Pete Cowen On Building A Repeatable Swing Without Injury

The fastest way to spot real skill in golf is not a launch monitor number. It’s what happens when you put a player in the short game area, ask for a specific shot, and watch whether they can organize the club early enough to control it.

We’re joined by Pete Cowen, one of the most influential golf coaches in modern history, to talk about what actually holds up under tour pressure. Pete shares how a back injury pushed him away from “rock and block” mechanics and into a spiral-based approach that protects the body while building repeatable motion. We also get into the part of coaching that rarely shows up on swing videos: stage fright, self-sabotage, and why sometimes the best help is simply talking a player off the ledge. His Three Rs bring it all back to basics: respect yourself, respect the people who helped you, and take responsibility.

From the famous Brooks Koepka bunker story to Pete’s view of delivery position, wrist alignment, and clubface control, the throughline is clarity. We dig into practice efficiency, why “more reps” can backfire, and how to use biomechanics, force plates, and TrackMan without drowning in data. Pete also reflects on legends like Hogan, Tiger, and Seve, and what separated them when it mattered most.

If you coach golf, compete, or just want a more reliable swing and short game, hit play and take notes. Subscribe, share this with a golf friend, and leave a review with the biggest idea you’re stealing from Pete.

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Pete Cowan

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listener, sit down and join me, Michael, as we discuss all things golf. And if you have seen an episode before, you're probably aware that I did not mention Chuck. And the reason I did not mention Chuck this week is Chuck most graciously has given up his seat for a very special guest, somebody that I really look up to. Uh, when it comes to my Mount Rushmore of golf coaches, this person occupies all four spaces, and it is none other than the man in black, Mr. Pete Cowan. And we are so thankful to have you, Pete. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I'm good, Michael. Thanks. Yeah, been at work at the range today. Uh doing my RD research and development. Still haven't found the answer.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

I uh I love that you're still out there doing your RD. And I I heard you on Rick Shields podcast talking about that a bit. And I just think it's awesome that all this time in 60 almost 60 years of it'll be 60 years next year when I've been a pro.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

60 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Yeah, 60 years then, and you're still just like the rest of us trying to find the answers. I just think that's absolutely amazing and inspiring all at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Well, I'll keep trying until they bury me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, well, I mean, you've had such a like we said, 60 years long career, lot of lot of seat time, a lot of time in the saddle.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

And yeah, I've been 32 years on tour.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah, but it's not only have you been a coach, but you were a player as well. And maybe some people who aren't as familiar with you might not understand that you had quite an impressive playing career until an unfortunate injury kind of derailed the progress that you were making, including winning a professional event in Zambia Oceans.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't say it was impressive. I would say it was very average, to be fair. Although I did win in Africa, and that was quite an interesting one because I had a terrible temper at the time. And uh even in the last round, I broke three clubs and still managed to hold 10 footput on the last to win by a shot.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I just can't imagine you breaking three clubs with the three Rs intact.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Well, that was before the three Rs. That was I snapped the driver over my knee on the second T because I knocked it out of bounds. So I had to play the rest of the round with a three would.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Nice. Well, luckily you were drop you were using the three well well at that point because uh you still managed to get the job done uh with less than 14 clubs. That's impressive.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

A lot less. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

It made it easier to carry the bag because I don't think you actually definitely lighter.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

No, definitely lighter.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Well, that's that's amazing. And for people that may be not as familiar with your work, I mean, if there was ever a been there, done that coach, uh, and a and a former player, it would definitely be you. You've traveled all over the world, you've played with some of the greatest to ever play the game, including Gary Player, uh, have some amazing stories that Sam Sneed as well. Sam Sneed. And if I'm not incorrect, I think you were asked about maybe one of your favorite golf swings, and you said it was Sam Sneed. You thought that was the one.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, definitely. Sam Sneed close behind Hogan, just because their bodies move so well, really.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, and I I think it's funny because when you look at Sam Sneed, maybe not prototypically what you would see players trying to do today, more than likely due to technology changes with the equipment and the ball. But I do see some similarities with what Sam Sneed does in Scotty Scheffler, which I think is very interesting as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, I mean, um, as I say, I spent a little bit of time with Sneed there talking about the goal swing, which was very interesting. Uh and he was still a great player then. He was 68 year old and he shot a couple of 69s

Temper Stories And Tour Life

SPEAKER_01 3:50

in the first two rounds. So it's he could still play then.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Do you still have the letter he wrote you after the event?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, I still got it. Yeah. That's amazing. The only reason he wrote that is because I beat him in the first two rounds. So he put to a wonderful player, Pete Cowan regards Sam Sneed. That was because I'd beaten him for the first two rounds. Well, that makes it only reason he put that.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Well, that makes it official. If Sam Sneed said you're a great player, then we can't downplay your professional career. Because if if Mr. Sneed gave you the endorsement there, I I think we have to take him at his word. Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah, so I mean, you you had this, and I I don't want to get into everything because I know you've talked about these things in the past, and people can find that if they're interested, but you had this, what I would consider to be a very good uh career. Unfortunate that we had the injury with the slip disc. But in a lot of ways, the injury that took away the playing also got you thinking more about the body and thinking about technique, and maybe put you on a little bit more of the path to being the coach that you've become. And I just I know you've talked about Ramsey and the spiral and things like that, but can you maybe talk to me a little bit about when you started looking into this and looking into the spiral, how that transformed your way of thinking when it came to the golf swing?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Well,

Injury Recovery And Spiral Movement

SPEAKER_01 5:08

it was uh it I tried to go back too quickly each time. After six months, they told me I could go back, but it broke down, broke down, broke down. So I suddenly had to realize that my technique was obviously causing the injury and it was very poor. And it was rock and block, you know, tilt, very much of a tilt. Uh so uh luckily I had a friend that was an orthopedic surgeon and he looked after me and he was a golfer. So we started discussing, you know, better ways of moving the body to prevent injury, basically. Uh and obviously then I spent a lot of time hitting loads when I eventually was fit enough to hit balls again. I spent a lot of time hitting uh balls three feet above my three feet above the ground, like literally off a three-foot IT, and just made the body work properly in a rotational sense, really, uh rather than a you know a a a rock and block uh you know tilt and a tilt. Uh so I suddenly started seeing the body moving so much better, what I could do, and then obviously started matching up the arm, hand, and club movement to that particular body movement. And then we discussed it with a few of the clever people, if you like, um orthopedic surgeons and neurosurgeons. And uh they they all of a sudden said, well, the way the body moves is definitely much more in you know keeping with the movement you're trying to make now, uh, from the ground up, working up correctly, you know, uh basically your feet against the ground and then you're turning against your feet. So I suddenly realized that there was a better way of doing it. And then obviously from there I started thinking about how I could get the arms and hands in club movement without lifting them. And then it was the muscle structure within the body that allowed me to do that, really. So it was really almost studying the martial arts as well, how you push the pull.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

I I just find that very interesting because now with the technology that we have, force plates, 3D motion capture, a lot of smart people have come into the industry and helped us along. But at this time, when you were working on this with your orthopedic surgeon friend, there there really wasn't, and and correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like there was really a connection so much between the body and how the body actually works and how a golf swing should match that. And it seems like maybe you had to figure out quite a bit of a.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

I was definitely definitely, definitely, you know, to to prevent the injury. I had to almost make my spine come up, not crush down, you know, which was you know the big problem that I had. I was rock and block, and I still feel the lower right, my back in the lower right lumber region, you know, if I do that. So, you know, I I all of a sudden said, well, it's probably right this, and then kept doing it and doing it and doing it until I could basically make the movement I wanted to. And then I started, I did play again, but uh not uh and I played in eight opens, so I I was at a reasonable standard, I would put that as a reason eight opens. So I was at a reasonable standard.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, no, no doubt. I mean, like you said, you you had the injury, unfortunately, like we were talking about a little bit before we came on air, you know, kind of at a formative time uh in your development, and you you kind of shot out of the cannon, right? So you went from you know shooting 109, 100 in your first ever event, six months on the job, to you know, maybe six months later, I believe, going out there and shooting two rounds in the 70s, and then you you, you know, less than five years into really playing golf, you're playing down in Africa with Gary Player.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

So I mean you it was in Brazil, actually. It was in Brazil. Oh, excuse me, Brazil, yeah, Rio, playing with player, yeah, it was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

But that's a meteoric rise for for somebody who really didn't have a background in golf. You were a former footballer, and unfortunately, an injury got you out of that uh unfortunate injury. Hip injury, yeah. Yeah, that gets you into golf. But for somebody to develop that quickly, it sounds like you had something there. And to kind of get derailed as you're developing that skill and kind of honing those skills, it is it was work ethics, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

I just hit thousands of balls, thousands and thousands of balls. Yeah. Never stopped. I used to turn the lights out at my local range every night.

unknown 9:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

That's where I met that's where I met my wife with you know, at the range, because I never went anywhere else after work. I just went to the range and hit ball after ball after ball after ball.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

I almost wanted to ask you because you spoke so glowingly of your family when I saw you at Augusta this past year. I was going to ask the question, but I didn't want to be out of pocket. But for somebody who has been this obsessed for this long, how did you ever meet your wife? But now we have the answer. You met her. The girlfriends, yeah. So you're serving behind the bar. Awesome. That's amazing. And you've been married for how long, Pete? 50 years. Wow. So golf a little longer than the wife, but you've you've managed to keep both going for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah. Uh there's the old statement, they said, How have you managed to be married for so long? I said, Well, uh, my wife often says, Well, the only reason we've been married 50 years is because we've only lived together for three because I've been away that often.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Well, I mean, that's that's the thing I kind of want to come on to is, you know, as much as I've looked into this preparing for this podcast, I I've been a big fan of yours for a long time. Uh, I don't know that you know this, and there's no way of you knowing this. But one of my one of my little tricks of spending time with Pete Cowan has always been I look at the T-sheet and I figure out which players you have, and then I go to the first T when those players are there, and I just look for you walking. And I've always really appreciated my time with you. And one thing that I've always really appreciated is your absolute commitment to this craft and your uh like there's not been many people who have bet on themselves the way you have, and whether that be when you were playing as a professional or whether that be as you as a coach, you betting on yourself and putting in the work, and and like you said, you hit thousands of balls, but you've also traveled hundreds of thousands of miles, if not millions at this point, to be there with your players and to support your players. And I just I think that's very admirable because there's not very many people in the current day and age that are willing to bet on themselves like you have.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

I must be mad.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yeah, but there's something there, like there's there's something for you to and and look, the list is impressive. And just real quickly, I I want to cover a few names for our listeners that may be not as familiar, but Rory McElroy, Matt Fitzpatrick, Lee Westwood, Podrick Harrington, Graham McDowell, Louis Osten, Danny Willett, Sergio Garcia, Darren Clark, Henrik Stenson, Ian Poulter, Gary Woodland, and Brooks Kepka. I mean, that is a a group of players in its own right. And for you to have some kind of impact and effect on each one of those people and to bet on yourselves to prove that you could do that, especially as an early professional, I mean, there's there there's got to be some kind of underpinning belief there for you. And I I just think that that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Yeah, and I also I I c I've coached the 11 out of the last 13 Ryder Cup captains.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Wow, I was gonna ask if Luke Donald had spent some time with you.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Uh I did coach two years, uh two and a half years of coach Donald for when he was world number one.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Would you say uh here's a fun question for you because you are known to be a bit of a short game savant, and and look, you're a you can coach the full swing as well as anybody else. But the the great stories that I love the most about you uh do include a lot of short game stuff. But was Luke the best to ever chip and pitch the golf ball? He was the best bunker player, best bunker player, and that's high praise coming from you because there is a story. Um, I'm not going to tell it because I have the the privilege of having you on here. But uh uh for a golf coach that works with really good players, um, it's tough sometimes to to kind of go toe-to-toe with them. But I there's a story of you and Brooks in a bunker, and maybe not the bollocksing that we'll maybe come on to later, but the story about Brooks and his bunker game and you telling him it needed

Brooks Koepka Learns The Hard Way

SPEAKER_00 13:55

to be better. Would you mind sharing that with us? Because it's my absolute favorite story.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, well, uh Ricky Elliott, who caddies for Brooks, had just started caddying for Brooks, and uh he'd said to Brooks, your short game's not good enough, Brooks. You know, you need to uh C Pete. No, my short game's fine. There's nothing wrong with short games, nothing wrong with it. So he says, Well, you know, I'd like you C Pete. So he said, Well, all right, we'll do that. So of course along comes Brooks. Just he just basically finished on the um challenge tour and just just got on the European tour, and we were at Wentworth. And um we were on the practice. I said, right, we'll go down to the uh short game area in the bunker. Fine, fine, sort of. So I said to Brooks, right, all I want you to do is just show me one particular shot and then let's go from there. So I said, right, I want a nice high floater, one bounce check and release it to the hole, to a back left flag. So of course it did what most of the players did chunk and run. So it chunked it, got down, ran on the green to about five or six foot. A decent shot, but not great. So I said, no, I said I want it higher than that, and I want you to land nice and soft, one bounce check, release it down to the hole. So of course he hit another one, jumped it a bit, ran down to the hole again. Reasonable shot, five or six foot. So I said, no, that's not a shot. I I want it, I want it much higher. Landing softer, one bounce check release. So he said, Well, if you use a good, you hit it then. So I said, give me the club. So of course I stand there. Nice high flight, a one bounce check releases into the hole. And he looked at me and he said, That was a flu, flu. So I said to Ricky, give me another ball. So Ricky gave me another ball. Same shot, exactly the same. Well I float, a one bounce check, release again into the hole. And he looked at me and says, I think I'd better listen. And I said, Yeah, you better listen. But it was a complete flute, by the way. No, it wasn't. I was a good bunker player at that time. I was really I could I would have challenged anybody.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

I mean So, you know, the thing was it wasn't that difficult for me to show him at all. But with a lot of coaches, it's very difficult to say, Well, I want you to do this. And then when they turn around to you and actually put you on the spot and said, Well, if you're so clever, you do it. And then it's a particularly short game, you know, high flies, uh, lob shots and everything else. And you need to be able to do it sometimes. And it's the best way of getting their attention. That's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Do you think that you and Brooks have the same tenure, the same relationship without that particular moment?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

No. Probably not. Uh, because all of a sudden I think you get the respect you get from that is, you know, almost you can't measure it. You know, you can't measure that. Because they look at you and say, bloody hell, he can do it. Why can't I do it? You know, so it's one of those things, really. Yeah. And then he became a really, really good bunker player and a good pitcher and a good chip, which he has been. The the the only thing that's holding back at the moment isn't he doesn't hold enough pups of the scoring range. It's he's good from 5'4 and under, but even that's got a bit uh dodgy these days.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Well, I believe so far this season, since he's returned to the PGA tour, he's leading the tour and strokes-gained uh approach, if I'm not Well, he was before that the last tournament.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, I think he was. Yeah. I don't know whether he still is, but he's certainly it's certainly up there, put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Well, luckily you're not the putting coach, so we can't be blamed for that one.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

I think I better start putting because it can't be that difficult. 12 inches back and 12 inches through doesn't sound that difficult to me.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah, I I mean, but that's that's incredible. And and you guys have have definitely had a great relationship. And and the other thing, and and not to not to stick to Brooks the whole time, but you know, you shared something with me that I thought was very impactful. And you know, I was I was trying to, in a naive way, was trying to ask you about, you know, what what's the you've won a lot of golf tournaments, you've won over 300 professional tournaments on I have I've won one, they've won 300 tournaments.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

They've won over 300. And a few more right worldwide, uh, over 13 majors. You've been a part

Human Skills Stage Fright Confidence

SPEAKER_00 18:30

of the team. Um, and I was trying to ask what it is that you did prior to that, and you gave me some great advice, and you said I I just talked him off the edge. I gave him you know a good ball thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

And that's that's that's it. I've I've given um players not technical advice, but I've talked them down off the ledge to win b big, big tournaments. And I I did it with Stens and I did it with Darren Clark, uh, I've done it obviously with Brooks. Uh, and you actually talk them down off the ledge because it make them realize how good they are, and they just want to be set, they just want to self-destruct. A lot of pros are like that. They want to self-destruct.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

You've talked about that a lot with stage fright. And I know you've worked with Matt Fitzpatrick and talked about how he's never had that stage fright. And that's something that I think that you're very keen on is understanding a lot of the human skills. Like, yes, there's X's and O's in golf instruction, and yes, we're trying to create swings that are repetitive and things that they're going to be able to manage. But the one thing I've heard you talk about more recently, uh, when I've spent time with you, is this kind of human skills and stage fright and and being prepared for that moment. And I think that that's really important stuff that we need to be helping our juniors with in addition to the X's and O's.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Well, that's why I always say to you, the three R's. And if you live your life by the three R's, whether it's golf or anything else that you do, you'll be a great human being. It's as simple as that. And the first one, as I said, I disrespected myself smashing those clubs in the early days. So I found out that that doesn't really work. Uh, and I said, you've got to respect yourself, hold yourself up in high esteem, really have that respect. That's the first one. The second respect is respect the people that have helped you to get there, whether it's your coach, your mum and dad, your friends, whoever it might be, respect the people that have helped you to get where you are. But the third one is the most important, which is really you've got to be responsible for your own action. It's not always somebody else's fault. Look within.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah. And and like you said, it it's difficult for these. I think it's difficult for the current and this generation of tour player, because there's so many people around them that that, and I hate to use this word, but they kind of coddle them and they're yes people, and they make it seem like they're never doing anything wrong. But I think that's where you step in and and kind of shine the light and go, hey, we know we can do this, so let's get on with it. Let's get it done.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Yeah, I mean, Brooks was the classic. He's always said, Look, I don't want any ego stroking. I want you to tell me the truth. Don't give me all that bullshit. I want you to tell me the truth. If I'm not doing it right, you tell me. And that's why we've always had that connection, really. I've been able to tell him that he's out of order.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Is that why him and Ricky have worked so well together? Because Ricky's kind of a no-nonsense guy as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

He does the same thing, yeah. He does the same thing. Not to the extent that I do, because the thing is with me, I'm not frightened of losing my job. And that's what I would say to all coaches. Don't be frightened of losing your job. Tell the truth, because you'll get found out if you don't. And you know, it's it's cost me a couple of jobs in the past, but you know, fine. But I've always been true to say, look, this is what I see, this is how I see it, and you're not doing it how you know you think you're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

So, I mean it it allows us to sleep at night. And one thing that I've always really respected about you is you are known as a no-nonsense kind of coach. And I've always tried to be that myself. The reason being that I always and I talk about this a bit, but I believe in being a fiduciary coach. And that means you have to do what's right for the player. You you and not what makes them feel the best, not what makes you know their support staff feel the best, but we've got to do what's right for the player. And if if we aren't honest with that player, it's only going to lead to problems down the road.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Well, you know, there's sometimes you as you're coaching them, I've I've done it occasionally, where you think you've got to please the player. And that's the problem in itself. But what you've got to do, if you're very, very clever, is whatever you want to get over to that player, you've got to make them think it's their idea. Somehow you've got to turn it round. Yeah. But you've got to be true to yourself and say, No, I'm not giving up on this. Because they'll ask you. They'll ask you to turn around and say, sure about this. You'll come in the eye and say, Yeah, I'm absolutely convinced. Because I always say, look, there is light at the end of the tunnel, right? There's a tunnel there. And I said, down that tunnel, there's these offshoots. Offshoots all the way down. And you know what? I've been down them all. And after six months, you have to turn around and come back. So don't start saying, what if we do this? What if no, I've done that. What if we do that? No, I've done that. What if we do that? No, it's six months down the road. You'll be back here in six months. Don't do that. So luckily, I've been down all the dead ends.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, and I I think that that's that's really the art of coaching, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

It took me 60 years to go down all the dead ends.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

And you're still going down them doing your art.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, I still find the odd one. I'm nearly though, nearly there.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

I mean, and it's it you're not wrong, though. It's we're in a society now to where people have shorter attention spans, people want to get what they want now. Uh, they don't want to wait. And and everybody on social media or on YouTube or what have you is saying that they have the solution. And if you just do this one thing, you're gonna play like Scotty Scheffler or Brooks Kepka's. So I just think it's very tough now to get people to put their faith in the fact that there is a plan. So with the plan uh kind of being discussed, I did have a question.

How Pete Builds A Plan

SPEAKER_00 24:34

And my question is maybe a little less developmental and maybe a little bit more how you see things, but let's pretend that you have uh a top 100 player in the world come up to you, not somebody that you've developed from a young man, but somebody who's already a little bit established, top 100 player in the world, very nice player, obviously being ranked that high. What do you, if they say, hey, if they come up to you and they say, hey, Mr. Cowan, I would I would love to have your services, uh, once you get the business out of the way, which I don't even think probably happens early on with you, but once you've committed to this player, are you a go look at at stats? Are you a go look at the swing? Are you a just have a conversation? How do you kind of start figuring out what that plan looks like for that particular player?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Well, I think everything starts in the short game, like I did with Brooks. You can see whether they've, you know, spent the time. Spent the time on the short game because you'll learn more about a player through what they do in the short game and what they're able to do. The long game isn't that difficult, really. Getting the short game sorted and getting them really making sure that they understand what the mechanics are that they need to get better. Because a lot of it is pure mechanics in the short game. Whereas the long game, it's manipulation.

unknown 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Because it's happened so fast.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Over 90% of the well, more, I would say every player on tour is a manipulator. But some are better than others.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

For sure. I mean, it's and that's that's amazing too. So what's the when you go to the short game area with that player, what's the first thing you want to see? Like what what are the non-negotiables for you when it comes to kind of looking at the short game with a player?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Well, I want I want them to understand, you know, this the actual delivery position really is everything. Because I always say to players, look, there's only one common denominator between all great players that I've that I've found in my nearly 60 years. And that is that when they're playing at their best, the top players, they get the club in the correct delivery position relative to the shot they're trying to play. It's way too late at impact. It's even too late in delivery sometimes. It has to be done much, much earlier than you think. Because it's how all happens in a millisecond. So, but they definitely get it in the correct delivery when they're playing well. There's no double cross. There's no double cross. And the only poor shot in golf, as we all know, is a double cross. You can get away with a push, a pull, a little bit of a you know, slice, a little bit of a hook, but you can't get away with a double cross.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Well, that's kind of I think what you solved for when when Lee Westwood came to you, he was a young man and struggling to make it as a professional. And uh on another podcast, you said that he was pretty short and wild, and you were able to help him take one side out of the golf course out of the equation, and and you can play golf that way. So, I mean, that that all jives with everything that I've heard you say so far.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yeah, I mean, uh if we can take one side of the course out, it makes the game so much easier. That's why I quite like one-dimensional players. Yeah, it's that they don't try and do anything that they can't do.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny too, right? Because working with some very good juniors here stateside, uh, that I have the privilege of working with, they they want to be able to do all these things. And it's like, I mean, it's it's great, and you need to have the ability to call upon that when you need it. But man, is it good to be a master of one thing?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And if that's why I always say to people, what would you do if your life depended on it? You've got to play every shot as though your life depends on it. So, what would you do with this driver if your life depends on it to hit that fairway? What would you do with this iron to hit it close to that flag if your life depended on it? What would you do with this chip if your life depended on it? You might put it. That said, fine, if your life depends on it, you might well. But you know, that's the key. It's almost that you've got to be actually 100% in the commitment that you want to actually make.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah, and I mean it it's so I just think that's so tough for people to have this thing that they are committed to and having that belief system that they can do it in that moment. Um, so I think it it really comes down to preparation and and knowing and putting in the work. I mean, that's one thing that you alluded to is when you were coming up and developing your golf game, is how many balls you hit. Now, I think we've both talked about this, and and we probably wouldn't subscribe a thousand golf balls a day to our current players because we know that the wear and tear on the on the human can be a lot. But at the same time, like you've there are that's the thing I love about golf. There's still no short game for putting in the work, putting in the practice, and understanding what you can and can't do.

Practice Math And Smarter Reps

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Well, yeah, you've got to work smarter. You still had you you need to do both because of what I always say. I mean, every every thing I talk about is that every golf shot takes approximately one and a half seconds, which is nothing. So the physical element of your golf swing is one and a half seconds, particularly. So I always tell the story. I said, right, so if you ever if every day you played a round of golf and hit 400 balls, let's say you did, right? Well, full shots on a round of golf, 40 max. I'm not saying chips and putts. So that's 40 multiplied by one and a half seconds, that's 60 seconds. You've done one minute's work. On the physical effort that you've tried to improve, how many really good shots do you hit? Five or six, ten seconds good work, fifty seconds not so good. You actually got worse.

unknown 30:26

You know.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

So then you're going to hit 400 balls, which would take you all day. So it's taken you five hours to play a round of golf, five hours to hit 400 balls, and 400 balls, you've hit that's 600 seconds, that's 10 minutes. So your physical effort again is 10 minutes. And I say, how many good shots, how many book bad shots? Everybody says half good, half bad. So I said, which part of the brain knows is the good stuff and the bad stuff? It might give you the wrong stuff at the wrong time, which it does off very often, because you've confused the brain. So you've done 11 minutes physical work on the thing that you're trying to improve, the physical work that you're trying to say, you're trying to improve it. So if you said to an Olympic athlete, right, I'm going to spend 11 minutes a day on my goal swing to become the best player in the world, what would the Olympic athlete do? Look at you and say, You're having a laugh. You are having a laugh. But that's what everybody's basically trying to do, which is a joke, really. It's a joke, isn't it? When you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Do you think that's why you see so much more effort and time being putting into the PTs and the strength and conditioning coaches out there, is kind of understanding that it's maybe not easier, that's the wrong word, but maybe it makes a bit more sense to actually train the movement versus trying to do it through hitting the ball.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Well, I would say so. In any case, that's what I'd like to see. And Kevin Duffy, who works with me, I mean, he does spiral dynamics and all that. Duffy's brilliant. Uh, and he can sense with a player that we can improve this quite markedly with this particular movement that we need. So he can screen them and say, which is what Ramsey used to do, screen them and say, Yeah, this is he can do this or he can't do that, and then you know, work at it until either they can or you they don't need to. So this always so you as a golf coach, you've got to work with everybody. You have to now. These days you did. I didn't have anybody other than Ryan Lumsden, who's probably the best biomechanics guy in the world. He's from St Andrews originally, but he worked with Ramsey and he's done in Australia. But Ryan to me is when I want to do it and know anything about biomechanics, I'll ring Ryan. He's done all the things that we wanted to. Because we had all these camps in the early days, me, Ryan Lumsden, Ramsey Mike Master. We had all the camps in Dubai in the early days, and we produced a lot of really, really good players through just the camps and them getting better. So that was that was the early doors. I'm talking 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

So you would have guys come in and you had real experts on the human body there, and you would kind of use them almost to, and I hate to say this because it's it's not correct, but you'd almost have them kind of screen the players, figure out where they needed the help, and then you would kind of combine efforts with this is what we we want them to do, and this is the the the changes that we're going to try to elicit to get them there.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah, and make them use the body much more efficiently, really. And that's what Ryan would do with the biomechanics. He was brilliant, and he still is. He coaches um one of the girls that one of the the Australian girls that's uh uh Minmoo Lee and what what's what's his sister's name?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Um uh shoot. I can I can see her, I just can't think of her name.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Minji Lee, is it? Minji. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Mingy Lee and Minmoe does them and has done for a long, long, long time.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

So that's kind of the weird thing, is so much of I mean, America, we love to take things that aren't ours and claim they are. But you know, force plates is a relatively new technology, track man is a relatively new technology, a lot of the body screening systems that are out there now is relatively new.

Biomechanics Force Plates TrackMan Proof

SPEAKER_00 34:19

But the thing that blows me away is my first introduction into becoming a more well-informed golf coach was The Golfing Machine by Homer Kelly. And that was published in 1969. So we had people back in the day looking into these things, but I was under the belief, and incorrectly under the belief, that the golfing machine was really the first attempt at answering some of these body club connections that I was trying to figure out. But then you find the search for the perfect swing, which came out of the UK in 1968 a full year before, and actually had doctors and scientists that were involved in that project. And it's it's wild to me to hear this isn't new. We've been trying to figure out this body-club connection for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah, I mean, force plates. I mean, uh, 30 odd years ago, I had a um, again, a doctor if in um Florida. He said, I've got something that you'd be interested in. Because he knew I was coach, still coaching with the players. And he got the force plates then. And he put me on them, and the graphs were absolutely mind-blowing. And when I looked at all, I said, Well, this means that. And I said, Too much information. I said, if you can condense that down to something that you know we can actually relate to relative to the movement we're trying to make. But I said, there was that much information. It was a joke. I still got the leaflet somewhere, and it was it was mind-blowing. That's over 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Yeah, I mean, I I think that for so many people, um, look, it it's great information, it's objective data, which is what I'm interested in because my opinion is only as good as my opinion. But when I have objective data to look at, that allows me to try my best to give that person the best information possible. But I think that's where we're going wrong with instruction these days is that it's gotten so technical, it's gotten so advanced. There's so many different things that we're able to now look at. But we're forgetting the essence of true mastery is being able to take all of those graphs and being able to distill it down to one thing that's actually going to improve your player's performance today.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Well, what's funny enough, some of the young kids now are talking about force plates and you know, ground force reaction. And I said, Well, tell me what what you perceive as ground force reaction. Uh while using the ground button and I said, How do you do it? How do you do it? And I said, and then I asked the question, they'll I've told you before. So I asked the question, I said, Does a horse pull a car or does it push it? And they all said pull. I said, no, no, no. Where does it get its power from to pull the car? Where does it get its power from? And then they say, Well, it pushes against the ground, yes, it pushes against the harness, it pulls the car. I said, So it's a push before a pull. And then I say, Does a car pull a trailer or does it push it? Same thing. Engine pushes the power down into the wheels, the wheels push into the ground, off it goes, it pulls the car. So it says there's a push before a pull in certain situations. Yeah, and the same with a theraband against the wall. Am I pushing or am I pulling almost instantaneously doing the same? So it's almost that there has to be a push to start it off to create the pull. And then there has to be a push to push to create the power to pull. Amen. So and then it should be as simple as that. So then I said you don't then need everything to tell you, but martial arts has been doing that for hundreds of thousands of years.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah, and I mean, come coming onto that a little bit, you know, you're right, you're 100% right. Um, and I I have to give you credit, and I always do, you know, you've talked about the spiral for as long as I've known about you, and and for even longer than that, I'm sure. But if it wasn't for you, I would have never looked into Dr. Thomas Meyer's work, who went through and helped identify the spiral lines throughout the body and how those kind of work and how we, to your point, have to create the push to create the pull. And I mean, I'm so thankful for that. But the thing that just blows me away is how, through effort and through dedication, so many of these things got figured out before we could actually measure them or prove them. I mean, that's that's a testament to people like yourself who just are in the lab hitting a thousand balls a day doing the RD.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Well, it goes back to uh Trickman. So Klaus, who is part owner of Trackman, came to me in 2003 or four, I can't remember, 2003 or four. And he came to me on the range at Wentworth, the PGA championship. And he said, Um, I've got a machine here I'd like you to have a look at. All right. Darren Clark was there, and Westwood I was coaching Darren and Westwood. So I asked Darren, because he loves the gadget. I asked Darren to get a few shots on this, and then Klaus showed me all this. And I had to say, I had to say, hang on a minute, Klaus, I want to shake your hand. What do you mean? I said, you've just proved what I've been saying for 20 odd years that the ball flight laws are wrong. And he says, you are. I said, I couldn't prove it, but I kept saying to everybody, no, the ball flight laws are wrong. I'm sorry. No, can't be, can't be wrong, can't be wrong. I said, Well, you know, I'm telling you. And the PGA said, Well, you know, will you, you know, do a manual? I said, no, because your ball flight laws are wrong. No, no, they're not. We've been John Jacobs says this, John. And of course, you know, eventually John had to say, yeah, well, obviously, I got it slightly wrong, but it was the best information at the time. But it was, right? John was brilliant. John Jacobs is brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

What led you? Two two-part question, but what led you to A have that self-belief, that self-determination to go, hey, these ball flight laws aren't correct, other than like just what you saw. I'm sure you did some investigating into that. And the second part to that is what what was the reaction when you would say that? Because I had I have to think people would have just thought you had you'd gone mad.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah, they thought crazy. Yeah. Because I I said, Well, I can hit a uh I can hit a fade with a short face. Oh no, you can't, you can't, you can't. I said, Well, I know I can. Short face relative to a target. I said, I know I can. I said, I've I've I've I've watched Trevino enough to to realize what the situation is with the ball flights, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Was it Trevino that kind of led you down that line? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

I mean, because he was he was the best hitter out there. And he was with he was under the same management as me in the 70s.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

That's amazing. I mean, and and it's it's wild because I think I think that's where golf sometimes goes a little awry, is that we have these things that we just believe to be true because we've heard them so many times. But I I still think there's a lot of things that we haven't quite uncovered yet that eventually will make the game easier and will lead to more consensus over what does make a good golf swing.

Short Game Delivery And Wrist Alignment

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Yeah, but also with the short game, I think uh it's massive for the talk about vertical swing play. But understanding again the delivery of the club relative to whatever shot you want. And the best chippers in the world, the best pitchers in the world, all do the same thing. They have great wrist alignment, which is club phase control. And that's allow that's allowing the toe to release correctly in a downward force relative to the movement left. It sounds it isn't complicated, it's a very simple process, but most people just don't understand it. Because they always say, well, inside to inside. I said, Yeah, that will create a nice release chip, chip and run. Of course it will, absolutely it will. But you have to have more of a descending blow if you want to actually spin it a bit better.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

So when it when it comes to short game, and and this is kind of uh, I'm not trying to get us in any kind of hot water here, but you know, there's there's a lot of people who think, you know, it's it's all about spin. There's people who think it's all about land angle, there's people who are kind of all over the place with this. But when it comes to your really good short game players that you've been around, and you've been around some of the greatest ever do it. Do you see them really being the master of one shot and only varying when they have to? Or do you see them absolutely?

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

But they're also capable of being variable and hitting all the different shots.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yeah, absolutely. But their wrist alignment back here in the delivery position without decent wrist alignment there. And they all basically learnt it off Steve Tricker. Jason Day says he learned it off tricker. Um Patrick Reed the same thing. Cam Smith, they're all variables of Steve Tricker. And he's always had very simple wrist alignment because he does it in his full swing.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it not to say that it's simple because it it never is. We're dealing with human beings, but I mean, that's that's you've talked about this before, but simple, you know, looking golf swings that are repeatable is always going to. Be kind of the way we want to go. It's it's tough enough with the environment we play in and the different things we have to do, but keeping the golf swing kind of simple and easily understood by the player is always a recipe for great golf.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah, and I mean when I when I'm with Brooks, I'll say, right, your golf swing does these things. This that's it, done. Doesn't do anything else. This is how your golf swing works. This is your pattern. You've got to make sure that pattern stays within certain parameters. And that's it. Don't undust it. No, nothing else.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Does he ever try to push you push back against that? Does he ever want to go down one of those?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

No, he knows. He knows he knows his pattern. He knows his pattern totally. And he the problem is that Brooks can hit you all nine shots at will. Perfectly. Everyone. Not a problem at all. The nine shots in a row. Not miss one, not miss one, not miss one. And I wish he could do that with putting nine in a row.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

He did nine in a row, he'd be winning these. Yeah, it'd be winning.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah. But with with the golf swing, uh, I always say equal and opposite is the key. Because if your club face is stable and teaching people to stabilize the club face is so important to have the club face as stable as possible, then obviously which is what wrist alignment is. And then you what one thing do you need to worry about is the path that you need to swing it up.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Yeah, and and I think the second part to that, uh coming onto that a little bit, is that you talk a lot, uh, and you're you're doing an amazing job. We're gonna get here talking about this, but you do an amazing job with the spiral code, which you guys just launched maybe a few months ago. Very proud to say I'm a pioneer member of that. I definitely think it's worth any coach's time to look into that and invest into that. Uh, a great program to learn.

Shoulders As The Swing Transmission

SPEAKER_00 45:51

But in in the spiral code, you talk a lot about the shoulders being the transmission to the golf swing. And I think a lot of it's that as well, right? Like, yes, wrists are alignments are very, very important, but also having the shoulders to support what the wrists are trying to do is huge. And one of the biggest moments of my coaching career uh and getting better at understanding was you you had talked a lot about the spiraling down and keeping pressure on the shaft. And I think that's huge because you see so many golfers now kind of falling back into that rock and block and getting underneath, and now they they can't put any pressure into the club with that right hand. And not only is that not going to help them in their full swing, but it's also not going to do them any favors when it comes to the short game.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

No, and it won't do the back any good either. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So I'm trying to put I'm trying to prevent everybody getting injured. So even at the moment, if I if I went out there and hit a thousand balls today, I wouldn't injure myself at all. I wouldn't get any wrist injury, elbow, shoulder. But most people don't understand. And it's difficult to actually talk about the sh loading the shoulders for draw and fade. But in simple terms, if your left hand goes on top on your right hand under, right, that's basically loading your shoulders. The other way is right hand on top, left hand under. That's loading your shoulders for fade, one's for draw, one's for fade. Simple, simple process. If you want to understand it, it's left hand on top, right hand under, draw, left hand down, right hand on top for fade. And that's basically what the shoulder movement is. And that's what your transmission's trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yeah, I mean, and it that's once again, that that's mastery, and that's 60 years in the making of making it that simple, right? I mean, it it took you a long time to figure that out. But now that we say it out loud, it it sounds simple in concept, but it takes a lifetime to master these things. And I think so many people, you know, want to, going back to your earlier point, want to manipulate this thing and want to try to do it all with the hands. And it's just very difficult to play playing golf with your hands.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Well, as I said, the thing is, I I always relate it to boxer. I said, does a boxer load his shoulders to get punched? He doesn't lock his shoulders in like everybody's doing with the towel drill. I mean, he's not going to knock anybody out doing that. But if he loads his shoulder and releases it, then obviously that's where the power is. So again, if you load your shoulders properly, there's so much power from the lat and the shoulder that you know you can deliver so much shaft pressure and face pressure on the ball.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

And I love the way you describe it as a transmission because we're using our body to create these ground reaction forces. Well, how do we transfer those ground reaction forces out through the hands to the club? Well, it has to go through the shoulders. And I I think that's a really good point that you bring up. And I love the fact that you guys call that the transmission because it took me a while to kind of think about that and understand that. But now that I better understand that, thanks to the spiral code, uh, it it's really been transformative in my coaching.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah, I mean, it's so much when you think about it, it's so much easier to think about it like that. But that's why we said the spiral is, you know, basically trying to create injury free uh and power to burn with the spiral movement.

Hogan Tiger Seve And Greatness

SPEAKER_00 49:20

So one thing that I did want to talk to you about is I've heard you talk uh a few times about going and visiting Gardner Dickinson, I believe back in the 70s, who was a Hogan disciple and somebody that you were interested in helping you with your golf game, and you spent a small king's ransom on golf lessons coming over uh and taking, I believe it was uh was it 20 lessons uh that you took? 10 lessons. 10 lessons. Uh $200 an hour. Yeah, back in 1960.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

48 48 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

And they think they're expensive now, right? But you coming over and even kind of requesting to maybe go and watch Mr. Hogan hit balls, what was what was the fascination for you with Mr. Hogan back then?

SPEAKER_01 50:13

And and have you uh basically his work, his work, his work ethics, you know, and the myth, the myths surrounding him. Because they're always a myth. You know, he you you talk about Michael Banalek, who, God rest his soul, is gone. He was paired with Hogan uh in the Masters, and of course he heard all the stories about Hogan being this unbelievable player and then he tells a story about the first t-shirt Hogan hit was he basically went on the ninth fairway from the from the first goal of his t-shirt. So, you know, I've heard all the myths about Gary player. You when I before I played with him, I'd all heard all the myths about Gary. He stood looking at the tree and he could take whatever branch you wanted off with whatever shot you wanted, he could take that branch off he got that branch. And then I played with him and suddenly realized that it was his short game that was so good.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Is that did Mr. Hogan did he kind of have the the the the same treatment as Tiger did during his run to where it just got built up to this thing that obviously isn't true? Tiger makes mistakes, tiger would miss shots, but was it was it kind of tiger before tiger in a way in terms of the mystique?

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah, yeah, the mystique. That's why the book was called the mystique, and it's his total mistake, you know.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

What a great, what a great sales job though, to to build that. Oh Maria, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

If you would have got I and I know, and and once again, you can hear this on another podcast, but you had requested to Mr. Dickinson that you maybe go out to Fort Worth and watch Mr. Hogan hit some balls. Did what were you other than work ethic? And I get that part, but what what would have been the thing you think you might have learned, or what would have been the thing that maybe you would hope to learn going out to Fort Worth and having the opportunity to to spend some time with Mr. Hogan?

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Um get rid of the myths, you know, and like he said, dig you dig it out of the dirt, which he obviously did. But I mean, you've got to remember before before his great years, he was a snap hooker. Um I mean, just couldn't couldn't get the ball airborne with a forward. He'll admit that, you know, to everybody. So it was interesting uh to uh for him to work it out himself again of how it actually you know evolved into this player. But if you watch him, and I asked um Dickinson, I said, what does he do more than anybody else? And he said he'll practice his golf swing in his hotel room all night without even hitting balls. He'll practice all night, swinging all night, swinging all night. So he used to do dry drills all the time.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Do you think that there is any very successful golfer, and and we're talking about the top level, that isn't maniacal in a way about their golf swing.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

I think they've all got to be a little bit that way. They've all got to be.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Every one of them really. I do too. And it's it's like you hear that about Hogan. We've all heard the stories about Tiger. You know, I I think growing up my age, I'm I'm 41 years of age. Um I hit Tiger right in a sweet spot. It was very formative on me. I just I I sometimes wonder if if golf was really his calling, or if he just was there and Earl wanted him to be this thing and he became this thing. But I always felt like Tiger had way more in the tank, and and obviously one of the best golfers to ever do it, if not the best. But I just I always felt like Tiger had a bit more there, and you were there for a lot of that. I mean, you got to see that firsthand. You know, what were what were some of the things that you took away that maybe separated Tiger from anybody else, or maybe was a comparable to some of the other players that you saw?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

I I think like a lot of the great players, there's a different noise when they hit the ball. You know, there was so much pressure on the ball at his best, and his ball flight control was unbelievable, really. His flight control up and down. And I always say, well, there's only three things you've got to get right in golf. You've got to start the ball online with the correct flight and the correct spin. And when you can do that, go and chip and put because there isn't there isn't any more to it than that. Uh, but he had that ability to up it, down it in all those. So his nine shots were always always in there. And he used them. He used them all. But he what people forget, he the reason he won so many mass masters is because he hit his spot, but it wasn't the whole where the hole was. He hit his spot all the time.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

It took me uh my first, I think the first year I was at Augusta National was 2018. And I remember walking by 17 green, and I started to understand what they meant by when they would say that Tiger really played with discipline. And you'll and to your point, like those spots that he would pick, he was picking somewhere he could get the ball to stop. But with those greens and the undulations that they have, if if you go after the pens and you you miss by maybe even an inch or two, that ball is not gonna stop within 50, 60 feet, if not come off the green altogether. And that's where I really kind of learned what made Tiger great was the ability to not see that pen and go, hey, this is the flat spot, this is where I can get the ball to stop. That's gonna give me a reasonable, reasonable place to play from.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

Well, if you look at all the people that have wanna ghost, most of them can hit the spot or are brilliant chippers.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah, you're gonna chip out there for sure. And I mean, it's so difficult with the full swing there with the approach game, just because of the lies that you get that are so severe out there. You're you know, hitting on seven, for example. I I know they're driving it a bit farther now, but if you look back to to some of the years prior, you see these guys hitting mid-irons and the balls at their chest. I mean, it's just incredible what Augusta forces on people. Yeah. So one question that I really want to ask, and we'll probably kind of wrap it up after that a bit, but you've been so gracious with your time. But your passion, it's it's just unmatched. And not to be not to call you out in any way, shape, or form, but you've been at this for next year 60 years, and just spending this time with you and and the time that I've spent with you in the past, you have such a passion, and that passion is an energy. And where where do you find the energy after all these years? What is it that keeps you kind of invested in this as much as you are?

SPEAKER_01 57:18

Uh, because there's always a better way of doing it. So that's what gets me up in the morning. I've got to be the one that finds the better way. There might not be a better way, but I've got to be the one that tries to find it, even though it's almost almost I'm my own guinea pig. I have to be because I can't, I can't rely on, you know, other people. I've got to know what I've done that's actually made that shot work or not work. And a lot of it is, you know, in the feel of the movement that I know have either made the correct movement or the incorrect movement. And that's why I said I learned so much out of bunkers because I move the ball and spin the ball with the sand. So when people say, you know, oh, plug lies in a bunker, difficult, I said, less control. There's no such thing as a bad lie in a bunker. It's just less control. Because you don't actually hit the ball unless you're trying to take it clean out of a fairway trap. So you're actually using the sand to move the ball. So that's why I always call it the ripple effect. You ripple the sand to move it. And that's why great bunker players draw the ball. Draw the ball out of some. They don't spin it left or right. Great bunker players draw. And that's what Sevi was brilliant at. That's why I learned I learned that off Sevi, although Gary player taught me bunker play originally, but Gary was all about spin. And with the old Balata ball, you could spin it for fun. That's for sure. And the old grooves as well. You could cut the ball in half. But Sevi was the one that caressed the sand to move the ball, and it ran like a putt once it got on. That's why it holds so many bunker shots. It ran like a putt every time. And so I I have to teach players to draw bunker shots.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

That's amazing. I mean, that's what was it like? I mean, how much okay? So here's here's a good question. How much of Sevi is Sevy, and how much of that is is kind of a Sevy mystique as well? Was he just that actually gifted, or or is there a little bit of mystique there as well?

SPEAKER_01 59:22

Uh I think more talent than mystique. It was unbelievable. It really was.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Witnessed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Well, obviously Nicholas is the best player by far, you know, because of his eighteen majors. So you would look at that, but he looked at it and he again he was a one-off. Because he he could afford to rock and block. And he was that powerful. And I think that's one of the reasons his body's not in great shape now. He just forced forced it on his body. You know, he really was so strong, so talented, and he forced it on his body, and that's why his body's a bit racked now. So you'd have to say Nicholas Hogan Woods probably seize Needon Sevy, and he would put Lowe's and the talent. Sevy was definitely different.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Sevy, yeah, it's it's funny because I I've been fortunate enough to come over to the UK a bit, and and when you talk to people, it's just it's so reverend when they talk about Sevi. Um, and and more so than people talk about Tiger or Jack here. It's Sevi was just so beloved. And I think people really, I think maybe they recognized they were actually seeing something different. It wasn't well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

I'll tell you I'll tell you a story about Sevi. I'll I've got the video somewhere. He was on the chipping green at Wentworth, and by the side of the chipping green, there's a very tight, slight downslope just by the chipping green. And I'm got him got him from you know face on. And he's taking a full swing and whipping it down the slope, and the ball's up on its landing 15, 20 feet in front of him. Soft. And I'd shown all these kids this from face on. That's impressive. I said, no, no, this is impressive. And I went and I did it down the line, and down the line is taking these full swings. And the putting green is full of people, full of pros. It's full of pros. And it's taking these full swings, whacking it on the downslope. It's going up in there and landing 10, 15 foot in front of him. I said, no, that's impressive. He didn't even give it one thought that he would actually miss that shot. Not one thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

I mean, that that's just that player belief, right? That they can pull the shot off.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

So I I know, and and we could we could make a whole series of just you know stories with with Pete Cowan, and I know you've got a million of them. What's maybe what's maybe the craziest story that maybe you haven't told before, at least to me, uh, that you've experienced out on the golf course, out on the tour.

Tour Stories Speed And Course Setup

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

Uh, something something maybe that really about funny enough, it it relates to Aaron Rye, who's just won the PGA championship.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

So Aaron Rye, the first year he qualified for the DP World Finals at in Dubai at Jameera State. So he's qualified, top 50 qualifier. So I'm coaching Poulter, and I'm on the on the practice ground with Ian Poulter and his his uh caddy, Terry, Terry Mundy. So we stood there, and next door there's Aaron Rye, who's obviously got in the tournament first time he's been there. And Polts looks over and he sees Aaron with his iron covers on his gloves and his two gloves. And he's you know, he's got no logos on his sweaters or shirt or his hat or anything. And he's stood there and he's hitting balls. And he he he goes, Tell you, who's this year? Is he one of the amateurs playing the pro? No, no, no, no. That's Aaron Rye, he's qualified. You are Polters, you are? I said, Yeah, he's had a decent year. I said he's obviously qualified to come here. So he's a and he's a good player. He's a good player, he's a nice lad, and he's a good player. Polts says. He says, If I don't beat him this week, I'm giving the game up. So anyway, after three rounds, Polts is like five behind Aaron Rye. And so me and Terry Mundy says to Polts, well, enjoy your last round, Polts. Enjoy your last round because Aaron ain't letting you a five-shot lead going back. And and that that was Polts. And uh, we've started laughing after that when he finished, and he and I eventually told Aaron that story of all it. And he Aaron just laughed his laughed his socks off, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

What a great story. What I mean, just hard work, determination. I mean, what a great and phenomenal player.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

So yeah, I mean, the work that he puts in is unbelievable. He'll spend seven hours on a practice round, mapping all the greens, doing whatever it takes, and then he'll go to the gym afterwards and do some gym work.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

The the only person uh I had somebody ask me about Aaron Rye for a comparison, and I said the only thing I've seen, and I haven't seen everything that you have, but the only thing I've ever seen close to it, um, I would get I would summate would be uh VJ Singh.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

I've I've never seen Party and Parrington and Harrington and Podrig, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Just one after the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Unbelievable. It's incredible, but I think it's the work ethics are unbelievable. It's a I mean, Podrick just played well at the PGA, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

Like he did, but he did when he eventually realized what he'd been doing slightly wrong. Which he had to kick on the Monday and Tuesday. Good stuff again. He was going for a speed, speed, speed, and total speed. And I said, Yeah, fine, but you're not you're gonna take it, you're hitting it all over the place. I said eventually you're gonna have to down those fairways.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:39

Do you think we're at the ceiling of speed, or do you think it's just gonna keep going?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

Well, yeah, but you lose control. I think Decembe once told me he said when it gets past 185, when it gets that's when it starts really going awry. When when 185 and beyond that. That's almost when Uh the technology, you know, almost as well, you know, you're gonna struggle to keep it on the course.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

Well, I think that's the thing that he's been trying to figure out, right? Is if if you're gonna play with this incredible, like the the current equipment is not designed for that. So I think that's where he's kind of gone on this search for different technology, different, different equipment to try to work for the speed that he creates. But I I couldn't agree more. It's no it's no different than the Ballada golf ball used to be. You could only hit it so hard because then you couldn't predict what the thing was gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

No, no, bring it back.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Yeah, right. Absolutely just come back at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Well, the problem the problem was with the the US PGA, which became I'm glad Aaron won it actually, because obviously he hits it fairly straight and you know fairways mattered. But there, the problem was that the further you hit it offline, the better lie you got because of all the walk down with all the spectators.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

No players there knocking it 40 yards offline and still getting a shot. And the guys that were two yards off the fairway were hacking it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

No, I don't see that. And I and I said, Well, that's that's really why you should have kept the trees.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Yeah, I think that's where the trees definitely, you know. I I think the trees, I understand um what they're trying to do from the agronomy perspective and things like that. Yeah, yeah. And that all makes sense. But I think for tour events, I think trees are the best thing ever. Because to your point, now all of a sudden it it really does put the premium back on getting the ball into playoff the T versus just sending it as far as you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

So they're putting competitions now, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

Well, we we gotta help Brooks with that. We got if he gets into that putting competition, he's gonna do quite well. Yeah, he will. Absolutely. I have one last question for you.

St Andrews Farewell And Closing

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Yeah. Um I know you've walked a lot of holes, and and that's one thing I I truly appreciate about you is that you're out there with your players walking, and that creates the opportunity for people like me to find you. Um, if you had one more walk, if you knew it was the last one, it's the the Mr. Pete Cowan retirement tour, and I hope it never comes. But if you had to walk one one golf course one last time and that was that, which one would it be?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

Might it have to be St. Andrews, really. Yeah. Have to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

Old or one of the other ones?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

No, the old course. The old course. You just walk round it. I I when I first played in the open there in 78, I hated it. I hated it. And then when I played in 84, I actually quite liked it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

I had one of I had one of the best experiences I've ever had on a golf course at the old course last May. And um, it's a special place, it's just so special. And um, we we went into the lottery to get or the the draw uh to get onto the old course. We didn't have a connection. And the day before we'd went up to old Tom Morris's grave and paid our respects and took a little whiskey to him. And you know, it's just there's something very, very magical about that place. I mean, there's there's prettier golf courses, there's harder golf courses, there's there's all those things, but there's just something about that old course that is it's a different dimension.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Yeah, yeah, it's just familiar.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

So once again, I cannot thank you enough. Um, the spiral code, I I hope you're proud of that. I think you've you've given it best effort to get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

Yeah, Jonathan, Jonathan uh Craddock's done a great job. He's done all the work, Jonathan, that's worked for us in Dubai, and with the help of Steve and uh Alistair in there in Dubai. They've helped they've all helped. So and they've been with us an awful long time. And you know, if anybody wants a lesson, they're they're the guys out in Dubai, there's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

Yeah, I mean, it it's just an incredible platform. It's well thought out. Uh, Jonathan does an amazing job of explaining things. They you've got your videos in there as well, which are very, very good and impactful. Uh, but I I can't stress that enough. If you're a young coach and you're looking for some direction, the spiral code is a phenomenal place to be. Uh, a great place to learn from Mr. Pete Cowan and some of his closest associates. So super good stuff there. If you're interested, uh Pete doesn't do a ton of social media. Uh, I think that's fair to say. Uh yeah, but there is some uh there is some stuff out there you can find by searching Pete Cowan Gall.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

It gets it gets put on there. I don't do it, but it gets put on as I said, the one that has most views is the right arm spin down with with uh Danny Maud, and it's had over five million views.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Yeah, so people like what you have to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Well, and that's what I get asked for in America when it might mainly say, you know, how do you spin the right arm down properly, Pete? How do you do this? You know, so it's obviously not explained well enough because when you do it right, it's so easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

Yeah. And I I think you've mentioned that before, too, is so many people, and it's not just you, and it's it's not just me, but so many people take our information from these videos and they misinterpret it and then they think that it doesn't work or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

Well, a lot of people rubbish it and say rubbish, that's rubbish because they don't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

And again, opinions are what opinions. Just look at facts. Don't look at opinions, look at facts.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

Yeah. And uh I it's a fact that we've had one of the most, if not the most successful uh golf coach to ever do it on the Measured Golf podcast today. And Pete, I can't thank you enough for your time. And the last thing I wanted to share with you, uh, I have a lot, and this is gonna answer a question for some people that follow me. A lot of people ask me why I wear black all the time. Do you know why I wear black all the time, Pete? It's easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

Nope, because uh and if you look at if you look at a lot of coaches, they do it now as well. Boyd, Boyd does it as well. Yeah, Boyd Summerhaze. He's the Kevin Kirk's always in black.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

Yeah. I I like to tell people it's it's my homage to Mr. Pete Cowan. So Pete, you've been a uh a great source of inspiration and somebody that I really admire and look up to. And once again, thank you so much for doing this podcast. I really appreciate it. It means a lot to me, and I hope it means a lot to our listeners. But that does it for the Measured Golf podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:17

Uh but you know why I do wear black? Why? You know why I do wear black? Because I've not found a darker color yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

And that that's a great closing line. Uh, but yeah, I mean it's it's been great. But if you're interested uh in learning more about what we have, what we do, uh be sure to find us wherever you download your favorite podcast. You can also find the video version of this on our Measured Golf YouTube channel. Uh, we look forward to seeing you there. Leave us lots of comments. I will do my best to relay them to Mr. Cowan because he is not doing that. So uh once again, special thanks to Pete Cowan. Give him a follow, uh, find him online, and be sure to check out thespiralcode uh.com. It's a great place for coaches or people just wanting to get better on their own golf game. So thanks again, and until next time, keep grinding.