How To Guarantee The Best Club Fitting And Why Gapping Matters

New driver season messes with your brain. One minute you love your gamer, the next you’re wondering if a new Titleist head and a trendy shaft will magically add ball speed and fix your misses. We talk through Chuck’s real-world driver fitting experience, what actually changed, what didn’t, and why “it feels amazing” is not the same thing as “it earns a spot in the bag.”

From there, we get into the stuff that really decides whether a fitting helps: bringing baseline TrackMan numbers, testing outside so you can see true ball flight, and working with a fitter who will tweak loft, lie, weights, and strike location instead of selling you whatever goes farthest once. We also unpack the shaft rabbit hole, including why a shaft can feel totally different in your hands than its published profile suggests, and why reselling shafts makes experimenting less painful for golf gear junkies.

Then we zoom out from gear to scoring. We make the case for committing to one golf ball model (yes, it matters on every shot, including putting feel), and we break down wedge play on firm, fast greens: how to take spin off by choosing more club and swinging easier, when to play for spin, and how rough changes friction so the ball releases more than you expect. We also sprinkle in some tour golf watching, course setup takes, and our growing excitement for an upcoming Monterey Peninsula trip.

If you enjoy golf club fitting, golf equipment talk, wedge tips, and practical coaching-minded strategy, hit subscribe, share this with a golf buddy, and leave a review so more golfers can find the show. What’s the most expensive club purchase you still aren’t sure about?

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Transcript

Welcome And Trip Anticipation

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listener, sit down and join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And we're excited. It's uh countdown to greatest golf trip of my life, maybe not Chuck's, but definitely of mine. And we've got the PGA on, and it is just rocking and rolling in golf season. The weather starting to cooperate here in Michigan. We might actually get into the 70s sometime uh before August, which will be nice. And uh yeah, we're looking forward to playing some golf, but it's another week, it's another episode, and I know Chuck and I are quite distracted uh with our preparation of going out to the Monterey Peninsula and playing some golf with our dear friend and listener, Mr. Ken Noonan. Um, I'm really looking forward to this. I think it's gonna be a great time. Uh, we've talked about that a little bit in the past, and I know we're doing an episode from out there, so we probably won't get into that too much today. But a lot of things going on in the golf world. Chuck had a had a fitting today. Uh we are we're we're in it, man. Like you're you're in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Yeah. Yeah. Uh tested out. You already have it, the GTS. I have a three.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

You don't have the the new one. I don't have the new one, no. Okay, I thought you did. Uh I'm not that cool. I'm not a I'm not a content creator. I don't get anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Uh so I yeah, tested that out today. Um I think we were anticipating some uh movement with ball speed, but uh didn't didn't see a ton of it. I mean it feels great.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Um feels great, looks great, a few tweaks, but nothing earth shattering.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Yeah, I really liked the um the 80. What is it? Um that what's that shaft that I was just telling you about?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

F I, I believe. Yeah, the A D um FI from graphite design.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

As Chuck calls it the C foam shaft.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Yeah, it was a C foam color. It was really cool looking. Um I kind of liked that it had a bit of a little kick at the end at the bottom rather than the ventus black that felt a little boardy to me.

Testing The New Titleist Driver

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Um that makes sense to me because like the ventus black is very stiff all the way through and has a very stiff, stiff tip. Uh the thing that I'm the thing that always interests me when you talk to people and get their feedback on what they felt is when you look at the profile of the C foam or the ADFI graphite design shaft, it's a three plus in the butt to three plus mid, and it's a four in the tip. So it actually the stiffness of that shaft is in the tip. So it's very surprising for me to hear you say that it felt to you like it had a little more give in the tip. But once again, that's why you can't always just go off what the marketing department say and what the engineers say, and you kind of have to put it in play a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Yeah, and the guy the fitter kind of said that the tilus fitter kind of said, but then he he was he said, but what we're seeing is a lot of players that want to feel something at the bottom are liking this one over um like the ventus blue or black, if they want to feel a little something in the bottom. So it it was it's probably the best shaft I've ever felt. Um so as you were saying, off air, maybe I'll just go full degenerate mode and just spend money to spend money on a new driver just because I like the shaft. Yeah, they're just buy the shaft and put it in your driver since you like the head. I thought about that too, just just get the ping adapter.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Uh one thing I have learned, and it's it's kind of crazy, but it's it's golf siccos like us that keep this going. But the the one nice thing about shafts is you can buy shafts and resell shafts and not lose a ton of money in the deal. Um really, yeah, it it definitely like I just recently uh did a little clearing out of old stuff on the eBay, uh, which I hate that experience, but did it nonetheless, and it was funny. Uh, I listed really nice set of irons, listed a few drivers, and the thing that really stood out to me of I listed a stealth two, uh a simmax two, and a qi 35, all with I hate to say it this way, but it I don't know how else to say it, but with vintage shafts that don't have the VLO core. So this is the Ventis that's proprietary, the Taylor made doesn't have the VLO core in it. Of those three, the thing that surprised me the most was the Simmax 2 went for the most money. So there's a lot of people out there, I think, that are looking at favorite drivers of yesteryear and maybe moving back into those because they're realizing that the gains that were being promised year over year maybe aren't there. But to kind of finish up that statement about shafts, I had a QI4D, and I understand it's the newest head, right? But I had a core QI4D that I ordered uh and got in. I think I probably got it in a little bit sooner than maybe you know, retail got their hands on it. But I was kind of thinking I was gonna try a 10 and a half degree head, see what I thought of that. I just it it didn't work for me. I'm a I like the way a nine-degree head looks, I like the way that sits at a dress. Yeah, uh the 10 and a half, it just I couldn't get used to looking at that much loft. But I had a real quote unquote ventus with the V Lo core in it, and man, it sold like that. And I mean it's yeah, it's a used driver. I mean, I sold it for uh I think it sold for close to$800, and I mean it flew off the shelf. So anytime I've put shafts on eBay, and I've done that a bunch. I've sold a bunch of shafts on eBay, they sell quick, and I'm not saying you're not gonna lose a little bit of money, so you know, don't take my advice and go out and buy a bunch of shafts and try to resell them to make money, but you can kind of do your experiments and get some different stuff in and then not lose too much money in the whole deal.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Yeah. Uh this was the sim too. What did that one look like?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Black and blue. Black and blue.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

What it was not was it the sim that had the gray top to it?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

It did have, yeah, kind of like uh almost like a matte smoke kind of color to a carbon.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Okay, so it's funny how people respond to different drivers. I think the sim could have been the best driver I I'd ever hit. And I had it for a while, and right before or in the practice round of a big event for me, the whole top blew off.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

I've seen that happen a few times, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah, it just exploded.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah.

unknown 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

But it been a it was like glued, I think, and it it would it would pop.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah, just the whole thing popped off. And um I'd been it been a couple years, so uh you know, I call um I called the honors and it was like, hey, do y'all have anything that like I can, you know, I got this head I can just put back in mine and use for the weekend, and um they didn't have it, and I ended up playing this titleess driver that I didn't love. Um but they didn't send me the Taylor May didn't send the SIM back to me. They sent me the SIM two.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, which was more or less the same thing, but it it the sim two wasn't a lot of people didn't feel like the sim two is as good as the sim.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

No, and that's where that's where I was going is it I got out of that thing so fast. Um just disappointing. Yeah, so I can see how people find things and then they just want to hold it for a minute. Um, but then it gets frustrating with these, you know. Obviously, these companies are wanting to make money, so they're trying to come out with a new thing, new thing, and it doesn't always work for everybody. But it sounds like Tidalist certainly has something going with this GTS.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Um it's one of the more it's one of the more hyped things I've I've heard about in a while. I mean, they're they're really ranting and raving about it. Uh, but it's it's always like people always ask me, you know. I mean, I I work in this industry, I teach people, I teach the kind of people that like to have, you know, the best equipment in their hands. And you know, this time of year, people are always asking me, you know, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? And it's the reality is is it's really hard to tell anymore because most of the people getting their hands on these clubs are your content creators, and content creators want to get the next deal, they want to keep getting the stuff early. And you know, if they say something bad or they don't say like something glowing, they're maybe not going to get it next year before everybody else and be able to make their content. So you hear a lot of good things, you hear a lot of positivity uh for all the new stuff. But it's until you get it in your hands and you hit it for yourself. Once again, like I find it very interesting that you say that you feel like there's some action in that tip on that FI, because just looking at the shaft profile that Graphite Design provides, I I would immediately rule it out. That's not for me, but now I want to go hit it just to kind of see what that does feel like because everybody loads shafts differently, everybody unloads shafts differently. Uh, so once again, you can't always just go off of what the spec sheet says, and you got to kind of hit things and and see how they respond to you.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't you're right, it shouldn't have been one that I would have grabbed. So I was glad that I and I'm not probably as in-depth with the fitting stuff as others are, but I was happy that I had a guy there that was that said, Hey, I know what this says, but here's the feedback I get. Try this shaft.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah. And good on him. You know, I think that's where a really good fitter uh can separate themselves is understanding, you know, and and some of it's looking at somebody swinging golf club, some of it's, you know, just the feedback you get from doing a lot of fittings, but you know, once again, not just taking the the spec sheets and going, well, I need this feel, so these are the shafts that are gonna work for you and ruling out everything else, you know. I think I think that's where, and and look, I'm I'm not the biggest fan. Uh, I don't think people need to spend the amount of money that they're spending money, but you know, that's where a club champion really does do something nice for the golf consumer, is they got everything. So if if you want to go in and hit a lot of different things and and really if you're kind of a brand agnostic kind of guy or girl and want to try some different stuff, you know, there's there's nowhere really better to go for that experience than like a club champion, where they do have everything.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Yeah, you've got to go and and hit it, hit, hit a bunch of stuff. Um my dad was he he was getting a fitting the other day, and um I don't I don't know that they had quite everything. And I said, Nah, you you gotta go somewhere that you can hit it all, like hit, you know, maybe he was looking for a three-wood or something. And I was I was just saying, well, go, you know, you don't have to just hit titleists, like go go try ping, go try Taylor May. Like, because I I wouldn't have ever gone into a a ping driver had I not been at a club that also had all of that to hit. And um, I've been playing a ping for probably four or five years now.

Shafts, Resale Value, And Real Gains

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Um and but my the rest of my bag is kind of mixed and matched of uh different fairway woods and a hybrid, and so yeah, I I don't think you can I think that's where I really see that's where I I I see the problem with a lot of people is they're very they're very brand specific, and they want an all-titless bag or they want an all-tailor-made bag or or whatever, and and the chances that that company makes the best of that thing for you for every single club. I mean, it's just it's pretty, it's a it's a low chance. And that's to your point, I think, you know, going and hitting everything and really giving it a thorough test. You know, the the other problem too is is so many people they and and I think this is maybe this ties into another conversation, but you know, there's a lot of a lot of noise out there right now about Cam Young uh playing a golf ball that likely would conform under the new rules. And they asked him about that because they're like, well, wait a minute, aren't you giving up a bunch of distance? And this and he's like, Well, we all do, like, nobody out here is picking the golf ball that goes the farthest. Right. Like, that's not what we're doing. That's why you don't see the left ash really has have much of a presence on the PGA tour. You're seeing guys pick a golf ball that they can control and is consistent, and most importantly, works across the bag, meaning that you know it fits well with the driver, it fits well with the irons, it fits well with the wedges, the ball is launching in the window that that player needs, it's spinning uh in the window that that player needs, and that's how they're picking their golf ball. But very rarely are they trying to optimize things and make things go the farthest. And I I've seen a lot of the noise on social media, on YouTube to where people are like, well, this doesn't make any sense because I'm trying to find, you know, I go in and do a fitting and I want to find the the clubs that go the absolute farthest. Well, the clubs that go the absolute farthest for you, or the ball that goes the absolute farthest for you, is probably going to be the least stable of the bunch. And what you really want to find is stability and and have some consistency, especially, you know, depending on whatever your abilities are, your handicap is, you want to have something that is going to stay in play. And one thing that I love, uh, I don't like uphill ranges. Like I never have. I'm not a big hitter to begin with, so I'm not a big fan of an uphill range, but wouldn't you know it? The tournament range at Augusta National is uphill. Um not a lot of people know that because probably a lot of people haven't been there, but it is a up slightly uphill range. But man, you you watch the these golf balls fall right from their apex and they like float down to the ground. Like you see and you go, oh, okay. And you understand like spin rates and you understand, like, oh, that really works well for that person. But then you go out to your local Muni and you watch people hit golf balls, and the thing just falls out of the sky, and they're not playing a golf ball that's spinning enough, or they're not fit into a club that's allowing them to create enough spin in the first place. So, you know, I think it's interesting how many people go into these fittings, and whatever club goes the farthest, that's the one they want to put in their bag. But to your point, I think you know, you need to have a place that has a lot of the different stuff that you can hit and compare and try. Uh, you need to work with an experienced fitter who understands the total distance is not the be-all end-all metric. And then you really, if if you get lucky and you find a great fitter, you know, that they should be trying that club in different settings, uh, and and tweaking that thing for you and moving the weights around. And you know, I can't tell you how many times I've had somebody come in that isn't very happy with a driver, and I flip the weights around, and they're like, Oh, this thing's like it's like a whole new driver. This thing's way better. And there's a lot of tricks that you can do with the adjustability in these drivers, and so many people aren't really taking advantage of that, they're just buying it off the rack, leaving it in standard, and wondering why it really isn't optimal for them. But that's where that that really good fitter can step in there and help you dial that thing into the nth degree.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Yeah, you can you can't buy anything. I mean, if you're if you're serious, and I don't think anybody listening to this podcast is going and buying anything off the rack, but you you're waiting for it. I think people do it all the time. Really? I I really do. I think that's such a waste of money because you do want to like the guy today, he was great about like we kind of tweaked the the Hosel setting a little bit. Um and there was a shaft I hit um that the ball speed did go up, but I could I in no way could control where the ball was going. And um I was like, yeah, that's I don't care what the number is telling me speed-wise, that's not I can tell you from me hitting it, it's not the shaft.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Uh I also think that's the advantage of of doing it fitting outside versus doing it fitting inside, and you can actually see the ball flight.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Yeah. And and you gave me a great um a great piece of advice that to pull the trigger in the moment, you better see five mile an hour ball speed difference. And um, and we also I went and and got some numbers off track, man, to where I'd been hitting, I was warm, um, I'd been hitting a few, and I was kind of pulling a really good, like, okay, there was a a that's not one that's hammered, that's not one that's a bad ball. That's a pretty average, like, here's my pretty average gamer numbers. And I had that on my phone to show him of like, hey, here are the numbers that we gotta beat if you're gonna sell this to me. And this is then I think it also helps where like this morning it was 9 a.m. and uh I didn't check the weather. So it was a little a little chilly, like in the 60s, a little windy. So like your body's not moving the same at that point. And um, it took me a few swings to uh to get into the fitting, but I was glad I had that there of like, hey, here's here's what I know I'm doing. Here's kind of what what I see all the time. So when we get to these numbers, then we can start putting your club in my hand and and changing mine out. So I thought that was helpful of kind of having a pretty good baseline that you you had given me that tip of, hey, make sure you've got all this stuff so you know it going in.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah, I mean it's it's easy to get sold. Like we all we're all degenerates, we all want the new thing, uh, especially when it the new thing's got that much hype around it. Yeah, so I I think it is important to know kind of the baseline, know what kind of windows you need to see. You know, are you an 85-foot guy? Are you a hundred-foot guy? Are you a 115-foot guy? You know, where do you like seeing the ball in the air? What what matches your window? Uh, but yeah, I mean, I I think in an ideal world, you're you're getting out there, there's multiple brands, um, there's multiple shafts that maybe don't fit within their fitting matrix. Uh, that's always kind of a toughie because you know, these these companies that they're trying to make a profit, man. And if that if they had every shaft in their matrix, they'd lose so much money, it'd be crazy. So, I mean, they're they're kind of limited in their choices, and we think these shafts are gonna work best with this head. They're trying to kind of hit that 85% of the population, uh, with with what the with the choices that they make. But yeah, I think you want to get outside. You want to, and that's where, you know, there's some there's some amazing fitting facilities, but I I think really, and I get it, you know, it's it's not it's not economically viable for everybody, but you know, I don't I don't think it's the worst thing ever to go to one of these places where they do have everything. Uh you can get outside, you can see the ball flight, and and be prepared when you get there, you know, do your homework, have your numbers, know where you kind of live. Yeah, but I think that all is is super helpful stuff because once again, you know, we're all there. We we we know like it's like walking into the dispensary, and oh, you got all the new stuff. Like, you know, like we're all drug addicts in in a way. So I I think it's very, very helpful in having having you know your preferences, your numbers, and going, okay, like this, this is where I'm at. This is you know where we need to be for me to pull the trigger on this, uh, and then go from there.

How To Do A Smart Fitting

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Uh and I we had a an older member that I know that came up behind me and he was kind of watching. And um I had this bucket of balls. We're we're lucky to have some premium balls that we get to hit on the range there. And um, but I was still kind of peeking through some of them from this this bag uh for this bucket, and um he was like, What are you doing? I said, Well, I don't I don't want to hit a uh red, I don't want to hit an X, and I don't want to hit a kind of beaten up black one. Like, I want to see if I can find a pretty good black one. And he was like, Oh, I hadn't thought about that before. Like, you also need to be get the ball that you hit. Um there's no point because I know I don't play the red, I spin it too much, and there's no point in me doing a fitting and hit this ball that I don't play. I think that's also a big big one is you you really have gotta if you're somewhere that you're not hitting a premium ball or the ball that you play, I think you're leaving a lot on the table. Because it's a it's a big difference for me from the black to the red. And I until I saw that a couple years ago uh compared side by side, I would have been like, oh it's it's the same or it's pretty close to the same. But um it's it's not at all. And it can be different just throughout your bag of of and that's where you talked about these guys aren't just optimizing for distance because I you could throw an AVX in your bag and that's going to be everybody's optimized for distance. But you know when I was looking at at my ball fitting I was spinning I could have maybe used a a fraction more spin with my irons and the red was good for that but it was way too much spin with wedges and not optimal with the driver. And so it was like all right well I the best one for me to be in is the black because I know that my wedges are going to be the right numbers. My scoring clubs the right numbers I'll I'll deal with an iron maybe being a couple hundred RPMs off and just I just know that I need to hit them high um if I really got to stop one. So but I think that's pretty big is make sure you're hitting the ball that you're gonna play.

Play One Ball And Commit

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah I mean it's it's wild to me you know once again you you would think that everybody is is using you know a a ball a brand of ball a a model of ball but so many times you know and and my juniors are the worst about it but you know they don't want to spend their their money that their parents give them on golf balls or whatever so they'll find a few on the golf course that are okay and they throw them in the bag and then you start you know looking through their bag and they've got three or four different you know golf ball models in there and it's like whoa what are you doing? You know it's fine you know look if if you want to be super scientific about this you can go do a ball fitting you can go take a bunch of different brands of golf balls hit them on a track man kind of see how they how they work for you if you don't want to be scientific about this that's that's fine too but pick a ball and play that ball um I can't recommend that enough to people because you know it makes a big big difference it really does and I see people kind of do this all the time and especially in fittings it's you know they go in there's a place here in town that shall remain nameless you know but they have everybody hitting a TP5 in the fitting because it's like kind of a tailor-made uh branded facility and like that TP5 man does not behave and act like a lot of other golf balls it's a five piece golf ball and you're going in there and kind of getting fit and then you go put your Pro V1X in the bag or you know in play and now all of a sudden it's like totally different numbers because it's a totally different ball you got fit off of so you know when it comes to making good decisions for yourself and your golf equipment you know definitely play the same ball like have some kind of it's the one piece of equipment you're gonna use on every single shot is the the golf ball. So you know pick a ball use a ball if you're one of those people and you're like I like cheap fine I don't I don't care play a cheap golf ball go to Walmart buy the precept laddie double dozen you know it doesn't get any cheaper than that but stick to a ball and then you know the ones you find or whatever out there give them to somebody give them to one of the kids or whatever but you know don't do that to yourself to where you're constantly and of of all my least favorite things like my least favorite things like now we get now we're getting going. Of all my least favorite things do not have quote unquote water balls in your bag oh I hit this one when I play across the water that dude you are just going ahead and giving in to the fact that you're gonna hit it into the water stop it stop doing that like it's my absolute number one pet peeve when people say that to me if the if the four dollars you just lost in the water is that consequential you probably don't need to be playing golf.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Like if four dollars means that much we need to pick a different sport you know I don't know how you feel I notice it even if I'm putting I notice a difference in the way the ball comes off my putter if it's a different ball.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

I don't know how you feel it like that there's I mean it's um I've been listening to a lot of the Pete Cowan stuff here lately uh really taking a deep dive into Pete but you know he he's like you know when you hit a putt with one millisecond right like you know exactly how you hit that and it's one of those things man to where we're really trained in on on what we're feeling with the putter. So I couldn't agree with you more I I think you definitely feel a big difference with the putting and of all the things to where you really need your feel to be you know dialed in it's it's with putting and with speed control.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

So I couldn't agree with you more um yeah the only bad thing so I was kind of back and forth this morning am I gonna pull the trigger am I not and then the guy goes yeah we're pre-ordering I said oh pre-ordering no golf wants to hear that when when do you get this and he goes well we think they're gonna ship June 15th and I'm thinking okay so it ships on June 15th if you're in the first batch of shipments and I'm me the golf degenerates thinking I've already I've played three qualifiers in two events by then like I don't I switch a mid season.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Now I don't need your driver like I I if I'm gonna get it I want it right now um so that was kind of disappointing um that's the other thing too you know like going into drivers and like the need for one and I've seen this happen I've seen this happen more than once but I've seen people go get fit for a driver and they're like yeah you can order it it'll be here in a week or two weeks or whatever and and DG's like us we can't wait we got to have it right now and they'll go somewhere that has it in stock and buy it and then they get it and they're like well this isn't anything like the one I got fit like they're the tolerance is they're doing the best they can when it comes to the manufacturing of these things but you know sometimes they're they're not all the same. Yeah you know that's that's really the thing like I've got uh a couple drivers here you know like one's like a play driver one's a backup driver and it's like they're they're they have different personalities like I mean I've got my claim to fame is and this is really getting into the weeds but I've got a for all the real DGs out there I've got a R7 Taylor made R7 TP uh TP quad but it's a 282 head and those are like considered the holy grail of titanium heads and I have two of them uh so I have one that I I go out and play golf with pretty regularly and then I've got one that's a backup in case something ever happens to that because these things are amazing. It's my favorite driver of all time still to this day uh also puts up the same numbers off a center strike as my QI4D did. But I've got two of these 282s I love them to death one one is like I know what it's gonna do every time it's gonna like come out dead straight it's gonna turn over a little left that's what that one likes to do. The other one which is an identical replica same swing weight same lie angle same shaft same everything it literally it comes out and it wants to cut a little bit can't tell you why yeah everything's the same but that's just that's the personality of those two drivers so um that's the other thing you got to kind of look out for and that's the other thing is you got to spend some time and figure this out man like you know I'm not a proponent of go out and hit a million golf balls but at the same time you know when you get a new driver you're gonna need to go out to the range and and probably hit a bucket of balls of just that driver just to start figuring it out a little bit because it feels different. One thing I've learned over the years is golfers don't have a freaking clue where they're hitting it on the face. So you know maybe take some of the spray stuff out there and get an accurate idea of where you're hitting it on the face or if you're fortunate enough to have a track man make sure you have the impact location up but it it takes a while to kind of like sync up with these drivers especially when you get a new one and if you're coming from you know like in your case from a ping to a titleist that's a whole new world yeah that's like going from driving a Kia to driving a Mercedes Benz. And I'm not saying like one's better one's worse but just they're different. Like every time I get into my wife's car to drive it everything's backwards and I'm like what the hell's going on here but that's you got to spend a little bit of time to make it second nature. Yeah I I could appreciate that he um he had the impact zone pulled up as well and so we were looking and it was nearly every shot was about in the same spot so I I could appreciate that we were getting numbers from it wasn't like you're seeing a totally different spot on the face where something's coming off of did you hit any like high on the head no that's a shame you're too good I'm I'm curious because they're they're I was looking because I nobody was more interested in your fitting today than me because like I wanted to hear what you had to say about the GTS because I I trust what you say. But a lot of a lot of the conversation is so there's like a speed ring in the GT series like behind the face and they've turned that ring into like a horseshoe and so now like the high strikes on the head are hot. But the thing is is if you know anything about like bulge and roll and and how gear effect works the hot the the if you hit a driver high towards the crown from the middle still on the middle but like towards the towards the crown there's more loft there and you typically get some gearing to where you get like high launch low spin and those can be bombs so I'm very interested to see like hmm if you could figure out how to hit that thing a little high on the head and we already know the gearing's working for you and it's got that speed ring that's turned into a U to where now that's hot too I I think it could be a little rocket launcher if you hit it a little high on the head.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

I hadn't thought about that. Because I typically don't or haven't since working with you teed up as high as I used to um so I I it could be something. I I just but I also I hit a couple like you were saying when you got to figure out a driver he we'd hit like two or three and he'd say I don't know if that's the one I'd be like well hang on let me just give me two give me a couple of swings with this let me just like feel if I can if I can get the feel for it.

Lead Times And Driver Personalities

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And then I think if you if you if you're pretty in tune with your swing after six seven eight shots you're like okay yeah that probably not it but I do think you're right you need you need five six seven eight swings to to recalibrate to how this thing reacts I recently recently got a set of clubs um they're not don't don't worry they're not going in in play I know the clubs that are going with me to Monterey but uh I had a I have a client of mine who's got a basement that's like my my craziest fantasy like this guy uh probably about 60 years he's probably a little he's like 65 70 years old but he is he like club degenerates he might be near the top of the list he's got everything that's been made for like the last 30 years and a lot of it he only hit a few times and was like yeah I don't like this and it just wound up in his basement but he's got a used golf club store bonanza going on in his basement and he had this set of irons that I was really keen on and they like really tie into my past well and I was like hmm I was like you know I'd be interested in trying this and he was like okay and he brought them for me and and let me have them so I went out the other night and I was I was hitting them at the range and you know it's it's funny like my process and I hadn't really thought about this too much but my process I almost would rather not have the technology uh when I am trying to figure out a golf club and kind of like you know feel it out see what's going on kind of get a feel like oh that that's different or I like that and then it's like now go to the tech yeah and see if the tech confirms some of that stuff. Yeah but I I do like and I've noticed as well I I kind of miss I miss the days of like the not having the launch monitors and having to figure it out and and all that stuff because that's to your point like that's really how you develop that trust and that feel with those golf clubs versus hey track man says this is best for you rock and roll yeah there there's uh one of my best friends Josh Ernest who you've seen before uh he's got this three wood and we just kind of joke we call it auto draw like he he does not hit a draw with any other there's no draw in his swing he hits a draw with this three wood every time I mean like we're shocked when it doesn't and and he will pull it out and it's like he'll put his normal swing on it and it's gonna draw and uh yeah it's just funny how some of that but like if you were putting him on track man he'd be like I don't like this because it's it's not it's like we talked about my fairway woods like I've got a Fujira Ventus red shaft in my fairway woods and I know without a doubt like I don't need to get on track I mean I have but like I don't need to get on track man to tell you it's less than optimal but man do I hit him high and man is it easy to hit them high. And it's like I I love that like yes you know I struggle a bit to flight them down where they need to be I can do it but it's not the easiest of things but man it's once again like understanding like what do you want this club to do and if if I'm hitting a five wood or I'm hitting a three wood or whatever the case may be I'm probably hitting it into a green I almost you've seen me hit driver like I'm not hitting a lot of three woods off the T. So for me it's like I want something that's gonna land soft and being able to hit that thing to the moon I love it. So it's it's once again like kind of understanding like what do you need versus what goes the farthest.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

I think that's another um I think that's a good point uh when you're going into a fitting you need to have an idea of what do I need what what what do I where am I going to use this club? What do I need it for? Um like I last year finally went away from um there was a three hybrid I had in my bag it was like my 235 club but it didn't come out very high it it came out pretty mid launching and um I needed 235 240 club at the honors and at a couple of the places I play but I need it to go up in the air because these greens so firm like I couldn't hold anything like congrats I hit the green but I wasn't holding it with the three hybrid. So I ended up going messing around with some five woods found this five wood I loved it like I could throw it straight up in the air um and it's amazing. The flip side is now I don't have a club that um I almost need like for windy days I need a two iron or something that I can bring way down. And then I would almost just interchange those two because then it's like well I'm I'm never hitting the five wood because it's gonna be too windy. And if I needed a distance like that I'd just hit my three wood. And I think that was another thing is I went to do a three wood fitting as well a year or so ago and I was like hey I don't ever hit this off the T. Like I will bunt a driver before I hit three wood because I like doing that and I feel like I have more control and um so I was like don't make me anything that's a bomber off the T. I want this thing to have a little bit more loft I want it to be up in the air because I'm only hitting it when I'm trying to get somewhere in two um I think that's important. I had that conversation with my dad he was going for fitting and he was talking to me I was like well where do you hit that club like why are you wanting that distance where are you hitting that club? What are you doing it for? So I think you've also got to go and have that before you get into the fitting of okay what am I missing where am I using this club? I don't know what you think about that but I I think you got to have some thoughts there.

Build A Bag Around Real Needs

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Yeah for sure sorry I had to step away and grab something so friend of the show Mr. Dan Campbell dentist extraordinaire highly recommended um another D gen um did he fit your teeth he did club junkie guy um gave me one of these yesterday so if you're watching on YouTube it's a little blur oh now it's back it's it's a Cleveland 588 original oh the wedge you're talking about yeah so like Dan didn't hit this very many times it's pretty perfect but it is a 64 degree wedge wow 64 now I'm not saying everybody should run out and get a 64 degree wedge I think for most people it's kind of useless but I'll tell you what there's a lot of people out there who would benefit more from this than they would a three wood. And I think that where people really go wrong and I wouldn't say this about your dad per se but I think a lot of people a three wood is a a worthless club. They don't hit it high enough they don't hit it far enough and they would be way happier with starting with their longest wood like a five or a seven wood something they get up in the air and get it to go somewhere. So the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with is they're they're convinced they need a driver they need a three wood and then wherever they go from there they go from there. But people just have massive gaps and I think there's a lot of people who have a three wood in the bag that are like you and they never ever hit it off the T ever. And it's like okay well why don't they hit it off the T well they probably don't hit it that well off the T or they don't hit it far enough or they hit it just as crooked as their driver and it's like okay well maybe we have a conversation about a mini driver. Maybe we have a a conversation about not having that long fairway wood that we don't hit that well in the bag at all and maybe we start with like a five wood or a seven wood uh and then you know it's like we got a you know for for the older people that are listening you know start with like a five wood or a a six wood and have like a nine wood with it or something like that. Something that's going to allow you to get the ball up in the air. But once again understand what your needs are like hey man I got this three wood in my bag and I never hit it because I hate it. Okay why is it in the bag? Why is it in the bag? Yeah it just doesn't make any sense so I think you know those people would benefit more from clearing out some of the top of the bag of the clubs that they don't use give them a wedge that's got a bunch of loft on it and now it's like keep that face square and just chip with that when you need to throw one up a little bit. Yeah you're not gonna hit it for distance but once again that's a whole other problem is so many people like I was messing around with this uh 64 degree wedge the other day when I was practicing and it's it's a dumb club like I would only use it around the greens or if I was like super handcuffed. I'm never going to try to hit it very far and sure as could be a guy came up and was talking to me and he saw what I was using he's like oh that's you don't see many of those and I I I had one of those but I couldn't hit it far enough why are you trying to hit it anywhere? Like it's just uh one of those clubs for around the green but in all honesty it's uh my head is spinning and I'm thinking to myself like hmm I wouldn't mind the to have this when I when we're on our little trip in case I get you know something kind of crazy going on. But at the same time I also know that I'm gonna need the top end of my bag because we got some real long par threes and two are coming to mind to where I'm probably gonna have to smoke a three wood at it if not my driver.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Yeah I mean I I and I uh I had to go through kind of the checking my ego thing uh probably three or four years ago I just threw I was like I had this four iron in my bag that I it had the right gapping to it but I could never get the thing up in the air enough to ever hold anything that I was trying to hit it into. And I've it I've got this like four hybrid, it's probably closer to maybe like a seven wood. It's like my 225-ish club, but I can throw it up in the air. And um that was something it was like I if I had a 215 shot, I was like, Well, I I hope that pins at the back because I I gonna have to land something short and run it to it because I won't hit anything at it because I can't hold it.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Well, I mean, this is the other problem, too, right? Is a few years back when you know it, it used to be you bought a set of irons, and the set of irons had a price for the set, you know, it was whatever 1200 bucks, five through pitching wedge or four through pitching wedge or whatever it was. Now they're selling it by the stick, right? And the reason they're selling it by the stick is, and I saw this like really cool video the other day uh that one of the titless fitters had made who does a lot of the tour fittings, and he was saying something like 65, 75. I can't remember the exact number. So if somebody remembers seeing this video and I'm wrong, I apologize. But it was a high number of the tour players that have a mixed bag, meaning that you know, maybe they have some blades or maybe they have some CDs or something like that in the short irons, but they get up to that four iron, that five iron. To your point, they can't hit the C B or the MB high enough to make that a functional club for them. So now they've got like maybe a T150 or a 250 or something like that. I mean, you look at Cam Young's bag, he hits it plenty hard, but he's got some quote unquote game improvement hybrids and fairway woods in the bag because he hits them higher, and and like that's what he needs that club to do. And it's not it's not about like how cool is your bag, and oh, I got a I got a blade four iron. Look at this. Like, if you can't hit it high enough or you can't hit it far enough, what's the point?

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Yeah. Well, my and my last thing on the fitting piece with the how long the lead time is on it. Um it would have had to have had some serious ball speed to it for me to purchase on the spot and then wait on it after you know, at that point, you're kind of mid-season, and now you're talking about putting a new tool in the bag that may take you some time under pressure to get used to, even if it is better for you, it still may take you some time.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

But um Yeah, I think they missed the window or uh missed timed the window a little bit with it.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

Yeah, I don't know what they're like. Why is the thing not available now? I couldn't figure when the guy said that I I was just scratching my head.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

I don't think they it seem some something doesn't quite seem right with with this release uh with titles this year. It just it's coming out later, it's very disruptive. You know, I I mean I I said this to you when they did it, but what was it a month ago, two months ago? Uh Title List slashed the prices on all the GTs. And yeah, so all the all the GT stuff is 200 bucks off, has been for a couple months. So the funny thing was, is this is the window where the QI4D was coming out, where the new Callaway was coming out, where the new Cobra was coming out. And Titleist is like, well, we don't think you could like they're basically saying you can't beat us, like we're not worried that you're gonna have something that much better. And oh, by the way, our offering is$200 cheaper than this offering, and I think it was brilliant. I think it's the the smartest thing I've seen an OEM club company do in years to where they were like, Hey, we know that we have this product, it's really hot, it's doing really well. Uh, people love this thing, it's doing really well at the tour level. But hey, you can get one of these for$200 less than one of these that has no track record at all. So it's it's kind of interesting they did that, and then this GTS kind of appears out of nowhere, and there were rumblings about it, but it just seems like it's a little something's a little amiss. I don't know if titleist needs to hit some numbers this year or whatever the case may be, business-wise. Uh, but it almost seems like this driver came out early, is what I think. I think the GT could have gone another year. Um, they could have left it at the discount for a while, but it it's something seems a little amiss with this launch with the GTS.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

Yeah, I I mean I probably would have pulled the trigger if they said, Yeah, it ships tomorrow. And then I probably would have pulled the trigger, but it was not not overperforming what I had, and so far out, it was like, uh, I don't know. Maybe I can order it later if I want.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Um you'll be on fairway jockey later ordering the shaft, I have no doubt.

The PGA Should Show More Courses

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Yeah, that now that I did think about. I was like, all right, well, the shaft I can get right now. Um but let's uh switch gears for just a second. I've got the the PGA kind of going in the background, and um I find it interesting. So one and maybe I'm in the minority.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

By the way, that golf course looks great on TV.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

Yeah, it does, and that's where I'm going, is I love when they go to golf courses that we don't get to see very often. And um, like miss me with the dag um quail hollow last year. Like, I see quail every year, and every year I see it for the truest or whatever it is, and I think the same thing, like it it doesn't, it's not it doesn't get me excited.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Um I mean, there's a lot of those Tory is that way.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah, doesn't get me excited, and but then you know, you've got the country club at Brookline, you've got Aranamink, you've you've got these, we're about to see uh Shinekock for U.S. Open. I know that they that's gonna be great. Yeah. Um, and when we get there, I've got an awesome story from when I played it last year um of how I finished. It was really, really cool.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Um what was uh was the U.S. Open uh am I getting this right? Was it at San Francisco Golf Club?

SPEAKER_03 50:12

No, it was at um Harding Park.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

No, I don't think it was that one. Maybe it was at Olympic. Was the US Open at Olympic? Well the AM was, but they've had opens at Olympic. The one that um what's his name won? Only Major E one. Nice guy, blonde, doesn't hit it very far, title this guy for years. Gosh darn it. You're not talking about Webb Simpson, are you? Yeah, I am talking about Webb Simpson. Good call. Okay. The one Web won. Was that an Olympic? It could have been that's like another one. Like that's that course is awesome on TV. Makes you excited.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

Uh, you know, we're gonna get Marion again here soon. But like they just flashed uh and I know they gotta go there, but they just flashed Frisco, and I'm just thinking, I you go to these places that I don't get to see. Shinnecock, um, you know, I know they're gonna go back. I know they're going back to Shinnnecock, I know they're going back to Oakmont. Um, but like I don't want to see Pebble as a US, like I don't want to see it as a major. I already see it every year. I want to see some. Am I in the minority with that? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

I mean I I can see Pebble because you have the backdrop of the ocean there. Um, like that kind of makes sense. It's iconic, but I'm with you. Like, I think I think for sure there's so many, like, we were talking about this the other day when we were talking about our upcoming trip, but there's like a million great golf courses in the world, like there's so many. I know there's not a million, so don't beat me up in the comments, but like there's so many good golf courses in the world, and why we keep like just going back to the same place, the same place, the same. And I get it. There's commercial reasons behind it, the infrastructure, yeah. I I totally I get that, but man, it's and the one thing that I hate is so much of like the the really amazing golf courses. It's as much as you might not like this, there's an abundance of them in like New York area, like there's a ton there in the Northeast, there's a ton out there on the West Coast. But the thing that golf kind of realizes is commercially, they don't do all that well in the major markets, they do way better in the middle to small markets where they're the only game in town, and it just feels like so much of the choice. And the thing is, is like if you're the PGA and you're gonna keep your spot in May, like don't go to the Midwest where the weather sucks. Like, don't don't do it, man. Like, it's gonna rain, it's gonna be cold, you know, it's gonna be like they're in sweaters today, it's gonna be 90 over the weekend. Like, go somewhere where the weather's gonna be good. Like, that's the thing that really bugs me is having these majors in the Midwest to where the weather is such a big factor.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Yeah, yeah. I I it's the same as if I'm watching, it's my thing with NFL teams when we get to the playoffs and somebody's got to go outside and the weather's terrible. And and now the weather is playing the largest factor in determining two of the best teams who's going on and and who's going home. And I hate that. Like, I would much rather go play this in the dome. I don't want the weather to impact this. Now I I'm good with like, hey, if the wind picks up, but I don't want to watch these guys, you know, have to deal with the cold and the uh I just it's great TV, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

For me, is and I'm uh I'm not nearly as big of a fan of of football as you are, but you know, it's great TV to see one of these Blizzard games, and I I would love to be at one because I just think that looks so freaking cool. But at to your point, like when the stakes are high and we're in the playoffs, like okay, I'm done with the novelty. Like, I want to see the best teams perform the best, and I want to see the best team come out on top, not because you know, one team's used to playing in this and the like seeing LA play in snow, like it's obvious there's a huge disadvantage there, there for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Um I'm glad I'm not in the minority of wanting to see some different courses. Uh I mean, I sat and watched. Um I love uh I really enjoy the live from show when they go to the majors, and um I I really like the back and forth between uh Brandle and uh Paul McGinley. Paul McGinley. I I really like their opinions and their their dialogue with each other, and um, but I always think that they do a good job of talking about the golf course. And I sat and watched uh Gil Hance talk about every hole on this flyover. I mean, and I sat and watched it because I I don't know, I've not played this golf course, I don't see this golf course a ton. So I sat and was like, oh wow, cool, cool spot. Um I like more of that. And um I think you're seeing today the number, I mean, three under is the lowest right now. They're their three under is the lowest, and this isn't considered a not long, not a long golf course. I mean it's par 70.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

It's like 7,300 yards in par 70, which is long, but it's not like US Open long.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

No, no.

Firm Greens Make Wedge Play Matter

SPEAKER_01 55:43

I mean, you know, you're watching, you're seeing a lot of guys hit wedges, and I this goes back to like Marion, though, when they had the last open there, and everybody's like, oh my god, these guys are gonna boat race this place, and the winning score in a U.S. open is gonna be 25 under par. Dude, they got killed out there. Yeah, like they got rough, like the guys looked bad there, honestly. Like the tour players did not come out of that situation looking all that great.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

Because I I think if you can now it's it is weather dependent, but I think if you can get these greens like we're seeing them today, if they can get firm and fast on a Ross nonetheless, which has crazy undrelating greens, yes, and I think that's what I'm uh that's what I'm enjoying seeing. And I think you and I talked about it way back uh when Riviera was going on. That I don't really care to see these guys hit four and five irons. Like that's not I really enjoy watching who is talented with a wedge in their hand. Well, I want to see how are you accessing a pin? How are you getting something in a scoring position? And I think this has been a really interesting um test today. I mean, Bryson's six over. I mean, you know, if you're if you're thinking that distance is is the uh driver of this, I'm they're pulling it up right now. You you've got three under is the lowest, and everybody at three is in, they've got a couple at two, and and uh Scotty's at three still playing. But uh I I would like to see more like this that you get some pretty wild greens, you get them fast, you get them firm.

SPEAKER_01 57:33

Um it's the only defense there is, yeah, other than trees. Yeah, right. And the trees are the trees, right? So the thing I I think that I've picked up on from the little bit of coverage that I've watched, uh, and a little bit of the stuff leading up to this was you know, the trees at Aranam Inc. are are some of them are in play, of course, but a lot of them are there to like frame holes, but they're not really in play. And at the end of the day, if if you're if you're gonna realize that these are the best players, the best putters in the world, if you give them relatively flat greens with perfect surfaces, they're just gonna fill the bucket up all day long. Yeah, so to your point, like give me some crazy greens, give me some freaking rough, man. Like, give me some deep, heavy rough. I I don't know who it was, and I apologize. I I told myself to remember because I was gonna talk about it later. But I watched somebody hit it out of the left rough today with like a seven iron in their hands, and the ball stopped, like it hit the green and just stopped. And it's like, give me some of the the winged foot rough to where there's just not a lot you can do with it, and give me crazy greens, give me fun house greens, and that's where uh you know they're like, Well, you can't design a golf course for these guys. Yes, you can make it super freaking rough and make the greens crazy, and you will start seeing that the scores come down, but they're not, you know, they're all they're all hitting the panic button because they're gonna find out that this ball rollback thing ain't gonna do anything.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

It's it's not, and and we don't need to get into the ball rollback, like everybody's having that conversation. Uh, but I'm with you. I love seeing these greens and these guys navigate them. Um, I think that's what makes Augusta what it is because of the undulation and um what these guys have to do. But I I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

It's two things at Augusta, right? They don't have rough, right? Rough. They don't have rough, but it's they you never have a flat lie and you've got crazy greens. Yeah. Um that's what makes the place.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed watching last year when they moved the truest to Philly Cricket Club, and nobody really tore that place up. Um, I mean, they're under par. It's a shorter golf course, they're gonna be under par, but it was fun watching these guys have to navigate stuff. And and today, um, and this is where I'm ultimately going. I was gonna ask you questions about wedge play with courses like this, but I watched um I watched John Rom hole out, which was really cool. But two holes before, he does not control his spin to this back pin. And I bet he hit 50 feet into the green, and his next shot was from 10 feet short of the green.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Is that the one he chunked and then threw it close? Or didn't chunk it, but left brought it back to his feet.

Fairway Wedges Without Ripping Back

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

Yeah, that was it like it hit. Yeah, it probably hit 10 feet from the cup, and it just came all the way back. And um I'd much rather watch that. That's me. I don't know what other people think. Um and I like I don't mind seeing a shorter golf course and getting these things so firm and fast and having slope to them that even with a wedge in your hand from the rough, like there's a lot of calculation that's going into what are we doing with it? Um, and I think it's great because now you've kind of got these greens that really have quadrants to them, that all these guys are saying, Hey, if you really want to have a good chance, you gotta be in the right quadrant. So now you're you're coming out of the rough with a wedge, and if you aren't in the right quadrant, there's no guarantee of a two-putton. We're seeing it all day today with how some of these guys are are playing. Um and I guess one of my questions was we're seeing the importance of wedge play. Um could you could you talk a little bit about um let's just start with the with the fairway lie and let's go with that one that Rom had where I watched speet right in front of him. You could tell he had a little off speed to it, like wasn't going at it, and you saw that nice like hit, jump forward and stop. Um if if you're trying to hit your wedges, what would you say setup wise and thought-wise, of we're trying to control our spin, we need to make sure this ball doesn't rip back. What are some things you're telling your guys to do in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

Grab the next wedge and hit it easy, like take some ops out of the equation. And and yeah, I mean, anytime like you take the same wedge, like say it's your sand wedge, you put a full swing on it, the spin rate's gonna be higher than if you hit it three quarters. You know, so so many people just absolutely try to pound wedges. And the really good guys with wedges, man, they never pound a wedge. And I I mean, I you'll see it when we play, uh, and you've seen it a little bit already, but it's like I'll have 50, 60 yards into a hole, and you know, I'll literally be hitting a sand wedge. And people are like, Well, why aren't you hitting your 58 or your 60? Well, because if I hit the 58 or 60, I gotta hit it, you know, marginally harder to get it to go that distance, and now it has more spin and it goes up in the air, and there's a lot of unpredictability it brings into the equation. So, you know, a lot of a lot of times, man, you've you've got to learn, and I think they do a terrible job on TV. They talk about dead hands and all this stuff. No, it's it's learning how to not try to hammer that thing and try to hit it hard. It's it's more trying to learn how to kind of chip it, you know, from 60, 70, 80 yards if you're not trying to spin it. If you're trying to spin it, then yeah, you know, hit it hard, uh, and go ahead and and go after it a bit. But if you're trying to really manage it, if you're trying to flight it, if you're trying to take some of the spin off of it, it's grab the grab the next wedge and hit it a lot easier.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

Um, and if you are trying to spin one, um I know that uh the shot that Neil Shipley hit in the USM on 17, I believe it was, uh last year, where he flew this wedge a good I don't know, 15 yards past the pin. And but he knew when he clips this thing, it is and it was that famous shot that I mean he didn't he didn't win the am, but he was the one on TV because they kept showing this shot of like throwing it past and zipping it. So yeah, if you play for some spin, you put a more back in the stance, hit it hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

You gotta have something to help. So you need a little backstop, or you need you know, you need the green kind of angled back at you a bit. Uh, but if you have those conditions, then yeah, you can you can definitely use that to your advantage. And that's you better throw it past it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:49

You better not play for that front number and it come.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Yeah, like I mean, I watch people make bad decisions with wedges all the time, and they'll have a front pin, and I'll be like, okay, what are we doing? They're like, Yeah, I'm gonna land it just short and kind of bump it up into it. What are you talking about? Like that that is not gonna work very often. Like, we we gotta try to find a way to get this to land at the hole and stop, worst case. And best case is we want to like build in a little buffer, we want to fly it three, four, five yards past the hole and and spin it back if we can, but you never want to be with that front pin, like trying to land one in there, like just short of it, or land it into the upslope if there happens to be one, and trying to like get it close that way. That's that's how you miss greens.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Yeah, I've I've made that mistake, and you you hit the one that's got some spin, and you miss it a fraction, and you hit the fringe, and you could be playing one of those Bermuda courses, and it grabs in the fringe and it does not let it go, or it goes off, it hits and rips from that stuff, too, and you're just like.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

I feel like an idiot. Um, you gotta be an idiot to play front numbers. Like you just have to be. Like, in my opinion, and and I'm sure that you know, if we had Scott Fawcett on from Decade Golf, he'd probably tell me I'm stupid, but that's okay. I just I don't think you're ever playing a front number. You know, it's if if you're if you have a pen that's tucked on the front of the green, you know, you're playing for that middle number, and you know, you're just gonna have to make your peace with putting from 15 to 20 feet. I just don't think you can play for that front number though, because then it's it's hard, it's really hard to hit that green because it requires a perfect shot, and you know how I feel about perfect shots. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

Uh I think um I like that you don't have a whole lot of technical things to do to try and take the spin off.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Um I mean the thing that kills me, man, is like I just don't I just don't see people like I practice at public places. And A, I don't see anybody hit wedges when they practice. And B, if they do, it's like the first couple swings they make, they hit a couple sand wedges and then they like jump to a seven iron or whatever. But it's like, man, like when's the last time you went out and just hit a whole bucket of balls with your wedges and like tried to alter the trajectory and try to alter the spin rate and try like dude, that's the stuff you're gonna have to do on the golf course if you if you have any ability or any talent, and you just don't see people do that at all. So I think getting people out there and and learning some of that nuance is is huge. But in terms of you know, hey, I want to like we've talked about this. You know, you were asking about drawing and fading shots, and I'm like, well, we do it with our alignments, we don't do it with our swing. You know, you don't really want to be messing with your golf swing or your technique a whole hell of a lot when you're hitting this golf ball. Now, you might alter your technique quite a bit if you get into short game situations, but when it comes to like hitting the golf ball more than 40-50 yards, you know, the technique is kind of the technique, it's how we go about changing the alignments to get the ball to do what we need it to do. Um, which ball position I consider to be part of the alignment system.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:10

Yeah. Um, I think uh one thing that I've done in my short game practices that I don't see a lot of people doing either. I will go over to maybe a low spot and and the greens kind of elevated, and I'll go over there and I'll figure out, and just over the years I've I've been able to kind of narrow down. But there can be plenty of shots where you'd have to hit a perfect high floaty to get this thing to be close to a pin. Maybe you're short-sighted. Um and I've I've been over there and I'll find like, okay, what what gets through that this pitch? Is it pitching wedge? Is it 50? Do I need to go nine? Like, I have a pretty good feel when I get in situations of, and I don't people are always asking me when I pull it off, how how'd you like what'd you hit there? Like I I'll just hit my pitching wedge because I know it has no spin on it with the way I hit it, and it just bumps right up the hill. And I know that I'm gonna kill the speed into the hill with that shot. I I think that's another one you gotta I would encourage people to go and and mess around with because I think too many people get short-sighted and they and it's like, oh, I gotta hit this flop. Well, you can, but that's such a hard shot with as much spin and as much speed as you're gonna have to have.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

And it's soft. It's uh you're in a low spot, so it's guaranteed to be soft.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:40

Yeah, there's there's plenty of spots that I'm like, this lie just doesn't scream.

Wedge Play From Rough And Flyers

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

I was out there the other night putting from off the green, and somebody came up to me and they're like, What are you doing? And I'm like, putting off the green, like practicing, and they're like, like they just couldn't compute that anybody would practice that. But knowing where we're going, uh, and knowing that the greens are going to be a bit crazy and there's some big slopes out there, you know, there's just times, man, to where I'm I am not afraid, and and you saw it, like I'm not afraid to chip the golf ball. But at the same time, like there's just spots you get to to where even if you're off the green a good little ways, you might have to putt this thing. Like it's there's just not a way. I'm not saying you can't hit the perfect one and and get that wedge close to the hole, but at the same time, like if you could putt it and you've got some experience with that and some feel for that, like that might be the easiest way to get this thing close to the hole, or at least minimize the risk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:40

Um, let's go to the rough. If we've got a wedge in the rough, um I always think these there can be some nuance to this because it is so lie dependent on where the ball is going to make contact with the face. And even to the point of let's say you're in the rough and your ball hasn't gone down, but it's sitting up. I think that is a a a tough one too. And you have to get it in your head that that lie is not gonna compress, so the ball speed's going down. You're also because it's sitting up, there's a good chance that that club is gonna go further under the ball than it normally does. It's higher on the face, so now there's less spin and less speed. So, you know, it can really throw all this off, but why don't you walk us through maybe you know, ball in the rough?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

Well, that lie you're talking about where the ball's teed up, yeah, you know, we call those sweepers. So you're not trying to hit the ground. Like I tell people to pretend there's a damn root underneath the ball and try to miss it. So, you know, to your point, if if you go down, if that ball is teed up, let's say an inch from the ground, actual ground where it's firm, you know, and you hit the ground, you're gonna hit it high on the head, it's going nowhere. So, you know, learning how to kind of make that sweeping motion to where we're not trying to hit the ground, we're we're trying to pick it kind of off that lie. I think that's huge. Uh, I think that's another shot that you just don't see people practice very often or even have a concept for. But yeah, you know, it's once again, it's experience and getting out there and hitting shots out of the long grass and getting good at reading lies. And I think that's that was probably the of all the things that we worked on that I thought I shared the most information with you on when I was down at the honors with you. It's it's hey, look at this lie and tell me what you think it's gonna do. Now hit the shot and see if it does what you think it's gonna do, and just like learning how to read lies. But the minute you start getting grass in between the club face and the ball, you're losing surface friction or friction in general, and you're just not gonna create that much spin. And so often you see people chipping out of the rough and they play it like it's gonna land like a normal like chip shot or pitch shot. And the reality is that even if you do get it to land on the spot that you think it needs to land on, it's gonna roll out farther than you're expecting because of the loss of friction. So it's really, really important that we get people to kind of understand, like, oh, this is in the rough, I'm gonna get some grass in between the club face and the and the ball. And this ball, you know, I'm it might not fly too bad, it might fly pretty good. I might be able to get plenty of club on it to get it to go the distance I need it to go. But what's it gonna do when it hits the green? Is it gonna try to catch or is it gonna try to release? And more than likely, if there's grass between the ball and the club face, it's gonna try to release. So you got to kind of learn how to gear down a little bit, land that a little bit shorter or what have you. But you know, the one thing that generally you've got to kind of think about is when you get that ball in the rough, you better start increasing the land angle, which means you're probably gonna have to hit it a little higher than you want. So instead of hitting that kind of stock flight, you know, little pitch or chip shot that you're used to, we're probably trying to land get this a little higher in the air to get it to land a little bit softer, which is gonna get us to get that golf ball to stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:25

Do you see? Um let's say you've got the ball that now sits down in the rough. Let's say we've got a hundred yards, pretty middle pin. Are you um are you changing how you're coming into that shot? Like walk us through what's the easiest way to get closer and get the ball back in your stance. Really? Okay, so we're gonna stand closer, ball back. Are you thinking and and the closer is automatically going to get the swing more upright?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:04

So you are thinking we got to be more upright to get this thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Grabbing another club.

unknown 1:15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

Like if if I've if I got a hundred yards, like a hundred yards, as hard as I want to hit a sand wedge is about a hundred yards. But I'm never hitting a sand wedge in that situation. I'm gonna grab the gap, I'm gonna choke down about three quarters, I'm gonna get closer to the ball, I'm gonna move it back in my stance, and I'm gonna do my best to just make sure I keep it straight.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:29

One thing I see out of the rough with mid-irons or longer clubs is that there's that for the right-hander tendency for that rough to want to grab that hossle and really shut that face down. Um, do you think that's the same with wedges, or do you think they get through a little easier? Should I be protecting from that, or do you think because you've got the ball back, you've kind of offset?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

Yeah, I I think there's definitely always that tendency that the the face wants to shut, but I think a lot of that just comes from the the club coming in too shallow, and then it kind of gets it gets slowing down, right? It doesn't necessarily get stuck, but it starts slowing down, and then that face is rotating like a mother, and then we get the face shut, which starts at left. And I know the commentators like to talk about the grass grabbing the hossle. I just think it's we get it into the grass too soon, and then it just starts getting slowed down, and and the body doesn't slow down to match, and then we get a face that's closing on us. So I definitely like the ball back, get a little closer and try to get into the grass as late as you can.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:41

Yeah, you so it goes back to just be closer to it so that we kind of alleviate some of the shallowness.

Monterey Countdown And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_01 1:16:48

Now, don't get me wrong, if there's like a penalty area or water or something to the left, then you know, you you have to do your due diligence there and have to go, hey, you know, when you're when you're doing the math, it's like, yeah, I want to aim at this pen because I've only got a hundred yards, but at the same time, like I've got to build in a little buffer in case this comes out a little left. So you're you know, maybe aiming that. And and like I said on our last episode or the one before, you know, we're generally not aiming at pens to begin with, but we're probably gonna put in another 10-foot buffer uh aiming to the right to protect ourselves from that one that gets pulled left if there's like a penalty area or water over there.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:27

Um well, we might be close to wrapping up. I thought we could just quickly hit the the trip coming up. Um I'm pretty uh I'm pretty excited. I know um uh you might be pretty excited. I am all the way excited. You are you've called I'll I'll tell everybody you have called me nearly every morning this week with a countdown. Um I it's true. I think I think because the the trip came up so quickly, it hasn't really thank God.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

I can't I can't wait. Like, don't delay me. Like, I can't make it.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:08

Uh I know I we would have been having 30-day countdowns had you had this thing been pushed out. So it I guess it hasn't like struck me, struck me yet that um we're going. It will when I get on the flight. Um because I've got to rush off my flight to go get our rental car before the place closes. Um but uh yeah, looking forward to some awesome golf. Um I'm looking forward to uh I I hope that sounds like we're gonna have some time to practice on an unbelievable practice facility um that overlooks the ocean.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

So we I think you get to practice. I think I'm gonna my my skills are gonna be requested.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:50

Well, you may be doing that's where I was going. Is you're gonna we might get some really good content for the pod with some practice things and and some things we're we're working on or looking at uh between Ken and myself. And um I'm looking forward to doing a little deep dive with you on some tournament prep coming up and uh some courses I'm playing and um getting me ready for some qualifiers and getting your thoughts and um I'm just geek, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:22

Like it's it's so how do I want to say this? You're you have played a lot of nice golf courses, like you you go on a lot of golf trips, you and your buddies, you guys really you do it up and you do it well.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:39

My 55-year-old best friends, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:42

Like it's it's it's all like, and I I don't mean to come off as saying like you know you don't appreciate that. You do like you're you're very aware of it as well. But for me, just being this kid that grew up in Kentucky and like a public golf kid, like getting to go and do some of these things, man. I mean, it it's it's not lost on me that so many people would give their left arm to have some of these experiences that I've had and getting ready to have. And and I'm just super thankful for you know, you first and foremost for even introducing me to any of these people. But then, you know, Ken is rolling out the red carpet and super gracious and and hosting us out there. But it's just man, like you're not gonna have you're just not gonna have many days on this planet that you look forward to more than what we're looking forward to. And it's just I really like to, you know, I I like to uh to be prepared for them. I like to to you know make sure that you you treat everybody well, make sure you take care of the property. Um but yeah, man, like there's not there's not very many events in my life that I've put this much thought and effort into getting ready, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:52

Um it's gonna be great. You know, Josh had a thought for us. Um talked to him earlier today. He said, Have you thought about time dependent, like walking over to try and do some twilight round at Pebble or something? I said, you know, I haven't thought about that, but it's if we're if we're finished with golf and not doing anything, yeah, it's probably worth like walking over to one of these places and seeing you you got an opening.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:22

Chuck Chuck recently found out that this is his tryouts for our one of our Scotland trips to where we go and just absolutely golf our brains out.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:30

So you don't have to you don't have to worry about me ever saying it's too much golf.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:35

So and that's what I love about you. That's probably your number one well, next to your hair, that's your most redeeming feature. Is that I don't think you're ever gonna complain about too much golf.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

Yeah, it's uh it's like, oh, you want to go play another? Yeah, like you know, just give me some food, I'll be ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:50

Um I've been what else are we gonna do? Go hang out at the hotel? Like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, I'm not I'm not here to maybe we can get some headlamps and then we can and get a lot of golf in. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:03

I think it you know, I think it's definitely worth trying to play the hay um at Pebble that low cool par three. Um and then we'll find a spot to do the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:15

Um live from Cyprus.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

Live from so I guess we will do that. So it's it's uh Thursday, I'm leaving Saturday evening, you're leaving Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

Um it's right around the corner, man. It is it is right around the corner. I'm geeked.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:36

Um I'm excited. Uh not um not too many times you you get to go with with uh really, really close friends and experience, and um it's fun to play really great places. I've played Monterey, uh, but I've not played Cyprus. And to get to do it with somebody that like yourself that hasn't gotten to play it, and you get to kind of share that excitement. It's like you're getting to do it again for the first time. There's nothing better than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:10

Um I agree. We talked about that. Like the people that I've been able to to kind of go and and show around Augusta for the first time, it it is. It's like you get to have that first experience that you got to have all over again, but it's it's even better this time because you're aware that it's happening. You know, the I remember the first time walking into Augusta, uh, I went in through Northgate the very first time I was there in 2018. And just like you're you're kind of walking on that trail and you get to the tournament practicer, and you're just like, whoa, like this is different. Like this isn't this isn't like what you normally see, like this is totally different.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:46

Uh I think it's it's so much fun doing it with someone that is like-minded with golf that we like we will appreciate every little detail, and we're soaking it all up, and we're able to sit down afterwards and recount favorite holes or whatever. And but it it's one of the it's the it it's the type of trips that and it's what golf does, it brings no matter what your political backgrounds, religious backgrounds, white, black, whatever. Like if you love golf, there's nothing like a golf trip with your friends, and it's all about having that experience together. Um agreed.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

Yeah, it's I mean, it's I've never seen a better example of what golf can do for people than when I was over in Scotland, and you just kind of see how these golf courses serve as a community center. And you know, I I think golf can be a great thing, but if nothing else, it's you know, it's it's much easier to have conversations with people when you have shared interest. And I think for you know, in Scotland's case, with the golf course kind of being the thing that everybody's into, it's like you can go there, play golf together and and have these conversations and and respect one another because you have this shared love. Like it doesn't, I think here uh in the country in this country, it's like, well, you're this, so you're all the way over there, and you're all the we have nothing in common. No, no, people have plenty of things in common. It's just golf does a really nice job of of reminding us that we all love golf and we're very fortunate to be here and and you can have conversations, and it just feels it makes the human experience very real, I feel like.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:32

Yeah, yeah. I I have a feeling we're we'll both have uh attitudes of of being very grateful when we step out onto the golf courses this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:44

But uh we're if we don't, we need we need a serious talking too. Like you're not like it doesn't matter. Like, that's the thing I love about this, though, is the the the courses are gonna be great, the people I'm with are gonna be great, and it's it's one of those things to where there's not many better examples of you're not gonna be unhappy today. Like, I don't care how bad of a shot you hit, like this isn't the place where you get frumpy and mad at yourself. Like it's enjoy it, soak it in, uh, don't waste time being negative. Like just play golf, hit it again, go find it. Hopefully, it's not in the ocean. Go find it and like play golf. Yeah, I think it's gonna be great. I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:25

And I'm hopeful um my cousin uh Jack, he plays for the San Jose Quakes. I'm hoping he joins us at uh Pasa. I don't know what his um they're in the middle of their season, so I don't know what his schedule is, but he would he'd love to join us. Hopefully we get to see him. But um we're looking forward to giving a phenomenal recap of the trip. Um, we're looking forward to being out there and doing a show together. Um those are our favorites, and uh yeah, that's all I've got.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:57

Yeah, I think uh I think if you're not looking forward to this, something's got to be wrong with you. So I uh I definitely am. I know you are. Uh, I'm sure some of our listeners can't wait to hear about it. It'll be uh a great episode next week. Um, I think we'll it'll it'll release the same time, just so everybody knows. So it'll release next Saturday, 8 a.m. Uh, we'll have it out there for you like we do every week. But yeah, it's gonna be great. Really looking forward to it. And uh can't thank Mr. Ken Noonan enough for hosting us and setting this up. So thanks to Ken. And if if you really, if you really want, if you want to join in on these fun golf experiences, reach out to us uh and let us know where you're at, what you're into, and and maybe we can do a golf trip out with you too. So uh we don't want to feel like we're excluding anybody from our fun. Uh so we're always happy to play golf and meet new friends. So if you're interested in reaching out, go ahead, Chuck.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:51

Yeah, if you got a if if you've got a cool spot, I mean I'm I'm certainly always happy to do a home and home, but uh If you've got a cool spot and want to show it off, we won't.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:03

Yeah. So yeah, if you want to reach out to uh Chuck about doing a home and home or reach out to me about playing public golf and letting me come out to your amazing facility, uh, you're more than welcome to reach out to us on Instagram. You can find Chuck at Hudlow423. You can find me at measured golf or at the forceplate guy. And if you are listening to this podcast and not watching it, you can also find the video version of this podcast on our YouTube channel where we also have content pieces that get into my specialty in coaching and teaching golf. So a lot of great content up there for you if you're struggling with your golf game and looking for some help. If you're interested in working with me uh on your golf game, that's how Chuck and I met. But if you're interested in doing some virtual coaching or coming to me in Ann Arbor, you're always welcome to go to measuredgolf.com. You can reach out to me there and we can figure out how we're going to get your golf game trending in the right direction. So thanks so much for listening. We're looking forward to the next episode when we are recapping a wonderful time in the sun. But until then, keep grinding.