Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

224 - The Last of Us Season 2 – Double Episode Special!

• Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

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After two long years of anticipation, The Last of Us is back – and so are we! In this extra-long, spoiler-packed premiere special, Matt and Jem dive deep into the first two episodes of Season 2 in a raw, emotional, and fiercely analytical conversation that kicks off our brand new series.

This double-length special sets the stage for the rest of our TLOU coverage, which will continue exclusively on Patreon. So if you’re as obsessed with this show as we are, head over to patreon.com/gamingthesystem to stay with us every step of the way.

 In this episode, we cover:

  • The controversial casting and portrayal of Abby: What were the showrunners thinking?
  • Why Abby and Ellie must be two sides of the same coin – and what’s lost in the adaptation.
  • Jackson as a utopia? Exploring its scale, symbolism, and fragility.
  • The introduction of new threats and what they do to the show’s tension.
  • Therapy, community, accountability, and what Jackson tells us about hope.
  • Ellie’s rage and recklessness - Bella Ramsey’s incredible performance.
  • That brutal final scene… and what we think Joel wanted to say before the end.

From reckoning to revenge, tenderness to terror, we dissect the character arcs, worldbuilding choices, and emotional beats that make this series so powerful – and so devastating.

Moments:

“She’s like a scrappy little dog”
 “Jackson is the proof that a better world is possible.”
"In another telling, Joel would be the bad guy and Abby the hero"


Want more? This was just the beginning.

We'll be releasing the rest of the series fortnightly on our Patreon, diving further into the shifting morality, brutal storytelling, and gut-punch moments that make The Last of Us one of the most brilliant game adaptations on TV.

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Speaker:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. Today I am your host, Matt, and I'm joined by my friends Alex and Gem. Before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/gaming system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com.

Matt:

So it is exciting times because at last, after two years, the second season of the last verse has arrived. Last time Gemini had a full on conversation series going through every single episode, and we are gonna do the same this year, but with a slight twist. This first two episode conversation will be coming out as an hours long special for free in our normal channel. But if you want to hear what we have to say and think on the rest of the season, you'll have to go onto our Patreon, which is patreon.com/gaming the system. So that's where the rest of the season will be. So to start off with, we'll start from the beginning. The very first scene, I believe, is actually Abby and her friends at the hospital around the graves. First off, I want, uh, it's a shame to start on a negative point. I think it's terrible cowardice that they didn't get a really bulked up actress to play Abby. I think that was such a cowardly move. They didn't even make her. She's good, but they didn't make her bulk up in any way. She doesn't resemble Abby in that way.

Jem:

no, I agree. And that was definitely one of the things that like came up for me straight away actually, because. Even aside from her sort of physical size and fitness levels, she's more delicate. She has more delicate features she's shorter and everything is smaller I am disappointed in, in the choice. I did go, did go hunting online because I was like, well, did they choose her? And, I've got a quote here, so, um. Druckman the co-creator obviously, uh, said that we would've struggled to find someone as good as Caitlyn to play this role. Because it's more about the drama and I think that's their, their focus. And a quote from Craig Mazen and another co-creator is, that there is an amazing opportunity here to delve into someone who is perhaps physically more vulnerable, but whose spirit is stronger. So I think there was a real focus on the emotional story behind Abby, and perhaps they felt that if she'd been physically bigger, that that would've been less obvious. But I feel that there must be thousands of talented actors out there who, are not. The classic idea of pretty, or her, bulked up a little bit who could play that role. I remained to be convinced that she was the right choice.

Matt:

Yeah, at the very least. They should have got, she had two years to bulk up. And from the sounds of it, they decided on her very quickly to be the right choice.'cause uh, apparently she was Nathan Drake's daughter in Uncharted four. So they, they, they knew of her, they know that she's a very good actress and that they wanted to work with her and to not get her to do anything. She,'cause the, the problem is that she needs to be the other side of the coin to Ellie in every way because they are both have violent hearts as the, the pedophile cannibal said in the last season. And I, oh, you're right. I think delicate is the right word.'cause I, I think when the problem with a lot of, when they get women to do. Action scenes is they don't choreograph in a way where it looks like you could push them over. It looks like you could go up to Abbey and just sho and she'd fall over. Whereas with gay Abby, you wouldn't go anywhere near her.'cause one thing, her hands are fucking massive. And if someone's got massive hands, you don't, you don't screw with them because they're, they're just, they just look like they're ready to beat the shit out of you. And ellie, the, the point of Ellie is that she's the one that does everything fueled, everything is fueled by her inner intensity. And'cause she's, she's really skinny, she's really small, and she's the one that goes through and goes through this entire city hunting for. Hunting for Abby and you think, yeah, it makes sense that she can do that because of the, the, the amount of violent intent that she can have. Whereas with Abby, you're meant to go. She's she's, she's got, she hasn't got that. I dunno if she hasn't got it. She needs that physical power in order to do the things that she wants to do, whereas Ellie just needs the intent.

Jem:

Yeah. And Abby's supposed to be military, you know, there's supposed to be that military background. The point is, is that this is five years later that she's found Joel, Obviously in that first scene was just after everything had happened, but she's had five years of being focused and being driven they had to justify her size, her bulkiness it in the game because, there was people who didn't like that. But the, the justification for it then was that she is driven by this need for revenge and so she, it has like trained herself up to, to be able to do the task that she wants to do, to find Joel And so it makes perfect sense because she comes from this military background and I think it's really strange. It is not strange that they necessarily chose this actress, actor. I don't think that's a problem. Yeah, why not get her to bulk up? Just a little bit, bit just, just to have done a couple of like bicep curls or something. I mean, I know I'm not, I'm not in a position to like judge anyone else's fitness levels, but this is a character who was striking for their visual appearance in the game but it isn't just that because there's a scene, when Abby and her friends are in the, lodge relatively near to the beginning of the first episode. She's talking to one of the guys in the group and she's almost asking for his approval, which again, sort of I felt undermines the fact that, that Abby doesn't. Give a shit about their approval. She wants them there because she needs people to help. And I felt that came through later. There were more times later on in, certainly in episode two, where she pushes back against them. But it was just in that first episode, I was like, why is she deferring to this guy he is just part of her gang. And it felt like, is she the leader or is she, at that point it felt really unsure, so I just felt like, are they going too far down that route to making her too vulnerable, too submissive

Matt:

yeah, definitely. It's that, yeah, that, that delicateness, that feeling of

Jem:

Mm.

Matt:

the, as soon as you, as soon as you, I remember so clearly the first time you take control of Abby in the game, she just jumps down from something and all of a sudden she's this great big hulking back and you go, Jesus Christ, I've never seen anything like that before. And she is reckless, will come onto the, the recklessness of particularly Ellie is really interesting. Because, uh, we'll get onto that in a moment. But the recklessness of, of Abby, Abby knows that she can kill clickers with her bare hands if she needs to. You, you take one, you just take one look at her back and you go, this person can probably like you, you just go, they can probably deal with whatever happens.

Jem:

press a lot.

Matt:

Yeah, it is. Yeah. And you just, it's less likely. If you look at, like any man, if you look at, see, see a man that was built like she is, she'd go, oh yeah, her walking off into the, into the forest in a snowstorm on her, on her own. And of course, why would she bother with that? Whereas this one,

Jem:

Mm

Matt:

she, she's as reckless going out in the snow like that. Um, but it just feels like, it feels like they're indulging her. They're, they're going along with what she wants, but then. Owen.'cause of course Owen, he looks like a fucking douche bag. Just like he is in the game. He's the worst character. He's the, he. It's everything is his fault. And'cause they're, they all, they all go along with, with her, but none of them believe in it as much as she does. It's like they want to, which is, and all of it is. So I have no idea what they're going to do and how much they're gonna change when they get back to Seattle because of the, the way that they've built up the, uh, the dynamic between these characters and the things they say, um,

Jem:

Yeah. And the fact that they're telling, they're telling Abby's story upfront. I mean, in the game it, it comes out over time. So you, you meet this person and you don't even know why she, she does what she does to Joel. It just happens and you dunno who she is or what, you know. It's, it's a lot of what happens doesn't come out until later. They have said that one of the things is that they wanted to create more empathy with the character. and and I get that because, you know, it was horrible to play Abby. And we knew, well, I knew when I played the game, what Abby was going to do. So when I ended up having to play her, that's hard because like, I like Joel and I don't like what happens to Joel. So you feel like, you feel almost like you're betraying Ellie by, by playing Abby, by, by having any kind of connection with her. But at the start, you don't know that, you don't really know who she is or what's going on or anything. So they, they've, they've kind of told the story a lot upfront and I think that's quite interesting as to how, what impact that's going to have going forward.

Matt:

Yeah, it feels, yeah, it does feel a bit rushed. It feels like a bit. We've learned a bit too much perhaps so quickly. But then that just, that gives them, that gives them a more, they can tell a different kind of story going forward if they, if they reveal this earlier because Yeah, it is just, it's, we, we have no idea what the shape of the next,'cause they, they said that the, the, the story of the second game is gonna take two seasons to tell. So, and we're, we're still in Jackson in the second episode, so

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

it'd be interested to see what their plan is. Yeah.

Jem:

So with that in mind, what did you think of Jackson? Because in the game when, when you have the, five years later, it just basically flips to it and you're just Ellie and Jackson and so you see it all from a ground view. But in the show, you do this panning and you see this bustling town. So, you know, it was very different, kind of gave you a, a. Broad of view of, of the, of the setting. How did that relate to your memory of it in the game?

Matt:

This is part of it where then them being able to expand into it and see it from a different perspective, they have done so well.'cause in the game you are, you are restricted to Ellie's, it's Ellie's third person view. You only see the things that you can go past. You've got horses, you've got dogs. It looks, it just looks like a functioning community. And, but in this, we see that view, but then we get to see Joel in his, his element, which is he's a contractor, that's what he knows how to do. And he's there in his office with his glasses on doing stuff. And uh, the first time you see him, I think is when Dina comes in. And Dina, they, they fucking nailed Dina that, that she just comes in and just shines and just, you just want to go. Oh, I bet she's great to hang out with. She's lovely. But she's also really clearly, really sharp because all the way through the, the tension between Joel and Ellie is so, it's so hard to watch.'cause you just want them to hug and go. Yeah, it's a bit fucked up, but it, but it'll be okay. And we see Joel in, oh, it's so, it's so good.'cause we see Joel in the place where he knows exactly what to do. He knows exactly what's happening and he's, he's able to, to do something to fix it. He's, he's fixing the circuit board at the start and then he explodes explaining it extremely well to Dina and he's in the office later on going, right, we need to build this, we need to fix that. We need to do the pipes. The pipes. I'm terrified of those fucking pipes. I have no idea what the mushrooms in the pipes are gonna be.

Jem:

No, that's, that's all new, isn't it? That none of that was in the, in the game. But I've got some thoughts about that. I'll come onto, onto that. Not specifically the pipes, but the, the, but the what happens to Jackson.

Matt:

Hmm. Oh, it's so cool. Um, and, and then, uh, Tommy comes in with the kid and Joel is just, loves this kid so much and the kid loves Joel

Jem:

I know. That was lovely, wasn't it? Yeah.

Matt:

and he, he, he says, we should, maybe we should stop bringing people in. And then there's that, that, that slight edge that he's always got of.'cause we know that him and Tommy have done horrifying things in the past, horrifying enough that Tommy left Joel and to have them come back and have this, him being in this place where he's got that edge to just consider that, but then he pull, he's able to pull back from it. And that's because Ellie has unlocked that human. The, the, the human part of him that he had to crush down because of, um, his, his daughter's death. Um, and then we see the, the other extreme of Joel where he has no idea what to do. His emotional side of him first. Talking to Dina, opening up a little bit, and then the therapy scene. What did you think of the therapy scene?

Jem:

It didn't go how, how I thought it was gonna go for a start. I mean, she kind of comes out with this like, oh, by the way, and you killed my husband and I hate you for it. In the party scene, there's the, this guy who makes a homophobic, slur. At, Ellie and Dina at the New Year's Eve party. But the next day he apologizes to, to her in a very genuine, actually, I felt was a really well acted scene. But anyway, so he apologizes to her and then you've also got this scene with, Gail, where she says to Joel, you come in here with your shit and your crappy problems and you've just got a teenage daughter. Being a teenage daughter. Now we know that there's a lot more to it. Obviously Gayle doesn't know, and at this point in the story, we don't know why Ellie is being behaving the way that she is. And then she's like, you put my husband down and I know you had to do it, but it. I hate you for it. And then she says, but I'm ashamed of that. And now that it's out there, now that it's out in in the world, it has to be dealt with. And I can start making amends. I can start dealing with it. Which I mean, there are so many layers to that whole thing because of course she's saying. She's, she's underlying the whole thing of the story, which is that there's this secret that is picking everything up for Joel and Ellie The lack of communication, the relying on anger. Basically she's laying out the story for us in that initial, in that like tiny little scene. And I think most people won't realize that until they get to the end of it, or if they've played the game, because, you wouldn't know at this point how, how, key that is. It's a technique for writing when a character. Basically does that, lays the story out it's a way to kind of put that idea in there, get you in the right frame of mind for, for what you're going to see.

Matt:

Yeah.

Jem:

think it was done really, really well, but to, to link it back to the other, the other guy, I just felt that those two scenes, along with how bustling Jackson is and how big, I mean, it's massive compared to the one in the game. It was like four times the size that I imagined Jackson to be. I just felt that all of those things set this idea up that Jackson is an example of the, of all the good in humanity of people working together, of people, um, wanting to be better, wanting to be good, which is a great backdrop for this drama that plays out, which is all about revenge, all about violence, all about hurting people I think it's a, a really interesting kind of juxtaposition, but I think Gail's conversation with, with Joel was inspired. And the more I think about it, the more, the more, I, I think it was very, very clever actually.

Matt:

It is just, it's such an unconventional way of approaching a story like this, whereas the, in the, in the game it is, I say, I remember saying very clear, and I've thought this since I playing it, a couple of conversations would've solved all of this. If they'd said to Joel, if they'd spoken to Joel and Ellie before, before they took her into surgery, if they, they should have, or they could have just shot Joel and then everything would've been fine if. Abby had just said to in front of Ellie, oh, he killed my dad. Or these tiny little bits of dialogue where we gonna been, oh yeah, it could have been fine. And this, she's just going, oh yeah, just, you just need to rip this open and say the, the, the unspoken things and then you can start dealing with them. And because they don't rip these things open and do the unspoken things, that's why all the bad things happen. And it's, I was found, so it was Seth, the old guy who called them both dykes, which is that, well, I remember that being like a slap in the, in the, when I played it.'cause just outta nowhere going like that. And I remember the, then

Jem:

it was such a romantic scene, and then that happens and it, you know, that's, yeah.

Matt:

it was so, yeah. And that, that was will come on, will come onto that dance scene as later.'cause then that just, the, the chemistry between Ellie and Dina is. They couldn't have chose that more perfectly. Um, it was fascinating when,'cause I remember the game, uh, Mar, I can't remember her name. The leader, um, forces Ellie to go and take the sandwiches from Seth. And Seth says, sorry. And she says, yeah, okay. We, we will remember her we'll, we'll we'll remember her at some point. Um, and he just goes, yeah, okay, I'm sorry. She goes, yeah, okay, that's fine. And then they go their separate ways. But this, it, it seemed, it felt like s had done that the night before. Gone to the therapist. The therapist had ripped this open and gone. Yeah. What you did was fucked up, wasn't it? And you did that in front of everyone and you did that'cause of something, something to do with you. It has nothing to do with them. And it felt like he did something that he wasn't happy with. He didn't quite understand why. Now he understands why. And it came through in that performance. He really felt mortified that he did that and he felt terrible that he, that he said that to them. And again, that is ev. It feels like everything else in Jackson is working overall. a place where something happens and it gets resolved as part of the C community. And.

Jem:

Yeah. And that they're people who want to work together. They want to make things better. They recognize that they are better together, which is in juxtaposition to the hurt people, hurt people thing going on with the main characters, when I was thinking about this, one of the things that came up was that, Jackson is supposed to feel like home and safety to Ellie. supposed to represent that, and it, clearly does but do you think that the, size of Jackson being so much bigger do you think that will, that undermine that safety, that it represented in the, in the game.

Matt:

I think that the, the way that they're, they're showing it this in, in this way, is to provide undeniable proof that things can be better. There is a way for things to be okay on a larger scale because it's okay. Things can be okay in a short com in a small community for a short amount of time. And then you see somewhere like the, all the places that they went in the first game and then Seattle in the second game. Just these dystopian nightmares where everything is bad and it's only gonna get worse. And then people like Ellie and Abby can go, well this is the world we live on, live in. It's a world of eye for an eye revenge and violence and bloodshed. And Jackson is just there going, yeah, we're, we are fine. We can, as we find out in the second episode, they can survive the most extreme thing that can happen. It'll be difficult, but they're able to do it. Um, and then that's just gonna make what happens later on. Much. Worse because we'll see out there. There could have been, there could have been another way. Um, right. So we've, we've gone for nearly, nearly half an hour without talking about Ellie. We'll start, we'll talk about Ellie, her first scene. Uh, well, we, we have the, the, the scene from the end of the last season where he says, where she says, he says, oh, I've told you the truth. And she says, okay. Um, and then the first scene we see of her is beating the shit outta that guy who's like a foot taller than her.

Jem:

Yeah, that was an interesting start, wasn't it? Because yeah, I was kind of like, what? What she doing? It was quite a long scene before, before it's clear that it's, training.

Matt:

Yeah. It was very, uh. Yeah, I was just thinking, well, what, what the hell's going on? And she actually looks like she could probably take, take him down. I thought they, that's, that's the way you need to have someone who is so much smaller than ever because she knows that she's never gonna be big. She's not gonna get any taller and she's not gonna get massively strong, but she just wants to be able to feel like she can take on anyone that comes along. Um.

Jem:

She's like a scrappy little dog, isn't she? That's really how I see Ellie and certainly, certainly Bella Ramsey's. Ellie, because she's a little bit, more cutesy than, Ellie in the game. I think, a little bit smaller than El, a little bit more fragile than I, than I think Ellie in the game is like young Ellie, Bella was spot on for, but the older Ellie. But I think Bella has managed to carry it off brilliantly. I think they've, they've done such a good job with the role and it's really impressive.

Matt:

Yeah, I think the, I think the, the, the range, the emotional range that we see from TV show Ellie, is, it's'cause it,'cause it doesn't have to be action and fighting all the time. You, you do get to see that when she is softer, she's much softer. Like when she's with, when she's talking to Dina, she's normally still got like that wall up, but she lets it down a lot more when, when she's with. When she's with her, when she's with her friends, it's very, very sweet. Um, but how reckless she is is so disturbing because she says that Jesse says that, oh yeah. If he hadn't pulled that punch at the start, he would've knocked you out in the first punch. And she has this false sense of strength in lots of ways, as is shown perfectly. When, uh, I think it's in the first episode when Diener and Ellie go into that, uh, supermarket

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

and they think, uh,

Jem:

through the roof. Yeah.

Matt:

and finds this, that stalk was horrifying and.

Jem:

Do you remember was the stalker in the first ga? I remember that scene from the game, but was the stalker in it?

Matt:

No, the stalker came in much later

Jem:

I hated the stalkers. They're so horrible. But yeah,

Matt:

and it just,

Jem:

that. I do remember that ga, that that scene in the game.

Matt:

it just showed that they're not ready. They are not safe. They are not, they are not ready for everything that the world can happen.'cause that's the way Ellie feels, says, oh yeah, I'll be fine. And she got bitten again.

Jem:

Mm.

Matt:

And that's just proof that something she didn't expect happened and she lost.

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

If she'd been anyone else, then that would've been, it would've been over.

Jem:

Yeah, that's a really good point to make actually, about her recklessness. I mean, they, they'd already said, oh, you went off and you did this, and you did that, and that's why you can't be in this, thing. But a lot of the focus seemed to be more on Joel worrying about her and her being annoyed about that. But I think you're right. I think the, how reckless she is, how careless about herself and her own safety, she is, I think is also, they're also setting that up quite well. She doesn't have a death wish, I don't think Ellie has a death wish at any point in from the games. But she also doesn't have any, any sense of, of life preservation. It's like she just, I. She just doesn't care. She cares about the people that she cares for, but her own life has little, seems to have quite little value to her. What do you think? Does that come from a, arrogance that because she doesn't have to worry about getting bit, she's fine. Or does it come from a, she's got nothing to lose. She's got nothing. She's got, she, well, she's got a lot to lose, but she's, but if she goes, she doesn't, she doesn't recognize the value that she might hold to other people.

Matt:

Yeah, I think it's, it's such a, she doesn't know where she belongs. And knowing that she's the only person in the world who's immune, I can't imagine the impact that that would have on, on you. So I think that feeling of, she doesn't have much to lose. She doesn't think she has much to lose. But then when she, when she's angry, she doesn't think as much. And when she's on her own, she doesn't think very much. And it really felt like she needs, she needs her friends around her to hold her, reign, her in to, to be the voice of reason that allowed, that holds, that that will keep her safe enough and to stop her making the most extreme decisions. Whereas when what happens, the next episode happens, we'll, we'll go into what happens when these people who are, who are meant to be the voices of reason become the, the like the people, like Abby's friends where they go, oh yeah, we want the same thing that you want and we'll help you get. That should be really interesting. Um, hang, was there anything else in the first season in, sorry, in the first episode, you

Jem:

Joel and, and Ellie start to work towards patching things up in the game before what happens at the end of the second episode happens. But in the show they didn't have any of that. I was thinking about does that make it more or less traumatic at least in the, at least in the game, there was an element that they were. Trying to sort things out, but as it stands in the show, Joel thinks that Ellie's angry with him, but doesn't know why. And, it's left very open

Matt:

Yeah. The, the one thing I I, I really like of what they've done is that, so in, in the, in the game, you don't find out that the very last thing that happened between Ellie and Joel was them making up on the, on the porch. And then that's why she can't let it go. The, the, the first thing we, we see with the, with two of them, like the big thing is at the dance when she, he pushes set out the way and she goes, what is wrong with you? I don't need your fucking help and that properly. And you go, that's the last, that's the the last thing we see before Joel gets killed. And

Jem:

Okay.

Matt:

so, we. We, we don't fully grasp why Ellie is on this path of vengeance. It's because after five years and all the stuff that we've seen, they finally went, oh, they both went, oh yeah, we are gonna be okay. And Ellie goes, I'm gonna be okay. Me and Joel will be gonna be okay. And as long as we are okay then that's, that's the thing that she can't, she'll take care of herself so that she doesn't lose that. And at the start of the next, well, we'll move on to the second episode now'cause this is quite a good smooth transition into it is when Jesse comes to, uh, take Ellie to go out on patrol, uh, this is a fascinating decision to swap the patrol pairs up to what they were in the game. And Ellie. Uh, is Jesse saying, right, you are gonna go with this person?'cause I thought you might want to avo avoid Joel. And she goes, you know what? I'm just gonna go with Joel. And you go, Hmm. And then she, and he goes, oh, are you sure? And he goes, look, the Joel's Joel, I'm me. That isn't gonna change. Our stuff is complicated, but we're gonna be okay. And that's not something we find out until the very end of the game.

Jem:

No, that's true. Yes. I'd forgotten about that.

Matt:

Hmm. Yeah. And, uh, that was, that's the, like I think in the show, knowing that at the start is a much better place to put it in the plot because we need to just like with the problem with them doing the same thing with Abby right at the start as well, it. Sort of puts them on evil, like mor even moral ground right at the start. Whereas in the game for the first 12 hours, all you know about Abby is that she's violent, aggressive, reckless, cruel, vengeful, spiteful, uh, there was another word, just her. Oh, it's so brutal. Joel saved her. He goes, I saved your life. He literally ran up, picked her up, saved her. That's what, and, and all we know is that she took all of that and then she beat him to death with a golf club. And so we hate her.

Jem:

yeah,

Matt:

'cause we've spent the entire first game with Joel. And also his Pedro Pascal. That makes, that, adds a huge amount to

Jem:

all love Petra Pascal. Yeah,

Matt:

Um, and so, yeah.

Jem:

Yeah. So it was an interesting choice, really. Yeah.

Matt:

Yeah. So, um, so we, so we know that Ellie at the start is going, oh yeah, everything's gonna be fine. It's not fixed, but it will be okay. And she goes, I wanna go and spend time with Joel. And the somehow, just like with, did you, did you watch Chernobyl? They just, that, you know, that radiation is terrifying, that crackling of, uh. Of a Geiger counter is just a, you can just hear it going up and up and up and up and up and up the entire, sorry. I hear some hammering outside the entire time of the first episode, it felt like that Geiger counter was going up and up and up and up and up and up and up, and you have no idea what's gonna happen. You have no idea what's gonna, who's gonna say what?

Jem:

No.

Matt:

And I, listening to the podcast of the two show runners and Troy Break talking about it, they described the therapy scene as an emotional action scene. It's not physical action, it's this going, whoa, people fighting emotionally.

Jem:

Yes.

Matt:

So it doesn't have to be action. It's just got this, and this episode even more so, the, the, the mentioning of the, the infected hibernating

Jem:

Yes.

Matt:

of them pouring out of places. The fact the, the, the mushrooms in the pipes. And did you, did you say you had a theory on that? You have a theory on the mushroom pipes?

Jem:

Just really about the threat to Jackson. So we were talking about the size of it and whether that would make it less of a safe space and less of that sort of safe haven that it's supposed to be. Because it's so big, it's, it's safe. It's like 100% safe. But actually, by throwing in this stuff going on in the pipes and the hoard that just, comes running at it, none of which was in the game. Those things. I think a showed, as you said, the preparedness of these people. The fact that they only get through it because they all work together and there's no kind of backstabbing that you get in the walking Dead and stuff constantly, so they work together as a team. They all do what they're supposed to do. The people that are supposed to go in the basement, go in the basement, the people that are supposed to go on the roof, go on the roof. And yes, there is a moment where a couple of people, leg it, but I don't blame them. And I think neither did any of the people in the scene. It was just an example really of how the town can work together and how working together. Yes, it was awful. Yes, obviously lots of people died, but I. They survived it. And I think that, that they'd added these things in is there to provide a little bit of, anxiety over the safety of Jacksonville. The fragility of this more positive future, I think

Matt:

Yeah,

Jem:

us and unsettle unsettle early as well.

Matt:

Hmm. And another thing I think that having this extraordinary siege of all the infected does this, this massive battle where they, they had a, they had an incredibly well thought through plan. They knew they all had jobs. They all knew exactly what they needed to do. They had, uh, fire to push over the edges. They had plenty of ammunition. And even with all of that, they barely survived. They've had all this time, all this time to prepare. They had the plan and. They barely survived. And Ellie fighting that stalker didn't survive if she didn't, if she wasn't immune. Immune. And,

Jem:

Mm-hmm.

Matt:

um, the, one of the most awesome bits from the first game that they, they got even scarier was, um, the, when Abby's being chased by the infected and she gets trapped by the fence and is just crawling along and going

Jem:

Oh my God, that was horrible. Yeah.

Matt:

Yeah. Um, and she, she was, she would've died there without Joel appearing. And saving her, Joel, seeing someone who needs help running over to them despite there being a hoard there and picking them up and saving them. And the, the mushrooms in the pipes and the stalker and the, what this does is makes it clear that the world is viciously dangerous, viscerally, it can kill you so quickly, it can overwhelm you so quickly.

Jem:

Mm-hmm.

Matt:

Whereas I think in the, as like with the Walking Dead, the, the, the world is like, it's a force of nature and sometimes that world sort of gets. Push the peripheries a bit'cause we're focusing on what the humans are doing. And because this is such a, the, the three main forces in the gamer, Ellie, the wolves and the scars. And it's very easy to forget that this terrifying world is as ever present and ready to pounce on you as as it is. And that just made it so much more, the stakes, so much, so much higher.

Jem:

Yeah, they laid it out really clearly as well, didn't they? Because they were like, here's the threat from the infected, here's the threat from the mushrooms, things, which I guess could grow spores and stuff inside the, the town. And then also, here's the threat from the natural world, in the form of the storm. That cut them all off from each other, physically was, was a harsh environment and put them in danger. Beyond what the infected might may or might may not do. So yeah, I think they laid all of those threats out really clearly One of the things that was thrown at the game was that some bits of it were a little bit slow and that the story was slow at times. So I think they are working to. Correct that within the, within the show and, and to keep that pace moving. But I think you're right. I think they've, they've added in things that were not in the game, but that they have underlined and underscored a lot of the elements that are important within the game and that are, as you say, easy to forget. So I think they did that really well in that, in those scenes.

Matt:

Yeah, it feels like everything, every extra thing that they've included so far has,'cause we know what's gonna happen generally the big plot points. So we knew that poor there. I was making notes as I went through and I just wrote, and it happened. I just wrote new Joel, firstly, uh, I appreciate the, so in, well, we'll see what we think about this. We'll start with, so it's Dena with Joel. In this one rather than Tommy.'cause Tommy's back at the camp and so we are seeing, Dina is pretty similar to the way she's in the game. So is Jesse. But Tommy is completely different and I'll be interested to see how they, if they approach the way that they all leave to go and find Abby.'cause it goes, Tommy goes, then Ellie and Dina go, and then Jesse go. So they're all walking, them not working together is what causes them to fail. Um, when they could have all just gone at the same time. Um, but that was just sort of plot armor stuff. Um.

Jem:

By setting up the town to be in more danger than it was in the game, it might provide a good explanation as to why Tommy doesn't go looking for Abby. And also his motivation in the game was obviously he was there and he didn't stop it from happening. But obviously he wasn't there. And had perfectly good reasons for not being there and, and not being able to do anything. So it's almost like, they might end up with Tommy not going out at all.

Matt:

Yeah.

Jem:

I dunno how that'll impact the rest of the story. I can't remember the details enough. I thought I would, I thought I'd remember of the details it more recent that I played the game, but I.

Matt:

Yeah, I think what is, so one thing I appreciate in terms of realism is that they, when they, they, so when Tommy, uh, in the game it goes, him and Tommy go in and they just stood there and then, then Abby shoots Joel in the leg, and then they knock out Tommy. So the last thing Tommy saw of his brother was hurt him getting shot in the leg. And then he gets knocked out. And what they've done is they, so they've got Dina there, and instead of knocking her out, they give, they give her a sedative. And then when Ellie's on the ground, they. Kick her in the face and knock her out in the game. Whereas this one got a brutal kick in the, in the, in the ribs.

Jem:

Oh no. I hate it when they do that. I can, I always feel that.

Matt:

and I, I appreciate when something like you can incapacitate someone without them getting knocked out, because the, the, the, the amount of brain damage that happens when you get knocked unconscious is mental. And in so many games people get knocked unconscious constantly and it just doesn't make any sense.

Jem:

Every five

Matt:

Every five minutes it's mental. Um, so in, in this version, Tommy isn't there, Dina's asleep and so no one sees. What Abby does to Joel, and we don't see much of it at all either. We just see him get shot and him falling to the ground is horrifying. And the way he's moaning and screaming is horrifying. But no one's there to see it apart from Ellie. And Ellie only sees the end of it. She, so all the stuff that we see and hear from Abby that explains so much, we don't see any of it. She literally just sees, and then all Dina knows is that we saved, we saved her, and then they put a gun to my head and knocked me unconscious, and then I wake up and this has happened. so we'll start. So that's, so that's the, that's how that scene starts. What did you, what did you make of that, that period from them arriving at the at the lodge to Joel being shot

Jem:

When Joel says, fucking just get on with it, just do it already.'cause she's like going, oh, I've waited so long for this, and she's doing this sort of big Machiavellian style. I think I felt the same way because I knew what was coming and I was just like, I just want to get this out of the way because I found it. I find the whole thing really horrible and I, I gutted that they killed Joel off because, even if he wasn't gonna be like a major character in the game, I would've really liked him not to have died. And I, I understand that it's what was needed to set Ellie off on her, on her rampage. However, I had a couple of thoughts about it. One was that Joel had five good years in, in Jackson. Uh, you know, he, he would not have made it if Ellie hadn't come into his life. If he had not saved Ellie from the hospital, then he would probably have died relatively quickly because he would've just felt so guilty about it. It is sad that he died. However, he actually got five years on his life that I don't think he would've have had otherwise. So I actually felt like, well, maybe it's okay because he got more time because of his relationship with Ellie, and he wouldn't have had that if, if he hadn't done what he did, which pissed Abby off. So that was one thought I had. And the other thought that I had is that in another story, told by, in another way, Joel would've been the bad guy, and Abby would've been the good, the good guy, Abby would've been the person that we were playing because the, when she tells it and, and although they're telling it earlier, they haven't really changed the story. It is what happened. So the way that Abby tells it, he just goes in on this rampage kills all these people, shoots this defensive stature in the head, and then legs it with the cure to the world's, biggest problem we understand the reasons why he did it, obviously, but even Ellie doesn't appreciate what he's done, even she has issues with it. On the other hand, you know, Abby does torture him and that's not the behavior of a good person. And so, yeah, maybe she isn't the good guy after all. Earlier I said about how Abby's authority was un undermined a little in the first episode. But in that second episode, the group that are with her are uncomfortable about what she's doing and they're asking her to hurry things up She's very clear to put them down. She's very much no, we're doing this my way, and you will go along with it or else. Obviously it's just gutting when she shoots him in the leg and he just goes down and when she says toay him, and you just think, yeah.

Matt:

Hmm. It's a, again, I remember thinking this all the way through, like the games and the seasons and that e everyone's right and everyone's wrong for the reasons of you just said. He, he took the cure for humanity and the last person who could probably get, who could, probably the scientist who could do it and killed her dad, and then got to go off with his daughter and have a happy few years, and then Joel saved her. He didn't have any idea who she was. He, and he saved her without thinking, and we love him. We know what he's been through. We know what happened to his daughter and that he couldn't have, he couldn't let that happen again. One thing that I remember thinking when we, when we talked about this. At the end of the last season when Joel goes through his rampage of killing all those people, and

Jem:

mm.

Matt:

something about, she says, you killed 18 men, 18 soldiers and one doctor. And I remember thinking that killing 19 people to save Ellie and it being 19 men, it's easier for us.'cause that's what we've seen forever in film and TV and everything. The only people who who die in combat are men. And so we get to the end of that and we think, well, you could, Joel can still be a, a good person on the right side of things and have done that. Whereas if he'd, it would've been an extreme thing and a very upsetting and unsettling thing if he'd shot those two nurses as well. Because in the game, you, you can kill the doctor in two ways. You can shoot him, or if you try and walk past him, he attacks you with a knife and you kill him with the knife. And then the, the nurses just stand back. And what would've been really interesting was if the doctor,'cause uh, Joel just shoots the doctor in this one. And, and that's a lot more like clean and clinical. There's nothing personal about that. It's just the way he did it with the other ones, if he'd gone there and thought, right, I don't need to kill these people. I just need to get Ellie and go. Um, and that's,'cause that's a point. He's, he'd stopped there. And the fact that you can try and walk past and then it forces you to kill him, shows like that. Joel didn't want to do that. There's a part of him that didn't want to do that.

Jem:

Yeah. Yeah. But that doesn't come through in the show, does it?

Matt:

And the, if the doctor and the two nurses had attacked him and tried to stop him and he'd killed the three of them, that would've been the thing that Joel does that is truly unforgivable, that is beyond the pale. That would be the hardest thing to maintain. It is just, it's inexcusable, but it is still understandable. And it, he'd have done it and it would've been just part of his story. Um, and then he would've, he really would've deserved being beaten to death for, for that. Um, and I just feel like Abby hasn't, she hasn't, we're supposed to be terrified of her and I. Her having this monologue of explaining everything makes it, it, it lessens the impact of it a bit and then her physicality comes back into it again. Because I don't know if you've ever seen anyone who's, who doesn't play golf and is really slight, try and swing a golf club there, it, it doesn't look very, like, very brutal if you, and uh, that might be a reason why they didn't show as much of it. You just hear it.'cause in the, in the game, Abby, it, it looks like it weighs nothing to her. And, uh, iron Golf Club irons are quite heavy. And,

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

and, uh, yeah, so I.

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

The shot in the leg is brutal.'cause you think, I remember the game thinking, how's he gonna, how's he gonna, because it blows his knee off. You think, oh, how's he gonna come back from that? He's just gonna wrap it up and then he'll, he'll magically be fixed. Um, and then, oh yeah, him screaming was horrible and him going. Another thing about Joel is the, as we've said, the, the emotional depth and intelligence of him is much more apparent. And in the, in the game, he's very stoic and just goes, yeah, get on with it. He's not scared. He never looks scared. Whereas in this, when Pedro goes, which you just shut the fuck up and get on with it. He was scared then. That really came out of him going, he's not just s stoked there going, well, I'm

Jem:

did. He was shaking, wasn't he? Yeah.

Matt:

uh, and that was just really horrible. And then Ellie point where Ellie comes in and comes through the door and then is, uh, pinned down onto the ground and we see Joel in pretty much the exact same position he was in, in the game. This bit is,

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

in terms of the way it's set up in the game is exactly the same, but it's, and the words, uh, the similar, the only thing that's different, which I think is really interesting is she kills him by stabbing him in the neck rather than hitting him in the head. Um. But it feels like, like, uh, it's an old, it's an alternate universe of a different way that this same scene could happen because it feels like even though the words the same, the actions are pretty much the same. The way it's performed is completely different. And how did you, how did you feel the two scenes compared to each other?

Jem:

Yeah, I think you're right. I think they're very subtle differences that just, just tilt it a little bit. In the game, I very much felt that she had tortured him, that she had taken a very long time to kill him in the show. That didn't come across as much. Um, so I think that the wholeness with which the whole thing was played out was, was lost a little bit in the show. Makes me wonder if they're just moving fully away from that.'cause they've set her story up so much and that they're moving away from this cold, Abby and, and more to the Abby that we learn about towards the end of the game.

Matt:

I wonder, again, this is a really odd thing'cause she goes, everyone agrees that there are some things that are just wrong and that is, uh, like killing un un like killing on on people of kill who can't defend themselves. Whereas we know that the stuff that we see her do in Seattle, which is when she thinks right, Joel is crossed off the list, everything's back to normal. The things she does there, there is no correlation between there being a code of, of some things are just wrong. And one thing I thought was, uh, really interesting was when we, when Ellie comes in and we hear, we just hear what's happening. Abby is screaming and out of control doing that. And we just feel there's, I feel a real hypocrisy coming, coming from her in a much stronger way than I, than I felt in the game at the start. And so I wonder what that's gonna end up. What,

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

what how they're gonna portray the other things that they do. I.

Jem:

It will be interesting to see how that that pans out actually, for

Matt:

Uh, and then the worst bit and the best bit, uh, Bella Ramsey's performance as she's pinned to the ground. And Pedro Pascal's performance managing to do so much when he can't move. Just lying there like that. And it,

Jem:

lifting slightly when she was saying, get up, get up. And he just lifted his head, didn't he? Just a little tiny bit and I was just like, oh.

Matt:

yeah, I think that was the point where in the game you're thinking, oh, it's, it's over. There's no, there's no coming. He can't recover from this. And Ellie. Again, going from that, the softest softness that she was, the softest she's she'd been, and the most vulnerable she'd been that we've ever seen, and the most terrifying and violent and aggressive that we've, that we've seen all within that scope of things going from, please don't do this. Please get up. Fucking get up. I'll kill you. You're all gonna fucking die. And Pedro just being, uh, Joel, just being there on the floor, just watching that happen. Um, yeah. And I, the one thing I think is interesting about why, why Abby would've let Ellie live, because she's just done to Ellie, what Joel did to her. Yeah. And she knows that she spent the next five years trying to find him and then to be him to death. So you'd think that her watching and listening to Ellie do that, she'd she'd And because Abby, if Abby was big and strong, she'd go, I am. I'm only capable. And she sees Ellie and she sees this skinny little scrappy dog. She goes, oh, it doesn't matter. I recognize this anger and rage that you feel and you're expressing, but there's nothing you can do about it'cause you are all skinny. Whereas this version of Abby would look at Ellie and go, right, we are pretty much a similar build. I'm actually smaller than she is.

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

And you'd think she'd go, oh, she's gonna be a problem. We better offer.

Jem:

She doesn't know who Ellie is at that point. Does she? She doesn't know that Ellie's Ellie's relationship to Joel. She doesn't know that it's basically the equivalent of what Joel had done to her dad or any of that. I agree. But, and clearly one of the, one of the gang, one of the guys wanted to, to kill her. He was trying to beat her up,

Matt:

mm

Jem:

um, but he was being stopped, wasn't he? By? Was Oh. And he was stopping

Matt:

Yeah.

Jem:

The rest of the group didn't want to kill anyone else, did they? Because they were, that was the whole thing. Like when she said, if you tell me the truth, I'll let Dina live. And they were objecting to that So I guess that's the other reason that the others, that they, they had just come to do this one thing.

Matt:

Mm. And yeah, Abby's recklessness is her undoing and just the way Ellie's reckless, this is'cause they could have spent the next.'cause there was a storm. They could have spent the next few hours talking to Joel and talking to Dina, and then Ellie would've appeared and they could have talked to her as well. And then they would've had, they would've known that it was Ellie and she was the one who was, uh, immune. Then they could have killed Joel and Dina and then taken, they could have taken Ellie back to Seattle and, and she would've found out just by chatting to him for a bit. And, but because Abby's so reckless, she needed to have it straight away.

Jem:

yeah,

Matt:

and, and interesting. She goes, I saved your life. And she says, what life?

Jem:

yeah.

Matt:

That didn't feel like the Abby from the game. It felt like Abby. Abby had purpose. She had the place where she belonged. She liked doing what she did.

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

That's the final question for today. When Joel is on the floor and Ellie's there screaming at him and shouting and being that entire spectrum of who she is and Joel's looking straight at at her, what do you think that Joel wants to say to Ellie in that moment that he's not able to say'cause he can't speak?

Jem:

I think he probably wants to say, let it go. I think that's what he would say to her. He would say to her, just let me go, because he'd had those extra five years because of her, and she's the most important thing in his life, and he would not want her to go off and risk her life. Trying to avenge him. And she does. And, that's the heartbreaking thing that, this completely ruins everybody's lives. And it's so sad.'cause Joel had a, a good s in this, in the world in which they live

Matt:

Mm.

Jem:

and I think he would've just said that he loved her and to, to drop it, live her life,

Matt:

Yeah.

Jem:

go hang out with Dina.

Matt:

That's the, yeah, that's the thing. I think he's looking at Ellie and going, she's going to destroy herself. He's seen, he sees what the beautiful things, the beautiful life that she could have. Because just like with Jackson, we see things can be okay. Someone like Joel can have a good, beautiful life. It's possible. They've got the recipe for it. They just need to choose to walk that path. And Joel's been choosing that. And Ellie hasn't, Ellie is pursuing a path that will take her to the way that Joel was in the 20 years when, after his daughter had died.

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

That's the, that's the path that he sees, that she's walking down and Yeah, I think, I think you're right in that moment. Yeah. He just wants to go. I, I love you. You are my daughter. I love you so much. I just want you to just let it go. Just, just don't, I think he's just going, just don't, just don't, just don't. Please don't. And he just, he just knows. And, and we see her. And Dina would've gotten together just like they do in the, at the end of the second game, she, she would've found someone to spend the rest of her life with there. She would've made music and done art and built things. And we, we see in Joel has seen that that's what's possible. And he just sees it. That it's, and he, I think he looks at Ellie and he knows that she's not, she's not gonna choose that life that he wants for her.

Jem:

no.

Matt:

And then he's, he's gonna blame himself because, and ugh. Yeah. And then them dragging and her getting kicked in the stomach go, that bit was heartbreaking. And you just feel that the other, the extra extreme of that and the, the stabbing in the neck was, felt so much more visceral.'cause it allowed them to go into that. Like the sound goes away when she stabs them. And you said, oh yeah, that's that. And then we just see them dragging his body unceremoniously

Jem:

Yeah.

Matt:

back to the burning town.

Jem:

I did actually really like the way that she just turned round to look back at it. I thought that was just a really nice little, yeah, really nice touch. Yeah, that was, that was sad.

Matt:

And it is only getting started. Um, but yeah, this was, this was really fun and I really enjoy this and it's exciting and I'm looking forward to the further conversations we're gonna have about it. So.

Jem:

So let's check us out on Patron.

Matt:

Mm, yes. So if you want to know more, we will be continuing as we go along. Probably fortnightly we'll release, uh, to our. Uh, feedback on the each two episodes and then we'll probably have a, an extra big special one for final. Um, but all that is to come. What's gonna happen with the mushrooms? What's Ellie gonna do? What's Abby gonna do? Ah, it's all exciting and scary. So we have been Matt and Gem and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.

Jem:

Bye.