The Poker Mindset That Lowers Scores

You can love golf and still be tired of the same story: one bold swing turns a solid round into a grind. We’re heading toward a bucket-list stretch of courses, but before we get lost in Monterey Peninsula, Cypress Point, and Pasatiempo, we slow down and talk about the decision-making that actually lowers scores anywhere.

We break down a course management framework that clicks fast: treat every shot like a poker hand. When should you “push the chips in” and take on the high-risk play, and when should you fold, lay up, and keep the round boring? We walk through a par-5 example where going for the green looks tempting, but the real math shows how quickly a birdie chance becomes a double. Then we connect it to a famous Augusta moment, where the best players go all in only when the situation truly demands it.

From there, we get practical about pressure. Tournament rounds and high-stakes weekend games don’t just “feel harder” because they are harder. Performance drops, commitment wobbles, and anomalies show up. We share how we coach a reset after a baffling swing, how to judge yourself by process over outcome, and how to build targets around your real shot dispersion so you can swing freely without steering. If your goal is dropping from a nine handicap into the three-to-six range, we also make the case for boring improvement: fewer big numbers, better scrambling, smarter lag putting, and fewer ego-driven decisions.

If this helps, subscribe, share it with a golf buddy who loves hero shots, and leave a review so more golfers find the show. What’s the one hole where you keep going all in when you should fold?

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Transcript

Welcome And Monterey Trip Preview

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listener, sit down and join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And as you might have noticed, this is not a Zoom background. I am actually out on the road. We have Mother's Day this weekend. So if you are hearing this, it is one day till Mother's Day. And be sure to call your mother, tell her you love her, get her some flowers, do something nice, but do not forget the mothers in your life. Because I know I don't have to remind my partner in crime, Chuck, of that because he is a good son. So Mother's Day's here, uh, golf season's here. We got the PGA championship coming up this week, and Chuck and I are going to be reunited again here pretty soon. So uh looking forward to that trip next week.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah. Uh hard to describe the trip we're about to take. Um as as we people like us more or less if we tell them what we're about to embark on. I don't know. Uh, friend of the show, Ken Noonan, who we've talked about before. Um, not sure how we're going to repay him for this, but he uh is taking us on a trip out west, and uh Monterey Peninsula and Cyprus are in the cards for us. So we've been and Pasa Tiempo. And Pasatiempo. Um, so Michael and I have been grinding away at how to get there. And uh for someone that doesn't fly west, like too far west a lot, you forget how difficult we were actually. You and I were talking about that this week, how difficult it is to get out there and to get back. It's not uh um as easy as I was thinking in my mind, like, oh, there's flights to San Jose all the time or to San Francisco or to Monterey, and there's not. So we're getting there in a roundabout way, but we're getting there.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

We're getting there. Chuck is going to take the wheel uh and hopefully deliver me safely for what I expect to be one of the best weeks of my life when it comes to golf, because Monterey Peninsula, um, I've heard nothing but great things, Dunes and Shore. Both that one I go ahead. Oh, both ranked in the top 100 uh in the US. So I think that is going to be pretty amazing in its own right. I know Monterey Peninsula Country Club is one of Chuck's favorites. He's been there before. Yeah, but you know, as is having that as an appetizer, like that should never be an appetizer, like that should be the main liner of any golf trip. And then going to Cypress Point and Pasitiempo on the same day. Like, I don't know that we've talked about that yet, but we are going to play Cypress Point and Positiempo on the same day. Like, as a golfer, uh, I just don't know how much and like I told Chuck, I I thank God the trip is coming up soon because it's all I'm thinking about. Like, I can't very distracted. I can't think about anything else other than what we have in front of us uh next week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Uh Monterey, as I was trying to describe to you, because you haven't been there yet. Um, I've been pretty blessed and lucky to play a lot of places, Shinnok, National Gothlings, Oakmont, Maidstone, Wade Hampton. You put all these courses, Calusa Pines, you put all these courses in there, and Monterey is still in my top five. And it's not a debate, it is in the top five. Um it is incredible. The piece of property is fantastic. You basically see the ocean the entire time you're there.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Um, and like we talked about, what's crazy is that course is in your top five, and in three days' time, you're possibly gonna have to bump it down the list with the courses we're going to.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

I mean, it's just unreal. Uh, I've been looking forward to um the last time I was out there in 2023, PASA was going through their nine, their uh restoration. So they had a nine closed and then they reopened and then a nine closed and reopened, and they uh played the Western Intercollegiate out there. So you've seen so if you are into watching college golf, you've definitely seen it on TV for those listening. Um it's a Alistair McKenzie. Obviously, we know his most famous one. Um he's also done uh uh Palmetto in South Carolina that I love. I think it is fantastic. Um and he did um oh, he did another one. Oh, um Burning Tree that um I've been to in DC and enjoy. So I'm looking forward to playing pasta. It's been on my list for a while uh to get there. And I and it's always fun when it's there are these public courses that are so highly ranked so that you can you can go and play it, but that are in pristine condition and that people hold in high regard.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, I think it's gonna be incredible. Um really looking forward to it, you know. Um, in case you're wondering where I'm at in the world, I am in the great state of Kentucky that I am from. And you know, just kind of thinking back to me younger, younger Mike, uh, just a kid from Richmond, Kentucky, getting to go and and play some of these amazing golf courses, you know, it it's not lost on me. Not a lot of people will get to have these opportunities or to have these experiences. So it means a lot to me. I'm I'm very excited as well. You know, Ken is great. I really enjoy my time with Ken. Uh, you're you're a great friend of mine as well. Uh, and getting to share that with you guys, you know, is is gonna be great too. I think you know, the golf courses are gonna be great, the company's gonna be great. Um I'm just hoping, you know, that the weather is nice. And if not, that's why they make rain gear. But we're gonna enjoy it nonetheless.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yeah, I'll definitely be packing that just in case because we're gonna play it. Uh and as you know, I I am addicted to golf. I do not play golf in the rain. Like, unless it's a competitive round of golf that I'm being forced to play in the rain, I do not play in the rain. But if it is raining out there, it will not matter. We will be playing.

Rain Golf For Easier Tee Times

SPEAKER_01 6:40

You know what's funny is I bet last year the bulkhead of my rounds were played in the rain. And the reason is is because, like I've told you, I play a lot of public golf. And with the you know, since 2020, with the abundance of golfers that we now have, it's it's difficult where I live to get out and play a public golf course because there's just so many people. But the nice thing about going out, and don't get me wrong, I'm not playing in you know hard rains or anything like that, but I'll go out when it's kind of sprinkling or it's it's raining a little bit, and it's it's kind of nice because you have the golf course for yourself. Generally, most people are kind of like you and don't play golf in the rain. But uh, if you're somebody who's trying to figure out a solution to public golf and getting a tea time, pick the rainy days, man. You get the place to yourself, you can play kind of quick. It's not it's not all that bad. Plus, this guy doesn't like the sun, as you can tell. I'm hiding.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

So that's good for you. You don't have to put on the sunscreen.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

It's it's one of the few rounds of golf, yeah, where I don't have to put on sunscreen. But do they make a hundred SPF for you? I uh I generally just go to the local Sherwin Williams and get SPF white and uh just kind of shellac it on real good and and keep my primer. Yeah, yeah. I I you gotta get good coverage though. That's that's the trick when selecting the eggshell white.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Um, but no, we're gonna have a great time. I know we've talked about doing uh it won't be next week's because we're not getting there until Sunday. But I think in two weeks' time, if you tune into the podcast, hopefully we'll have the beautiful uh coastline of California behind us and we will be reun reunited once again because I know uh I've had several people reach out to me and they're like, man, you guys gotta try to figure out how to do that podcast in person more often because it a lot of people really like that episode, and I think it'll think it'll be good to do one from there and and hopefully talk a little bit about the golf we've played. And uh I think it's gonna be a blast, man. I'm really looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, uh, I didn't think about that. That we'll do one more pod before um we play. And I have given some thought to some spots. Um if you're listening and have been out to Pebble, that back porch of the clubhouse. I've thought about it. I've thought about up at the hay, uh the par three course, uh setting up up there, maybe doing the pod. Um so we'll uh hopefully have a spot with with a cool background to uh to do it from.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Anything to get people to not have to look at me, I think is good. That's that's the biggest reason Chuck's on the podcast. So you guys have something better to look at than me. So uh yeah, for sure. I think it's I think it's gonna be great. It's very generous of Ken. I've got to make sure if there's one golf swing I fix this year, uh Ken's gotta be the one because this is a uh very generous offer on his behalf. And uh yeah, just you know, it's that's the thing I love about golf, man. Um I I've talked a lot about this in the past with some people, but the people you get to meet, you know, especially if you're a golf degenerate like us, you know, you share this this bond with people over golf, and it kind of, you know, you can look past religion, you can look past ethnicity, you can look past a lot of things because you you have this golf thing that you that you both cherish. But man, the the people that you meet that are golfers, it's it's a great group, man. Like I know golfers get a bad name, but I I've met some of the best people in the world through golf, and maybe that's just because you know I spend most of my time in golf, but you know, I just I'm I'm always appreciative of the people you get to meet along the way uh with this golf journey.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah, I I um just got back from a another trip slash tournament um up to the DC area. Um and that the first round we were playing with the group from Old Memorial in uh Florida. I think they are Sarasota, I think that's where Old Memorial is. And that was the conversation for several holes was how how incredible it is that this game brings so many people together. Um, and the relationships that you form and um could be business related. There was one of the guys I played with, he has this company that is solving the issue of uh I'm in the development world and solving the issue of of um sanitary sewer capacity that municipalities no longer have. And he's got this thing that he's created that's helping work with uh developers. So you you meet all these people, you meet um business contacts, you make new friends. Um it is so unique. I mean, great tournament golf is fun, and it's great to get the competitive juices going, but there is nothing like a trip with your buddies or close friends or golf degenerates and going somewhere awesome and sharing the experience with them and the stories you get and um the photos and the memories. There's there is absolutely nothing that touches that.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, I you know, I I couldn't agree more. Our in-house strength and conditioning guy, Aaron Kashigian. Um you know, he he's a baseball guy first and foremost, and and golf has kind of been his his new love and his new passion. And you know, he's really taken off with golf. But you know, I I was able to take him uh to Augusta National for the first time uh and let him experience that. Uh I was able, we shared a trip over there to Scotland, St. Andrews, and you're right, man. It's you know, I've I've been fortunate and I I get to travel a lot with what I do and get to go to some pretty amazing places, and that's great. Like it's wonderful. Like I I love getting out, seeing new things, but there's just something more to it when you can share that experience with somebody that you really love and respect and cherish through your time with, uh, which Aram would definitely be one of those people. But man, when when when you got a great group of people with a great environment, it's just nothing beats it, man. Like some of my some of my happiest memories by far on the golf course, you know, with friends and you know, being at the castle course at St. Andrews in the evening, you know, with Aram and getting to we both, you know, it's just like you almost need that validity. Like, is this as crazy as I think it is? Like, am I am I losing it here or is this really special? And yeah, you kind of get that reaffirmation of that. But yeah, man, I I think golf is a wonderful thing. You know, I I can be down on golf from time to time. I'm definitely not a fan of having so many tailgators on the golf course. Uh, I think golf is is been watered down over the past few years. But if you go searching and and you wind up in these special places like the Monterey Peninsula or St. Andrews or you know, Pick, there's a million of them. But if you wind up in some of these special places with special people, man, there's just not a lot, at least for me, that that makes life much better.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Um, let's get into the the golf degenerate side of our podcast. Let's go. Here we go. Let's get into giving the people what they want. That is the knowledge of the Michael Dutro, the force plate guy. Um we'll have plenty of time to talk about Cyprus here in the next couple weeks. Um I think we uh I think we ended the last pod uh with our with putting and also some some coarse um expectations or putting expectations linked to short game and and putting on the green. Um and one thing that we've been talking about for a couple of weeks and we we haven't gotten to yet, um kind of more into the course management slash expectation side, um is this uh going all in, pushing the chips in that you have this great analogy when you and I played together um back at the honors, and I hadn't heard someone describe it like this, and it was a bit of a light bulb moment. And I I think when we walked off of 17, I said to you, we should talk about that in the podcast, because that is a an interesting concept, unique concept that I haven't heard anybody say before. Um and uh I guess I should set kind of set the the stay or set the scene from where the term came up. 17 uh at the honors is a very gettable part five, but it is it is uniquely shaped, almost a bit. I mean, how would you describe it? It's not a it's not an S, but it's it's got a bend in the fairway.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Um definitely a premium on being on the correct side of the fairway.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Correct. Like you can hit the fairway. Pete die allows you to hit the fairway, but if you're not on the correct side, it makes accessing the green more difficult. I mean, you could only be I've I've had uh I've hit some killer drives on that hole and been 170 yards out, and I'm laying up because of the way the the hole is designed. It's a really unique design, very narrow green, kind of long, yeah. Yeah, it's it's very shallow but wide. Um and uh there is a monster bunker to the left of the green, uh Bertha, yes, and and it is deep, it's gotta be I don't know, what would you say, 30 feet deep, maybe more? I was gonna say 30, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah. So it's if you get in it, like building the green kind of is on top of, forgive me, but almost like on top of a ridge. Yes. Uh with the bunker at the bottom of the ridge. So everything kind of everything kind of mounds up to this ridge where the green sits on top, but then you've got this bunker kind of built into this ridge. So it's not like it's not like a pop bunker that's 30 feet deep, but it's it's kind of built into a hillside. Uh, so not only is it is it very deep, but it's also because of the slope of the terrain, it also plays quite long as well. If you're down there, it's it's not like you can just hit it straight up in the air and get it on the green. You've actually got to be able to carry it a little ways as well.

The Poker Rule For Course Strategy

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Good description there. Yeah, the the green sits up from where you hit. That that's another unique thing about that hole is that even if you're in the fairway and even if you have a shot, you're gonna be hitting off of a downhill lie to an elevated green. So it it adds that little nuance there. And um I think you were over on the left hand side, but in the rough, like you were on the correct side, but you were in the rough, I believe. I can't remember. Or were you were you?

SPEAKER_01 18:27

I think it was in the fairway. I had a good line.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Just in the fairway, yeah. And I think your number was what 220, 215. Yeah. It's it's a number that if I were in your position, I would have immediately said, Yeah, we're going for this.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Which is what you said to me.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Yeah, yeah. You you grabbed you grabbed a club to layup, and I was like, Well, what are you doing? It's only however far 220, like you you can easily as I remember it.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

I walked up to that ball, and both the caddy and you were there, and you both started telling me what it was to the front edge. And I said, Are you effing crazy?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah, yeah. You you quickly, it wasn't even a discussion of am I going for it? It was like, no, no, no, I'm not going for this, I'm laying it up. And um, so I scratched my head, you laid up, and then you hit, uh, as you did most of the day, you hit a very nice wedge shot just below the hole. Um it was like a back left pin, and and this pin is is one that you cannot be long, you can't be left. There's some spots that if if you were to go for it or or hit a bad shot in, you you would struggle to maybe make a five. Um and you hit this very nice wedge shot in.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Uh particularly proud of because it was an uphill lie, and those are the ones I normally struggle with a bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, it was very well struck. I mean, never left the flagstick, um, and gave yourself a great look at Bertie. So I after the round, we I asked you about that. I said, help me understand what your thought process was. And I'll let you take it from here about this going all in and when to push the chips. Uh, but I thought it was a really unique analogy that I have not heard before.

Rory At Augusta Goes All In

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah, so I mean, I from my vantage point and never having played the honors before, I couldn't even really see that bunker there um because of where I was and because of the distance and what have you. But it was pretty clear to me that something was there, uh, and it wasn't any good. And looking at that green being shallow, slightly uphill, you know, there were just a lot of things there that to me were warning signs. And, you know, I think a lot of it is intuition, a lot of it is maybe just a lot of years of playing uh competitive golf under my belt, but I'm always trying to kind of keep the golf boring and trying to minimize the risk of making a big number. And you know, part of the decision also was the fact that I was playing with rental clubs, I didn't really know how far, you know, each club really went. Uh, I was kind of just playing it by ear most of the day. But, you know, when I look at that, and kind of getting to your question a bit, when I look at that shot, yes, I I possess the ability to knock that ball onto the green, and then being on a par five and two gives me an advantage for scoring, and that's all well and good. But I think the thing a lot of golf Don't ever consider is well, what happens if you don't pull that shot off? What score are you going to make now? And we talked about Bertha, the the 30 30-foot deep bunker that that also has a bit of a carry to it. We talked about you know not wanting to be long given that pen being on the back left. Uh, there weren't really a lot of places to where I felt comfortable trying to hit a shot into that green that I could miss it and still guarantee a five. So I think what I talked about with you was, you know, thinking about poker and trying to get your money in when you have the when you have the nuts and trying to get your money out when you don't, you know, is this a moment that I want to push all my chips in and just go, hey, I got to try to make something happen here, and I'm gonna take on that risk. Like this is this is sitting at the final table with the World Series of Poker, and this is your moment. Either you're gonna pull it off and potentially go on to win, or you're gonna be eliminated from the tournament with a big number. So I think what I talked to you about was, you know, realistically, for me to have a chance of making that eagle or making that birdie, you know, it kind of ties in nicely to the putting statistics that we talked about last time. But what what are the what are the chances here of me knocking it on the green? What are the odds? And realistically, I didn't have it at much better than probably 50, 50 percent. So, okay, now there's a 50% chance I'm not on that green. Now, where am I potentially going to be? Well, potentially gonna be in that bunker, potentially gonna be long left, potentially gonna be over there on the right, which didn't look very inviting either, uh, because of the way the green is shaped there. Um, but it was it was not necessarily going to be a great spot to leave a golf ball if I didn't pull that shot off with 50% odds. So I already don't like my odds because it's kind of a coin flip. And then I started doing the math, talking about well, let's say that I don't pull it off. What are my odds of realistically getting that next shot within eight feet to where I have a coin flip of making the putt based off tour putting averages? And you know, realistically, those odds weren't very good either. So if I'm in that bunker, the chances I make birdie or par are pretty limited. If I'm long left, the chances of me making par are pretty limited. But I was kind of looking at it like, okay, this shot is a coin flip and potentially leads to problems down the road for the next shot and the shot after. However, there's a fairly wide fairway down there that I can lay up in. And like I told you, you know, I feel pretty confident my abilities to get a wedge on the green. I feel pretty confident my abilities if I have a good lie to get one within 15, 20 feet with a wedge. And it's like, okay, well, what are the odds that I can land one in that fairway with a five-iron? Well, I'm not even gonna try, like I'm not having to hit this five iron perfect. I'm not even having to hit it all that great. Like, I just need to pick the fat part of this layup area, which I think gave me like 80, 90 yards in, something like that, if I'm not mistaken. Uh, maybe a little less, maybe it was like 70. But I'm just gonna like kind of hit this punchy, kind of boring, nothing sensational five iron down there. Well, now all of a sudden, I feel like I've got a 70 to 80 percent chance for me to get that ball within scoring distance to the hole. So now the math is kind of working in my favor. And if I can get it to that position, which doesn't require perfect, it doesn't require anything great. But if I can just get that five iron down there in the fairway somewhere and get a wedge in my hands, I'm not gonna make worse than five. And I still have a good opportunity better than 50-50 to make a birdie. So, yes, I've I've taken Eagle off the board, but Eagle was never really that that good of a chance. It was never one of those things that I ever considered like, hey, let me push my chips in here, go for broke, thinking that I'm gonna catch a card on the river. Like, you don't want to be the guy that's waiting for that river card. Like, that that's a tough place to be. So for me, it was it just made way more sense initially looking at that, like, hey, I'm gonna lay this up to where I get back into my strengths. My strengths are not hitting 220-yard shots, my strengths are hitting wedges. So I want to get back to where I'm in kind of the driver's seat and can take advantage of the things that I do well. And you know what? If if I hit that wedge a little bit inside of what my expectation is, I'm gonna have a decent look at Birdie and I'd rather roll the dice there than to push my chips all in in the fairway and potentially bring in six, seven, god knows what, because there's a lot of ways to make a big number on that golf course. But like I told you, even though the honors has a 155 slope, it doesn't have a 155 slope from the middle of the fairway.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Right. I think that um you can use that logic. It's not just a par five logic, it's it's all throughout the golf course. Um I even had um a couple times this past week at my uh tournament in DC where I thought about that was kind of in the back of my mind on uh whether it was a maybe it was a recovery shot. And instead of could we split that gap and get it on the green shore, should we try it? Maybe not. Um you know, where are we gonna go all in? That that kind of stuck with me of where are we going all in um all throughout the golf course? And it is such a uh game changer uh on every shot. Par threes. I mean, where are you going all in? Are you going all in on taking a risky pin on? Or are you saying, man, my odds are pretty high to hit the green if I play 25 feet right of this and just rely on, okay, from 25 feet to gain strokes putting, all I have to do is get this inside two and a half feet. Um, and then from two and a half feet, the odds to make there are whatever they are, 90 something percent. So it was it's a unique, I'd never heard anybody say it that way. And when you start to think about it, you you really start thinking about it on every shot. Like you have obviously you have some decade stuff of of picking targets, but it really helps in the committing. I I thought it really helped in the committing of am I making the right decision category and freed me up of well, yeah, I'm making the right decision because I'm not pushing the chips in here. Uh, you have another really good story of uh Rory from a year ago on 15 at Augusta, and it was another great example that tied in.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

If you want to share that one, yeah, you're talking about last year when he won or two years ago when he beat Bryson.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah, when he beats Bryson for his for his win, for his first win.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah, he he knows what he's doing. Like he know, like in those moments, they create they don't they creep up on you in a way, but you're very aware of them in the moment. And and and you know, I wasn't privy to the conversation between him and Harry. Um, but you know, it's it's one of those, it's a calculated risk while kind of pushing the chips in. And Bryson had already shown it's kind of weird. It was almost like Bryson showed his cards, and then Rory got to decide what bet he wanted to put on the table. But Bryson going first, like the thing that set that whole situation up for Rory at 15 at Augusta two years ago was the fact that he outdrove Bryson off the T for the first time all day.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

By the way, to to set the stage, for those don't remember, this was the shot. This was the like hooked six iron around the tree, seven iron around the tree on 15 that gets there in two. So that was this that was the moment. So keep going.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

His shot, his shining moment, right? Like the moment that'll always go down, like as many moments as Rory's had, that'll be the one. Yeah, uh, and and for good reason because, like we said, he literally pushed off his chips in. But what set that situation up for him was the fact that he had driven or I'm sorry, outdriven uh Bryson for the first time all day. Bryson goes first and puts it in the water, and you know, Rory sensing the opportunity that was, pushed his chips all in. And you know, from what I understand and from what's been explained to me, I haven't gone back and looked at it. I need to. Um, but Rory goes back to the bag, grabs one extra club. I think Bryson hit eight iron in the water. Uh Rory went from eight iron to seven iron and hits the shot we all remember around the pine, uh, knocks it onto the green on 15 and goes on, you know, to win his first green jacket. But Rory in that moment knows this is it. Like, he might get a chance, he might catch an out, he might catch that card on the river if he hits it in the water, and then they kind of play it from there for sure. But Rory understands in that moment, like, I cannot be short in that water. I can. Like, there's zero way that I can do what Bryson just did. I have the advantage, I know what Bryson's cards are, I know what his bet is, and I have to like rise to this occasion. And you know, I think that's that's what makes me respect that shot and appreciate that shot more is understanding from a situational perspective that that was a two-horse race by that point in the tournament, and and Rory was basically playing heads-up poker with Bryson, and Bryson unfortunately flinched first, and Rory was able to seize that opportunity and and get his money in when he had the opportunity. Um, but it it's it's funny that you say this. It's we've talked about two par fives, but kind of thinking a little ahead, you know, we're gonna play 16 of Cyprus, which is a 230-yard par three kind of I've already thought about it, yeah. Right, and I've been watching the flyover videos like crazy, trying to wrap my noodle around what's to come. But like, if you look at that hole, there is a massive amount of fairway left of that hole if you're not feeling froggy and wanting to try to carry one 230. So I'm already in my head thinking, like, if we got a decent round going, you know, I know it's a par three, but I might be going left. Uh, same thing with Positieampo 17's like a 240-yard par three. Uh, but once again, there's like this big layup area, and I I get it, like the ego kicks in and it's a par three, and well, I gotta knock this on in one, and I gotta have an opportunity to make birdie. But sometimes the best way to scoring is preventing the big numbers, not always chasing the small numbers. And I think for a lot of our listeners, if there's one thing that I I could share that I think really helps golfers the most, it's this idea, like, so we had a listener reach out to me, and they're a nine handicap, and they want to get to like uh between a three and a six, and they're like wanting to know what they got to do to make that transition. And the answer really simply is make less big numbers, uh, make less doubles, make less bogeys. It is so much easier to make less doubles in big numbers than it is to try to make more birdies, and you know, working with a lot of collegiate players, working with a lot of professional players, you know, that's always kind of the caddy's job, I feel like, is we as golfers have egos and we've seen ourselves hit these shots and we know what our capacity is in terms of being this great thing that we want to be and pulling that shot off. But at the end of the day, you know, you have to to kind of think that through, like we were talking about 17 at the honors. Yeah, I I could hit this shot for sure. Like there, that is in my capacity to do this, but am I gonna protect the scorecard better by chasing making an eagle or by preventing that potential double bogey or worse happening there? And the answer is always gonna be it's way easier just to make that shot easier. And the same thing when it comes to 16 at Cyprus, 17 at Pasa Tiempo. You know, yes, we want to make a two, twos look amazing on a scorecard. Yes, we want to go into the clubhouse and talk about how we stuck one on this 230, 240-yard par three. But at the end of the day, if the wind's in your face or you don't feel comfortable with that number or whatever the case, you know, you have to be able to put your ego aside and go, Hey, I feel like I've got a strong hand here going back to poker. I feel like I have a strong hand here, but this guy just came over the top after I put out my initial bet. And like, do you want to re-raise? Do you want to let your ego do the talking? Do you want to potentially get blindsided by somebody actually holding the nuts? Or do you want to say, hey, obviously I missed something here. I I'm I'm not doing the math well, I'm not reading the person all that well. And should I just maybe go ahead and fold and and live for another day? And you know, that's going to be a decision that both of us have to make when it comes to 16 and 17, respectively, at the two courses we're getting ready to play.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah, I liked um uh the Rory shot. I liked what you said um when you were telling me that story. That uh one, he went back and got the longer club because he knew he couldn't get in the water, but he also knew he went ahead and said, This is it. Like, I can I can win the golf tournament right here, right now. And he went ahead and said, I'm all in. Yep, I can win this golf tournament right here with this shot and pull it off.

unknown 36:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Um, and psychologically, I think that did a lot for him, too, right? Like, you want to talk about getting in the zone, you want to talk about really embracing your inner best, you want to talk about living up to your dreams as a young man. You know, sometimes it's good, man. Like, I'm not opposed to pushing your chips all in. I just want you to push your chips all in when there's a better than a coin flip chance that you're gonna walk away victorious, and it's learning there's a time and place for that, but it's not every single time and place, and that's where I think golfers really get in trouble, is they're constantly taking on shots that they just don't need to. You can break this up, you can make this easier, you can you can lay up and make a birdie, you can lay up and make a par. Like golf doesn't demand perfect, and I know that so many golfers recognize that golf is a game of imperfect, but they sure don't play that way and they sure don't strategize that way.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah, I wonder, and he probably still makes the same decision because he's I mean, he's arguably the best golfer in the world, and he needs to just hook a seven-iron. Um, so he may have done the same thing, but it would have been interesting if it hadn't just been him and Bryson, if it had not just been against one other person, let's say he's not in the final group and there's another group behind him, and those there's two guys in that group that are one shot back or even with him. Does he make the same decision?

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Um, well, it's interesting on 15 that we've talked about before, too. And this is like one of those once again, every every decision we make is situational, right? So when you think about 15, like that layup sucks. Like, not that it laying up is hard, but what you're gonna be facing is a downhill lie to a very narrow green with water short and long. And you know, and now you're and not only that, but it's gonna be it's gonna be a wedge shot, which is like, oh, who cares? But it's an off-speed wedge, you're probably not hitting anything in there all that hard. You know, it's it's tough in that particular situation because I almost feel like you're you're better off in a lot of way because I I can't tell you how many times I've been down there and watched somebody ranked inside the top 50 in the world just look comically bad from laying up on 15 and still hitting it in the water. I watched who was it? I can't remember this past year. Augusta literally hit two balls in a row in the water from like 80 yards, and you're thinking, This guy's playing in the masters, he should be able to hit that within 10 feet. Well, he hit two in the water because it's not an easy layup on that hole.

Pressure Drops Performance Under Competition

SPEAKER_00 39:39

And talking about an off-speed wedge, Rory had just two holes before, already screwed up an off-speed wedge where he laid up on 13. Um, so that may have been in his mind as well. But uh, yeah, I think it's a it's an interesting because the math at that point was only between he and Bryson, essentially. So, like you're saying, if you're trying to give yourself coin flips, it is a lot easier to make the decision when it's just you, you know, a match play situation. Yeah, it more so advantageous, easier to do the math of coin flips.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

I would argue that it's it's always match play. Um, that situation is different. That taking that conversation and putting it aside for a minute, you know, the these conversations like so many people care about their handicap, which I think is ridiculous, but they do. So people care about their handicap. Well, your handicap is based off of par, so you always are in a match play heads-up situation with old man par. So, like thinking that way and thinking about how you're going to get closer to old man par and making your decisions based off that is huge, right? Like, I think I think that's something that golfers could do a much better job of in terms of hey, you know, I want to shoot as close to par as I can today. All right, cool. Well, is old what's old man parr doing here? Is he laying up or is he going for this? Or is is he trying to get to this position or that position? Like, I think it's a good way to kind of think about it and and realizing, like, hey, yes, everybody in your group knows you could hit this shot and you could pull it off, but everybody in this group is also seeing you dunking in the water and hit it out of bounds and do those things too. They're both a possibility. We don't like to think that way. We like to think, you know, in the positive, and we like to think that we can always kind of overcome. But the reality is, is not many of us are world-class players, especially probably the people listening to this podcast are not world-class players. They're probably carrying a handicap, you know. And let's say they're a 10. Well, the odds you're gonna pull it off every time as a 10 aren't very aren't very good and aren't in your favor.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Yeah. Um, and even the guys the best in the world. As you said, you watched the top 50 guy put in the water twice. I mean, we've we all watched plenty of them make mistakes on 12 that week and 13, and you know, it's just it's golf, it's tournament golf, that that stuff. I mean, we've talked about that, the what happens, uh, what you can expect when you're in a tournament, when you're in a pressure uh round and not just a fun round. Um, but it's that's just golf.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

It's I don't think people factor that in either, right? And and look, you know, tournament rounds are down, less and less people are are engaging with tournament golf and wanting to play tournament golf, but there's real research behind, you know, if you do everything you can to prepare and to be ready for that tournament round, there is you can expect at minimum a 10% decrease in performance from like a practice round to a competitive round, like there is going to be a drop-off because of pressure, because of uh the situation, because of the conditions, what have you. But like at best, there's a 10% drop. So if all of a sudden you're out there and you know you're just playing around and having a good time and doing that stuff, if you get down the stretch and you have a chance to shoot your lowest score ever, or you have a chance maybe to beat your buddy, you know, the pressure goes up, and you can't do the math the same way you've been doing it all day. You have to take into account, like, hey, I'm a little tight, hey, I'm thinking about my score a little bit now. Like, that's going to decrease our odds of pulling off that shot. So we have to be situationally aware of where we are uh in regards to this performative state.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Yeah, it is a

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Like, why do you play tournament rounds of golf, Chuck? Well, you play them so you can hit all the shots you otherwise would never hit. Yeah. Right? Like it just rounds it out for you. Like you go out there and you, you know, like I'm always amazed, but the last tournament I played in might have been the last ball I hit out of bounds with my driver. And you've you've seen me play golf, like hit it pretty straight. But it's it's wild. You'll go out there in a tournament round and just do things that you just never do. You can't even anticipate them because they're so weirdly unique to just playing in a tournament. But it's once again, it's that pressure, it's that situation, it's the conditions, it's what have you. But you know, that's that's the thing that you've got to factor in at some level, and just so many people only see themselves pulling off this shot and being the hero, which is what we all dream of when we think about playing golf and going out and having a great round. But realistically, like you got to do the math.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah. I I wonder if that's um why you see some of these professionals that get so demonstrative on the golf course because they've they if they've hit a poor shot, um, because they they haven't seen that at any point in their practice or any point in not that they don't all hit bad shots at points, but like your practice and your your your program rounds, you're probably not seeing some of the shots you see during the tournament round. So um it is that pressure of discounts. There is some um there's a huge difference to that.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

He hates hitting a snap hook with his driver, he doesn't hit it all that far, so the hook really kills him. Uh, and like a report, like it's it's it's out there on social media, you can find it. But they're like, he was talking about like snap hooks with his driver in tournament rounds, and they were like, Well, what do you do about it? He's like, I go hit eight million golf balls and hit them all dead straight and cut them all, and then I get to the first T of the first tournament and I snap hook it, and it's like you know, like it's it is, it's it's frustrating when you feel like you've done the work, it's frustrating when you feel like you've prepared, and then you go out there and you just see stuff that doesn't make the grade, like it absolutely drives these guys crazy. And and to your point, you know, you can't, no matter how hard you try to prepare, no matter how hard you try to practice, uh, you check all the boxes, but you go out there just feeling like you're on top of the world and it's your week, and then you see this shot that just you just never see, and you're like, where the heck did that come from? And then it's you know, if you're not working with somebody who's good at uh helping you kind of understand this stuff emotionally and psychologically, you know, it's it's pretty easy to just be like, Well, I suck. Like, I'm not, you know, like I'm no good. Like, look at that, that's just awful. You know, I thought it was hilarious. Um uh I'm Cam, uh not Cam Champ. Um who just won. Cameron Young? Cam Cam Young, thank you. Cameron Young, right? He's coming into 18, he's got a freaking forever lead. I think he had like a three or four, six shot lead, something like that. I wasn't paying that close attention last week at the uh at Dural. And you know, he's got water on the left, and he hits the shot and he misses the green right uh on 18, and he's like, Oh, it's just a terrible golf shot. Like, listening, like you're getting ready to win by a lot, dude. Like, you're obviously playing great, should be riding the high, and he's like, Oh, look at the terrible, and it's like the the CBS cameras caught it or whatever. But it's just to your point, man, like we always want more, we always envision ourselves doing great things, maybe a little above ourselves, beyond ourselves, and then to be in these real moments to where we can experience that and we come up short, or we don't do as well as we think we should. I mean, it it does, it'll drive you fruit loops for sure.

How Pros Reset After Mistakes

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Yeah, uh is there something you're saying to your pros, guys that you're working with? Um if they let let's say they have a a start or they see one of those swings that's like what in the world was that? The the type of thing that um it's such an anomaly that it's it's clearly not a swing mechanic issue. Yeah, human moment. W what are you saying to them or what are you uh harping on with them? If they get in that situation of I've I've hit this human moment shot and don't hit the pan, like you can't hit the panic button because it's it's just one swing. Um but I've heard you say it uh I can't remember the exact wording. Uh Rory, maybe this year it was in the third round, kind of a little on tilt, just a little on tilt, where he kind of was losing it a little bit. Um and you were it wasn't reset, but you said something like kind of he needed to do something to kind of get himself back. What do you see, or what do you try and impart on your players of how can we reset? Um because you don't want to get guided with your swing. That's that's the worst thing we can do, is to get guided. So what do you what are you prepping them? Because you need a plan. Like in tournament golf, you've gotta have a plan. And and and let's say it's not tournament golf. Let's say you're the 10 handicapper playing in your uh Saturday morning dogfight, like you that's important to to those guys, and it feels like maybe feels like a tournament. You gotta have a a way to get back so that you don't hit the panic button and it's not this guidy swing the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Yeah, I mean, if if there's somebody that's of faith, you know, I generally try to remind them of their faith and go, hey, are you perfect? Were you designed to be perfect? Oh no, you weren't? Okay, so you're allowed to make mistakes, right? Like that's that's the first thing is is recognizing it for what it is. It's a human moment. We made a mistake, I'm allowed to make mistakes as a human being. And if you think you're gonna go out there and play perfect or be mistake free, then I I think our ego's out of hand, and I think mentally we're in the wrong place to begin with. Uh, so we don't want to be in a place to where we're infallible because that that's just our vanity, that's just our ego, that's all those things that generally don't lead to good performance. But you know, I think the first step when we hit that one that doesn't make any sense and and doesn't match up with who we are and what we do, I think the first step is acknowledgement and just and calling it straight away and just hey, you know, I made a mistake, I made an error, um, and I'm a human being and I'm allowed to do that. Like, so let's start there. That tends to diffuse things quite a bit. And then I think, you know, to give him his credit, I think I think Kepka's talked about this, and I I think he was, I think Kepka is very honest when he talks about these things, but he talked about it in an interview a few years back before going to live, I believe. But he he talked about not caring when he hits a bad shot, and a reporter kind of pressed him on that. And he goes, Look, if if I did my process, if I controlled the controllables, if I did my process and I carried it all the way through and I had commitment to that shot, which is a byproduct of going through that process, if I did everything the way I always do things, the way I go about doing my job, if I did that and the shot turns out poorly, I can live with it. It's a mistake. But if I hit that shot that's out of bounds, or if I hit that shot that's not up to par and I didn't do that process, I didn't complete that process, I didn't commit to that golf shot because I didn't do my process, then I'm irate. And that's that's really gold, I think, because so many times these things happen. And if you can call it out right away and you can be objective with yourself and you can recognize you did something prior to hitting that shot that led to that shot. Whether it's you put a new thought in your head, whether you didn't, you know, do your pre-shot process the same way you always do, there was something along the lines that led to us hitting that shot the way that we didn't want to hit that shot. And that's where I think you know, caddies are super helpful, having coaches is super helpful, uh, but also being objective is super helpful. And you know, I I you know me, I love Pete Cowan. He talks about the three Rs. And I think we we're definitely losing our way with the three Rs. But the first R is that you have to respect yourself, okay. Meaning that you're not allowed to be out there talking bad about yourself, you're not allowed to be out there breaking clubs and throwing a pity party and doing all that stuff. So you got to respect yourself. The second R is you have to respect everybody that's helped you get there. So you got to respect your parents. If they helped you get there, you got to respect your coaches. If your wife is, you know, at home watching the kids so you can play golf, you got to respect her. So that's the second R. And then the third R, I think, is really the one that that really pertains to this, which is you got to be responsible for your own actions. And that's huge. And you hit that one that's wonky, you hit that one that's out of bounds in the water that embarrasses you. It didn't happen for any other reason, other than you did it. You hit that shot. You might not like it, and you probably don't, but you are the one that is actually responsible for that shot. So you have to be responsible for your own actions. And to be responsible for your own actions means you have to have accountability, and that's where you've you've got to look at that situation in totality and go, okay, what was my part in this? What did I do that led to that? And that's the part that generally people never get to. They generally blame it on, you know, here in Michigan, we have a place called Carl's Golf Land. Maybe you've seen the commercials, they do a lot of business online, and like the commercials, like all these excuses, kind of streaming, and that that's kind of the golfer, right? Like we have all these excuses, but in reality, we're the one that hits all the shots, and we have to take accountability and ownership of the bad ones just like we do the good ones, right? Now, and that gets me down another path. Um, by the way, you know, I think I think a very good thought about this too. I forgot this part, but you know, let's say you're on the fifth, sixth, seventh hole, or or maybe later, maybe earlier. But it's important to remind ourselves, like you you kind of you brought up a good point with this, and you were like, what do I do with the swing? Like, how do I recover? How do I reset? Well, if you if you've been hitting it okay all day, and you kind of have this fluke shot, do you do you really need to change anything, or do you need to get back to what you've been doing all day? And like that's another part to this that I think is important is, and this is where like if it's a tournament player, the caddy's really helpful. Hey man, we've been killing it all day, we've been hitting it awesome all day. Like that, just forget that one. Like, let's get back to what we've been doing all day long. Yeah, because it's way easier to get back to something than it is to find something, right? That's where I think golfers really they're quick to abandon ship, man. Yeah.

Build Targets Around Shot Dispersion

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Um, I think uh you and I have talked about this, and I don't know if we've talked about it on the podcast. If I have, stop me, but it goes to this um conversation you and I had about you we were picking, we were talking about picking lines off of T's with my driver. And um I was asking you uh about okay, well, if there's water left, like am I gonna hit my typical draw or am I gonna hit this fade? And and we were going back and forth on shot shapes, and um, and then you said, well, why why would you try and change all this up? Like you you kind of hit your driver straight. Um, you know, why are you why are you changing a lot of things in case you hit some snap hook left? Like when was the last time you hit a snap hook with your driver? And I was like, Well, I don't know, I can't remember. And you're like, yeah, so why are we why are we picking a target based off of the snap hook? Yeah, an anomalous. And it goes to what you're what you're saying um about like shots and and committing to shot. It was the Brooks Kepka comment of, and I have seen that in my golf game since we've had that conversation of if I have some doubt, I swing it much poorly or less less aggressively than if I'm like, oh, I know exactly like here's where I need to hit this, and just go and and do it. And I have this very good pre-shot of here's what I'm exactly what I'm doing. But if I get into a shot and I start thinking about this anomaly that may occur, there's this that that's when I typically find the goofy swing happens. Um but I thought your comment about if you've already picked a good target, like if you've if you picked a good target, you've given yourself the space for the dispersion, okay, and just go like okay, you've done it. Like we don't need to to just because there's water left, if you hit it in there, then what did you do prior to the shot that caused some doubt or would cause you, or or is it just an anomaly? And you just like yeah, the only thing you can't do here is hit in the water, but you did like it, it's just the mistake, and it that and it stings the ego, like it it definitely does.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Like you hit like you know, that I think you're talking about like 17 at at the honors, there's water all down the left. Am I getting this right?

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Oh, it's it's seven and fifteen, or seven, excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

So, like seven, there's water all down the like anybody with a brain knows you can't hit it in the water, can't hit it left. Uh, but I I guarantee you, if they dredge that thing out, they're gonna find a whole bunch of golf balls. So people do it. And you know, it's it's just one of those things, man, to where it hurts the ego, it stings the ego, and and generally what we do as human beings when our ego gets hurt is we make excuses and we we try to to rationalize it and all that. But at the end of the day, like we just made a mistake somewhere along the line that allowed us to hit that ball in the water on the left. Yeah, it's I mean, I hate to put it that bluntly, but it just kind of is what it is, you know. It's you've got to set up the play to your strengths, and for you, and we have data that supports it with clipped, you know, your driver for you is a weapon. So why would we ever like try to try to not use the weapon that we have? And look, you know, yeah, every now and then maybe you sneak one in the water or whatever. Well, you know, that's how the math plays out. Um, but at the end of the day, yeah, I I want you in that moment, knowing that this is a weapon for you, knowing that your target is X amount of yards wide, like I want you stepping up there with confidence, and like that water doesn't even exist. Um, so that's that's kind of how you have to play golf, and that's that's how you have to set your strategy. But you've also got to live with your strategy and realize like you made a conscious, or maybe maybe not, maybe you made a subconscious uh decision that hey, this is what I'm doing, this is how I'm gonna do it, and sometimes it just doesn't work out, you know. Sometimes, you know, pocket rockets, pocket aces, and poker don't always win.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

Yeah, and I think that freed me up, that conversation of wow, you're right. I now it would probably be a different conversation if we knew my driver was all over the place. Then it's probably a different conversation. But I think that freed me up. And for guys playing tournament golf or or that get under the gun in certain situations, I've noticed how much more that has helped me. Of I've I've done everything I can. I have stacked every deck, every number in my favor. I've got to go swing, and I can't go into this with any doubt because if I do, then then that's my swing isn't going to produce the result that I'm expecting by where I've aimed.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

And um I'll give you a good one. So the other day, uh, I had had a break, I had like a lunch break in between a couple lessons. So I kind of whoofed down some food and uh was hitting some balls because I'm geeked up about what we got coming up. So I hit some eight irons, and I the only reason I know is because I'm gonna tell you in the story, but I hit 27 balls before my next lesson got there. So my guy walks to the door, he's like, Holy crap, you're hitting balls. And I was like, Yeah, I'm hitting a few. And he's like, Do you care if I watch you hit a few? Like, will you keep hitting? I was like, sure, whatever. So I'm hitting these eight irons, right? And they are the distance I need them to be, so they were they were flying like between 150, 155, which is kind of where I like my eight iron to be. I don't hit it forever, but like 150, 155, and more or less out of the middle of the face, and the dynamic lie was really consistent, which is something I kind of keep an eye on with me, and like generally I was pretty pleased with them. And the guy's like, oh man, man, those are those are just they're drawing too much, they're drawing too much. So literally every shot that I hit started where I was aimed, right at the middle of the screen, because that's where I'm aiming at. Obviously, I'm indoors, and then every ball drew about 15 feet. So I pull up the shot dispersion for those 27 shots I just hit, and literally you could have taken a picnic blanket and thrown it over all 27 shots. And I look at the guy and I go, So you're telling me this draw is too much? He goes, Oh, yeah, it's not on the line. It's not about being on the line, it's about understanding what the ball is going to do and then building a strategy for that. So for me, when I get on the golf course, I better have my target that I'm aiming at 15 feet right of where I want the ball to finish. And that's the thing that so many golfers don't get, they think they just want to hit it down a highway all day long. And yeah, that'd be great if that's kind of what your natural ball flight is. But if you draw it a little bit, if you fade it a little bit, whatever your case is, it's about being consistent in what you do and then being able to build a strategy around that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

Yeah, I I just really liked you you hear people talk about the pre-shot routine and getting you know locked in. And I I hadn't really had a clear understanding or or uh commitment to it until because like, yeah, well, I picked my target and okay, I I know what shot I want to hit. And I was to me that was okay, well, I've done my pre-shot, but but then your your last piece that connected all together was okay, and now there is no hold on, there is no there is no extra thought, there's no uh anomalies that cross your mind that could happen. Like now you commit and and and try and pull off what you're doing. And if you don't, that's just one that's just a goofy one. And like you you did everything you could, and that I think that freed me up and that you're that whole your human aspect, because every every shot is just because there's water on the left on this hole, and okay, yeah, we can't miss it there, but then the next it's uh you know, you're a hundred yards, and you okay, well, we should hit the green, but you miss that one. Um, there's always every shot's the well, I can't believe I did that. There's always a I can't believe I missed it there. And that's just an easier sport, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

It's hard, it's a hard game, man. Like it's a hard game, it's a hard game, and it it look, man, like these golf course architects get paid to trick us. Like, that's what they get paid for, that's what they become famous for. Is how do they just how do they deceive us on the golf course? How do they force us into doing something that otherwise we would never do standing in the middle of a field? Um, that's what they get paid to do, man. And and you know, not to keep going back to it, but But you know, visually there's going to be a lot of tricks that we see when we go out and play some of these amazing golf courses, and that's why they're famous because they they have these tricks. Um, but it's it's being able to kind of see through that and go, you know, hey, I know that the Pacific Ocean's right there, and I know that there's a cliff right there, and I know there's a deep bunker right there, but this is a this is a 150-yard shot that's playing 150 yards like it's being able to kind of see through the noise and understand like what is the task in front of me? Have I done this? What are the odds of me being able to do this right here, right now? And okay, like let's go. Like, that's that's not a pushing your chips all in kind of thing. That's a understanding who you are, how you play, and how you're gonna get it around the golf course. You know, I've I've never been a long hitter by any stretch of the imagination. Uh, I hit it longer now than I have at any other point in my life, but you know, I've never been this long hitter. And dude, I've I've had a career of beating people that fly it way by me. Like, there's a lot of ways to get it around the golf course and to be effective on the golf course. But a big part to that, if not the whole thing, is understanding who you are, what you're good at, what you're not good at, and trying to play to your strengths and make like we've talked about, play boring golf. A lot of fairways, a lot of greens. Life's not going to be too difficult. But man, you get outside of those fairways, you get off those greens, and now all of a sudden you're really rolling the dice.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

Yeah. I think we've maybe hit a good stopping point, unless you've got yeah. I mean, it's something else to I think it's was a good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Like, I I really enjoy talking about this stuff, you know. To the to the guy that how do I get from a nine to a six to a three? You know, the the thing that we talked about, because I brought that up to you that that listener had sent that in, you know, the thing we kind of talked about was, you know, so much of getting to this scratch level that everybody aspires to do is is doing the stuff that's boring. It's getting better at scrambling, it's getting better at putting. It's it's really not ball striking it better. If you're a single-digit handicap, you probably hit the ball well enough to be a scratch golfer. It's just you've got to be able to protect yourself when you do miss greens because you're gonna miss greens. Like scratches, scratch golfers do not hit more greens than anybody else. Scratch, like it's a statistical average, right? Like if you're world-class on the PGA tour, you're hitting 75% of your greens, they're not hitting every green, and I promise that they're better ball strikers than a scratch. So it's it's you're not gonna hit every green, you're not gonna, you know, all of a sudden make every putt just because you're scratched. You've but you've gotta you've got to get good at that stuff. And I thought you had a good point earlier where you were talking about lag putting in a particular situation. You know, if if you're out there playing golf and you're chasing a score and you've got a 25-footer, your job is not to make that putt. It's not, it's to get it to 10% or less, which would be two and a half feet. You know, like that's that's how you get good at golf. That's how you start working the math in your favor, but it's it's constantly learning how to take long art long odds and make them short odds. And the better you can get at doing that on the golf course, the the lower scores you're gonna shoot.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Yeah, I think uh uh I'm I'm gonna pick on another friend of the show, Wayne Brantley, for just a second. Wayne O. I'm gonna so there was a point this this tournament we played. You you have a group of four from your club, and you're paired up in different formats throughout the weekend. And so he and I are are paired up in a format. And um he's gonna go, they had moved the T's in a way on this one hole that they had made it drivable. And um Wayne's uh strength isn't maybe not his driver. He he has some length, but it's maybe making sure it's in the fairway is not his his strength. So we said, okay, Wayne, you're gonna go first, and we're gonna lay this thing up. I I asked him, I said, Hey, what's what numbers do you like from the from the fairway? Because I I'm gonna like anything from inside 120. I'll love it. So we get to a number, we decide on a number that he likes, and he's gonna pull his five iron, and if he hits in the fairway, I'm gonna hit driver and and take us down, be aggressive and take us down there. And the last thing I asked him, or the last thing I said to him was I was like, Yeah, that you know, at that at that cart up there. And he goes, Well, that's that's way too far right. And I said, Well, where do you want to aim? And he goes, Well, I just want to take it right over this, I want to take it right over this uh fairway bunker. And I said, Well, Wayne, if you take it right over the fairway bunker and it and it moves five yards left, it's gonna be in the tall ru like the tall fescue. Like we the ball that that ball's gone. And he said, But that's if I go too far right, or if I if I hit this right, um, or where you want me to aim, uh, I may miss it in the right rough. And I said, Well then but we've picked a good target, like the we've given ourselves the dispersion here. I've given you the cart, like that's where you need to aim this. He's like, but I can just hit it over the bunker. I said, Until you miss it left, then then what do we do when you've missed it left? Um which is his miss. Huh?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:51

Which is his miss.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:53

Right. I s and that's in my mind, I'm thinking that too. I'm like, I know that's his miss. I'm I'm not saying it that that's your miss to put more doubt in his head. And um he hits it, he begrudgingly hits it and hits it exactly where I where I tell him, and I was and he goes, Okay, well, yeah, we're you know, we're fine now. And I said, Yeah, but and he wanted to argue with me and say, but we could have been we could have been 10 yards closer. And I said, Well, but we but we were getting to a number that we liked. So what what is the difference in 10 10 yards closer um when we're making sure we're getting to that number? Uh because if you miss it left, we so what number did you end up having into the green? Well, so then we so then I hit and we hit uh I hit driver and I was up there greenside. Um but had we needed his when we shot his, it was a good, it was, you know, like 85 yards or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

But um which is like for most people is probably like a a full full 58, full 60, or or maybe like a three-quarter like sand wedge kind of thing, which is a great number to be at. Like I don't understand, like I don't think you're statistically gonna gain that much with 10 yards, like going from 85 to 75. Like, I don't I don't see what the benefit is there.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:18

No, because I think we've talked about it, it's like from I don't know, whatever it is, like 50 to or 60 to 125. Like there's no mathematical advantage shot strokes gained.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

They're all they're all kind of feely off speed wedges.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

Yeah, there's no there's no game, but but to the point of the guy that's trying to improve from a nine to a six, six to a three, like those were those are the encourse decisions that you know in Wayne's mind, it was oh well. I hit this straight over the bunker. And I'm like, Wayne, are you looking at what's left of the bunker that is in the shot dispersion? Like when you pick that target, you're you have brought trouble into the dispersion. We we need to move this. I don't like it, Paul. It's exactly. I said, you if if you're going to lay up, lay out, like don't like what is and I said to him, I said, why are you pushing? I literally said, Why are you pushing the chips in?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

What he hit off the T, do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

What did he hit?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:25

Yeah. Five iron?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Five iron or something, six iron.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:28

Yeah, right. So it's like, okay, well, if you wanted 10 yards closer, you should have hit your freaking hybrid or your four iron.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:34

Well, there was a a there was a spot where the fairway kind of runs out and it would have been in the rough, and I said, the only thing we can't do, like we can't be left unless not be in the rough. We need we need a chance. The greens were so firm uh and fast, they were super bouncy and rolling at 14s. And I was like, the only thing we can't do to try and make birdie is don't hit it in the rough, and don't hit it, um, don't hit it left.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

And so that was the conversation of yeah, and and to follow up on that, I would say, you know, if you if you're trying to get better at golf and you're looking at the situation and it seems hard, well, maybe reframe that situation and and try to figure out how to make this hole as easy as possible. And it's it and I get it, you know, like we want to make birdies, we want to make eagles, we want to have those low numbers on the scorecards, and that makes us feel good, and that gives us you know the big dopamine hit and and blows our ego up. But at the same time, you know, if you're trying to improve your score, if you're trying to get your handicap lower, if you're trying to do those things, you know, there's a lot of benefit and there's a lot of merit to make this hole easier. Don't make you know, the worst thing ever is you're standing there looking at a par five and you're gonna go for it in two, and you're thinking about you know, eagle or birdie at worst, you know, that's kind of the thought you have in your head, and then you walk off the hole with a damn six, right? Or seven, right? Like, there's there's absolutely nothing you can do worse to yourself than that. So it's hey, how do I play this hole and guarantee that five is the worst score I make walking on? And look, I get it. Some sh some par fours are short, and you feel like you got to take advantage of them, but once again, that's that's mostly an ego-based thing. It's if it's a short par four and it's one that you can kind of feel like you can get to most of the time. The real trick to that hole is never making above five, right? That's that's kind of the way you got to think about that versus oh my god, I gotta make a three.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:40

Yeah, and that's I was pretty proud of Wayne. He he quickly said, I don't think this is a driver for me. Um, and I said, I agree with you, it's not. I've and and to your point of how do we make this easy, the easy play is we need to hit this ball in the fairway because it was a very tiny green with a lot of slope. And uh the going back to keep making it easy. Well, if we hit it in the rough, I don't care where we are, we could be 40 yards, we're gonna have a really hard time getting this ball to stop. And we're and there's a there's a greater chance going back to our where we get the coin flip, there's a way greater chance that this ball is not on the green after it finishes because of the way the course is set up at the moment. And um so I I think that's to your point of keep making it easier and what I was gonna say of of of how to just keep making easy pars and and not the five or six, and that's a great example on that whole of hey, the the really boring way to do this is we're gonna pick a good target that with an iron takes out every bad thing that could happen to us. We hit it to there, we we get to a good number with a wedge from the fairway where we know we can spin it, and even if we're 20 feet away, we're still fine because we're gonna two-putt and move on.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:13

Um hundred percent. I agree with that.

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SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

Yeah. Um, but this was uh this was fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Um, by the way, you didn't even mention it or you didn't even comment what I'm representing today.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

I did see that. I noticed that is that's become your favorite piece.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:31

It is my favorite piece. I wear it all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

It's a good piece on you.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

Shout out to Shues. Uh, we would love to have Shues as a official apparel sponsor of this podcast. So if anybody from Schuuss is listening, we'd love to have you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:47

Um, Daddy needs some new rain gear.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

Yeah, I have some of their rain gear, and it is the best rain gear I have ever.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:55

I actually ordered new rain pants last night. Did you? I have I have two rain jackets. One is from St. Andrews, which talk about a flex, having your rain gear from St. Andrews, like that's the place to have it from. And then I have another uh rain jacket from the Rye Club or from the Rye. I don't even think they call it the Club. I think it's just called the Rye, uh, over in England, which is one of my absolute favorites. And I'm sure we'll talk about that at a later date, too. But yeah, so it's there, they they make me feel good. I I feel bad having to put them on, but then once I have that logo on me, I'm like, oh, I feel good about myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:31

Well, I I hope that um uh the listeners can get something out of this episode. Uh my my biggest takeaway for anyone listening would would be the when are we going all in? How are we playing to our strengths? How are we playing to the coin flips? Um, and the um here's a fun thought for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

If you're playing in a poker tournament and you never push your chips all in, you win.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:05

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:07

That is a really good way to think about this. Like you don't look, man, I play golf with people, not you, I'm not being passive aggressive, but I play golf with people every single swing, they're pushing those chips all in. It's tough to win a poker tournament when you're pushing all in on every hand when you're back. But if you can get to the end of a tournament and you never had to go all in, you probably had a pretty good tournament.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:30

Yeah. And I hope that uh I hope that people will also take because it was um so enlightening for me, the um that pre-shot routine of once you've picked that target, let that thing go and let and and don't get like you you've done the work to put the math in your favor. So there shouldn't be a thought of, and and I'm super guilty of it, but it's been helping me in pressure situations of you know you you've stacked you've stacked the odds. You make a swing. Make the swing that you've been making that you know is good, that that gets you in a good spot, and don't think about the anomalies. And if you hit it there in a bad spot, that's just golf. Um take ownership and move on. Yeah, just man, maybe, and maybe that's hey, I've I've I do have some swing mechanic flaw on that shot. And maybe that's the case, and and you figure it out after the round. Um but I find more often than not, it is at least for me, more so of a non-commitment. And I didn't realize that I was being non-committal.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:45

Uh, I thought I was by we could find a few of your exes that think you're non-committal. Uh no, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

Let's not go there.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:56

Well, before we get too deep into Chuck's dating history, uh, I do think it's been a good episode. I I think there's a lot of stuff there that's gonna help some people uh you know lower that handicap, shoot some lower scores this year. Um, but yeah, we're excited. We're gonna keep the podcast rolling. Uh hopefully you've picked up on the fact that if you reach out to us, uh, we will do our very best to get to it on the podcast and answer some of your questions. So if you're interested in reaching out to us, uh you can find us on Instagram. You can find Chuck at Hudlove423, you can find myself at the Forceplate Guy or at Measured Golf on Instagram. If that's a bit much for you to remember, you can always go to our website at measuredgolf.com. And if you send an email, it will come to me. And you also, where you find this podcast, uh, wherever that may be, uh, whether it be the actual podcast format or whether that be the YouTube video format, uh, you can also reach out to us there in the comment section as well. So uh definitely reach out, let us know what you're interested in, let us know what you want to hear us talk about. Uh if you're like our man Ken and you'd like to have us out to your wonderful golfing property, uh, we're always keen on doing that as well. But it's been great. It's been a blast having Chuck on board. Excited to play some golf with him, uh, some more golf with him, I should say. But we're gonna keep it going and we hope you guys are enjoying it. And like we say, you know, make sure you're letting us know what you want to hear because this podcast uh is is for you guys. We want you to get what you need to play better golf and enjoy your golf more. So that'll do it for us. And until next time, keep grinding.