The Measured Golf Podcast

Are You Playing Golf Or Fighting Your Shot Shape

• Michael Dutro, PGA, Chuck Hudson • Season 7 • Episode 21

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You can have a great swing and still aim yourself into disaster. That’s the uncomfortable truth behind a lot of penalty strokes, “random” big numbers, and the feeling that your driver is either a weapon or a liability depending on the day.

We unpack a concept that sounds obvious until you really test it: your aim line is not your target line. When those two lines become the same, you end up trying to hit statistical unicorns like zero-curvature shots, or you force the ball to start away from where you’re aimed and “work back” to a line that was never the real target. We explain how launch monitor training, fixed alignment, and the famous white center line can quietly teach amateurs to play the wrong game. Then we rebuild the right one: start the ball on your aim line and let it fall toward the target based on your normal shot shape.

From there, we get practical. We use percent curve math to estimate how far the ball will finish offline at your carry distance, how to build a safe window that includes the occasional double cross, and why “good drives” still splash when your line is wrong. We also share a lesson story where fixing aim instantly changes club path behavior, plus a simple alignment stick practice routine that helps your TrackMan work transfer to the course.

If you’ve ever said “I aimed at the fairway and it still went OB,” this one will hit home. Subscribe, share it with a golf buddy who fights their start line, and leave a review if the aim line versus target line idea changes how you play.

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Welcome And Golf Season Updates

SPEAKER_01

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured Golf Podcast where you, the listener, sit down and join Chuck and I as we discuss all things golf. And it's been fun lately. We've had a lot of good topics. Chuck's got a good one for today. He's looking awfully pretty with his high and tight new hairdo. Always looking good, making us look way better on the social media and on the YouTube channel. So always appreciate Chuck for looking his best, making me look better. But it's been uh a busy couple weeks for me. Definitely, people were in full golf mode, a lot of lessons, a lot of people coming in trying to sort some things out. Uh, and Chuck's been playing a lot of golf and playing some pretty decent golf. So it's been uh it's been good, man. We're into golf season, and the only thing missing is I just haven't played as much golf as I want with this left hip situation. But we're eventually gonna get out there, we're eventually gonna play some golf, and I'm excited because I got some new new toys in the golf bag. Had a couple get delivered today. So I'm a couple fairway woods short of pretty much having a brand new golf bag.

SPEAKER_03

When you say high and tight, it makes me think Army. Does it look army-ish to you?

SPEAKER_01

It doesn't, it it's like it's like a very high-ranking general that gets away with a little more quaff than meets requirements. But the sides are definitely army-ish, they're they're tight.

SPEAKER_03

This doesn't that description doesn't sound like one that would play well with a dating profile.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I think it does. I think that hairdo, I mean, watch out, ladies of Chattanooga. Chuck's got a fresh do. I wouldn't want to compete with that, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but your hip is feeling better. It was disappointing you didn't play any golf while we were in Chattanooga together. Yeah, but it's starting to feel better.

SPEAKER_01

Starting to feel better. I hit a few balls today. I was smart. Um I'm really liking the new irons. I'm really digging that. And I I hit a few, I'm hitting them pretty good. And then I was like, oh well, let's let's step on it a little bit. It started getting a little cranky, and I I was smart and shut it down. So I probably hit about 20-25 shots today. Um, but it's feeling pretty good. I I think push come to shove. If I had to, I could go out and probably play golf, but just maybe try to keep it at you know 80% with with how fast I'm trying to swing it. But I think I could maybe maybe get it around and and honestly, I've got vacation next week. Uh, I'm not gonna do much. It's gonna be a good recovery week for that thing. Uh do some exercises during the you know, during the mornings before we go to the beach. But I think when I get back from the beach, man, I'm just I'm gonna roll the dice. I think I'm gonna start playing because I've got to I've got less than 10 rounds of golf in this year. I mean, that's pretty sad.

SPEAKER_03

And I would hate to be in your part of the world where the weather's so good and not be playing golf.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, it's weird though, too. It's it's kind of funny how things work out. But even if I was healthy right now, wanted to play golf, I've been so busy teaching, uh, I don't know that I would even have the time to go play golf. I might get a little a couple evening nine holers in or something like that. But it's it's been rocking and rolling here in Ann Arbor.

SPEAKER_03

Nothing better. That's my favorite time of day to play, is the uh evening nine. There's nothing better.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's kind of nice. The wind dies down. Um get some pretty sunsets. We could always do sunset heart hands together if we're not playing well and need a good laugh. Um, but yeah, I I also enjoy playing the evening round. The only thing is you need to make sure you're playing your evening rounds at a golf course that doesn't have like pooling water because otherwise you're you start fighting the mosquitoes, and I I sure hate that.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think I'd want to play somewhere that had pooling water constantly.

SPEAKER_01

Public golf, baby. You you can you can find some pooling water and uh find some mosquitoes.

SPEAKER_03

Uh there tomorrow starts uh the Chattanooga men's metro and it's at a uh it's at a public golf course, but it's a public golf course that I like.

SPEAKER_01

No, those don't exist.

SPEAKER_03

I I'm sure I'll come back next week with a rant on things that I saw. But I I have an affinity for this place. And I it's a muni, but it's a well-kept Muni. Um but I'll probably still have something to say. Um I will be experiencing

Public Golf Etiquette Gets Real

SPEAKER_03

for the next two days.

SPEAKER_01

It is a tournament, though. So hopefully the bunkers get raked, ball marks get fixed. Uh, and hopefully that that keeps the ranting to a minimum. Because those are really those are my two primary rants about public golf is that the ball marks and the non-raked bunkers, like that it takes no time, it takes no effort. Um, and it just really frustrates me that more golfers don't don't take that seriously.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we probably won't have that. We probably won't have the non-fixed ball mark. Most, I would hope most guys there know how to take care of things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I think, you know, I had to say something during the US AM qualifier with Vibby to one of the players in the group about, you know, hey, fix your ball mark. And I was kind of surprised I had to say that. But I I I just think it's I just think it's young. I just think it's people in general, man. Like there's this certain kind of level of entitlement that exists out there anymore, and people just feel like somebody's job is to come behind me and fix this. And it's not good, man. Like it, it's you know, if you're playing in a tournament and you're being hosted at a nice club, you know, if you want to get invited back, I don't know, man. Maybe maybe return the golf course better than you found it, or at least as good as you found it. But when you're having a bunch of ball marks out there and and things are getting roughed up, if I'm the membership, I don't want to have that tournament back.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. No, I wouldn't. And that's why a lot of people are not hosting this stuff anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, it's it's I certainly understand the economics of hosting golf tournaments, especially here where I live in Michigan and the season's so short, and you don't want to give the golf course up for a few days in an already short season. Um, I think that's probably why, and we've talked about it in the past, Tennessee on the AMP side tends to do a pretty good job of getting you guys some nice host courses. Uh, so the season's a little longer. There's probably a little less pressure to squeeze every day out of the season. But up here, man, it's I get it. And if you do, if we're lucky enough to get invited to a nice golf course, you know, I I I hate I hate to think this, but you know, I I don't know where we're going, but it you know, we're talking about slow play and going out there and dinging people for that. I think we need to be dinging people for for ball marks and and and not doing a great job raking. I mean, I saw a couple rake jobs. Luckily, it didn't, it didn't affect Vibby at all, but I saw a couple rake jobs, man, uh at the AM qualifier that were terrible. And it's like, dude, like, do you want to be the reason somebody misses out by a stroke? Like, how like put yourself in their shoes? Like, they don't want to have to deal with this, and it's just not that hard to rake a bunker, man. I I don't know how how we can't even seem to get that right anymore.

Golf Trips And What Matters

SPEAKER_03

Um you have any other you don't have any golf trips coming up, do you?

SPEAKER_01

No, uh no. I mean vacation. We've we've flirted with the idea of maybe sneaking in a trip to St. Andrews. I know that's that's kind of out there in the ether. Um Gary, uh listener of the podcast, great guy, great mate over there, uh, is always happy to have us come over and play some golf with him. So I might try to sneak into St. Andrews depending on how the hip feels. But uh no. Uh I was supposed to go up north, but the hip got in the way of that.

SPEAKER_02

That's what it was. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, so kind of, and I can I can swing that again. That's that's not that hard. I know a lot of members at Kingsley Club and luckily know the guy that designed and built the place, so that helps. Um, but yeah, I mean it's I'm definitely that's what I'm kind of saying with with after vacation. I'm gonna get out and play some golf because the last thing I want to happen is fall gets here and I haven't played any golf, and then I gotta suffer through the winter and just really feel like I haven't played any golf. Especially with the new sticks. They're fun. I like them.

SPEAKER_03

It's hard not to play with new toys when you get them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it is hard to play not play with new toys.

SPEAKER_03

I'd be curious if any of our listeners have been to the end of the month. I'm headed up to Nova Scotia to Cabot.

SPEAKER_01

Cabot Cliffs. Yep.

SPEAKER_03

The Cliffs and Links course. Uh, they look fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

I haven't I know people that have been there, and I have heard nothing but positive things about both those properties.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, good. Well, I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01

Obviously do a pretty cool job, man. I I like what Cabot does. Uh it's once again kind of your destination golf. Uh, but they're they're very good at that. They're very good at picking unique pieces of property, doing interesting things with them. You know, it's the the one that I kind of think of because I've I've been there the most is is uh Cabot Citrus Farm uh down, what is that, just north of Tampa. And it, you know, it's Florida, and you wouldn't really expect to find something that interesting there, but that place is really, really interesting what they've done there. And I I think it's gonna get better as it kind of settles and and matures over time. But I I think they do a nice job, man. It's a nice golf experience. The housing's generally pretty nice, wonderful showers. I don't know if they're quite as good as the showers at the honors uh I proposed to the shower before I left. Unfortunately, it said no. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's those things are nice, man. Like, and and I think a lot of times it gets overthought because give me a comfortable bed, give me a super nice shower, and what else do you need? Because I'm exhausted. If I'm on one of these golf trips, I'm playing golf from sunup to sundown. And like, what else do you need? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Speak of the honors, it was funny. We filmed last week and we finished filming at 11 o'clock p.m. The next time I looked at my watch, it was 1 a.m. And we had a You were still there. Yeah, I was still there, and we had a conversation that blew my mind. You you thought I was dumb, but now you're figuring out that I'm not the only dumb person out there. Um and I said, We need we should have just filmed the another episode right then during that discussion.

SPEAKER_01

Um I think people would have got a good laugh.

SPEAKER_03

I know I didn't I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.

Aim Line Versus Target Line

SPEAKER_03

I was laughing pretty hard.

SPEAKER_01

I was digging deep in the insult, Ben, to tell you exactly how smart I thought you were. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Until you found out, as I said. I don't think you're wrong. No one else thinks about this. So the conversation I was uh I think the next day or something, or two days later, I was going to play in a qualifier. And we were talking about a couple of holes, and it was these t-shots, and it's it's one of these and we've talked about these t-shots multiple times, yeah, because they're so dumb. It's one of these places that has out of bounds on both sides. Those are terrible golf holes, and um you you kept talking about well, you have you have all this, you know, here's you know, we mapped it and I mapped it, and uh you were asking how wide we have, and I was saying how wide it was, and you were like, I I don't I'm I don't understand why can you not aim in the middle of these of your points here? You've got enough room either side. Why can you not aim in the middle and hit that ball on that line? And I said I I can't remember what I said, but somehow we got down the the path of me explaining what my ball was going to do.

SPEAKER_01

So which I could not from a from a physics perspective make sense of.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So for the listener to make this easy, fair straight fairway, out of bounds on both sides. You've got 50, I think at the widest point it was like 57 yards wide. So we had enough room either way to aim in the middle of the fairway. And I said, Well, am I hitting hitting this push draw or am I hitting this pull cut? And you were like, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me. Why are you not just hitting it down the middle and letting it fall one way or the other? And I was like, Well the the ball is gonna start, I gotta start it somewhere. And you were like, Yeah, on the line that we've picked, and and I could not understand, neither one of us could understand why the other was confused.

SPEAKER_01

And I think our relationship is maturing to a point to where we don't make sense to one another anymore, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I was like, I was so like it took us an hour to get to the no one's confused anymore. So the first hour was spent of just telling each other that you're dumb, no, you're dumb. And then it divulved finally we get to the hour mark, and and I finally understood what you were saying.

SPEAKER_01

Which I'm embarrassed, it took me an hour to explain this to you. I just couldn't understand where you were coming from.

SPEAKER_03

So for the listeners, picture a dead straight fairway, and you have thrown you have we have spray painted a straight line all the way down this fairway in the very middle of it. And essentially, that is the line. If you were hitting a ball on track man and you had a TV screen there to show the grid, you're essentially seeing the same thing. We're seeing this fairway, we're seeing the white line down the middle. How my entire life I have been aiming is that I have been aiming this ball, I've been putting my my I've been aligning to this very straight line, this white line. But then I've been hitting a ball that at no point hits that line. It would either start right of it or left of it, and then I'm trying to bring it back to the line. And you're like blown away and flabbergasted by what I'm trying to do. And you're like, no. You line up and you hit this ball. The ball has to start on this line, and then it can fall one way, then it can move left away from the line, or right away from the line. And what I couldn't figure out is that I'm so used to getting on track, man. I'm trying to get this ball to land back on the white line. You're like, no, that's that's so difficult to do. Why are we trying to land it back? It needs to be falling away from the line.

SPEAKER_01

And I'll let you explain it because you can explain it better than I can, but it might take me an hour because it took me an hour to explain it to you the first time.

SPEAKER_03

So then this the second half our second hour was me feeling dumb that I'd ever tried to do it the other way. And then it was like, oh my gosh, this this seems a lot simpler. Of if you know what you do, whether you're a guy that's path is to the right or to the left. Like, can it change? Yeah, but but what do you typically do? For me, my path is typically two or three to the right. And this whole time we've been working together, we've been just talking about, well, you gotta get this face, like, get the face square, get the face square, get the face square. Get as close to zero as you can. And I'm like, well, no, I gotta get it. If I've got a path three to the right, I've got to get this thing somewhere between one and three open. And I I I don't think you understood why I was trying to do that, and I didn't understand why I was trying to get the face at zero, because I would see the ball start go a little further left than I would like. And then it was oh my gosh. If I if I get this ball started online, because it's so much easier just to bring the face back to to square or somewhere around it. I just need to be somewhere around square. My path is typically to the right. Well, this ball is going to move left. So if I aim 15 and 20 feet right and just let it move left, I've now taken a lot of goofy, because you were you were like, I don't understand how you hit these balls offline at times. Like, how do you do this? And it's because I'm over here trying to if if uh as you've explained it, the face is always reacting to the path. Well, I'm trying to shift my path like six to the right to hit some uh uh push draw, which which you say doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01

I mean it exists, I just don't think it's a I don't think it's a sound idea.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right, right. It exists, but it's so difficult to do. And so now my face can get all over the planet because it's reacting to the path that's now moved extreme in one direction.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, um but I was so blown away, and uh I I get like four holes through the qualify, the first four of these terrible T-shots, and I'm right down the middle on all of them, and it was so freeing to I could not you brought up these four holes to me no less than 763 times, and you're like, I just I hit it out of bounds like 50 of the time. And I'm like, Chuck, how do you hit it out of bounds? Like, I've seen you hit your driver, it's a weapon, and like you constantly talk to me about like seven and fifteen at the honors, and I'm like, Chuck, like you the water's not moving, like, how are you hitting it? And now now I know I 100% know why you do what you do now, which is nice because before I get into it, we went out onto the honors, played a few holes together before I left on that trip, and I I think we saw some positive things uh in terms of getting you aimed where you needed to be aimed. And then it started like the ball flight actually started making sense to us, and I think you saw in your qualifier that it was a lot easier to maneuver the golf ball around the golf course.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I was no longer trying to shift the path all around and then and then manipulate the face. It was just hey, just get the face pointed where you're aimed on this on this target line, yeah. And then just let it go left or right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh away from the preferably left, because that's what we typically do.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yeah, yeah. Mine being more of a left ball flight, and um man, it really freed me up. So I hope people listen, like I hope they're listening and thinking I need to go out and try this.

SPEAKER_01

But unfortunately, there I've every reaction because you challenged me, and I like this, and I I think it was a good challenge. You're like, look, start bringing this up in every lesson and see how people react to it, yeah. And and see what their reaction is. And the funny thing is, is like I bring up AIM and people are like, I get it, and then I explain it to them, like, wait a minute. I and you can like see this like glazed look come over their eyes, and and they're just out to lunch on this. But I I really don't think people get it, I really don't. Um yeah, you had lessons the next day, and then you've had you had one in Lansing yesterday, and you said a presentation brought it up there right over everybody's head, and until I started breaking it down, and then they were like, Well, wait a minute, that that actually makes sense. And I'm like, But yeah, of course it does.

SPEAKER_03

It was um i i if you're playing golf, it made me so it was so freeing because I now wasn't trying to get this ball to start in one spot. And finish in another, but without over curving the line and but and also trying to like get the face.

SPEAKER_01

I think an easy way to say it is you were trying to get the ball to land where you were pointing the face.

SPEAKER_03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Which is really hard to do. Yeah. Because it means you can't curve the golf ball.

SPEAKER_03

Right. You can have zero curve to it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, if you're trying to land the ball where you're pointing the face, that means you have zero curvature, and like I explained to you for an hour, is a mathematical statistical anomaly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. To be zero, zero.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um and I I have a hard time seeing the straight lines, anyways. We figured out that I may not be able to see in general, but um We figured out a lot that night.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But uh Chuck was convinced at 1 a.m. that the world was flat and everything he knew was upside down.

SPEAKER_03

Not a flat earther. That's good. The uh but the next day it was so much like we talked about, I was like, yeah, I know how to pick targets. I didn't, but I really didn't know how to pick targets.

SPEAKER_01

Like I like I did understand You understood where you needed to get the ball to, you just didn't understand how to get it there.

SPEAKER_03

How to get it there, yeah. So then it helped I could tighten some things up where I had gotten too conservative in areas. Um and we could tighten up some lines, or it was um if you've got water all down the left and you've got your you know 160 yards in from the fairway, it was now really easy to say, okay, the the target line, our white line, is the aim line is pretty far to the to the right of this pin. And now swing super free, just line the face back up on that line, and if your path is anything to the right, that ball is now

Use Percent Curve To Aim

SPEAKER_03

curving towards the pin.

SPEAKER_01

Bingo.

SPEAKER_03

Um and if it goes dead straight, it goes dead straight, and you're still safe, you're putting it in.

SPEAKER_01

But if you picked a good aim line, you know, we're accounting, you know, kind of what what led us to the the conversation we ended up having was we were talking about percentage of curve. Okay, so I got my calculator out. You uh you said you carry your driver 280, right? I put that into feet, that gets me to 840. So 840, uh keep that in mind because I'm gonna forget it here in a second and I'm gonna ask you for it. But 840. Let's say you go 840 and you curve it 5%. And my baseline for a scratch player is the ball curves 5%. Like that's kind of the math that I use for players. So if you curve 840 feet by 5%, you wind up with a 42-foot curve. Okay, so what that's basically saying is that if you want to hit a golf ball on a particular line, that and which is the target line, I want the ball to land on this spot. If I'm gonna curve it 5%, which is my allowance, then I have to start this ball or at least aim this ball 42 feet right of that line, that aim line. Or I'm sorry, that that target line, excuse me. So kind of the the reference point that you used is if you've ever been on track man or any launch monitor, there's a line that runs right down the middle. And everybody's trying to get the ball to land on that line. But the thing that's weird about being in a simulator is we have this thing called a fixed alignment, meaning that we're trying to hit the ball into the middle of the screen. So that white line isn't actually where our target is, it's where we're aiming. So our job as golfers is to own our line and to start that ball on the white line. But then our job is to understand which way do we curve it? Like you said, do I have a path to the right which creates a draw bias, or do I have a path to the left that creates a fade bias? It doesn't matter which one, but we need to understand which one we're likely to do. Now, if you're listening to this and go, well, I curve it both ways, probably need to work on that a little bit and get this down to a one-way curve, in my opinion. So once we understand that your chuck and you curve it right to left with the driver and you carry it 280 yards, I can do some simple math and go, what's 5% look like? Well, 5% looks like 42 feet. Okay, fine. So now I know that if I need the ball to land in a particular spot, my aim line's got to be 42 feet right of that. And now I'm good. Now, here's the other thing. We potentially can double cross this thing and miss it the opposite way. Well, we we need to just do simple math and we need to understand that 5% works both directions. So now we're like in this 84-foot kind of window, if you want to call it, and if I get that back into yards for people, because 84 sounds like a big number, we're talking about a 28-yard window.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's essentially 15 yards either way, right?

SPEAKER_01

So, like, let's just make it simple and say 30, right? Like you did. So now it's like I am kind of trying to figure out where do I need to aim this ball to get it into the fairway. Well, for most people that are playing public golf or or just not tournament golf, it's very rare you're gonna have a fairway that's not at least 30 yards wide. That's not a particularly wide fairway.

SPEAKER_03

So that would be a small fairway, right?

SPEAKER_01

So that's not like particularly narrow, but what we want to do is we want to kind of go, okay, if I draw, like you said, that line down the middle of the fairway, okay. Do I have 15 yards on either side of that line where I'm landing this ball at 280 yards? If the answer is yes, send it. Like just go ahead and send it. Like you got nothing to worry about on this hole. Now let's pretend that there's a choke point at 280, okay, and let's say there's water down the left, and it narrows down to let's say 15 yards of fairway, and you're still trying to hit it in the fairway because you want to be able to take advantage of this approach shot. Well, now you put your line down this very narrow fairway, and you're kind of looking at 15 yards on either side of where you've put that line, and you realize that the left kind of buoy, if you will, of your window, that left buoy is in the water. Oh, okay. Now we got two choices. We can either back that window up to where it's not in the water, which may not be possible, or I have to shift my aim line from the middle of that fairway to the right side of that fairway or even a little farther right to make sure that we're not going to curve this or hit a good T shot that curves 5% and winds up in the water. But you see, people hit good drives into the water and out of bounds all the time. It's that they've picked a poor aim line andor they've overcurved the golf ball. So it's really, really helpful for people to stop trying to work it back perfectly straight every time and hit these pull or pull fades and push draws. Like that is an unfortunate kind of byproduct of playing golf with a white line in front of you on a track man or a foresight or whatever device you're using. We've got to understand that we as golfers curve the golf ball. It is very rare that you go out onto the golf course and hit a perfectly straight golf shot. It is very rare. And the reason is because most people do not play golf with a zero club path. Now, a lot of golfers think they do until they get on a trackman or a foresight and see that their path isn't exactly straight. But very few people hit a very straight golf ball. So that's fine. You don't have to, and that's not where the rules like say that you have to hit this ball from point A to point B on a perfectly straight line. So we know that we curve it. How much do we curve it? Well, if you're one of my players that I get to work with on the PGA tour, we're working on a 3% or less curve. If you're a zero handicap, we're around a five. Okay. If you're a 15 handicap, okay, now we got to start talking because if we're a 15 handicap, now of a sudden that number's probably closer to 10% curve. Okay, now here's the kicker, though. A 15 handicap on average hits it a lot shorter than a scratch player would. So let's say Chuck at a zero hits at 280. Let's say my 15 handicap hits at 240 in the air, carry. We're not talking total. So 240 carry, okay, times three to get it to feet. That's 720 feet. If I multiply that by 15, okay, or yeah, 15, now I'm at 108 feet of curve. Now, why do you think 15 handicappers are hitting so many balls out of bounds and in the water? Well, it's because the ball curves too much. Yeah. So what we have to do with those 15 handicappers is we've got to decrease the amount of curve. And that's how we get them better at driving the golf ball and hitting better iron shots and things like that. But trying to go out there and start the ball right of where you want it to finish, or start the ball left of where you want it to finish and then curve it back, that's kind of not a great strategy, and is going to lead to a lot more balls out of bounds and in the water than you prefer.

SPEAKER_03

And that's where I was, and that's we couldn't figure out.

SPEAKER_01

Tell people, so clipped. Uh, we had a very interesting conversation because you're a good boy doing exactly what I asked you to do, and you are putting all of your rounds into clipped, and you went out and played in this qualifier two days after or one day after I left. It was two days, two days after I left. Okay, and you hang around a score with your driving of about 90, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, okay. So you're right around 90. Now, to give people a reference, every category of your golf game, so driving approach around the green putting is scored on a uh scale of zero to 200, with 200 being perfect, 100 being a tour player average, and zero being zero. You just did awful, like you hit it out of bounds every T-box. So you live around 90, which is very good, which is probably right around where a scratch would be with their driver. We didn't really work on your driver swing while I was down in Chattanooga. I don't even think you hit that many drivers in front of me, if any, that I can remember. And you go out and play in this qualifier, just simply shifting your mindset with how to aim this golf ball, and you scored out at 103, which is the highest we've ever seen out of you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, it made things so much easier.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and this is a golf course you hate driving the golf ball.

SPEAKER_03

It's not a fair, it's not a fun tee shot golf course.

SPEAKER_01

You called me and told me that, and I said, Congratulations, Chuck. You now know how the average PGA tour player feels driving the golf ball. And you did it at a place that you have nightmares about and have talked to me about in great depth because you're like, I'm gonna play these four holes and I'm gonna hit three of the balls out of bounds.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And you couldn't understand how that was possible, or or when I would tell you that oh, I hit this ball off the planet, and you're like, I don't understand how you do that. Like you're we've seen your your trap man data, like you don't ever move, you don't ever move outside of a realm that would be possible for you to hit that shot. Yeah. Um and it was back it came back to I'm trying to manipulate this ball to curve away from the the aim line and bring it back to the same aim line, which was also the target same the aim line, the target line were the same thing.

SPEAKER_01

So, like hole number one at Chattanooga Country Club, you've got the Tennessee River down the right side, right? Chuck was essentially aiming into the middle of the river to try to hit it in the fairway.

SPEAKER_03

Well, no, I would I would aim in the middle of the fairway, like I would pick my target, but then I would try and start the ball in the middle of the Tennessee River. In the middle of the Tennessee River, and then bring it back because I was like, Well, my path doesn't my path is so close to zero with a driver or is a little left, but I hit up we won't get into that conversation about your path being left and how much you hit up on it. But I was trying to then start this thing so far right because I was like, Well, I've got to get the face open relative to the target line, but close to the path. So I'm I'm trying to hit this like sand mountain slinger out into the Tennessee River. And for anybody that isn't watching, Michael's head is uh dropped and he's he's scratching his head, but that's that's what I was trying to do.

SPEAKER_01

And then you I mean you would talk to me about your driving Chuck, and I would be like, What is wrong with this guy? Like, I've seen him hit this ball, and dude, you hit your driver very well. Obviously, clip scored you out at a 103 in that round, which is very, very good. But I mean, it it's it's just absolutely comical to me how we were this far apart on just aiming the ball. Let it like take the swing out of it, and and that's that's kind of the thing. It it was funny. I did that presentation in Lansing, Michigan yesterday for a group of individuals, and that was kind of my closing remarks. I was, you know, and I was almost embarrassed to say it, but I'm like, guys, because I I had had this conversation about aiming and I'd walked them through it, and everybody's like heads exploded, kind of like yours did, and we kind of got through it all, and they all asked the scenarios like you did, and and this, that, and the other. But my my closing remarks were basically like, guys, likely like they're all good, like these guys care, these guys practice, they wouldn't be showing up to this thing if they didn't. Uh good golfers, accomplished golfers. But I'm like, guys, you know, you you may or may not need track man, you may or may not need force flights, you may or may not need a golf lesson, but if you're aiming it in a way to where you have to play hero golf and hit it perfect every time, that's what's really holding you back. And and I'm I'm I told you this that night in Chattanooga. Like, I'm almost embarrassed that I assume that people understood this because I don't think they do, and I'm sure there's a lot of people who have probably already tuned out on this podcast, like, oh, they're talking about aim, I know how to aim. I don't I don't think people do.

SPEAKER_03

Everybody that I've talked to about it since they've not thought about it that way, and it's what goes hand in hand with what you're trying to get your players to do, which is continue to present the face square at impact. Yeah. And it all came together that evening of now I understand what we've been working towards, which is how do we get the face and and we we talked about like getting the face neutral, getting the face neutral, but I would still see some shots that moved a little bit further left than I would like. But if I'm they moved left compared to me not starting it right and bringing it back to the line, they they started right where I was trying to aim, right? And they moved away from the aim line, and I didn't understand that my target line needs to be left of the aim line, they can't be the same line. Um and so then it all started to click of oh I I just need to swing and just think about bringing this face back to a good impact position and let the ball curve from there. And and you don't have to shift your path a ton, and you don't have to be doing all this goofy stuff, which would in some uh situations would lead me to these uh bizarre shots that I would hit.

SPEAKER_01

So it's because I'm trying

How Bad Aim Breaks Swings

SPEAKER_01

to go. I get uh a junior golfer playing some AGA events, um pretty decent player, shoots shoots some good scores, but his like delta or his scoring differential is gigantic. He can shoot 68 and he can shoot 88, and he can do them back to back.

SPEAKER_03

That's almost pretty impressive that you can do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And his dad's like, I just don't get it. Like, I think the kid's a mental case, like I don't know what's going on. So, anyway, he comes in and he's warming up, he's a lefty, and his club path is nine degrees rightward or nine degrees out to end for a lefty, okay, relative to the aim line. Okay, so his path is like positive nine, but he's a lefty, so he's kind of out to end, right? And he's hitting a few shots, and I mean, dude, this thing is like coming up nine every time, like every time, like it's not fluctuating. He swings it nine degrees right, uh-huh. And I like start asking him some questions, and I'm like, hey, how are you hitting it? And he goes, I'm hitting it great. And I was like, huh. Okay. So, like, you know, he's curving it probably close to eight, nine percent with this nine to the right club path. He's gonna have to have the face pretty shut to his target line. Keep in mind he's a lefty, so he's gonna have to have his face pretty shut to the target line to kind of get this ball started far enough right to land on the white line. So I ask a few more questions and I go, hey, let's say we hit this shot perfect. Okay, absolutely perfect. Where's it gonna land? Like, point to me on the screen where it's gonna land. And he points to the white line. I went, okay. So I had the conversation with him about how this is his aim line, the target is somewhere else, and he's like kind of miffed a little bit, and I was like, look, just do me a favor. I go, I want you to start it right on this white line for me, and let's just see what happens. Would you know it, Chuck? His path, I swear to you. Okay, I wish we had his dad on as a guest. His dad's jaw hit the ground in three swings. He went from nine right to zero. Whoa. And his dad's like, we have been working on this for months, we can't figure it out. I go, it's he's trying to start it, just like you, far enough away from the target line to where when it fades, it lands on the line. And this is the problem that I see with golfers not understanding aim. People have these crazy club paths who are otherwise pretty decent ball strikers. And it's because they're trying to start the ball somewhere to get it to wind up somewhere that they don't understand is where they're aiming. And they're not letting themselves or they're not mentally allowing themselves to see the curvature of the shot. They think they're gonna hit it straight, and we're not hitting it straight. So we've got to understand how important this is and how much this actually affects golfers because I don't think people have good like really bad golf swings. I think people are trying their best with their understanding to get the ball to land on target, but people don't understand where the target is. So the funny thing was is I delete the shot that went zero club path, and I put up the dispersion chart on track man. And dude, you could have thrown a blanket over these shots that this young man had hit that started nine right. They curved a bunch, but you could have thrown a blanket five yards left of the white line where they were landing. You could have thrown a blanket like a picnic blanket over these things, and I'm like, he has the capacity to do the same thing and to hit quality shots. It's he doesn't have the capacity to aim correctly for his shot shape because he's trying to get it to land where he's aiming, and that's not how it works. But you know, we had to fix the face for him because he's used to trying to really jam this face to get the ball to start far enough right. But once we straightened out the, I mean, this kid just starts putting on a laser show and it's probably curving it at two to two to four percent, which is, like I said, better than a scratch level player. So I I really think conceptually people were messing up their golf swings by trying to force the Ball to do something that it can't actually do. And I told this young man this. I told the people in Lansing this, and I told you this. If you're aiming the face where you want the ball to wind up, where you want it to land, if you're aiming the face the same as your target line, if your aim line and your target line match, it is a statistical anomaly when the ball gets close to the hole. It really is. It is absolutely bizarre. And that's why people aren't stuffing it more often because they're literally treating their aim line and their target line as the same. We've already discussed how the ball is going to curve. So now because I've got my target and my aim line the same, the ball is always the minute it starts curving, it curves away from where we want the ball to wind up. Why do you think people shoot high scores? Well, maybe it's because the ball is always working away from the target instead of working towards.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's just the way it works.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. The um you said so I was listening to you give uh teach a lesson when you were down here in Chattanooga, and you said that the the face is a reaction to the path. I think I have correct me if I'm wrong. That's what I'm saying. But so I previously was aiming and trying to swing in a way that my path was driving where the ball was going and not the face. Like I understood the importance of the face. But because I was trying to get this ball to land back on the white line after starting it on the white line, I was doing all of these crazy things with the path to be so extreme, which then caused the face to be extreme. Um because it's it's reacting to the path. Well now, sometimes it may be wide open, sometimes it may be way shut, it's it's rotating a ton already. And then it was switched the mindset, okay, let's just put the face back on the target line, back on the aim line. Let's put the face back on the aim line. And then let's let it go towards the hole. How would you do that? And it was like, oh I'd just I'd I'd own my line and I'd hit it down this aim line and let it start curving.

SPEAKER_01

Here's a fun one for you. And I think this is what actually drove it home for you. I said, hey Chuck, when you're putting and you know that the putt breaks and you consult with your caddy and you know which way this breaks. Let's say it breaks right to left, I go, where do you aim it? And you're like, Well, I aim it where where we we picked a target right of the hole. And I go, Well, why don't you just aim it at the hole, try to shift the path right and hook it in there? And you're like, Well, that's dumb. And I go, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that is that's true. I've forgotten that. That was what drove it home. That if you can think about hitting shots like you think about hitting putts, because no one would try and get the the ball to ever not curve towards the cup. Um, so yeah, that that was a a light bulb moment.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and here's a fun one for you about putting that I don't think going back to our aim thing, okay. This is a little more wide conceptual than that. It said, I don't know, 762 million times on every golf golf telecast that players are trying to leave the ball under the hole because it's an easier putt. It's categorically false. Let's think this through. If I have an uphill putt, okay, and I push it or pull it a little bit offline, let's just say it's an uphill straight putt. If I push it or pull it a little bit, as it's losing speed, it curves away from the hole. If I have a downhill straight putt and I push it or pull it a little bit, as it loses speed, it curves back towards the hole. I have to be, and there there's an actual um there's a name for that phenomenon. I can't, I can't, I don't know what it is. I didn't go to school for physics, but there's a name for this phenomenon. But what I'm getting at is it's actually easier to make a downhill straight putt, because you have a wider margin of error than it is an uphill straight putt.

SPEAKER_03

Interesting. Because it's trying to get that yeah, I can see what you're saying now because the the low point, the ball's the gravity is trying to pull it to the low point, correct, and the low point starts moving towards the cup, correct. Interesting, and I didn't think about that.

SPEAKER_01

It is way easier to make a downhiller, and that's why I think people get worried when they hit one above the hole, and then they're afraid to smack it past, so they kind of have it at dying speed, and then like it tends to catch edges and fall in kind of on the sides versus that uphill straight putt that everyone's like, Oh, I got an easy one finally, and they can't seem to get one in the hole to save their life, but it's it's very like this is what I'm talking about like things that are taken for granted. I just don't think people understand all the way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I didn't. Many people that you every person that you saw after that did not.

SPEAKER_01

Jake, great friend of the show. I mean, how I did a little bit with his swing. I wouldn't say I did like any like massive overhaul with his swing.

SPEAKER_03

He's got a good swing, he's got a good swing. It's a great swing ding champion up to look at it.

SPEAKER_01

Swing ding champion, extraordinaire. Uh, like, but we had like we kind of continued our conversation, really, from the cabin down to down to the learning center, the teaching center. And I mean, how much better and how much more on target was he when he finally understood that white line wasn't where he was trying to get this ball to finish.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Oh, he just started striping it again.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And it's like, I think that white line has absolutely destroyed more golf swings than we can possibly imagine. And I'm sure we're gonna get some people to reach out and they're like, oh, well, you know, I'm I'm outside and I hit straight shots. I I think that is potentially true as well. But I think what people don't realize is they start shifting around where they need to aim to get that ball to land on target. So for the guy who tends to kind of you know draw it a little too much, that guy starts kind of closing up and all of a sudden starts hitting straight poles, and the ball doesn't move much in the air and lands on target. But what he fails to realize is he's closed or shifted his aim line right of the target line and is now just hitting poles.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I think outside you can get away with a little bit more because you're not in this fixed aiming situation where you're trying to hit the middle of the screen every time. But I just think that that's where amateurs really struggle because they go to the driving range and subconsciously start figuring some of this stuff out, and then they can't transfer it to the golf course. But if I go and hit balls tonight, which may happen, if I go hit balls at this public facility I go to here to hit balls, it's outside. I promise you, maybe one there. Let's say there's 20 people hitting balls when I get there. Maybe one of them has an alignment stick down. Maybe one. People don't do this, the amateurs don't do this. They do not put something down to help them align themselves. Now, if I go to a tour event, let's go to the Scottish Open and we hop in a fire up the jet and go over the pond and get to the Scottish Open. If we go out to the driving range, I'm willing to bet you 90, 90, 95% of the players have some kind of alignment stick down. They do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I think it's because the tour guys understand this aiming

Alignment Stick Practice That Transfers

SPEAKER_01

concept a lot better than our average golfer does, who's trying to curve it back to the line versus curve it away from the line, which isn't the target line, it's the aim line.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Uh you gave me a good um how to practice. And so now I was taking my alignment stick, I was putting it out in front of me, like downrange, essentially. And that was my aim line. Own this line, get this ball started over this stick, and then let's let it go to target from there. And uh, so now since every time I've hit balls, I've got that I've got that stick down, I get behind the ball, I'm lining it up with so now I use the flags on the range as as aim lines, so I can line up flag stick, alignment stick on the ground, and ball. And so now I'm hitting balls that are never going towards a uh a flagstick out in the range, just because that's my I'm using it to form a straight line. Yeah, um, but now I'm like, oh, okay, that ball finished left of that pin out there. Oh, it finished left of that pin again, left of that pin again. You know, now it's okay, I'm hitting, I'm clearly owning my target line or my aim line and and making it move left to target.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like, I mean, using Jake again, when we put the dispersion chart up for him, it's like once again, throw a picnic blanket over these shots he's hitting, and he's like, Oh, like, and it, I think that dispersion chart really kind of drives it, drives it home a bit for people. It's like, look, all these balls are in the same little area, okay. So if I can aim like this straight white line is aimed, if I aim there and understand my target's actually over here, I've got gold. Yeah, like it just makes it so much simpler for people, yeah. And it's and then it's it's whittle down that that percentage of curve. Like that's that's the game. But if we're aiming well and we get the body kind of aligned correctly relative to our aim line, it's a heck of a lot easier to get your club path to neutralize and to get the face to neutralize.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so that was where then it changed. Okay, I can get the face, I can get the face on this aim line. I can do that. Now what you're saying, now the game becomes can we move the can we tighten this path and tighten this path to where the percent of curve decreases. Um and I think that's that's now become the game for me of okay, when I'm out there with my stick down and my my target out there, if I see one move too far left, it's not a hold the face more open type of thing. It's like, okay, let's just we know we're getting the pat we know we're getting the face pretty close to this target line because it's starting over this it's starting over this uh stick I've laid down. We need to this is a path issue. My path is too far to the right. Let's just work on the path a little bit so that curve becomes less. And it's such a simpler way of problem solving rather than well, is it the face or is it the path? Well, you'll know pretty quick. Did you start it on the on the line you laid down or not?

SPEAKER_01

Unless you're really bad at golf, like really bad, like 15 handicapped plus. Unless you're really bad at golf, the more right that you swing the club head for a right-handed player, the more close the club face is gonna be. You're trying to get the ball on target. The more left you swing the golf club, the more open typically the club face is gonna be. Okay, because we're trying to get the ball on target. So the thing that's really interesting to me, and something that I do that a lot of people struggle with in the beginning when they first start working with me, is I do not show the face angle as a data point on its own. I show the face to path because I want people to understand this relationship. If I have a positive club path, I better have a negative face-to-path. If I have a negative club path, I better have a positive face-to-path. This is how it works from a geometric standpoint. So the reason I bring this up is I have always believed that the face is a reaction to the path. So, with that being said, if I swing the club to the right or I swing the club to the left, that creates a face that can be a bit strong or a bit open more than I need it to be. And then I miss the white line, the aim line, and now I'm not super happy. So I've always kind of argued that people blame the face, the club face, for absolutely everything because they assume that they're swinging the club straight. But with us now understanding that the face is a reaction to the path, people don't have club face issues. People have path issues. And the funny thing is, is like if I can get my little happy world to where people are swinging the club between negative two and positive two, okay, preferably I'd like it to be one or the other, zero to two, zero to negative two. But let's just say, for argument's sake, if they swing it between negative two and positive two, my face to path is gonna really decrease. And if my face to path decreases, I have less curvature on the golf ball, assuming I punch it out of the middle of the club. So at the end of the day, like the recipe for playing better golf isn't to learn how to be more consistent at curving the golf ball or being able to work the golf ball or anything like that. The the game to being more consistent is understanding you don't have a face issue, you have a path issue. Let's get you aimed up correctly, and now that's gonna allow for you to start making a better club path. Now, I'm not saying that potentially fixes everything for everybody, but it's at least gonna give us a baseline, and then you can take a golf lesson. We can match things up for you to where the club path is a little more neutral, and now you got your face under control. Now you like have less curvature, and now you can aim more at your target, and now you hit more shots on the green or close to the hole or whatever the case may be, and you shoot lower scores. It's just not that hard.

SPEAKER_03

Like the joke with my buddies that play a lot of golf with me is that Chuck's fade is a two-yard draw. And this made hitting the ball the opposite direction that I typically see so much simpler because I could in the past I was like, well, I better swing what I feel like is six left, because I I don't ever get the path left, and then I better have the face like wide open because my face is always pretty close to zero. But this made it so much simpler because now it was back to just okay, we'll we'll get the face on the line, get the face on the the aim line, and just rip it left, like just it just take your path all the way left. But that's all you have to do. This ball will move, this ball will go right. And um I did it the other day.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's so much simpler when you the math you were doing I couldn't figure out, so I do think this math is a bit simpler.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I pride myself on being okay with this golf math stuff, and I just could not figure out your brand of golf math.

SPEAKER_03

I know we were so far apart for an entire hour. We were so far apart.

SPEAKER_01

Um we would just say the most insulting things to one another and then laugh about it because we knew that there was clearly some kind of disconnect, and and we just couldn't figure it out. And then f I think honestly, when I brought up the hey Chuck, if the caddy points here right of the hole, where do you aim? And I really do think that that's what finally got it to click for you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, the putting probably was it. And when you explain that, explain it that way, you'd never try and pull cut a putt or push draw a putt. Um so I hope this helps somebody out there. Um I think it will,

Putting Proof And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_03

and I think it makes things a lot freer in the golf swing when you just start thinking about percent curve and where where can I now aim with that percent curve and just bring the face back to my where you started it? Where I started. Oh, that's all I gotta do is bring and and that's so much easier than manipulating everything else.

SPEAKER_01

Wherever that like wherever you put that face down when you're standing over this shot is not where you want the ball to land, period. Yeah, period, and it's funny, man. Like I told you I've reached out to some to some people, and I was like, Am I have I lost my mind? Because after that conversation with you, I was like, maybe I'm stupid. Um, so I mean, I've reached out to some people about this, and it's funny because somebody who's very famous uh in the golf space, very big, prominent tour coach. I was explaining this to him, and he's like, you know what? He goes, I I think I got that right, but he goes, I don't I don't know that I've ever actually thought about that. And he's like, Man, you should just like come out here and be an aim coach. Like, and I'm like, Good God, it it can't be that bad. But honestly, man, I I think we just get, you know, like I said, it's that that target, whatever it is, whether it's the middle of the fairway or the the flag on the green, whatever it is, man, it's like this beautiful thing we just can't look away from. And and we want to get aggressive and we want to be Yukon and hit that half quarter shot or yeah, that half court shot with three tenths of a second left. And like that's that's hero ball, man. And you don't want to have to advance through every round relying on that ball to go through that bucket. And and you've got to play with discipline. And this is what you know Tiger is famous for is he was a great iron player. Statistically, that was the strength of his game, is is the his approach play. But they always talk about how he played with discipline. And I I I don't think it was discipline, I think it was understanding how to aim to take the trouble out and to give himself the best possible chance at hitting it as close as possible to the hole to have a good look. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, I hope this I hope this people listen to this, and you may have to listen to it twice to fully understand it. I think the the putting analogy is a great way to understand it. Um this helps somebody. It helped me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, 103, baby. Yeah, yeah, helped me a lot. Yeah, so I think uh I think this is probably worthy of doing a content piece on and putting it up on YouTube and and walking people through this. So uh when things calm down for a minute, I will try to get that posted to our YouTube uh channel. If you uh are not familiar and are listening to this podcast, we have the video of this podcast also posted to our YouTube channel in addition to the content I mentioned. So you're always able to find that by going to YouTube and searching Measured Golf. The easiest way to find that. If you uh have questions about this, which I think we might get a few questions about this, you are welcome to reach out to Chuck and he will entertain you for hours talking about this. Uh, and you can reach out to him on Instagram by searching HUDlove423. If you want to reach out to me directly, you can find me on Instagram at measured golf or the force plate guy, uh, either of which I see and respond to. So if that's too much to remember, the easiest thing you can always do as well is just go to our website at measuredgolf.com. Everything's linked there. And you can also get a hold of me if you were interested in doing some online coaching or having me explain how to aim the golf ball for you. So it's been a great episode. I'm glad we got onto this topic. Uh, Chuck and I uh joked about this when we were talking about doing an episode about this, and I wasn't sure we could get through it without laughing or name calling. And I'm proud of us for getting through this and and not sounding anything like it sounded in the cabinet, the honors. So thanks so much for listening. Uh, make sure you subscribe to this podcast. That greatly helps us. And until next time, keep grinding.

Head Shot

Michael Dutro, PGA

Host