75 - Motherfication and Other Male-Adjacent Tropes

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Women are almost never just people in games. They are mothers, daughters, girlfriends, wives. We discuss how women are so often cast in male adjacent roles, why it happens and why it's bad for everyone.

Transcript

75 - Motherfication and Other Male-Adjacent Tropes_32431

Jem: I have been, I haven't had a lot of time and I haven't had a lot of energy. So I had to put Horizon New Dawn on pause because I just couldn't keep up with the energetic, like, having to click things at the right time and press all the right buttons was too much for me to handle, like, after nine o'clock at night, so So I wasn't, haven't played that as much, although I did dip back into it earlier this week and just remembered how much I like it.

So instead, I've been doing some builder games and some yeah, but like, I, I got Gosh, I knew you were going to ask me this and I should have, should have looked it up. It's a bizarro um, hospital building game. Yes, it's a two point it, yeah, two point hospital. And I got it on the... PS5 and it's the first time I've ever played a game like this on the PS5 and I, well, I have played Sims on the PS5 and I just prefer it on the PC and I'm feeling like maybe I would prefer this on the PC because I just find that it's easier to just click around the screen on a PC than with the controller on a, on the PS5 is, I'm struggling, but so far it's quite fun.

And it's just easy to sort of chill and get into and, and it doesn't require too much brain power. And then last night I ended up playing Rimworld. So Caroline would be very proud of me. So yeah, so I'm kind of, oh, and I Went and sought out very old school StarCraft and and you can actually access the second um, StarCraft 2 for free online now, so.

Took me hours and hours on my crappy internet connection, but I downloaded it. And and yeah, played through one of the first sort of challenges on that, but it was very satisfying when I logged in cause I played it years and years ago when it first came out. And when I logged into this new system, I didn't realize that it remembered who I was or anything.

I logged in and I was sort of expecting it to be all fresh and new. And it just spent the first five minutes just rolling up. Achievements I'd already done because I, because when I played the game before I'd done all of it and I was like, but I can't remember anything. So I've had to start from the beginning.

So yeah, so a bit old school this week for me. 

Matt: How about you, Alex? Well, 

Alex: I have. You'll be sad to hear, I've long since abandoned Elden Ring, much like I did Skyrim. Very much enjoyed playing it, loved it. One day, just up and left, have never touched it again. So that's going to be, it might, I might come back to it.

But I have, I have been hankering for some easier games, let's say, because Elden Ring's not exactly an easy, chewed out game to play. So I decided to have a look, to have a look and see if human fall flat at any more levels, because I just felt like having a laugh and a bit of a time messing around with my other half, because that's a great game to sort of mess around with your friends in.

And there were a couple of new levels, so we spent the weekend doing that. Laboratory is, is my new favorite level. That's, you can have lots of fun with magnets there. anD then also we decided to dive into Untitled Goose Game. I don't know if either of you have heard of it, but it's set in this tranquil English village with lovely villagers going about their day and you play a horrible goose, quote unquote, and you have to go around and just basically make their day horrible and and just mess everything up and honk and it's hilarious and good fun.

It's kind of a stealth game if you think about it hard enough because you have to sort of sneak around quite a lot. But love the music in it as well. It's kind of all classical music but reworked and it's very playful and it only plays when the goose is doing something mischievous. It kind of, it's quite fun.

I think it's made by some people in Australia, they just came up with it on Slack, I think, while they were trying to decide what to do for a new game. It was, this was a couple of years ago, I think, 2019, um, but I definitely recommend it, it to you both if you, if you found it. 

Jem: I have actually been chased by a goose in, in the real world, and that was quite terrifying.

Alex: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, we were, we are intending it to play co op online, but you can't, so you have to wait to play couch co op. Or you can play it single player, but either is hilarious, so I would recommend it. Yeah.

Matt: I say it's the, I don't know whether it's a, it's an old wives tale is that a goose can break your arm. I thought that was a swan. It's a 

Alex: swan. I've always been told it was a swan, but 

Jem: I could be wrong. Well, I think I'd have been probably given a chance. 

Alex: Yeah. 

Matt: I've what have I been playing? I have been on a nostalgia trip with old Call of Duty games.

I play, because Modern Warfare 1 and 2 have been remastered. But Modern Warfare 3 hasn't. I had to go and buy a... An old PlayStation 3 so that I could play these old games and it just, it's so much simpler when you're a teenager with just not a care in the world. So playing those, it's just absolutely epic.

 I've just restarted Advanced Warfare, which I think is probably one of the best. Kevin Spacey is an excellent actor, but he is a sex pervert. So, that doesn't stop his work being pretty good. The two things can be true. So, bad, bad Kevin Spacey. The thing I'd been playing before this was have either of you watched Attack on Titan?

The anime? I feel like I 

Alex: have, but can't remember. 

Matt: It's so epic and perfect and brilliant and it was all written and, it was a graphic novel written and illustrated by the same guy who was 25 when he did it. So I hate him for his brilliance. But swinging around fighting these massive, awesome monsters, I've spent so many hours doing, and that is what led me onto the infantilization trail that led into this episode.

So I'm going to start playing you. Some audio that is indicative of what a lot of particularly Japanese made games What their female characters sound like?

Now how old is that sound? 

Jem: Yeah, 

Matt: that's a problem that's a real problem I And just all the way through, uh, playing it and just that it's really unsettling how it's, it's it's the start of the start thing is how to describe it. You've got a character, female character, and they're ambig they're young, but ambiguously young.

You don't know if they're above the age of 18, or they're below the age of 18. But they leave that ambiguous, and they show their appearance, and they give them that kind of voice, that it just feels really... Like they're going, yeah, that's what people want. We're not allowed to do it explicitly, but we're doing it implicitly.

Is that, is that something that either of you get a sense of? 

Alex: I think it's something that I've seen in like Japanese anime and things before. Not that I've watched much anime, but I can, their voices sound very similar, definitely.

Jem: I've watched quite a bit of anime and yeah, I mean, it's, it's a pretty standard for, for that genre is the sort of the, the school girl, ambiguous school girl, you know, and, and, and even when they are definitely school, cause I've watched some where they are set in, you know, stories where they're, they're set in school or the.

The, the kids are clearly at school and even then, then, then they're just very, it's very, it's very unclear as to how old they are. And they're at once sort of sexualized and adultified and they wear very short skirts and stuff, whilst at the same time being very childlike and, you know, with these little voices and, and, you know, knee high socks.

Yeah, 

Matt: I've got a little image of this is a, this will, we'll, we'll probably show this image, I mean, image a couple of times because I thought I'd save time by making a collage of a couple of characters that are I could class in this ambiguously aged bracket. Stand by, stand by, go.

rIght. Can you all see that? Yeah. So The girl on the left is from Attack on Titan, her name is Historia, and then we've got Harley Quinn, Lara Croft, and I can't remember her name, but she is the daughter from Grand Theft Auto V, and would you guys agree that these are If I would get it. ambiguously aged looking characters?

Alex: Well, they're all reasonably young looking. As in, under 30. You can class that as young. But yeah, I mean it's difficult to tell because obviously some of them are very sort of caricatured and cartoonish as well.

Jem: I would say that,

I don't know, I would say that the Grand Theft Auto character is probably the one that looks the oldest. Definitely looks like she's in her twenties to me and then I know that Lara is so that's influencing my, my view, but the other two, I think, yeah, I mean, Harley Quinn is a, is a really um, complex character anyway, so it's, it, it's, it's always a bit difficult with her, but, but yeah, the first character, oh yeah, could be. It's really hard to tell, isn't it? 

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah, it's that grey area of sort of, no one really, I've never heard anyone talk about, um, that girlification.

Sort of like, Harley Quinn could be in her mid twenties, that she behaves like a, and talks like a child. Yeah. And that just, just the mixed messages of it is, oh, we, we want, I'm reminded of Leonardo DiCaprio's girlfriend, girlfriend history. AnY of you follow Leonardo DiCaprio's love life? There was someone like did a, did a graph of he's like 42, 43 now.

And they did like a, cause his love life's very public. He just dates a string of like beautiful women. And has he, as he's aged, he, the age of his girlfriends has just fluctuated from like 21 to 27 as he's aged. And. It got me thinking, why? Why are these, so these women and girls are made by men for men for the most part um, which means that they think that that's something that men want to see and that men find attractable and think that, wish that women would be like.

What do you think it is about making these girls so young and vulnerable and cutesy and high pitched voice. Why do you think that, why do you think that men want to see that, or they think men want to see that? I 

Alex: would say that, I guess, that they can, they can feel like they're the ones in charge and more powerful and, and just the more assertive characters within the space, I suppose.

it's about dominance and power and control. Or if you're looking at it on from that side of things, um, which is probably quite negative, but I expect generally our answers can be fairly similar, but I don't know. I 

Jem: mean, in anime, it's fan service. Just that's, it's just, you know, eye candy and, and and it's part of the genre.

It's part, it's what people expect and it's kind of part of it. In. In other games, I think it's interesting that the three of the characters, I don't know the first character but I know the other games so, so three of those characters are quite kick ass female characters and they have a power within the game of sort, of sorts, or within their worlds of sorts.

So I, I can't help but feel that by infantilizing characters that have sort of power that, that makes them less threatening to your male audience. I think that's, I think that is generally what it's down to, that it's, it's all right if, you know, that the girl can beat you up as long as she, you know, she wears a short skirt.

And has a high pitched voice while she hits. I can also get into a whole thing about how I think that we have a, a, a, quite a, a paedophilic society in the West. And, you know, but I think that's, that's very heavy and I don't want to go down that rabbit hole right now. I'm sure we might, might end up down there, but.

Matt: Yeah, it's a, it's a taboo thing. That there is a significant audience for, um, and my, yeah, my, my read of it was that children aren't a threat to men. And yeah, if you think, oh, Harley Quinn's all kick ass and cool, but she's a child and she's manipulated by the Joker to do whatever he wants. And the lack of,

the lack of. Decision they don't have the direction to go. They don't know what they want, which is what young people that's I presume why, like, the golden range of what the night powerful men gravitate towards to, like, independent of how well the man is. Less is lower than 30 because those people are less likely to have a cast idea of what they want out of life.

And so they can be controlled and manipulated and games. When they, when you have characters like that, it gives normal, the average man, young man, boy, the opportunity to to live like that, to think. Oh, yes, that's, that's, that's the way it should be. So it's, it's one of those things that just gets, it gets laughed off really quickly.

But like I say, Gem, it is, it is, it is serious and it's it's bad for everyone, really. I think we'll move on to, it's, it's easier to be a bit more, we've got the, the serious child stuff out of the way first, which I'm sure we'll, we'll go into in depth another time because it is important. I won't give you the, the, the fun word. Yes, that I've come across, that I might have created, that I might have had a hand in creating.

Mothers, Gem, you're a mother.

Jem: Honorary mother. 

Matt: Honorary mother, yes. Tin mother. Token. Mother tropes. Psycho mums seems to be a very common trope. Because in the, the first thing that springs to mind is Resident Evil Village. Yeah. Two, three psycho mums, if you include Nia. I'll do the hacky. As a mother question, as a mother gem do you, do you notice these characters stand out? 

Jem: Yeah, so I think so, actually, and I think it's, it's interesting. I think there's, oh, it's, it's just one of these cliche things, isn't it? It's sort of the whole tiger mum and you know, the, the, the, the, the, I will.

Do anything to protect my child and you know, that, that just pushes you over the edge when something happens and therefore you completely lose the plot. So I think it is true to say that what in my experience and everyone's experience of motherhood is different. You know, I, I would go to quite long, extreme lengths to protect my daughter.

But I would like to think that that was a perfectly reasonable sort of behavior. And I think what the, where the problem is in these games is that there's, there's some sort of, it's like on one hand, you want the moms to be like that. You want them to kind of commit 100 percent to their progeny. And then on the other hand, they're like psychos because, you know, look at how bonkers they get when you, you know, try and sacrifice their child.

You know, and I, and I also think And I think we, we would need to do a trigger warning for this episode, but I, I also think that, you know, there's too much sort of casual child loss that goes on in, in games that's just kind of chucked in that as a, as a cheat. An easy way to motivate someone to, to go out, to, to, to go over the edge.

And, and, you know, sadly I do know women who've lost children and they haven't turned into psycho killers and, you know, most scenarios, that is not what happens. In fact, I would. Arguably, it's probably extremely, extremely rare. And yet the, the perpetuation of that is that is, is really harmful actually for women.

Especially in a role that the patriarchy seems to think is essential. If, if what's going on in America is anything to go by, you know, that women. They only exist to have children. So, you know, and yet at the same time, you're kind of digging away at those foundations and undermining that role too. You can't even do that, right?

Alex: I was having a think about games where I've seen that happen and I've just thought of the example of Freya in God of War at the very end when, spoilers, You kill Balder, and you can see the moment where she snaps uh, as well, which is kind of going to be an arc for her for this next God of War game. But I, I'm curious to know whether you have both seen a lot of in game moments where you see the moment where the mother snaps, and what that does for the game's story, and like, what it means for the characters around, and that sort of thing.

And how... How much emphasis is placed on seeing that moment of change, um, and just the impact it has on you as the player as well. I've asked my own question there.

Jem: Can't hear you Matt. Sorry Matt. 

Matt: Thanks. Any, any extra questions are helpful to pad out the, the needy list. I, I

think you both made me think of what we talked a little bit about with Horizon Zero Dawn in about when they have story arcs about slavery and murder and bad things that should, those are objectively terrible things, but they are cheapened. They are used by people who don't, who don't have the self awareness to know when you're telling someone else's story that you have a, you have a responsibility to deliver that experience authentically.

You don't just take it. I hadn't thought, I'd never thought of um, like, the actual fact of losing a child um, and how that is grotesquely cheapened when when mothers go psycho. sO that happens three times in in the Resident Evil village. I mean, it's sort of, that's, because we've got the fun psycho, like Lady Dimitrescu, and so that's, I think that's okay.

bUt then when you see it, like, it's the main drive of the big villain, and her response to her child dying is to get another baby and cut it into pieces so that she can resurrect her original child. And that's just, that's cheap, that's cheap bollocks really, after thinking about it from that perspective, Jo.

Jem: I mean, we talked about it, didn't we, on our deep dive into, into, into Resident Evil The Village. And, and I remember when I got to that bit and I saw, and I realized what was going on. I, I, there was a definite eye roll. It was like, oh, for goodness sakes, it's, it's lazy writing as far as I can tell. It's, it's not spending time.

To, you know, come up with real motivations or, or just like, you know, this person is just a bitch, you know, I mean, they, it could just be that. I mean, I think that's the thing about Dimitri, Dimitri, I can't say her name, but anyway, she, you know, because she is, she's a psycho, she's just bonkers and that's great, you know, and I think, I think it's, you know, we.

I don't want to get too kind of prescriptive and too protective, you know, computer games are a good opportunity, just like video, like TV and movies and books to explore some of the more uncomfortable aspects of art. of our world. And I think that's great. I think where, where I have real problem with it is where it's just so it's, it's tropey, it's repetitive.

It's just the thing that they reach for. Oh, we need a reason why this person is. cutting up this baby and we've used the baby because, you know, we've used the baby because we needed a motivation for why this man is going into this situation, you know, because he's got to protect his women folk, you know, I mean, the whole thing in, I mean, the, the village is a really good actual example of this, this.

The, the, the abuse of this, these storylines, it's not that we shouldn't ever tell these stories, but that, that we, it's so lazy. It's just, and it's too repetitive and it's too common. Sorry, ranty. No, no, 

Matt: I agree. I agree completely. And off what you said, Alex, about Freya in God of War. That is how that story, it's so nuanced and so specific, and throughout the entire game, they 

Alex: They've sort of fed breadcrumbs

about It wasn't like just a... Suddenly it happens at the beginning and then now she's angry. I mean, it's going to happen at the beginning of God of War 2 because you should already know why she was angry. But um, yeah, it was quite a stark moment. But obviously, I don't know whether it actually happens in the mythology, Norse mythology, where the boulder dies and then Freyja goes off on one.

Don't know. Have to read up on that. But 

Matt: yeah. It was Loki that caused Baldur's death. Oh, okay. It was a trick. It was like Baldur, I think it was, it was at a feast and Baldur was challenging people to do things to try and hurt him. And Loki gave one of the One of the guests, a spear made of mistletoe.

Ah. And, through it. Yes. And, that's 

Alex: where the arrows come from. 

Matt: Yeah. I think. And another, I think this was about Balder as well, that Frey I think Odin said that if every living creature shed a tear for Balder, that he would resurrect him. buT Loki was the only one who didn't shed a tear.

Jem: Wow. He's naughty. He is.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. And that, every single detail that you learn and how you learn it in that game is just, you really feel inside Freya as it, that moment, just that point of no return where Bolt, where Kratos snaps his neck and his eye fills with blood to show that he's actually hurt. Yeah. And then... She goes down next to him and does this terrifying little speech to Kratos and Atreus saying I will rain down all the horrors of hell on you.

And you just feel, you feel that she is... She's forever changed. She's just, something has snapped there. Yeah. And particularly with anything to do with gods, they're all about family. Oh yeah. And it's, Kratos is just as broken, but in a different way. But I thought the scare, the, the moment it really sat in for me with Freya was when Kratos has just finished talking to Atreus um, just after, and then Freya is carrying Boulder and walks past and then just looks at them and her eyes are just, she's completely Yep.

Completely fucked. Completely gone. I thought, oh my god. Oh my god, that's terrifying. 

Alex: Yep. Yeah. 

Matt: And like I say, Gem, it's okay to just go, oh, she's just a bitch. She's behaving that way 'cause she's an asshole. Yeah. . Some people are just assholes. 

Alex: Ms. Ashley, she's a abroad, so, and they're not, not very nice usually, are they?

Matt: But yeah, they're capricious. They can't be held to the same standards as us because they are, they are not. They're not Ben. They they are they're gots. Any of you watch Star Trek? The next generation? Yes. I remember the episode with there's like this completely barren planet and there's this little perfect house sat there with a an old man and his wife there.

And they find out that the man is a God creature who killed an entire race with a thought. Oh, 

Alex: that's such a, I can't remember that specific episode, but I'm sure it will come back to me. 

Matt: I remember thinking that was, that was. devastating, but also perfectly handled. Because Picard says, we don't have, we don't have the authority to judge you for your crimes.

They're saying, just knowing you've done something terrible, but we, we, we don't, we don't have the capacity to judge you for this. And again, that's where you can bring in richness and depth and dynamic storytelling, or you can just say, ah, baby died, now she's mad. We'll move on to another. Another trope of this might, I haven't told you the fun words yet.

Making someone a mother figure is called Mother Ation. Mother 

Alex: fication. That works. Yeah.

That sounds like a Red Hot Chili Peppers title.

Matt: So that's, that's, that's, that's the, that's the pinnacle of the session. The wife, the wife, and. The girlfriend and the, I want to think there's like the, the romantic attachment, the romantic adjacent female character. Yes. Love interest. Do you think that whether a character is portrayed as a wife, a girlfriend, or just a bit of rough, whether those are, what do they? What are they meant to say about the male character, do you think? 

Alex: I suppose it's in a way that they're like, because these characters are gravitating around the male character, it's almost like they're being idolized by the world that they're in, or the characters around them are.

They're basically the center of the world that you're playing in, because everything's revolving around them and everything's sort of... Yeah, just basically happening, all the characters are impacted by the main character, because they are the main character. There's a clue in the, in the title there, but yeah, I think that's, it's just kind of backing up the idea that the character you're playing is also desirable and, and Is going to get the happy ending probably, and going to get the partner or the love interest and it'll all get sorted out and be super duper because that's what happens.

I think there's 

Jem: I Think that depending on whether it's a wife. A girlfriend, or a, what did you say, 

Matt: A bit of rough, yeah.

Jem: Has quite an impact on how we view the male character. So if he's married, then you know, we know, we can, we can. Be reasonably, usually if he's the main character can be confident that he's, he's reliable and reasonable and a family man and, you know, it ties all these things. Whereas depending on his age, you know, if he's got a girlfriend, then, you know, maybe he's a bit more carefree and a bit more, you know, that he's not settled down yet.

So he could be lured off by another female character, you know, and I think obviously the, you know, if, if he's got this sort of, you know, just, Casual relationship going on, then, then that, that tells us that, you know, he's, he's a player, he's a bit of a lad, you know, I mean, there's this, there's a lot of characterization that's built up by these, by these female characters that has absolutely nothing to do with them.

And I think that's, you know, they're just props in that scenario to. To prop up the character, the main character. And again, it's not all bad cause short, you know, like these kind of tropes and, and stereotyping and all of these things are shorthand, aren't they, for, you know, telling a story quickly, like we get a quick idea of who these people are from, from those kinds of things, just like we do from the way that somebody dresses or, or yeah, I was going to say like accents, but I think, you know, that's really.

Inappropriate, actually. But so, you know, we can get an idea of somebody through this shorthand and that's valuable and important because we don't want to spend hours in our games having to read backstory. But, you know, again, it's just, it would be okay if it was balanced out more. And, you know, if we had more female protagonists, then, you know, maybe we'd be talking about boyfriends, husbands and bits of rough.

Yeah. 

Matt: It's a gender neutral term, which is why, exactly why I used it. 

Alex: That's so interesting. I don't think I've played a game that's featured a side character that is a husband or boyfriend that I can think of. I don't know. It's always been a girlfriend or a wife, which is interesting, but then again, sorry Matt, you go.

Matt: That is a, such a good a good observation because if Lara Croft was married, how would the men, how would the men playing it think, I could have her if this was, if this was real, she's available and I could have her. 

Jem: That's part of it. And also, it would be a bad, setting a bad example, wouldn't it? If she, if, if, if you have these like women who are married or have partners or families and they're running off around the world having adventures, you can't do that.

You know, that's not appropriate. I have to get home in the kitchen. I mean, it's really interesting actually. I wrote, I wrote a, um, about the symbolic annihilation of women, which was a, a concept that was sort of. Put forwards in the seventies and it was looking at TV then and TV shows and how women, even though in society, women were working, they were, you know, looking after the family, but also going out to work, they were doing much more more equal jobs with, with their male counterparts.

And actually in, within reality, women, women's. They were, they weren't equal, but it was much more equal than it had been. The TV shows continue to portray women in roles where they were mothers or they were, you know staying in the home and all of those things and the women who were not. Maintaining those classic gender roles were then demonized within, within the TV show.

So, you know, like, Oh, look at that woman who goes out to work, abandoning her children, or, you know, this woman who's got this, you know, who's left her husband, she's, she's just. you know, a woman of disrepute and, you know, there was all this, which was trying to reinforce, which wasn't reflecting what was going on in society.

And I think we're seeing the same, the same thing happening in games that it's a, it, even though that's not actually how women actually are, it's not how relationships actually are. And I think you've alluded to it a couple of times today, Matt, it's not how, it's not actually what men want. Well, real men in the real world.

actually won. That isn't that, but they're being constantly told that it should be. By, by this massively influential industry.

Matt: It makes me think about how media is the media is one of the tools that the patriarchy uses to condition us to, cause like, it's only gaming my entire life being a feminist for the last six years. I've never. Thought of that, um, you never see female characters with a boyfriend or husband and how, although they could be badass, but it means that only if they're in their early twenties and skinny and white and beautiful.

But everyone, everything else from that is wives, mothers, girlfriends, daughters, and how that's, you know, go, that's, that's what reality, this is, this is reflecting reality. And if you're not conforming to this reality, then there's probably something wrong with you.

Yeah, and you talk about, and I hadn't, I hadn't thought of the idea of as a prop as a prop is literally something that you, it's something that could be in the background. There's also something that shows. Something up and supports it. Mm-Hmm. and I, I hadn't thought of that until you said that, 

Alex: to be fair, we also haven't, I know we've touched on another episode, but there's also like l GT Q characters to consider as well.

And I know obviously the last verse done lots of things to push that in the right direction which was great to see. But again, it's incredibly rare, which is why it stands out. So. sO that's worth, worth pointing out as well how, how, how rare it is to find that as a main playable character in a game.

Matt: I think that comes to another point about how it's, it's made to be a power trip for the men who play it. All the, all the women are beautiful and available and the sort of and have no purpose other than to be a prop for you. And so you don't have to, you don't have to worry about actually interacting with with real people.

And, oh, I had such a good point lined up, but it's 

Alex: it'll come back, 

Matt: it'll come back. Again, talking about how women are cheap and given a cheap deal, because do you find that when

Is it something that you've just, you've just completely used to now and don't really think about it? Or do you see women in games regularly where you go, that just makes us look bad? Or that's so pathetic and lazy that they've written a woman like this? 

Alex: I hated the character of Sam from the first rebooted Tomb Raider in 2013.

Because you just had to go and save her all the time, and she just moaned about everything all the time. Although admittedly, it's probably how I would behave if I was stuck on an island in the middle of the Japanese Sea or wherever it was. I literally wouldn't have the first clue about how to survive or how to fire a gun.

So I'd probably be very much like Sam, but I found having her as a character and someone that Lara had to look out for and rescue all the time was incredibly annoying. But I don't know if that was just me, but that's the first thing that popped into my head when you said

Jem: that. I do find it, I find it annoying all the time. I don't, I think this is, I think this is the the misapprehension that so many of us are under on many, many areas is that because something is happening all the time, because it's endemic, that, that we don't, that it doesn't affect. whoever is impacted by it.

So, you know, like, because racism is, you know, just built into our society doesn't mean that when people are the victims of racism, that they don't feel it every single time, that they don't notice it every single time. And I think the same is, is true for sexism. So when I am playing a game, yeah, absolutely.

I will be just like, Oh my God, why, why did they have to do that? Why did they have to make that skirt so short or that shot up? up, you know, up, up a skirt or why did they, you know, zoom in on her chest? There's so many moments. And for me, it's really jarring and it takes me right, it, it, it really impacts the game.

And I, I think I'm, I'm more sensitive to it because of what we do here and because of my politics and my beliefs, but, but I don't, I do actually think that most people. Who are the target of that are seeing that and even when I'm not reacting to it with my feminist hat on in that way, then it's still having negative impact on my, you know, body image or my self esteem and all of those things like, you know, oh, well, you know, I'm 45.

So I might as well just. Give up now and just like lock myself into the house and never do anything, never go anywhere because I basically don't exist as far as the world is concerned and certainly shouldn't be gaming, you know, no games are designed for me, you know, and all of that. And it's really easy to sort of go down that route.

So I, I think that just because something is. So pervasive. I, I do think, I mean, Matt, I think, you know, absolutely I feel it. I see it every time and it, and it's, it's damaging and it's harmful. And then I'll be sat there and my daughter's watching with me and I'm like, oh my gosh. You know, I mean, she got really into little witch academia um, which is a anime.

School for witches and it's cute. It's cute, but the skirts are so short and and there's, there's that whole anime little girl thing going on and it's, it's awkward. And the same with Oh, I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, there's a, a big, a big online game that you can play that's... Not Genshin Impact.

Yeah, Genshin Impact. Same problem there. Absolutely. I love the outfits. I think they're cool. But, you know, my daughter was like, well, it's all right, because they're wearing their... They've got their socks come up to their thighs. I'm like, you 

Alex: know... No. 

Matt: I've always got skirt, skirt, thigh, sock. Yeah. And you're right, it is about, like, just like with Leonardo DiCaprio's Girlfriends, as far as if you only looked at media and games, you'd see that range of people.

Unless, I can't unsee this sort of thing now in films where they've got like a, a Mums in films now, the maximum they go up to is 38, the age of the actress. And so as the younger actors get older, suddenly in, in Dune, which is a worthless pile of shit. Rebecca Ferguson is the mum of Timothee Chalamet, who's the skinniest, whitest, whitest person they could ever send to a desert planet.

He's 26 and she's 38, so she would have been 12 when he was born. 

Jem: Yeah, and that is so pervasive and people keep saying about it and they still don't do anything about it, even after Me Too and, you know, all of the sort of general pushback. And, you know, it's so rare to see genuinely older women playing older female characters in cool films, you know, they normally get relegated to some, you know, you know, Serious dramas and things.

Matt: And when women are completely, like, interchangeable, they go, Oh, we just, we've got to have a woman there. If we're going to have a woman, and it doesn't matter, we may as well have a sexy, young, skinny, white, blonde. 21 year old girl. Who cares? I've got a mum. We'll get a we'll get an attractive 34 year old to come and play this 23 year old mum.

Jem: Do you not think that that's, I mean, do you think that's the, the sort of, come, brings us far right? Full circle back to the infantilization of women, so that you've got this infantilization which is pushed and pushed and pushed. Meanwhile, you're, you're hiding the, the older women, yeah, and hiding age. And I mean, I was looking, I'm not, I'm not going to sort of like, you know.

Put her down, but I was looking at some pictures of Madonna recently, and she's, she's 63, I think now, and she looks like she's 20. She looks like she's 20. And it, and I'm good on her. I, you know, if that's what she wants to do, then I'm not, you know, that's her bag. She's an amazing woman and she's done amazing, extraordinary things for women and in a, in a very male dominated world.

So I have a lot of respect for her, but it is interesting that she feels the need or that she feels the desire to do 

Alex: that, because I think. It's certainly very popular in celebrity culture, or at least people who feel like they're in the public eye a lot of the time, is to hide their age. Even the men do.

You see when they start wearing those little neck scarves and things, because they're hiding their necks, you know, that's when it's got to the age. And you can always tell from, if you look at someone's neck, and then look at their face, and there's a complete difference. And there's obviously been some work done.

But yeah, it's interesting to think about. If they weren't in the public eye and they weren't, obviously, they'd need money to access that kind of plastic surgery. But if they weren't in those jobs, would they be doing that really? Or would they be aging naturally? 

Matt: My mum asked, we were talking about conservative politics this morning with my mum talking about the difference between someone like Boris Johnson and someone like Theresa May, thinking that Boris Johnson could do, there's absolutely no bottom to what he'll do and get away with without feeling any shame, because there's nothing to, there's no, Downside to him.

He won't be touched by anything. If he, when he's eventually out of office, hopefully he'll just go on going, oh, I have a, a lic in good laugh and go off and make loads of money for the rest of his life and not think about it. Whereas someone like Theresa May, women don't have that complete world is your oyster thing because they always have to be presented themselves 

Alex: a certain way.

They have to be accountable. They're being held accountable much more. 

Jem: I think Theresa May is quite an interesting character actually because I mean, I don't agree with her politics at all and I know, I know she's responsible for quite a lot of bad stuff in inverted commas. But, you know, she has, she has not gone into hiding. She's, she's stood up and tried to hold Forrest's account on a number of times in, in the House of Commons. And, and, and I think that has, is brave because I think, you know, many, I mean, you never see David Cameron doing anything, you know, apart 

Matt: from volunteering at a fucking food bank.

What the fuck? He was prime minister and then he goes, I've been working in a food bank for two years. Blew my mind that, that, 

Alex: ah, 

Matt: ah. 

Jem: Anyway, we're veering off topics now. We have. Yeah, 

Matt: it's good. I think it's 

Alex: good too. Because it just shows how much everything all intersects. Doesn't it, you know, how it all

meshes together. I find 

Matt: it interesting. Well, that's actually a really, I think that's a really good point to bring this to a close with the first wild card round that we've done in quite a while. So I've been really irritated the last week. I get very, very pissed off at things. And I thought... We hadn't noticed that.

Tate, think of someone who you're angry with in life at the minute. Who you're just makes you go, I'm just think about you go, oh, and give them a fate, a terrible fate from a video game that you would like to inflict. Oh no. So I'll start. Tony Blair. Fuckin war criminal, corrupt scumbag Tony Blair, who I didn't know, the second he got out of office, instantly went and became, and worked like a director of some court with JPMorgan Chase, which I believe is a massive bank, because he was extremely good to them.

And he's been raking in one to two million a year doing that, and he's got about 40 billion pounds to his name, and he still comes and sticks his nose in to say, we don't need any socialism. We need to go back to centrism and doing and doing business. business friendly stuff and forget about, forget about everything else.

And I just want to, can't you just take your money and just go away? If I had 40 million pounds, you'd never hear from me again. I could spend a million pounds a year for the next 40 years. And just, just wonderful, but instead of him carrying on doing that, I thought what would be a really nice in God of War three, I think one of the, one of the deaths is uh, I'll, I'll amalgamate them together.

So with Poseidon, he gouges his eyes out and throws him over a cliff and with Herbes, he cuts his legs off and then, and I think, yeah, that kills him. And then Hercules, he smashes his face in with a, with a massive, massive, like, iron gauntlet.

So that's, that's my answer. Who wants to go next? 

Alex: I could go next if you like. Well, this is very heavily influenced by the tennis match that I've just seen. But it's tennis player Alexander Sweriv, who you may or may not know, uh, has allegedly... Assaulted his ex girlfriend and is apparently under investigation, 

from, by the ATP, but I don't think they've done much about it. And his girlfriend won't press charges because apparently she doesn't want to do that, even though I think she probably should based on the evidence that's been reported. And also he has terrible anger management issues. And he's actually a danger to people on court when he gets too angry.

He nearly hit an umpire with a racket once, and they haven't really done anything to, to curb that in terms of the behavior that he's been allowed to carry on, sort of, getting away with, and just, normalizing, essentially, they're normalizing angry, violent behavior on a public tennis court by a player who's supposed to be in the top 10 in the world and should be setting a better example, really, especially when they're allegedly an assault, an assaulter.

So I think, probably, if I was to put him in a video game, I'd put him in that little corridor in Tomb Raider 2, where the boulder's rolling down after you, and you have to run to the other end, and then there's spikes closing in on the walls, and you have to escape in time, basically. But he'd always be a little bit slow, and never make it

out, and also he beat the player that I wanted to win today. So that's the reason. Which I don't know if it's the first time. But, yeah. How about you, Gem? I have quite a long list. Actually so

Jem: I'm just going to group them all together and say that, you know, I'm thinking of people like Boris Johnson and Putin and and I make no apologies to put those two names in the same sentence. And generally, arrogant men who think that their, what they want, and it is just what they want, it's not even a, a, a genuine kind of belief.

life belief or anything is just what they want is more important than the lives and well being of the people who they are supposed to be caring for and I am sick to death of these men abusing their power, and it is abusive. It's, it, it's, it's controlling, it's abusive, it's gaslighting, it, you know, everything about it is just horrible, and it makes me so angry because I feel that, you know, how can we...

deal with male violence, which is, you know, catastrophic in our world. When the people in power, the people who are living in massive great palaces and sending people to their deaths on their behalves and, you know, who are making decisions about whether These people get the money or those people get the money, you know, all these people, how can we protect somebody in their home from their abusive partner when, you know, or young women out on the streets, you know, when we, when, when these are the people who are running the world and these are the people who are, you know, making the decisions and getting away with it and, you know, it's, It's horrifying to hear that Trump may well run for the next U S election and may well win, you know, because, you know, these are the people who are extremely problematic in our society.

So I would like to put them into the house with lady to me, Demetrius skew. And leave her to her and her. daughters to deal with one way or another. And I think, you know, that would be a fitting, a fitting situation for them 

Alex: to 

Jem: think about their sins. I mean, 

Alex: I put them

Matt: inside, lock the doors, don't give them any weapons. No. Let's see how, oh, what a TV show that would be. 

Jem: And definitely no save points. 

Matt: No save rooms. 

Alex: The corrupted save. Yeah.

Matt: Oh. I'm glad we did that, because I think, collectively, there's so much to be angry about, and particularly, I, I, men are supposed to be angry, men are allowed to be angry, but I don't think women are just supposed to go, this is awful, this is awful, and no one's doing anything about it. It makes, it makes me feel insane that everyone, everyone isn't already eating the rich.

With that, I think we'll bring that to a close. Thank you very much everyone for watching or listening. You can like, share, and subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or, uh, Twitch. Or perhaps Twitter or Facebook. And if you're listening on Spotify or Apple podcasts in particular, please do give us a five star rating and a little comment to help get into the eyes and ears of as many feminist gamers as possible, uh, we'll see you every Thursday at 7 PM as usual.

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