229 - Allyship in Action: Lessons from In-Game Allies - Part 01

Exploring Allyship in Gaming: In-Game Companions and Real-Life Lessons

In this episode, we dive into the concept of allyship, examining what makes an ally in the gaming world and how those lessons can be applied to real life. We discuss the different types of allies, from NPCs and animal companions to trading allies and equipment. Examples from games like Fallout New Vegas, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, and more illustrate how allies contribute to achieving goals. We also explore the dynamics of allyship in cooperative gameplay, particularly in MMOs like World of Warcraft. Join us for an engaging discussion on building teams, achieving goals, and the intricate relationships between in-game characters and real-world solidarity.

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Transcript

Matt: 0:45

Look, this week we are discussing allyship, what we can learn about allies in the gaming world and how we can transfer those lessons from our in-game experiences to the real life.'cause that's what it's all about. It's about building a team, choosing a goal, achieving the goal. And that is something that gaming is the very embodiment of because we are always, we're always the main character. We always have a job to do. And most of the time you need other people to do it. And if you don't necessarily need them, it'll get you to your, your goal faster. And it's just, it's a complicated thing that only the bad guys in the real world seem to have worked out how to do serious solidarity and. And like cutthroat ness. But it's, I think it's harder when you are on the progressive side of things'cause you care about people and it's harder to, it's harder to be as cutthroat as you can be in gaming, I'm, I'm sure we'll come into that as we, as we go along. So the first question is, what is an ally in a game? What counts when you are, when you are plowing your path through the game, what do you think? This person is? My ally, who wants to go first?

Jem: 2:26

I think that I think that it's basically an MPC who generally supports where your, what your goals are who probably shares your views on things, but mostly is going to. Shoot things for you or point you in the right direction or provide you with gear to help you get through the game, or provide you with advice and knowledge and power. So something like a friend or a work colleague or a partner, somebody who's, who's there? Yeah, somebody who's got your back. That's what I think.

Alex: 3:19

Yeah, I'd agree there. Definitely. I was wondering whether it might also include people like traders traders who give you better rates than other traders maybe. And there are other types of characters where, which involve monetary transactions, which I'll get onto for a later question. One of my most favorites but I'll come back to that. But yeah, I mean, it could be even a character who's there for moral support encourages you on your quest. It gives you like positive encouragement. but yeah, I think it could be any number of different things. That's what's so interesting about lots of different game genres as well.

Matt: 4:01

Yeah, I like to think of it as, yeah, an NPC who aids in achieving your goal, and it makes it sound quite like a simple thing oh, it's simple. You, you build a team and you work in one direction and you achieve the goal, but obviously it's much more difficult than that and. Depending on how well written the game is, the relationship between you and allies is, could be really, like, it doesn't need to be anything other than there a functional thing for you. Like, I've been playing Fallout New Vegas, and I completely, by came across one of the companions and he's a sniper. just found, as I was walking through the wasteland, suddenly a, a bullet would ring out and, and any of mine that I hadn't even seen yet would be dead. And I've just, I've, I've just been wandering around having him going, this guy is awesome, being incredibly useful and. But there's also his, the quest to get him is that he, you have to work out what happened to his wife and it turns out his wife was kidnapped by slaves. And you go, oh, you are, you are so useful. I want to go and I want to go and pursue his goal, which is saving his wife and will come on to companion quests and, and the like of that as well. And so, but before we get onto that, Alex, you mentioned there the, the form of allies that, that can be taken, there can be traders that sort of thing. What are the common types of in game allies and also kind of ally do you find most compelling?

Alex: 6:09

That's such a good

Matt: 6:09

Hmm.

Alex: 6:11

so there's obviously, like I mentioned, there's people that will help you with transactional things. So traders, there's also, when you think about it, you can have animal allies. So if you think about the Assassin's Creed series, very often you've got your eagle who will scout out an area for you, provide you a bit of information in terms of where your enemies are, what type of enemy they are what, resources are as well. So like if there's a chest that you might want to get or a key that you need to find, your eagle can spot it for you. It can find mission objectives. So basically you use it, your eagle to help you find your next path through the game. You've also got companions these could be characters or they could be just MPCs or non playable characters. There's a slight difference when you think about an ally. And then also you've got a types of quest where you would feature companions. So you, you could have an escort quest. And that's a slightly different'cause I think in that. of mission. Sometimes your ally is more of a hindrance than a help especially if they're very slow which is one of my least favorite types of quests. you know, they keep dying a lot and they don't do anything useful. Yeah, any, any character that can help you get out of a tight spot. It might also be a group. So again, using Assassin's Creed as an example, brotherhood had the mechanic where you could bring in your assassins, the brotherhood of assassins to come and basically kill everyone you could see. And then you could make your way through to your part without having to do so much of the killing. That's always quite fun. But yeah, or you could have someone to bounce ideas off of. Obviously it would be scripted in something like, say Uncharted, you've got Sully you've got Chloe, et cetera, et cetera, to, for your character kind to kind of flesh out conversation and build up plot points and that sort of thing as well. So they can also be used as a device to further the story or to deepen the, the law of a character as well, and, and help you get to know your playable character a little better well.

Jem: 8:35

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all of the, all of the above. I just, I just thought about in Rayman you have one of those ones you had like a little, I can't remember what it was, like, a little spray type thing that used to be able to go and trigger things for you. And there's a couple of games where you have that kind of thing that, so that can sometimes be played by another person, but isn't a fully playable character. It has, has a very specific role and I think that's quite an interesting form of, of Ally because they're not fully. They're not, they're not fully autonomous. They don't do their own thing all the time or whatever, but they, they have, they are essential to the, to the game. And you can't, you can't achieve your goals without them supporting you. I think that is probably a key thing for allies, that they are essential to your, to your journey. I think you've got things like, you've got the sort of found family ally, the sort of, you know, Carla would probably fall into that. List. There's also I was also thinking about the idea of sort of allies that maybe aren't allies, not like false allies, but ones that you have an uneasy alliance with, that you join forces with because you have a shared goal for that, for that relatively small amount of time. And then you might go your separate ways or they, they, they might not be somebody who you would always want to support or want to help. But I, I can't, I, I had a thought about an example, but I've, it's just escaped my brain. So if it comes back to me, I'll share it, but I, I also think yeah, like in Boulder's Gate, the dog, I can't remember his name now, but he, he was really, yes, scratch. I think he's an ally and. Even though he, well, actually he did have a really good purpose and a really good benefit to bringing him out with you because he would sniff out secret loot and things. So that was always, but it was always good to have him there. And also he would provide another target for the, for the enemies. But you didn't have to worry about him dying because he would literally just pop up back at camp. I think he just ran off if he got, if he got killed. So, but I think he was also there as moral support and, and to create a, an a, a positive atmosphere back at camp, which I think is also what allies can do. They can provide you with a bit of, of an, an emotional boost. And when the game can be a bit

Alex: 11:38

Hmm.

Jem: 11:39

tough, either because the story is tough or because the, the. Challenges are tough. It's nice to go back and talk to your friend or your dog or your horse or whatever. And I know people who play games just for the pets that they get in them, but for the, for the joy of that. And I would say that they are also allies. So I think it is a very varied category really.

Alex: 12:12

just thought of another one actually. From Star Wars Jedi, full order and Survivor. The little droid that you have on your shoulder, is it BD one, the bd and lights on the back tell you like how much health character has left, which is really useful. But also he's really handy for like opening doors and scanning. He loves to scan to give you law about the world as well. And he, he's just really cute and chappy and you can chat to him he goes, B, b back to you. And it's, it, it's so, he's so cute. I love him. He's like a little, he is basically like a little dog or cat on your shoulder, but enjoyed form he like crawls around. He can go. Jump off your shoulder and, and tell you to come and look at something and different things like that. But yeah, that's definitely another form of ally there as well.

Matt: 13:04

I think pets are the, the purest form of ally you can have.

Alex: 13:08

Yeah.

Matt: 13:09

they're not gonna work with you unless they care about you. And the, the best pet, I think probably in the history of gaming is fria in God of war.

Alex: 13:23

Yeah.

Matt: 13:24

That was beautiful, but God, God of war. The, the, we did an entire episode meal acts just about the animals in it.'cause the animals are such a, you can tell that literally everyone, everyone in the studio must have had pets in order for them to portray animals in this way. The critical thing for me that I think is the most important area for us to explore and consider is that ally, the ones who it's, it's easy to be an ally to someone like Karlak. It's hard to be an ally to someone like Minha or,

Jem: 14:16

Yeah.

Matt: 14:16

or any number of,

Jem: 14:18

Okay.

Matt: 14:20

yeah, any number of any, any number of, any number of people who we wouldn't want to spend time with, but would be very, very useful against a common foe. And that's a, that's a particular type of Val that I really, I find really interesting. Because in Boulders Gate three, they're all forced together by the, the worm in their head, and none of them know exactly what to do. Some of them have got ideas and you just decide, well, well, and you can decide to go on your own, of them go And the fact that you, you have to save Lael first, makes a, makes an impact to her, and you save shadow heart and the'cause. What we need, what we need to know is how do we get everyone that can fight alongside us, alongside us? And the, I'm going to bang on about union stuff again, is easy to talk to people who are on the same side of you who agree with you. The hardest thing is getting the people who disagree with you lots of things, board for. The, fight, that's the most difficult

Jem: 15:45

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 15:49

I think you can also have weapons and equipment as an ally, think of it like that because this has, this really came from in God of war in, when they're in the god of war, red rock. There are berserkers who are basically like the Valkyrie, the Valkyrie mini bosses from the first game. And they're all people that MiiR knew and hated. And he, he was on this, this was meme's, vendetta of revenge and hatred. And Kratos was going along with it too.'cause he, he could see, he could recognize that MiiR needed. This was a, a path that MiiR was on that he needed to walk down. And basically, comes to the, the realization that he doesn't want to kill all these berserkers because of revenge. He wants to, because they're, dangerous and needs to be dealt with to protect people. And then the final bit of the quest, one of the, the best bits of writing, and it is you get the, the hilt of the sword that belongs to the, the head berserker, who's the most evil berserker ever. And Retos says, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use this. We're going to add this to our arsenal. And Meir says, but what about, what all the horrifying thing this sword has done? And he says, and Kratos says, the history of this sword is still being written.

Alex: 17:35

Hmm.

Matt: 17:36

So from this point onward, just like with him, just like with the blades of chaos, it's reached a point where it's, right now they're in the right hands going towards the right purpose. And if we can apply that to people, that's the way forward. it's also an issue with the feminist movement is how do you get men on board, which is'cause men speaking from personal experience, we have a lot of shame we have a lot of things that we're not proud of. And the worst thing that could happen is to go, oh, I want to help and go, you disgusting thing, get away from me. That's, that's tricky. But I'm sure that, I'm sure that'll bleed into the conversation as we go along. Right. So this, this part is not about our favorite characters yet. We're not moving on to that quite yet. We're looking at what makes a character go. I, I am glad that this person is alongside me in this. What makes you go right? Why would you choose, if you've got a selection of people to choose, why do you choose them? And if you are to have them, like in a more linear game, like in God of war or in of Us, what makes you go, oh, I'm better for having this person along.

Alex: 19:07

that they would, they would basically die for

Matt: 19:09

Mm-hmm.

Alex: 19:10

probably a good starting point. I think my main inspiration for that part is probably Lydia from Skyrim who did die for me, and then I relayed it'cause I was sad that she had died. yeah, I just really liked her as a, as a companion character, because she just was like super loyal. your character for, for some reason just, just kind of stuck by you, gave you like lots of positive energy and stuff. She basically, when you talk to her, she'd be like, yes, Malu, I'll do, I'll do anything for you. And you're oh, alright then I must be good. And you'd kind of go on like that. Well, although having said that, Lydia does have two sides to her where she does get involved in combat, she's often not always very effective and kind of gets in the way and you can end up killing her by hitting her you know, she's just in your way a lot. So there's kind of two sides to Lydia as an effective but also ineffective ally that sense, in the combat sense at least. But the, the loyalty I'm on board with for sure yeah, a sense of loyalty from an ally is, is good from a, from a Sky Rim esque type game, would say. I think a companion or an ally that has skills that your character doesn't have, but that you need it also is really useful. Like, this is gonna be a random example but one of the Willis and Grommet games Willis could do certain things and grommet could do other things, and you had to get grommit to do certain things to be able to move on to next areas. obviously Wallace was taller so he could jump higher and, and that sort of thing, from what I remember. But yeah, I think characters that compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses are, are really good to have on board. Yeah, that's all I can think of for now, but I'm sure Jim has some other examples as well.

Matt: 21:15

I had be interested, gem, also what you are, you are the only person with a MMO

Alex: 21:23

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 21:24

Here. So, and you used to be a tank, didn't you, when you were playing. So I was wonder, I wonder what your, your experience with in-Game Allies being other people was like as well.

Jem: 21:38

Oh yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. Well, I mean, thinking about. NPC or playing player character allies. I think that it's all about the bans. It's all about the, the, the, the conversation. That's what I really like about my allies, that they're, that you're gonna have good conversation with them, that they're gonna chat to you as you potter about in the game. Because I think, as I said, you know, they can be there for sort of emotional support to make the game more fun, to lighten up the heavy moments, to give you insight. And I think that that's one of the things that I really enjoy and I really like from an ally. And that's what makes me say, yeah, you know, I'm really pleased I brought this, this character along with me. I'm really pleased I chose this character. Obviously complimentary skillset is also useful, but you know, if I'm thinking about it in addition to all of that, then yeah, it's the pants. In when you're talking about sort of actual people as your allies in the game. Yeah. Reliability and consistency is essential. And you, if you are raiding in a, in a guild, you are doing sort of raiding on a big MMOI mean, we did 25 people raids and you needed every single one of those 25 people to be fully engaged with what you were doing and, and on board with the, with the game. And I think that. One of the problems was that the, you know, if people just didn't turn up or people didn't do what you'd asked them to do, or they didn't commit to getting the potions that they needed, or the armor that they needed for the, for the raid or just, you know, for the dungeon or whatever you were doing, it lets everyone else down. And, and you do, you do have that kind of, ugh, you know, that. And I was really lucky that in the end I had a, a really good group around me of people who were really committed and they all wanted to get. You know, to achieve and to do well and to support each other. And we had very few disagreements over things like,'cause one of the real sticking points in those kind of scenarios is who gets the loot at the end of the game because you have a one set of gear at the end and obviously there's limited amount of whatever. So, so it's how do you decide who gets that piece if you, if, if more than one person has it? We came up with a very complicated system, which was real involved being based on how many. Raids you attended and how important your, that particular role was to the group. So if your main character was the tank, then you would get priority on tank stuff over somebody else who it was their second role and things like that. So there was, there was a lot of that involved, but that sort of took away the conflict. But again, having people that are prepared to recognize that this is team game and you all have your part to play and you all have to commit to that and engage with that really helps. And when you have spent five hours dying repeatedly to a new boss, having people that are. Consistent and friendly and engaged is essential because, you know, there's nothing worse than at three o'clock in the morning and everyone's tired and everyone's grumpy and it's like, you know, we've just gotta do one more go. It's somebody either quitting or just not doing their role. You know, I mean, we have people falling asleep.

Alex: 25:53

Wow,

Jem: 25:54

We had all sorts of stuff, you know, but it, it was really, it was it. Yeah, those are the sorts of allies. You want people that are fun to be around and committed and engaged with it, and take it as seriously as you do or as not seriously as you do, depending on the situation.

Alex: 26:14

That's very true. Yeah.

Matt: 26:16

how did you in enforce the dispersed of the loot? Was there a, a mechanic in the game or was it trusting the honor of your allies?

Jem: 26:32

There. I think there was a, only the person who did the final blow could access the li, I can't remember. There was, there were, there were some in-game rules about it, like it depended on who'd done the most damage or whatever, but it might have had something to do with that. The party leader had the, had had access to the loot and then they would dish it out. There was definitely something to stop people just coming in, because I know there were scenarios. In the early days where people did just swoop in, steal it and, and go. But again, you've got social control going on there because then what you say is, you know, if you're not committed, you can't be in our, in our gang. You can't be in our raid. And if you are a good raiding guild, which at the time we were, then you, you know, people wanted to be with us. They wanted to go with us'cause they knew that we were, that we were successful and they knew that they would eventually get what they wanted. Whereas if they just went with another random, with random groups, which of course they were. People who would just pull together random players that happened to be on the server at the time, you always had a far, far lower chance of doing anything with them because you didn't have that level of commitment as they weren't good allies

Alex: 28:07

Hmm.

Jem: 28:08

in that, in those groups. So yeah, you do rely on people's good nature.

Matt: 28:15

It's so, it's, it's so challenging to, I didn't realize raids were that big. I thought it was only like 4, 4, 4 people. So,

Alex: 28:24

of people.

Matt: 28:25

yeah. And.

Jem: 28:26

Mm-hmm. Well, they had on, on World of Warcraft, if you did a like a normal dungeon, it would be, it would be about four people for that. And then, and then they had 10 man. Unfortunately 10 man and 25 man, but let's say person raid. So yeah, you could, and, and certain, depending on the, so the, the loot that you would get in a 10 man raid was not as good as the loot you would get in a 25 person raid. So it, it was it was kind of worth doing it. But yeah, 25 people all on vent is which was the used to be the voice chat system is, yeah, crazy.

Matt: 29:12

I definitely agree that the commitment, everyone being equally committed to something, is absolutely critical to consistent success because if, if it's based around one person being the driving force, then if that person goes down, then everything goes down. Whereas you need

Alex: 29:41

Hmm.

Matt: 29:41

people bringing different, we've all got different levels of energy. It's like what? What we do if one of us is having a bad day, then the other two step up, then when that person's feeling good and then someone else is having a bad day, they step up and it's not one person. If one person has a bad day, then everything goes back and that. That commitment is vital.'cause you need to know, like, like if you're on a, on a rage and if you are right, if I die, the others will come and avenge me and then they'll, they'll heal me and we'll carry on again. And then, that, yeah, that camaraderie, like, and I definitely agree with bans. The bans are a vital part of it generally because when I play RPGs, I tend to play them on easy mode'cause I'm more interested in the story that makes the companions actual impact far less important. So I focus on the characters that I, I enjoy their company it's such a, so I'm thinking Boulders Gate three. And Dragon age probably the two best in terms of banter between, it's not just banter between the character and'cause sometimes the character doesn't speak. The banter between the two, the other characters between, between your companions is so ripe for, for wanting them to be around. a particularly fabulous line from Dragon age two is there, there are videos on YouTube of the compilations of all of the dialogue between the different companions as you go around. And one of them is Isabella and Avalon and Isabella's, this saucy pirate, wench and Avalon's. This buttoned up always wearing armor, captain of the guard They, they just roast each other constantly Isabella, Isabella calling Avalon big girl, and calling her a trumpet. And Avalon, I think Avalon says, oh, I invited you to our party, to our engagement party.'cause she's getting married. Isabella says, oh, I didn't think you'd want to be there. I said, well, I, I invited you. Why didn't you come? And he said, well, what about when you have kids one day you can't have them. They'll be going mommy, what's Arum pit? And Avalons goes, and Avalons says, I'll just point over to you. It's just, ah ha ah, it's so good. But there's, there's this wonderful undercurrent of, they do like each other really. They take the piss out of each other and they get angry with each other. But there is that. That, that soul underneath. I think the, the perfect, well their best written companions are the ones that you, you would have them in the party just'cause you like their company and they are useful in a particular way, they're not all powerful. I remember I didn't like a stallion very much when I first met him, but he, him being an assassin was so useful. you could literally send to in, send him in to start each battle, have him sneak in, and then have a massive critical hit on someone.

Alex: 33:34

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 33:34

And then you're off to the races and then, and then you learn about him and then you want to him like a scared puppy. And then there are characters who. Are extremely useful, but I don't like them at all. Like Gail, he was really, really powerful, but I insufferable.

Alex: 33:58

I tell you what to do with some of the ones you don't like as much. If most of the builders gate characters have very deep pockets in that you can use them

Matt: 34:06

I,

Alex: 34:07

stuff in their inventories. So I was doing that quite a lot with companions i'd la I'd leave at camp, I'd be like, send to gay, or like, send to la you just have all this stuff that you'd pick up that you didn't wanna. Encumbered with, but you could send it to people at camp or so very handy in that way as a storage closet essentially in human or otherwise form. Hmm.

Matt: 34:35

I had like to go and find all the, the most disgusting, magical items to feed Gail.

Alex: 34:42

Yes, yes,

Matt: 34:43

Like a, like a goblins, pair of pants.

Alex: 34:48

hunger. Yes.

Matt: 34:51

God, I, I hate him so much.

Jem: 34:53

Are you very mean about my husband?

Matt: 34:55

sorry.

Alex: 34:55

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 34:57

At least I like your real husband. I think it would be, it would be worse if it was the other

Jem: 35:02

True.

Alex: 35:04

Yes.

Jem: 35:05

That is true. Yeah.