You Can Love Golf And Still Be Critical

Golf season is back, but the vibe around the game feels… complicated. We talk honestly about why so many golfers feel torn between playing what they love and playing what helps them score, from blades versus forgiveness to the bigger question of whether you’re out there to enjoy the challenge or squeeze every last stroke out of the round. That personal tension gets amplified when tee sheets are stacked, pace of play crawls, and basic golf etiquette like raking bunkers and fixing ball marks feels optional.

Then we zoom out to the economics of modern golf. Equipment prices keep climbing, green fees keep rising, and premium destinations charge premium dollars even when course conditions do not match the hype. We dig into what’s driving it: supply and demand, private equity and for-profit ownership models, sky-high initiation fees, and the long-term consequences of boards and operators choosing short-term savings over maintenance. If you care about public golf, accessible golf, and the future of the game, this part hits home.

The back half turns into a straight-up mental game session. We unpack bad rounds, unexpected misses, and the fast slide from “I’m fine” to “I never want to play again.” The big takeaway is simple and brutal: if you can’t accept the possibility of shooting 82, golf will break you sooner or later. We share what helps us recover under pressure, stay accountable, and keep perspective when the brain starts lying.

If this resonates, subscribe, share it with a golf buddy who needs it, and leave a review so more players can find the show. What part of golf feels most broken to you right now?

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Transcript

Golf Season And Club Choices

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listener, sit down and join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And we're going. Chuck's playing golf. I'm playing golf. Believe it or not. I know that's probably more of a surprise than Chuck playing golf, but we are actually in golf season. It's here. The weather's beautiful. I know people are out in droves. I can tell that just by trying to find a place to go play golf here in Ann Arbor, Michigan. The T-sheets are stacked. So people are out. People are getting after it. And uh it's a great time to be alive.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Uh yeah, I'm I'm just always excited when you're out playing golf and getting in the mix of it and figuring out clubs and what you like and don't like.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

And I always like the same thing. It's just the problem is what I like is is passing me by a little bit. And as I maybe get a little older and a little wiser, it's like, yeah, I really like these blades, but at the same time, I wouldn't wouldn't mind to have a little forgiveness, too. It's uh it's a weird, weird place to be. But you know, it's it's one of those things to where, and I think we're gonna come on to it a little bit later, but it's one of those things to where are you out there to enjoy the experience or are you out there to perform at the best level? And for me, there's a lot of you've seen my setup. I carry a McKenzie bag. Um, I didn't do it on our trip, but I'm I'm known to have that R7 uh 282 head in my bag, blades and my TP Mills putter. And a lot of that's just because that's what I enjoy to play golf with. And yeah, I could put some shovels in the bag and probably shoot a couple scores or a couple shots lower, but at the end of the day, like what are you there to do? Are you there to enjoy it and embrace the challenge, or are you there trying to squeeze every stroke out of a round? And that's where that's where I haven't really I haven't figured out the the place to be yet. I'm I'm still I want to do what I want to do, but at the same time I care about my score and likely, you know, the problem is I don't really miss the middle of the face that much. It's it's more of a directional issue, so it's hard for me to say, hey, it's time to hang up the blades, but at the same time, it'd be really nice to have something just easy to launch up in the air and and just go out and feel like you can't miss with.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Have you played more golf to this point in 2026 than you had in all of 2025? No.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

I played a lot early last year. Okay. Yeah. This year, I mean it's uh I'm still single digits on rounds for the year.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

So you've played less. I mean, you acted like you didn't play at all last year. So you did play some last year.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

No, I I played a fair amount early last year, and then as the season kind of progressed and I got busier, it just kind of started slipping and slipping. And then I really after I played golf

Scotland Standards And Public Golf

SPEAKER_02 3:05

in Scotland, I I think I've told you this, and I think I've said it on the podcast too, but after playing in Scotland, it just kind of kind of ruined me for the rest of the year, and I'm still getting over that a little bit. And just as a clarification, played well in Scotland, had an amazing trip, got to play some amazing venues, including the old course at St. Andrews. But it's just so pure over there. And people walk, take caddies, uh, count their score honestly. Uh don't have this like handicap nonsense that we have over here. Um, it's just there's a lot more honor to the game over there than there is here. And it's just it's really tough. And we've talked about for me personally, I don't belong to a club anywhere, nor would I. It's not really what I'm into. But you know, I'm a public golfer by and large, and and the public golf scene right now is just not great. And trying to practice and trying to get excited about going out and playing a golf course with footmarks in the bunkers and and ball marks all over the greens and really slow pace of play and just all that stuff. It's it's it's tough to want to go out there and do that, but I'm not ready, nor am I financially well off enough to join a club. So it's I kind of have to make my peace with it. It's another one of those things. It's like my club choice. Gotta make my peace and gotta kind of know what I'm signing up for when I go out there.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah. I know how you feel. I when I was moving around for work, I had um one spot that I wasn't gonna be there long enough.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

So I only in Texas?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Uh no, this was in um Nashville. Um just wasn't gonna be there long enough to join anything, and it was close enough to Chattanooga. Um but when I was in so I played a lot of public golf there. Joined a club in Texas that it might as well have been a public golf course um with the things that you talk about seeing. I mean, this was uh like you know, people in and nothing not that there's anything wrong with playing the music and having the crazy outfits, but it was just like keep it to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

That's all I ask. I don't care if you do that, but just like it shouldn't interfere three holes over.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah, it it was a lot of that. It was a lot of it's a hundred and five degrees outside, and these people are jumping up and down when the beverage cart comes around and to do fireball shots, and I'm so I can get how certain playing golf a certain way can get you not excited um about playing golf or enthused about the culture of golf at the moment. So I I get that.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, it's just in an interesting spot. Um and it's gonna be interesting to see where it goes. Like I I've been saying this for a while. There's going to be a market correction for golf.

Equipment Prices And A Coming Correction

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Uh it can't it can't sustain where it's currently at. You know, you you go back and you know, forever, for years, drivers cost $500. Like if you wanted the top offering from titleist or tailor made or whoever, even I mean, I'm talking early 2000s, um, drivers were 500 bucks, like that's what they cost. A putter cost you a buck fifty unless it was a Scotty Cameron, and then then it costs you know 300 bucks. Um things had prices, wedges were 125, a set of irons was like 850 to 1,000. And now you look at a driver, if you want the the new tailor made or new tidalist or whatever, you know, with just a stock shaft, god forbid, in this day and age, you know, it's it's what is it, 650, 700 bucks for the stock one? Yeah, I mean it's it's if not more. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's wild to see where everything's gone. I noticed it this year, you know, it's always as long as I can remember, if you buy title as pro v ones, they're always like 55 bucks a dozen, and then everything else kind of slots in. The the premium ball offerings, they all slot in at like the $50 mark. And this year, I I you know, I was coming on that trip with you out to California, um, and I stopped to buy some bridgestones because I wanted to play some bridgestone balls. I'm kind of mixing it up a little bit, and I noticed that they were $55 a dozen. And I'm like, well, I guess Bridgetone said, why not just slot in at the same price point as Titleist? And you just kind of see all these companies doing it. You've seen you know, Odyssey do it with their putters, you've seen you know, everybody kind of just fall in line with where's that top tier? Where what can we get away with? And everybody's just kind of falling in. But I wonder where the sustainability is because golf equipment costs more, the round of golf costs more. I mean, it it's absurd what golf courses around here are charging. Uh, I'm not gonna throw anybody under the bus because it's a free market and they're welcome to do what they want to do. And and look, their T-sheets are full, so they're gonna do what they're gonna do. But I don't think any of these golf course operators are actually thinking to themselves about the experience the golfers having out there. Because to your point, as long as there's a car girl that's willing to put up with, you know, kind of some knucklehead behavior and and they get paid well, you know, we're gonna continue to see the tailgating on the golf course and and the operators are happy because their T-sheets are full. But if you're somebody out there trying to have a round of golf and and trying to really, in my opinion, break embrace what golf is, it's it's tough, man, and and the experience for us just isn't very good at all.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yeah, I I'm curious with initiation fees. Um because you're seeing it in some parts of the country, Florida being a a big one of these clubs uh I mean they're the golf courses are good, but they're not $750,000 initiation good. Um and yeah, I wonder when that takes a hit. The clubs, like you're saying, the balls. Um the fact that Pinehurst charges are they charging $800 for number two to play that?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

I I'm it's something it's something crazy. Yeah, and I mean the stadium course I think is like $750, $800, maybe more. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah. Uh so you're right, free market, you know, keep charging what you're charging. I I just and maybe for some people it it's worth it.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Like, I'll that's their I mean you had a great point when we were playing Pasa Tiempo. You know, there were four guys in front of us that and look, man, like they paid for their green fees, they have the same right to be there as we do. Uh I'm not trying to say that they they shouldn't have been out there, but they they shouldn't have been out there, right? Like they just don't have the skills necessary to handle a golf course like that. And you made the comment, I would love to know what they do for a living because why why on God's green earth would you come out here and spend five hundred dollars to just get your teeth kicked down your throat like that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

And you know, they weren't really respecting the golf course. We watched plenty of it.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

I don't think they raked bunkers, I don't think they fixed ball marks, and yeah, you know, I put a lot of it, a lot of this problem, it it's always been there. You know, is as long as golf has been around, there's always been complaints about bunkers not being raked and and pitch marks on greens not being fixed and things like that. But, you know, I think a lot of it unfortunately has to do with the fact that we live in such a digital age. And, you know, for me, you know, I I showed up at a golf course because my dad was at the golf course. And granted, he played in a beer league, and he certainly didn't and didn't teach me the finer points of gentlemanly behavior on the golf course. But, you know, at the same time, like you fixed ball marks, you raked bunkers, you did that stuff. And I think, you know, my generation and and probably your generation to a certain point, you know, you were introduced to the game by by family, you were introduced with friends, but you you kind of learned, and I don't even want to call them unwritten rules, they're not really unwritten rules, but you kind of learned the etiquette of the game uh through somebody that was kind of shepherding you through your first few rounds of golf. And with so many people during COVID picking up the game because it was really the only game in town that they could do, so many people kind of went the YouTube route, which is fine, right? But they they went the YouTube route to kind of learn how to get into the game and and how to swing the club and things like that. And there's not a video on YouTube about fixing ball marks and raking bunkers, like it doesn't exist because nobody would watch it. Uh, you know, I know that stuff, but then people never do it. It's just like I said, I don't know, don't know where the future of the game's heading right now, but I think it's in a it's in a weird spot, and I think the market correction is going to be biblical because so many years golf has been a mom and pop industry, and you know, people were taking third and fourth mortgages on their home to keep the golf course open because it's been in the family for a while and things like that. But so much of golf now is in the hands of private equity, and when things make a downturn, private equity generally doesn't hang on to things, they they got them and they sell them. So I'm gonna be real interested to see where golf's at in another 10 to 15 years, because there there has to be some kind of correction for where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, I think that's been the two things that have been looming in the uh the golf space. Um the club that is owned by a group, whether it be private equity or some umbrella company, uh these like Arcus or Dominion, these companies that they're they're in business to make a profit. When um

Private Equity Clubs And Board Decisions

SPEAKER_01 13:10

I I struggled with the membership at this one club in Texas, that they would get upset about certain things, and I would say, Well, then as the membership, buy your club. Be be a member-owned club, otherwise, yeah, this company that owns you is gonna continue to try and make a profit, and that's why you're seeing these prices go up. When, as you know very well, being in the club space for a long time, you're if it's a member-owned club, you're not trying to make money. And you you're gonna lose money in a lot of areas, and your dues and your initiation fees are kind of helping you plot along, and the um uh so I I I think that is a big piece of it of what you're saying of these corporations owning or the model of it's more of a real estate play, and the golf course is there, but they're there to sell the lots. I mean, you see it with Discovery Land Company, they go in, they make this incredible over-the-top um project, and they are only in it until that last lot is sold. And the golf then gets kicked back to the members, or um you know, that's kind of the the afterthought. But once once that lot's sold, the last lot's sold, they're they're out, their real estate play is done. So yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see because a lot of new golf courses have come online with that real estate play, or they are a for-profit entity. When that it's as you know, you can speak to that way better than I can. That a for-profit golf course, that's tough.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Tough sluting for sure. And you know, it's cyclical, right? Like it down in Florida, there's a million of these like little tiny clubs. Uh, and and to your point, the club only was built, and it wasn't an over-the-top property, it was just a very ho-hum, somebody you never heard of designed the club because they wanted to give it a go. Um, but there's a lot of these clubs that sprung up in the 80s and 90s, uh, to where it was there, it was a real estate deal. That's all it was, is the club existed so that they could add value to the lot that they were selling.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

And the golf courses are usually terrible.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah, often they're terrible. But there's a million of them in Florida. A million of them. Yeah. And the problem is, is to your point, is is once the once the sugar daddy's out of the situation, right? Once the developer's gone and the money dries up and they stop writing the checks, and now the golf club has to be financially responsible, it it all goes bad, and and bunkers stop getting fixed and greens stop getting aerated. And, you know, these decisions that these people, and this is the problem that I have. And I don't disagree with you. I I think a membership-owned club is always going to be a better option than a privately held club or a corporately held club. But the problem is that so many of these membership-owned golf courses have people on their board who have zero business being on the board, like zero. They have no experience in that that area at all, and then they make stupid decisions like, well, how much does it cost to aerate the greens? Well, we'll skip that this year because we can we can take that money and use it for this other thing. And you do that for a couple years, and the greens are just I told you about the course I played the other day that obviously hasn't done it for a couple years, and you want to talk about making your greens bad in a hurry, don't aerate them for a couple years because it is truly bad what it will do to a green. They get so bouncy so quick it's unreal.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah, and the the um clubs and and the the people that are just getting into golf, they don't understand that there's a lifespan to everything on a golf course, whether it's bunkers, subsurface of greens, irrigation systems, everything has a lifespan. And everything has to be redone. It doesn't matter what course you're at, everything has to be redone. Um mowers don't last forever. Mowers don't last. There's just a lot of a lot of cost to things.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

So I'll be interested to see what what happens to some of these places when I think that's why you're seeing so many of these new properties, you know, they don't have the swimming pool, they don't have the community center, they don't have all of those things because by and large, a lot of those those things that people view as assets, you lose lose your pants on. I mean, I've I've yet to see a swimming pool turn a profit. It's it's unreal how expensive swimming pools are, and they just drain the funds like you wouldn't believe. So yeah, I mean, I I think it's weird. I I think we're in a place now to where I just wonder about the next generation. Like, you know, is is golf is golf really accessible? Are we really

Is Golf Still Accessible

SPEAKER_02 18:20

growing the game or is it only going to be for the privileged few? And it just seems like at the price point we're currently at, it's it's pretty clear cut. It's going to be for the privileged few, and a lot of people just aren't going to be able to afford to get get in the gate.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, it will uh because the first clubs to go will be the ones right now that are you know, quote, affordable. Um the downturn, like those things will be gone because that segment of people that is there's one closing this week, not far from me. Really, yeah. I mean, it it's it's gonna happen really fast. Um so that talking about is the game accessible, like the people that are attempting to be in at that price point, um, and that thing it'll just go away so fast because they that will be one of the first things that a family thinks about are we spending money on the right things if things get tight? And so those clubs will disappear, and then you'll it'll just be even harder.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

And then the gap gets wider, right? Between private and public. Yeah, yeah. Um, which is, I mean, there's already a problem with that. There's you know, allegedly, and I disagree entirely that we've grown the game so much since COVID. I uh once again, I think we've invited the telgators to the golf course. I don't think we've actually made new golfers, if you will. But the the problem is is that we've got all these people looking for golf, whether for the right reasons, wrong reasons, it doesn't matter. But you know, where are they gonna go? Because we didn't all of a sudden build the infrastructure for all these new people. We didn't start building, and look, you don't hear of public golf courses being built, you don't hear of it. And when I say public, what I actually mean is like a round of golf that costs less than 50 bucks.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah, like that's public golf, and it's it's not build it for that, and like you the costs you can't build it for that, and you can't charge $50 because no bank in America would lend you the money because you can't show a pro forma that pencils out, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

And that's the problem, right? So we have like less and less of that, so we're gonna have less and less people that are able to go out and try golf for it. I mean, I I just do the math every time, like I just played a round of golf yesterday, uh, at a municipality golf course. And and look, they do an amazing job uh for what it is. I I don't want to to talk smack about this place in any way, shape, or form. It's actually a pretty nice track for for being public, but it was, I think, 55 bucks for me. And I'm just thinking to myself, like, if I'm a dad and I want to bring out my two kids and my wife, and we're gonna have a family day at the go, this is 200 bucks. Like, there's not a lot of families that can show out 200 bucks a go plus equipment, plus you know what I like. I mean, the the pluses add up very quickly with golf. And I I'm just sitting here thinking, like, who's gonna be left to play the game?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah. But a little scary. Yeah. I'll be interested to see what happens, especially with do the do the high-end clubs does the cost ever come back down?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

When does it ever?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

You know, I I don't know. I don't know that we'll quite ever shouldn't say that. That we won't ever quite have an O eight again, but I I don't know that you would see the cost come back down to that level, but um it'll just be really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I mean, this is probably just my my personal stuff coming up a little bit, but it's like, you know, if that when that happens, I hope people just stay away. You screwed us for so long. You you kicked us all like when they need us, they want us in, and now they're willing to lower the prices and let people back in the door. But then when things are good, they're like, oh, we'll see you later. We're good now. We'll take it from here. You know, it's it's almost like you hope you like to see some of those kind of live and die by the sword instead of just living by it all the time. Um it'll be go ahead. Go, you're good.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

It it'll be interesting to see um some of these clubs that they've really kind of branded themselves as a as a national club. Um, a good example is this uh fall line that's in South Georgia, I believe. Um looks like a great spot, super cool design. I think what they've essentially done is you can be a member, but when you show up, and and people can jump in the comments if I'm incorrect, but I believe you join, and every time you go, even for the member, it's like a thousand bucks, but that's kind of covering your food and your um housing, and that's the guest rate too. That's kind of your hey, a thousand bucks come hang out all day. Um you know, what are those places? What what happens there? Less people taking the the golf trip. Um but maybe those places are so insulated that it doesn't matter. I don't know. I'm I'm curious to see because there's I mean, we were talking about it this morning.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

I Chuck uh had reached out to me and we were talking about a few things, and I happen to be watching the Formula One practice in Monaco about every 30 seconds. I'd be like, Chuck, what are we doing? Why are we not in Monaco? And it's like you look at Monaco and you go, Oh, there's a lot of people in the world that have a whole lot of money. Yeah, and it's there's more of those people than you can believe. And it's yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe it's just so insulated. And honestly, golf's not one of those everyman games. It's it's it it just isn't. And I I hate that. I wish I really wish it was more accessible. I I really do. Like that's always been something uh that's for whatever reason been kind of ingrained into me. And I remember growing up and having to work my way. Like, if it hadn't been for the driving range exploiting labor laws, um, I wouldn't be a golfer, and I would hate to think where my life would be as a non-golfer because, like I've said to you, golf has just kind of transformed my life and given me this incredible pathway to you know take care of my family and to to do some amazing things and to kind of chase out my dreams and passions. So I would hate to think where I would be without it, but without that job, without kind of working into it, I I would not be here because I wouldn't be able to afford it.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Maybe it'll be too insulated, or I still think supply and demand. I I I think that law reigns true. Is there gonna be too much supply, not enough demand? Um I'd hate to see these really cool properties and something happen to them, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

I just think right now the demand is so high that they can get away with just murder. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

The fact that we paid five hundred dollars to play Posity Impo on greens that should never be allowed at a

Paying Premium Prices For Mediocre Conditions

SPEAKER_01 25:45

place charging that much. That's but that's where they're at. They the the course condition doesn't it can be whatever it wants to be. We can still charge these prices.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yep. Hey, we got the Western Intercollegiate, 500 bucks, come get it. And you know that there's people coming and getting it.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah, and they got me, they they sucked me in.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

I was I was um it was it makes me sad how excited you were about that.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

I was, and I was so disappointed with it.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, I I was worried that Cyprus was gonna be that for me, what you went through at Pasa Tempo, because I'd built it up a bunch, and I I kind of almost feel like that's that's where it all went wrong for you. I don't think it was that bad. I don't disagree with you about the greens. I thought the greens were not where they should be, uh for sure. But I also feel like maybe you had built that one up a bit, and then when it was when it underdelivered, that was just the crippler for you. Yeah, and I was talking to uh plus we played Cyprus that morning, so no matter what we played that afternoon, like it just wasn't gonna cut it.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

I just I love McKinsey courses and uh Tita Green.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

I think that place is great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

My my buddy Blaine Woodruff, when I told him when we got back how the greens reacted, he was like, Oh, that sounds awful! Like you didn't even really play the golf course because you didn't get like we were talking about a specific hole where my ball stayed on a downslope, and he was like, Oh, yeah, no, that's not that's impossible. I said, Oh no, that was how it was all day, all day.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And I mean, like, I remember, you know, after a couple holes of seeing the ball just look like it hit a parking lot, yeah, like you start playing the front edge all day long, yeah, and then every now and then one just stays there, and you're like, Oh well, now I got a 90-foot putt over 14 swells. Like, let's see how this goes. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's it is. I I think the golf courses are getting away with murder, and you know, I think I think I think if I'm a golf course operator right now, sell. Get out, sell, get your premium, yeah, like get out now. Because there is there is a writing of this ship coming. And I look, I I hope people keep receipts. I really do. When look, I'm talking about the public golfer here. Uh you know, I that's who I am. But I hope golfers keep receipts, and I hope when things get tough and these golf courses come begging and do everything they can to get you back. I hope you remember this. I really do because it's they've done it to themselves and they've run away their core customer because they've got some guy willing to ruin it for everybody, willing to pay $25 more around, and they're catering to that guy right now.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah.

Amateur Events And Association Frustrations

SPEAKER_01 28:35

I also don't uh I don't like that um me who plays competitive golf, um, and maybe it's just our our uh golf association in the state of Tennessee, but the places that are now hosting big events the the state am sites are still good, but the mid-am, the four-ball, um the qualifiers, the fact that they can't get any decent courses to host this stuff because they're and I get it, they're full the membership I get all that, but it it's very frustrating when you've got to go to some pretty underwhelming places.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

It's the same up here. The state opens next next week, and where they're playing at, I mean, it's fine, but it's it's set. I mean, it my problem with the one here is that it's all the way up north, which is fine. But if you're unfamiliar with the state of Michigan, I live in Ann Arbor, and to get up north where I'm talking about is three, four hours away. So you're up there, you're in a hotel, it's tourist season, everybody's going up north. Uh, the hotels are ungodly expensive, and you're playing a relative to the golf courses that are up, and there are spectacular golf courses up north, but relative to those, the place they're playing is very average. So I I just I hate, I agree with you, man. I I think there's just no it's all for profit right now. And and I look, like you said, the clubs that are nice don't want to give up the golf course for a few days because the membership gets bananas and all that stuff. Like I I get it too, but you know, are we are we here to are we here to be good stewards of the game or are we here to be businessmen?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

And that that's where I was about to go is that this newer the the people in charge on the boards that are making these decisions and that are not golf savvy, that's where we've gotten to, is they're like, ah, we don't want to give up the golf course in the middle of the week to our weekday members um who are playing, and where they should be like, hey, this is an honor that we can host this, and we should be proud of this, and we need to do this. This is how we support our golf association and the state, and this is how we give back.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

I think the golf associations are the big problem too, and it starts with the PGA, the USGA. Like, the look, these people, most of them are not very wise when it comes to golf. And the other thing is that most of the money that comes through the door is to pay their salaries and to pay for their trips and to pay for all this other stuff, and that that's got to stop. Like, there's just way too much overhead with these associations. Um, it's like my my PGA dues, I just got the thing. I'm not paying them until the very last day. So if the PGA's listening, kiss my ass, um, like I'll give it to you when I give it to you. And you're lucky I'm giving it to you because you do nothing for me. Um, but it's it's ridiculous. My dues went up again this year, and it's it's like I'm a small business, I'm a small business owner. That money is directly coming out of my pocket, and I literally might as well pull out six hundred and twelve dollars or whatever it is and light it on fire. And look, I'll be the first one to tell you one of the proudest days of my life was when I became a PGA member. That that it still does mean a lot to me, but what we get is nothing, like they do nothing to support us, they do nothing to promote me, they do not, and look, I'm not trying to make it sound like me, me, me. It's it's all of us. And the fact that more PGA professionals aren't upset about this is the problem. But the reason they're not is because it's part of their compensation plan and the club picks up the tap, so the PGA just keeps ratcheting up the dues every year because they know that the club's gonna pay because they got to have their guys have PGA behind their last name. Yeah, it's a joke, man. And that's that's a big part of the problem. That's why the prize pools are down, that's why the venues are down. They don't they want the golf course to volunteer the golf course. Well, no, if if we didn't have 14 people on payroll that do nothing, then maybe we could pay the golf course a decent wage to let us run it out for a few days.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah, yeah. I've heard you be not so kind about your PGA uh upper management.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Um I just have a problem with authority in general.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

I I I I mean, and I can't speak to that. I I I feel bad for the Tennessee Golf Association because I I do feel like they're trying to get hey, we're trying to do a good job, we're trying to run events that people want to play in, and you're getting too many clubs that are like, oh yeah, we can't like no way we give up the golf course on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And I'm just thinking you you th this is an honor that you that they would want to have you host this, and you're you're saying that the 3500 Yeah, I just it that part really bothers me because it's just it's not it's I hate to say it, man, and maybe this is what we've been dancing around the whole time, but it's just it it's a for golf is a for-profit game in this country.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

It just is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

It's not about the the honor and the timeless traditions and integrity and like all those things that you know we grew up with. That's just kind of out the window now, man. And it's all Gordon Gecko, greed is good, right? It's it's unfortunate, but I think we've kind of danced around that the whole time, but I kind of feel like that's where it's at.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

But it's uh like I just got done playing in the state four ball, and this the golf course that we were at. Um I thought the TGA did a great job of um running the event. I I didn't feel like the club is almost like, oh, here they are, like coming to play golf hour, like you know, not very welcoming and not not excited to host the event. Um on top of that, it's a awful golf course. Um it it's awful. Um thank goodness they have good greens or that place would be unplayable. Um but uh I just I I I hate that that's how it's gotten that that these people I I think the state am is is still um the state does a good job of getting those host sites, but even even the membership at one of my clubs, they they just kind of like one wants to host events and one has a a group that doesn't want to host events, and they just kind of roll their eyes that oh we got we got this event coming, oh they're gonna take up our whole golf course. Oh, you know, I just I hate that. It drives me nuts, and that's the reason we're not playing at great places.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah, I mean it's it's difficult. I've certainly been down this this road with being a professional, working on the club side of the business, you know, there there's a reason that really high-functioning, really well-run clubs are that way. And generally it's because there's a plan, and it's not a year-to-year plan, it's it's a long-term plan. Um, you see great clubs do it, and you know, I I get there's always gonna, no matter what club you're at, no matter what the initiation fee is, there's always gonna be that group of people that wants to squeeze every nickel they can out of their membership. Like that's there's always that group there. They don't want to lose a golf course for a single day, they don't want to be assessed, they don't want to pay, like they spend zero dollars at the club, uh, they're just there to squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. There's always that group no matter where you're at. That's just the the nature of human beings. With that said, and an effective club can't have one of those guys on the board. You you you can't have those guys ruin it for everybody. Because I think if you have people who are trying to actually honor the game, grow the the brand of the club, and really do what's gonna be best long term for the game of golf, you have people that are like, hey, these are the tournaments that we're interested in hosting, these are the dates that we're gonna give up the golf course. January 1, everybody gets the email, gets the bulletin, like, hey, these are the days that this club's not gonna be open this year, and rock and roll. And everybody just kind of makes their peace with it. But I think a lot of times the clubs don't want to give up their golf course because they don't do a great job communicating with their membership that, hey, this is who we are, this is what we believe in. And just so you know, when you sign up, you know, there's gonna be 14 days a year where the club is closed that isn't a Monday, and the reason it's gonna be closed is because we're gonna be doing this. And I think if you do a good job communicating that to your A, you get rid of the squeeze guys, which you know you want to get rid of those guys anyway, but you get rid of the squeeze guys, but everybody's on board, it's just people don't like to show up to the club on a Tuesday thinking they're gonna go out and play a quick nine because they had a break in their day, and then they find out it's closed for uh an outing or for some kind of tournament. That's what really drives the membership nuts, and rightly so. Yeah, so we went. I never thought we were getting here today, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

I didn't either. We went down. Um let's change it up so we're not completely negative the whole time. That we can give have we been negative the whole time? Yeah, not negative, it's not been negative, critical. I like we've been critical, critical. I'm okay with critical. I'm okay with critical. But that's good to be critical.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

You have to be, you have to be in with I don't know how many people care about this either, you know. But I think more people need to care. And you know,

Be The Change On The Course

SPEAKER_02 39:00

like you said it, and I was so happy to hear you say it, but uh a couple episodes ago, you're like, be the change, be the change, and like that's I'm I'm using that rally call now, like be the change. Like, if you're somebody that's seeing stuff at your golf course that you don't like, and and it's a private club, and you know, the elections are coming up, run. Like, you know, try try to make some change, try to try to figure this thing out from the inside because we need people who who care about the game and are passionate about the game to be in these leadership positions. And right now, man, we just got a bunch of bean counters that are trying to make as much as they can.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Yeah, be be the change, be the guy in the group. Um I don't ride a ton, hardly ever, but if I do, I'm the guy that is when I fill my divot with sand, I typically there's probably four others on the way back to the car. I'm feeling I'm feeling them as I go. I'm the guy that is uh I'm fixing my ball mark. I'm fine, I'm when I walk by another one, I'm fixing that one. And and you start to guys notice that guys that you're playing with, people start to notice that and they'll start to do the same thing. Want to take good care of I don't I don't care if it's my club or not. I um and and I'm even more cognizant if I'm actually and you're not this isn't braggadocious.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

This is I've witnessed this. Like you, you don't miss it. Uh I try not to miss it. You know, it's I remember at I can't remember if it's Monterey Peninsula Country Club or Cyprus, uh, I kept like screwing up because I kept trying to go after my divot to put it back in. And the other, no, no, no, don't, you know, it's it's like that's just the habit of hey, this is what you do on a golf course. And you're right. And as somebody who plays a lot of public golf and plays with golfers who don't play at the same level I do, people and and look, I am not trying to say I'm the one that everybody should copy by any stretch of the imagination. But uh yesterday when we were out playing golf, these two guys we got paired up with, uh, I had a client with me that I was playing golf with as well. And he was like, These these guys are like trying to emulate you, like they're trying to do the same stuff you do, and and that's that's true, and they did. Uh, and I I noticed it, and I've noticed it before with other people as well. Um, but it's the same thing with your behaviors and your mannerisms and the things you do on the golf course. And if you're doing the right things, generally people will start falling in line.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah, yeah, just be be the yeah, be the change. People people notice it and they'll be like, Oh, why you do that? I want I want to take care of it.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Like, yeah, we should if you want to listen to music on the golf course, listen to music on the golf course at a reasonable volume. Do not be bringing your ghetto blaster out and cranking it to 11 so that the whole freaking golf course has to. Like, I don't, I don't want to come off as like, I don't want, I don't want music on the golf course. I don't want, I don't care what you do on the golf course as long as it doesn't affect anybody else. It's kind of my policy for everything. Like, do do you like I'm not here to pass judgment or tell you what's right or wrong, but don't let it affect everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

We're done being critical for the day.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Well, we got it all out. Chuck is making a commitment to be less critical. I I'm not sure I'm ready to go there just yet.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Well, no, I'm I'm not I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm gonna be less critical. Uh I'm certainly not saying that.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Chuck and me are both both fired up. We both had bad mental days on the golf course yesterday. So we're both kind of trying to figure that out. We can be critical about ourselves, that's always fun.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Um I'm always down to be critical by myself, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

That's the biggest. Oh my god, there's so many times I just want to hit you in the head. You're like, hey man, you're doing fine, you're doing well.

Confidence, Doubt, And Bad Misses

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Yeah, but it's tough, man. I mean, it's you know, kind of switching gears a little bit. I played golf yesterday, Chuck played golf yesterday. I'll let you, I'll let Chuck talk about himself. I'm not gonna talk talk for him. But you know, it's just I go back to the quote a lot because I think it's such a great quote. But Brooks talks about hitting a bad shot. And if he controlled the controllables, did his process, did his routine, and hits a bad shot, he can live with it. Like that's a human mistake. But if he doesn't do his process or he doesn't do his routine, and he doesn't control the controllables, pulls the trigger anyway, and then hits a bad shot, then he's irate. And you know, yesterday I go out to a beautiful day here in Michigan playing a golf course, like I said, that's nice enough. And with a client who's a a fun, fun, like great guy to play golf with. Like we we had a blast. You know, it's just you get out there and it's just funny how your brain starts engaging with what you're trying to do and your thought processes and your confidence levels. And all of that stuff. And yesterday, I just I don't know, man. I just didn't have a lot of confidence. And when you don't have that confidence and you have that doubt and that lingering voice in the back of your head, and I didn't hit any balls before we played, like I just drove straight to the golf course and teed it up, which was never a good recipe for me in the first place. But you know, it's I had a couple, I don't normally miss it to the right. I the first few shots I hit kind of came out right. And it just, man, I I was very disappointed, and we talked about this yesterday. I was very just disappointed with how I responded emotionally and mentally to that. And instead of figuring it out and being committed to the solution and sticking to my targets and trying to kind of work through it, I just mentally, man, just couldn't get over the hump yesterday. And it was so frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

I think it is hard though. You you said you you hit a couple shots that you don't typically see and not in your miss pattern. I think that is one of the harder things in golf to see. Um and it it can I think it can really mess with you because you're not used to it. So you're not, you're also not. Um you talked about we talked about yesterday, you know, owning your swing. And um so you you if you own your swing, you typically know what your faults are and what your tendencies are. So when you see something that isn't in that camp, it can be a little jarring. Yeah, I think so. Like I know I missed one. Okay, I know that I didn't do this that I've been working on, but you missed one the other way, and it's like, uh I don't know, I don't know what that is. I don't I don't have that miss.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah, it was weird because I the funny thing was is like I missed right all day. Um it wasn't just early, but my misses when I missed all day were right, like block cuts. Um, but the funny thing was I hit them right out of the middle of the club, yeah. And like that's where it gets because it's like, okay, well, I can't obviously the swing isn't terrible because I'm hitting the middle of the face, yeah, but somehow the face is like wide open, and you know, I've never been somebody who you know really feels a lot through the hands and the wrist and things like that, so there's like clearly something there, but you're right. I mean, it's very it's very unsettling because it's like one thing if you go to the driving range before the round and you have some uncommon misses pop up, and at least you got some time to like try to find your normal. But in like the moment when you're out trying to play and you've got this weird miss going on, it's like you said, maybe, maybe that's it, maybe it's just very unsettling. And where I've played so little golf so far this year, I just really didn't have the experience to kind of like get through that. But I did not. I I just really kind of let myself down and really just hit some, you know. I mean, I think I shot like 78 or 79. I mean, it wasn't like holy crap, but at the same time, it's a pretty easy public golf course. Uh should be playing a little better than that, score-wise. Um, but yeah, just it was a weird day because when I would feel like I had like my normal miss is I'll overdraw one, like that's my typical miss. And the ones that I've I hit off the T that I was like, oh boy, that one's left. It those were like the ones down the middle. It was weird. That's true. Yeah, it was a weird, it was a weird round of golf.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah, that's always hard. I I think it's really hard when you hit one. Um and you ex you you know, like you you hit enough golf balls, you play enough golf, you know how it should feel. Yeah, and like you hit it, and you're thinking you're gonna look up and see it in a certain spot, and it's not there. That is that's a nervy feeling for me. I don't that one will get me.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah, and it's like experience tells me um that you know, you chalk that one up to whatever, and you kind of get back to doing doing what you know how to do. You get back to being who you are, and you just kind of move past that. And for whatever reason yesterday, like I just didn't have you know, and look, it's just a lack of experience this year and not playing enough golf outside, but you know, I just never really got back to I never had a good feel for what I was trying to do, and I just mentally really struggled, and I think that's why I never really found it was because I was so busy having a pity party for myself internally that there was just no route, no route back to what I knew how to do because mentally I was disengaged with it, which is just a terrible excuse. But in reality, what happened? And I think for a lot of us golfers, man, it it's tough to go out there, especially on the first hole if you've hit one that's not in your typical shot pattern. It it makes it makes it kind of a tall order to kind of calm calm the C's and get back to selling in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Um maybe this will help somebody listening.

Match Play Meltdowns And Fighting Back

SPEAKER_01 49:30

So I had the um state four ball this week, and um it's two days of stroke play qualifying, and then they take the low eight into match play. And there was probably I don't know, 40, 45 teams, however many there were. That's a great turnout, by the way. Uh that tournament usually um has a long wait list. Like it that's usually one that does pretty well. Now they don't always have it at the best spots, but um the state of Tennessee, pretty pretty lively amateur golf group. It it stuff fills up. Um people like to get into stuff. Um that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

I don't I mean, we don't have that up here. I think they're begging to get fields full and they're not even getting it full.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Oh no, we don't have that issue. Um so I mean you can get like qualifying sites for things that fill up and that have a wait list just for the qualifier site. Um so it was it was an awesome event um to be a part of, and my partner and I uh had it we we thought we played pretty well. We were like the two or three seed. The one seed went and set the new state record for the four-ball. They they shot, I don't know, like 24 under in two days.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

I think I saw that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

They had like a 60 and a 59. Um that was impressive. Uh and they did not win, they got put out in the first round. Um but uh had a had a pretty decent day the first day. Um and I think we were nine or ten under the first day, and we were eight or nine under the second day, and we get into match play, and um I had one of those like second hole had a good like put a good swing, what I thought was a good swing on it. I don't tend to miss a whole lot of uh shots big right, like that's not a typical miss of mine, and I just like hi-ya out of bounds on the second hole. Um so that was nervy, and then um come back like two holes later, and I then snap one left uh out of bounds on this route. No, they're I say all this with the golf course is not a good golf course. There's out of bounds everywhere. It's like you know, it feels like the fairways are 20 yards wide, and then there's out of bounds one step off of them. Um but I'd hit already hit two out of bounds, and I was pretty frustrated, and then felt like at that point it felt like the swing got a little it was certainly wasn't as free. I don't know that I would say guidey, but it certainly wasn't as free and um super frustrated, frustrated to the point that I was like done. I was ready to just walk off the golf course, really, really upset with myself because we were kind of letting the match get away. Um and ended up reining it back in and finishing pretty strong. Um and then we were two down two down through eleven, and we went to extra hole. We had like a three, we had three extra holes and lost to a big sixty-foot eagle putt that went in on us. It was just wild to watch.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Um demoralizing, too.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

And that was on the heels of the same guy making a putt from off the green that was going to run off the other side of the green, with me and my partner both in there eight and twelve feet. Um so yeah, it it was uh very demoralizing, especially the way we fought back. But I I had no feel. I mean, there were like three holes in the middle of that match. I had zero feel for what I was trying to do, and it's funny how a couple of wayward shots that you're not expecting can do that to you, especially under pressure. And um I think you had some uh good thoughts for me afterwards um that maybe helped people listening. Like I was I was super dejected at one point in the round, just like feeling like the work I'd put in wasn't wasn't working, but I I think um I think what I said frustrated me the most was that I knew it wasn't the swing. Like there's probably been points in the past where I've been able to be like, ah, my swing's just not good enough. And then but I knew that wasn't the case because I've seen enough results that it's not a swing issue. Um, and it became more of a mental um almost like past trauma of you hit a ball out of bounds or you hit a shot that you're not used to seeing, and then you just start thinking about well, how like I don't want to make a nine on this hole, or I don't want to do X or Y. Um, and then you just don't feel like you can even hit a good golf shot. You're like, I I may never hit a good golf shot the rest of this round. It goes, it can go so far, and that's what that's the point I got to.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Um and I think a lot of people get there, man. I don't I don't think that's a I don't think you're telling tales. Like I think that's a very I mean I was there several times um yesterday playing golf to where and we talked about this, but just I don't want to play golf anymore. This isn't fun. I I am ready to sell my golf clubs and give up the game. You know, dear God, don't let me make toast in the bathroom tonight because I'm willing to do it. Like it's it's it's a real thing, and it dude, the brain can go there quickly. And I think one of the things that we had talked about was you know, kind of an appropriate level of care um about what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Before you start that, uh I'll I want to frame kind of how we started our conversation because I want people to hear this. Um hopefully my raw moment on the podcast of like it's not all roses, like golf is certainly not all roses. No, it's hard as shit. And as Michael can attest to, you are going to lose exponentially more than you win. Yeah, and um and it is really hard. Um so I was frustrated when I called you. Um and we we ended up getting to a point in the conversation where I s I was like, well, I I it was a different level of frustration for me because I knew it wasn't a swing. And it it wasn't a swing because later in the round we come storming back, and I'm you know, you're pulling off shots that you're expecting to pull off and hitting it where you're looking, and I had to be real and be like, I my mental space was not one that I could pull off what I was trying to do for a while, and um so that's where we were in the conversation. So

Accepting 82 And Dropping The Ego

SPEAKER_01 57:20

kind of take everybody through you as coach, what you were trying to impart on player with that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

It just can't become, you know, and I I text you this, and you know, it it can't become personal, you can't start feeling like the golf course is out to get you, and that you'll never be able to do anything again, like it's all ebbs and flows and and good and bad, but the the big thing that I think I shared with you is that you know, we we joke about it on here, uh being golf degenerates, but all those golf degenerates care way too much about how we perform.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

And that's I think I said uh I think that's you got to that point, and I said, but you said, Do you think you care too much? I said, Yeah, I I go out there thinking I've got to prove that I belong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

And and which is a very real thing for you to say. Like it's a very you being very open and good on you for being able to say that. Um, but what I I think I countered with was if you can't be okay going out there and shooting 82, and look, I'm not saying that you should accept that and you should be happy in the life of the party afterwards shooting 82, but if you can't accept the possibility of shooting 82, you probably can't play golf because it it can happen, it can happen real easy. You can make a an eight or a 10 or a whatever on a hole, and now all of a sudden you're shooting 82. And you know, I think for you, for me, for probably a lot of the people listening to this podcast, we just care way too much. And the problem is with golf, in my opinion, is that you spend too much time with yourself and during a round of golf, and you spend way too much mentally talking to yourself and thinking about things, and you just you've got to learn that everything, it's it's kind of like a storm in a teacup, you know, like a storm in a teacup is a pretty small storm, but inside the teacup, it's everything, and it's the whole thing's a storm, and that's where I think we kind of get internalizing things, things start feeling bigger than they are, the outcomes, everything's messed up now because I did this. Um, and that's where it kind of gets grandiose, and our ego and just kind of our own self-being just gets tied into these things. And in reality, and look, it's it's hard. I mean, I don't know what happened. I only saw a clip of it this morning when I was watching some golf coverage. Uh, but it looked like Scotty damn near had a full-on meltdown at the memorial. Yeah. Um, and and look to them, it does matter. That's their livelihood, it's how they feed their families. Uh, that means a lot to them, obviously. But, you know, the guys that are really, really good and the girls that are really, really good, you know, they they hit one in the water and they just laugh. You know, it it we gotta keep in mind it's a game, and nobody cares. You know, I had a a coach tell me this one time, and I hated him for saying it, but he was so it was so true. But he goes, Nobody cares as much as you do, right? Like sometimes it's hard to hear that, but you also gotta know yourself and know that the worst thing that's ever happened in your life, you got over. And this isn't anywhere close to that. So, guess what? You'll get over this too. You just you need a little time, you need a little space. And like, luckily for me, yesterday, you know, I had a guy with me that was a lot of fun. So we're like cracking jokes and stuff, which kept me in better spirits than I would have been in if I was on my own. Because I will, I'll get in inside my own head and I'll start telling myself what a piece of crap I am, and I'm never gonna play good golf again, and I've got all these deficiencies, and I'm I just can't rise to the occasion. But I also know that's not true because I have witnesses like you've been with me on a golf trip. I play fine. I've I've played fine, I've done a lot of things in golf. But man, when you're in the moment and it's not going your way, it's a tough pill to swallow when you care too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Yeah, I I think um your comment about the if you're not if you can't accept an 82, like if that if if you cannot accept it, you should not be playing. Like if you if you're in an event and you can't accept that outcome, and that really hit me and made me think like dude, if you shot 82, you would be uh I I wouldn't even hear from you. Yeah, I would have already tied a cinder block to my foot and just jumped in the Tennessee River, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

Um which is like you know, it's we it it's just so hard, man. Our ego really wants to step in. You watch a lot of golf, I watch a lot of golf, you see these guys like playing great every week. Like the the reality of it is, and once again, I'm not saying 82 is what we're trying to do, but 82 ain't that bad. There's a lot of people probably listening to this podcast that would kill to shoot an 82.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Yeah. And I I think that really resonated with me that if could there are professionals that shoot 82. I mean, poor Nick Dunlap shoots 90 in the master.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Like by the way, I was not a huge Nick Dunlap fan until that because he handled that like a champ.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Uh the fact that he came back and played the next, absolutely, he gained a fan in me that he showed back up and didn't say I'm, you know, handled his presser after it well.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

Yeah, yeah. You know, like I mean, he really you want a master class and like being in the right mental space to play this game at a high level, there it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Yeah. And I I think that just resonated with me. And I think that's for people listening, that's the importance of having a good coach or someone that you lean on in your corner to give good perspective. That well, then I shouldn't then really realistically, you shouldn't go playing any of it because that is a realistic outcome that you uh could be uh playing a golf course that has out of bounds on every hole.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

And you there's a higher likelihood you shoot 82 than 65. Yeah, 65's the desire.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

It's the desire exactly. So when you put it that way, of if that's something that is just absolutely in no way can you handle, then you shouldn't play that really resonated with me of wow, okay, yeah. That's uh and for the record, you didn't shoot 82. Did not shoot no no. Um I didn't at all. There was just three holes where it felt like I was shooting 82, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:23

Um, I mean, honestly, it took it was so funny. If you if you would have asked me what I shot yesterday walking off of 18, I would have said like 86. Like I I I mean, I would just like I was in that kind of headspace. I would have legitimately looked at you and be like, I'd have shot 86. No, and I I had to add it up to talk myself off the edge of a shot 78.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Excuse me. I I loved this. Um John Tattersaw had this phrase, he would say, um he would have people be like, Well, if you can just get me to X, I'll be happy. And he's like, No, you won't. No, you won't. You'll get there and you'll be unhappy that you're not at the next spot. He's like, My job is to get you to fail at a higher level because you're just going to continue to fail.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

And I thought that was a unique way of looking at so earlier in the week, you gave me confirmation that we're doing the right things, and I haven't said this to you privately off the air, so I'm saying this to you for the first time on the podcast, but you gave me the confirmation that I needed to hear to know that we were doing the right things for you earlier in the week

Accountability And The Hidden Variables

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

because you had a qualifier on Monday. And yeah, I knew he talked about the call.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Yeah. I I've been trying not to think about that golf course and the condition it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Yeah. So you went and played in a qualifier, and we got on the phone afterwards, and like you were really like, I was waiting, I was waiting for it to drop because. Like you told me pretty quickly, you're like, hey, I missed it by a couple, whatever. And I was waiting to hear, like, ah, my driver's cutting too much, or this or that, or you know, you you normally give me a lot of feedback after these rounds ago, which is good. Like, I'm not complaining. But you you said to me, You're like, you know, I hit it like well. Like, I it wasn't because I didn't hit it well enough. I just didn't get anything out of it. And like, this is the sickness that people don't realize they're chasing. But when you actually start getting your golf swing to where it's functional and repeatable and understood, you're gonna have so many rounds of golf like that, it's gonna drive you bananas. You're gonna go out there and hit it better than you score. And like, that's where rubber meets the road. And that's that's the point where people really start playing some amazing golf because they know what they're doing with the golf swing. They can hit it T to green just fine. And the lesson that they eventually learn is like, I have got to figure out a way to get the ball in the hole quicker with the putter and the wedge of my hands. Yeah. But like for you to say that to me showed me a ton of growth out of you, which my hat's off because you've worked at this very hard, but I'm excited to know that we're getting there finally.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

Yeah, that I I think uh again, uh anyone listening, get yourself a good coach that you can rely on because it's been months and months and months of Michael feeding this into our our practice, feeding it into our lessons, feeding it into our conversation of what we need to be able to accept. And it was it it was not a golf swing issue. It was not, I mean, I we even talked about after the round. I said I scraped it. There was the same golf course, same qualifier for the state am a year ago that I scraped it around, did nothing well and made it. And um this year strike it much better. Now the greens were absolutely horrendous, and did not get a single putt to drop when I needed it, but I was able to leave there and say I really was committed on every shot. I there was no penalty strokes, there was not like no bad swings, no goofiness, like I I don't like I just didn't get anything going. And it was just one of those route, like I think I told you I posed on several shots that ended up short. Like, and just you know oh that was like how is that short? Like I just hit it well, like how just happens and didn't get anything out of it and never got any momentum.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

And I mean, that's why you know people don't understand, but how far the ball goes day to day is very variable, yeah. And that's why you see every one of those guys out there on the and and girls on the PGA and L PGA tour, they all have got a quad or a track man behind them, and they're figuring out like how far is this ball actually going today. And it it does, it changes day to day, and that's where so many people I think get in trouble. Uh, and they they don't realize that it can go shorter and it can go farther. And like yesterday I noticed that a lot. Um, that the ball was just going farther, and it's 85 degrees and beautiful outside. And you know, I I just once again need more experience outside playing golf to kind of get into, you know, hey, like what are the checks that we gotta have in place to come up with a good number and execute? So uh yeah, I mean, I and we talked about that a lot too. You said it was kind of wet and dewy and overcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

Yeah, yeah. You quickly went there with, well, was the I said, yeah, it was kind of overcast, muggy, uh a little misty, and you go, Oh, so the ball is wet. And I was like, Yeah, the ball is wet, and you go, ah, spin's coming down, like, yeah, it probably wasn't gonna carry as far. Yeah. And I didn't I didn't have that enter my mind once all day. I would like to think that I'm a fairly uh golf savvy person, and it was like, oh, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Yeah, it's like when we were at the honors and we were looking at that that one particular chip shot that I pulled off pretty well, and like I was grabbing the towel to dry the face off, and we were talking about how anytime there's moisture involved, we start losing friction. It's the same thing with a full swing and and all that. So yeah, I mean, I I just think there's a lot that goes into it, but you know, the thing that you know I'm proud of both of us is we didn't quit, neither one of us took a bath with the toaster, so that's that's a sign of positivity. But more importantly, it's like you said, it's it's look, you know, as a coach, I know the phone call is coming. You know, like I I hope I have those relationships with people, uh, and I expect the phone calls to come. And I know a lot of coaches just don't answer the phone, like unless it's to take credit for what that person did. But I think you gotta you gotta go through this and you gotta talk about where we came up short and what we're gonna learn from it so that it doesn't happen again. Uh, and that's the thing that you know, I appreciate working with Chuck. You know, it's it's nice that we can have very honest, direct conversations, but we're we're doing it because not because we're just sitting around trying to complain, but rather we're trying to learn what did we not do and what are we going to do better next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

Um Mike, I think the I think the thing that I was most proud that I said to you yesterday, you know, by the way, we had Pete Cowan on the podcast, Shameless Plug. If you haven't listened to that episode, listen to that episode. Apparently, it was a lot better than I thought it was when I did it. A lot of people have reached out, uh, been very complimentary about that podcast. But Pete talks about the three R's. You got to be responsible to yourself. Uh, you got to be, I'm sorry, you got to respect yourself, you got to respect the people that helped you get there, and then you have to take accountability. And we talked about that last part that take accountability. And, you know, not that you made the golf swing. The golf swing didn't make you. Um so like you're not blaming the golf swing, you're not blaming a random gust, you're not blaming, you know, a tucked pen. You're just kind of putting it on you. And I I think I think the more you can get comfortable with taking that accountability for that shot not having the outcome you wanted, the better you're gonna be prepared down the road to have success. But when you can't take that accountability and you blame everything, that's when you become the victim. That's when the thoughts get super internalized and negative, and that's when I think golfers really struggle.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

Yeah. And I I think that's been the the best part about our player-coach relationship is we've gotten it to a point where I haven't once I don't think I've called you any like now that the tournament season's really on. Uh I I don't think I've said once like it's the golf swing. Now we may have said, hey, what do you think? Like just making sure we're in the right spot with the swing, but it has not been a oh the golf swing isn't good enough. It it's been I'm I've not been at times in the right mental space to pull off what I'm trying to do. And uh it's a big part of the game, man. I think I I I hope people are listening to this because we we will eventually get back into some technical golf swing stuff on this podcast. I know people here for that too, but I hope that people listen and hear me when I say that how important it is to be able to be in the right frame of mind, or you will your golf swing won't matter because you won't be able to pull off what you've been doing. And um, you know, I can be I can raise my hand and say I'm putting a lot of work and if it will not show up if you cannot get yourself into that mental when you're striping it on the driving range, you're calm and have some confidence.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:01

You know, if if you're if you're not calm and you're not confident, you know, you've got all these different things going through your brain that weren't going through your brain when you had that feel when you were calm and confident. Yeah, so it's to your point, like you've really got to be able to almost fake it till you make it and and try to get in some decent headspace to play some golf.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

And you said something else that was um eye-opening that um it you said, well, you you played lights out the last six holes in the match plus the three at the end. I said, Yeah. And you were like, Well, it it's not a it's not a you can't perform under pressure. Like if you couldn't perform under pressure, you it would have gotten worse as the match got tighter. Um and it was you asked, you know, you were just kind of having me walk back through and okay, well, what was the difference? And it was this like, oh well, I knew we were out of time. Like you either had to pull it off or you you weren't, and there wasn't this space to have any doubt. And so I think you were like, Well, there you go, there's your answer. And so I think you've gotta be able to get like you're saying, you gotta be good with shooting 82. You gotta be able to stand over the shot and be like, this could go out of bounds, it could absolutely go out. I could do everything right and it could still go out of bounds. And I wasn't there enough early in that match. Um so I hope people hear that and and hear what you're saying about yeah, you're calm on the range and you can hit these shots, and you gotta because there is no there's no uh penalty for a bad swing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:55

So you're of course you're calm, but I I hope that people listen to that and and try to implement that into um their whether it's if you're one of those people that has to be pushed to the edge before

Flow Days, Perspective, And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

you perform, then push yourself to the edge from the jump.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:13

Yeah, from the jump.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:14

Like, don't, you know, I've got a player right now I'm working with has really turned it around, you know, probably went from losing his spot on the on his college team to you know probably gonna play two one this year, um, somewhere in there, if I had to guess. But we just had a really frank conversation, and and he would get four or five over par the beginning of every freaking round, and then you know, shoot one, two, three, four underneath under par to finish out the round and and shoot 73-74. And it took us a long time, and and some of it's like building a relationship and getting people comfortable enough to have a conversation with you. But I'm like, what happens? And you know, I think for him, it was one of those situations to where it's like, I can't, like, I'm not the kind of person who shoots this score, like I gotta turn the it's time to go. And like he would really step on the gas and then get it going, but he would get a little more fiery and he would get a little more assertive, and that's kind of his personality. Like, he's he he probably, I think a lot of people, if they met him, would think he's a little abrasive. Like he's just kind of one, he would be great in New York City, like they would love him up there, he'd be one of their own, right? He's just kind of that kid. Um, but you know, I've I've I told him, and we like we played a lot of rounds of golf together to where like we would get to the first two go, hey, by the way, you're four of a par. Like, what? But yeah, I'm two under and you're four over, so let's figure this out. And he would get so angry about it, but that anger once again is like where where he performs, and like he would just get after it, he'd birdie the first two or three holes, come out of the gate, and like just go, and it's like, okay, you know, the the the brain is a weird thing, man. And and sometimes what's true doesn't matter to the brain, in a lot of cases it isn't. So, like, whatever you're telling yourself, whatever you choose to believe, it can really be advantageous for you. But you know, there's a lot of people that need calm, there's a lot of people that need a little a little conflict. There, I mean, you just you gotta understand where you're at, but you've also got to to steal from Pete again, you've got to take accountability and like, hey, this is me doing this thing that allegedly I like doing. So pull your head out of your ass and like show some appreciation from where you're at. You're not you know at the coal mine digging coal, you're on the freaking golf course, like a lot of things are going right just for you to even be there, and then go, okay, like I've got that appreciation for being here. This is where I want to be, this is what I want to be doing. Now, how do I turn this around? Like, and most of the time it's try a lot less, try not to care so much. Like, once again, as my coach told me, nobody cares nearly as much as you do, so just get on with it. And I think that's good advice. Like, you know, I'm sure there's some sports types that'll tear into this and tell me I'm a wack-a-doo, but you know, I I've had a lot of success with some of this stuff and talking to people and having these conversations that go beyond the golf swing. Because I think so much of golf, once you get the golf swing in a decent place, it it's like they say golf's 90% mental health. I think if your golf swing's in a good place, I think it's like 98% of its mental.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Well, I hope wrapping this up. I hope that people will if you're serious about getting better, pay a lot of attention, not just to the technical side, but to this. And it's it shows up more and more. Um, I mean, Michael can speak to it better than I can. He had his name on his bag for several years. Uh but as I've continued to come up through the ranks of amateur golf and bigger and better competition, it does just become that that mental side of it and being able to pull off what you're trying to pull off.

unknown 1:21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

Self-belief, man, it goes a long way. And it's it's contagious too. Like, you know, if if you're Mr. Frowny, I hate myself, I'm never playing golf again on the golf course. Good luck finding guys to fill out a foresome. Nobody wants to deal with that guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

Yeah, nobody.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:33

You know, so it's it's just get on with it, man. And and look, some days are gonna be your day, and you can do no wrong. And you know, I had I had one of those days last year, shot a pretty decent score, but honestly, even though I shot a really a pretty good score for me, um, you know, in the 60s, it it could have been lower. Like, without a doubt, it should have been lower. I think I missed a couple, like I think I missed like two, three putts maybe inside of like seven feet. Um, but I was so I look back on that round with such fondness because I remember like on the fifth or sixth hole, I kind of walking off you know, off a green kind of by myself, and I was like, enjoy this. Like, today's your day, like you got it going, it feels great. Like you're in in flow, if you want to call it that, what whatever you want to call it. But I I just I remember telling myself to like really enjoy it because you don't get a lot of those, like you really don't get a whole lot of those days where it's just it's going your way. And those are the days you don't want to leave the golf course. Ever. Like you're like, oh man, if I can just keep playing, like let's get an E9 going. Like, yeah. So I mean, learn to enjoy those more, but also don't let those set the expectations because it's just not going to be that way very often. It's it's like allegedly you're only supposed to shoot your handicap, you know, once every 12 rounds. Well, you're only gonna have one of these days where you get it going and are in flow and everything's kind of going. That's probably like once out of every 25, 30 rounds. So it's learn to enjoy those, they're fleeting, and then learn to accept the fact that you're gonna have more bad days than good. That's just the way golf it's hard. And if it wasn't hard, none of us would want to do it. It's that's that's what it is. My wife asks me all the time, like, I'm still old school. I love playing like Spider Solitaire with four decks, and you don't win a lot of those hands, but it's it's the challenge. If it wasn't challenging, I wouldn't keep coming back to it. So I you know, I don't like candy crush because I don't like things that are easy. So, you know, it's I like a challenge. I think most people that enjoy golf or golf degens like us, you know, I I think the challenge is what we really like about it. So learn to embrace that challenge and learn that it's not it's not defining on a personal level. I mean, how you behave on the golf course is is defining, but the game itself and the score you shoot is not a defining thing. So it's a game at the end of the day, you're gonna go out to dinner that night, and absolutely nobody at that dinner table cares whatever you tell them you shot. So just get over it. Yeah. So, anywho, weird, weird podcast today. Um kind of fun. I I enjoyed it, but I think there's a lot of good stuff there. Um, you know, maybe hopefully people will fast forward through some of the first half of that and get to the good stuff on the back half of that. But yeah, uh, I think it's good. I enjoyed doing this. Uh, we haven't, you know, it's golf season, everybody's busy. But in all honesty, like if you're one of those people hearing me right now and you think, well, plenty of people reach out. No, reach out, let us know what you're interested in, let us know what you want to hear. Uh, it's not hard. Everybody has an Instagram this day and age. So if you're if you want to reach out to Chuck, he's the nice one. Uh, you can find him at Hudlove423. If you want to take your chances with me, I promise I'll be nice. Uh, you can find me at the force plate guy or measured golf on Instagram. And if you didn't know this and you're listening to this podcast, you can find the video version of this podcast on our YouTube channel, as well as a lot of other content that we create that talks more in depth about the golf swing and the technical aspect of the golf swing. So pretty good stuff there if that's something that you're looking for. And if you are truly interested in taking a deeper dive or can't remember any of the links that you have already heard, uh just go to our website at measuredgolf.com. You can check that out. All the all the links are there and you can find us through that as well. So thanks again to Chuck for joining me as always. He's a good sport and was able to move around his schedule a little bit for me today because I had some issues come up. So appreciate Chuck being nice and patient, and appreciate everybody downloading and listening. And please be sure to subscribe to this podcast because that helps us out a bunch. So until next time, keep grinding.