Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

220 - GTS March News roundup - Part 2 - What do gamers want? Thick thighs but not Wonder Woman!

• Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

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In this episode, Alex, Jem, and Matt get stuck into more of March’s gaming headlines, with their signature intersectional feminist lens. From thick-thighed anime girls to cancelled superhero titles, the team digs into what’s driving trends—and who’s really benefitting.

Highlights:

  1. Economic Recession = Thicker Thighs?
    A Japanese game producer claims that plumper character designs are recession-driven. The team tears apart this bizarre argument, calling out the continued objectification of women in anime and gaming.
  2. Who Are Gamers, Really?
    Jem shares new research from MIDEA on why people play games. The group unpacks escapism, challenge, and social play—and highlights the lack of nuance in how gamer motivations are measured and marketed.
  3. Wonder Woman and the Fall of Monolith
    Matt reports the sad news of Monolith Productions' closure and the cancellation of its Wonder Woman game. The team reflects on the ongoing collapse of creativity in AAA studios, where chasing profit often comes at the expense of people.

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Alex:

Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. Today, I'm your host, Alex, and I'm joined by my friends, Gem and Matt. Before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon. com forward slash gaming the system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one off donation via PayPal to our email address wearegamingthesystematgmail. com I've got one that I'd like to read the headline of for you and I'd like to see your reactions because I think it's a wonderful, slightly insane headline. This comes from PC Gamer and it was published yesterday and it reads thus. Japanese game producer argues that thick thighs on anime girls are a natural by product of economic recession.

Matt:

Big thighs are good for morale i

Alex:

Yeah.

Matt:

that's what he's trying to say

Alex:

Would you like to know more? i will read on, so, Yeah. Atelier, I think it's pronounced a Japanese RPG series is, as you might expect, filled with conventionally attractive anime people. I like the way this article is written, so I'm probably gonna quote it verbatim So thank you, Harvey, for writing such an amusing article. An upcoming entrant in the series, Atelier Yumiya, the alchemist of memories and the envisioned land, is no exception, and it has big shoes to fill. The game's past protagonist, Risa, made waves amongst its fanbase due to having body fat on her legs. How daring, says the article. Speaking about these incredible past achievements in anime girl technology, brackets my tongue is wedged in my cheek. Producer Yunzo Hosoi tells 4gamer, translated via automaton, that Risa took off with her fans because of the economy. No, really. This is just my perception, he says, but I think that the economy has an influence on what kind of designs become popular. There are certain types of characters that are needed in times of recession. And there are types of characters, that are embraced only when the economy is booming. He then goes on to note that trends like a plump figure are more common during a recession. Do you like larger women when you're poor enough? I feel like we should get a chart going size of women compared to income going up and down, just like what's going on here. It's very strange. But,

Matt:

that's the thing that 99 percent of men, I believe, is true, is that even with all the hatred and anger and contempt that men can feel for women, there isn't maybe, there's 1 percent of women that these men would, if offered, would not sleep with. There isn't, there is no more. So that's the, shit, what's the word? Hippocracy and madness of it all is, so obviously this is a very strange take on it, but the truth is that people who are attracted to women are just attracted to women. That's just the nature of things, so the economy has nothing to do with it.

Alex:

they said that they did some googling and found that some studies have found that hungrier men prefer more filled out mature figures. So, I don't know what research that was. And that also, it was a drum banged by the fashion industry circa 2005. So, yeah, not sure on those two.

Matt:

I was just going to say, I looked, I found the article that, and the woman's face looks,

Alex:

Yeah, I don't think it looks especially large to me.

Matt:

how old would you say she

Alex:

early twenties, maybe,

Matt:

She looks like 12 to

Alex:

teens, probably. Maybe even younger, I

Matt:

I'd say super young, so, Thick thighs hurt no one!

Jem:

is definitely a link between fashions and wealth and what we view as being an example of wealth. In recent years, it's been all about being slim has been a sign of wealth. You are healthy, but you are slim. In time's gone by. A sign of wealth was to be heavier because, you had so much food you could, gain weight. So it's, it's not entirely insane, but it is probably

Matt:

Mad.

Jem:

insane it's just, it's clearly ridiculous because as none of those images were large people. We're just talking about curvaceous girls, and we know that Curvaceous Girls is a popular thing within the anime side of things. It's like they, they're either cvac women or they're. Androgynous children and equally sexualized. I think it's just trying to use

Alex:

yeah.

Jem:

to justify preference.

Matt:

It's always funny when someone shows their hand in Sort of reveals their hand in Because everyone has their proclivities, but, so you can keep them to yourself too. Let's just, we know if you make characters with massive thick thighs that are twice the size of their heads, you can infer that person likes thick thighs and that's fine. But then when someone comes out with going, it's not because, it's not because. of me and my proclivities. It's because of the market. It's the market that demands. It's the free market of ideas that has demanded this from me. It's just and it said Translated by Automaton, I assume that means

Alex:

yes. Yeah. So, who knows how accurate that article is.

Matt:

It's very hard to imagine how, what else he could possibly mean.

Alex:

Do you have any other news stories you'd like to share?

Jem:

I have an article about some research that has been carried out by an organization called MIDEA Research and that stands for Make Informed

Alex:

hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jem:

Um, they've been looking at why gamers play games, and I think that's something that we've been discussing. So, what they've found is probably no surprise to us, but I thought I'd just share some of these. statistics with you so that we can maybe discuss them a little bit. So they found that the vast majority of people 53 percent said that they play for relaxation and escapism. Now I think it's important to say that they just asked them, why do you game? I found this article looking at the gamer news on Reddit. And a lot of people were saying that they didn't game for escapism, they just gamed because it's fun and it's a way to chill out. So I think, there is, there could be an argument that not everyone understands what's meant by escapism. But anyway, 53 percent of people said that they, they for relaxation and escapism. 47 percent were then fragmented across a whole bunch of other distinct motivations. The escapist, spend most of their time Um, and they play about 8. 3 hours weekly, which I don't know how that fits in with the figures we were looking at

Alex:

I say that's round about the average, wasn't it? Yeah.

Jem:

feels yeah and then you have challenges. And they, there was, they made up 14 percent of gamers and they like testing their skills and getting their brain ticking. They like to be getting rewards and they also go out for the recognition. And they spend about nine hours a week and and they also like social media more than other gamers apparently. So then we have the builders. they make up 10 percent of gamers. Now, I have to say that I've just recently started playing Valheim, and it's the first game that Daniel and I have played together for years that we are completely loving and addicted to at the moment, and that is all about building. It's a survival game, so there's quite a lot of dying, of dying, mostly dying but it is also about building. Builders play games to satisfy their creativity, and they get motivation similar to the other sections they're like an all rounder. and that's one of the things that I think is great about Valheim is that you can go and fight things, or you can build a house, or you can fish, you can hunt. Then you've got the competitors. That makes up 10 percent of gamers. They obviously like to fight with the other players. They like everything to be skill based. And they spend almost 10 hours a week gaming. Then you have the socialites. Which makes up 8 percent of gamers. They spend a lot of time hanging out with people in non digital environments as well as a non digital entertainment as well as gaming entertainment. So they have a sort of work hard, play hard attitude to gaming. So they're spending time socially out at the pub, and then they go home and spend another 8 hours saving overnight, by the sounds of it. There's just a whole thing about the habits of gamers and the age groups and who plays what and who does what. And I just thought it was really interesting for us given that we were talking recently about who games and why we game and why we feel guilty about it or don't feel guilty about it. I think it's really good. that they're doing research here. They actually have a quote here from a 59 year old UK based female. Talking about playing

Alex:

Oh.

Jem:

as a way to escape their reality. But I'm pretty sure that there are. better games to play to escape your reality than Candy Crush. But I know a huge amount of people do play Candy Crush and we're, not about elitism here. We're about the acknowledgement that all gaming is equal and all gaming is good. Except when it's not.

Matt:

I'm always very skeptical of these kinds of Articles and studies because you need to go it sounds so much like they were given a multiple choice Like,

Jem:

Yes.

Matt:

to do. You go, what type of gaming most most describes you? Tick two boxes at most. And, you just, you need to know what the sample size is. And you go we've spoken to five people. And that's where they get this the dentist thing. One in three in ten dentists agree. And those three are the ones that work here. So,

Jem:

You can go and look at the original research, but it's behind a not a paywall, but behind a registration wall. And I was tempted to go and look at it because I do love a bit of research. They've got quotes here from people all over the world though,. But yes, I suspect from the information that we've got here that's exactly what they did. They just said, which of these categories would you say you fell into? And as you say Matt, that's not nuanced enough. To really get a lot of information because we enjoy different things at different times, I think, and, it's some, of us might be social gamers with our friends and hardcore,

Matt:

It just,

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

like the tone of it sounds like it was done by

Alex:

Yeah, I know what you mean, yeah. It's as if they're looking into the gaming world and saying these are all the different types of games. It is interesting to read about, even if it is probably not actually based on anything substantial. It's just interesting to see it, that it's been given the green light and that people are interested in gaming even if they're not necessarily proper gamers themselves because it shows how much of an impact gaming is having on us as a society as well.

Jem:

Yeah, usually marketing agencies that do these kind of research because they're looking at ways to encourage clients to

Alex:

Mm,

Jem:

Their gaming through them or which audiences do we want to advertise around and things like that because obviously it's quite useful if you know that 54 percent of gamers are escapists, then then you might market different products around gaming articles and things like that. It's, usually from those perspectives and it would be nice, as you say. Both of you, to see some of this research done by people who actually understand gaming

Matt:

It feels like they're looking in the wrong direction, because If 000 people, and That's a decent sample size, but the best sample sizes are the statistics and the sales and the current player counts because you could talk to 5, 000 people and not speak to any one of the 1 million people that are playing Counter Strike 2 at the moment and people playing Dota and Monster Hunter, and PUBG Battlegrounds, and stuff like Fortnite, and Roblox, and Minecraft. These are all things that, even though I've been gaming for pretty much my entire life, are absolutely alien to me. Those are the places that I'd be more interested to find out.

Alex:

Yeah.

Matt:

reasonings behind it.'cause I'd like to, I'd like them to speak to Counterstrike Dota, all these people. Go and speak to a large number of them and find out why they play this particular game.'cause they play these kinds of games in a way that I've never played any kind of game. And that's where the mysteries are. To me, that's what I'd be interested in.

Alex:

It's a thought provoking point, that. Yeah, I'd not thought about it from that perspective, but it makes a lot of sense. Definitely. Yeah.

Matt:

And I don't, and it baffles me how successful these things are. I do one more?

Alex:

Yeah, go for it, Matt.

Matt:

Yeah, I've got one. They're both quite depressing, but I'll go with the less depressing one. Which is saying something. I'll describe to you what it is. For the last seven years, eight years, it turns out, there was a Wonder Woman game in production. And it was made by Monolith Studios. Monolith Studios, the developers that made

Alex:

Yes, I was trying to think where I'd heard it before, because I know that I've played one of their game, or two of them actually, which is a Shadow of War and Shadow of Mordor. Yeah, that's really sad.

Matt:

And they're the ones

Alex:

But obviously they're not going to make it, are they? Or are they? Oh, no.

Matt:

So, Shadow of War came out in 2017. I didn't realise it had been that long. And Clearly they've been working on this Wonder Woman game. Not only has the game been cancelled, the Bros games made a statement saying, We have had to make some very difficult decisions to structure our development studios and investments around building the best games possible with our key franchises. After careful consideration, we are closing three of our development studios. Player First Games, Warner Bros. Games Design San Diego, and Monolith Productions.

Alex:

that is sad. So frustrating.

Matt:

Not only are they cancelling

Alex:

sad, yeah.

Matt:

what could have been an excellent game, but they have obviously been doing the same thing that they tried with Suicide Squad and Dragon Age Valgard, going, we want our next live to turn these single player action experiences into multiplayer. Looter Shooters. And they're going, okay, yeah, we're gonna stop this. And because Warner Brothers owns the Nemesis system, we're not going to see it in anything else ever. And yeah yeah, it's fucked. And, there's another, all this bullshit. corporate speak of a tough decision, recognize their storied history, admire the passion of the teams. We remain focused on and excited about getting back to producing high quality games for our passionate fans. Developed by our world class studios in getting our games business back to profitability and

Alex:

Yeah. That is depressing, sorry. It is, it's a sign of Something that has been trending across the industry for quite a while now is so many studios having to make cuts and closing down because they're not making enough money, even if they, perform relatively well. If they don't hit a certain amount for the company stakeholders and such it's considered a waste. Of resources and a waste of money and there, there are cuts that are happening all, all over, everywhere. And it's not confined to one country either, it's worldwide. So it's a sad trend which is happening and you wonder if it's going to, like we touched on earlier in the episode, whether it will mark a change in gaming habits. Are we going to vote with our fingers and play games that are perhaps developed by more independent developers because, they probably need the support and aren't gonna get cut by large overbearing companies who amalgamate everything. But yeah, it's a tricky one.

Matt:

Yeah, I think that In the past it made sense to, you'd be an indie studio, and then you'd want to be acquired by a massive corporation, because then you'd get all the support structures that they have and can allow you to make more games. But now that the people and the executives in these companies have pivoted entirely away from developing, thinking about how do we develop games, it's how do we maximize the profit.

Jem:

I like to

Matt:

that's their only focus now. So being acquired by a massive corporation is something that I guarantee most indie studios will never. Take a chance

Alex:

something to dread, yeah,

Matt:

again because

Jem:

that

Matt:

they can they take your property and then they can cut you when Their decisions leads to terrible games like Suicide Squad that cost them two hundred million dollars And that's the executives fault from saying no we want you to make a live service game because we want that fortnight money the skin money the loot box money and So they massively hamstring the developers, then it's inevitably a terrible product, and then they shut down the That's the life cycle of AAA games at the moment.

Jem:

It seems a bit strange, doesn't it, that at a time when games are becoming more and more popular and more and more accessible And accessed, that the industry is struggling, as you say Alex, internationally. I think that probably one of the answers to that is that, as we said a few episodes ago, 19, 000 games were released on Steam last year, and so obviously it's a very saturated market. And Given that games are so expensive, people may not be buying more than two or three of the big games a

Alex:

yeah,

Jem:

and maybe there just isn't enough money to go around, but still find that hard to believe, so I'm very much inclined to agree with you, Matt, that this is more about how much money can we pocket, rather than it is impossible for us to continue to run this industry or this company. I will say, however, that when I was working at EA, very briefly, they were at that point going around and acquiring Studios and small businesses and they were known for their ruthlessness. If EA acquired you, you would probably be Stripped. And all of the staff would either be made redundant or they would be, goodness. into the company in some way, shape and form. And they were very. challenging in that respect. So I don't think it's a new thing. I think that have been doing this for a long time, but I think it is perhaps more cutthroat now

Alex:

I wonder how much it's been impacted by the surge in popularity that gaming has had during the pandemic and now that it's. Over. It's not over. But, now that the lockdowns are over, everyone's where's the money? The money's gone. Because less people are gaming now. They don't have the same amount of time. And I wonder if it's a reflection of that, that it just feels much more heightened for the people looking for profits because they're comparing it to COVID times. I don't know.

Matt:

There is, I can end on some positive, a positive aspect on it. Is that the Thank God for Epic Games because of the Unreal Engine, because, for, until the Unreal Engine hit Unreal Engine 4, I think, that was when it really stepped up a gear in terms of becoming the highest possible quality game engine. And they made it free for anyone to use. So that's why the vast majority of independent games are made on the Unreal Engine because it's AAA quality Game development tool that literally anyone can use. So as long as you've got a bit of money to buy some assets from their incredible online store, then they. then they can make it look as good as any other game. And then, so, there's gonna be, it's not like an indie game has to make their own engine, and it looks all crap. Indie games are keeping these big developers on their toes and there is a good trend of new games being released at 50 pounds like Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 all of the PlayStation re releases on PC. So it's an interesting thing happening with the way that games are spending their money at the moment and it seems good

Alex:

We'll keep our fingers crossed, Matt, that this is a trend that will grow from the ashes. But yes, thank you both for sharing your stories of news for March. It's been a very eventful month, and I hope that everyone's enjoyed listening and watching. We'll catch a new episode from us every Thursday, and we'll see you again soon.