Shinnecock Needs Fangs

Seven under after 36 holes at Shinnecock Hills doesn’t just raise eyebrows, it raises the bigger question: what do we actually want the U.S. Open to be? We’re watching the best players in the world pick apart a course that’s supposed to bite, and we dig into the setup choices that change everything, especially when greens don’t feel firm and fast enough to demand real imagination around the targets. We want teeth. Michael wants fangs.

We also start with the future of the game, because it’s arriving faster than most people realize. Miles Russell making the cut is a jaw-dropper, and he’s not alone. Junior golf and college golf development have leveled up, and NIL plus world-class facilities are turning top programs into legitimate tour prep. We talk through why staying in school can be the smartest path for many players, and what that says about how competitive professional golf is becoming.

Then we bring it back to your game with practical takeaways: the real distance gap between amateurs and tour players, why launch conditions matter as much as raw speed, and how wind demands different shot shapes and trajectories. We also unpack a common TrackMan driver fitting mistake, copying PGA Tour rollout-based numbers when you play on soft fairways where carry is king. Finally, we hit the hot-button topics: distance, rollback, spin, and the money incentives that quietly steer the sport.

Subscribe to the Measured Golf Podcast, share this with a golf buddy who loves a good setup debate, and leave a review so more players find us. Where do you land: should the U.S. Open punish mistakes more aggressively, or is this just the modern game?

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Transcript

Shinnecock Scoring Shock

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listeners, sit down and join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And it is a week unlike many others. It is the week of the U.S. Open at Shinnecock Hills. And it's been a weird one. Um, I think Chuck has some thoughts. I have some thoughts, but I didn't expect to see somebody after 36 holes concluding at seven under. And I'm sure we'll come onto this a bit later, but it almost seems like maybe trying to stay away from backlash in regards to quote unquote losing the golf course in the past, maybe they've taken it a step too far and have given these guys too much rope to work with. So I think we're going to get into that a little bit for sure, which I'm sure Chuck always does a great job of bringing it around to some useful application stuff for the listener.

Juniors Making The U.S. Open Cut

SPEAKER_01 1:02

But I kind of wanted to start with Miles Russell and him making the cut. And I just I'm really blown away. I mean, he's had an impeccable junior career. I know Charlie Woods gets a lot of the headlines when it comes to junior golf. But this Miles Russell kid, I mean, he's the real deal, man. It's it's one thing there's been there have been young people who have done very well in the AJGA and not had much success post-AJGA. But this Miles Russell kid is making the cut at the U.S. Open, and you just got to take your hats off to the kid because I was able to watch a few of the holes he played today. I had kind of a busy day coaching, but the the times I saw him, the kid is not scared of the big stage and knows how to win, knows how to close. And I think it's gonna be really interesting to see this crop that we have coming up of young people because I think the professional game is only getting better.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Is he the number one ranked um he's the one junior?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah. Gonna be at Florida State with Charlie. Um yeah, I mean, by the way, if you're if you're placing any futures bets, uh Florida State to win a national title in golf might be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah. I was uh while you were talking, I realized that I hadn't really looked closely at the cut line four, I think. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Um I was just checking to see kind of who all um This is the weekly friendly reminder as well that we're still looking for a producer. So please send your resumes in.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

So not only um So not only Miles Russell, um Jackson Coivan making it.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Did he make it on the number?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Uh he's gonna be one inside the number at plus three along with Miles Russell.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Wow. Uh there was another one that I thought was interesting too, because he's highly regarded as the next coming as well. So uh yeah, I mean I think the juniors man can play.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

And what I like about him is that he doesn't do it with some insane ball speed. Um Coyben doesn't not that he's short by any means, but but he's not like the mega speed guy. Um I like that he's just very steady and gets super hot on the greens. I think um I wish he had been uh he was coming off the he was just coming off the Walker Cup when uh UTC had their invitational at the honors back in September, and we had the who's who of the golf world. Uh the kid from Oklahoma. Did the kid from Oklahoma make the cut? Yes, he did. So this um this uh writer Cowan, he was there. Um Oklahoma, Virginia with um uh is it Ben James? Um Vanderbilt was there, Auburn was there, uh Florida was there, Duke was there, so you had the Who's Hoove Golf, Tennessee was there, so I got to see Jackson Harrington who just came off the uh the Am run. Um I was looking forward to seeing Coyvon. He was not there. Um, he was he was playing in the uh Corn Ferry event, that's what it was. And uh I was looking forward to seeing him. Got to see um Lasasso from Old Miss, who's now on the live, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

I think that's right.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Um it was so impressive to watch I mean, just watching these guys on the range. So we got to do a kind of a quote pro-am, and some of the members got paired up with some of these teams, and it was just so impressive to watch these guys warm up, and everyone had a quad or something, everybody's setting it down, like even the practice round, these kids are setting this thing down. Um but to see that I think there were like five walker cuppers in the field. Um it was just super impressive, and you can see the future of golf. I mean, these guys are pure athletes, like the they're not just it's not just golfers coming to golf anymore.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

I mean, you're seeing people yeah, you're seeing athletes that could have played other sports who are kind of doing the math, they're kind of looking at the wear and tear, and they're they're picking golf. So you're definitely seeing more athletes kind of come to the game.

College Golf Resources Beat Turning Pro

SPEAKER_01 6:05

But I also I think that college golf at the top tier has really changed a lot too. We've all seen the videos of Alabama's practice facility, Auburn has an amazing practice facility. So these guys are are going to school, quote unquote, and and they're golfers, so they are going to class. It's not the football team or the basketball team per se. But you're seeing that these guys are having resources put around them. They are kind of majoring and becoming a professional player. And I thought it was really interesting. Uh, Coiven was interviewed prior to the start of the uh open, and they were kind of asking him, you know, what why didn't you come out last year? Technically, you had enough points of the PGA tour you that he could have turned pro last year. And he said, I just wasn't ready. And I think historically we've seen guys that thought they might get some sponsors' exemptions and get a few starts. They're chomping at the bit, ready to go on tour, because they're they're done with college. But I really I think that the college programs that are top tier are just doing a much better job of creating an atmosphere and a culture where guys can stick around, work on their games, develop. They have access to everything you could possibly need to get better. And they're kind of realizing like it's it's better to stay here an extra year and get really, really sharp than it is to go out there and grind for a year and not have any of these facilities available to me.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah, and and you've got everybody around you wants you to perform well and wants you to win and play your best golf, and you're not having to pay for any of that. Because once as you know, being the tour coach, once you get out there, nobody's nobody's got the physio person lined up for you. Like, you're not, hey, go to the training room, like it's your physio that you're paying for. And oh, I've got to make my own travel and I've gotta yeah, it's so different. I I don't know why you wouldn't stay. I mean, I I get that the NIL for golf is not what you're seeing for football and these guys making but it's still there, these kids are still getting.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I mean, yeah, there's they're getting there's more than beer money and pizza money, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, yeah, the top, the top-end guys, the top-end schools, and um, but yeah, I I'm still so confused why you wouldn't want to stay where, like you're saying, the facilities have gotten to be so good. And if you're I I can't speak to anybody else, I I'll speak about UTC. Like these guys get to go practice, they've got a great facility, and then during the week they're getting to go play at the honors once a week, Chad Newgang Country Club, Lookout Mountain, Council Fire, Black Creek. You they've got a great stable of good courses to go hone in their craft and their game. I I just don't know why um more guys aren't going that route. Maybe they will instead of going out there like you're saying and kind of struggling through that first year as they get kind of their nose bloodied a little bit with all the welcome to the real world or or welcome to professional golf. Yeah, it's not like the other, it's not like the NFL or the NBA, where like once you get there, the teams have all that for you. Like you are your team golf-wise.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah. And I think a lot of I think a lot of players historically have been ill-prepared for that. And they go, hey, let me go out here, let me try to make a little bit of money before I spend money. And you've you've got to have that team in place. You've got to take care of yourself. The travel is a real deal, especially when you're up and coming and you're having to play every week. So the the wear and tear is there, the amount of athleticism that these guys are now applying to golf, uh, it's it's not like it used to be. I mean, you are taxing your body, you're trying to perform at your best. And to your point, it whether it's a physio, whether it's a nutritionist, whether it's a chef, whether it's a I mean, you got to figure all this stuff out. You're not going to perform at your best eating Wendy's after your round every night. So shout out to Wendy's. I love Wendy's, but it's it's not generally what you want to be feeding yourself night after night if you're trying to perform at peak level. So yeah, I think I think it's a good place to be. I think as the NIL continues to swell, which I don't see that stopping anytime soon. You know, golf is very interesting in the regard of it's more popular now than it's ever been at any other point. Uh golf has a weird way of being one of the few sports that kind of intermingles a bit more with business and finance. So there's a lot of guys that are alumni who maybe don't relate well with the football team and don't relate well with the basketball team because they didn't play those sports, but maybe now they're a golfer and now they're into it and now they're willing to donate a million bucks to the program. So I think there's going to be more money available to these top-tier teams and talents. And the facilities are great, like you said. So yeah, it's kind of like a little tour factory almost, uh, especially if you're talking about those top, top-tier programs. So, yeah, I think more players might start looking at this as hey, you know, let's stay here, let's finish up this degree. You know, that gives me my fallback. That's kind of my insurance in case this doesn't work out. And I'm not really sacrificing anything by not going out there and getting my teeth kicked in for that first year or two while I figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah. But impressive that a lot of these uh college kids have made the cut on a golf course. I'm

Why Shinnecock Feels Too Soft

SPEAKER_02 12:18

kind of bummed. I'm super bummed. You this is my favorite tournament of the year. And having played this golf course uh back in uh the fall, and we walk out on the range. Um, there was an assistant uh he's still at Shinnecock that had been at the honors for a bit, so he came out, kind of hung out with us, chatted with us while we're warming up, and he goes, You guys are catching it at a great time. You're gonna play it. We we would be ready for the U.S. Open tomorrow. We he's like, we'd grow the rough about a half inch and we'd be we'd be ready. And um he said green speeds are are good, greens are firm. This is kind of how it's gonna play, and and there was some wind that day, like 30 mile an hour, kind of what these guys saw yesterday, except it was uh switched. I I I hope we get some wind. Um, I think we saw a little bit of it today where it's actually back into them on two and three. Like the fact that they were hitting Sandwedge into three, that blows my mind because when I played it, it was like driver five wood, like with how windy it was. Um and when when we were playing it, these guys I'm watching them, they're like zipping balls back. And um when we were playing it, like the caddies were very good about being like, hey, this pin on four in this back right corner, like, yeah, you may have a wedge, but we need to land this a good five yards short because it's gonna take a bounce. Like everything took a bounce, and I'm just really unhappy. And you're seeing a lot of it in the social media kind of golf world of it's not playing hard enough. And I don't I mean, I get that there's some worry of are we gonna lose the golf course because they've been there have been those quotes out there before. Um but the fact that it's play it plays harder for the membership than it has for these guys, the best players in the world. I hope we see something get dialed up over the weekend. Like they've gotten all 150, whatever it is, around the golf course twice. Okay, cuts done. I want to see this place get some teeth to it.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

I don't know what you I don't want teeth tomorrow. I want fangs.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, so okay, you're in the same boat.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I I don't think it's a good look that after 36 holes you have Wyndham Clark sitting at seven under. Yeah. And I'm not here to criticize Wyndham. Um like I don't I don't have anything against Wyndham Clark per se, but he is a very straightforward golfer. He is, you know, tries to bomb every drive, hits it relatively straight, has kind of a shot pattern, and what what which look, I'm not saying I don't like that. I do, but he is not what I would consider a very creative player. And the buildup to this was well, the surrounds to these greens are crazy. Guys are gonna have to be mega creative, you're gonna have to have this really sporty short game. And while Windham is a very good putter when he's putting well, he is not known to be a magician with a wedge in his hands. No, and for him to be the guy that's horse racing everybody just kind of tells you what you need to know. I I just think that, and look, like you said, and like I kind of led with, you know, there's been US opens in the past that have been a little bloodbathy, but at the same time, like this is the US Open. Why is it that Iranamink is harder and the PGA championship is harder so far than the US Open? I just don't get it at all.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

And I I was good with uh, you know, hey, if you guys are gonna feel like you're gonna get some wind, you want to have the fairways a little wider. I'm okay with that because they fine.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

I'm good with like the rough is penal, so I'm okay with a wide fairway. Like you go from you have like six feet of what we would consider like primary cut rough, and then you get into that heather stuff. So I'm I'm totally okay with the wider fairway. I have no problem.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah, I was good with that, but if you if you give that concession, there's no way these greens should not be firm, fast, brutal. Um, I mean, I'm watching the shot right now from today, um uh a downwind shot that spins back, and I'm just thinking that shouldn't be happening.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

I saw a 70-yard wedge shot from the rough today. 70 yards from the rough, downwind, elevated green, and the dude made it stop on a dime. And that that's just not US Open stuff, in my opinion. I don't I don't I don't care if I see that at the John Deere classic, but like at a US Open, I don't want to see that.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

No, and and I think that's I would be less frustrated had I not played the golf course to get a feel for how it should play. And that they're doing this when like the guys I went with are all very good players. We're all very good players, and like the caddies are telling us hey, you you cannot be here, you gotta hit it here, you may have to land this one short. None of these guys are having to do that. And I just hate that we're not seeing the golf course like that because this place as you said earlier, the the TV, just like Augusta, doesn't do it justice, the changes and the slopes. Um I don't think they've they've talked enough about how difficult eleven is. And it was down when the first day. I don't know if it ever really got into on this on today's round. Um but there's nowhere to hit it. There's nowhere on that green to hit it. And the if you hit it left, and everybody's seen Brooks' um uh uh bogey that he fist pumps from 2018, he misses it left, long left. And the fist pump comes from him then hitting his next chip over the green. Like you cannot stop it. You cannot stop that ball from left, it all runs away from you, and then you're in the bunker, and the bunker is a good 10 feet above your head, the lip of it. Um they call the shortest uh par five in golf. Like it I just I just don't think we're getting anything like this golf course should play. I just hope it gets dialed up.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah, I think it's gonna be interesting over the weekend, right? I mean, runs are gonna come. Uh, what's Windham gonna do? You know, I wouldn't be surprised to see Wyndham go out and shoot something around level. I like I said, I I fully expect and will be very disappointed if we do not get crazy conditions tomorrow. I'm sure they are out mowing the greens, I'm sure they're out rolling the greens, I'm sure they're gonna do the same thing again in the morning. Like I would not be surprised for them to get a little reckless tomorrow with it, considering that they've probably been a little bit safe. But I wouldn't be surprised to see Windham shoot something around par tomorrow, and then it's gonna be up to somebody to put some pressure on him because I like I said, I I think he's got his game, he's putting well, he's always dangerous when he's putting well, and somebody's gonna have to kind of go get him and put some pressure on him if we're gonna make this interesting. But if he goes out there and everybody just kind of shoots around par and nobody puts any pressure on him, I I think it could be kind of a boring Father's Day uh when it comes to the U.S. Open.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

I um so he so he got the seven, so he he was one under, so I guess he didn't run away with it, but nobody really nobody came at him.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Nobody made him Sanders shot four under today, Morikawa shot five under today, which is a heck of a round. Uh you know, it's a shame that Colin and you know, it's a shame, it's just a shame that Colin didn't play better yesterday, or he would be right in the hunt with that. But it looks like I think Colin had the lowest round of the day at five under. Uh, but generally speaking, you know, it's a little bit of red. Uh Joaquin Neiman shot a five under today uh to make the cut by by one. Uh so turned it around really well. But yeah, just there's a lot of, or there's a couple of red numbers mixed in with a lot of black numbers. And, you know, I think we want drama, we want engaging, entertaining television. So, you know, did the USGA get this right? Did they get it wrong? You know, they probably actually got it fairly right. And it's just when these guys are on the way Wyndham's been on well was on for the first round, there's nothing you can do to stop them.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

That that's I was about to ask your opinion on

Complaints, Ego, And USGA Gamesmanship

SPEAKER_02 22:19

that. So these are the best players in the world. And they are when they're on and given certain conditions, they are that good. Like you said, it it will not matter at that point. Like if the conditions are right and they're on, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Um tell me if I'm in the wrong here. Most of the year on the PGA tour, you know, they're like 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 under par winning these golf tournaments. Like they're they're blistering in these places.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

I have zero. I lose a lot of respect for guys when they come out at a US Open and they start whining about the difficult nature of the course. And I I understand that they don't want to be embarrassed, as as you have said before. They don't want to be embarrassed. But I am I wrong to think that look, you're gonna get this test once or twice a year. You guys are the best in the world. This this is part of the game. Like, if you don't want this condition and you don't want to have to grind, don't come play in the US Open. That's not the place for you. Uh am I wrong in that like I I get so miss me with the whining and the they've lost the golf course and play better. Like it's it is supposed to be hard.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, I think what you're saying I think a lot of people have probably share that sentiment. Um having spent a fair amount of time out there with quite a few players, I would say that to your point, they're only getting this once or twice a year.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

And when they do get it, it's kind of a shock to the system. And they go out there, and to your point, they're used to shooting 65, 66, Thursday and Friday, and being on the cut line, and then they go out there and play about the same, and they shoot three or four over and miss the cut. Um, and I think, you know, as an athlete, and and look, we know that we should take take accountability. We know that the ball is in our hands, especially as golfers, as an individual game. But at the same time, I think these guys are kind of protecting their egos when they do that, more or less. And I don't know that they're actually complaining as much as they are trying to justify the score they just shot, which is probably the highest scores they're gonna shoot year round.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

So I don't know that I would I don't know that I would call it whining, but I do think there's a little gamesmanship there as well to where the players want it as easy as it can be, especially if you're a guy that likes to go low. So the same way that what's the coach of what's the coach of uh the Knicks, Mike Brown? Am I getting that right? Mike Brown. So like Mike Brown after game two or game three is on a tie, not a tirade, that's not fair to Mike, but is is in a press conference talking about the disparity in the foul calls. Yeah. Is he whining about that or is he trying to put that out there to to kind of, hey, the refs are gonna hear this and hopefully they react to that? Like there's there's a lot of gamesmanship going on because the USGA is listening to the feedback from these players.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

So I I think it's a little bit of gamesmanship, I think it's a little bit protecting their egos, and I think there's some hurt feelings. Like nobody wants to go out there and shoot 76, 77 when you're used to shooting 66 every day. So I think it's just a little bit of chapped ass to go along with some gamesmanship.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

And I get the I certainly get the gamesmanship part of it. Um and I this is where I draw on my my past life of being in the football coaching world. And um you would set a schedule and and you would give yourself Hey, we we need a test, or like we like things we we want to do hard things and we need to do hard things to see where we are. Um, you see it a lot, you see it so much in college basketball early in the year where you had uh you know the greats Roy Williams, Mike Sheshewski, Tom Izzo, and they're like, hey, we're gonna go play in this tournament where everybody's ranked, and we may lose a game or two, but we're getting prepared for March where things get hard. And it's uh I I wonder if like if we had more hard things on the tour, would would this be in such a spotlight of where we need this gamesmanship? I I just wish we could get to a point of yeah, it's just hard. Like that's it, it's a great test, and it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I do think the I I think the setups are a joke on tour. Uh, I've said it before on this podcast. I look, I I get it. There's only so many golf courses that are really going to be able to present a challenge because as I said, when these guys are on, it doesn't matter where they're at. Like pick the hardest, you know, go to old head over in Ireland. And if a guy's on that day, he's still breaking par. Like, come up with the craziest stuff you can come up with. These guys will figure out a way. That's how good they are. And, you know, I agree with you. I just don't think I just don't think they're getting that that tournament early in the season to where it's like, oh, yeah, well, this is setting me like Augusta doesn't play overly brutally difficult. You know, generally the PGA doesn't. Uh, this year was kind of an anomaly with a run of Inc. uh and the way that was set up and the way that played out. They eventually figured that one out. Um, but yeah, you just don't get it. And I think it's just a really big shock to these guys to where you hear them talk about it. I think it's a really long day. That's one thing that kind of gets forgotten. And I think, you know, they've had a long day. They've gotten rough, they've gotten roughed up pretty good. You know, it's kind of being that defensive lineman that's going across or is standing across the line from somebody who's going to play in the league and have a Hall of Fame career. Uh, you've kind of been dealing with that situation all day long. And as soon as you get done, you're worn out, you're exhausted, you just want to go home and take a nap, and somebody sticks a microphone in your face. Yeah. So I think there's just a little bit of that to where you get some some raw feedback from some people. And look, when I'm frustrated, when I'm upset, do I say things that are probably a little bit above and beyond what I should have said because I'm emotional or I'm frustrated? Of course I do. And I think a lot of these comments uh about losing a golf course and things like that, I think that the networks are, you know, keeping that on replay to build drama and to sell a TV program. So I I don't know how much of it I would fault the players with, but I would say that the the TV networks that are trying to get people to tune in and watch are always trying to create drama.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I I just I I sometimes wish these guys had a bit of we're showing up and understanding it's going to be a test. It's going to be hard.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

It's going to get frustrating. And that's what this is. Like, if we're only going to see this once or twice a year, I think that's okay. And to your point about the defensive lineman, you you just don't hear or you'll hear a coach in a press conference that like the team that was overmatched, they'll be like, Yeah, it was really hard out there for us today. Like we those guys across from us are really good. Like we couldn't do anything we wanted to do. And that's just part, that's part of the game. And I wish that that.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

You know, it's a do you know a good golfer that doesn't have a huge ego? Yeah, it's true. Like, seriously, like it's it goes, it's an individual sport. It's not about bonding, it's not about meshing, it's not a it's it's a very ego-driven game. It's in my opinion, one of the most ego-driven games, uh, especially as somebody who teaches the game to a lot of people. You know, there's so many times to where what I need to do to help somebody play better golf is to get their ego out of this and start picking better targets and actually like understanding how far they actually hit the ball. Um, you know, it's I've played Valhalla a ton of times, not proud to admit it because I don't really like that course, but I've played Valhalla a ton of times. And they've had a couple PGAs there, and the tour players have been there. And it's funny, man, because like I I like hearing you talk about like, hey, I hit driver five wood into this hole, and today they were flipping nine irons in there. I mean, dude, I go out to Valhalla, I don't hit it that much shorter than you, 15, 20 yards. It sounds like you've gained a little speed since last time, so maybe 30, uh, if you really pound one. But, you know, I would go out there and with a caddy, and they'd be like, Oh, yeah, this is cute. You're hitting it from here. Because I got a freaking fairway wood or a hybrid in my hands for these par fours because the place is 7,700 yards and soaking wet all the time. And they're like, Yeah, Rory had nine iron in on this one. And I I think the thing that I was hoping that you would talk about a little bit or would come on to is having played this place, like and seeing how difficult it was for your group. Yes, is it playing maybe a little easier today or yesterday than it than it was when you guys were there? Debatable, but maybe I I would believe that based off what the USGA has done and slowing down the green speeds alone. Like that alone is a huge advantage out there.

Playing Tour Venues To Learn Reality

SPEAKER_01 32:55

So I can buy that, but it's also like an opportunity, if you've never done it, uh talking to our audience now, but it's an opportunity. If you get a chance to go play a tour venue and you know you're getting ready to go on that trip, maybe watch the highlights or pay attention to a player when they play that tournament there, and then compare what you hit on these holes and what you hit into these holes to what these guys do, because you really start seeing like those numbers they're talking about when they say Rory just hit a 397-yard drive, they mean 397. And no, the amateur golfer does not hit it 300 like they think, they hit it like 250, 260. So now all of a sudden there's a 130, 140-yard gap between what Rory's doing and what they're doing, and that alone makes the golf course a whole heck of a lot harder. But it also shows you just how freaking good these guys are.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah, yeah. Um one of the guys that goes with us or that went with us that day on the trip. Um he's got legit like Club at speed north of 122, sends it. And um uh so he it's been fun to kind of watch. I was really excited to watch the Shinnecock US Open after having played it to kind of get a feel of where we were, what we were hitting, kind of watching him hit, and it is a huge difference. I if it it is a incredible difference where I would hit from versus where Hunter would hit from, who's got you know 180 ball speed, and it it is a lot different when you get nine iron in your hand versus a five iron. Like there's just it's it's not it's not even comparable.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

And uh it's apples to oranges, man. It's not even the and the thing that I think also gets really underrated. I

Wind Shots, Launch, And Driver Fitting

SPEAKER_01 35:08

do not have crazy clubhead speed. Like uh I've got some stuff going on with my hip that hopefully we're gonna get fixed here soon. But you know, if if I get it up to like 108, like that's not terrible for me. And I kind of probably play right around like 108 to 105. Like that's just kind of where I play golf. You know, I'm 165 pounds, 5'11, you know, like it's it's not bad, but I routinely, routinely hit it by guys all the time that can swing it 115 to 120. I hit it by them all the time. And the difference is that I optimize my launch window, my launch conditions, and they do not. And there's a ton of people out there that have freakish speed. But if you don't hit the middle of the face and you don't shape it correctly to fit the hole, and you don't understand, like, hey, this is downwind, so I'm gonna get this one up in the air and ride this the jet stream versus oh, this is into the wind, I'm gonna lower this thing down and get it to chase more. Like, these guys have speed plus the ability to go 150 smash every single time and optimize all the other situations we just talked about. So, I mean, that's it, it's not just a pure speed formula, like people keep presenting it. It's great when you have it, but you better know how to use it.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I left that trip um thinking we play, we also played Maidstone. I remember leaving that trip thinking I don't have a shot off the T when the wind is into me to optimize, like you're talking about, like wind into you, that flight better come down. Um and we were all kind of talking about it at dinner that night that we just don't play, like we we'll play in wind in Chattanooga, but we just don't play in exposed wind like what we saw up there. And I was thinking, I do not have that shot. I don't have one that I can optimize for the end of the wind. And I watched many times that day. Um I watched it on number three early in the morning, so it was morning, so it wasn't very warm yet. Wind into, I mean, howling into us, and I hit a driver out of my normal window that's kind of launched, went I don't know, two twenty, like went no, was coming backwards at one point. Um and then hit you know five wood or whatever in. And there's so much to be said for can you optimize what you're trying to do, or or can you you hit the shot that the conditions are calling for because it can be it it tests you in a completely different way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

And especially when you're into the wind, if you don't hit that thing in the middle and you get that axis tipped one way or the other, God help you. You know, it it's really challenging in the wind because A, the wind is trying to move you around while you're trying to swing. And then two, if you don't hit that thing right out of the middle, it is going to get moved significantly. And I think one of my one of my prouder prouder moments of my golfing career was we played the on our St. Andrews trip last year, we played uh three of the courses there, and we were playing the new course. And I had this old school and and Scotland caddies are not like caddies that you get at destination courses and resorts. These guys are gruff and rough, and literally you are the thing in between them and getting their next drink. So they don't they don't have a whole lot of pleasantries for you. But I carry uh while we were on that trip, uh, I had my had my McKenzie bag and it doesn't have like my name on it or anything. And you know, my my caddy is is for like I don't know what where like this guy looked like a crustacean scrubbed off the bottom of a boat and is smoking heaters and has got his hat pulled low, and you can just tell he's not not throat. But we get out and we're playing golf, and he's not he's not one for chit chat, so we're not really having a whole lot of conversation, but we get somewhere around like 10 or 11, 12 maybe, and he he goes, I you you play some golf. And I was like, Yeah, I said, you know, I've I've played some golf. And he's goes, I are you a professional? And I was like, uh, I am a professional, but not a player, right? So he's like kind of asking some questions, and I I'm just I don't want to be the typical American that's like, well, let me talk about myself. So I'm kind of probably playing it down a little bit. And I said, How, why do you think I'm a player? Why do you think I'm a pro? He goes, I two reasons. He goes, you know how to chip, and he goes, you work your driver. And the funny thing was, is he was right because I really that day was very good at like he was giving me good information, and I was always very concerned with where the wind was because you're on the sea and it's heavy, it's heavy wind. So if you're not building how the wind is moving into the shot you're gonna hit off the T, you're in trouble. And I was able to keep my guy out of the gorse all day, which made him very appreciative. Um, but it's a big deal, and and I think a lot of people think, well, I'll just get up there and grip it and rip it, and whatever happens, happens. And that certainly is a way to play. But these guys out there are exceptional at being able to optimize no matter where the wind's coming from, and they do an amazing job of that. But that's that's where you see these guys hit these mammoth drives because they get, and not only that, but you're just I don't care where you've played golf. One thing that I will tell you is distinctly different about Shinnok than when you played, and I wasn't with you, but I guarantee you those fairways are 2x harder than they were when you guys played there. Firm and he's super firm, and that's how they are, and that's one of the biggest reason that these guys hit bombs is because of how hard those fairways are. Because the ball gets on the ground and goes.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah, it makes a huge difference. Huge difference when that stuff gets gets firm and and fast, and you start optimizing a t-ball and that thing lands.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Um you get it land at 35 degrees with 2,000 RPMs of spin on it, and it's gone. Gone. Uh and that's where also, real quick, you know, some advice for the people listening. You know, the track track man, and look, I'm a big fan of Trackman. I'm not here to bash Trackman, but Trackman loves to put out the tour averages of what the tour guys are doing. And when you look at their launch and spin, understand that things landing on a runway. And that's why these guys are creating the numbers they create. But so many people see that the average spin rate is 22, 2400, whatever it is. I haven't looked in a while, uh, on their drivers. The thing for most people is that they're like me and they play on soft fairways. I live in Michigan and it's very lush, and the fairways are terribly soft, and you're not getting the 30 yard 30 yards of optimized rollout that track man is basing everything off of. You're getting maybe 10 to 15 if you're very, very lucky. So the thing that we actually want to do that aren't superhuman tour players is we actually want to optimize the carry of our driver because we can't count on a ton of rollout. And the tour guys are optimizing the rollout as well as the carry. So I think that that's something that hasn't probably been talked about a lot, but is something worth considering next time you go in for your fitting and they're giving you a driver that spends a 2,000, you're never going to get that total number on the fairways that are soft and lush.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Yeah. The you you brought up a good point about optimizing and what happens if you don't hit the center of the face and what it does, and and especially into the wind, you you can see this ball just do all kinds of crazy things and really get offline. And it kind of Gets into a

Distance, Rollback, And Money Incentives

SPEAKER_02 44:01

conversation. I think it was um Kevin Kisner on the broadcast today. I saw a super something I'd not thought of. I thought it was very interesting that um the golf ball you know designed not to spin. And they were talking about drivers or rollback, but and and he made the point, he was like, Well, if the golf ball spun more and a guy tried to hit a 350-yard drive, they'd have more pause because if they don't hit it in the center of the face and now the ball starts spinning, the offline it'd be huge, would be huge, and it would it would give someone pause about trying to hit, and I thought, you know, that's a really interesting point, and kind of goes into that. Like, if you're you would see like you can kind of see it into the wind, like that would be what it would be like if you had a ball that spun a lot and you didn't hit it in the face and you didn't optimize it.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

And here's my thing you were talking about the players whining about the US Open being tough. I'm sick and tired of hearing people whine about how far people hit the golf ball. Maybe get stronger, maybe get better, and maybe like actually like do something other than just play golf and drink beer, hit the gym a little bit, and see like take a golf lesson and hit the damn ball farther. Like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, everybody wants us to take the bar and lower it so the average people can compete. Screw that. Like, I love the fact like if you're dude, if if you're an athlete and you got the stones to stand up there and swing it at a 95% and just let it rip, good for you. Like that should be rewarded. I am so tired. Look, Kevin Kisner, look, I I'm gonna get in trouble for this. I don't care. Kevin Kisner doesn't strike me as an athlete. If I saw Kevin Kisner walking down the street with his beer belly and a twin and a 12-ounce in his hand, like I wouldn't care. Like, I wouldn't even recognize him. So listening to people like him complain that the athletic guys that are actually doing the training, that are actually in the gym, they're actually working on their golf game, hit it farther, cry me a river. That's like that's like people in the NBA finals going, it's not fair. Wimby's bigger than us. It's the same conversation.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Yeah. Uh and I wasn't saying. No, I'm not that's not a I just thought it was an interesting topic of like, oh yeah, if the ball did spin more. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

I like I look, I can make both the like I can agree with that statement and also bitch that people are complaining about people hitting it farther than them. That's how like this this is sports. Do better.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah, like you know, like you got to deal with it. Tiger finally got athletes playing golf. Yeah, and this is what happens when athletes play golf, like things go for it. For a game that it used to be, yeah, yeah. Things go for and and you wouldn't go back to um Adolph Rupp's. I mean, it's documented in Glory Road, but you wouldn't go back to Adolph Ruff's 1950s Kentucky team and have them play whoever now. It would be such a different game. It would be the the game is played above the rim, and those guys would have no idea what like the fact that they shoot it from deep and now they jump from outside the baseline and can hammer it home, like they wouldn't know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Like, nothing is man, I'm gonna get in trouble on this podcast tonight. Nothing is more, I'm sorry, nothing is less impressive to me than when people talk about playing college golf in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Yeah, nothing is more unimpressive to me. It was so elite back then, and so few people played golf, they were trying to fill these teams, dude. There wasn't this abundance of people playing golf, and they got to pick the best of the best. There was none of this like AJGA stuff, there was none of this high competitive stuff. It was if you could get into the school and you played golf at a relatively decent level, congratulations, you're on the team. We'll take it. And like people that are bragging about playing got college golf back in the 70s and 80s, 60s, like I get it, good for you. You did it, and you can only do what's in front of you. But at the end of the day, like trying to compare yourself as a college golfer in the 60s, 70s, 80s to a college golfer today, forget about it, it's not even close to the same level. Yeah, I mean, it's it's really that bar has and to your point, it's mostly because of one Eldrick Woods.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Yeah, I'm I'm like you. I I I miss me with the distance conversation and rolling the ball back.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Um I like the idea of of doing something to the ball, to your point, that that at least makes them think about it and is at least penal when they do miss one. I I love that idea, but don't do it under the facade of well, they hit it too far. Well, if you roll the ball back, the short the the gap is still there, the gap's still there, that right. So the only way you fix the gap is to make the ball go more offline, which is a spin thing. It's also the way the ball is constructed, and the manufacturers don't want to hear that because they don't want to have to retool all their plans. Yeah, yeah. Like that's who's driving this shit, man. Like, and you know who doesn't want bifurcation? The freaking OEMs don't want bifurcation because now all of a sudden they got to make different stuff, and they they know that the minute that there's bifurcation, they're gonna stop selling equipment the way they do.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

The answer is and always will be money to any of your and and that would be it for them. Like the manufacturers don't want that, it costs them more money, they lose money, right? The fact that they got a retool, I mean, they've they've dialed in all their processes and procedures, and now they got a retool. Oh, that would yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

I mean, those are the stakeholders, like those are the people making decisions, yeah. Like the USG, like, how do you think like where's the USGA get its money from? You don't think they get any money from selling commercials during this golf tournament? Oh, yeah, but who buys the commercials? Well, every second commercial is a title is commercial, so I'm assuming they make a little bit of money from these guys, yeah. And it's sad, like I mean, it's it's like we were talking about the other night, you know, we were on a completely different topic, but the only way the the the government and politics gets better is the removal of all the the money that's there. Uh, but that's that's not just a governmental thing, like that that is every like money is in everything. And sports, it dude, it drives it drives the decisions. It does.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Um I like that we've kind of bounced around everywhere. I I just uh going back to it to wrap that up, I just hope that hope we get to see some to your point, the fangs of the golf course, because it is such a it's my number one place. It's such an awesome design.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

I desperately want to play it because you say that. Because I was with you at Cyprus and I know what we saw at Cyprus. And like for you to put it above that, I just can't to be honest, I can't even fathom it. Yeah, yeah, it it it's up there. I'm still buzzing after Cyprus. Like, I'm still like I think about it daily. Do you really? I do.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Wow. I mean it's I don't know that I think about it daily, but I I'm that was one I wasn't sure if I'd check off the list just because I don't live on that part of the country. Um so I don't I I had it in my mind is like that may not be one I get to. So I I'm so glad I did.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

So glad I got to say I did it and got to go. Chuck likes when I call him and say, get excited, MFR.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Yeah. Yeah. Means we might be going somewhere cool.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Yeah, yeah. I I mean, I I think I think it's definitely look, you can tell on TV you're looking at something special. And and one thing that I will say is the presentation uh on TV of Shinnokok is better than most. Like it looks it looks the part, it looks great, uh, it's very pretty, it's very demanding, it's very challenging. Uh so yeah, I mean I I I can see I can see how that is at the top. It's just I for me, I and I hate to say it, and I hope it's not true, uh, because I'd hate to think that I've already played the best golf course I'm ever gonna play in my life, but man, it it's gonna be tough. Like, I just I love the I'm a sucker for the ocean, you know. So having that golf course and you know, the amount that I've read about that golf course and how it was designed and how it was kind of thought through, and how you have this amazing blending of the dunes with the forest, with the ocean, like you're just you're you're not getting that anywhere else. Like that's it's a very unique, unique thing. So yeah, I'm I'm still buzzing about that. Uh hoping, praying. Uh Cypress Point got me praying uh about hopefully there's a return trip in there at some point down the road. Uh, but on the on the note of Cyprus, please do not DM me about getting out there to play. I I cannot help you. I have no ability to help, nor would I take a flyer on something like that with somebody that I don't know. So if I don't follow you on Instagram, definitely don't ask. And if I do follow you on Instagram, you can ask, but I'm gonna give you a very stern talking too. So just wanted to put that out there. Um speaking of, we haven't even talked about it. I'm very

Caddying Plans And The Honors Return

SPEAKER_01 54:29

excited also about I have a trip next week. Are you doing the Crystal Downs trip?

SPEAKER_02 54:37

No, way better than that. Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Um you're coming back to the honors. Back to the honors, baby. Yeah, coming back. Um, I hope that we will get to do um another in-person pod.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Gotta make that happen. That was so much it's so much better in person than it is this way.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

It is, and I I um I think we might have a guest when we do the one down there.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

That'd be great. I think it might be the I think it might be three of us. If you're I'm assuming this is where it would be nice to have an off-channel to where we could talk about things and I could clue you into what I'm thinking. I have no idea where you're going with this, but guests are great. Well, where's the other place we're going? Don't say it, but where's the other place we're going? Well, I think it'd be great to have him on potentially.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Oh, okay. Yes. Agree with you. I hadn't even thought about that. Um, lots of teasing lots of things right now. I uh but I'm glad you brought us to that because uh that was on my mind when we started this to talk about you coming back.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Um I hope that we by popular demand according to the email, which makes me feel special.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Yes, very much popular demand. Um, we'll do an in-person pod and hopefully get I think we'll have a little bit more time with you here this this go around. Um I think it'd be great if you're listening, you've got questions about the golf swing. I would love for us to get out there, do some content, talk through a couple things that maybe you you post or we talk about on the pod. Um get us back into a swing and technical mindset for a bit. Um I look forward to the in-person so much. I feel like we get a lot done. Um you and I have definitely feel like we've hit a really, really good stride with my golf swing. And um I'll have a qualifier for the state open while you're here, so that could be fun to to debrief after that round. I'm just bummed I can't caddy that round. That would be pretty cool if you could uh yeah if you could be out there. I'd be an expensive caddy that day. Yes, yeah, you would with all the money you would lose with other clients. Yeah. Um there's a price.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

So hopefully, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Uh speaking of caddy, I am caddying on Monday. Are you? Yeah. For USM qualifier for Vivi. Oh, okay. We're running it back. Great. I'm super excited about it. What course is he qualifying at? Bloomfield Hills up in uh kind of Detroit-ish, Michigan. It's it's technically in Bloomfield Hills, which is a suburb of Detroit. Um, really nice place. Uh, really cool golf course, actually, that I haven't been to. So I've been uh doing my homework like a good caddy and uh kind of looking at things a little ahead of time just to get myself familiar with it. But yeah, I'm excited, man. Like there's you know, I caddied for Vibby last summer. And Vibby's great, um, played this year, his sophomore year at Villanova team had a couple wins, super happy for them. Uh, but his scoring average, I think, this season was uh 70 73.9, something like that. Umbi's gonna go into finance and have an amazing career doing that. But you know, I I've I've said this before to you, you know, Vibby has too many options in life because he's a very impressive young man and does all the right things, and he's he's gonna have a career. And you know, I don't think golf is gonna be that career that maybe I thought it would be coming out of high school because he's a very, very good player. And I got to caddy for him last year in a in a uh GAM event here in Michigan. This is the one where he went mega low with you on the back. Yeah, she was like 64. Uh so I know I got a stud and I know my horse can run. And, you know, I think he likes having me on the bag because he doesn't have to think as much. And I am kind of there as a I kind of consider myself when I'm caddying as the process guy. So I just make him do his process all day and kind of try to feed him good information and tell a few jokes along the way, and we'll see what happens. But dude, I there it's theater, man. It's like live theater, and you're you're there in the pit and you get to see it up close and be part of it. And uh I think I think if you're like coaching, like if you're a golf coach or any kind of coach, you gotta get out there with the guys, man. Like you gotta be in it with them. And uh, I love that part of it. Like, there's very few things that I enjoy to do more than caddying for my guys that they can play play. Like they're it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

I had to look it up. Um, when you're there, if you run into him, the head pro was at the honors for a very long time. His name is Garrett. Um, you should uh say hello to him. He's there. When you said Bloomfield Hills, I was like, I know that name. Yeah, his name's Garrett. Good Garrett. He's in a good place. Good for him. It's awesome. Is this the first stage or the second stage? First. Okay. Yeah. I don't know if I like I kind of like that it was a 36-holer and that was it, instead of having you gotta go do one 18 and then you gotta do another 18 somewhere else. As the person carrying the bag, I love that it's 18 a day.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

No, that does make it an easier day. Like the the one I I caddied for him last year, it was a 36-holer. And uh, I didn't complain. I ain't whining. But uh, yeah, I got to the end of that day and I was like, I'm not as young as I once was. Like that, that's a long day of doing a lot of math and really trying to stay focused and carrying that. And luckily, like he's he's playing college golf, so his bag weighs nothing because he has to carry it 36 holes a day. So it won't be a heavy carry, but it's it's just those 36 hole days, man, are no joke. Like, I warn people all the time they go on these golf trips and they play like once or twice a week. They're like, Yeah, we're doing 36 a day for three days in a row. I'm like, what are you doing? You're gonna kill yourself. Not ready. I mean, those are I mean, I get it. It's golf and it's fun, and they're in car most of these guys are in carts doing this stuff. It's still a long day.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Yeah, yeah, you're not ready for it. That's really exciting. I'm glad y'all are getting back on the bag. Yeah, we'll definitely be touching on that when we come back for next week's. So when is when is that? Tuesday, what'd you say? Tuesday, Monday, Monday, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

We'll definitely be hitting that. Um and then I'm coming down to your place on Saturday. You come down Saturday, so it won't be the next podcast, it'll be the one after that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

But we'll tell we'll touch on you and Vib in on next week's podcast. Is what I mean. And then two podcasts from now, yes, we will get the live from the honors. Recap.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Yeah, live from the honors. Um not referencing live from.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

And we'll have the we'll we'll shift back to more swing. I I think uh I'd I'd love to get your thoughts and how you'd go about some speed training. I think that's a topic we can get into and get into the the technical side of um some more short games, some more iron play, driver. Um, and you've already got uh was leaving the golf course and they were already marking down people signing up with you as the email had just gone out. So a lot of people excited you're back.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

Yeah, happy to be back, man. It's just such a it's such a great group of people, you know. Uh I've considered myself to be very fortunate that you reached out to me uh and kind of were the genesis to this whole thing of me, a going to the honors, which was something I'd wanted to do for a long time, getting to play the honors, a huge honor for me, uh, no pun intended. Um, but just the people that you meet there, man, they're really special people. It's a great membership. Um, everybody's super kind, generous. Um, but you know, a lot of people, man, there can play golf. They care about golf. It's I I always tell people it's my kind of place. There's not a lot of golf carts, a lot of caddies, really difficult golf course. Uh, and it's it's a players club. And I mean, I I that's what I prefer. So I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's great. The staff, Henrik, uh, couldn't be, couldn't be more of a gentleman, couldn't be more of a professional. Really appreciate him letting me come and supporting me. That's very kind of him. My only my only disappointment um coming to the honors this time is Skylar won't be there. I'll miss Skylar.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

No Skylar, congrats to Skylar taking uh his first head job up in Montana.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

Staring at the sky, probably right now. It's man, is it cool to stare at the sky in Montana?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

I can imagine. And that's right up his alley with the outdoors, and he then becomes like a quasi-ski instructor in the offseason when he's not that golf professional. So it's perfect for him.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Uh we should go out there this winter and like can you ski? Oh, yeah, I'd love to ski. Oh, okay. Well, I can't. So it'd be really funny to go out there and make him be my ski instructor. Like, that would be turn the tables on him. I think that would be funny. Like, make him put up with me as a as a student. As a student, yeah, that would be good. That would be hilarious. Of course, you're a skier. You're you're you're the you're a renaissance man. Like you, you got all the bases covered. Beautiful head of hair, can ski.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

I ski because I couldn't figure out the snowboarding. I spent two days on my ass, and I said, This is not fun anymore. I'm getting back in the skis.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Yeah, I I did one, I did one trip down the bunny hill on a snowboard and spent most of it on my butt. And I was like, give me the skis. And it wasn't much better, but it was way easier to get up with the skis than the snowboard. So I was like, Yeah, and like this obviously just doesn't work. So I I went in the lodge and drank my hot cocoa and and called it a career.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

I also continued to screw up on the snowboard the getting on the uh the gun the getting on the the the lift is a stressful environment and I do not like it. And I screwed it up a couple times with the snowboard to where they gotta stop and you gotta get I said, I'm not doing this. I've I've embarrassed myself enough, I'm not doing this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

You know, that would be fun, a little off topic, but it would be fun to just sit there at the lift and just watch people screw that up all day long. Like that would be good people watching.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

It it moves. You think you're not moving very fast when you're in it and like you're climbing the mountain. When the thing comes around the corner and it's about to come pick you up, it's moving.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Yeah, and it's a very short delay till it's moving again.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:50

Yes, it it is here. It comes, and like, whoop, it's right there.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Yeah, I would uh yeah, I I'm staying. I should I should love it. It's there's no sun per se, like don't get a lot of sunburn. Like, should be my thing, but for whatever reason, I'm a one-trick pony, I'm a golf guy, and don't ask me to do much else because I I'm not good at it. This is this is kind of what we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

Um, well, I hope that everybody has a great Father's Day. Yep. Enjoy what we hope are some fangs, as Michael has dubbed it out in uh Southampton. It's been fun to watch this golf course. I just I love this place. I think it's oh, if you haven't gone and listened to um uh uh The Golfers Journal, what is it, the Broken Tea Society, that's their podcast. If you have if you want to get a sense of how great Shinnokok is, they just did one with Jimmy Dunn. And if you don't know who Jimmy Dunn is, you should look him up. He is um how would I describe him? He's like the godfather of being a member at really awesome spots, and he has an incredible story himself of how he ended up being this person um and a good player. Uh he's probably in his 70s now. Um he's a member at and and didn't grow up, and that's what's cool about his story. Didn't grow up in the country club scene, uh, didn't join Shinnecock until maybe his 40s. Um but he joined Shinnnecock and then now he's like president of the club at Seminole, and he's at Pine Valley, and he's at Cyprus, and he's uh you know, national. He's everywhere. Like everywhere you go see, he's there, and it's a very well done um podcast with Jimmy Dunn. You should go listen. And he himself is like, it's number one. I played a lot of places, and he has played a lot of places. Even in the podcast, he talks about playing a place that he didn't realize he was a member at.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

So uh I think we should do I don't know how to do it, but I think an interesting idea for a future episode. Like

What Makes A Golf Course Great

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

what makes a good golf course? Is it the scenery? Is it the golf holes? Is it what what what is it that makes a good golf course? And I I've talked to you about this before, and I I think most people's opinions of the golf course is based off how they played that day and what they shot. Like I think that's a big driving factor, but I would like to get past the hey, hey, I played well, so I like this place versus hey, I got my teeth kicked in, I hate this place. I'd like to like figure out, you know, take and like once again, is it is scenery really important to you? Like, do you want to have an ocean right by the golf course to stare at all day? Do you like do you want mountains? Do you want like is it a scenery play? Is it the the actual holes of golf? Is it the configuration of the holes of golf? Is it the amenities that the club has for the golf? Like, what is it that actually makes a good golf course? Like, I think that's I don't think that I've heard anybody really try to define that before. It's very subjective.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:30

It is so subjective. It's funny on the golf course today. Um one of the guys in the group was asking me about Wade Hampton and Cashers. And which you love, which I love. Uh it's it's still in my top five with everywhere I played. And my caddy, Tim Mayla, shout out to Tim. Uh, I took him up there last year. And um, and and somebody said, Well, which one do you like better? And I said, It's hard to compare them because the honors is like a true championship golf course, like a true test, like they could host a US Open.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

Um I don't think that's a stretch, actually. You don't I don't know that there's enough infrastructure there or space.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:21

Yeah, like taking out everything else, like yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

But golf course wise, I don't think you're wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:25

Oh, yeah. With the length, like you can play it from nearly 7,800 yards and the difficulty of it and the the green speeds and the firmness they can get it. Um so I said that you know that weight is not a championship golf course. It's a really, really good golf course, like test-wise. Um, but the setting of it being in the mountains, being it's like Augusta, no blade of grass out of place, everything is green, everything is lush. And you walk into the clubhouse, there's a fire going, and it could be July 15th. Like there's a the temperature is such that you could have a fire going, and um so yeah, I think there's so many things, like I it's the setting, it's how you feel when you're there.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Um it's like art in a lot of ways. Like, I think that's the problem, and why why you can't put your finger on it. Like, we may go to the art museum and I see a piece I really like, and you're like, that's the ugliest thing I've ever seen in my life. I mean, it it's it is it's like living art in a way, yeah, to where it is subjective. Like maybe, maybe that's maybe that's the thing. And that's that's where like I've never seen a list. So this is interesting, right? So if we if we agree it's like art, I've never seen a list of the hundred greatest works of art. Maybe it exists, and I'm just not in that circle. And and but I've never seen them try to like where would the Mona Lisa fall relative to the you know, whatever, right? Like, I'm obviously not well versed in that stuff, but um, I think maybe that's that's maybe where we go wrong with this stuff a little bit is it's very comparative, uh, and we're trying to figure out which course is the best, and we want to put it on a list. I don't, I don't know, man. Like one of my favorite golf courses I've ever played is probably, I mean, it's probably not in the top 100, 250. Uh how many of golf courses are on Scotland? It's in like probably the bottom 20, according to people who would know, but because it was my first experience playing golf in Scotland, it's named St. Michael's. Uh it dude, it was really cool. It's very interesting. It's really like, but I like it because I had an amazing experience there. So it's I don't I hate when people kind of crap on other people and they're like, oh, that place isn't that good, it's only rank this. Like, let people enjoy what they enjoy, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:05

Yeah, you probably it's all gonna be so subjective because you you may get the guys that care more about well, what's the club like? You know, you get a Discovery property, so there's one up in Cashers called Mountaintop. I think people have heard of Mountaintop and the Discovery Properties. You know, they always have the great clubhouse, all the amenities. They've got the driving range with the music going, and all the drivers you can test, and they've every four holes, they've got the comfort stations. And there's a lot of people that like that. When I go, I'm like, that stuff's really cool, but the your golf course is not that great, and so it's not it's just not a place that I would put very high in my ranking. But you might get a guy that he's more about the social, and he's like, Oh, the place looks great, which it does, like very well kept. It's like, oh, it looks great, and oh, it's so much fun with like the music and the ice cream every four holes. Um so I think there's that. I I I'm just more I think I I fall into a maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

We fall into the the fuddy duddies that want to carry our bag and and play golf and count the strokes. And like I think for us it would be very different than like the average person that plays golf, you know. I just yeah, I I don't I don't know so much that it's about the nuts and bolts of the golf course as it is about creating the vibes and the experience. Um I mean I definitely noticed that at uh and I I think I haven't heard a lot about it, to be honest. But like I got to go down to uh Cabot Citrus Farm and it looks really cool, and like you said, the amenities are amazing, but I I don't know that it's a great golf course. I hear that a lot. Like I it's really cool, but it it's just like you get out there and you play it and you're like, oh, it's pretty forgiving. You know, they they're obviously not trying to rough you up. Like, why didn't they do this? Like, there were a couple of times where I'm like, man, you they could have done this with this hole, and it would have been nuts. Yeah, and it's like they almost they they soften the edges to where people are gonna have a good time versus people are gonna go out there and be like, oh my god, this is so hard, I can't do it. Yeah. So, anywho, uh that's a that's a topic for another one, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:35

That's right. Because there's a there's a golf course in Aiken, South Carolina, um, Palmetto.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

Yeah, I've heard nothing but amazing things about that joint.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:43

Yeah, it's it's a it's an old Alistair McKenzie, and it has no bells and whistles. Zero, like you pull into the gravel parking lot and you think you're in the wrong place. Um and I've been fortunate to play there a couple times, and um, like right, like you kind of get outside the rough and it's not that well kept. Um and I wouldn't say it's in like immaculate shape, uh but I think it is a phenomenal golf course. The architecture, the feels you get when you play there, um, it's kind of untouched a little bit by technology, like you're gonna kind of play it the same as it was intended. Uh so like you get that end of the spectrum of like there's no bells and whistles, but I just think it's a great place and it should be ranked higher.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:37

And that's how Kingsley was. I mean, Kingsley's changing, but that's how King they had a tr they had a like a trailer for the clubhouse. Yeah. Like gravel parking lot, like you're talking about, little wooden sign at the end of a dirt road that you would never know is there. Uh and and very well done, like very nice, but just not a lot of frills, other than the fact that in the in the wall behind the 18th green or the 18th T is a bottle of Jameson that you're supposed to pull out and take a swig of. Uh, like that's their big bell and whistle is the bottle of Jameson hidden in the wall. So um yeah, man, it's it's yeah, it's just, I mean, we could talk about that for hours. Like, what makes a good golf course? What do we like? What do we not like? But once again, it's like I'm not well versed on art, but I do when I travel, I try to try to find an art museum and go check it out because I appreciate looking at art, even though I don't know anything. Um, and I know what I like. And I could say the exact same thing about golf courses. I I couldn't necessarily write you a thesis about what I like, but I know what I like when I see it. Um, and that just it kind of goes the same hand in hand for me as art would.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:54

I uh couldn't agree more. It's subjective. But I think some people's opinions are wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:02

It's fair. I I mean, and all like it's so fun. Like, I hate to keep coming back to this, but there's people who go and spend hours in line to see the Mona Lisa. I would not spend hours in line to go see the Mona Lisa, and I think they're crazy for it. Right? So, I mean, at the same time, there's things that I do that they would never spend their time on. But to your point, it's like I know what I like, and and maybe that's what makes us human, is we love to debate what we like and why we think other people are wrong when they don't share the same opinion.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:37

Before we we get off, I feel like I've ranted the last couple of episodes. We almost need a segment. This is like Chuck's rant. I'm all for a segment. Something that gets me something that gets me agitated. I I'm jumping sports.

Prime Time Sports And Big Event Energy

SPEAKER_02 1:19:56

Um FIFA World Cup. I'm not the biggest soccer fan. I've my I've got a family member, Jack Skane, who he's loves listening to our podcast on the way into games. He plays for the San Jose Quakes. I think we've talked about it before on the show. But I so I enjoy watching. Like I'm not the biggest fan, but I enjoy watching. I sure enjoy watching anytime it is the USA versus everybody. Like it's it's amazing. Like the Olympics. Very patriotic, the chalk is. Yes. Um we had a World Cup soccer game today. USA versus Australia that started on a Friday afternoon at 3 p.m. They played in Seattle. It's noon there. Who is making the decision? Why is it not on at 8 o'clock at night in prime time? The golf is over. I and I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna watch the United States in prime time. If Fox had a decision of when to put that game and they put it at three o'clock in the afternoon, whoever that was should be fired.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

And this segment was sponsored by I I'm so agitated by that. If there's one thing I've learned about you and the time we've spent together, is Chuck really likes prime time sports.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

I do I do. It's it is the time, it is why it's called prime time. People are at home.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:37

I don't think prime time's a thing anymore. It should be. I just I in all seriousness, like you used to have to tune into TV to watch your show, and then you'd go to work the next day and everybody would talk about that show because that's when you had to watch it. It wasn't streamed, it wasn't available for replay immediately. Like you wouldn't see that episode until it went into syndication years later again, and now there's like none of that, which I think sucks. I think that's why you're seeing and it it annoys me because I'm used to being able to watch everything when I want to watch it and being able to binge things, but it used to be different, and I think that's why you're seeing Apple like now they're putting it out like one episode a week, they're not just dumping the whole series. Yeah, so I like that we're getting back to that a little bit because if you find somebody that's watching the same thing you are, you know that like on Sunday at eight, they're watching that thing. So you when you see them on Monday, it's like kind of cool because it feels like it used to feel when you would go in and talk about what you'd watched on TV. But yeah, it's I just don't think prime time's a thing anymore. But I agree with you. I think it's I can't stand soccer. I I don't really and not that I shouldn't say I can't stand it. I just I'm I don't have any interest in soccer because I don't have any exposure to it. But I agree with you, like USA versus anything, I'm normally will watch. Like I don't watch a lot of hockey, but like I loved watching the US hockey team. Um, but why to your point, why wouldn't you put that on at eight o'clock and like that? That is a bit absurd.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:15

Because that's the only thing left. You're right. The streaming has made it so there is no prime time, but sports are still live theater.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

Like that's still why so here's my rant. Why do NFL games have to start at nine o'clock at night and it's a three and a half hour thing? I can't sit up that long. Well, yeah, yeah. You don't get me started Monday night football, Sunday night. There, dude, I I would watch more if I could stay awake, but I'm going to bed at like 10, 10, 30 and it's halftime. I'm honest to God, when Sunday night football and Monday night football come on, my goal is to make it to halftime. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:54

Well, don't get me started on the there is a too late of a time. So uh that's another rant that I I'll have saved that one. But I'm I'm just upset that I should be watching soccer right now and I should be questioning a rule that I have no idea about right now. I I should be doing that, but it already happened. We won. Go USA.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:23

USA is like surprising everybody, right? Like they're not supposed to do well.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

They are. My cousin was telling me he was like, it's the worst goalie we've had ever, but we're the most skilled offensively that we've ever been, and we might outscore people, and they're doing that so far. And I was also told that there is now a chance that on July 4th, and I could be getting this wrong, the comments may get flooded. On July 4th, there is a chance that the United States and England play in Atlanta. How cool would that be?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:03

I'm shocked you're not scrambling for tickets.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:07

Yeah, I mean, I'll watch that. Like, I'm no, I I think I think that would be on our 250th anniversary.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:17

That's like so I'm not the biggest indie racing league fan. Like, but if you ever have an opportunity to go to an Indianapolis 500, you do it. Like, whether you're a racing fan or not, like that's one of those like iconic events. And I I think what you're describing, I mean that's one of those. It's like apparently, once again, all hearsay, but it's like the World Cup is like a fever onto itself. Then you have the USA playing on July 4th against England.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:53

Like you you can't you can't script that back on American soil for the first time since 1776.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:01

I mean, I I'm shocked you're not like that would be a cool that's one of those things to where as little as I have an interest in soccer, if if I had an opportunity to go to that, like that would be cool to be in the building for.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:14

Yeah. Yeah, once in once in a generation, never gonna happen again type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:21

Yeah, like I I think there's there's not a ton of those events left in the world, but they're they do exist. Yeah, um, being being at Augusta is really cool, but it it's I wouldn't put it at that level. But like being at an NBA finals, being at a Super Bowl, being at a like these are are these big time like historical events that are gonna be talked about years later, and you can be like, Yeah, I was there, and you can't believe what it was like. Like, I think that stuff's cool. Yeah, I'm a sucker for that. I'm a sucker for the experience, or as the kids say, I love a good vibe. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:57

There's nothing like um you've experienced a little bit in Michigan, but there is nothing like a big SEC football Saturday, and you can you walk out of your hotel room on campus and you feel like oh I've been I've had the SEC Light experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:18

I've been to my fair share of games for the University of Kentucky getting steamrolled by whoever's coming to town, and I said it, it's SEC Light. Yep, I've I've been there for those. I I think that the SEC, and look, I I haven't been to an Alabama Auburn game, I haven't been to uh there I there's a few of those, right? Florida uh has its fair share of rivalries. Um, I haven't been to one of those, but I will say this I've been in the building for Ohio State, Michigan, and if you guys can top that, I'll take my hat off to you because that that's one of those to where it's different. Yeah, and when the cool thing is, is I was there at the big house, and that itself, like whoever they're playing, being in a stadium with 110,000 people at once, that's different. Like you don't get to do that very often, and it's like it doesn't, they're not they don't feel far away because it's a lot of people don't realize like I had a guy in from California the past two days, and I drove him by the stadium, he's like, I thought it would be way bigger, and I was like, because we were sitting at the stoplight at the corner, I was like, look through that tunnel, and he's like, What? And I was like, Yeah, can you see? And he's like, Wait a minute, what's going on? It's dug into the ground, yeah, and it's very steep. And like you get in there and the noise and everything, and the atmosphere, like when you get in there, there's 110,000 people, that's one thing. But when you get in there and there's 110,000 people and half the people hate the other half the people, that's it's wild. And it's it is hate, like yeah, it's out of hand with Ohio State, Michigan. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:03

All right, my rant's over. Fox be better.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

We should be watching the USA right now, but we're not. Instead, you're doing a podcast with me. Not a good, not a good uh con what is that? What do they call that? Uh constellation prize. Yeah. It's getting late. I'm running out of words. It's been a long couple days, so I think you're right. We're gonna wrap it up. But uh yeah, I like what you said about being down at the honors.

Listener Questions And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_01 1:29:31

Uh it'd be really, really great if people uh shared, you know, like you were saying, like maybe do some content outside of the traditional podcast. We could post it on our YouTube where everybody could find it. So if if there's stuff you're interested in, I know Chuck talked about speed training. Maybe we get into that. I think we're gonna have a special guest. I think me and him could have a really, or him and I could have a very good conversation about that. Yeah. Um, so I I think we'll get into some of that stuff. But if you have questions, uh if you if there's things that you want to know more about, it would be a great time to let us know. And maybe we can take that under advisement when we're figuring out what we're gonna do while we're together. Um and yeah, so please let us know if you haven't already reached out to us and you would like to do so. The easiest way to go about that is probably Instagram and send us a DM. You can find Chuck at Hudlove423. You can find me at the Forceplate Guy or at measured golf. Uh, you can also uh, if you're listening to this podcast, you can also find this podcast on YouTube as well as a lot of other great golf content uh dealing with the golf swing in particular that I've created. Uh, you can find that by going to YouTube searching measured golf. And if all of that's a bit too hard to remember, you can just go to our website at measuredgolf.com and everything is linked up there. So you it's kind of your one stop shop. But thanks you, thank you once again for listening. And if you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe to this podcast. And until next time, keep grinding.