What If Your Swing Problems Are Just A Bad Matchup?

A five-hole playoff under evening light will teach you more about golf than a month on the range. We start with a story from U.S. Amateur stage one qualifying where even par puts you on the bubble, the wait stretches for hours, and sudden death forces every decision into sharp focus. From reading lies to choosing the right shot shape, we talk about what it feels like to be inside the ropes as a caddie and why “the highs are really high” when someone you coach steps up and seizes the moment.

Then we shift into golf swing mechanics, but not the internet version. Tour swings look wildly different, and that is the point. We dig into swing matchups, ball flight, and why the “perfect takeaway” debate misses the real problem: your body’s engine. Using force-plate concepts like vertical force, AP force, and lateral force, we explain how players create speed, why torque is not the same as rotation, and how certain patterns naturally produce fades or draws. We also connect it to what you actually care about on the course: owning your launch window so you can predict where the ball starts and curves, even when you are nervous.

We finish with practical coaching ideas you can use right away, including a towel-wringing feel for torque and a clear explanation of how the shoulders should move so you stop getting flat, stuck, or forced into last-second hand flips. If you want smarter practice, better ball striking, and a swing built around what you do well, you will get plenty to chew on here. Subscribe, share this with a golf friend who’s stuck in “search mode,” and leave a review with the swing topic you want us to tackle next.

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Transcript

Welcome And A Big Golf Week

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast, where you, the listeners, sit down and join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And it is a glorious week. The weather is beautiful. We're in golf season. We just wrapped up the 2026 U.S. Open at Shinnecock Hills. We probably won't come onto that very much because it was a bit of a dud. Um, but I think there's probably a little bit of wrapping up to do there. Uh, I personally just came off of one of the greatest experiences that I'm gonna have all year. Being on the bag for Mr. Vibov Alokum, shout out to him, uh, Villanova golfer, extraordinaire, great young man. I've had him for a long time. Uh went to U.S. amateur uh stage one qualifying, which has been redone now. So now instead of a 36-holer, it is two 18-hole events. But we went for a uh we were the third T time off in the morning at 8 24 a.m. And he shot even par in regulation. As we were finishing, the second wave was still waiting to go out. And that's no man's land because now you're on the bubble and you know that there's probably a playoff coming your way. And said playoff started at 7 p.m. And we went five extra holes with Vivi finally on the fifth playoff hole, canning a 30-footer to get into phase two or stage two, I should say, of the U.S. amateur qualifier. But man, I had a great time. And I talked to Chuck, and I think Chuck was one of the first people to get the phone call, uh, letting him know that we had gotten through. And man, it's just that's the stuff you live for. And we kind of talked about, you know, golf, the highs are high, the lows are lows, but man, the highs are really high. And when you go through that and you get to spend time with people you love and respect and admire, and uh get to see them, you know, succeed. There's just there's no better high, there's no better place to be. So really great experience. And uh now we've got the

Caddying A U.S. Amateur Playoff

SPEAKER_00 2:12

open championship coming up to look forward to. So lots of golf. Uh and it's not slowing down anytime soon, hopefully. That was Monday. Monday.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Yeah, so we're this is Thursday when we're recording. Yeah, Monday. Um you called me. You must have called me, you called me once maybe after you finished the round.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Because I was on the golf course in North Carolina, and then uh you texted me while I was sitting at dinner and you said maybe you said like head into a playoff and then called me when it finished. There's I think I said the other day to you, there's it's obviously awesome to be medalist at that stuff, but there's nothing like being the guy that gets through the playoff.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, we talked about that because the the consequences are right in front of you. It's sudden death. You know, it's it's either put up or shut up. When you're the when you're the medalist and you're out there playing in regulation, it's like, oh, well, you know, if you're the medalist, then you're good by quite a few strokes. So it's like, ah, you know, if I make this, I don't make this. It doesn't really change anything. I might not be medalist, but I'm gonna get in. But when you're in the playoff, man, it's it's right there in front of you, and and you gotta go, you gotta do it. And uh there was a gentleman that showed up. We went uh seven for two, so they sent a foursome off, and then we were in the threesome. And one of the guys in our threesome, uh, I believe he's from Toronto, goes like lefty, doesn't know anybody, doesn't say anything to anybody, pounds one down the middle, throws one into four feet, taps it in. See you later. I'm in. Um, and then we kind of hit a cut to three from there. So on the second playoff hole, one of the gentlemen unfortunately plugged one in the face of the bunker on this part of three, had a tough time from there, so he was kind of done. So we basically played uh three, yeah, three more holes, knowing that we were at least the first hole to get you know for the for this um for this place. So we knew we were kind of good, but you know, you want to get in, man. Like you don't want to have to be an alternate. So stakes were high. Uh, we hit one first playoff hole or the third playoff hole, uh, just the two of us. We hit or he Vib hit one in to about three feet with a nice 60-yard wedge. And uh we thought I thought we had it done there because Drew Miller from Michigan State University was who he was playing against, and he had about an 18-footer, which to his credit, he holed. Uh, both guys made par on one, and then we went back to 17 again. And, you know, I I'd like to say that we won it with like a great shot, but we really kind of won it with a lucky shot because this putt that went in from 30 feet for Vib, I mean, it was cruising at about Mach 3 when it got to the hole. He had hit it way too hard. But we got lucky, slammed the back of the hole, and uh dropped in, and and that put Drew to bed, uh, whose first alt. So I'm sure, I'm sure we'll see him uh down the road as well. Because I think first alts typically get into these things because of scheduling conflicts and whatnot. But uh yeah, man, it's just it's different. You know, it's it's I love being a coach. I I love helping people here at our facility in Ann Arbor or helping people down at the honors where I'll be next week. Like that's wonderful and good. But getting into, you know, getting on the front lines with your guys and being there and having uh an impact in the moment and and trying to to give good advice and to try to be a good therapist and trying to uh just do all it's just a completely different skill set that you're getting to use uh from my position. So really enjoyed it. I told you I thought I did a pretty good job caddying. Uh, I think I said a lot of a lot of things at the right time. And there's an art to it, you know, there's uh there's a lot more to caddying than just carrying the bag. So I was pretty proud of my performance as a caddy and even more proud of his performance as a player.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Um as someone who's been beaten by a putt like that in the match play this year already. Uh his was from 65 feet though. Um it doesn't like lucky or not, it doesn't matter. Like it that it dropped. Like that's the fun thing about it is it doesn't matter. Um it's also funny in those playoffs how depending on what's going on around you, it can go from a bit of stroke play to match play and can almost bounce back and forth of your mindset of like okay, I know if I make birdie I'm through. So like you're obviously trying to do that, but once Birdie's maybe off the table, you start to really calculate where am I? And so it's a it's a really unique and fun, um obviously pressure-packed situation, but it it's it's cool how things change in the playoff uh from shot to shot, depending on what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, for sure. I mean, when you're in the the group of seven, you're playing that quite a bit differently than when it's down to the final two. Um, and I would say one of the things that I was most proud of with Vibby, you know, I think I said this to you as well, but you know, that 30-footer was really our first opportunity to go on the offensive. Like we had we had kind of like done our job throughout this playoff and we were in a good spot, and we knew we weren't gonna lose, but we didn't really have an opportunity to end it. Like we, you know, when Drew on 18, the third playoff hole makes us 18-footer. Well, now our two and a half footer you gotta make it it. It's not to win, it's it's to keep this thing moving on. Same with what happened on the first hole after 18. Uh, it was it was more of a to keep up versus to seize the opportunity. But I I specifically remember uh when we had that 30-footer, Druid hit it just over the green uh and really had a brutal lie kind of up against the lip of a bunker, like a downhill lie in the rough, green running away from him. It was a pretty tough shot, and I thought he would do well to have an eight-footer. And to his credit, he got it down there to probably three and a half, four feet. So this was like the first opportunity for Vib to assert dominance and to win this thing and to just end it. And the thing that I told him afterwards that I was so proud of is I think whether we're consciously aware or subconsciously aware, you know, this was his moment, this was his opportunity to seize it, and he did. Uh and he didn't waste it. And you know, sometimes it's really difficult with that 30 foot. And granted, look, I know he hit it too hard. So I I I understand that, but to hit it to the hole in those moments shows that you are trying to be assertive and that you have confidence in your abilities. So, you know, if I had my choices, cozy and went down there to a couple feet and like, oh, I'll get him on the next hole. That ain't doing it for me in that situation. Like, we need to step on the throat and get this thing done. And for him to be able to do that in that moment shows me a lot of good things about Vib. And and like I said, he's a great player. Uh having a very nice college career at Villanova, but I really like seeing the maturity. You know, he's not he's not a little guy anymore. Like he's grown up, he had his opportunity, and he took his opportunity. And I think as a coach, that's really what you're looking for in your players. Are they gonna rise to the moment or are they gonna come up short? And uh he rose to the challenge. So I'm super proud of him and couldn't be more happy and gonna do everything I can in my power to be there for stage two because we're gonna run it back, baby. I was gonna say, I'm was wondering, are you getting back on the bag? Uh yeah, I I sure hope so. It's just the most fun ever. Like there, there's there's there's nothing I enjoy, and I think I even said this to you there's nothing that I could do as a player that could come close to the experience I had as his caddy. Like, I just I love it that much. It means he means a lot to me, but I you know, I I love caddying for my guys. I love being there in the heat of the moment with them. And like I said, it it just it feels like the decisions and the things we're doing are more meaningful because they're in the moment versus being kind of once removed here at my studio working on our golf game, talking about things coming up, things coming down the road. Like this is right here, we're either going to do it or we're not.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah. So uh you had a bigger smile in your photo with him afterwards than uh I think you did at any point at Cyprus, and you were really excited at Cyprus. So that's that's speaks to your um love for him and the excitement that you guys got to share.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, there's just nothing better. There, I mean, they're just I wish I once again, it goes back to our Cyprus conversation. I wish I had a better vocabulary to explain it. But you know, there's just for me, that that's what it's about. I love coaching, uh, I love helping people play better golf, and you just don't get a better opportunity to do that than when you're right there with them in the moment. It's just the best, in my opinion. Um and I think it's good for other coaches too. Like if I know there's some other coaches that listen to this podcast, but it's a great opportunity to get out there and see what's really going on and see how they think about things and how they process information. And it's it's really you learn a lot about your players being out there with them. Am is at Marion, right? Uh yeah, the Am's going to be at Marion. Yeah. Which he's geeked about because he's going to Villanova. So he hasn't had the opportunity to play Marion yet. But you know, that would be that would be really cool and really special. And and I I legitimately think he has a good shot to get through the next stage.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Uh, what a great place to, if that's an am you get to play in, what a awesome spot. Um like I think last year the US Mid-Am was at Troon out in Scottsdale. And I was just like, man, you you do all this work, and that's where you get to go. Um, where it had been at Kenlock and Sleepy and some other places. Um, I think it's at Jupiter Hills this year. But so it's not only is it awesome to qualify, but awesome to qualify or attempt to qualify at such an amazing place.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah, for sure. Like you want you want the venue to live up to the moment, right? Like you like you said, you want to play some cool places. I think that's actually kind of what's cool. I was just looking before we started this, and you know, they're talking about with the the reformatting of the tour, uh, they're talking about trying to get to some more of these like iconic venues that they haven't been at in a while and really doing some cool stuff when it comes to the match play, uh kind of season finale part of the tour. And yeah, I I think I mean I think Augusta's proven that over the years, right? It's when the venue's really iconic, it just adds to the stakes. Yeah, yeah. And whether that's an am or whether that's a med-am or whether whatever, right? I just think when you have it at these iconic venues, it just it makes it, it's almost like it it kind of creates a reward within itself.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yep. I couldn't agree more. Um, do you know who's hosting the 2031 USAM? I believe that's the honors. It is, yep. And coming back. Talk about iconic venues, man. Women's AM this year in about a month coming to the honors.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Um that place is built though. Like there's a lot of golf course, like, and it's it's overused. It's a championship course. It's a championship course. Like the honors really is a championship course. Yeah. Like they like there's you know, kind of like you were talking about the assistant at Shinnecock being like, we could be ready in a month. I feel like the honors could be ready in a month at any given time to host a big time golf tournament.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Like it's that quality, especially with the length that they can take that place to, nearly 7,800 if they wanted to. Um yeah, it it has all the things you need to host

Why Playoffs Feel Like Match Play

SPEAKER_01 15:19

one. Um so switching gears to a little uh golf swing, you got to watch as caddying for Vib, you got to watch many different golf swings in your group, and you got to watch many different golf swings in the playoff. And you see many different golf swings on tour, watching um this weekend um at Chinnocock, and you see you see Wyndham with his 18 different swing aids. You see on the range. I mean you you see some guys with things he certainly had the most, it looked like um you see um you see Scotty with a bit of not just his feet, but a very, and it was well documented by the guys on live from you know steeper swing than most. I wanted to get you talking about since not everyone's swing is the same, but you see so much of people or and you see it all the time on social media these people talking about golf swings, and they're all like, oh, you have to have the clip head outside the hands going back, and then it that way it drops effortlessly, and like yes, I I think that would would be the most efficient way to produce a golf swing.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yeah, but there's people that don't.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

But there's people that don't.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

So I mean Nellie Corter certainly doesn't. Is she more of a outside uh more of kind of an around move, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Around club that gets going behind her hands a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. So why don't you talk about probably the easiest example for for people to uh wrap their head around would be you've got Matt Fitzpatrick.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yep, definitely gets it more around. Who's more around? Um I mean you could put Kutcher kind of at the end of that spectrum, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Kutcher, definitely. So then on the on the other end, you've got Scotty like uh Eric, Matt Wolf, Matt Wolf, a Scotty, um maybe a bit of Victor Hovland with how his kind of gets across the um line a little bit. Yeah. Start with Fitzpatrick. Maybe there's somebody listening that that is their move. Uh what's what is most people's move?

SPEAKER_00 17:59

I mean, take the tour players out of the conversation. I think most people tend to be more around and tend to be steep, and I think the biggest reason for that is just the natural physics of the golf swing. So if you think about this, there's really only three ways to swing a golf club. You can swing it straight back and straight through. Okay, you can swing it shallow to steep, or you can swing it steep to shallow. Those are really your three choices. And if there's another one, I'd love to hear it because I, as far as I know, that's all we can really do. So the problem really is that when we kind of consider what each like what's the effect of each one of those causes. Well, the problem with straight back and straight through is that the golf club sits at roughly a 60-degree lie angle. Um rough math, but it does not sit at 90, it sits way closer to 60 than it does to 90.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Which means the club is this when you set it down, the sole, yeah, and that shaft is coming back and you're holding it. There's the angle you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

The lie angle of the golf club is is way closer to 60 than 90. Now, let's pretend that somebody designs a golf club to where the lie angle is 90 degrees. Well, now straight back to straight through becomes way more of an option. But that's not

Iconic Venues Raise The Stakes

SPEAKER_00 19:18

really going to work very well because of the turf interaction situation that we have, as well as the forward shaffling situation that we like to have for delivering the correct amount of loft. So let's just go ahead and put straight back, straight through to the side and say that that's going to be tough because of the way the golf clubs are designed. So now we got to think about this. If my golf club is sitting, let's say it's a seven iron is sitting at like 62 and a half degrees or whatever it is, because it's sitting at that 60 degree angle, the minute I put that club into motion, it wants to go behind me. That's just the physics of it. It doesn't want to go up and out, it wants to go down and around because of the angle of the club shaft. So that's why I say I think most of your golfers are way more around because they're not countering the physics of the golf club with their body and their internal forces. They're just kind of going along for the ride. So I think most of your golfers left alone wind up with a golf club that tends to work more around them and tends to kind of get stuck behind them. And I think you hear a lot of people talk about that, especially on social media. But the issue is that when I get the club working more around me and I don't counter it, and I kind of get this thing laid off and stuck a bit in transition, the problem is as the club rounds around my body, the face opens. Right? So now all of a sudden, when I get into transition, the face is always rotating, either open or closed. But if the face is opening in the back swing, now in transition, the face is wanting to close. Well, that creates a real problem in terms of how we're going to use our body throughout the rest of the swing to deliver the club. Because if my face is closing in transition, now I have to use my body to kind of back out of there to try to get the face back open because we know a closed club face isn't going to help very many golfers. So now I've got this situation where I can't really use the ground very well because I'm trying to use my body to get the face back open versus somebody that gets the club countered in terms of the physics, and now they get it working back, let's say steep, right? If they get it working back steep, well, now the face is closing, which is why I think you like you see so many coaches on social media talking about the club have being outside the hands and talk about the face being closed and the backswing. Because now when I go to transition, the face opens. Well, now if I'm in transition with an open face, now I can use my body to create torque to actually rotate and deliver the face, quote unquote, square. And now I can use. The ground. So in my world, I think that a steep to shallow motion is going to do a lot of good for a lot of golfers because when I kind of think about the golf swing, you know, step one of being a golfer is hitting the ball. And I think a lot of people forget how hard that is in the beginning. If you're a new golfer, if you've never done this before, hitting the ball is kind of hard. Like I have professional athletes in other sports that can't hit a golf ball that's stationary yet can hit a 95 mile an hour fastball. Hitting the golf ball is not the easiest, but that's like kind of stage one. Stage two is always curing the slice. Because because of the physics of the golf club, people tend not to get too steep and then too shallow when they're learning how to golf. They tend to get too shallow and then too steep. Well, that's the quote unquote over the top move that so many people fight. And because they're fighting over the top, once again, the face is closing, so they have to back out of it. Well, now they get the club path left, they get the face open, and they hit the big slice. They either hit a pole or they hit a slice. One of the two. That's like stage two as a golfer is figuring out how to get rid of the slice because most new golfers are slicers of the golf ball. So I just think it's interesting how it all comes about, but getting back to the question of we see tour players doing it both ways, or maybe all three ways, well, certain body types are better at certain things than others. So it kind of goes back to matching up what the player does well to what we need the golf swing to do for them to get the ball to go where they want it to go, because at the end of the day, it all comes back to ball flight.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

What's the what are the things that make how does Fitzpatrick play with more of his around and steeper delivery?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

It doesn't rotate nearly as much. Like I would say that you know, when you think about golfers, every single golfer has to deal with gravity because we are playing golf on planet Earth, which has gravity. So every single golfer has to use vertical force to counter gravity. Like that goes without saying. Now it gets a little tricky from here because the other two forces I have available to me is I have AP force, which creates rotation, and then I have lateral force, which creates kind of the shallowing effect of the golf club and kind of helps me get low point in front of the golf ball.

Why Great Swings Look Different

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Okay, so certain body types really like to move laterally, and certain body types really like to move in this AP plane or a transverse plane, but create torque. So I would say somebody like a Matt Fitzpatrick probably creates pretty good torque. And the reason I say that is if I get the club around and kind of behind me, if you will, then I'm gonna need some kind of torque to get that golf club back out in front of me. So I would say that Matt is very, very good at creating a lot of torque. And I know, you know, Blackburn is who he's worked with for a long time, is a big fan of AP, right? So it doesn't surprise me that Matt kind of needs to get this thing more around and behind him because he's really good at rotating and creating a ton of torque. We see him like pick that left foot up and move it back. That's that's an effective torque. So he's really good at that, and that's how he makes his speed, right? Like it's Matt's really worked at creating more speed, and AP was kind of the solution to that problem for him. But let's say, you know, we're talking once again about non-tour golfers. Creating torque is always the thing that amateurs struggle with the most, and a lot of it comes down to conceptual understanding of what they want to move, when they want it to move, and what sequence they want it to move during the golf swing. So a lot of golfers don't do well with torque at all, which is why I think people can really mess up their golf game by trying to be like, oh, I I want to swing it like Matt Fitzpatrick. I like how that looks. And then they go chasing that, but if they can't create high levels of AP force, which leads to high levels of torque, they're never going to be able to pull that move off, and that's a bad matchup for them. Yeah, and they may be, and I'm just guessing and making it theoretical and playing devil's advocate a bit. But if they're like somebody who's really good at lateral force and they're trying to make a swing that requires a lot of AP force, they're really working against themselves, which is where you have to have an understanding of hey, I get it, you know, we we kind of we have preferences when it comes to golf swings and what we think is good and what we think is bad, but once again, what's the engine? And then let's build the car around the engine, right? So if the engine is really good at lateral force, I want to see a golf swing that looks a little more like Scotty's because we're gonna be able to shallow that thing out because lateral force is the shallower for us. So you give me somebody like me who has I have really flat feet. Like I'm not gonna say I have the flattest feet, but I have really flat feet. So for me as a flat footed player, I'm way better at lateral than I am AP. So for me, it's like anything that I do that gets the club working around and behind me is death. I want to get this club so steep and so far out, like because I'm really like I can ratchet up the lateral force big time. So that's going to be a good matchup for me. So it's just really once again looking at a player going, hey, you know, A, what are the bottom of their feet look like? B, how do they create speed and energy and force? And then how do I build a golf swing that's going to match that for them?

SPEAKER_01 28:00

What about a guy like um Matt? You know, going other end of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Is he uh big lateral player? Big laterals.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

So that's his that's his shallower because he's obviously very steep.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yep. Um and not a lot of torque, and like people are like, what do you mean, not a lot of torque? I see him doing his hips. Well, he has a lot of rotation, but that's not the same as torque, and we've talked about that before, right? Like if I turn and turn and turn and turn, and I kind of turn my entire body together, that creates a lot of rotation for sure, but it doesn't create any torque. And the example I always use is if I take a towel that's full of water and I turn my hands the same direction, I'm not gonna get any water to come out of that towel. But if I turn my hands opposite and equal, now the water falls out of that towel because I'm creating torque. So, yes, Matt spins his hips like crazy, but he also spins his chest like crazy with the hips, which doesn't create a ton of torque. So he doesn't have a lot of that AP that generates into torque. He's way more of a lateral player, which you know, I think I think that's a very extreme case, similar to how I would say couture is a very extreme case. As far as I know, Matt Couture is the only person that we've measured on force play to the tour player who doesn't move in a one, two, three kinetic sequence.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

You said Matt's almost opposite, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

I wouldn't say opposite, like vertical is still uh his last one, but he kind of turns and then kind of shifts and then stands up. Now, if you know anything about Matt Couture, when Matt first got out on tour, uh he either lost his card or got dangerously close to losing his card. And let me put this in terms that our listeners will understand, he almost lost his job because that's what it is for these guys. So he almost lost the ability to feed his family. So he almost lost his card andor lost his card by hitting the ball left. And Matt decided like, if I'm gonna have a career out here, I can't hit the ball left anymore. So what did Matt do? Well, he came up with a situation for him to where everything's a pull cut, everything's a pull cut, and this story's out there, so I'm not talking out of school, but Matt wanted to gain speed because he could see what was coming. So Matt tries to gain speed, gets with Dr. Scott Lynn. They work on getting the sequencing more in line with that one, two, three kinetic sequence to where we push, rotate, and then stand up. And they did that. And Matt gained a significant amount of speed. But when he went to the golf course and he moved in that one, two, three kinetic sequence, he saw a ball go a little more left than he's ever or than he's seen in a while, and it's an immediate abort for him because in his mind, he's got some trauma around seeing the ball go left. It means he might lose his job. And while he doesn't, he's made his money now, still doesn't want to lose his job, just like nobody listening to this wants to lose their job.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

What about a guy? Um, I don't uh Would you say Fitzpatrick is a fader of the ball? Does that mean that his matchup is a fade? That it it more so resembles a a fade or like Rom. Okay, so does that mean I don't know enough about Matt Wolf's ball flight. Does he hit more of a draw?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

I think that if you left Matt alone long enough, he would start hitting draws, but I think that he kind of understands that he needs to work it a little more left to right. But I think it's that I mean that's the thing, right? Is like if you're talking about matching up the ball flight to the swing, if I'm gonna be a big AP torque guy, like uh Matt Fitzpatrick, and we know that that's gonna move the hands out, right? Because if I torque, that's what moves that club back out in front of me. If I'm moving the club back out in front of me, then that should theoretically shift my path a little more left, which is part of the formula for hitting a fade. Just like if we're talking about Matt Wolf, who's a big lateral player, okay. Well, if that's a shallowing move, then that theoretically should allow for me to hit more of a draw pattern. So it's really kind of understanding how all the the pieces go together.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Um I think you see with Rory's swing, doesn't he have a a slight outside takeaway that then kind of gets Yeah, works a little more underneath? It works more underneath. Now that leads to him having this awesome like five to the right path and five up with a driver. Yeah, but does that also lead at times for him being stuck and we see that block show up or the opposite, you don't want to block it 2011 Masters, and he sends it left of left off a 10.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's tough, right? Like if you're getting, I would say five right and five up with your driver is pretty extreme. Not saying it can't be done. Obviously, Rory makes it work, but I think that's pretty extreme, right? So if you said I'm five right and five up, I'm I'm in my mind, I'm thinking you're hitting draws. Well, now let's say you're like on 10 at Augusta and you want to hit it pretty straight to a slight fade over the corner, which is exactly what they do, right? If I want to hit that shot, now all of a sudden I've got to shift that path left. Well, if I'm used to kind of being behind it and five right and five up, and now of a sudden I got to find a way to shift the path a little bit more left and cover it a bit more because if I'm hitting a fade, I'm probably not hitting five up on it, right? I'm probably a little more neutral with this. Like that's gonna be a big shift in what we normally do. And now that's a lot harder for us to kind of play both ends of that spectrum, which is why for me, I'm always trying to like figure out a way to get us closer to neutral. And I am not saying that I want people zeroed out, that is not what I mean by neutral, but from a club path perspective, you know, I want to see you somewhere between negative two and positive two, and now we can kind of do what we need to do. And just like I want to attack angle-wise, see you between negative two and positive two, because once again, it's just kind of keeping this thing in the pocket to where if you want to fade it, it's not that big of a stretch to hit a fade when you've been hitting a draw all day, or the opposite of that, you've been hitting a draw all day. Now it's a little easier to shift over to a fade. And the big thing is is when we're neutral with this delivery or in the pocket, the really cool thing is is now if I want to draw it or I want to fade it, because the delivery is neutral, I can kind of do a lot of this with my setup and my alignments with my body to shift things where I need them to be to hit these shots versus feeling like I have to make a completely different golf swing to get the ball to do something different.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

What does um with Bryson's swing? Because this is

Physics Of Steep Versus Shallow

SPEAKER_01 35:28

another extreme one.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Very extreme.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

And I think it's interesting just to hear the the matchups. He has a you know, one thing I notice about him that is that I don't see with a lot of other players is this his right his rear leg it looks like it's at a 45 degree angle when he's taking it back, pushing towards the target. Um tell us about his what you think about his matchups and what they're doing or because he's obviously hitting draws with everything.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Um yeah, I mean I I I don't I don't know per se. Uh I haven't really studied Bryson's golf swing. I don't think it's a golf swing that is really applicable to a lot of people other than him. Um, but I I think it's a you know generally when you think about golfers, you know, like I said, vertical force has to be accounted for because of gravity. And then what what you're really what really solid golfers do is they kind of quote unquote optimize two of the three forces. And I think what makes Bryson interesting is he's really trying to ramp the magnitude of all three forces because he's he's so enamored with speed and hitting it farther than everybody, uh, and that's kind of his shtick when it comes to golf. And I I think the thing that is not great about Bryson is I don't think he has a lot of efficiencies within his golf swing. I think it's more of a brute force scenario. And I don't know why it is that way, but like if you watch him take the club back, like his left leg completely buckles, uh, right leg kind of straightens, and then he almost kind of has this like reverse pivot move. You know, they like to call that recentering. I totally disagree with with that commentary about the golf swing, we don't recenter, but he has this very like almost forward and then back kind of move. And the thing is, is it's like if if that left leg is buckling like that, we know that the pressure is kind of getting trapped on the lead side with Bryson. He's not really getting that pressure into the trail side. So, you know, what does he do to kind of like offset that? Well, now because he's left at the top early, like super early, now all of a sudden, like everything starts moving away and transition, and I think that's where he really struggles because yes, you can move towards and away and kind of shallow it out a lot and like hit kind of you know big draws, which he kind of likes to do, but man, your timing better be on, like really on. And I think that's where he's been running into trouble here lately, is that it's really hard, and especially in major championships when the lights are the brightest, to manage that you know, at a high enough level to where he can play some really good golf. And and the thing that I've kind of noticed over the past few years with Bryson is that seems like it's gotten more and more extreme and lost some of the weight.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Right. That does seem that way, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

I just noticed that with his swing that it seemed more so than what I've noticed.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Um I kind of look at his swing like I look at like a 16-year-old drinking his first beer. You know, it's like, well, if I drink two of these things, I feel pretty good. So if I drink 12 of them, I'm gonna feel great. And I think he's got to a point to where they've overworked this pattern that he's applying. And look, you know, when you're playing on live, you know, you you don't have an agronomy team, you don't have these things that the tour has. And the golf courses are just easier, like they're not playing like super hard golf courses. And look, you know, Bryson hits a lot of shots, approach shots from the rough. He does not live, he does it in major championships. Uh, when there's not an agronomy team there growing that stuff out and making it, you can you can learn to to live with this, and he certainly has the brute force to deal with it. But I think when he gets out there in these major championships and the rough is super deep, and they've got the heather like they had at Shinnecock, and you start hitting it offline because this is difficult to manage, you know, there's a reason, in my opinion, that he's the like he's the only one playing his setup out there. Like he's trying to figure this out through the technology of the clubs, and how do I get the ball to go straighter? And you know, you just really I don't think he's gonna be able to engineer his way out of this problem. I think he's gonna have to to get a golf swing that adheres to physics a little bit more and allows him to you know deliver the club a bit more neutral because he definitely does not have a neutral delivery. The um I mean I just saw a thing where Akshay Batia, I believe it's Akshay, is talking about swinging at like nine right. I did see that. Yeah, am I saying that? No, nine left because he's a lefty. He's a lefty, yeah. Yeah, and it's like I get it. Like when things are good and when you can time things up, it goes well. But we've also seen Akshay struggle when he gets up there towards the top of the leaderboard and he hits one off the map. Yeah, and it's like the more you start shifting that path around, the more you have to start manipulating the face. Now, keep in mind when we're talking about tour players, the greatest manipulators on the planet. But I just don't think a lot of these things that we see out there on tour are really applicable to our golfers who are playing golf on the weekends or playing in a league or what have you.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Um with Akshay trying to go that far, that means you've got to be coming, you've got to have you could potentially have a quote stuck factor to your swing if you're trying to deliver it from that position. Let's go opposite, just because it's been talked about a lot, and they're showing these videos of Scotty from a year ago, and you do see him have certainly the opposite of a stuck move, and it gets going. I mean, I notice more than any other player, those arms get across his body real fast in transition. Yeah. Um and I think um maybe we've talked about it before, but his his is kind of a bit of a pull across, and then he's gotta back out of it, right? Because that's his his face opener.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yeah. Um which I think is why he has the issues with the right side of his neck and trap a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Is he because I've noticed it a little bit more this year when they show his ball flight. It certainly looks a lot more pulled than it ever has. Uh starting left, coming back right.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Um I just don't think he has enough break. You know, for for whatever reason, I I think you know, his hips get so left, it's unreal. Like he's slot, like let's call it a slide, right? Like he just slides like crazy. And to your point, then he kind of bends backwards to try to get the face back open uh a bit. So, you know, tons of lateral force. But I I think I think when he plays really well, the right foot definitely is all over the place, kind of dragging and and all that. But man, he plants that left foot hard and really uses that lead side break to kind of get. I'm not saying he hasn't kind of has hasn't kind of slid. He does, but he slides and then stops. And now I just think that he's lost that break a little bit, and now we're seeing when he finishes, a lot of times he's having to catch himself with both legs. So I I think that whatever whatever's happened has happened, but I feel like you know, was his break, his lateral break, maybe a little bit late to begin with? Yeah, I would say it probably is, but I think it's gotten even later, and I think that's where you're seeing that it just kind of keeps going. And to your point, the arms just kind of keep coming. and there's nothing to stop him and now he's kind of hit more of these poles than he has historically. Um I would also say like he's lost he's lost the ability in a way to keep the face more open because it seems like he used to he would hit poles like the ball would start left but then it would just fade more and it would still wind up on target line for him. But now it seems like he's got more misses to the left because he's pulling it but he's not keeping the face open enough to get it to curve more to the right to get back on target. I was about to just ask you that.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

When his if there is no lateral lateral break if that lead leg doesn't engage. Back to your your ring the towel scenario. This is going to lead me into my next question. But if it's not stopping and the arms are coming what he likes to do, the arms come across. So that that would be a face shutter like everything is now working rapidly left and shutting where in the past that body hanging back a little bit or or backing out of it's been his opener. If he goes to add a bunch of lateral or a bunch of braking force back in is he is he gonna have a a reset there where it's where it's like oh I've got to back out more for his matchup to get the face back shut or or is it going to start to work itself out?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

I think it's gonna work itself out but I I think that's it's always a challenge with the tour players because they have a window that they want to see this ball come out in and that that window is not permanent it moves. As the swing kind of changes over time as the elements that they're playing in kind of change over time that window kind of moves around a little bit so I would say the thing that would be the toughest for Scotty is you know if you add some lateral break to that and now all of a sudden we kind of get the the club a little more where it used to be we're getting the face to not want to be as shut it's not it's not that he shuts the face it's just the face is too square relative to the path. He doesn't hit any hooks right you very rarely see him hit one right to left or left like pull hook. You don't see that shot it's just the face is too square relative to the path it's not open enough. Yeah so I think the the problem is though is if we're talking about the face to path then we're also talking about loft and spin. So if we're talking about loft and spin when we're talking about face to path that's going to affect the window that he sees. And I think that's the hardest thing with the tour guys is is like you kind of have to tell him where we're going and you have to go hey this is what I'm doing swing wise but this is going to affect your window this way. And now like if you can connect those dots for them now they don't feel so crazy. But when you're doing swing changes with one of these guys and it moves that window they're they're very apprehensive of that because their job is to control that window. Yeah so I I think that you would you'd want to have that conversation with Scotty and go, hey, you know, we're gonna try to do this in order to move this window up and right. And I think once you kind of get him comfortable with that I think now he now he has the opportunity for you know the memories and go oh wait a minute that's that's kind of my old window like that's when I was really playing at a high level and not missing so many shots to the left.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Because he seemed at one time to be able to access pins on the right hand sides

Matchups, Forces, And Ball Flight

SPEAKER_01 48:09

of greens than many others could not because he could hit it higher and softer um but that was his matchup.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

I mean that was kind of his his deal um and it's weird too right like I think this I don't think this ever gets said and it probably should but like let's just say that we've got a spectrum and let's say on one side we've got shallow and on one side we got steep however you want to define that I don't care just shallow and steep in my opinion especially with the tour guys like it's they don't that swing isn't staying the exact same like the body feels different the body moves different like they've been traveling they slept funny you know physically it's changing they're doing work all the time on their bodies like ranges of motion change a little bit right things change so in my mind you've you've got this golf swing that's this living breathing thing it's it's not just this like piece of artwork that you hang on the wall and forever it stays the same it's always kind of changing and it's evolving and devolving right so in my mind swings like tend to kind of move a little right move a little left on the spectrum they're getting a little steep then they shallow it out then they got to get it a little steeper then they got to shallow it out that it's kind of always like moving kind of through this spectrum a bit and I and I I wonder about Scotty I don't think I've said this to you yet but I I kind of wonder about Scotty like was there a period to where he's kind of moving more to the right on the spectrum moving more steep and like he kind of had that window where it was in this range to where man he was just a world beater and now they're having a hard time like finding that again like did he really own that was that really you know you're doing the same stuff week after week month after month year after year but it's like I said kind of going through these stages I just wonder if if like they even know and I'm sure they do he has such a tremendous team around him but I I just wonder if they even know like where the breadcrumbs are to get back to to that because when he had that man to your point he's tough to beat and he's just really struggled with you know this kind of left this pull kind of left miss to where the the ball's just not working back on target enough for him.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Because wouldn't you say it looks and it it almost speaks to him as a player because he's still contending but it looks like it is a fight almost like it it it looks like there's this give and take pull back and forth on the golf course of it just not looking as he doesn't own that window. Yeah that rhythmical and just like not that he not that it was a a sniper rifle but just kind of like I'm aiming here I picked this target here's where I expect okay so think about yourself as a golfer yeah the minute that ball takes off you react.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Yeah it's either in the window or it's not in the window. Yeah whether you're thinking that way or not like you know like when you look up when you look for the ball you've trained yourself where that ball is going to be I think that's something else that makes transitioning from indoor like indoor golf like we do here to outdoor golf I think that makes it hard because you don't know where your window is. So but you kind of know where to look right in terms of the window. And that's why like you hit one you don't see in that you're like SOB or whatever you say when you're displayed and I think that's what you're seeing is he's he's very frustrated and I think the easiest way to frustrate a tour player is to take their ability to hit it through that window away from him.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Because he's he is more agitated than I've seen him. Yeah. And so there's something that that's why I say it it looks like it's this he he's in more of a fight on the golf course than he ever has been. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Um welcome to what the rest of us feel but yeah especially coming off the heater he was on like he owned that window for quite a while right and like had and look we we saw tiger own his window and the dominance that he went but that's that's controlling your ball is owning your window right like that's what when they say he controls his ball he owns his window like period like you do that and you're doing a lot of things well and then like the minute that you it's and you've gone through this I've gone through this you when you don't own that window you just feel like you have no idea where the ball is going off the face because you don't it's not fun.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

No terrible quickly jumping back to the um towel analogy um because I think that's a really good one you you did that for me a month or so ago you kind of showed me that and it it was a a bit of a light bulb moment um but you also did you sent me something yesterday and this kind of goes into the matchups but also a bit how people how your body moves where I'm trying in my golf swing I'm I'm trying to get this towel effect and I'm trying to hit the brakes with the lower body and let the upper then rotate um but as we saw in a video of mine it was like the entire upper body rotated and uh I thought it was interesting I thought it was so interesting that you should share it but you were saying that like well your your shoulders and you're so good at segmenting the body and knowing how it moves you were like well your shoulders aren't moving they don't want to move that way or that that's not how they should be moving.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

So walk walk us through anyone that's that's going to put the towel and that clicks with them that's listening how to ring the towel walk them through how the upper body works in that yeah so if we if we think about like standing over a golf ball okay north would be towards the golf ball south would be away from the golf ball if we think east west west would be towards the target east would be away from the target your shoulders actually work in east-west they don't work in north south which is a light bulb moment for me so so if you're watching on youtube I'm gonna show you yeah repeat that my shoulders work east-west they don't work north south so a nice way to think about this is if I put a stick across my shoulders and turn if that stick is turning parallel to the ground I'm a no no go I want to feel like my shoulders are working more up and down so the problem that you are having is that you've gotten significantly better at throwing the brakes with your lower body like way better but you throw the brakes and then your shoulders kind of want to move more south and kind of flat. Well the problem is is when your shoulders get moving flat and south the issue is is that your right shoulder goes forward towards the ball it starts trying to go north and now all of a sudden you're too close to the ball and you got to like figure out a way to line it up which tends to be doing some weird flippy stuff that you kind of like to do from time to time. So really the sequencing is as I'm loading the legs which once again is not rotational it's not northsouth it's linear it's east west as I'm loading the right leg loading the left leg loading the right leg loading the left leg as I'm kind of doing that I'm also kind of loading the shoulders right so if I load the right leg I also load the shoulder if I load the left leg I also load the left shoulder and I'm just kind of working it more like this in a very linear way but I've got two rotations in there too so once I've loaded the right leg and loaded the shoulders now I can rotate the body but now from down the line I've still got some shoulder tilt versus having this really flat shoulder tilt. And now I've really got a lot of struggle because now the clubs want to get way outside and that's where you were talking about feeling like you were kind of over the top and kind of feeling steep in transition and downswing. The uh best way to describe it if you're not watching on YouTube the shoulders what he's describing almost feels it almost feels like a a putting stroke to me like the shoulders that's that's how they're moving and so you're trying to implement that into a full swing um and it's uh it it's a unique feel but it it was a bit of a aha moment of oh well that's how you keep everything from getting so flat on one side or the other round and and around like I've yelled at you for you know going on however long we've worked together about getting the golf club around and behind your body when you finish. Yeah but if I get you working more this way and then this now my arms are wanting to stay in front of me versus wanting to go behind me.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Yeah. Which plays on the other side too of keeping keeping that club more in line with the buttons on your shirt yeah rather than it getting behind on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Yeah like there's you know kind of going back to our our matchup conversation a little bit you know I truly believe this and if somebody can prove me wrong I'm I'm all open for a discussion about this but I think when you look at these golfers on tour from a a golfing perspective from a what the swing looks like perspective you know they look very different. But if you were to look at this from a body type perspective well yeah they all look different you know Ricky Ricky Fowler and uh Thomas Dietree don't look anything alike. Yeah but it'd be really weird if their swings looked identical right so it's like the the body is different but I think if we looked at the golf swings from more of a physiological perspective what we would see is that while it looks very different a lot of the same things are having to happen throughout the body and like we're talking about the segments and how these different segments move and the sequencing that these segments move in it's very very consistent across the board like we're not seeing anybody like move in these different sequences like we're seeing a very consistent sequence across good golfers. So I think that where a lot of people struggle is that they see a Matt Fitzpatrick and it's looping away around like oh I want to do that. But once again if if they don't have the physical capacity to create large AP force to get that club back out in front like that's not going to be a winning move for them. Yeah so where I've really tried to do things differently with our YouTube channel from the content side is instead of saying hey here's a tour video and here's what you got to do like for me it's way more about explaining the different segments of the body and how they work and how they work together because I don't care what it looks like but this is how these segments have to move in time and space.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Yeah and why just like you said and that's where I was going next is you can still get some golf swings that look very different that are making money on tour but the internal sequencing all that's all that's basically the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

Like you're saying Couture's the only one that doesn't do it in a certain segment um and hopefully we'll get some good content coming up Saturday baby back at the honors coming up uh which is exciting

Owning Your Window Under Pressure

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

um I'm excited about it it's gonna be fun good to see good to see our buddy Ken looking forward to that Wayno um got a lot of got a new cast of characters joining the Deutro disciples all different people showing up and getting excited about it so um looking forward to a fun fun couple of days yeah should be good work on your game a bit yeah yeah I know you've uh got it quite a few things coming up you've got a qualifier yourself I believe that's gonna be happening while I'm down there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah yeah it's been a little quiet the last couple weeks starts to pick back up and it's they're just waiting for it to get hot enough for you. Yeah yeah yeah everybody likes to just wait till July in the most humid well maybe Memphis is more humid but in the most humid city in the state and then then play all our stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

Well that may that makes it way more fun it's it's fun when you got to take four shirts to the golf course with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Yeah I'm the yeah and I'm the one that's sweating through everything. So yeah so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

So much fun but yeah I mean it it's it's interesting like I'm glad we had this this conversation I mean I just you know you you you see it's just like there's it's a cause and effect relationship and I just feel like so many content creators on social media and YouTube you know they're looking at the effects and and trying to reverse engineer the cause if they're even doing that and it's just it it leads to just absolute destruction of people's golf swings you know and and that's where you know once again I'm biased but this is where you know having the opportunity to get on the force plates having the opportunity to get on 3D motion capture looking at how these different segments are moving through time and space like what are you good at doing uh and then building around that like that's huge that's honestly it's the biggest reason that I I feel like I've had as much success as I've had with players is I I really don't care what it looks like. I really do not um but I do care about matching up things that are going to work with their engine and that's really really key uh for helping golfers play better golf in my opinion is is what do they do well how do I stack as many things in their favor that are going to line up with them that are going to allow for them to get this ball to fly where we need it to fly and how do we get them to own their window yeah and then it's you know we get when we've talked about this but then it's like we just start playing boring golf man and that's where I think amateur golfers struggle the most is they they're in they love being in the search mode they love being in the let me try this let me try that there they love the the seeking of a better way but what I've done with you that I'm probably the most proud of is it's like hey Chuck this is how you swing it like this is what your golf swing is supposed to look like and we're not looking anymore we're not searching anymore we're not trying to find a a better or a different way we're not we're not getting clickbaited to death by seeing this drill and that like does that work in our favor and match what we're trying to do or doesn't it? And in a lot of cases it doesn't so we just can let that stuff fall to the wayside yeah we know we know my faults and if we can just keep gaining inch by inch on the fault everything else starts to clean up I uh couldn't have said it better myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

Yeah uh we'll send this out this was good uh I think it's interesting to hear from someone that knows the golf swing like you matchups and how different guys are making it work because a swing visually can look different from another what are they doing internally all the different pieces that come with that it's it's an interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah Chuck Gook uh Chuck Cook wrote an amazing book back in the day it's an old old golf book but uh closers and openers you know steepeners and shallowers however you want to say that but it's just really trying to to balance that equation right x equals y well if x is steep and y is shallow like how do we balance this out enough to where we get a neutral club delivery at impact and then once we have that it's like you can you can play golf you know like that's that's the thing I had a guy in here yesterday that I gave a lesson to and he's like man I want to hit a draw want to hit a draw want to hit a draw and I'm like okay fine like if you're on a T box and the lie is flat hit a draw I don't care right like if you can do that then do that but the minute the ball is on the ground and not on a T anymore now all of a sudden you don't get to pick. Like if you have a neutral delivery now all of a sudden it's like hey if it's below your feet you can fade it if it's above your feet you can draw it but you you've got to get to a place to where you play golf and I I going back to what we originally talked about with Vib, you know I I think I've spent most of my time trying to get him more neutral so that he can play golf. And there were multiple times I mean almost every single shot to be honest is hey this ball sits this way. This is the shape we're gonna get this is going to increase the yardage this is going to decrease the yardage this is you know where we need to be looking relative to our target. And the more you can get people playing golf instead of golf swing the better they're gonna go the better they're gonna play. So yeah it's been good been a fun episode this one flew by I feel like I don't know where this one went um I know we talk about how quickly they go typically but this one really felt like it flew by so if you are listening and have ideas about this if you have thoughts about this if you want to hear us talk about something particular feel free to to reach out to us. The easiest way most people have an Instagram you can find Chuck and check out his glorious hair by going to Hudlow423 on Instagram. You can reach out to me and check out my bald head uh by going uh at the forceplate guy on Instagram or measured golf and then if you are listening to this you can also view this podcast by going to YouTube and searching Measured golf and you'll find our channel to where not only do we have the podcast, but we also have a lot of video content that we've shot that talks about some of these different body segments and how they move through time and space. And lastly if that's just too much to remember you can always go to our website at measuredgolf.com and everything is linked there. So you can check things out and make sure to sign up for our newsletter as well as subscribe on any of the channels that you interact with us on so you never miss a new episode. So thanks again for listening and tuning in and until next time keep grinding