet grass reduce friction, why that makes high-loft shots unpredictable, and when a bump with less loft is the percentage play. We cover low point control, arc depth, using bounce, creating a path that works left to manage speed, and the right-hand feels that keep the face from shutting and producing those hot jumpers. We finish with high, soft pitch ideas, bunker strategy for both short-sided and longer shots, and simple drills you can take straight to the practice area.

If you want more clarity around the greens and better decisions under pressure, subscribe, share this with a golf buddy who lives in the bunker, and leave us a review. What short game shot costs you the most strokes right now?

Website : measuredgolf.com 

Instagram : @measuredgolf | @theforceplateguy 

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Transcript

Masters Hangover And Golf Fever

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listener, sit down and join Chuck and myself as we discuss all things golf. And it's a sad state of affairs. We are back to being separated. Life partners no more. There was a terrible fight, uh, and we had to be separated. But had an amazing time down in Chattanooga with Chuck last week. Uh, have seen an amazing amount of feedback on the last podcast. Sounds like you guys were really into some of the things we got into, and I know Chuck is wanting to continue that conversation. Um, but it feels it feels like we're we're like here in Michigan, it was quite a bit different down in Tennessee. It was quite warm and the grass is green and everything. But driving in this morning to do this podcast, uh, the grass is green, the weather is warm, and even this curmudgeon has a little bit of golf fever. So I think we are officially getting into golf season, even though I think there's a little bit of masters let down. I always feel this way this time of year. It's like we have the masters, then it feels like there's a little bit of a weight to the next major. But man, I I I hate the Masters Hangover because that's just like the high water mark for me uh in the spring golf season. So with that being said, uh, how are you dealing with the Masters Hangover truck? Are you doing all right hanging in there?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Um yeah, I it it is always sad when the Masters is over. I I feel that way too. I've been more upset that we're not together doing the pod. I think I think uh the feedback we got from last week's pod, the content and people enjoyed us being in the same room. I enjoyed being in the same room. And it's always um I always get the worst let down when a golf trip is over. There's nothing like a golf trip finishing and the endorphins are just rock bottom, and that's where I felt like I was when you were leaving town. We had such an awesome week. It was a good week. Golf camp was over. Um it was sad, and uh, so I'm I'm dealing with that this week. You've got your your honors uh row pad on, and uh what a great shop.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

What a great shop. This guy's killing. I I could have done some damage there. Luckily, I was restrained, but uh yeah, what a great shop.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

What warms my heart is that you telling me before we started this pod that you have the bug, you've got the itch back, you're excited about golf again. If there's nothing else that I got out of this pod, then getting you excited about golf, I have done my job.

Public Golf Pace And Etiquette

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Well, Aram, our full-time strength and conditioning guy here at Measured Golf at Ann Arbor, um, he was talking to some of the clients that we share, and they were like, What's going on with Mike? Like, I thought he wasn't playing golf this year. And Aram was telling them, he's like, Yeah, we go through this every year. Like, Mike, Mike hits a point in the winter to where he's just had enough and you know, it has just thrown in the towel, but then he gets to the masters, goes on one of these trips to where he really enjoys it, uh, and he's back. So we'll we'll see. Hopefully, we can keep the juices flowing uh long enough to actually play some golf this year. It's just difficult, I think. I mean, I probably the roles are a little reversed here, but you know, you're a member at a couple places that are pretty freaking cool. Uh, so you get to go out there and play golf at these amazing venues, and you have amazing practice facilities available to you. But for me, uh, the public golf scene where I'm at isn't great, and there's not really a lot of opportunities to go out and practice outside. There's not a really good short game area that's public close to me. And you know, it's just it's kind of hard to get excited about going and playing public golf. And there's some like good tracks uh that are fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Style round does not get me excited, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

But it's it's slow. You're paired up with people who maybe aren't very good, which is fine. Like, I really don't mind playing with golfers who aren't great. Like, that's that's never the sticking point for me. It's it's in them not fixing ball marks, uh not raking bunkers, not being in position, not ready to play. It's those things that really kind of irk me a bit. So, you know, I'm just in the habit, and I think maybe you probably saw it a little bit when we played on Wednesday, uh, because obviously you hit it a little bit farther than me. So like I would hit my shot and I would get out in front of you and Wayne. Like that that's normal. Like that's you move, you keep moving. You don't just sit around and watch other people hit shots. And that that's what kills me on. And not only that, but I walk and if you're a if you're at a public golf course walking, carrying your bag, like you get the craziest looks from people. They think you've lost your marbles. Yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, it's just it's hard to get excited about going out and playing public golf, at least where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, it does make it difficult when you're not excited about the potential length of the round and who you might be paired with, and then the fact that you can't go and just practice at a nice have a nice facility to go practice at. And and for anyone listening, you brought up a great point. Hit your shot and keep moving.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

So they can't because they're they're in a golf cart together. That there's nothing that's killed pace of play more than golf carts, yeah. Like there, there's people now that have that have done some math on this and figured that, but it's true. Like, people think it's it's so funny to kind of like keep going with that thought, but it's so funny how I'll play golf at a public venue with people who maybe haven't been playing golf that long or whatever the case, but I'll start walking and they'll like look at me like I'm gonna be the one that's slow, yeah. And like four or five holes into it, they're like, Man, I can't believe you're keeping up, and and like, dude, the the cart is what's slowing us down. Like, it's just a drink holder on wheels for people, and it serves as a tether. It's it's definitely what slows golf down. Like, that's one by the way. I did have a question. Does the honors have golf carts? They do have horse on the golf course? They've got them. You can take a golf cart if you choose to take a golf cart. Correct. I didn't I don't remember seeing anybody really exercising that option. It's just not, yeah. I mean, you don't have Do you shame them when they do? Please tell me that the membership does.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

No. But you it's it is a rarity that you see it. Um I mean, as you know, it's not the hardest walk. It's a it's a big walk. It's a big walk, but it's not a hard walk.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

No. Um But I love that. Like that that was one of my that was one of my big, and I I know it's it's I don't want to discredit the honors in any way. Like the golf course is amazing, the shape, the presentation, all amazing. But like my weird weirdness is one of my favorite things about being there was seeing so many people walking. Like, I think golf, it's supposed to be like a physical activity. You should walk. And I I don't remember seeing anybody on a golf cart while we were out there, and maybe there was, and I just looked past it, but I don't remember seeing it.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

It's it's rare that you you see somebody. Um maybe the older membership will be in a cart, uh, especially when the weather gets gets pretty warm. Um but the um I think people could take a page out of your playbook, and I tell people if they've when they come play golf with me, like, hey, when you get your number, when you get your club and you hit in and you're handing it back to the caddy, if you've missed the green or you're on the like grab your wedge, grab your go ahead and grab it, yeah, you start walking. And I I mean, we you and I and Wayne played fairly quickly, but all of us kind of like, hey, let me have the next club, and then you're constantly just moving and you don't have to- It's crazy how many golfers think you're being rude with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Like they're like, you know, like my my stepdad's a perfect example. I'll get out 20, 30 yards ahead of him, and and he will actually say something to me about it and be like, hey, like that makes me uncomfortable. And it's like, dude, I I'm not in the line of fire. Like, you're you're a good enough golfer to where I'm not worried about taking shrapnel. Um, but yeah, it's it's funny how golf they just don't they want to sit there and watch each other. It's weird, they want to sit there and watch each other hit shots, but then they never know where you hit it to. It's very strange.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, yeah. Um, I think that's a good good tidbit of like just keep moving and uh you know, like don't walk in their line, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Like I'm and I'm not talking about the putting green, like if somebody's playing into a green, obviously don't walk down the fairway on their line of play where they're gonna hit it over your head, you know, get to the get to the edges of the fairway or what have you. But yeah, just keep moving, man. And and it's so much more fun that way when you can keep moving. And I think I told you, you know, obviously I've never been uh never played the honors prior to us playing it, but you know, the fun thing that I like is when you're really when you're really present, when you're really engaged, when you're moving, um when you're doing those things. I'm standing on the back of 18 green. I think I told you this. I'm standing on the back of 18 green trying to figure out where the next T buck. I didn't I didn't even realize it was 18. Yeah. Um and that's when it's that's when you've had a good round of golf, right? Is when you're looking for more versus counting down the holes to when you can get off the golf course.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah. Yeah, you it was funny to hear you say, Oh, that that was it. That was the last one.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah, okay. That's a bummer.

What Listeners Want From Us

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Uh yeah, it is a bummer. When you play a good place, any any good place, and and you get to that last couple holes, and it's like, dang, it's over. Yeah. Um those first few always go so fast. Um so last week we and we had some uh really want to shout out the listeners. I received I've been receiving feedback. I received the most feedback we've had.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

I would say I had I did too, actually.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

And the people that uh that's our we have a we have a little niche community, and the the community clearly responded to what we were talking about and and enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

And I love that we got that feedback that that we are giving the people what they're here to uh I do love how you I mean we talk, I guess we should out our our bromance, but we we talk on a daily basis. Um and it is funny to me how every day you ask me like how's the podcast doing? What are the stats? Like it it is I'm I'm I'm happy that and it's not you know you're not chasing clout, I'm not chasing clout with this. Uh, but I I think the reason we're interested in that is are we are we getting what the people want to hear to them?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

And I know we've talked a lot about this, but you know, there's never in any period in human history been more golf content readily available. And the problem is, and and we've talked about this too, the problem is is just so much of it's repackaged. Um, and I've told you that, you know, I probably get 20 DMs uh as soon as I put something new up. So if I do a content piece for YouTube or I make a make something and put it on social media, you know, people just start sending me different versions of the same thing where these content creators pick things up and and just redo them uh and and put it out, put it out there as their own. But it's just there's so much of this this repackaged information, this uh reiteration of the same things. And I think that's really by and large what's what's held golf back from a performance standpoint and people getting better. So if we're able to, you know, maybe move the conversation forward, if we're maybe able to put something in a way to where it hasn't been said that way before or it hits people differently, you know, I I that's why I want to do this. I want to get you know good information out to people. I want to be, I want us to be a conduit of information for people. And I I do think that there's a lot of people like you uh and like a lot of our listeners who are seeking that out and they're just having a difficult time finding it. So uh I'm always excited when when people do reach out. I'm excited when people say that you know they've taken some of the stuff we've talked about and applied it and gotten better. And that's that's why we do this, right? Like it's not about like we're not trust me, we make zero dollars doing this. Chuck's very nice to donate his time, I donate my time. This this isn't for financial gain, this isn't for um like chasing clout for a lack of better terminology. It's it's kind of a little passion project for us, I guess, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah, uh to your um point there about the clout. You and I just talked about it yesterday. I was asking how how the pod was doing, and we were talking about it yesterday that we're we're not a this podcast is not for the mainstream everyday golfer. Like we we don't want to be mainstream. That's not us, that's not our our focus, that's not our listeners, and um but that's where we want to be. We want to be in this spot of helping that group of degenerates like myself that are information seekers. And um, so I'm I'm always wanting to make sure that we're giving the best content we can give to to that group and that they want to hear. And it was awesome last week hearing from all these people. I heard from a a guy, um he's a friend of mine that does not take golf lessons. Like decent player, loves golf, does not take golf lessons. Sent me a screenshot of our recent pod, and he was like, I think this could be good for me. Like talking about force plates and how that impacts your swing. Like he was a good athlete growing up, and um but it was that like oh man, that was really cool to hear.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

It resonated with him, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, it resonated, and it wasn't like oh, it wasn't like this. Like let's just call it what it is.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

You know, maybe maybe this is getting out over my skis a little bit, and I'm gonna do my best to not do that. But you know, the the statistic is that 17% of people that play golf take a golf lesson. And I think that is a very skewed stat because my guess is is that of 100% of the golf lessons that get taken, it's an even smaller percentage than 17 that are taking all the lessons. Like I think people that take lessons take a lot of lessons, and then the people that you know look like they kind of dabble taking, they don't take any lessons. Like they do the online thing or or what have you, which is great, by the way. I've had a lot of success with that and I enjoy doing it. But the fact remains that 17% of people that play golf take a golf lesson. Well, I feel strongly that if we surveyed everybody playing golf, we would find out that you know, probably 90% uh would actually like to get better, but they don't take golf lessons. And I think the reason people don't take golf lessons is most of the time, uh, if not you know, the vast majority of the time, golf lessons don't help people play better golf. They don't. Um, most people that take a golf lesson, you know, are convinced that they have to get worse before they get better, and that's like the ultimate sales job, right? Like, I would like to find the first person who said that to somebody and just beat them, like just absolutely lay the wood to them because that's nonsense. And if you're a talent, like how many times have I given, and I'll use you as the example, but I give you lessons all the time, and you go out and play golf that afternoon and play fine or even a little better, and same with most of the people I worked with while I was down at at the facility in Tennessee. I mean, it it's if you are, and this kind of goes back to the last episode we had, but if you're diagnosing correctly and you're understanding what their issue is, and you help them with that thing, now they're not going to do it every time, but at least now they're gonna be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel and they're gonna hit some better shots or maybe some shots they've never hit before on the golf course, and like, oh wow, okay, cool. We're moving the needle, we're moving the right direction. But for so many people, they go take a golf lesson, and the person kind of just throws things against the wall, hoping something sticks. And because they're not dealing with that core issue, that's not helping that person play better golf. So I I think, you know, for a lot of people that are out there that are in our niche, you know, they've been burnt, you know, and it's it takes them, you know, you got to build that trust back up with them before they're really willing to just be like, okay, Mike, like I've got, and that's where it gets beautiful. It's it's like with me and you, just to use you as the example again, I can say crazy things to you, and you're like, I'm in. Like I've got a track record with this guy helping me play better golf. I know it works. This doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me right now. But because we have that trust and we have that rapport with one another, you're willing to go on that ride with me. And just so many new clients that I work with, I have to build that first. And I've told you this before, but you have to build that so that you can do your job as a coach because likely they've been burnt before and they're very skeptical about really making big swings at the fence because they don't want to lose everything they have.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah, and it's that it's that light at the end of the tunnel that you were talking about that when you show someone like uh you know, great example. Um Ken Noonan, new friend of the show.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Love Ken. He uh one of my favorites I worked with down there. That guy is great. He like that guy's inspiring, man. Like you hear his story, he gave me like a 10-minute version of his life story. Uh, and I could have listened, I wish I could have paid him just to listen to him for 90 minutes tell me about his life. But like the guy's I I don't know how old he is. Is he 70-ish?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, I think he's 71 or two.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah, he's like 70-ish, and man, that guy is just like, I'm gonna get better. I'm gonna keep working at this. I'm gonna get better. And it's like it's inspiring. Like, how do you not look at that and go, Man, I hope I am still as gun ho at that age. Like, I the guy's just committed to getting better, and I I think it's awesome. Like, I really I enjoy that part to people. Like, I I've got some 90-year-old clients, man, that are still grinding away at this thing, and I just think that's I think that's the best thing ever. Like, I think that's what keeps you young and keeps you in the game.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Well, he's uh an accomplished player already. And not to rehash everything we talked about in last week's episode, um, but he's he can see he can see that light at the end of the tunnel with like the one lesson he got from you and he's now already taken one or two more from you since then. Um but there wasn't a oh, you're gonna get a lot worse, and then you're gonna get better. I mean, he he could see the light, he could see where you were going, and he's taken enough lessons over his lifetime to to see that this was different, and this was there was something there that he quickly grasped too, and he like myself and like so many others that work with you, it it was just this insatiable, like, oh my gosh, I need that, that's it, I need more of that.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Um and uh I'm leeried to say this this way, but it is the truth, and you know, my my comeback, if you will, for people that are like, Oh, I would take a golf lesson, but it's golf season or you know, I don't want to mess things up. It's like I always kind of last resort, my Hail Mary, is I tell people this you know, here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, uh where I live and work and where my facility is, uh, I'm the most expensive guy in the area by quite a by quite a large margin. Um I've done more to prop up other coaches' prices than anybody else has done for them. So like I am the most expensive guy in my area. The other thing that's super funny is that I am a literal standalone facility. Um I'm not at a golf course, I'm not at a driving range, I'm not. At a golf shop, I'm literally wedged between a dispensary and a brewery. Like I have zero natural foot traffic at all. I also don't have a marketing budget. Like this is us doing marketing. Uh, I have no marketing budget, so I'm not spending money on like Google ads or Facebook ads or any of that stuff. So I'm the most expensive guy at a standalone facility, and nobody is going to come back if I haven't instantaneously helped them get better at golf. Like there, there's no like I'm out of business very quickly if you get worse before you get better. Because people aren't going to keep doing this to themselves at this price point. So for me, it's you know, you've got to A be able to verbalize and explain what we need them to do in a way that resonates and makes sense to them. And then two, you've got to be able to get them to do it within an hour. Like you've got to at least get them to do it a couple of times, like, oh, that was different, or oh, that felt different, or oh, look at the speed go up, or whatever the case is. But you've got to be able to do that within an hour. And I I can use my business, my facility here as a as a case study for this. But once again, if if I wasn't able to do the things we talk about, this this would not work. I would be out of business years ago. So it's I I get it, I know that that's the the common thought process out there, but it just isn't true. It's unfortunately, you've been with people who didn't diagnose well or didn't have the right drills to give you, or didn't have the right way to say the thing that you needed to do. But once again, you you can't, and I hate to say this because it makes me sound like I'm just totally selling force plates, but I don't know how you diagnose well without the force plates because so much of the equation is invisible. You you can't see forces, you can't see torques, you can't see pressure. Don't get me wrong, like I've done this for a long time, and I can kind of look at something and go, well, my guess is that this is happening, but that is still an educated guess, it's not a measurement. So at the end of the day, you've got to be able to understand like what they're doing, and then you can kind of understand why the club's doing what it's doing and why the body's doing what it's doing. It isn't random, there's a reason behind that. So you've got to be able to really get to the core issue with people, otherwise, you know, then you are kind of throwing things against the wall hoping something sticks, and and you know, you can have some success with that, but it's definitely not the most efficient path.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Right. Well, if anyone wants more on that, go listen to last week's episode. We we mega dive into that.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Um that was the first podcast we've done last week to where we both like I hit stop record and we both kind of looked at each other and went, That was that was pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

That was good, and knew we knew immediately that was that one was gonna resonate with our crowd, our group. Um, and it did. It was fun.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

And um I have gotten a lot of comments about how you look at me when I'm talking. I don't know where else to look. They're like, he just looks at you like in a what and I'm like, yeah, you know. I mean, but we I and I hope people get this. Like, we really enjoy doing this together. You know, I I think that there was some hesitancy on your behalf to kind of jump in here, but um, I think you've been great. I think you've been a great addition. A lot of the feedback I get is about having you and how much it's helped the podcast. So um, yeah, man, I I enjoy it and I, you know, I enjoy the opportunities that you've created for me, and I really I really enjoy doing this with you. I'm glad that you've uh that you've dove in.

Wet Lies And Smarter Club Choice

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Well, that's humbling to hear. I I did not want to screw up the good thing you had going. Um happy that it's been working out. I I do love doing it, it's been a blast. Um but let's I teased it twice last week. Let's jump in. You so you you've even said to me before when we've talked about short game and you've alluded to that yeah, I like doing short game, like that it's kind of maybe my thing. I gone to golf course, and then I got to see it in person. Um we're out on the on the back practice area. I mean, we probably spent three hours back there uh of the four hours we spent. And I could see you light up getting a wedge in your hand, you were showing off different shots, and then we got into the the teaching of it, and then on the golf course the next day, you you had some awesome shots, and then us kind of talking about lies and um you know what was the what was the dew on the grass going to do to the friction on the club on certain shots.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

So I um I did feel like that was like a big moment with us out there. Uh surprisingly enough, I remember. Uh but uh you had a pretty sh, you know, pretty straightforward chip shot. Pen was maybe a little bit tucked if I remember correctly. Uh nothing crazy. And you had you, I think originally you had pulled the the 58.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

So I was going, yeah, it was it wasn't it was probably like eight yards or so, and I'm just off the green, but like in the rough, and there was a slight like getting onto the green was a slight downhill that I didn't want it to run away, and so I grabbed the 60, and my thought was to give it a little height, and um and you were like, No, no, no, we can go less and bump this because we know that spin is coming off with the wet interaction at that ball. So keep going, but but that's that was the informate. That was a a really fun informational little 30 seconds of like, hey, you can still bump this if you'd like, and it's probably the percentage play because even more spin is coming off than normal, so it's going to get through this like little bit of rough, little bit of fringe way better than it would normally.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah, and I I think we kind of had that conversation. Uh, you you grabbed the 60, and I was pretty quick to be like, uh-uh. But you know, it and the problem is is that you know, if you're gonna hit that 60 there, and the lie wasn't that great. That was the other piece. Yeah, it wasn't a great, it was sitting down a little bit uh in the wet dew. And you know, the problem is if you go to hit that 60 and put a little height on it, under normal dry conditions, you know, there's some friction there and the ball goes up. The the issue I think that you were gonna have with that shot is that you were gonna have to make a little bigger swing at it to try to get it up in the air and get it to land where you want it to, and and all that fun stuff. But I know that there's going to be a reduction in in friction because of the do, and I know that that ball is gonna slide off a little bit and it's not gonna launch quite right. It's gonna come out no matter what you did, that shot was gonna come out lower than you thought it should, um, which is where we got to the hey, I know there's a little bit of rough between us and and the green, but I still think bump is the play. So I took the 60 uh kind of from you, and I think you, if I remember correctly, you kind of grabbed the sand wedge, and I was like, no, no, like let's get the gap wedge in your hand. So it went down to the 50. And you were it was kind of fun, and I I kind of knew that I was toying with you, not toying with you, but I knew that I was pushing you uh into that uncomfortability because I put that fit and you were like, Whoa, like this is this is way too much club for this. And I was like, no, no, no, like we don't want this thing spinning a whole lot, like we were trying to bump it. We want it to hit that rough kind of hard and jump through it, and then you know, let the the surface friction kind of kill it out as it goes towards the pen. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I I think I think that's the thing, right? Is it kind of goes back to my the conversation we've had a million times. Golfers go to the driving range and practice a shot, and they're like, Oh, I want to draw, I want to draw my glove, or I want to draw my irons, or I want to fade my irons. And then they go out to the golf course and they're like, I'm gonna draw every iron, I'm gonna fade every iron. Well, as I've said, you know, I'm trying to create this neutral delivery to where you can play off different lies and start letting the lie actually pick the shot shape for you. It's very, very common that I see golfers do the exact same kind of thinking when it gets to these chips and pitches around the green, and they kind of forget that the lie is important here. And the lie really gets important when it's wet, because when it gets wet, now we don't have the same amount of friction and we're not going to be able to create the spin. And that's where I think people get in a lot of trouble, is they expect it to do a certain thing. They actually make the swing and execute what they're trying to do, but then it comes off totally different because of the the moisture. So I think it's really important that people listening to this when they're when they're thinking about chipping and pitching the ball, you know, you've got to you've got to factor the lie into it quite a bit because that is really going to affect these shots, especially when you know it's an eight-yard shot or something like that. That lie is really going to come into play.

Low Point Control And Arc Depth

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah. And the shorter you've talked about it uh, I think on here, or maybe it was just with me, of how much more time we need to spend with the short uh pitches and chips around greens. Can you fly this ball four yards? And you know, can you bump this ball five yards? I mean, it we've I think we've talked about that. Um, if you haven't talked about it on here, and and you do that we were practicing and you had the bucket of balls and you were just kind of walking around the green, just like tossing balls out. And it was a lot of getting to the next ball, and okay, tell me what you think. And then if I was wrong, you'd correct and say, No, I think you need this, and here's how so it it it was. I mean, we probably spent 30 or 40 minutes just you kind of tossing balls out and saying, Okay, you gotta hit this one, okay, you gotta do this. Um but give the uh let's jump into the the sauce of it. Um we I've had I would have said in the past I was a a decent short game player, and then I kind of lost like my low point control and been searching for a while of like how do I get that back? And because when you lose a sense of where low point is, at least for me, it's a um you don't hit anything confidently and and there's you can't you might luck into hitting one close, um but there would be times I'm like, man, I don't even know how hard I'm gonna swing at this because I don't know where I'm gonna bottom out. Um and that's a not fun feeling, especially when you are under the gun and um in a tournament or in in some pressure situation. Um why don't you uh I don't know if you want to walk us through kind of what what your thoughts were on how to kind of get things set up and then and then the thought on the backswing and then the thought on the downswing.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

I mean, I think it starts conceptually, right? And you know, giving Joe Mayo credit where credit is due, you know, he's beat this to death, and and he's correct. You're if you're hitting the ground before the ball, and look, I showed you multiple times with a good lie and and kind of the fairway lie, you can hit the ground, assuming we're delivering it well, you can hit the ground before the ball and still hit a pretty nice golf shot. Uh, I actually shared a story uh with you kind of chipping one-handed, and I guarantee you that that club on that shot, which was a very nice shot. I mean, you hit it to three inches, like I guarantee you that contact with the ground probably happened right at the ball, if not slightly before. Like, I almost guarantee it.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Can you explain why that is that on a good lie you can hit the ground first? Talk about arc depth there for a second, like why that's possible.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Yeah, if the arc arc depth is shallow and you are and look, this is where I I jumped the script a little bit from Mr. Mayo. The bounce does matter, like the grind of the bottom of that club and the bounce do matter. But if if you're relatively shallow with your arc depth, you can hit the ground before the ball and you're gonna be okay. The the reason that most people can't do that is because they're either way too shallow or way too steep. So conceptually, where I think golfers really struggle with their short game is they stick that thing in the ground, uh, you know, prior to the ball. They chunk it, they lay sod, they they blade it, they whatever. But they they have a low point happening prior to the ball, and the first thing they say is, well, it was too steep.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

That that's that being the lowest point of the arc.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Generally, where we hit the ground is not the lowest point of the arc, it happens after. So it goes in, like kind of kind of makes a a U going into the ground, which means if you've chunked it, you've had that U, the bottom of it, well before the ball. Correct. Yeah, and you're too shallow, you're not too steep, like literally, you're coming in so shallow that you're catching the ground well before the ball. That's too shallow, and like people it blows their mind. But once again, I think so many people are trying to keep the face open to have some lofty use at the bottom that they're just laying that club down way too much and getting way too shallow. You know, the the thing that we had to do with you, which was way easier to do in person than virtually, is I'm telling you to chop the legs out from underneath it and swing the thing left of left. And you're like, oh my god, that's so steep. That's you know, like it it has all those markings of this is working the way I'm afraid of working, but then you just I thought I was gonna pull it, like it looked felt like I was gonna hit it five yards left of my target to a 10-yard shot, right? And you I finally kind of get you to do that, and you just start hitting these beautiful chips and pitches, and you're like, what the hell? But you know, A, we got to get steeper. I agree with Joe. With the vast majority of golfers when it comes to chipping and pitching, I would tell them that they probably need to be steeper. And then the second part to this is we've got to slow the ball down. So I think when a lot of people get steep, because they don't understand what the shallower needs to be, they don't create any thoracic rotation. They don't get their chest open soon enough to where we can keep some loft on this thing. A lot of people get very static with the upper body and they they start trying to get the club working more out to end. And that's a recipe for disaster because now I've taken the bounce completely out of play. Now I'm leading with the leading edge, and I'm going to have some serious problems. So for me, explain why that causes the leading edge to engage. So anytime I get the club kind of circling horizontally the hands, all of a sudden, like we have to lean it. And look, I'm not saying I don't want some shaffling, I like some shafling, like that's fine. But we get this excessive shafling to get low point to happen in front of the ball, and now we're basically turning that face shut with the wedge, and now we're gonna hit them left. Now we're gonna start seeing a lot of those problems that you were talking about where we feel like we're gonna end up five yards left on a 10-yard shot. But when we get that leading edge kind of coming in early and the bounce isn't exposed, now all of a sudden we just start digging trenches. And off that Bermuda, uh, that we kind of saw that overseated stuff that we saw uh back in January, like that's a dangerous game. We we got to get this thing to slide versus wanting to dig because it will dig on that. So, you know, the big thing that I like to kind of think about is A, let's figure out a way to where we can create some thoracic rotation and we can keep some loft on the face, and we can get this path moving left. And the reason I talk about the path moving left a lot is because if we think about full shots, if we think about like hitting seven irons, if you were to make a swing with your seven iron, have the path five, six, seven degrees left, and the face at zero, or you know, you know, basically having the face wide open relative to the path, you hit that shot with an iron, and you're like, My God, I can't compress the golf ball. My god, that feels weak. Ball speed coming off, yeah, and it goes like nowhere, right? So that's kind of the recipe to steal from Parker. That's kind of the recipe that we're looking for when it comes to short game. I'm trying to get the ball speed out of here. I'm I'm not trying to hit this thing hard, I'm not trying to hit it fast. I like seeing, and and that's where I really like that shot that you hit uh with the one arm that I shared. You know, that's where we start seeing these kind of soft, floaty shots is we get the path moving left, we get the face open. Now all of a sudden you're not going to hit nearly as many of those hot shots to where you feel like you made the swing you're supposed to make, but delivered not enough loft, and now that thing just jumps off the face and it goes, you know, eight, ten feet by the hole.

Path Left And Wedge Release

SPEAKER_00 41:27

So the shallower being and I and I think the other piece that sets it up is getting the back swing in a spot to deliver the shallower. I think with us it was this uh, you know, you you hear so much of people weak in the right hand, weaken the right hand. We and you are like, no, I I kind of want that right hand under the grip, um and and quote, stronger with the right hand, so that when you go to take it back, you're keeping this kind of palm up with your right hand, and the face is a little open from there, and that there was a how I would describe it as like a bit of a bicep curl and turn, like kind of picking the club up with the bicep. That club gets up, and then there's a little turn to it. So take us from there, that shallower being we're going left and then just kind of drop, letting the club just kind of drop.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yeah. So I was talking to Parker about this actually the other night. Um once you get past uh 55 degrees of dynamic loft, like there's diminishing returns on spin. Okay, so go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Run us, run us through the for anyone listening, run us through the dynamic loft piece of that.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Dynamic loft is basically the amount of loft you deliver minus the uh attack angle. So the the as you see Mayo talk about he's got his he's talking spin loft. I'm just talking dynamic loft. Um right. So when and you could you can kind of you can kind of talk about it two ways. You could talk about dynamic loft, you could talk about spin. Actually, I think I'm I think I think you caught me there. I think I'm talking about the wrong thing. When we're talking about spin loft, right, dynamic loft and attack angle, the mayo thing for sure. Thank you for the correction because I'm a little tired still. But when we're talking spin loft and we talk about, and and Joe's presented this at Open Forum before with Frederick Truxen from Trackman, once the spin loft goes above 55 degrees, you you like there's it's the there's slippage, the ball starts rolling up the face instead of catching and spinning. So if I understand that, you know, the most and look, spin loft, I get can be a little bit. Bit complicated for people. But if I start thinking about, hey, the most loft I can use is 55 degrees. Like, let's just keep this conversational simpler for the listener.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Which means the amount of loft on the face when it makes contact.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah. Right. Like, and and I I get it, people are going to beat us up and go, oh, that's not how whatever. I don't care. But if we kind of understand that 55 is like the max out in terms of producing spin, then we have to recognize that a lot of people are chipping and pitching with more than 55 to start. Okay. That's with a square face. And as somebody who teaches a fair amount of short game, the number one thing that I've said to you a bunch and I've said to other people a bunch is hey, let's chip this, let's pitch this with a square face. Yep. Right now, here's where it gets kind of interesting. Why, and this is what I was talking to Parker about. Why do people start with the face wide open? Well, the reason that people start with the face wide open is because the club head is rotating about the shaft when I chip and pitch. There is some rotation there. Now, if I'm trying to keep a 54-degree wedge, and I know this isn't correct, so whatever. And I know that like I only got one more degree and I lay that thing wide open, I want that thing to rotate a bit more. Well, it's going to be a lot easier to rotate the club from a stronger grip position, right hand more underneath the grip, than it is on top. And then the problem is that, you know, and this is this goes back to Mike Adams when I was doing a lot of bioswing dynamic stuff with them. But I kind of showed up to that community with a really strong right-hand grip. And they were like, you know, they base, I think Terry actually, Terry Rolls called it. He's like, I bet you struggle with a left miss on the golf course, but you're an excellent chipper and pitcher. And I was like, bingo. And he's like, Yeah, traditionally, what we've seen is that when we measure out grip types, you know, on top, uh, underneath, cover, all these things, when we measure out grips, generally our guys with a stronger grip chip and pitch the ball better. So for you, you play with a pretty neutral grip. And that's why for you, I was like, hey, let's get that thing a little bit more underneath. Let's feel like we kind of get that palm to the sky a little bit more in the back swing. And then most importantly, when you finish, I want that palm back to the sky. We're trying to work the club, we're trying to spin the shaft. That's not a new concept that's been around for a long time, but we're trying to spin it under. I'm not trying to spin it over. Yeah, and that's where I think so many golfers really struggle with this, is that they're just dumping out all the or they're taking away all their loft and hitting a lot of those hot shots. But to kind of answer your question, you know, as we've talked about at nauseum here lately, it feels like, you know, when I think of how do I move from the top of my swing, whether it's a full swing, actually, let's start with a full swing. We go pelvis, uh, torso, arm club. Like that's the kinematic sequence that we want to see for efficiencies. Now, interestingly enough, if I want to be efficient, hit the ball hard, that's a great strategy. But if I want to chip and pitch and not have ball speed, then I have to create that club head going out of order to get rid of some of the efficiencies and get rid of some of the speed. And that's where you know the left path kind of kicks in there because I'm still having to rotate my trunk. I'm still having to rotate my pelvis, but instead of feeling like that club rides down and starts kind of getting more of a neutral path to slightly into out to where all of a sudden I'm gonna hit that hot shot. That's where we can kind of go. Uh, like like the video I made with Mr. Pernice, that's where we start kind of trying to get that head to throw a little bit more. And the more I start throwing that head, the more that's gonna shift my path to the left, which is gonna be a very good situation uh when it comes to diminishing ball speed.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Because you still want to start it. We've still got to start that downswing with the chip with the with the torso, we gotta get it going left, yeah. Right? So we can still start it there, and I think that was a piece that was big for us. Was like, okay, you gotta you've still got to set yourself up.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

That's where a lot of pieces to the Mayo equation kind of work well. I just don't, it's not a mass game, it's a pressure game. So, like the thing that we talked about with you, right? Is I'm not trying to load into that trail side nearly as much as I would be with a full swing. If anything, I'm kind of like letting the pressure almost not mass, center of pressure, kind of stay more underneath the ball of that lead foot. Now, if I if I kind of keep the pressure more under the ball of my lead foot, that is going to steepen up the backswing plane a little bit. Like that is going to increase VSP. That's totally fine. Now, I think most people have kind of taken that and gotten way too far with it, and now they can't throw the head, and now they have a hard time managing loft, which is why so many people that employ that technique really hit those kind of like low checkers. But what I like to see is the pressure kind of staying a bit more left. I'm moving the arms and the club kind of back and across my body, but then it's almost like I'm just kind of starting that turn with that thoracic by pushing AP out of the lead foot. And now all of a sudden that club wants to go out. But now it's kind of more of a synced up thing with a little shallower VSP because I move the arms a little bit more around. So I would much rather kind of get a little bit more throw in there and a little bit more release in there by creating that twist versus just kind of stall the body and throw the hands and arms. And that's where I think people get really inconsistent results.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

And yeah, that's where I was. I was body stalls, arms throw, and sometimes I'd I'd catch it and time it up well. Yeah. But at the same time, I might not hit it as hard as I need to. Yeah. And it wouldn't go like it'd come out great, but I'm like, man, and hit it hard enough because I'm too worried about where low point is.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Um like the stall, like, don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for a stall and throw, and it's called a tie spinner, right? Like that's that's a fun shot to have. It's a cool shot to hit. I don't know how often you want to be hitting that shot in tournament play because your your margin for error is just very, very small.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

So to recap that one, it was making sure we've got kind of that right hand under because that's gonna produce holding the correct loft, like whatever you present at the ball, that's gonna keep that uh dynamic loft, correct?

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Spin loft dynamic loft, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

It's gonna keep what you want there to start and how you want to bring it back and present it. Yeah, and then you've got kind of the fold of the right arm, kind of around, but it's the VSP is going up with the pressure kind of under the lead ball of the foot. And as you get that torso going, you know, for me it felt like I was just kind of dropping that that last, that shallower was just like I'm turning and just dropping that palm, but keeping it like you're saying, keeping it under the whole way, yeah, correct?

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Like that was the thing that we we were talking about, talking about in the short game area was hey, when you finish, I want that right hand underneath. Like I want you seeing that the face is open still after impact and when you finish. Like, I want you to try to kind of get it to stay there versus kind of shutting the door with that right hand.

Practice With Productive Failure

SPEAKER_00 52:01

And the the drill we got to in the drill that people at home can take out to the practice area was that one armed right arm, and trying to feel you know, how do how do we produce that? How do we keep all that with just one arm? Yeah, um, and hit these really floaty shots. Um it's scary. Like, don't get me wrong. Like, yeah, you know, you can hit some battle. The the one the one that was shown on camera was not uh it wasn't the first one, it took a minute to calibrate. The first couple were shanked, yeah. Yeah, it takes a second, then there was some blades, like it takes you a second, but that's part of the the failing and practice. That's why it's practice. That's part of the failing of you know, this is going to produce a skill. We we were learning a new skill, we're gonna fail a couple times, and then light bulb's gonna hit.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Yeah, you know, it's that that's a whole other topic for another podcast for another day, but it's it's like, dude, there's nothing that drives me crazier than you know, watching people go practice and they're just so angry at themselves, and they're like, oh my god, I can't believe I hit that terrible shot. If you and you can talk to the motor learning people, you can talk to uh some of the the sports psyches, the mental coaches, like the the golden spot for your practice is like a 30% failure rate. Like that's kind of the magic, right? Is it's challenging enough to where you're engaged, but it's not so challenging to where you feel like you can't do it. And you know, if you're going to the short game area, I'll I'll spoil the surprise. You're gonna like picking shots that you're good at and practicing those. But the things that you know deep down that you're not very good at, you're gonna avoid. You yeah, you shy away from it. You shy away from it. So, you know, I I think that's the beauty of having me there, right? I can kind of be the cheerleader and be like, hey, it's okay, you hit that like crap, that looked cool. Let's try that again, and I can kind of talk you off that edge. But you know, there needs to be a fair amount of failure uh going on in a practice session for any learning to occur. And like that's the thing, right? Is is whether you are actively figuring it out and consciously figuring it out, or whether you're subconsciously figuring it out, which is more likely what's happening, like giving yourself permission to fail a little bit is generally how we're gonna learn how to do something new. And the thing that I've really noticed with analytical people, which probably would describe a lot of our listeners, is that they want to be able to explain like how they did what they just did. But generally, what I've I've kind of done over the years is I'll go to a short game area and I'll try to hit some different shots and I'll kind of explore some different things, and I'll start hitting like these shots that I think are so cool. And I'm like, oh, I really like that one. It's like a mid spinny, like I have no idea how I did it. I have a feel, but I haven't been able to process that feel in a way to where I can verbalize how I'm doing that or how that's being created. So it's it's important to realize, like, you know, if you're listening to this and you're wanting to work on your short game, you know, it's okay to go out there, try some new things that leads to some failure, but also leads to some cool shots, leads to that light at the end of the tunnel. But it's okay to walk away and go, I don't know how I did that, but I'm gonna keep doing that until I figure that part out. Like that's that's the learning process for people. And you know, there's a lot of guys that I've met over the years that, you know, and I think a good example of this because it's pretty well documented, but like DJ, DJ can't tell you how he does what he does, he just does it. And like there, there's some like beauty, beautiful like mind stuff going on there, right? To where like he doesn't care that he can't explain it, he can do it, and like to him, that's more important because that's how he made his livelihood. So I think that so many golfers, especially in this this era that we're in, with you know, knowing everything and being technically perfect and measuring everything, they want to be able to kind of explain it to you mathematically or what have you. But the the skill set is always going to be way more favorable for those that can do versus those that can explain.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Yeah. And that is uh that's a great point of just having some feel around the having some feel. You don't have to be able to explain how you hit that one, you just kind of feel it.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

It's like I I I called my shot, I be root it one time um at the honors. You know, I had I thought it was pretty saucy.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Uh, but I had a I got not only not only did he call his shot, he like turns to cat, he says, Let me see that towel. Wipes that like wipes the grid. I mean, we went full, like I was thinking, we're about to see something here.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Yeah, I mean, and and look, like, there's a part of me in that moment when I hit that shot to where I'm and I'm kind of rehearsing it, and I think I was even rehearsing it with one hand because I had the towel in the left hand. Um, but like there's a part to me that's thinking about this from like a technical perspective, and it's like, okay, I need the club to go in this way with this amount of loft, and I need like this is what I'm trying. Like, this is the I got a new piece of furniture from IKEA, and I'm going through the directions of how to put it together. Like, there's that, there's that part to it, but then as I'm making those like rehearsal swings, it's like trying to translate the directions into a feeling, right? And it's like, this is what I need to feel to get this to do what I want it to do. We know there's four legs on the chair, we know there's two cushions, yeah. Right, like I I kind of know how this works, yeah. Uh, and I know vividly what I want to produce, and then you know, being able to execute it obviously is fun and exciting and and makes you feel good about yourself. So, but yeah, I mean, I I think so many people they never get to that feel part, they never get to that, hey, I'm gonna trust myself here to execute this shot. And the thing that I'm most proud of uh with that particular shot is being able to work through that process, right? Being able to go from super technical thoughts, very internalized thoughts, to where once I wiped it with the towel the last time to get the do off of it, because I was going upstairs with this one and I was trying to get the friction where I needed it to be. But once I wiped it with the towel, it turned into, hey, this is my spot. This is where I need this ball to land, and I don't give a crap about anything else. Like that's what I'm trying to do here. Like, I wasn't thinking technically, I wasn't thinking about tempo, rhythm, how the club kicks, none of that stuff. It was purely uh it went from internal to external. This is the spot this ball's got to land for this shot to come up close. And luckily it did, and we had a little kick in, and like was happy. So yeah, it was an awesome shot. Uh, I wish we'd gotten that one on video. The uh oh, I would have totally shanked it if we had it videoed.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

The um the recipe you just gave us to steal from from the chef, the recipe you just gave us of that short game motion. Um that was not only was that with a bit of an open face, but we did that with a pretty square face. And you showed me what you were talking about a minute ago with the um with the spin that that at some point there's diminishing returns. And you were showing me that, hey, we can create a lot of friction with this square face and we can start to think in different land spots and use a 54 or use a square face 60 to to hit some of these that are a little bit uh mid-trajectory but are half they have a ton of spin on them. And um, I thought that was pretty eye-opening, but we can do that same motion for that shot. Now give us the we then went to okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

I mean, just to finish off on that thought, yeah, uh without getting myself kicked out, you know, I enjoy chipping off the green, I do. Like, you know, super tight collars out there at the honors, so that was pretty close too. But even a couple of times, like I would get over on the edge of the green, or we were just messing around and I would chip one at you off the putting surface. And like I do that pretty regularly, and people are like, How how do you not chunk it? But once again, if if I'm working that right hand from a from an open pointed to the sky position at the top to an open pointed to the to the sky finish, if I'm kind of spinning that hand this way as I go through, I'm never pointing that leading edge down to where I'm gonna dig. Like I might bruise the ground with the bounce if I'm working it this way, but I'm never like putting that leading edge straight into the ground. So that's why, you know, and I do it all the time with people when they're ooing and on, but you know, I'll I'll make a pretty decent size swing and chip one 30, 40 yards off a putting green. And like I have zero fear that I'm gonna chunk one or take a piece out of the out of the putting green because I'm not going like there's not a way to dig with the bounce. I can dig with the leading edge, but I'm I'm not gonna dig with that bounce.

High Soft Pitches Made Simple

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Yeah, I think after about 40 minutes of being over there, um I was confident enough to walk over to the collar, and we were both hitting some shots, you know, and no no issue with low point or no issue with taking any kind of it was gonna bruise it, but it was it was fun. It was really, you know, both of us just trying to play a little up and down game. But um we did get to okay, because I I want to talk about the high one and I want to talk about the bunker before we close this, but the high one I thought was interesting and and jump in. I'm just kind of giving it from my words of how I was figuring out the information that you were translating to me. That now we can have a bit of stand up getting away from the ground because that, as we know, away from the ground sends the head down. And you were saying to me that I could be less a little less rotational because we were gonna try and get that head to kind of kick through. Um, and so for me, it felt like I was just kind of folding my arms up. Um, it it looked very Rocco mediate to me, which you see him that master class that he does anytime he films something. But it's kind of this fold up and then stand up and just kind of release everything, and then that club head was just kind of kicking through. Talk us through that that um high shot.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Yeah, I mean, I I think with the high shot, you know, there is some rotation there, uh, for sure, but you know, I think a little vertical force goes a long way with the high shot, and you know, kind of what I was trying to get you to feel was it's almost like you kind of pick the golf ball up with the wedge and kind of throw it in the air.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

So really once yeah, once again, like getting that right hand to where it's pointed towards the sky a bit, we got some extension in the trail wrist, and then really kind of you know, we got to think about this. If I stand up, if I make some vertical force, that generally sends the club head down. Now, if I'm sending the club head down and creating more attack angle, which is another way you could say that, generally that's going to decrease that dynamic loft scenario. So we have to like work and quote unquote spin that shaft a bit and really kind of work the club more underneath. But if I kind of can match that with a little more up, like you were describing, kind of pushing up away from the ground, like now of a sudden I can kind of start hoisting that thing. And you know, I think one of the hardest shots in golf to hit is kind of like that four or five-yard pitch shot to where you know you need to get it up in the air because it's landing on like a downslope or whatever. And that's where you know you really can do some damage because I can still get the path left, I can still get the face to path weak, and I can still kind of like have a little bit of speed and and energy uh without just feeling like I can't hit it hard enough. So kind of getting you thinking more like body-ish with that high one versus trying to do something with the head, uh, I definitely think that was super helpful. I mean, very similar to to what we did in the bunker, right? Like, I think those the high shot that we're kind of trying to create in the bunker shot uh are very similar in a lot of ways.

Bunker Shots That Actually Work

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

So jump us into the bunker. We've got we talked through two scenarios, we talked through the Um the longer hey, we need to fly this 10 yards and it needs to roll out a little bit, like the kind of the one that's away from us. And then we talked about the short-sided high one. So go talk us through the the first one. Um the longer one, which I sometimes find harder to hit. I think the long one is really hard to hit because it's there are times where like I hit it and it's like, oh, that was good, but it's about to come out with a million RPMs of spin, it's gonna stop when I'm like I'm trying to get it to release for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Yeah, I think the long one is is an auto get a different club than your most lofted club. You know, I think that's the big thing is people are are getting in there with their 60. Uh, there's generally a lip on a bunker, so they're they're laying the face open a bit, and it's just like everything's kind of working against them in terms of getting this uh to to the hole. So I'm a I'm an auto, you know, if you normally chip with your 58, or I'm sorry, if you normally hit your bunker shots with your 58 or 60, uh I think it's an anytime it starts getting longer, I think it's an auto get out the sand wedge, get out the gap wedge. I hit a ton of bunker shots with a gap wedge. Um, I can't recommend that enough. That's kind of why I like generally speaking, the gap wedge to match the wedges versus match the irons, uh, because I like having that versatility out of a bunker and being able to hit that shot. But the thing that the thing that really separates the the short-sided bunker shot and the longer bunker shot, it's it's really if if we have that short-sided bunker shot, I can kind of get away with sticking the club into the sand and it never coming back out. Like I can just kind of bury that thing in the sand, and it's not the end of the world because I'm not trying to fly this very far. The problem that I see with the longer bunker shots is that people kind of take the, and look, I don't disagree. You know, we want to be entering uh the sand well before the ball, but the problem is that people like are like, well, as long as I hit two inches behind this ball, uh, I did my job. Well, where did it come out? Where did it get out of the sand? And that's a conversation that me and you have had about like picking wedges and grinds and bounces, and that's why I really like that that K star uh from Vokey because it kicks it back out of the sand. And where a lot of people get in getting a lot of issues with the bunker is that they get it deep and they get it into the sand, but they never get it back out, and now they just have like no speed. And you see that those people really, really struggle with those bunker shots, especially creating spin and or being able to hit the longer bunker shot. But where I think things kind of shift is I'm okay getting kind of steep and down and sticking the sticking that thing in the ground a bit if I'm kind of trying to hit that chunk and run uh out of that short-sighted scenario. But if I want to make spin, if I want to uh get this ball to want to stop when it gets on the surface, I have to have some speed. Like speed is is what's creating that spin out of the bunker. And that's where we have to be able to get this bunker, or I'm sorry, get this club out of that sand pretty quickly. And that's what I think that the tour guys do so much better than the amateurs, is that you see that thing go ripping through the sand. Now they take a fair amount of sand out, but they get that club through there. It doesn't get kind of stuck and bogged down in the sand uh because people are trying to hit down. And it kind of goes back to a lot of the things we've talked about with chipping and pitching, which have improved yours, which is getting some rotation with that thoracic and being able to keep moving versus a lot of people, they know they got to hit down, they get the shoulders kind of closed, if you will, they throw the arms down as hard as they can and keep the body kind of square or closed to kind of get the down to happen. But now there's just nowhere for the club to go and they kind of have to chicken wing it or whatever, and they've got no speed. So we want to feel like we get those arms to keep moving uh through the low point, through the sand, uh, and up to finish. We don't want to feel like we stall everything out and just kind of chop.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

And that's um a good way to think when you go from the analytical side to the feel side that we were just talking about of well, what do I feel of how to get this club to exit the sand? So, what what is what would I be doing to make it feel fast through the exit?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:53

Uh I worked with this really good player, I think it was like two, two or three years ago. Really good player, horrendous bunker player. Uh, they just never hit it in the sand. So like they never had to really figure it out. They just they unbelievable ball striker. Really, I think he's on the corn ferry tour now. But with that being said, one of the drills that I did with him is like the most simple drill ever, to where you get in the bunker and you draw the line, right, in the sand, and you're like, hey, I just want you to work down the line, and I want you to hit two inches behind this line or two inches in front of this line every time, right? Like, that's what I want you to do. And that honestly was a bit of a struggle for him in the beginning, but we got him to where he could hit two inches in front of this line like every time. I'm like, okay, cool, that's awesome. Now, here's what I want to do. I want to get you to hit two inches behind the line, but I want the club out, oops, I want the club out by the time it gets to the line. So I want to see it go in and out quicker because he was really good once again at creating like golfers are good at creating the down because you just have to let gravity win. So that's not hard to do, but he couldn't get it going back up. And once we kind of taught him that, man, like it really opened up the world to him. But I think we're so infatuated and not blading it out of the bunker and getting down and and kind of trying to like blow it up that we forget that we've got to get this thing through and out of the sand much quicker than we think.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

So there's a pretty good drill, right? So I was about to ask you, because uh, you know, the drill for the short game outside is is that one-handed. That was a good drill. So the drill for the sand, kind of like you're talking about there, draw the line, hit it on on the the front side, and then on the back, and get the thing to finish um at the line. Great drill for anyone at home. What caught you talked about the blade. What actually causes the blade out of the bunker?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

Uh it's kind of twofold. It's either you know, they get in there and they they don't create enough down so they catch the top of the ball. That's that's one way you could do it. The other way you can do it, which I think actually is kind of more apropos, if you will, is that when they get in there and they blade it, a lot of times what you see is that they they just lose, like there's just nowhere for this club to go. They get in there, they're trying to chop down, and then because their shoulders are still like there's nowhere for the club to go, so they have to start shortening the arms to kind of show so like everybody knows Jordan Spieth, uh, chicken wings the the heck out of the thing, right? Well, he chicken wings because that's his shallower. Like that's what he's doing. He's shortening the radius of the arms because he doesn't really get up very well and rotate very well, so he just kind of shallows it with the chicken wing. Well, that's what a lot of people do when they blade it in the bunkers, is they start getting the arm structure kind of you know falling apart, if you will, and kind of creating a lot of that chicken wing. But you see that a lot with you know, people try to make the down, and they either, you know, make too much of it and stay closed, or trying to create the down, they they hit the sand way too early, or they they get low point way too far behind, and then they have to pull up, and when they pull up, they catch the top of the ball as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

I always think it's um informative for you to talk about what causes the bad as well, because that's a good uh again, that's a feel of oh, okay, I can feel like that's how that would cause that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

Uh like I really like, you know, for your you know, stealing from Parker again, but like your vanilla bunker shot, like the the one you got to be really good at and kind of works in 80% of the situations you find yourself in. Like I really like seeing people practice that shot. And when they finish, you know, I like seeing obviously the face still a bit open, but I like seeing those arms like fairly straight and about hip high when they finish. So we're really kind of working this across, but we're doing it with enough rotation of where I can keep my arms kind of connected and get my arms kind of hip high with that face open a little bit. So it's kind of they can feel a little bit of that, and that's really going to be beneficial for a lot of people. But most of the people that I see, you know, over in a bunker when they're over there practicing, you know, they got the arms way high and the arms all folded, and they're like trying to do some of that stuff and like throw it over their left shoulder. And I'm not saying that there's there's not some things that we might be doing trying to hit like a high, soft one out of the bunker, uh, to where you would kind of break down the arms a little bit and try to throw the head a bit more around the corner. But for the most part, for that vanilla shot, like we've gotta we've gotta find a way to manage low point and manage the arm structure and just kind of create this like vanilla bunker shot that we are gonna use 80% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

And uh the quick indicator is that finish of did I keep the palm and the loft on the club, or did I let it hit the sand and I'm immediately here?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

That's a quick indicator.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:28

Um and sound, you know, like that that was the thing that really stood out to me when we were in the bunker is when you got better at delivering and getting getting that club out of the sand, like that we started hearing that thump, right? Versus like that kind of you know, whatever noise it makes. But there there was like a definitive, like, and I said that to you multiple times. Like I was raking the bunker and I was like, oh, that one sounded good. Oh, that one sounded that one didn't sound so good. That one sounded good. And it's like you kind of start learning, you know, like we talked about with chipping off the putting green or off the collar, you know, when you bruise the ground with the bounce, it makes a thump. Well, we're kind of chasing that same feeling, that same thump in the bunker as well. We don't want to really get that leading edge involved very much because otherwise we just start digging down into the sand and we can't get it back out.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

So the high one um being, well, just to start, you would do your line drill to make sure you can properly get in and out of the sand, uh, because that's gonna set us up for failure or success. And then just like in our pitching outside of the bunker, working on this right hand, making sure we're keeping everything on it, um, adding some speed for the the um short-sided high one. And then sounds like we're really not changing a whole lot other than the club of and then that that face of the club.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:57

Feeling more chippy for the long one, if that's where you're going. Like feeling more chippy, it's less of a bunker shot, more of just a straightforward pitch, especially on the long, like if you get that 30, 40 yard bunker shot, you're really not thinking you're in a bunker, like you got less loft in your hands than you think you should have. Uh, and and you're literally just kind of trying to hit that chippy shot. Like you're you know, those those when you find yourself in that 40 yard, 50 yard bunker shot, man, like you know, this is this is get out without a double. Like this is get it on the green, you know, try to hit a halfway functional golf shot, uh, but get it on the green, take your two pots and move on. Like you if you're if you're for if you're in that 40 yard bunker shot, like you've hit it in the wrong place. Like that's where you got to take your medicine a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Yeah, yeah. So so not trying to really not trying to take much sand. Um not a ton. Yeah, you're you're just thinking, I'm on grass, hit this one. But if we're in the bunker, though, and we want that one that just kind of chase it. Like, I want to get a little bit that ball kind of coming out of that window with um some roll to it, to maybe the pin that's on the other side of the green. Like I'm I'm kind of 15 yards or so.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:13

Yeah, that's more just kind of like that connected feel. We're not really trying to make a ton of speed, we've got less loft in our hands, and that generally that's a pretty good recipe for we're we're we have to like control low point, we have to get in and out of the sand, of course. But at the same time, like I'm not really trying to rip through that thing and create a ton of that spin. I'm I'm more kind of connected feeling, uh, kind of like when we chip and pitch and just kind of hit that vanilla one, and once again, less loft. That's gonna take away some of the spin for you.

Targets Stats And Real Expectations

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

Yeah, um it's the same as last week. Like I have so much more that I but I feel like this is a good stopping place. Uh I think next week we might want to pick up with some things around the green, practice-wise, that different shot every time.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

Like if I had to like put it in one set, like a different shot, like just keep hitting different and do like we talked about, like I would throw a ball out and I would be like, Hey Chuck, what what's this lie look like? Like, how's the ball sitting? Uh, what's the grass around the ball situation? Is it dry? Is it wet? Okay, cool. Like, how from a conceptual standpoint, how is that going to affect this shot? Well, this one's gonna come out a little lower and a little more left, and it's like, okay, well, low left, let's add loft and let's open the face, right? Let's let's get things pointed more, and just like the exercise of of doing that, and look, a lot of people, I pride myself on being pretty good at reading lies. Uh, and I think that's a skill set that doesn't really exist out there in amateur golf very much. So, you know, people are like, Well, I can't read lies. Well, well, go practice it, go like try to find some different stuff. And and I get it, if you're in Nebraska or Kansas, it's pretty flat, but you know, try to find some mountains, try to find something that you can chip and pitch off of and create some of these wacky lies, and then just start kind of you know, mentally taking some notes, like, oh well, when I get the ball above my feet and you know, kind of shifted left, what's that make the ball do? Versus if I have it above my feet and shifted right, like it's it's really you you gotta go out there, you gotta experiment, and you gotta kind of find the recipes that work for you. Yeah. And I think there was a a visual.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:40

I I was helped with the visual you had given me um from some of our clip data, we were looking at you know, sh shot pitch shots and how close they finished to the hole, because there was a there's a kind of a radius that you need to be in where you're you're not leaning on your putter as much because we already know how hard it is for a tour pro from eight feet. And um you had given me a good visual of like some T's around if I was doing some block practice around a hole I was hitting to, and it was like a 10-foot circle or whatever. And it's it's pretty eye-opening when you put the T's down, you've got this visual of are you really hitting it that close? Yeah. Um But we can get into that next week of some some things to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:32

But um I mean, like on tour, like I think it's what three feet they're 98%, right? So it's it's kind of setting your T's up. And look, you know, I no matter how good you are uh with your putting, you're going to miss the occasional two to four footer. Like it's just it's gonna happen. Think weird things happen in golf, uh, and that's how it works. But generally, what I'm trying to do is, you know, set the T's four to five feet away from the hole. And it's like, hey, we should from five feet and in, you know, I feel like, and once again, we're not putting on tour surfaces, tour greens, a lot of slope. You know, generally speaking, you should be about 80% or better uh from five feet and in. Like that's if you're not, go work on your five footers. But like we should be, you know, 80% from five feet and in. So, you know, I think I set the T's for you at five, six feet, something like that. And it's like, look, your job is to be able to competently make 80% of your five footers, but for you to be able to get to this position, you got to be able to chip it to this position. So it's getting like it, and I think also when I put the T's out there at five feet and you see like this five foot radius around this hole, you're like, oh, wait a minute. Like it takes a little pressure off when you're chipping and pitching. Like, you're not trying to get it to the to this very small hole, but you're like, Oh, I need to get it in there. Like, how how do I get this ball? As long as it's within there, we're good.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

Yeah, I do think that helps. I I'm a visual person, I think it helps. And then it's you're not coming off the golf course of man, I never got up and down today. Like, my short game sucks. Well, no, you missed you tried to get it up and down five times, none of which were closer than 12 feet, and you missed every putt from 12 feet, like okay. So you don't your chipping doesn't necessarily or like your short game doesn't necessarily suck, but yeah, you didn't hit it close enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:35

And that's the other thing, too, is like, you know, what does good look like with getting up and down? And if you're leading the PGA tour and scrambling, you're like 75%. So three out of four times you're gonna get this thing up and down. Well, we know that people don't hit enough greens. So if I'm going out there and I'm only hitting, you know, five, six greens, well, then I've got 12 opportunities, you know, to where I'm gonna have to get up and down. And if I've got 12 opportunities and I'm world class at 75%, four of the times you're not getting up and down. Like, I mean, it's it's not as easy as people think, and and people think that they should ship it close every time and you know they should make every putt. But the the math is the math for a reason, and statistics are statistics. So, you know, you've you've gotta you've gotta work at you know hitting greens. That's that is a huge benchmark. The higher the handicaps, the more important it comes, it becomes getting onto the green, greens in regulation. The higher your handicap, the more important that stat is to you. But then, like once you get to where you're hitting, you know, 12 to 14 greens around, which is just amazing, by the way. Like, that's that's a really high percentage. Once you get to that place, it's like, okay, how do I get to where my scrambling rate is, you know, 50 to 75 percent. And now instead of making four bogeys, I make two bogeys, and I can cover the like you can cover two bogeys, like you can make birdies, but when you start making an auto bogey every time you miss the green, like it's hard to make enough birdies to cover that.

Golf IQ Decisions And Closing

SPEAKER_00 1:26:12

Yeah, and then it puts so much pressure on your shots, like you you put a lot of undue pressure on yourself to hit the green and hit it close for sure. Absolutely. I think there's a a little bit more to get into as far as expectations around the greens. Um you and I had a great conversation the other night about um targets, like especially off the T and what is how you can really free yourself up with um understanding that if you miss that target that was a bad swing. Like you you need to have you need to not expect the bad swing. You need to be like we're trying to pull something off. Um I want to get into that next week. I thought that was really insightful. Um some more management, uh course management and and expectation management that I think can free people up. But um I don't have anything like this is great. I think people are gonna enjoy hearing some of this uh short game of how we get there just like we did last week with the full swing. Um I hope that our listeners uh please send us feedback and uh yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:34

I know I think it's good. I mean it's it's just kind of you know getting people's information base to a place to where they can make better decisions, right? You know, I think that's big. I think that's the purpose of the podcast. You know, we've we've talked about this a lot, but there's a lot of people out there maybe play a lot of golf, um, you know, maybe have spent a long time around the game, but their their golf IQ is just kind of low. And you know, I d I don't think that that's their fault. I just think that's what happened. Like, I think the thing that lowers the golf IQ more than anything is watching golf on TV because people start thinking that's the reality, and it it's just so far from reality it's not even close. So, you know, I I think we get lost in the weeds, we get very technical, we get very internalized with our thoughts, and now we think the expectation level is what the the guy winning on the PGA tour is, and you know, that's that's always gonna be tough. So, you know, I like having these conversations, I like trying to raise the golf IQ uh of people, and not saying that we're the smartest guy and have a super high golf IQ, but I think conceptually helping people understand some of this stuff is just gonna lead to them making better decisions for their own golf game. Yeah, and the better decisions. It's like I told you at the honors, man, it's not 155 from the fairway. Like my job is to keep this thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

Like it's keep it we want to that's where we want to get next week. Where I because I've been waiting to get to that of you we're gonna talk for 15 more minutes, but there's a great like when am I pushing the chips all in? And that's gonna be part of the conversation next week.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:20

Um not on 17, I can tell you that. I'm not pushing chips in.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

Not with Bertha looking at you in the face. Uh but I think that's the that's a great way to send us out that uh golf IQ going up helps us in those because I think we are our niche of listener, they're playing some tournament golf. And if you're playing tournament golf, things can move really fast, and you need to have an IQ that's keeping you very focused on what's the best decision here. Um because I'm hand up, I I've made some really dumb ones because things got moving too fast, and I wasn't thinking about it properly.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:05

It's like I always like anytime you see, I love watching poker. Uh I enjoy poker a lot, as you might suspect. I like the statistics and the math. Um, but it's it's like you watch these guys, right? And just you see the really experienced guys, the guys you know by name, the guys that are at every final table of every turn, and there's nobody that's that, but the guys that are putting themselves in position to win the most, they they will get methodically slow uh when when they have decisions to make. And they're they're really slowing things down and and trying to think through it and do the math accurately, uh, versus the guys that go on tilt, and it's just like, you know, you know, here comes you know the flop, here comes the turn, here's the sh here's the shove. You know, like they just go on tilt, and like you said, things get fast and they overlook things and they they don't see the trap that's been set for them. So I'm definitely a fan of of trying to help people make better decisions on the golf course. And look, whether whether you agree with how we make the decisions or not is totally fine, but having a good base of information to make your decision from, I think, is key.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:14

Another good episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:16

Boy, send us out. Yeah, man. So uh once again, you know, I think Chuck and I are pretty blown away with the with the amount of feedback we've gotten from the previous episode. Hopefully we get a lot of feedback from this episode. But once again, this these episodes and this podcast, they're here for you. So if you have something you want to hear us talk about, if you have a thing that maybe you struggle with or conceptually you don't really understand, you know, reach out to Chuck, reach out to me. Uh, you can find Chuck on Instagram at Hudlow423, you can find myself at theforceplate guy or at measured golf on Instagram. That's a great way to reach out to us. You can send us a DM. If you are interested in working with me on your golf game, uh similar to how me and Chuck work on his golf game, you can go to my website at measuredgolf.com. You can send me an email, you can sign up for a golf lesson, you can do all kinds of good stuff there. And you also can find links to all of our online platforms, including our YouTube channel, where not only do we put this podcast up, but we also have a lot of content pieces uh that kind of get into these and it's a little more visual. If you're somebody who likes what we have to say but would like to see it in action, you can go there and check some of that out. But lots of options for you to connect with us, and we hope you do. So, once again, thank you again for all the feedback. Please provide more of it. It only helps us make a better podcast for you. So get after it. It's golf season. We're all excited. I hope you are getting out this weekend and at least practicing and maybe doing a little bit of chipping on top of that. So keep working at it, keep grinding, and until next time, keep grinding.